with zerg mechanics, i feel like the zerg player can react effectively by producing an equal number of corruptors to pheonix - there's no contest who would win (pheonix and corruptors cost the same and have equal range)
My problem with the range buff to the Phoenix - Page 2
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JonnyClark
United Kingdom79 Posts
with zerg mechanics, i feel like the zerg player can react effectively by producing an equal number of corruptors to pheonix - there's no contest who would win (pheonix and corruptors cost the same and have equal range) | ||
Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 20 2012 04:59 Active.815 wrote: Protip: Corruptors can move and have an ability that increases damage dealt. Important details: not as fast as phoenix, and even with corruption, cannons still do more damage. | ||
baba1
Canada355 Posts
Even if they don't take shots from mutas it will take them at least 2 minutes to clear the sky and an enourmous amount of micro. That's like saying vikings can kill anything in the air because their have 9 range. I see the short ranged corruptors beat them daily. Having the potential to kill everything and actually killing everything is 2 very different things when you get in the battle. | ||
GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:04 Jermstuddog wrote: Important details: not as fast as phoenix, and even with corruption, cannons still do more damage. Yeah, phoenixes are faster than almost everything, but not everybody's going to be microing like a god and corruption buffs damage from everything on the hydras. And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons. | ||
Dalguno
United States2446 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:14 Active.815 wrote: Yeah, phoenixes are faster than almost everything, but not everybody's going to be microing like a god and corruption buffs damage from everything on the hydras. And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons. Saying people are going to mess up their micro is hardly a way of arguing. Corruptors help keep mutas alive, but not so much killing phoenix. You need infestors for that. | ||
Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:14 Active.815 wrote: And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons. LOL Cannons have 100 more hp than corruptors, but i guess details like that don't matter. | ||
ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
In fact, I legitimately think that the Phoenix upgrade will just make Mutalisks stronger. Zerg goes mutas, stops at 9-12, and smoothly transitions into a different tech route while denying scouting and on the 5 bases that the Mutas let them get onto. BAM Zergs realize that Mutas are still awesome and Protosses realize that the Phoenix upgrade had no purpose in the first place. | ||
Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
Surprising P with muta will still be very good now and probably be a win most of the time but Z can't just go to stupid 40+ muta balls and stomp P by basetrading without ever facing them head on. Mass muta is not a fun strategy from a player point of view and a spectator point of view, it being nerfed is fine really. I don't think this changes balance too much either, zerg has a huge arsenal of tactics still and only lost 1 slight part. A surprise flock of muta's will still be as good as ever and if P doesn't have stargate I think it's unlikely they'll be able to get stargate, beacon and the upgrade in response to the muta's. Also corruptors still have the same range as these new phoenixes so adding in a few corruptors when P goes for the fleat beacon might be a perfectly viable option to deal with the phoenix kiting. | ||
rEalGuapo
Germany832 Posts
On February 20 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote: Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS. You are completely right... no the other thing.. wrong. Yes, you are completely wrong, just because YOU lost a game using Mutas recently doesn't mean the range upgrade will make them worthless. Seriously. When Mutas were first "countered" using Pheonix, Zerg always got like like 1/4 corruptors 3/4 Mutas, because the corruptors are incredibly good vs Phoenix, plus if you try to stay out of range the corruptors will still be able to fire all the time. Now guess what, Zerg found out that with a little micro you can still win Mutas vs Phoenix np. That is because they can also shoot without getting slower and you know, the back and forth dance. The patch will not change as much as many people think, investing in a lot of Phoenix is always a great risk since a few fungals or too many hydras will just shred them with the Zerg losing like 5% of the cost of the Phoenix. I think you are totally overreacting, due to your own bad experience that has nothing to do with the game. Please close this farce. | ||
GTPGlitch
5061 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote: LOL Cannons have 100 more hp than corruptors, but i guess details like that don't matter. lol. Cannons are tanky when compared to mutas. Corruptors are tanky when compared to phoenix, because phoenixes are weak AA against non-light things. | ||
K3Nyy
United States1961 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote: LOL Cannons have 100 more hp than corruptors, but i guess details like that don't matter. Phoenix do more damage vs a Corrupter than mutas vs cannons? I can't believe you're even arguing stuff like this. All your arguments so far make it sound like you can't ever do anything with Mutas to a Protoss and that you HAVE to engage a Protoss with your Mutas. You said a good Protoss will never lose to mutas, apparently GSL Protoss are not good enough, am I right? Ugh.. somehow the one thing that's really strong in ZvP right now, you make it sound like it's underpowered. | ||
ShatterZer0
United States1843 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:24 Markwerf wrote: Zerg succesfully surprising protoss with muta is a near free win now. You get to kill some probes and you can continue massing muta which basically give completely map control and a very easy win on big maps as it allows Z to take every base on the map. Surprising P with muta will still be very good now and probably be a win most of the time but Z can't just go to stupid 40+ muta balls and stomp P by basetrading without ever facing them head on. Mass muta is not a fun strategy from a player point of view and a spectator point of view, it being nerfed is fine really. I don't think this changes balance too much either, zerg has a huge arsenal of tactics still and only lost 1 slight part. A surprise flock of muta's will still be as good as ever and if P doesn't have stargate I think it's unlikely they'll be able to get stargate, beacon and the upgrade in response to the muta's. Also corruptors still have the same range as these new phoenixes so adding in a few corruptors when P goes for the fleat beacon might be a perfectly viable option to deal with the phoenix kiting. Getting surprised by mutas just means the Protoss sucked/was so far behind in tech that he deserved to lose. | ||
Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On February 20 2012 05:40 K3Nyy wrote: Phoenix do more damage vs a Corrupter than mutas vs cannons? I can't believe you're even arguing stuff like this. All your arguments so far make it sound like you can't ever do anything with Mutas to a Protoss and that you HAVE to engage a Protoss with your Mutas. You said a good Protoss will never lose to mutas, apparently GSL Protoss are not good enough, am I right? Ugh.. somehow the one thing that's really strong in ZvP right now, you make it sound like it's underpowered. I didn't say never lose, where did I say never lose. If you get behind, you're behind, and mutas are good at putting you behind. but you know what, lets throw it out there. After 1.4.3, a GSL level protoss will never lose to mutas. | ||
PandaTank
South Africa255 Posts
tl;dr, the range upgrade is completely irrelevent and a non-factor at high levels. It is completely justified for lower level players. | ||
getSome[703]
United States753 Posts
On February 20 2012 04:09 Elsid wrote: In my given scenario of 40 mutas vs 3 phoenix, the mutas can fly pretty much wherever they like, but 1 mutalisk will be dying roughly every 3 seconds and there is no way to stop it without intervention from some other unit. I think the "other unit" you might be looking for is the corrupter.. Make three and suddenly microing phoenix to kill mutas while staying out of range of their range while eating corrupter attacks becomes very difficult | ||
mordk
Chile8385 Posts
You state that mass phoenix can beatdown mass muta. True, I will not argue that point. However, you fail to mention that the first wave of mutas comes in numbers of 7-10, while phoenix are built one by one, or 2 by 2 if you make a gigantic resource investment that will leave you vulnerable to almost anything. Why is this so important? Because since phoenix will always be at a number disadvantage at the start of the fight, you can cripple their numbers one by one and stop Protoss from getting higher numbers extremely easily. There's no way to fight back for Protoss right now, not with phoenix. Because of this simple thing, Protoss can only fight mutas with blink stalkers/templars. Getting a range upgrade will mean that phoenix can survive the initial number disadvantage if well microed and thus bring an advantage to the Protoss player if he can make the first phoenix survive. After than phase, it's up to the Zerg to land a good fungal, which is pretty much the same as it is now. Actually, I'm more interested in seeing how this change impacts PvT, and how much more powerful a quick range-phoenix harass can be. Though it's probably too much of an investment to be actually viable, | ||
OmniEulogy
Canada6588 Posts
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
Stop whining, modify strategy, move on. | ||
GlintFox
United States275 Posts
On February 20 2012 04:16 Rucho wrote: Despite how you guys might feel about mutas, what jermstuddog says is true. Range 6 phoenixes against mutas will like... slow roaches off creep versus "stim" thors. when one unit is faster and has greater range, AND doesn't even have to stop to shoot, said unit can kite forever. phoenixes are already cost effective against mutas. For the cost and supply, phoenixes are way better at fighting in the air. The issue is that it's hard to gauge how many phoenixes to make. What if the zerg makes 10 mutas, having 8 phoenixes is an overcommitment. If the zerg makes 32 mutas, then 8 phoenixes get owned. And it's hard to tell how many mutas they're making until they pop out of the eggs. You guys should see how badly Genius shut down nestea's mutas by using upgraded phoenixes. I think there is still much to explore. This upgrade, if viable, makes mutas a huge liability in the late game. I agree with this. I don't think it's an issue of "no option" of dealing with muta's and muta's being overpowered VS toss, its more-so an issue that Protoss havent yet figured out how to deal with them. I don't often see mutas just overpowering on the pro levels. On the lower levels of ladder anything can happen and people rarely know how to respond in general. I see the problem as Protoss rarely invests into Pheonix defense in the first place if they scouted a spire. It comes down to a simple ZvZ analogy to me, Red Zerg goes muta's while Blue Zerg gets hydras that can teleport around that lets say is losing. Now Blue did not have to go with the Hydras, they could of got their own air tech and challenge the other player based on that and upgrades. What I'm getting at is this argument reminds me of a lot of the arguments in beta or how a lot of people see the Protoss deathball. People tend to get rolled over by it tons of times until they LEARN how to deal with it. Once you know how to effectively deal with it, it isn't nearly as much of a problem as it was before. As stated above me, there is still much to explore in the game. That's just my opinion | ||
DreamChaser
1649 Posts
Problem solved if the toss goes heavy air guess what? They have no ground force which means that you can go Hydra or just bust the them with roaches. How do i know this works? Because when i try to go air this is what happens to me. Also Zergs use Mutalisk just for map control and getting up bases, by the time a toss has 5 phoenix's and a fleet beacon all upgraded i am sure the Zerg will be switching to Ultralisk or BL | ||
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