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Hi,
I have a question about the new Terran Shredder unit for those of you that have had the chance to try some of the new stuff out. It is a Terran unit with all that this implies right? Or does it count partly as a structure or something?
If it is a unit this means that you will be able to load those bad boys up in medivacs and drop them where ever you please? Anyone else seeing a new way to quickly kill of a mineral worker line? From the videos it looks like you would have aproximately 5 seconds to remove your workers before it will be deployed and shred your poor drones to pieces.. If this is the case I foresee this to be done on any map where you spawn close by air.
I did a search on the forum but could not find anything on this topic yet.
/ Mike
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Not only drones but a good number of things that came in late( Zerglings, Queens ) to stop it would be shredded considerably too.
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Threads like this make me wonder if Blizzard put much thought into the new unit designs :/. Some units/mechanics are either really bad, or really powerful.
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
You can drop them.
The siege time is 8 game seconds, 5.76 real time seconds.
Not sure much health it would have, but ive heard it can take on 2-3 queens no problem if it gets up.
Probably imbalanced but blizzard wouldnt allow anything to get onto ladder if it could easily kill people like that (I cant see how to stop it even with instant reactions as zerg - the thing owns roaches and you would have to have them sat in your mineral line to stop it, or have hydras)
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all the more reason to go mutas and deny drops.
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I haven't tried HotS but I already heard this works. The shredder can't exact chase units down, though, so you'd really have to distract the player or exceed a players ability to multitask.
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From my recollection, the Shredder is a Terran unit built from a factory and requires an armory. In its normal state, it can move around but has no attack. When deployed, it cannot move but causes a lot of damage over a sizable area. I think it was 10 or 20 per second, but obviously this number will change as HotS continues in development.
While it seems like Shredder drops would be devastating to mineral lines, I noticed one thing that may or may not be a bug - the Shredder damage affects air units but did not go up/down cliffs.
What I mean by that is during one game, an enemy Shredder was placed on a cliff right next to my mineral line. When deployed, the graphic effect of the Shredder damage radiation covered all of my workers, but none of them died.
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Watch the TL interview with DB. Browder admits that shredder drops would devastate lower league players who don't watch the minimap. Which is why he stated that the shredder, along with everything else shown in Blizzcon, would need to be balanced.
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:27 Misanthrope wrote: all the more reason to go mutas and deny drops.
Medivacs come earlier than 1base lair mutas do, as starport has 50 second build time (im not sure of factory, but the shredder would be done before the medivac id assume)
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:28 PermaScrub wrote: Watch the TL interview with DB. Browder admits that shredder drops would devastate lower league players who don't watch the minimap. Which is why he stated that the shredder, along with everything else shown in Blizzcon, would need to be balanced.
Thats not the problem - I react fine to baneling drops etc incoming when i play PvZ even with only 1-2 secs to pull probes max, but the problem i see with this unit is TvZ, even if the zerg can see the shredder coming i doubt he could kill it before it sieged.
It does the DPS of Psi Storm in four times the radius, permanantly.
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Make it so it can't activate onto buildings. Even enemy buildings... eh? eh?
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intresting, guess we have to wait and see
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Using shredders to defend against Muta harass sounds like a better idea. Use them to encourage Mutas into taking the long way around unless they want to eat an Irradiate destroying the shredder.
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On October 25 2011 16:27 Cyro wrote: Probably imbalanced but blizzard wouldnt allow anything to get onto ladder if it could easily kill people like that
this made me smile a bit
in all honesty, dropping one shredder near each entrance to the back of the mineral line and then dropping marines in the middle to pew-pew workers.....gives me nightmares already; no way this will go live if it works as shown in the video
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I think the way to balance it would be to not let them be able to load into medivacs.
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I was under the impression it only did damage to units, not buildings- can anyone confirm/deny this either way?
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On October 25 2011 16:29 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:27 Misanthrope wrote: all the more reason to go mutas and deny drops. Medivacs come earlier than 1base lair mutas do, as starport has 50 second build time (im not sure of factory, but the shredder would be done before the medivac id assume)
If the terran does a one base all in using a shredder, I think having muta's out is the least of our problems. The long siege time should give you more than enough time to surround it with drones or zerglings and take it out unless David Kim wants to make that thing as sturdy as a planetary fortress.
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Yes they already discussed potentially making a warning sound or just making the set up time longer. It could be a pretty serious problem in lower leagues.
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On October 25 2011 16:32 Selkie wrote: I was under the impression it only did damage to units, not buildings- can anyone confirm/deny this either way?
I'm saying, make it so it can't activate, if buildings are within range.
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Against protoss it isn't too bad since shields can provide some damage buffer, but against zerg, lings are ineffective against them, and if you send a bunch of roaches or hydras, they're all coming back with half health.
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On October 25 2011 16:25 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Threads like this make me wonder if Blizzard put much thought into the new unit designs :/. Some units/mechanics are either really bad, or really powerful. Yeah the reaver was kinda OP so taxing for T players.
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:31 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:27 Cyro wrote: Probably imbalanced but blizzard wouldnt allow anything to get onto ladder if it could easily kill people like that this made me smile a bit in all honesty, dropping one shredder near each entrance to the back of the mineral line and then dropping marines in the middle to pew-pew workers.....gives me nightmares already; no way this will go live if it works as shown in the video
I was referring to the interview with dustin where he stated pretty much that they didnt want the bronze/plat guys to get killed by stuff because of their inadequacy
Gotta play more brood war mass reaver drops...
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should be a building not a unit
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:35 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:25 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Threads like this make me wonder if Blizzard put much thought into the new unit designs :/. Some units/mechanics are either really bad, or really powerful. Yeah the reaver was kinda OP.
Reaver was fine, but if you was lower apm than your opponent and/or reacted badly and/or didnt scout it could do a lot of harass based damage.
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I did not intend this as a balance whine thread. But from looking at the videos of the Shredder my impression is that it will be used in a lot of different ways. E.g. you can slow-push shredders on one front while pushing with your main army on the other to deny counter attacks, you can drop them in mineral lines and on enemy ramps, they can be used istead of missile turrets for muta defence, etc. I'm sure thare are more applications but I think that it is one of those units that will make a huge difference if they are released in the way they look in the videos (as I said I haven't really tried them myself). HotS will bring interesting times.
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I kind of want to see the shredder replace Hunter-Seeker missile. Make it into a 125 energy PDD reskin that zaps enemy units for X damage instead of zapping projectiles.
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On October 25 2011 16:36 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:35 Eppa! wrote:On October 25 2011 16:25 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Threads like this make me wonder if Blizzard put much thought into the new unit designs :/. Some units/mechanics are either really bad, or really powerful. Yeah the reaver was kinda OP. Reaver was fine, but if you was lower apm than your opponent and/or reacted badly and/or didnt scout it could do a lot of harass based damage. you just described the shredder lol
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This is what happens when game design goes like this: "Let's make something like spider mines, but not spider mines."
or in the case of hellion: "Let's make a vulture, but not the vulture"
You get shitty gameplay. Vultures were great in small numbers for harrasment, in large numbers for controling the map with mines. Hellions are countered by lings(the unit they're supposed to best against) perfectly if you have less than 4 of them. And then if you get 20 of them, a million lings can't kill you, and the terran player suddenly has the one-hit-wonder option with his potential to kill all drones in a few seconds...
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8 seconds is a bit too long for it to be viable.
A Shredder drop requires the Shredder to deploy for 8seconds after being dropped before it does its thing, and most likely you are going to expect to lose the unit.
Now compare this to a baneling drop that can wipe out 80% of your probes in a mining base the very instant the unit is dropped from the Overlord.
If Shredder drops are unforgiving then what does that make Baneling drops? Hell, even Templar drops have a much shorter time period where they need to get into position and cast the Storms to do damage and look how underused they are.
In 8seconds a Marine drop could take out all the drones at a mining base and possibly bring the hatchery to near death
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If the T drop 12 Shredders at once with 3 medivacs (assuming 4 Shredders fit into one medivac), then the opponent could be in real trouble. Can't take out 8 all at once. 4 are likely to get set up, and the overlapping DPS will.... possibly eat Ultras for breakfast.
Man, the possibilities are giving me goosebumps. But more importantly, Terran mech synergy is back! I can't help it, I must say it again and again in almost every post I make since Blizzcon.
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On October 25 2011 16:43 Setev wrote: If the T drop 8 Shredders at once with 2 medivacs, then the opponent could be in real trouble. Can't take out 8 all at once. 6 are likely to get set up, and the overlapping DPS will.... possibly eat Ultras for breakfast.
Man, the possibilities are giving me goosebumps. But more importantly, Terran mech synergy is back! I can't help it, I must say it again and again in almost every post I make since Blizzcon.
Shredder damage doesn't stack, as far as I'm aware. It's like Psi Storm in that regard.
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On October 25 2011 16:44 acker wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:43 Setev wrote: If the T drop 8 Shredders at once with 2 medivacs, then the opponent could be in real trouble. Can't take out 8 all at once. 6 are likely to get set up, and the overlapping DPS will.... possibly eat Ultras for breakfast.
Man, the possibilities are giving me goosebumps. But more importantly, Terran mech synergy is back! I can't help it, I must say it again and again in almost every post I make since Blizzcon. Shredder damage doesn't stack, as far as I'm aware. It's like Psi Storm in that regard.
Really, bummer. I knew that was too good to be true. But still, Terran mech synergy... haha.
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:38 PredY wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:36 Cyro wrote:On October 25 2011 16:35 Eppa! wrote:On October 25 2011 16:25 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Threads like this make me wonder if Blizzard put much thought into the new unit designs :/. Some units/mechanics are either really bad, or really powerful. Yeah the reaver was kinda OP. Reaver was fine, but if you was lower apm than your opponent and/or reacted badly and/or didnt scout it could do a lot of harass based damage. you just described the shredder lol
Reavers could be killed if you brought your whole army back to your base ^^
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On October 25 2011 16:43 Setev wrote: If the T drop 12 Shredders at once with 3 medivacs (assuming 4 Shredders fit into one medivac), then the opponent could be in real trouble. Can't take out 8 all at once. 4 are likely to get set up, and the overlapping DPS will.... possibly eat Ultras for breakfast.
Man, the possibilities are giving me goosebumps. But more importantly, Terran mech synergy is back! I can't help it, I must say it again and again in almost every post I make since Blizzcon.
We don't know how many shredders can be carried by dropships, it could be 1-2 max each.
Which brings up a new question for me: can overlords load up spinecrawlers?
And there's certainly many units/spells that seems OP/imba/broken, even in Brood War. You know how much damage psi storm does in that game (course it was harder to cast storms however).
I think there will have to be some changes to the shredder. I really do like it.
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On October 25 2011 16:42 Dommk wrote: 8 seconds is a bit too long for it to be viable.
A Shredder drop requires the Shredder to deploy for 8seconds after being dropped before it does its thing, and most likely you are going to expect to lose the unit.
Now compare this to a baneling drop that can wipe out 80% of your probes in a mining base the very instant the unit is dropped from the Overlord.
If Shredder drops are unforgiving them what does that make Baneling drops? Hell, even Templar drops have a much shorter time period where they need to get into position and cast the Storms to do damage and look how underused they are.
In 8seconds a Marine drop could take out all the drones at a mining base and possibly bring the hatchery to near death
True, but the Shredder will stay in place. Even if you pull all your drones in time the Shredder will stay in place. You need to kill it somehow. And you will take losses. Even roaches will die or be wounded badly. The Storms loose effect and most of the times if workers are pulled in time banelings will do some damage but not too much.
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I personally think they should remove it. Terrans have the best static defense in the game already. Turrets, bunkers, PFs, tanks when sieged and sensor towers.
Dont see it as a need or a fix for the terrans.
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Does anyone know if creep prevents it from getting into attack mode?
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Hmmm. I know you can't have units in range of the shredder to activate, but I wonder if you can have units in bunkers? If so, can't wait to try out a "Shredder bunker rush" on Zerg... tehehhehe
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balance suggestion - shredders are unable to be loaded into medivacs?
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:42 Dommk wrote: 8 seconds is a bit too long for it to be viable.
A Shredder drop requires the Shredder to deploy for 8seconds after being dropped before it does its thing, and most likely you are going to expect to lose the unit.
Now compare this to a baneling drop that can wipe out 80% of your probes in a mining base the very instant the unit is dropped from the Overlord.
If Shredder drops are unforgiving them what does that make Baneling drops? Hell, even Templar drops have a much shorter time period where they need to get into position and cast the Storms to do damage and look how underused they are.
In 8seconds a Marine drop could take out all the drones at a mining base and possibly bring the hatchery to near death
The problem with shredder drops in my eyes is the siege time and being unable to kill it... 5.76 seconds real time i beleive it was (not 1000% sure thats what i calculated it to be) but if it sieges up, thats it.
Because of its range, you literally cannot kill it with lings/drones, you will loose MASSIVE amounts of roach health trying to hit it, and if you brought back 50 mutas and one shot it, you would loose 40% hp on every muta for one shredder.
You literally cant kill 1 sieged shredder before lair unless you damage a lot of roaches (which die in some ~4 seconds real time, aoe) and if you didnt have those roaches ready before the drop happened you just cant mine from your main until they pop ~30 seconds later, which isnt THAT bad i guess, but i think the shredder is too hard to deal with to be balanced if it does get sieged.
Through intensive micro, reavers could kill small armies of dragoons with shuttle speed, but that required a lot of skill and apm, whereas the shredder is just d click siege and then go back to your base camera hoping for the best.
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Why dont Terran players just start dropping siege tanks into enemy bases? I mean, it has a faster setup time and does sick AoE damage.
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As far as it goes, it doesn't kill buildings, so just throw a pair or three of spines. This little thing will be armored for sure, so focusing it while burrowing, you will be able to counter it fine, even without removing drones from the line.
But yeah, it looks like the old pesky quote "damm, i have to deal with this shit TOO?" from zerg is back :D
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I don't get why this is so much more awesome than just a simple 8 marine drop?
I mean, 8 stimmed marines have tons of DPS? They wipe out entire worker lines in seconds. Sure marines can't shoot at all of the workers at the same time (AOE), like the shredder can, but marines can move and _follow_ the workers when they run.
Is there really such a huge difference in the amount of workers 8 stimmed microed marines do, and 1-2 shredders?
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
The difference between baneling drops and this is two fold.
Firstly, baneling drops require +2 melee which usually takes far longer to get than starport (ive seen then dropped before 5 mins quite a few times) and secondly, baneling drops are a one-time ammo deal, if you pull probes or sack 1 per baneling you are ahead, and it is over in 2-3 seconds if you react properly.
A shredder drop, best case scenario, stops all mining for like 20 seconds, and worse case scenario kills all of your workers in 1.44 seconds of real time.
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On October 25 2011 16:47 ShotgunMike wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:42 Dommk wrote: 8 seconds is a bit too long for it to be viable.
A Shredder drop requires the Shredder to deploy for 8seconds after being dropped before it does its thing, and most likely you are going to expect to lose the unit.
Now compare this to a baneling drop that can wipe out 80% of your probes in a mining base the very instant the unit is dropped from the Overlord.
If Shredder drops are unforgiving them what does that make Baneling drops? Hell, even Templar drops have a much shorter time period where they need to get into position and cast the Storms to do damage and look how underused they are.
In 8seconds a Marine drop could take out all the drones at a mining base and possibly bring the hatchery to near death True, but the Shredder will stay in place. Even if you pull all your drones in time the Shredder will stay in place. You need to kill it somehow. And you will take losses. Even roaches will die or be wounded badly. The Storms loose effect and most of the times if workers are pulled in time banelings will do some damage but not too much. The point was more about the reaction time. People have to react to a baneling drop before it gets to the mineral line. 8seconds is a really long time, you can easily warpin enough units to kill it before it can even deploy and Zerg definitely can with creep.
If you can't get rid of a Shredder in 8seconds then in the same scenario a blue flame hellion drop would completely clear you out
A Shredder drop alone would be absolute garbage. A better idea would be to drop to a MM drop with a Shredder, sending the Shredder to the mineral line whilst the MM drop distracts the army. But then again, you can do the exact same thing with just two MM drops. Terran Mech also really doesn't have units like Marine/marauder/Medivac that are a pain in the ass to kill and are insanely efficient in small numbers
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well this thing shouldnt be able to deploy on creep. but again its gonna be a turtle fest, PF with shredders O.O
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On October 25 2011 16:51 Teim wrote: Why dont Terran players just start dropping siege tanks into enemy bases? I mean, it has a faster setup time and does sick AoE damage.
because they die in split-seconds vs speedlings/chargelots....
have you seen the shredder-demo-video? they murder lings like nothing I've ever seen before
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:53 McNulty wrote: I don't get why this is so much more awesome than just a simple 8 marine drop?
I mean, 8 stimmed marines have tons of DPS? They wipe out entire worker lines in seconds. Sure marines can't shoot at all of the workers at the same time (AOE), like the shredder can, but marines can move and _follow_ the workers when they run.
Is there really such a huge difference in the amount of workers 8 stimmed microed marines do, and 1-2 shredders?
8 stimmed marines and a medivac can be cleaned up easily by a small muta flock, a small cloud of lings (20-25, very few losses) or even 1 baneling hit if they are cornered.
A shredder cannot be killed by lings, if mutas run into its range and 1shot it they will loose 40hp each (33% of their health), roaches are killed VERY quickly, and without hydras on the field at that exact moment, zerg has no way to shut down a shredder without loosing pretty much his entire army.
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On October 25 2011 16:51 Teim wrote: Why dont Terran players just start dropping siege tanks into enemy bases? I mean, it has a faster setup time and does sick AoE damage.
If you think about it, you should be able to realize why its different.
Incase you have trouble, its because tanks in a seiged position will be surrounded by drones very quickly. Which will render the tank useless. A tank unsieged can easily be cleaned up by zerglings which wouldnt work on the shredder.
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On October 25 2011 16:42 Dommk wrote: 8 seconds is a bit too long for it to be viable.
A Shredder drop requires the Shredder to deploy for 8seconds after being dropped before it does its thing, and most likely you are going to expect to lose the unit.
Now compare this to a baneling drop that can wipe out 80% of your probes in a mining base the very instant the unit is dropped from the Overlord.
If Shredder drops are unforgiving them what does that make Baneling drops? Hell, even Templar drops have a much shorter time period where they need to get into position and cast the Storms to do damage and look how underused they are.
In 8seconds a Marine drop could take out all the drones at a mining base and possibly bring the hatchery to near death
You're not thinking in real game terms here.
You can get a Shredder out at roughly the same time as you can get Medivacs. What does a Zerg typically have to deal with drops at that time? Lings. So you send a medivac with marines and a Shredder, unload them, and start sieging the Shredder behind the mineral line. When it's done, or when your Marines are threatened, you hop back into the medivac and leave. Nothing can mine at that base until a spine crawler is built or repositioned, and meanwhile the hatchery is eating 20dps.
Edit: Are we sure it does no damage to buildings?
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:54 Dommk wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:47 ShotgunMike wrote:On October 25 2011 16:42 Dommk wrote: 8 seconds is a bit too long for it to be viable.
A Shredder drop requires the Shredder to deploy for 8seconds after being dropped before it does its thing, and most likely you are going to expect to lose the unit.
Now compare this to a baneling drop that can wipe out 80% of your probes in a mining base the very instant the unit is dropped from the Overlord.
If Shredder drops are unforgiving them what does that make Baneling drops? Hell, even Templar drops have a much shorter time period where they need to get into position and cast the Storms to do damage and look how underused they are.
In 8seconds a Marine drop could take out all the drones at a mining base and possibly bring the hatchery to near death True, but the Shredder will stay in place. Even if you pull all your drones in time the Shredder will stay in place. You need to kill it somehow. And you will take losses. Even roaches will die or be wounded badly. The Storms loose effect and most of the times if workers are pulled in time banelings will do some damage but not too much. The point was more about the reaction time. People have to react to a baneling drop before it gets to the mineral line. 8seconds is a really long time, you can easily warpin enough units to kill it before it can even deploy and Zerg definitely can with creep. If you can't get rid of a Shredder in 8seconds then in the same scenario a blue flame hellion drop would completely clear you out A Shredder drop alone would be absolute garbage. A better idea would be to drop to a MM drop with a Shredder, sending the Shredder to the mineral line whilst the MM drop distracts the army. But then again, you can do the exact same thing with just two MM drops. Terran Mech also really doesn't have units like Marine/marauder/Medivac that are a pain in the ass to kill and are insanely efficient in small numbers
Warp in units?
ASSUMING your warpgates are off cooldown, warping in units takes 5 seconds.
With ZERO reaction time and warpgates off cooldown, you would have 3 seconds to kill the shredder before your units were standing in a psi storm.
I think protoss can deal with them easily due to stalkers outranging them, as can terrans with marines, but zerg is getting shafted hard.
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On October 25 2011 16:51 Teim wrote: Why dont Terran players just start dropping siege tanks into enemy bases? I mean, it has a faster setup time and does sick AoE damage.
Several reasons. A siege tank cant hit stuff in melee range if sieged, so you can easily kill it off with workers. And secondly the aoe of the shredder is alot more potent.
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It can't activate til the medivac leaves it alone, which means it's a guaranteed big investment because any attentive zerg will kill it if the medivac tries to pick it back up. You WILL lose the shredder, so you have to commit.
A zerg that watches the minimap will pull their drones away, and the shredder cannot chase them.
As far as dealing with the shredder once it actually gets up, that is probably the tricky part. It depends how much damage it does, but I can imagine it being pretty tough.
Overall I don't think it will be too hard to balance, and I don't imagine terrans doing it very often simply because you're almost guaranteed to lose the thing.
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I don't really see what is so problematic with shredder drops.
Shredders take 8 seconds to "siege up", plus the time it takes for the medivac to enter, drop them etc. i you don't react in all this time you DESERVE to lose your workers.
Add to this, the shredder is 150/150, and since it has to be sieged/burrowed to attack, you won't be able to pick it up, plus if the medivac is in the field it will deactivate. so you will lose them.
Honestly I'd rather drop 400minerals worth of marines or hellions instead of those high cost units.
- It's cheaper - You can pick them up and leave. - You are not relying on your opponent being retarded - If your opponent is retarded you will do just as much damage, if he isn't you will do more. - If you lose them it's no big deal, easier to replace (produced from reactors)
Shredder drops feel like a bad, more expensive version of baneling drops.
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I don't think that shredders will be in the game when it released with its current design. Even though it can be handled in higher leagues, people that abuses this unit in lower league will make the game too ugly for newbies and deter newcomers to the game. Hopefully they can balance it well.
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Perhaps Blizzard could just make it unable to siege up on Creep and I dont think it should hit air either, making it a viable option to use air to clean it out without hurting your unit to snipe it.
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Dustin Browder said something about using a distinct sound to alarm the player of a deploying Shredder in his vision range to aid lower league players in detecting the shredder. Don't forget that the Shredder is useless if deployed too late (if it does no damage to buildings) and can then be taken out by the correct counter army to clear the mineral line. I'm still more worried about a 5 medivac MM drop in my base, because that actually kills everything if I don't have banelings available.
I do think however, that Shredders should not be able to hit air in their field.
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On October 25 2011 16:56 Angelbelow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:51 Teim wrote: Why dont Terran players just start dropping siege tanks into enemy bases? I mean, it has a faster setup time and does sick AoE damage. If you think about it, you should be able to realize why its different. Incase you have trouble, its because tanks in a seiged position will be surrounded by drones very quickly. Which will render the tank useless. A tank unsieged can easily be cleaned up by zerglings which wouldnt work on the shredder.
So as long as we ignore the facts that: - The Shredder has an incredibly long setup time - You should spot the drop well before it is actually deployed
Then yes, your army will melt away.
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Shredders should just have relatively low hp and a really long deployment time, like spine crawler level.
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I think Dustin and Kim said that they would add a notable sound so that player can hear when a shredder sets up in their vision.
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You cannot balance the game for people who doesn't watch the minimap... Are you guys joking because i sure hope so. Maybe they should nerf all the cloaked units as well since newbies are usually terrible at dealing with them, and cannons rushes are clearly OP, and 6pool....
Newbies can't deal with a ton of shit which is exactly why they are newbies.
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On October 25 2011 16:59 Gijian wrote: Perhaps Blizzard could just make it unable to siege up on Creep and I dont think it should hit air either, making it a viable option to use air to clean it out without hurting your unit to snipe it.
If the Shredder couldn't attack air, it would be something that is completely useless in the game. Please tell me of a zerg who dosen't get mutas.......
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I mean if you see it and pull your drones to kill the shredder, then the terran looses 150/150 about the same amount a CC costs. (Gas is usually a little bit more valuable then minerals)
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On October 25 2011 17:03 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:59 Gijian wrote: Perhaps Blizzard could just make it unable to siege up on Creep and I dont think it should hit air either, making it a viable option to use air to clean it out without hurting your unit to snipe it. If the Shredder couldn't attack air, it would be something that is completely useless in the game. Please tell me of a zerg who dosen't get mutas.......
How do you suppose to zone out muta?
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why can't it just count as a structure like a sensor tower or turret?
solves everything.
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I think the shredder should be classified as "Mechanical Light Structure Unit" i'll explain why:
- structure = No longer able to be dropped, immediately solves that problem (terrans should go bio if they want to drop)
- in TvT, makes marauders much weaker vs mech as opposed to going mech as well. MM will be even more about mobility and harass, rather than straight fights
- increased ghost usage in TvT bio vs mech, if ghosts outrange shredders, their bonus against light will take them down instantly. Perhaps make it so EMP shuts them off? possibilities....
- in TvP, this will allow the new oracle to shut it down with its new ability, forcing micro akin to stasis or disruption web to break siege lines. imagine penix+oracles shutting down a huge siege+shredder defense, then pouring in with zealots and storms
- in TvZ banelings have bonus against both structure and light, so burrowed (moving) banelings could take these out and allow lings to rush forward. Also forces more scans/turrets etc.
Note: auto-turrets and nyduses are also considered "Structure Units," so it's not like we're breaking any rules.
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8+3 seconds ... if you don't react in that time the marines would have killed your eco line as well or blue flame hellions. And is nothing compared to the time banelings that can then burrow move would take. Or double fungal ... or storm ... stuff you can't flee from (well you can but the workers will clump making even better targets). The shredder is a build 1 spine/canon and your eco line is fine while you have a 8 second reaction time. If you didn't spotted the drop. I would never drop a shredder, but what i would do is run in shredders into multiple bases while i move forward with my main army, since you get the we are under attack message when its to late. (just like fungal or storm :p )
Anyway I will place a shredder in my mineral line and if the opponent attacks I'll slide my workers to the the patch that isn't covered and boom x3.
You could say its the lurker of sc2 :3. Zerg got spidermines we got the lurker mwahaha.
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On October 25 2011 16:58 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:54 Dommk wrote:On October 25 2011 16:47 ShotgunMike wrote:On October 25 2011 16:42 Dommk wrote: 8 seconds is a bit too long for it to be viable.
A Shredder drop requires the Shredder to deploy for 8seconds after being dropped before it does its thing, and most likely you are going to expect to lose the unit.
Now compare this to a baneling drop that can wipe out 80% of your probes in a mining base the very instant the unit is dropped from the Overlord.
If Shredder drops are unforgiving them what does that make Baneling drops? Hell, even Templar drops have a much shorter time period where they need to get into position and cast the Storms to do damage and look how underused they are.
In 8seconds a Marine drop could take out all the drones at a mining base and possibly bring the hatchery to near death True, but the Shredder will stay in place. Even if you pull all your drones in time the Shredder will stay in place. You need to kill it somehow. And you will take losses. Even roaches will die or be wounded badly. The Storms loose effect and most of the times if workers are pulled in time banelings will do some damage but not too much. The point was more about the reaction time. People have to react to a baneling drop before it gets to the mineral line. 8seconds is a really long time, you can easily warpin enough units to kill it before it can even deploy and Zerg definitely can with creep. If you can't get rid of a Shredder in 8seconds then in the same scenario a blue flame hellion drop would completely clear you out A Shredder drop alone would be absolute garbage. A better idea would be to drop to a MM drop with a Shredder, sending the Shredder to the mineral line whilst the MM drop distracts the army. But then again, you can do the exact same thing with just two MM drops. Terran Mech also really doesn't have units like Marine/marauder/Medivac that are a pain in the ass to kill and are insanely efficient in small numbers Warp in units? ASSUMING your warpgates are off cooldown, warping in units takes 5 seconds. With ZERO reaction time and warpgates off cooldown, you would have 3 seconds to kill the shredder before your units were standing in a psi storm. I think protoss can deal with them easily due to stalkers outranging them, as can terrans with marines, but zerg is getting shafted hard. No offense, but if it takes you 8seconds to respond to a drop then you will get shafted in many more ways by Marauders, Marines and Lings than you will with Shredders.
Speaking as a Protoss my self, I've had Nexus's killed in about the same period of time by Ling doom drops and Marauder stim hit and runs. Those kinds of tactics are generally accepted to be balanced in peoples eyes and half the time they not only clear out the Nexus but almost everything you warped in to defend it as well >_>
But yeah, as someone else said about.
If 8second deploy time is considered too much then what does that make Infestor IT spams, Baneling drops and Fungal Growth on workers? If you want to call the Shredder imbalanced then the three things I've just mentioned would have to be, by way of association, completely broken
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Let's put this into perspective. If it hit air, what units are affect? Muta don't walk on ground, they can just circumvent the unit all day long. Most the other air is already strong enough to endure it. Pheonix can lift and disable it. Banshee? You really consider using Shredder vs banshee or any form of air? If anything, I think AIR should the hard counter to shredder. Making shredder a good, ground zoning, but not air.
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On October 25 2011 17:07 Fishgle wrote: I think the shredder should be classified as "Mechanical Light Structure Unit" i'll explain why:
- structure = No longer able to be dropped, immediately solves that problem (terrans should go bio if they want to drop)
- in TvT, makes marauders much weaker vs mech as opposed to going mech as well. MM will be even more about mobility and harass, rather than straight fights
- increased ghost usage in TvT bio vs mech, if ghosts outrange shredders, their bonus against light will take them down instantly. Perhaps make it so EMP shuts them off? possibilities....
- in TvP, this will allow the new oracle to shut it down with its new ability, forcing micro akin to stasis or disruption web to break siege lines. imagine penix+oracles shutting down a huge siege+shredder defense, then pouring in with zealots and storms
- in TvZ banelings have bonus against both structure and light, so burrowed (moving) banelings could take these out and allow lings to rush forward. Also forces more scans/turrets etc.
Note: auto-turrets and nyduses are also considered "Structure Units," so it's not like we're breaking any rules.
lolwat! You want banelings to be buffed again? I don't even...
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Seconding the structure idea. The purpose of the Shredder, as far as I can tell, is to a. Maintain map control by placing them at choke points, thus necessitating either damage to your units or some sort of counter, and b. To prevent zergling run-bys [and similar]. If the Shredder is a structure, same cost, same tech reqs, it fulfils all of this without any other concerns, and is consistent with the Terran emphasis upon buildings as a part of their strategy [lift-offs, addons, bunkers, and their powerful static defence, etc.]
Happy to be told otherwise.
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On October 25 2011 16:58 BobMcJohnson wrote: Shredders take 8 seconds to "siege up", plus the time it takes for the medivac to enter, drop them etc. i you don't react in all this time you DESERVE to lose your workers.
True on higher leagues perhaps, but for us low-league players this will be a pain. Two medivacs with shredders, one drop at your ramp one at your main hatch. The Terran will just have to drop, deploy and pull the medivac back. Any player can pull that micro of, defending will be much more difficult. I guess that more experienced players might think that this is less of a problem but the effort required to employ this strategy is minimal (you don't even have to micro this thing) and defending will be more difficult.
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On October 25 2011 16:36 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 16:35 Eppa! wrote:On October 25 2011 16:25 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Threads like this make me wonder if Blizzard put much thought into the new unit designs :/. Some units/mechanics are either really bad, or really powerful. Yeah the reaver was kinda OP. Reaver was fine, but if you was lower apm than your opponent and/or reacted badly and/or didnt scout it could do a lot of harass based damage. I was being ironic
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 16:58 GGPope wrote: It can't activate til the medivac leaves it alone, which means it's a guaranteed big investment because any attentive zerg will kill it if the medivac tries to pick it back up. You WILL lose the shredder, so you have to commit.
A zerg that watches the minimap will pull their drones away, and the shredder cannot chase them.
As far as dealing with the shredder once it actually gets up, that is probably the tricky part. It depends how much damage it does, but I can imagine it being pretty tough.
Overall I don't think it will be too hard to balance, and I don't imagine terrans doing it very often simply because you're almost guaranteed to lose the thing.
A shredder will kill full HP roaches in 3.6 to 4.32 seconds, depending on the pulse timing relative to when the roaches enter the field.
Roaches are durable as hell, and i hope to god that zergs dont send ANYTHING into those fields, at those damage levels you just cant do it unless the shredder has like 40hp or something.
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On October 25 2011 17:07 Fishgle wrote: I think the shredder should be classified as "Mechanical Light Structure Unit" i'll explain why:
- structure = No longer able to be dropped, immediately solves that problem (terrans should go bio if they want to drop)
- in TvT, makes marauders much weaker vs mech as opposed to going mech as well. MM will be even more about mobility and harass, rather than straight fights
- increased ghost usage in TvT bio vs mech, if ghosts outrange shredders, their bonus against light will take them down instantly. Perhaps make it so EMP shuts them off? possibilities....
- in TvP, this will allow the new oracle to shut it down with its new ability, forcing micro akin to stasis or disruption web to break siege lines. imagine penix+oracles shutting down a huge siege+shredder defense, then pouring in with zealots and storms
- in TvZ banelings have bonus against both structure and light, so burrowed (moving) banelings could take these out and allow lings to rush forward. Also forces more scans/turrets etc.
Note: auto-turrets and nyduses are also considered "Structure Units," so it's not like we're breaking any rules. It will let terran overmax if it was a structure.
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On October 25 2011 17:10 ZorBa.G wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 17:07 Fishgle wrote: I think the shredder should be classified as "Mechanical Light Structure Unit" i'll explain why:
- structure = No longer able to be dropped, immediately solves that problem (terrans should go bio if they want to drop)
- in TvT, makes marauders much weaker vs mech as opposed to going mech as well. MM will be even more about mobility and harass, rather than straight fights
- increased ghost usage in TvT bio vs mech, if ghosts outrange shredders, their bonus against light will take them down instantly. Perhaps make it so EMP shuts them off? possibilities....
- in TvP, this will allow the new oracle to shut it down with its new ability, forcing micro akin to stasis or disruption web to break siege lines. imagine penix+oracles shutting down a huge siege+shredder defense, then pouring in with zealots and storms
- in TvZ banelings have bonus against both structure and light, so burrowed (moving) banelings could take these out and allow lings to rush forward. Also forces more scans/turrets etc.
Note: auto-turrets and nyduses are also considered "Structure Units," so it's not like we're breaking any rules. lolwat! You want banelings to be buffed again? I don't even...
? i'm not proposing that banelings get buffed. they already have bonus vs structures and light units and will have burrow movement come HotS. I'm just showing that banes will be cost effective ways of dealing with shredders, albeit at tier 3.
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I don't think the drop potential of shredders is going to be nearly as problematic as its other uses.
1. You can set up a couple shredders at entrances to your base and you will be completely immune to a ling run by.
2. Their potential in a slow push is frightening. Imagine a Terran slow push that had a few well placed shredders in front of it and behind it against Zerg. The zerg would not be able to use lings and banelings at all with its current dps, they would melt before they even made it through the shredder AoE let alone tank/marine shots. Plus a few shredders behind your push can make you virtually immune to flanks.
3. Positioning shredders at the top of ramps where zergs are likely to run lings without vision. You instantly slaughter their entire ling army if they stop looking for less than a second with its current dps.
4. I'm not sure on this one, but if battle hellions are no longer treated as a light unit when they transform Zergs ability to deal with hellions will plummet via banelings like no ones business.
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On October 25 2011 17:14 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 17:07 Fishgle wrote: I think the shredder should be classified as "Mechanical Light Structure Unit" i'll explain why:
- structure = No longer able to be dropped, immediately solves that problem (terrans should go bio if they want to drop)
- in TvT, makes marauders much weaker vs mech as opposed to going mech as well. MM will be even more about mobility and harass, rather than straight fights
- increased ghost usage in TvT bio vs mech, if ghosts outrange shredders, their bonus against light will take them down instantly. Perhaps make it so EMP shuts them off? possibilities....
- in TvP, this will allow the new oracle to shut it down with its new ability, forcing micro akin to stasis or disruption web to break siege lines. imagine penix+oracles shutting down a huge siege+shredder defense, then pouring in with zealots and storms
- in TvZ banelings have bonus against both structure and light, so burrowed (moving) banelings could take these out and allow lings to rush forward. Also forces more scans/turrets etc.
Note: auto-turrets and nyduses are also considered "Structure Units," so it's not like we're breaking any rules. It will let terran overmax if it was a structure.
Spider mines didn't cost supply. But i'm not proposing they don't cost supply. wait. this is interesting...
1. make them cost 0 supply but you can't move them once placed 2. cost supply and mobile
i'm pushing towards option 2. a light structure unit that costs supply, built at factory
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United Kingdom20154 Posts
On October 25 2011 17:14 Eppa! wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2011 17:07 Fishgle wrote: I think the shredder should be classified as "Mechanical Light Structure Unit" i'll explain why:
- structure = No longer able to be dropped, immediately solves that problem (terrans should go bio if they want to drop)
- in TvT, makes marauders much weaker vs mech as opposed to going mech as well. MM will be even more about mobility and harass, rather than straight fights
- increased ghost usage in TvT bio vs mech, if ghosts outrange shredders, their bonus against light will take them down instantly. Perhaps make it so EMP shuts them off? possibilities....
- in TvP, this will allow the new oracle to shut it down with its new ability, forcing micro akin to stasis or disruption web to break siege lines. imagine penix+oracles shutting down a huge siege+shredder defense, then pouring in with zealots and storms
- in TvZ banelings have bonus against both structure and light, so burrowed (moving) banelings could take these out and allow lings to rush forward. Also forces more scans/turrets etc.
Note: auto-turrets and nyduses are also considered "Structure Units," so it's not like we're breaking any rules. It will let terran overmax if it was a structure.
I dont mean to balance whine but:
You want to make ghosts good against TERRAN too?
No offense there, but ghost mech is currently DESTROYING the bests zergs in the world, and it is common knowledge that EMP is borderline broken vs protoss if not already there in a lot of situations.
TLO plays mech really well at ~40 grandmaster and uses ghosts for nukes a lot for positional reasons, if they disabled a core unit with EMP, too....
Also in GSL finals, MMA played bio vs MVP's mech every game and used nukes to force unsieges atleast once, winning 4-1
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Given the time it takes to siege up, the heavy cost to build, and the fact that it could potentially do no damage at all if your opponent reacts, I don't see shredder drops being better than marines or hellions at high level play. They'll likely get a sound like nyduses to help out low level players as well. That said I still dislike the unit even though it prolly wont be a broken cheese, Terrans have the best map control already and frankly a PF and a handful of marines can defend an expo without needing to commit supply to a unit that doesnt actually fight. I could see it being used to control space during big battles though, which would at least be interesting, but still not something tanks don't already do
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Netherlands19121 Posts
Going to close this, useless theorycrafting for a unit that is not even out yet. Try again in beta with data to support. (But yeah that shit vs the mineral line worked @ blizzcon).
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