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On January 09 2012 18:36 r.Evo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 16:39 squattincassanova wrote:On January 09 2012 11:58 jjun212 wrote: Mm.. question to all the pros out there..
Is it possible to find and create a relationship with someone without all these tactics, rules, etc?
A friend of mine told me something like.. if you find something that you love, then just do it and be really good at it... People.. girls.. will notice.
Art, music, sports.. and to a growing field, even gaming.
Your passion for any of those things is already an icebreaker and an attraction. Can you get good at starcraft without learning the build orders and tactics? A lot of tactics are crutches to get you started.... but either way... you can go out and get good from blind trial and error (what naturals do, but it takes many many years), or you can go out and work at it and read materials, and know the dos and donts and get good at a faster speed. Stop trying to tell people picking up girls is hard. Stop comparing it to something as hard as starcraft. Seriously. He asked if it is possible to find and create a relationship with someone without all these tactics, rules, etc.The answer is a VERY clear "Yes" since, to my knowledge, for the last 20000 years it was somehow possible for the human race to replicate. ALL of the techniques in modern pickup are nothing more than a conscious effort to do what has been going on between males and females all along. ALL of the techniques are things that SOME people do without anyone ever telling them how to or why. Like, durp, ask your dad how he created attraction with your mom and how he broke her bitchshield. Then ask your mom if she had LMR and how your dad did overcome it. Please make sure to respond in this thread with their answers! Edit: Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 16:18 scaban84 wrote:On January 09 2012 11:58 jjun212 wrote: Mm.. question to all the pros out there..
Is it possible to find and create a relationship with someone without all these tactics, rules, etc?
A friend of mine told me something like.. if you find something that you love, then just do it and be really good at it... People.. girls.. will notice.
Art, music, sports.. and to a growing field, even gaming.
Your passion for any of those things is already an icebreaker and an attraction. Unfortunately attraction is not the important aspect of pick-up. Comfort is. And tactics are necessary to escalate physically and generate comfort. Approaches and having a regimen will help you build comfort. Attraction is much more important to men than it is to women. Mhmm... while I agree that comfort is what seperates people who are okay and people who are good "correct" escalation and comfort-generation are actually pretty straight forward and imo, best solved by a trained intution (hint: social experience) than actual tactics and routines. Like, you can throw almost any line towards me and I can find a way to spark attraction with it during my opening, but doing the same during comfort is nearly impossible. I'm working a lot with someone who is pretty damn technical when he's trying to build rapport and, imo, the more you let logic dictate this part the harder it gets. It's kinda hard to explain, but when I'm looking to build rapport actually BEING interested in the other person is pretty much all I need to fix any problems that occur. Like, simply being an empathetic human being without letting someone cut your balls off would be totally enough. Does it come across what I'm trying to say? Also I wouldn't say that attraction is more important to men than to women, this argument would prolly end in stupid theorycraft, but from my experience you can get away with a LOT of things she'd not allow any other guy if she's attracted to you. I doubt there is much difference between men and women if it comes to that. The stronger frame and mindset wins.
The definition of "hard" is subjective.
Hard for a computer programmer may not be hard for an abercrombie model. And yes, people have had relationships for thousands of years before mainstream pickup cam along.
Ultimately being better with women is a skill that can be learned. And where you want to stop depends on what your goal are. I want to be married within 5 years. But most of the girls I met havent met my expectations.
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On January 09 2012 18:51 Humposaurus wrote: Reading through this thread was fun, alot of you are just here looking for ways to score and only score, not really on how to maintain a good relationship, which is IMO far more important then picking up some random girl. Hey if you want to get laid just buy an escort, way cheaper and probally more experienced then that girl you wasted 200 bucks on just to please her appetite.
Uh, I'd actually say like 85% of the people starting with PUA started because of missing a solid relationship in the first place. Doing pickup is about enabling you to CHOOSE a women you like not end with a shitty one you just married because you were bored and lonely in your 30's. Like, my goal e.g. was to find a cool girl to have a stable relationship with. Took me about 2 years from me rolling with our Lair for the first time till I found one that I REALLY dig now. As most PUAs in relationships would say I'd agree that she woulda been into me just as much before I did pickup. However, it would have never come to the point of a relationship because no balls = not getting laid pretty much. =P
Also especially in pickup the whole "don't buy her shit" is emphasized a lot (even though buying a drink vs not buying and stuff like that is just basic common sense when it comes to it. If you'd buy a drink for a dude you knew for the same amount of time, it's allright doing it for a chick imoimo).
Oh, wow, speaking of which.. I DO have a routine that I just love to death and back. 5 questions game. Running the numbers I think I easily got drinks for like 500 euro per year out of that little thing, lol. =D
@squattin: What I'm trying to say is... PU being "hard" is your mindset. I'd bet my ass if you'd be like OKAY FUCK IT EVERY ONE OF MY ANCESTOR GOT LAID THIS SHIT MUST BE EAZ you'd have more success and learn quicker. Kinda same like teaching a kid that school is hard vs teaching a kid that school is easy. Or telling a kid that it's dumb or telling him that it DID something dumb.
Calling it "easy" usually means you can be more relaxed and more playfull which results in... yay more confidence and more skillz.
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On January 09 2012 18:51 Humposaurus wrote: Reading through this thread was fun, alot of you are just here looking for ways to score and only score, not really on how to maintain a good relationship, which is IMO far more important then picking up some random girl. Hey if you want to get laid just buy an escort, way cheaper and probally more experienced then that girl you wasted 200 bucks on just to please her appetite.
Read on up on the last two pages of the thread and this exactly came to my mind. A sex worker should also be a real option for guys suffering from severe social anxiety. If you can't get yourself that far, to make the call or approach one... well there are professional health care options for you. Anxiety is a recognised illness/disorder that can be treated by either a psychologist or psychiatrist (latter able to also offer drug therapy). Once diagnosed your health insurance will also chip in with the cost, which of course when paying a life coach of sort the money will come out of your pocket.
Someone mentioned meeting 100 or so girls online, someone else turned it into 100 lays, then doing all sorts of queer maths on it. In any case, you don't want to be that person with such a relationship history, because when being honest about to with women you want to have a relationship with, trust me, they'll tuck tail and run. Would you want to sleep with someone who's had 50 or more sexual partners? Not me. Anything more than 15 and I'm like okay... and tease them about being a skank. 20 past sexual partners and I'd have serious reservations about getting emotionally and physically intimate with said woman. Not accounting for the increasing risk of venereal disease that comes with each additional partner.
I have to say, I share sentiment with the other poster who voiced his concern about the mindset of some of you PUAs. You're so focussed and putting all your energy on getting in the door, you're neglecting the house it's supposed to lead into. Going through life and chatting up women and at best having sex with a relative stranger will not bring you long lasting happiness or a sense of self fullfilment. In any case there's an expiry date on it, like a sportscareer, how long you going to be doing this for before all your friends and all the women you have in your phone have gotten married or at least settle down? Are you going to be still doing this when you're 35? Maybe. 40? Gee. 45? you'll just be the sad drunk at the bar.
I haven't read up on much more of the whole pickup artistry but the general feel i get is still there's a portrayal of the female gender in this scene that resembles a padlock or sudoku. As long as you enter the right number and push the right buttons everything else will fall into place. Rings total BS to me. Women on a whole are more alert and perceptive than men. If you run schemes on them they're likely to be aware of it. Unless you are very smart, a talented actor and she or them are rather ditsy. So the trainers: I don't think you're doing nerds a favour by telling them women are some neanderthal-like being that just needs her ancient instincts awoken to be at your every whim. I think I could be more helpful in telling a nerd about women without spoiling them for the poor girl that might dating them. Cause that is what you are doing imo. You're taking a thoroughly young, inexperienced and impressionable you dude and telling him all kinds of illusions about girls.And due to their little experience with females they're likely to believe them.
I'm all for boosting your own and the confidence of others. I'm all for physical exercise and looking/feeling the best you can. But by promoting this notion that you have to first become a player to get over your anxiety and be able to have healthy relationships with women you're planting foul seeds in impressionable minds. It's overkill in one direction, while not addressing the core issue at all. Which is, learn to feel comfortable enough to come out of your shell. If you're sitting there and thinking it's not time to grab her hand or put your hand behind her back you're not coming out of your shell, you're being a robot reciting a routine.
Finally, nature's a bit cruel in the sense that we're not all equal. There's always going to be at least someone smarter, faster, stronger, taller or more intelligent than you. We're all good at different things. We shouldn't all be aiming to try to seduce or get the HB (hot babes as) the scene refers to them. (At the end of Style's book there was an entire glossar on the abbreviation used by the community). I thought my point is clear, we can't all get the most desirable women out there. So just fish in your local pond and you might get lucky.
Finally for those of you considering getting into this, due to their anxiety and social angst, I suggest you maybe check for self help groups around your area first. Those are usually free of charge, and maybe people there can point you in the right direction without having a financial interest at heart.
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On January 09 2012 20:59 SeXyBaCk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 09 2012 18:51 Humposaurus wrote: Reading through this thread was fun, alot of you are just here looking for ways to score and only score, not really on how to maintain a good relationship, which is IMO far more important then picking up some random girl. Hey if you want to get laid just buy an escort, way cheaper and probally more experienced then that girl you wasted 200 bucks on just to please her appetite. I haven't read up on much more of the whole pickup artistry but the general feel i get is still there's a portrayal of the female gender in this scene that resembles a padlock or sudoku. As long as you enter the right number and push the right buttons everything else will fall into place. Rings total BS to me. Women on a whole are more alert and perceptive than men. If you run schemes on them they're likely to be aware of it. Unless you are very smart, a talented actor and she or them are rather ditsy. So the trainers: I don't think you're doing nerds a favour by telling them women are some neanderthal-like being that just needs her ancient instincts awoken to be at your every whim. I think I could be more helpful in telling a nerd about women without spoiling them for the poor girl that might dating them. Cause that is what you are doing imo. You're taking a thoroughly young, inexperienced and impressionable you dude and telling him all kinds of illusions about girls.And due to their little experience with females they're likely to believe them.I'm all for boosting your own and the confidence of others. I'm all for physical exercise and looking/feeling the best you can. But by promoting this notion that you have to first become a player to get over your anxiety and be able to have healthy relationships with women you're planting foul seeds in impressionable minds. It's overkill in one direction, while not addressing the core issue at all. Which is, learn to feel comfortable enough to come out of your shell. If you're sitting there and thinking it's not time to grab her hand or put your hand behind her back you're not coming out of your shell, you're being a robot reciting a routine. Finally, nature's a bit cruel in the sense that we're not all equal. There's always going to be at least someone smarter, faster, stronger, taller or more intelligent than you. We're all good at different things. We shouldn't all be aiming to try to seduce or get the HB (hot babes as) the scene refers to them. (At the end of Style's book there was an entire glossar on the abbreviation used by the community). I thought my point is clear, we can't all get the most desirable women out there. So just fish in your local pond and you might get lucky. Finally for those of you considering getting into this, due to their anxiety and social angst, I suggest you maybe check for self help groups around your area first. Those are usually free of charge, and maybe people there can point you in the right direction without having a financial interest at heart.
I'll try and just respond to the bolded part real quick since I agree that the goal of no one should try to become a social robot who only sees laycounts and HBs and not awesome sex and real human beings.
You're overestimating how humans work. A lot. "As long as you enter the right number and push the right buttons everything else will fall into place." this actually is pretty damn accurately describing how most human beings work. The only real difference being how complicate the padlocks are.
Assuming the right amount of training (I'd say 2-3 years of 1-2h daily time investment) the ability to manipulate and/or influence others pretty much skyrockets. Just like every person on this planet has a price which can buy them every single person on this planet (diaf if you start mentioning disorders now) is a social being that wants to be appreciated and liked at the bottom of their hearts. Over time I've witnessed some pretty damn ugly stuff in the PUA scene when it comes to manipulating others into stuff they don't actually want. Am I happy that it is that way? No. However, am I able to detect and do something against it when it's happening close to me? Hell yes.
The same "material" that enables you to make important persons help you in your life or that enables you to abuse some random girls non-existent confidence to get a quick fuck... also enables you to resolve a destructive pattern that you observe in a couple that you're close to. It also enables you to, once in a relationship, find and resolve destructive patterns that would have ruined an otherwise awesome time together.
The actual material is neither good nor bad, just like a knife is neither good nor bad. It's up to the person which wields it.
This also brings me to the next point, your trainer bashing. Yes, most trainers I've seen in the field of pickup are total retards. However, most martial arts trainers I found are retards, too. It took me 5 different teachers to find a decent one for learning Salsa. When it comes to actual pickup I consider myself for example a rather mediocre teacher, but since I know my strengths and weaknesses rather well I can still push beginners far further much quicker than they'd do on their own - without feeding them bullshit about women.
Also the statement that pickup is ALL about financial interests isn't exactly true either. Taking the local lairs for an example (we're talking about 1mil people in total that live around here) I can name about 10 people who currently either coach pickup or something related like me who STILL just love to chill with new guys in lairs and help them out a little bit. Sure, if some guy asks if he can get a 1n1 coaching he's gonna have to pay. However, if I'm going out on a weekend and meet one of "the guys" and they need help or got a quick question I'll help out.
Especially lairs usually have a very strong community and are a strong foundation for someone who wants to get better at certain things. Do they have total jerks as well? Yes, sure. Is anyone forcing you to go out with them? Nope.
Finding cool people in the PUA community is just like everywhere else: You look at what they want, how they work and decide if you want to learn from them or not. As a rather basic example, I'm pretty sure both squattin and me would be people who'd respond to a PM with a question - however you're most likely to get different answers from each of us. That doesn't necessarily make one side right or the other wrong.
I thought my point is clear, we can't all get the most desirable women out there. So just fish in your local pond and you might get lucky.
Actually (here is your logic flaw) yes, we can. The amount of balls and work it requires to ACTUALLY go out there and improve with something that's one of the biggest no-gos when talking between people "How can I have more sex with women?" is an effort only very few people put in. And even among those who do, there are a LOT (including myself) who tune it down to "just another hobby" sooner or later.
Have you dated so-called beautiful women before? Gotten to know them a little better? They'll tell you stories you wouldn't believe. They'll tell you about creeps hanging around them, random stalkers and rich guys who bore them to death hoping they'll get fucked. It is not EASY for them either.
Which is, learn to feel comfortable enough to come out of your shell. If you're sitting there and thinking it's not time to grab her hand or put your hand behind her back you're not coming out of your shell, you're being a robot reciting a routine.
I 100% agree that this should be the real goal. That's a statement I'd throw random "PUAs" in their faces all day long myself. The problem however (I think that's the thing I also said the most in this thread) is that there are a LOT of guys who can't work on that issue directly. Being confident and comfortable with yourself is a result of a lifelong process, not something you can rather actively "work on". Speaking for me, since you mentioned kino directly, before starting with pickup I didn't touch girls. I just didn't. No one TOLD me it's normal that humans touch each other all the damn time. I simply wasn't raised like that. Now, should I stay like this my entire life because that's how I was raised the first 20 years or should I be gratefull that some random nerd wrote a book just for me?
A book saying "start randomly touching her arm or knee when talking to her then try this or that" had immense effect on me. At first it was weird as fuck but I started to understand "hey, it is REALLY okay to do that. And it actually feels good to do it once I'm past the first wtfwtfwtf." - notice the difference between someone who - for whatever reasons - lacks the knowledge/balls/abilities to do something he actually starts to like once he realizes it's possible and someone who mechanicly works after a prewritten guide again and again?
...pretty much EVERY SINGLE so called PUA that I know of who did this mass routine crap had, some sooner, some later a certain point where he realized how fucking fake he has become with all of that. The point at which he realizes, he's just - like any human being - looking to be appreciated, liked and loved for what he really is. Before that point you can't start working on real CORE values like self-respect or self-confidence. Some people understand this easily, some need the hard way.
Condemning someone who can't look a girl in the eye for using canned lines is nothing more than laughing about a disabled person. - That's how that dude feels like.
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You're overestimating how humans work. A lot. "As long as you enter the right number and push the right buttons everything else will fall into place." this actually is pretty damn accurately describing how most human beings work. The only real difference being how complicate the padlocks are.
I was trying to make a point related to this the other day I believe.From my little knowledge of scientific psychology I know that there have been many (randomised if you will) studies concerning manipulation. You can get people to give other people excruciating electroshocks, just for answering a math question wrong, if the person dishing out the punishment is sufficiently convinced of your authority. You can boss people around to get them to do what you want. You can manipulate people, I'm not arguing against this. Take hypnosis for instance. However, when the person giving the electroshocks goes home and thinks about the whole episode they might not feel all that great about it in hindsight. In addition I don't think anyone can cargue that insecure nervous people are more easily manipulated than settled confident characters. My points remains the same though, you might get a girl to talk to you kiss you go home with you one evening but she might wake up the next morning and feel kinda shitty about the whole thing, or worse, not remember why she did so with you. Again, this gets you a lay, but I feel it's a long way off from self improvement. You might just have created a not so favourable event in someone's biography. Not sure if I'm doing a good job explaining this, but in brief: you might get what you want or achieve what you set out to do, but the other party might not feel so great about it.
Now the trainer bashing. I wasn't aware that was what I was doing. I'm sceptical of things that are promoted without quality control Just like I am sceptical of religious sects and televangelists. You're sold something that you might not receive.I am not bashing. I don't know any PUA trainers, I haven't seen them work or anything like that. I don't think they're all about financial interest, I actually believe the training stemmed from a need to generate money because people were doing their pickup thing and nothing else and needed to pay the rent. In any case, as a profession, you're providing a service. As such the provided service needs to meet certain standards, which of course in this field are totally unregulated. This is part of the professional ethics discussion. I'll gladly accept that there's good stuff, and less good stuff out there.
Actually (here is your logic flaw) yes, we can. The amount of balls and work it requires to ACTUALLY go out there and improve with something that's one of the biggest no-gos when talking between people "How can I have more sex with women?" is an effort only very few people put in....
Have you dated so-called beautiful women before? Gotten to know them a little better? They'll tell you stories you wouldn't believe. They'll tell you about creeps hanging around them, random stalkers and rich guys who bore them to death hoping they'll get fucked. It is not EASY for them either.
Well, it's possible our standards and tastes differ widely when it comes to what a stunning woman" is, I see a stunning woman once a month I'd say. And very pretty maybe once a week. And trust me, I do look. The girl I'm dating now I think is stunning. Much better looking that me at least. I feel I have dated 3 very beatiful women in my life. I've discussed their relationship history at length with 2 of them. For instance my current girlfriend's relationship history is longer than mine in number, but apart from one guy who happens to be her close friend now, not one was considered memorable or important enough to be mentioned by name. No one left an impression on her, because she didn't feel a connection. She maintains this wasn't their fault, many tried really hard in various ways, and were 'great guys' (her words), she just wasn't attracted to them, no matter what they did or tried..She did have physical relations without being even remotely emotionally attached.
In essence I agree, it's not easy for anyone to find a partner these days, there's too much choice, and people are far pickier than they were when our parents got together. Explains the high rate of divorces as well.
Again I'm not debating whether you as PUA could talk yourself into any girls bed. I'm sceptical that any girl (stunning or otherwise) would want to introduce you to her parents and all her friends and want a serious open ended relationship with you, as a result of how well you connected in the first 20 minutes. I really don't buy it. I think this emphasis on the first meeting is totally overhyped. This is about goals though, what's the goal, to fall in love and have a great relationship and great sex or just to get a number and hopefully a lay.
And this could also be a philosophical debate about what men want, what they're told to want in society. I for one am certain I don't want to just sleep with different women all the time. So the society condition has worked on me. I had a phase where I was a slut, I pretty much regret it now, but see how I probably needed to get that out of my sister so I could settle and focus on one person. This whole reasoning about us being conditioned by society to be monogamous when really we should be spreading our sperm seems like a really weak excuse to me to just fool around and pick up women, trying to get laid. Because some people feel they've not been laid enough and are now overcompensating. They've come across this set of skills that can get them laid, and they're going to town on it.
As for the patterns...i understand someone very insecure needs guidelines to stick to, and just need to get over their angst of being close to women. So yeah go on touch them. But again, might as well pay a sex worker and get comfortable touching her. Eventually you're going to have to let go of the routines, they're inhibiting as much as intially liberating.
Finally, one thing, the whole stressing on touching. I'll gladly ask my gf, sister etc about this but I actually feel confident when i say the classy, pretty, intelligent girl, the one you really want to get with, unless you're on the dance floor, doesn't want to be touched within minutes of meeting you. They might tolerate it, just because they don't slap your hand away it doesn't mean they're totally into it. I'd rather stick to talking and keeping their attention with conversation.
Also the so called mile stones: number, kissing, sex, that's just an artificial level from a video game. If a girl likes you, it'll happen eventually. This creates pressure. The only time I've asked for numbers was after she's already indicated wanting further contact, just to make it clear I want the number. This'll save you having to go through painful awkward phonecalls, while being rejected, or calling number where no one picks up.
Condemning someone who can't look a girl in the eye for using canned lines is nothing more than laughing about a disabled person. - That's how that dude feels like.
No laughing here, or condemning for that matter.
I only chuckled at the comparison between sc2 and being in the good books with women. Women are so much work.More so the older they get, actually, teenagers are hard work too, between 19-25 girls are easiest to satisfy. sc2 is moving a computer mouse and hitting the appropriate keys. I kick ass at sc2. The other thing...man. Talk about square pegs in round holes.
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Can we talk less theorycraft and philosophical crap and actually share funny real life stories?
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On January 09 2012 22:39 SeXyBaCk wrote:Show nested quote +You're overestimating how humans work. A lot. "As long as you enter the right number and push the right buttons everything else will fall into place." this actually is pretty damn accurately describing how most human beings work. The only real difference being how complicate the padlocks are. I was trying to make a point related to this the other day I believe.From my little knowledge of scientific psychology I know that there have been many (randomised if you will) studies concerning manipulation. You can get people to give other people excruciating electroshocks, just for answering a math question wrong, if the person dishing out the punishment is sufficiently convinced of your authority. You can boss people around to get them to do what you want. You can manipulate people, I'm not arguing against this. Take hypnosis for instance. However, when the person giving the electroshocks goes home and thinks about the whole episode they might not feel all that great about it in hindsight. In addition I don't think anyone can cargue that insecure nervous people are more easily manipulated than settled confident characters. My points remains the same though, you might get a girl to talk to you kiss you go home with you one evening but she might wake up the next morning and feel kinda shitty about the whole thing, or worse, not remember why she did so with you. Again, this gets you a lay, but I feel it's a long way off from self improvement. You might just have created a not so favourable event in someone's biography. Not sure if I'm doing a good job explaining this, but in brief: you might get what you want or achieve what you set out to do, but the other party might not feel so great about it.
I'm only going to respond to this part, I'm sure r.evo will talk about your whole post
The electric shock experiment (I forget the proper name for it) was discussed in one of my intro psychology classes. Remember that the one pressing the switch would only do so if they couldn't see the victim.
Regardless, what about the other end of the spectrum? What if you created a memorable event in somebodies biography. Something they might think about from time to time and smile, cherishing that memory even if it was a one/few time thing? This is what I hope to achieve eventually; to give somebody something to remember as one of the best damn times of their life, and a real connection. Sometimes I think PUA gets a bad rep because people only look at the negative aspects, but doesn't look into the long term or the positive side of it.
I know, even with my limited time (I'd only consider myself "practicing" for a month), it has gotten me more confident in myself, and really helped to develop my life style. I wish I had more time to devote to it honestly. I'm beginning to really love social interactions, something that I also feel I'm starting to have control over now that I'm taking an active role in it.
Am I where I want to be? Not in the slightest. Do I know everything I want to know about myself? Not even close. Am I getting there? Yes.
I think it's amazing the amount people don't know about themselves.
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Sigh, I wish you could make less quality posts so I wouldn't feel forced to check this inbetween nerding on a free day. =D
On January 09 2012 22:39 SeXyBaCk wrote:Show nested quote +You're overestimating how humans work. A lot. "As long as you enter the right number and push the right buttons everything else will fall into place." this actually is pretty damn accurately describing how most human beings work. The only real difference being how complicate the padlocks are. I was trying to make a point related to this the other day I believe.From my little knowledge of scientific psychology I know that there have been many (randomised if you will) studies concerning manipulation. You can get people to give other people excruciating electroshocks, just for answering a math question wrong, if the person dishing out the punishment is sufficiently convinced of your authority. You can boss people around to get them to do what you want. You can manipulate people, I'm not arguing against this. Take hypnosis for instance. However, when the person giving the electroshocks goes home and thinks about the whole episode they might not feel all that great about it in hindsight. In addition I don't think anyone can cargue that insecure nervous people are more easily manipulated than settled confident characters. My points remains the same though, you might get a girl to talk to you kiss you go home with you one evening but she might wake up the next morning and feel kinda shitty about the whole thing, or worse, not remember why she did so with you. Again, this gets you a lay, but I feel it's a long way off from self improvement. You might just have created a not so favourable event in someone's biography. Not sure if I'm doing a good job explaining this, but in brief: you might get what you want or achieve what you set out to do, but the other party might not feel so great about it.
Agree. However, I didn't even refer to authority. Screening out what someone really desires and giving it to him is basicly nothing more as smoothtalking/asskissing on a higher level. However, when it comes to stuff like this I'd move away from pickup theory and dive more towards Robert Greene or Machiavelli. Both of those are kinda usefull in pickup too tho. =P
Now the trainer bashing. I wasn't aware that was what I was doing. I'm sceptical of things that are promoted without quality control Just like I am sceptical of religious sects and televangelists. You're sold something that you might not receive.I am not bashing. I don't know any PUA trainers, I haven't seen them work or anything like that. I don't think they're all about financial interest, I actually believe the training stemmed from a need to generate money because people were doing their pickup thing and nothing else and needed to pay the rent. In any case, as a profession, you're providing a service. As such the provided service needs to meet certain standards, which of course in this field are totally unregulated. This is part of the professional ethics discussion. I'll gladly accept that there's good stuff, and less good stuff out there.
Agree again. Pretty much the only "regulation" in the pickup scene are reviews and mouth to mouth propaganda. All you can do is find people with similar values as you'd like to see in yourself and try around with them. I find the correct trainer choice in pickup already rather... not just hard but even sometimes almost dangerous because you don't want to learn from someone who's gonna introduce values that you don't want into you without noticing it at first. I'd be REALLY picky about who I'd take coaching from, but my usual rule of thumb is the same as in martial arts: Look how other students behave and ask yourself if you'd like to develop yourself into that direction. Works pretty well imo.
Well, it's possible our standards and tastes differ widely when it comes to what a stunning woman" is, I see a stunning woman once a month I'd say. And very pretty maybe once a week. And trust me, I do look. The girl I'm dating now I think is stunning. Much better looking that me at least. I feel I have dated 3 very beatiful women in my life. I've discussed their relationship history at length with 2 of them. For instance my current girlfriend's relationship history is longer than mine in number, but apart from one guy who happens to be her close friend now, not one was considered memorable or important enough to be mentioned by name. No one left an impression on her, because she didn't feel a connection. She maintains this wasn't their fault, many tried really hard in various ways, and were 'great guys' (her words), she just wasn't attracted to them, no matter what they did or tried..She did have physical relations without being even remotely emotionally attached.
In essence I agree, it's not easy for anyone to find a partner these days, there's too much choice, and people are far pickier than they were when our parents got together. Explains the high rate of divorces as well.
In terms of what's stunning and what is not people usually disagree a lot. What I learned in two years of pickup is, that I'd rather have someone around me with perfectly matching core values than a model career. I remember when I started pickup my standard was among the lines of "I don't wanna be ashamed of showing her in public" and it pretty much developed to "I want to walk with her into a room and enjoy the spotlight on us".
On a related note I'd actually not blame pickyness for high divorce rates or for the reason most relationships are failing. From the limited amount of cases where I worked with couples (like 30 total or something) I feel that most relationships fail because it is so easy to dump someone. Relationships are becoming fast food and that's something I absolutely hate. I don't want fast food books, sex, movies or anything else for that matter. I want a relationship with someone I can trust and grow together.
@lifestories, if your girl had no weird guys who couldn't let go of her you can be pretty happy. =P ... My current gf has loads of troubles keeping random "nice guys" away from her, but, honestly, that's also a (female) skillset a women can work on a lot. From my past dating experience I always felt as if the better looking the girl is, the more likely she is to have bad past experiences with guys who couldn't let go / did weird shit to/for her.
Again I'm not debating whether you as PUA could talk yourself into any girls bed. I'm sceptical that any girl (stunning or otherwise) would want to introduce you to her parents and all her friends and want a serious open ended relationship with you, as a result of how well you connected in the first 20 minutes. I really don't buy it. I think this emphasis on the first meeting is totally overhyped. This is about goals though, what's the goal, to fall in love and have a great relationship and great sex or just to get a number and hopefully a lay.
Hmm.... In my world the first 20 minutes are more like opening the door. There won't be any real trust or any real comfort (in very few cases even strong attraction) most of the time, but you can get over with the entire "Are you someone I want to invest time into or not?" - the goal of the first 20 minutes (or rather the time before the NC up to the first real date) is to create a huge "YES" in the other persons mind, not much more, not much less. - Not to mention those 20 minutes are also MY chance to decide whether I want to invest more or less.
Relationship? Her parents? Agree, gtfothx. I'm with most others in the community since I wouldn't consider an "official" relationship before like 2-3 weeks of having a good time & sexual relationship already.
And this could also be a philosophical debate about what men want, what they're told to want in society. I for one am certain I don't want to just sleep with different women all the time. So the society condition has worked on me. I had a phase where I was a slut, I pretty much regret it now, but see how I probably needed to get that out of my sister so I could settle and focus on one person. This whole reasoning about us being conditioned by society to be monogamous when really we should be spreading our sperm seems like a really weak excuse to me to just fool around and pick up women, trying to get laid. Because some people feel they've not been laid enough and are now overcompensating. They've come across this set of skills that can get them laid, and they're going to town on it.
Just quoting for awesome typo. Huehuehuehue. =D
As for the patterns...i understand someone very insecure needs guidelines to stick to, and just need to get over their angst of being close to women. So yeah go on touch them. But again, might as well pay a sex worker and get comfortable touching her. Eventually you're going to have to let go of the routines, they're inhibiting as much as intially liberating.
Finally, one thing, the whole stressing on touching. I'll gladly ask my gf, sister etc about this but I actually feel confident when i say the classy, pretty, intelligent girl, the one you really want to get with, unless you're on the dance floor, doesn't want to be touched within minutes of meeting you. They might tolerate it, just because they don't slap your hand away it doesn't mean they're totally into it. I'd rather stick to talking and keeping their attention with conversation.
This is all about the correct calibration. A setting in a casino or library with girl x has a different "correct" amount of good kino compared to a setting in a club or on the streets. Over-/under emphasizing kino is, imo, a mistake that will get fixed with more experience since, even if they don't slap your hand away, will show you that they don't appreciate it in one or the other way. However, NO kino at all for more than a few minutes is something I wouldn't recommend to anyone new since from my experience it's only correct in very, very few cases (mostly involving her 2m husband standing next to her or something similar =P).
Also the so called mile stones: number, kissing, sex, that's just an artificial level from a video game. If a girl likes you, it'll happen eventually. This creates pressure. The only time I've asked for numbers was after she's already indicated wanting further contact, just to make it clear I want the number. This'll save you having to go through painful awkward phonecalls, while being rejected, or calling number where no one picks up.
If I recall correctly the whole artificial pickup slang and the whole video game comparison is intended because it allows you to distance yourself from the situation *shrug* ... I usually aim to talk/have fun with her for as long as possible. If logistic doesn't allow the whole thing to be taken further (might mean 5 minutes, might mean after having spent the night together) I'll ask her if she has any idea how we could keep contact, usually followed by a "I could just give you my phone number" =P ... Up to now still the smoothest method I know of. <3
Show nested quote +Condemning someone who can't look a girl in the eye for using canned lines is nothing more than laughing about a disabled person. - That's how that dude feels like. No laughing here, or condemning for that matter. I only chuckled at the comparison between sc2 and being in the good books with women. Women are so much work.More so the older they get, actually, teenagers are hard work too, between 19-25 girls are easiest to satisfy. sc2 is moving a computer mouse and hitting the appropriate keys. I kick ass at sc2. The other thing...man. Talk about square pegs in round holes.
Durr, I obviously intended to say that pickup is easy as fuck compared to sc:bw. Obviously you're going to find it hard compared to sc2. =P
My usual aim in terms of age was around 24-28 +/-2. I can't stand girls who are like freshly out of school. So annoying to deal with. Also I actually find women in their late 20's / early 30's easier to deal with than the ones around 20. Like.. there usually is no "I THINK I WANT A RELATIONSHIP OH WAIT I JUST WANT TO HAVE A GOOD TIME TONIGHT OMG NO I WANT A GUY I CAN MARRY!!!112"-drama with the older ones. I find them to be more easy to calculate and easier to be honest to. =S
All in all I feel myself agreeing with you way too much. Time for some cool trollbait. =P
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I'm only going to respond to this part, I'm sure r.evo will talk about your whole post
The electric shock experiment (I forget the proper name for it) was discussed in one of my intro psychology classes. Remember that the one pressing the switch would only do so if they couldn't see the victim.
Regardless, what about the other end of the spectrum? What if you created a memorable event in somebodies biography. Something they might think about from time to time and smile, cherishing that memory even if it was a one/few time thing? This is what I hope to achieve eventually; to give somebody something to remember as one of the best damn times of their life, and a real connection. Sometimes I think PUA gets a bad rep because people only look at the negative aspects, but doesn't look into the long term or the positive side of it.
I know, even with my limited time (I'd only consider myself "practicing" for a month), it has gotten me more confident in myself, and really helped to develop my life style. I wish I had more time to devote to it honestly. I'm beginning to really love social interactions, something that I also feel I'm starting to have control over now that I'm taking an active role in it.
Am I where I want to be? Not in the slightest. Do I know everything I want to know about myself? Not even close. Am I getting there? Yes.
I think it's amazing the amount people don't know about themselves.
Granted. You could be giving someone a memorable time indeed. However, imagine this happening to you. Some nice girl approaches you and you have, what you perceive as a great time, you get on really well, she's making a physical approach and you do take it however far you take it. She seems really receptive and into you. As good as it's been you want to see them again no? If it was good you want more. it's like candy with kids. Taking away whatever was good will hurt. And that oo will leave an impression, even if the original event was indeed positive. I think women put more into sex than men. It's more intimate for them, the physical act is. What I'm trying to say is even if she's consenting and really into it and all that, she might get hurt if you blow her off or cut her off after. I've done it, I'm not proud of it, more over I downright regret. I appreciate that it can hurt badly, I hope you're aware of this if you do it frequently.
As for telling stories, no way josé. Only will come back to bite you in time.
Agree. However, I didn't even refer to authority. Screening out what someone really desires and giving it to him is basicly nothing more as smoothtalking/asskissing on a higher level. However, when it comes to stuff like this I'd move away from pickup theory and dive more towards Robert Greene or Machiavelli. Both of those are kinda usefull in pickup too tho. =P
it's seduction at the end of the day. And that is fine, it's often referred to as an art. However, if you've studied it, trained it, tested it, perfect your technique, there's a somewhat sinister tone to this I find. You' don't introduce yourself as someone who chats up girls for a pasttime or self improvement project correct? I'm not saying it's dishonest, but you have an unfair advantage over the other party in the game that is flirting. Again this is a moral point you can either take to heart or totally ignore.
sister still haven't gotten typos out of my SYSTEM.
From my experience women's expectations increase with age, well, probably at 50 they give up on men altogether. When they're very young they're just immature and get troubled be teeny little things. Easiest to have casual fun with in their 20s i found. Of course this is blunt generalisation.
BW..i only made tanks and bunkers and got owned the most time. Sc2 i rule even making rauders all day long. I never found it hard picking up girls, it just happened with me. But making someone truely happy and not annoying them ever so often is tough. When you love someone you want to make them happy and when you make the miserable you feel like an ass, even if it's over a miniscule thing. Sometimes I feel like if you're too good at relationships too early in, their expectations are way overblown and you're just going to do stuff wrong after that. Like they're going to have to take some knocks. And I'm not even talking about effort or the time you invest, if you like someone time doesn't factor in, but there's just so much you can do wrong in relationships. And chicks register everyhting and store it for later. My advice is to just keep your mouth shut mostly, if you're not saying much, you can't be saying much wrong. If you impress your love interest too much in the first few days and weeks they just expect more out of the relationship than they did with their last boyfriend. You yourself might feel the same way if it starts of being amazingly good.
Also, r.Evo, most pretty girls have had some freak threatening to throw himself under a train or some other douche showing stalker-like behaviour in their past. I'd rather not hear about it from the woman I'm seeing.
I realise the PUA lingo stems from the need to have terms to describe specific situations, most are pretty dorky though, and indicate their nerdy origin. Makes me want to cringe. Even if I was actively in the scene I'd refuse to use the terms.
It sounds like you coach and at least PUA is part of your life. Does your significant other know what you do?
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Show nested quote +I'm only going to respond to this part, I'm sure r.evo will talk about your whole post
The electric shock experiment (I forget the proper name for it) was discussed in one of my intro psychology classes. Remember that the one pressing the switch would only do so if they couldn't see the victim.
Regardless, what about the other end of the spectrum? What if you created a memorable event in somebodies biography. Something they might think about from time to time and smile, cherishing that memory even if it was a one/few time thing? This is what I hope to achieve eventually; to give somebody something to remember as one of the best damn times of their life, and a real connection. Sometimes I think PUA gets a bad rep because people only look at the negative aspects, but doesn't look into the long term or the positive side of it.
I know, even with my limited time (I'd only consider myself "practicing" for a month), it has gotten me more confident in myself, and really helped to develop my life style. I wish I had more time to devote to it honestly. I'm beginning to really love social interactions, something that I also feel I'm starting to have control over now that I'm taking an active role in it.
Am I where I want to be? Not in the slightest. Do I know everything I want to know about myself? Not even close. Am I getting there? Yes.
I think it's amazing the amount people don't know about themselves. Granted. You could be giving someone a memorable time indeed. However, imagine this happening to you. Some nice girl approaches you and you have, what you perceive as a great time, you get on really well, she's making a physical approach and you do take it however far you take it. She seems really receptive and into you. As good as it's been you want to see them again no? If it was good you want more. it's like candy with kids. Taking away whatever was good will hurt. And that oo will leave an impression, even if the original event was indeed positive. I think women put more into sex than men. It's more intimate for them, the physical act is. What I'm trying to say is even if she's consenting and really into it and all that, she might get hurt if you blow her off or cut her off after. I've done it, I'm not proud of it, more over I downright regret. I appreciate that it can hurt badly, I hope you're aware of this if you do it frequently. As for telling stories, no way josé. Only will come back to bite you in time.
Leave her better than you found her. The end. Yes, it's that simple.
Show nested quote +Agree. However, I didn't even refer to authority. Screening out what someone really desires and giving it to him is basicly nothing more as smoothtalking/asskissing on a higher level. However, when it comes to stuff like this I'd move away from pickup theory and dive more towards Robert Greene or Machiavelli. Both of those are kinda usefull in pickup too tho. =P it's seduction at the end of the day. And that is fine, it's often referred to as an art. However, if you've studied it, trained it, tested it, perfect your technique, there's a somewhat sinister tone to this I find. You' don't introduce yourself as someone who chats up girls for a pasttime or self improvement project correct? I'm not saying it's dishonest, but you have an unfair advantage over the other party in the game that is flirting. Again this is a moral point you can either take to heart or totally ignore.
I wouldn't even say that I specialize in seduction at this point in time. I'd rather say I'm a total nerd when it comes to communication. Or to quote the NLP founders, "you can't not communicate" - this entire thing is incredibly fascinating to me.
Obviously such a thing has a "sinister tone" as you put it. The plain idea that someone else could be able to "control" you is terrifying. It also has it's drawbacks. There aren't a lot of people who can take an honest and precise "You're acting like this to achieve xy" into the face. As for the introducing part, I don't take it seriously at all. I might tell her I'm a professional lemonade seller, I might tell her that I'm here on a seminar learning how to pick up girls cause I'm incredibly shy (the seminar part wasn't even a lie), etc. pp. but I guess you didn't shoot for that. =P
When things get serious most people I meet (including girls) learn rather quickly that I make my money playing poker or as a "coach for conscious communication" as I usually put it, depending on which of those sources of income I like most at that point in time.
In my world, life is decided by the person with the biggest what you call "unfair advantage". If I know how to play poker better than the person opposite of the table and I'm not emotionally related to him or her (sic!) I won't stop that person from throwing themselves into something they can't handle. A girl that I like to get intimate with will know WAY beforehand that I'm in a relationship and that she has to accept the fact that this is either a rare thing and my gf will know about it or that my gf would like to play along. If she agrees to those terms, cool, let's enjoy a good time together. If she agrees and then has issues later with it, I'll try to fix her up. So far (lucky me) I never had the problem that I got together with a girl who wanted way more from me than she got. A big part of this is solid screening though, I'll try my best to stay away from mentally not so stable girls and dramaqueens.
And before I was in a relationship, said girl would know that I don't aim for a relationship. I aim for having a good time with her. If more sparks between us cool, if not; - cool, too.
Also I've had the scenario multiple times that I blew up someone elses set because he was a total lying douchebag. I don't care about stuff like "bros before hoes" when it's a random "PUA" who told me 20 minutes ago that he wants an easy lay tonight if he tells a girl next to me that he's looking into a serious commitment while she starts admiring him for it.
An "unfair advantage" is nothing more than someone who put more work into something than someone else. "Unfair" is your perception that someone who has this advantage will use it to impact someone elses life negatively. It can also be a beautiful advantage if you, as catch put it quite eloquently, give a girl a great experience she'll remember for the rest of her life without having regrets or second thoughts.
I had it happen once that a girl I just dated and got into bed met another girl that used to date me like 2-3 days after we had sex, turned out they're now best buddies and study together. Once they found out that both knew me and that the 2nd one got intimate with me the 1st told her she did, too. The response I got after asking "So, what did she say about me?" was "She smiled and said, 'he's a really cool guy. Enjoy him while you can, you can have loads of fun with him.' " ... I was so damn proud back then. I'm aiming to have every girl / women I've been with to think like that.
Considering both of those girls were bisexual it also enabled a pretty fun regame of the first girl and my first night out where an entire club envied me to death, but, yeah... you get the idea. =D
/subtle brag.
When you love someone you want to make them happy and when you make the miserable you feel like an ass, even if it's over a miniscule thing. Sometimes I feel like if you're too good at relationships too early in, their expectations are way overblown and you're just going to do stuff wrong after that. Like they're going to have to take some knocks. And I'm not even talking about effort or the time you invest, if you like someone time doesn't factor in, but there's just so much you can do wrong in relationships. And chicks register everyhting and store it for later. My advice is to just keep your mouth shut mostly, if you're not saying much, you can't be saying much wrong. If you impress your love interest too much in the first few days and weeks they just expect more out of the relationship than they did with their last boyfriend. You yourself might feel the same way if it starts of being amazingly good.
Hm. I just asked my gf about what the fuck I did right in the first few weeks and the answer I got was pretty much like "I don't know you were just normal. No drama, like, we're together, but you're not running after me 24/7 or anything like that." ... dno really myself. I think I'm trying to invest on a similar level as the other side and I set clear borders. If I get called multiple times without returning it, I'll tell her that she should stop this crap 'cause I don't like it. I also try to defuse major stuff VERY early, like looking after other girls. If she'd ask me about why I'd do this or stuff like that, I'd make sure she understands that it's not big deal.
Honesty + being confident in what you're doing = strong enough frame to withstand any shittests a fresh relationship can throw at you imo.
Also, r.Evo, most pretty girls have had some freak threatening to throw himself under a train or some other douche showing stalker-like behaviour in their past. I'd rather not hear about it from the woman I'm seeing.
lol, I actually ENJOY those stories. I think there's a small sadistic nerd inside of me who is like "wow, a few years more and you would have done this thing yours... OH FUCK THIS PART I DID BEFORE LOL I GOTTA TELL HER ABOUT IT LOL" and I just do that. I'm cool with listening to stuff like that if it's important to her & a part of her life. (hint: there's a difference between this and being her emotional tampon)
I realise the PUA lingo stems from the need to have terms to describe specific situations, most are pretty dorky though, and indicate their nerdy origin. Makes me want to cringe. Even if I was actively in the scene I'd refuse to use the terms.
Most of the time I'm going out with "pickup guys/girls" that I enjoy having around me we're using all of it jokingly 24/7. "OMG LOOK DID YOU SEE THAT HB RIGHT THERE. THE ONE WITH THE FAT COCKBLOCK NEXT TO HER?! IM GONNA NC DAT BITCH RIGHT NOW." - "Hey, you, come here! My buddy just said he's gonna NC YOU TONITE, DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT THIS MEANS? What? No?!; - Dude this girl sucks, let's ask the one over there." *moving on* ... stuff like that. Having a good time and enjoying yourself > all. This also includes random stupid bets like trying to get the most drinks from girls without paying for them during a night or crap like that. (I lost, only made it to 7. Club was small enough that after like 10 times total the girls started noticing and talking about it. We told those who asked that we're homeless addicts who decided to replace the cocaine with ripping off poor girls for cost-efficiency. Also I don't think we erh.. "scored" that night at all but we had a lot of fun. =D)
It sounds like you coach and at least PUA is part of your life. Does your significant other know what you do?
Yes. And she loves it. Also she gets the benefit of enjoying an easy supply of attractive women into her bedroom. Besides that she posts on TL and loves lurking this thread. hi!
PS: Another cool story was about some new guy in our lair who FINALLY got his first set done, the girl was totally into him and he sat next to her and didn't react to anything. Like, he just talked and didn't move a finger while SHE already intiated kino. We had one guy with us who used a pretty random animal as his forum nick and so we promised a random girl a drink if she runs over to that sofa, stands in front of them and says "THE INDISH ELEPHANT SAYS: ESCALATION IS NEVER GOOD!" - he got the hint and was making out with her later. hi5. Sometimes nerdslang is kinda cool when you want to convey something to some other "insider"; but usually I find it more cool to just do it in the open and leave the girl(s) like "wtf is going on here?!" - "oh, nothing, we're just trying how we can best get you to come over to our place later and make hot steaming monkey love to us all night" =D
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So anyone got book recommendations?
Looking to listen to a PUA-type audiobook during gym sessions, and the commute to and from the gym.
By googling for 2 minutes, it seems like The Game is a good book? Anything better than that, especially for someone new to this stuff?
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The game, from my understanding wasn't a guide to PUA, but a journalisticly motivated investigation into the scene by a journalist who decided to become a PUA to find out about it and write a book and then get out. It was descriptive of some of the techniques (or whatever the appropriate term is, correct me) but it wasn't a PUA guide per se. If you want to get into it you probably need something written by one of the PUAs in the industry, and from googling I saw that some of the stuff was grossly expensive, like 230 bucks for a set of ebooks. I'd try torrenting it. This might not be appreciated by members of the scene.
Before I bore everyone with further moral or ethical questions in regard to pickupping, I've come to the conclusion that as long as you don't fake prolonged romantic interest and make it clear you're primarily looking for fun, the playing fileds are rather even. Girls that go out and are willing to make out right away or hook up for sex aren't looking for a long term relationship, they too just want fun, and girls use all kinds of subtle and conscious techniques to attract guys.In marketing terms you're selling a product they came out to buy, and as such are getting what they're looking for. This doesn't rule out the possibility though of someone being taken advantage of.
Anyway I was curious about a couple of things.
r Evo: by the sound of it you can make a living out of playing poker professionally and being a PUA coach? Is this your long term career or just something you're going to be doing in your youth? Sounds like we are roughly the same age (I'm 28) and I'm wondering how this less than certain income syncs with your general life planning. What I mean is, you're never guaranteed to win at poker, although if you're good I'm sure you can make a steady in come and if you're really good you can get rich of it, but for instance her in switzerland (from what i understand) only casinos are allowed to host poker, clearly limiting opportunities for pro players, and gambling laws can change everywhere (online gambling laws in US changed not long ago I believe). Also I should probably clarify what I meant with life planning: stuff I'm starting to do now like buying a house, getting a life insurance, starting a pension plan, investing some money etc., is any of this on your mind?
Squattincassanova (i trust that second S is intentional): I read in one of your posts your goal eventually was to meet a woman you consider worth it marrying, and as for now you're practicing your skills and screening. Is that a conscious decision you'll eventually make as in: "And from tomorrow on, I'm going to start looking for a long term relationship, and the focus or target group of women will be different to the one I've been mingling with at the moment". Or is it just a question of when it happens it happens. Like love will strke you down. Also, for me in the past, if I took it as far as going on a number of dates with someone, occasionally if nothing came of it, we'd become friends. Does that ever happen to you, that you just become friends with a girl? or is it physically impossible, time wise? Just curious about your lifestyle really. if you feel these questions are too invasive...can't force you to answer ofc.
One last thing...an observation i have made, there seem to be a lot of asian guys interested in and practising PUA. I wouldn't say asian guys are less outgoing but maybe more introverted than western men? Is it a culture thing (depending on the individual country)? Or do you reckon it might be how asian women are...in my experience more confident or at least more direct/brutally honest. I'm dating an american girl who's half asian (korean/Japanese) and the harsh stuff that comes out of her mouth just leaves me speechless at times, i would have to feel for the dude who come at her the wrong way.
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@Banana. Try out models by mark mason. $20. Only one I have actually read though.
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Thanks for the responses.
On January 10 2012 21:45 Catch wrote: @Banana. Try out models by mark mason. $20. Only one I have actually read though. How is this book? Not too many reviews on Amazon
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On January 11 2012 03:11 JohnnyBanana wrote:Thanks for the responses. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 21:45 Catch wrote: @Banana. Try out models by mark mason. $20. Only one I have actually read though. How is this book? Not too many reviews on Amazon
quote from an earlier post. I'm probably biased
So I got done reading models. I was going through a chapter a day, pacing myself so I could really think about it. Then I said screw it and blazed through the last third in a dayish.
It's hard to say this book is life changing, but I have a hard time putting another adjective on it.
I found the first section of the book especially powerful. It is theory work. He then delves into another section, in which there is theory then specific work, and the final section is mostly action with a little bit of theory. The final chapter gives you an action plan so to speak, and then some good words of closing.
It is a very well put together book in my opinion, and maybe that is because I am very congruent with Mark's style. I find his truths, about attraction and seduction, very spot on. Like I've said before, he also calls a lot of bullshit on current PUA and I can't help but agree with the guy.
All I have to say is, I look at seduction in terms of neediness and venerability. I welcome (almost ) rejection as means of success. And tonight I found myself looking at women and wondering if they were interesting people or not. If that isn't a life-changing, I don't know what is.
All in all, I have to say is this book is totally. totally fucking worth it. I'm actually buying it for my friend for christmas (Secret santa yeahyeahyeah).
I do have a problem though, unrelated to this. I'm in college so I normally go to house parties/whatever else around campus. I'm normally the one driving since I rarely drink. The problem is we'll go to a party, and I feel responsible for my friends good times. To the point where today me and a friend went together (just us) to a party, and I felt like he wasn't having a good time so I just said lets bounce.
Am I responsible for my friends well being? I'm not really too sure how to approach this. I mean I brought them, but there are times where I rather stay but I wouldn't want my friends to be sitting there miserable while I'm doing my thing (usually having a good time). Feeling that I am responsible for them affects me negatively.
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On January 10 2012 21:45 Catch wrote: @Banana. Try out models by mark mason. $20. Only one I have actually read though.
It's a good book. Focuses mostly on natural/inner game and improving quality of life rather than specific techniques. Has some interesting ideas that might seem a little out of the norm for a pua book. Such as: No "universal" attraction, everything is individuated by culture. Even things like confidence are variable (you may come off confident to an american girl b/c most guys are pussies, to a russian girl you might come off as not confident enough, to an asian girl you might come off as cocky).
He also argues that girls are either attracted to you, neutral, or hostile towards you. Most girls are neutral, and the key of a good pua is to turn neutrality into attraction. In other words to polarize a girl to either like you or hate you. For the most part those already hostile towards you, you can do nothing. The "friend" zone is when you never leave the neutral zone.
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Alright thanks guys, I'll look into the Models book then.
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Besides my killer good looks, and believe me when I have to tell girls that my eyes are up here, I generally don't actually pick up chicks. More often than not, I'll make them have a crush on me and then pursue me.
Also, DaVinci had some sort of saying: "For a man to get a woman, he must think himself as a lesbian."
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On January 10 2012 21:25 SeXyBaCk wrote: The game, from my understanding wasn't a guide to PUA, but a journalisticly motivated investigation into the scene by a journalist who decided to become a PUA to find out about it and write a book and then get out. It was descriptive of some of the techniques (or whatever the appropriate term is, correct me) but it wasn't a PUA guide per se. If you want to get into it you probably need something written by one of the PUAs in the industry, and from googling I saw that some of the stuff was grossly expensive, like 230 bucks for a set of ebooks. I'd try torrenting it. This might not be appreciated by members of the scene.
Before I bore everyone with further moral or ethical questions in regard to pickupping, I've come to the conclusion that as long as you don't fake prolonged romantic interest and make it clear you're primarily looking for fun, the playing fileds are rather even. Girls that go out and are willing to make out right away or hook up for sex aren't looking for a long term relationship, they too just want fun, and girls use all kinds of subtle and conscious techniques to attract guys.In marketing terms you're selling a product they came out to buy, and as such are getting what they're looking for. This doesn't rule out the possibility though of someone being taken advantage of.
Anyway I was curious about a couple of things.
r Evo: by the sound of it you can make a living out of playing poker professionally and being a PUA coach? Is this your long term career or just something you're going to be doing in your youth? Sounds like we are roughly the same age (I'm 28) and I'm wondering how this less than certain income syncs with your general life planning. What I mean is, you're never guaranteed to win at poker, although if you're good I'm sure you can make a steady in come and if you're really good you can get rich of it, but for instance her in switzerland (from what i understand) only casinos are allowed to host poker, clearly limiting opportunities for pro players, and gambling laws can change everywhere (online gambling laws in US changed not long ago I believe). Also I should probably clarify what I meant with life planning: stuff I'm starting to do now like buying a house, getting a life insurance, starting a pension plan, investing some money etc., is any of this on your mind?
Squattincassanova (i trust that second S is intentional): I read in one of your posts your goal eventually was to meet a woman you consider worth it marrying, and as for now you're practicing your skills and screening. Is that a conscious decision you'll eventually make as in: "And from tomorrow on, I'm going to start looking for a long term relationship, and the focus or target group of women will be different to the one I've been mingling with at the moment". Or is it just a question of when it happens it happens. Like love will strke you down. Also, for me in the past, if I took it as far as going on a number of dates with someone, occasionally if nothing came of it, we'd become friends. Does that ever happen to you, that you just become friends with a girl? or is it physically impossible, time wise? Just curious about your lifestyle really. if you feel these questions are too invasive...can't force you to answer ofc.
One last thing...an observation i have made, there seem to be a lot of asian guys interested in and practising PUA. I wouldn't say asian guys are less outgoing but maybe more introverted than western men? Is it a culture thing (depending on the individual country)? Or do you reckon it might be how asian women are...in my experience more confident or at least more direct/brutally honest. I'm dating an american girl who's half asian (korean/Japanese) and the harsh stuff that comes out of her mouth just leaves me speechless at times, i would have to feel for the dude who come at her the wrong way.
I still consider "The Game" great for someone new because it conveys a lot of the thought processes, where the entire stuff came from etc. pp. ... It's not that good to learn from, but a cool introduction into the whole topic imoimo.
Girls that go out and are willing to make out right away or hook up for sex aren't looking for a long term relationship, they too just want fun, and girls use all kinds of subtle and conscious techniques to attract guys.
While I do understand that you have taken on the role of the thread-priest (with squattin being the the little dwarf that pulls on everyones leg to get attention and me being the wannabe enlightened buddhist who can't stop talking or some crap like that), I find that you should stop overprojecting your values and limiting beliefs onto others as if they were facts. How can an attractive girl that meets a cool guy not hook up with him while ALSO looking or a long term relationship? If a guy does the same it's k, if a girl does it... oh wait, either she wants fun and is a slut or wants a relationship and is a saint, rite? ...
I highly suggest you read up on this topic since it's pretty damn common in todays society and annoying the fuck out of me.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madonna–whore_complex
r Evo: by the sound of it you can make a living out of playing poker professionally and being a PUA coach? Is this your long term career or just something you're going to be doing in your youth? Sounds like we are roughly the same age (I'm 28) and I'm wondering how this less than certain income syncs with your general life planning. What I mean is, you're never guaranteed to win at poker, although if you're good I'm sure you can make a steady in come and if you're really good you can get rich of it, but for instance her in switzerland (from what i understand) only casinos are allowed to host poker, clearly limiting opportunities for pro players, and gambling laws can change everywhere (online gambling laws in US changed not long ago I believe). Also I should probably clarify what I meant with life planning: stuff I'm starting to do now like buying a house, getting a life insurance, starting a pension plan, investing some money etc., is any of this on your mind?
I have never in this entire thread stated that I'm a PUA coach. While I'm more than confident in my ability to teach others and okay with my ability when it comes to pickup, I'm no where near the level where I'd be fine asking for larger amounts of money for it. The pickup "coaching" I do is either in local Lairs when going out with the guys (and as you can probably guess, there's lots of stuff someone who does this stuff for 3 years on and off can teach someone new) or as a sidetrack in my regular coaching when the topic occurs. For any "real" pickup coaching I'd send the guy off to other people that I trust will do a better job for his (or her) money.
What I do for a living is coaching everything that has to do with communication with oneself or others. This can mean that I'm working with couples, that a company hires me to train their apprentices / trainees on how to better perform their oral exams, working with people who have stagefright in front of larger audiences or other anxieties or all the way to creating efficient seminars about topics like bullying (for people in leading positions and affected persons), etc. pp, you get the idea.
The reason I (or rather "we", since I usually love to work as two more than solo) are being hired instead of "trained professionals" is because our stuff is effective as hell since we're drawing from so many different resources. That can mean guided meditation, classic NLP, tapping, trance / hypnosis, breathing exercises, memory training etc. pp. ... Also we're rather famous at places where we coach since we are able to hold 2-3day, each 8h seminars without any power point or handouts with our participants memorizing more than in other peoples seminars.
Obviously there is a SHITLOAD of our skills that can be translated directly to pickup praxis. After all, it's nothing more than presenting yourself properly and creating a little small world with another person where it's warm and cozy and with some spanking gear on the walls.
Apart from that I do appreciate your concerns that sound like my grandparents on the phone (after like 4 years they stopped, go me <3), but I have to tell you that I have no plans for the future and would never consider saving money. Life insurances are for the insane and who the hell needs a real estate while it's cheap as fuck when you can also pay rent all your life. Also all the skillzzz I've learned so far will enable me to marry multiple rich women and make them pay for the ability to claim that I'm having sex with them~
@banana: Gunmans "Way of the gun" is an audiobook I can recommend. Also I think it's the only one I ever listened to. ;X
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On January 11 2012 10:03 DigiGnar wrote: Besides my killer good looks, and believe me when I have to tell girls that my eyes are up here, I generally don't actually pick up chicks. More often than not, I'll make them have a crush on me and then pursue me.
Also, DaVinci had some sort of saying: "For a man to get a woman, he must think himself as a lesbian."
Waitwhat. Context? lol.
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While I do understand that you have taken on the role of the thread-priest (with squattin being the the little dwarf that pulls on everyones leg to get attention and me being the wannabe enlightened buddhist who can't stop talking or some crap like that), I find that you should stop overprojecting your values and limiting beliefs onto others as if they were facts. How can an attractive girl that meets a cool guy not hook up with him while ALSO looking or a long term relationship? If a guy does the same it's k, if a girl does it... oh wait, either she wants fun and is a slut or wants a relationship and is a saint, rite? ...
I highly suggest you read up on this topic since it's pretty damn common in todays society and annoying the fuck out of me.
While I appreciate being perceived as a moral person (I am frequently accused of the opposite), I don't mean to sound like I'm projecting my personal morals onto others. I came across a madonna-whore complex blog entry not too long ago, so I have an idea what you're referring to. For anyone interested it's here : http://postmasculine.com/the-madonnawhore-complex
I don't quite get what you're saying in the underlined part. From re-reading my previous post I don't see how I could be interpreted saying women/or men who have one night stands or are more promiscuous are sluts. My curiosity and posting in this thread stemmed from the question if anyone practicing PUA ever had any moral concerns about their doing, in regard to the manipulation/knowledge advantage they have in.. let's just call it dating. And the general feel I get is, yes, questions were asked (everyone answers their own morals questions), and for most the conclusion seems to be it's alright. Women have their tricks too when it comes to seduction, and no ones forcing others to do anything against their own will. I was re-affirming said last point.
Re the madonna-whore complex ... I see that position all the time, but I somehow doubt it's deeply routed in ones childhood. Part is insecurity of not only males, but also females, moral values from different generations - my mother for instance frequently refers to certain women as sluts. Guys who want to feel better about themselves often call girls sluts or hoes and the like. It's maybe a phase guys go through growing up. I don't personally remember ever referring to girls as a slut for their promiscuity (perceived by me). The only time I ever call someone a slut is in the bedroom when its insinuated to me that it's desired pillow talk.
Really, I don't want to be the thread-priest, give me a different title. I could be the guy who grossly overestimates his decent amount of natural game, perceiving it to be ma-ma-massive.
What I do for a living is coaching everything that has to do with communication with oneself or others... What do you promote yourself as, a communication coach? How'd you do it, over a website?
Apart from that I do appreciate your concerns that sound like my grandparents on the phone (after like 4 years they stopped, go me <3), but I have to tell you that I have no plans for the future and would never consider saving money. Life insurances are for the insane and who the hell needs a real estate while it's cheap as fuck when you can also pay rent all your life. Also all the skillzzz I've learned so far will enable me to marry multiple rich women and make them pay for the ability to claim that I'm having sex with them~
I don't mind sounding like a grandparent or parent for that matter, they're older and wiser after all. I take that as a compliment. Though, I register your defensive undertone. I wasn't lecturing...just curious about your lifestyle.
While I get the atittude of being critical why our society today is driving by/defined by money, it's also the reality. I'm not interested in making lots of money, or draw personal ambition from it. However, I for one recognise a lot of people do, and money is a necessity in this world of ours. Life insurances aren't for the insane, if you have a wife, or children one day, a pension, a life insurance is something you need to look into in case something ever happens to you, for it's your responsibility to take care of them. I think that principle has survived even the most alternative views of what a man should be.
Also there's the whole plan now to have it easier in the future. Why would you pay rent to some guy raking it in, when you can own your own place and pay off something that you own? I know you're not fully serious when you say so, but your good looks and charms won't last forever. When you're 45 even the rich old women won't be so hot on your heals I don't think. I get it, you're young and not concerned with such matters at this stage in your life. But eventually, all your friends get married, have children, talk only about houses and furniture and start regarding you as a drop out. And while you might not be affected, us men, or people in general, determine our status on how others see us, isn't that part of the whole PUA philosophy? Anyway.. I'm stearing off topic now. But I'm sure anyone with a slightly different prolonged lifestyle can confirm that eventually they have felt somewhat isolated because other people around them have become the typical model tax paying citizen.
You might know full well "you are not your fucking khakis", but your neighbours, your parents, maybe your siblings even and certainly pretty much everyone who looks at you in the street only sees you for your khakis.
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