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On August 28 2010 17:55 Silu wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 16:15 5unrise wrote: - Terrans not using orbital energy is much more forgiving since they can still mass mule, get the money (they only lose opportunity cost), and still be ok b/c TvZ is defensively strong. - But zerg's larvae inject, if you miss it, you end up not having enough units against the high pressure Terran and it could cost you the game. Can't believe people are still repeating this old punching bag. It's only looking at half the picture. If the Terran unit production is not constantly ongoing, you miss on the max number of units you can churn out. If the Zerg extra macro mechanic is delayed, you miss on the max number of units you can churn out. If the Terran extra macro mechanic is delayed, there is no real harm done. If the Zerg unit production is not constantly ongoing, there is no real harm done. See a similarity there? Of course the Zerg macro as a whole is much more APM-intensive but directly comparing inject larva and mules is just dumb and takes away from the credibility of the whole poster. Looking forward to the qq-crowd going "but the Terran doesn't even need to be constantly producing units to autowin Zergs!!1"
lol u clearli don't play Zerg, so please refrain from posting about Zerg mechanics. If Zerg misses production cycle we ALSO lose out on max units. Larva stops auto spawning after 3... ie, after every inject larva.
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+ Show Spoiler +On August 28 2010 17:18 Qzy wrote: I feel sorry for the zerg - but really... Protoss has the only problem with scouting VERY early game. We don't know if the T is going 4 rax, or 2 rax.. We don't know if he's fast expanding if he's putting up bunkers in front of his natural expo choke.
It takes TIME to get observer out, and even if you go robo bay, you might be in trouble if he's rushing max rax. You have overlords early game - toss has NOTHING until observer comes out. Even hallucination can't be researched until gates are done.
So... what happens behind those free bunkers he's putting up? Is he going MASS rax? Or fast expanding? ] although this is true, protoss has the ability to block off their base and prepare a counter whereas if a zerg fails to scout he is going to get destroyed.
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On August 28 2010 20:09 me_viet wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 17:55 Silu wrote:On August 28 2010 16:15 5unrise wrote: - Terrans not using orbital energy is much more forgiving since they can still mass mule, get the money (they only lose opportunity cost), and still be ok b/c TvZ is defensively strong. - But zerg's larvae inject, if you miss it, you end up not having enough units against the high pressure Terran and it could cost you the game. Can't believe people are still repeating this old punching bag. It's only looking at half the picture. If the Terran unit production is not constantly ongoing, you miss on the max number of units you can churn out. If the Zerg extra macro mechanic is delayed, you miss on the max number of units you can churn out. If the Terran extra macro mechanic is delayed, there is no real harm done. If the Zerg unit production is not constantly ongoing, there is no real harm done. See a similarity there? Of course the Zerg macro as a whole is much more APM-intensive but directly comparing inject larva and mules is just dumb and takes away from the credibility of the whole poster. Looking forward to the qq-crowd going "but the Terran doesn't even need to be constantly producing units to autowin Zergs!!1" lol u clearli don't play Zerg, so please refrain from posting about Zerg mechanics. If Zerg misses production cycle we ALSO lose out on max units. Larva stops auto spawning after 3... ie, after every inject larva.
me_viet is wrong, but not for the reasons you pointed out.
I don't know the exact numbers, but inject larvae basically boosts your larvae production by something like 20% (that number is totally taken out of the air, might be more, might be less) and M.U.L.E.s also boost the Terrans mineral income by x%. So comparing the bare numbers, they are not that different. That is where me_viet is right.
He is wrong however, in that he doesn't consider the fact that with mules, the Terran has the possibility to even out his income capacity over a long time. You can miss out 4 mule cooldowns, but if you use all 4 directly after they become available, when they all disbatch after their runtime, your overall income for the last x minutes will be the exact same as it would have been if you used the mules on every cooldown. The same goes for your unit production capacity. When u use all 4, you will be able to produce more units in a shorter time period (you can also use your minerals for tons of other stuff in that time period), but in the end you will have the same amount of units overall (that is assuming of course that you have to stop to produce units some time because you can't afford more without a mule. if that isn't the case, a mule doesn't give you any production increase anyways). Chrono boost mostly works the same way by the way.
With inject larvae, you can't do that. After you miss one cooldown, that's basically it and you can only use that mana for creep tumors and transfusion (but usually players have a third queen for that). You could burn the mana by building additional hatcheries in your bases and inject 2 at a time, but that would cost us 350 minerals + mining time of the drone.
Inject larvae is clearly inferior to MULEs and also chrono boost in terms of skill needed, no doubt about it. But in my opinion, it makes up in numbers for that. MULEs only boost mineral income by a relatively small amount, while the larva production is increased by a big % (I said 20 as an example but I think it's more like 33%-50%).
If you want a simple fix for mules, then simply make it so that they can't mine while SCVs mine anymore. Make them queue like SCVs, but slightly increase the rate at which they mine (not the amount). That would still get some use out of them if you use all 4 at the same time, but there should be some pretty big diminishing returns because of that.
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On August 28 2010 16:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 16:54 PeRk wrote: Zerg can't force Terran to do anything early game, baneling busts are too easy to beat at high levels of play. Roaches I suppose COULD do some damage but with a solid wall in, it's beatable, and if the roach rush fails how far behind economically are you now? My post was fairly tl;dr so I assume you didn't read it, but the short version is: zerg made three roaches and then macro'd up, but without a lucky scan seeing what was hatching, I had to assume he was still making roaches and thus reacted in a way favourable to him. The damage is done by forcing the terran to act predictably without investing much in the force. But but... if you only make 3 roaches and then just drones and the T masses marauders to prepare vs mass roach, don't you lose to the first timing attack?
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By the way scouting is fine I think, even at T1, on MOST maps. But some maps have so insanely big base platforms that the Terran can hide building well so he can kill overlords before they see anything.
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Will you people seriously just not stop whining until our race is completely overpowered?
We don't need e-z-win, thanks. Zerg and Terran have different strengths and weaknesses, and expecting us to be on par with THEIR strengths without them being on par with ours is just whining at this point.
I know it's fun to hate on Terran and all that, but this has to freakin end. Start 5RRing or variants thereof to both scout and force T down certain tech paths.
Our biggest problem right now is the overall lack of innovative zerg play, and if we patch our awful play into parity when we DO start figuring things out zerg will be absurdly OP
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On August 28 2010 16:58 Nightmarjoo wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 16:54 PeRk wrote: Zerg can't force Terran to do anything early game, baneling busts are too easy to beat at high levels of play. Roaches I suppose COULD do some damage but with a solid wall in, it's beatable, and if the roach rush fails how far behind economically are you now? My post was fairly tl;dr so I assume you didn't read it, but the short version is: zerg made three roaches and then macro'd up, but without a lucky scan seeing what was hatching, I had to assume he was still making roaches and thus reacted in a way favourable to him. The damage is done by forcing the terran to act predictably without investing much in the force.
I just assume you not very good. Because playing vs a zerg that does 3 roaches and techs after cant be a very solid zerg. Unless of course you had a fac with a reactor or massed reapers.
Its a big mistake and costs you alot of eco and whatnot to build a roach warren and 3 roaches before teching vs terran. A good terran could simply exploit that fact and win the game with the huge eco advantage he just gained there.
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On August 28 2010 21:55 RampancyTW wrote: ...
Will you people seriously just not stop whining until our race is completely overpowered?
We don't need e-z-win, thanks. Zerg and Terran have different strengths and weaknesses, and expecting us to be on par with THEIR strengths without them being on par with ours is just whining at this point.
I know it's fun to hate on Terran and all that, but this has to freakin end. Start 5RRing or variants thereof to both scout and force T down certain tech paths.
Our biggest problem right now is the overall lack of innovative zerg play, and if we patch our awful play into parity when we DO start figuring things out zerg will be absurdly OP
Umm you really haven't addressed anything I was talking about, and instead just brought up cliches with no substance at all. So, how do you counter the different terran builds without knowing what is coming? How does "innovative zerg play" going to change that. I mean it is all good to try and evolve strategies yourself, but bringing what is in my opinion the issue at stake is also important. How do you know I haven't been trying things out too. And how is this whining? I've given consistent evidence/ explanation for everything I said, its not like this is completely non-objective rubbish. So, if you want to criticise, please actually refer to what I said, rather than bringing up old cliches. Bringing us on par with their strengths? You mean scouting I presume, so can you please kindly explain how the issues I mentioned, with regards to different openings, can be solved any other way? How do you "force" T down certain tech paths? Do you have a build which is autoloss for T if they don't react properly? I'm listening
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I know it's fun to hate on Terran and all that, but this has to freakin end. Start 5RRing or variants thereof to both scout and force T down certain tech paths.
For your reading pleasure
Apply early pressure to force either a defensive mindset or at the very least reveal T's build
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I think all the Terran Imba calls, are resulting from this one mechanic, the scan.
You can read in nearly any RTS's community pages, the most important thing for a player to do/learn is to scout effectively, knowledge is power. This can be proven true by the presence of map hacks in RTS's, this ultimate (Illegal) scouting tool means almost autowin.
A walled off terran base with a few missile turrets is almost impossible for either P or Z to scout, meanwhile the terran have many options, scan being their best. Hell they even have an uber Overlord, wich has 5 times the hitpoints (1000 hp), travels twice as fast, available just as early as the zerg version and you get all this for 50 extra minerals, (150 vs 100), it's name is: "flying barracks".
I think because of the importance of scouting, all 3 races need the same level of scouting, either: terran loses its scan ability, wich means they'll have to fly over, ghost in, sacrifice units etc etc like the rest of us. this will also provide more avenues for alternatives strategies against them like, cloaking, hallucinations, burrowing etc.
Or we could have all 3 races with a "scanner sweep" type ability, the protoss could use a Psionic type ability that reveals an area through the use of warp technology and the zerg could use a mini nydus worm that emerges from underground to provide vision for a short while.
Implementing the above would i think provide the balance everybody is searching for but can't seem to put their finger on. See the problems other races have with terran aren't that, tanks or reapers or cloaked banshee's or ghosts or marauders or thors or hellions are OP or imbalanced, the trouble is once the wall is up any one of those units/builds can come knocking on your door and P or Z will struggle to see it coming and be prepared, meanwhile T has scanned your base, your army, any FE you might be doing, will have tried to get a scan on any hidden tech etc etc. not to mention the loss of high ground advantage, when terran pushes with a well timed scan.
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On August 28 2010 22:25 RampancyTW wrote: I know it's fun to hate on Terran and all that, but this has to freakin end. Start 5RRing or variants thereof to both scout and force T down certain tech paths.
For your reading pleasure
Apply early pressure to force either a defensive mindset or at the very least reveal T's build
Explain how to "apply pressure" early game with T's wall-off? I am not hating on terran, I am simply stating an observation, nothing to do with hate. If by apply pressure you mean attack the wall-in with lings, then you would lose them. If you leave a large group lings visible to the terran outside his wall, he'd know that you have gone ling heavy. He would make hellions, while I guess this constitutes "forcing terran" in the sense that you are just asking for hellions, when he moves out you would lose. muta is an excellent way of applying pressure, no doubt, but this isn't "early pressure" and against certain builds I mentioned earlier it is instant loss. So it comes down to scouting.
saying something like "applying pressure early" really means nothing when you don't give specifics.
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...
5. Roach. Rush.
Very specific.
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A lot of variants you can do around this template depending on what you see/your game style. I've been experimenting with early bling nest for your first lings instead of speed to take down their wall that much faster
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On August 28 2010 22:35 RampancyTW wrote: ...
5. Roach. Rush.
Very specific.
No. A Zerg who makes units and stays on an early gas instead of droning/expanding is losing. Terran just throws down a bunker or makes a tank. They don't have to go out of their way to deal with it.
Zerg definitely has a scouting issue. It's vs protoss too, though admittedly it's not as bad because protoss doesn't have the ability to tech switch like zerg does, and every protoss 4 warpgates anyways.
There's been suggestions on making overseers T1, and I'm in favor of that. What's everyone's thoughts on it?
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On August 28 2010 22:35 RampancyTW wrote: ...
5. Roach. Rush.
Very specific.
Admittedly that is a good build, but it is also risky against Terran if he has more than 2 marines behind his wall when your roach arrives. A good terran pulls scvs, which admittedly hurt his econ, but you also invested in roaches. Against today's reaper builds your first 5 roaches will either have to defend, or move to the terran wall and probably not be able to break it while your workers gets fried. What about the economy you give up? if the T goes 3 rax MMM you will not have enough to hold him off. All it takes is a scan to know what you intend to do, while you know nothing of T's reactions. would you want to blindly make more roaches?
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On August 28 2010 22:36 RampancyTW wrote: A lot of variants you can do around this template depending on what you see/your game style. I've been experimenting with early bling nest for your first lings instead of speed to take down their wall that much faster
Its called a baneling bust. It is widely regarded as all-in. Next to the 6 pool it is one of the few Zerg all-ins. If you fail the bust you are so behind in economy you will most likely lose. Most terran builds have scan out before your banelings are ready at 33/34 food, and they only have to add more/ stronger buildings to the wall to defend. This can win you games from time to time if T isn't careful, but is very much a cheese.
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You really don't need to look inside the Terran base pre-overseer/overlord speed. If you know the timings very well, you'll know what the Terran player is capable of. Watch top zerg players and you'll notice that they can get so much information just poking zerglings at the ramp.
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On August 28 2010 22:51 cr4ckshot wrote: You really don't need to look inside the Terran base pre-overseer/overlord speed. If you know the timings very well, you'll know what the Terran player is capable of. Watch top zerg players and you'll notice that they can get so much information just poking zerglings at the ramp.
So we prepare for everything a terran is capable of? If you see a rax with tech lab, what does that tell you? He might be hiding reapers, he might be hiding marauders, or he might just be making a factory inside his base, possibly followed by a starport. or just more barracks. What army are you going to make early on? one of everything? edit: I know the timings well enough that when my overseer arrives in the terran's base, his starport already has tech lab on. I can only pray that he is getting cloak as well so i can have time to prepare a response.
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On August 28 2010 22:56 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2010 22:51 cr4ckshot wrote: You really don't need to look inside the Terran base pre-overseer/overlord speed. If you know the timings very well, you'll know what the Terran player is capable of. Watch top zerg players and you'll notice that they can get so much information just poking zerglings at the ramp. So we prepare for everything a terran is capable of? If you see a rax with tech lab, what does that tell you? He might be hiding reapers, he might be hiding marauders, or he might just be making a factory inside his base, possibly followed by a starport. or just more barracks. What army are you going to make early on? one of everything? edit: I know the timings well enough that when my overseer arrives in the terran's base, his starport already has tech lab on. I can only pray that he is getting cloak as well so i can have time to prepare a response.
No, you don't get one of everything but you need a build that is flexible enough to get the right mix just in time. For example, I get 3 queens regardless of what Terran is going...every single game. Not only goes that handle a fast banshee extremely well but if also gives me the opportunity to transfuse a spine crawler if he goes for an early ground push.
Also, if you watch players like Idra or Dimaga, they build a baneling nest AND a roach warren pretty much every game but they only make heavy banelings against bioballs and heavy roaches against mass hellions/mech. That being said, make your tech stuctures but only produce the units that you need.
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