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For those who don't know, here is a copy of the buff Blizzard has set up for the Phoenix in 1.4.3
Phoenix now has a range upgrade at the Fleet Beacon In the past, we’ve discussed whether protoss needed a more immediate change to give them additional ways of dealing with mutalisks in PvZ, or whether it was more appropriate to make changes to that matchup in Heart of the Swarm. After investigating, testing, and reviewing both community and pro feedback, we’ve decided to include a change in this patch.
The phoenix will now have 6 attack range after purchasing an upgrade, which should allow them to more easily deal with a large number of mutalisks. In the previous patch, when protoss players attempted to move their armies out across the map, their bases became extremely vulnerable. Existing options to cope with massed mutalisks were costly and not always effective. This range upgrade should help even the odds by giving protoss players the option to reactively build phoenixes in smaller numbers, and with some micro, allow them to more efficiently defend against mutalisk swarms. Upgraded phoenixes should also offer protoss players the potential for better map control in the PvZ match up.
Still, we also wanted to make sure that producing mutalisks in PvZ remains a viable strategy, and believe that it is. While it might not be a good idea to brute force a protoss opponent with a ton of mutalisks, pairing them with units such as infestors and/or corruptors will help counter the advantage the new range upgrade provides.
So... lets break it down.
Protoss can't effectively deal with Mutalisks.
The phoenix get a +2 range buff at the fleet beacon which lets them effectively kill infinity Mutas with minimal investment due to their superior speed, health, and damage output.
Still, they think that Mutas will be viable when there's a unit flying around that is faster, and better than they are.
So... problem #1 is that I highly doubt Mutalisks will remain viable after said upgrade takes hold.
Phoenix already cost-effectively beat the crap out of Mutalisks in the current game. The only problem with them is that Protoss doesn't like massing them. They make for great harass and are hard to kill. The only real counter Zerg has is fungal growth, which typically involves sacrificing an infestor to land it.
Phoenix in their current iteration are fine, if not a bit limited in use. They do however accomplish everything that they were designed to, and when high-level Protoss use them in PvZ, Mutalisks become a non-issue.
Now, after the change, it's going to be the case where any Protoss can make 3 phoenix and an infinite number of mutas become a non issue. To put it in resource terms, Protoss can invest in fleet beacon (300/200) the upgrade, (lets just assume it's 200/200), and 3 phoenix (450/300) for a grand total of 950/700 and 40 mutalisks (4000/4000) will not be able to leave their base without immediately starting to get picked off without any hope of retaliating against these 3 phoenix.
Now, let's talk about their justification for why mutas will still be viable.
"While it might not be a good idea to brute force a protoss opponent with a ton of mutalisks, pairing them with units such as infestors and/or corruptors will help counter the advantage the new range upgrade provides."
Let's apply the same logic to blink stalkers:
"While it might not be a good idea to brute force a zerg opponent with a ton of stalkers, pairing them with units such as sentries and/or colossi will help counter the advantage the new range upgrade provides."
That sounds good and all, but it's not true when you apply the same logic to the stalker. The stalker the core of the entire Protoss army due to its mobility, flexibility, and cost-effectiveness vs pretty much every Zerg unit. But somehow, when Zerg gets a unit that mirrors the effectiveness of the Stalker, we need to provide Protoss with a buff that completely shuts the unit down unless you include other tech to counter balance the wild advantage?
I see the argument coming OMG FUNGAL!, but how often do you see protoss players lose entire stalker armies to pure fungal? fungal is the counter/balance that I have to apply in order to hold stalkers off along with my massive army off Zerglings and Roaches, it is not a 1-stop shop like the phoenix is set to become.
In all, I think this nerf is stupid and horribly thought out. There is nothing wrong with the mutalisks in PvZ, I don't see it destroying the competitive scene, I see noobs on the ladder getting annoyed when they have no idea what to do. Well, Blizzard, the Zerg noobs have no idea how to handle blink stalkers either, I guess we should give roaches a +2 range upgrade as well.
GG
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Please just delete this blog because this is the worst discussion about Phoenix range buff that i've ever seen. Totally biased and not even open to discussion.
0/5 rating
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On February 20 2012 03:54 Jermstuddog wrote: OMG FUNGAL!
use this same logic you applied to stalkers to any protoss player who attempts to mass phoenix and you -will- see them lose their entire army.
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I'm pretty excited for this change. They might make some tweaks to it first or even discard but I think it'll make for some really exciting air battles. Phoenix are a dynamic unit that along with the warpprism has made PvZ extremely exciting recently and I want to incentivize players to use them. And I think it's a bad thing both competitively and from a spectator point of view when massing a single unit is ever the best strategy. Forcing zergs to be creative with mixed air compositions could create something like the airbattles we see in TvT with BC/Viking/Banshee/Raven fleets.
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On February 20 2012 04:05 Suichoy wrote: I'm pretty excited for this change. They might make some tweaks to it first or even discard but I think it'll make for some really exciting air battles. Phoenix are a dynamic unit that along with the warpprism has made PvZ extremely exciting recently and I want to incentivize players to use them. And I think it's a bad thing both competitively and from a spectator point of view when massing a single unit is ever the best strategy. Forcing zergs to be creative with mixed air compositions could create something like the airbattles we see in TvT with BC/Viking/Banshee/Raven fleets.
Sorry, but I don't see these "exciting air battles" in the future. I see mutas never being made in numbers > 12. They're just not worth it when the Phoenix shuts them down with infinite cost-effectiveness.
So, in the end, the upgrade will almost never be used because mutas will almost never be used. Gratz Blizzard, you have effectively killed a strategy (and the viability of an entire unit) by introducing another upgrade that will in turn also be worthless.
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While I do think think this change is quite hamfisted and done in such a non-elegant manner this has to be the worst analysis of it I've read.
Do you honestly think that 3 Phoenix are going to somehow stop a ball of mutas harassing your base? god no , the mutas will merely ignore them.
On the contrary though it is sorta a stupid change cos it just straight up buffs the range of phoenix by 2 , this is so inelegant and just requires minimal control to deal with mutas.
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On February 20 2012 04:04 shogeki wrote:use this same logic you applied to stalkers to any protoss player who attempts to mass phoenix and you -will- see them lose their entire army.
This is irrelevant, as massing most any single unit leaves you open to being completely crushed by another single unit.
Massing anything that can't shoot up opens one up to Air rushes, Massing extremely low tech opens one up to being countered by higher tech splash units.
Massing a single unit in a viable manner is a very rare occurrence, it does not need to be applied to the Phoenix. But it does work for both the Stalker and the Mutalisks in the same MU.
The thing I don't get is how Blizzard sees a problem with one of these and not the other. By the very same logic, these 6 and 7 gate stalker timings should not be viable in PvZ, and yet we see them working at the pro level and all over the ladder.
If Blizzard is willing to fix one, why not apply the same logic to all?
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On February 20 2012 04:09 Elsid wrote: While I do think think this change is quite hamfisted and done in such a non-elegant manner this has to be the worst analysis of it I've read.
Do you honestly think that 3 Phoenix are going to somehow stop a ball of mutas harassing your base? god no , the mutas will merely ignore them.
On the contrary though it is sorta a stupid change cos it just straight up buffs the range of phoenix by 2 , this is so inelegant and just requires minimal control to deal with mutas.
I never said it would stop the mutas from harassing your base, but do you know how many phoenix shots it takes to kill a mutalisk?
If you don't I'll help you out, throwing upgrades out, 7 shots is guaranteed to kill a muta.
For comparison, it takes ~20 shots for mutas to kill a phoenix.
In my given scenario of 40 mutas vs 3 phoenix, the mutas can fly pretty much wherever they like, but 1 mutalisk will be dying roughly every 3 seconds and there is no way to stop it without intervention from some other unit.
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Despite how you guys might feel about mutas, what jermstuddog says is true. Range 6 phoenixes against mutas will like... slow roaches off creep versus "stim" thors. when one unit is faster and has greater range, AND doesn't even have to stop to shoot, said unit can kite forever.
phoenixes are already cost effective against mutas. For the cost and supply, phoenixes are way better at fighting in the air. The issue is that it's hard to gauge how many phoenixes to make. What if the zerg makes 10 mutas, having 8 phoenixes is an overcommitment. If the zerg makes 32 mutas, then 8 phoenixes get owned. And it's hard to tell how many mutas they're making until they pop out of the eggs.
You guys should see how badly Genius shut down nestea's mutas by using upgraded phoenixes. I think there is still much to explore. This upgrade, if viable, makes mutas a huge liability in the late game.
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Shoulda just buffed cannon AA*2 vs light and a bit more range on cannons vs AA. Actually I don't like this buff. An upgrade and fleet beacon is nowhere near what an immediate response to mutas would have to be. Ah well.
Pvz mutas is one of the reasons I dread playing this game.
I've gone into unit testers to try to determine what cost effectively beats mutalisk. I recall only pure phoenix and cannons doing it satisfactorily.
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I thought it was 5 range, but 6? T_T Mutas won't be viable anymore as a mainstay of the army, only for harass. I don't know how Blizz thinks that it'll still be viable. Mutas have never been meant to fight straight up against a protoss army (at least with both armies maxed) unless there are a ton of spines in the battle. They're meant to force the protoss army to split up, and weaken it, snipe buildings, probes, nexus. I dunno. They're really good as of now, against toss, but I feel like it's because protoss players have a hard time dealing with them (because yeah, it's very difficult).
Something needs to be done, but a +2 range buff? That kills any chance of me making more than 12 mutas against toss again.
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Terrible blog post. Your whole argument is based around any scrub being able to infinitely kite mutas. That's going to get easier, but it won't become easy unless your name is kim taek yong.
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Everytime I see this guy talk about mutas, it turns out to be an extremely biased post. You can counter Mutas with reactive Phoenixes? High level Protoss not having trouble with Mutas?
I do agree though that Phoenix buff will make massing mutas impossible now though and that's kind of not the way it should be. I'd like there to be more of a micro battle instead of "hard counters" but I guess that's Blizzard's trend lately.
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rofl. You have a blog against every buff ever to any non zerg-unit dude. And you also complain about rocks, that everybody has to deal with.
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On February 20 2012 04:39 m3rciless wrote: Terrible blog post. Your whole argument is based around any scrub being able to infinitely kite mutas. That's going to get easier, but it won't become easy unless your name is kim taek yong. No, you described the actual situation, but with the upgrade 5/6 phoenix will kill any number of mutas with little skill required since they are faster/+3 range/auto attack. That's an inelegant fix to say the least.
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On February 20 2012 04:43 Active.815 wrote: rofl. You have a blog against every buff ever to any non zerg-unit dude. And you also complain about rocks, that everybody has to deal with.
Actually, I mostly complained about the OPness of Terran, and specifically the Marine, which Blizzard has acknowledged is OP but chosen to nerf everything BUT the marine for god knows why. Regardless, Blizzard has agreed with me for the past year.
As far as rocks, I have argued against rocks on the 3rd base, which most intelligent people agree is bad map design. I have no problem with them blocking off pathways or narrowing ramps. Low-and-behold, this is the first season that I can actually veto all of Blizzards old, terrible maps and my rating sky rockets. GM here I come...
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idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game)
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On February 20 2012 04:53 JonnyClark wrote: idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game)
Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area.
Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS.
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On February 20 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:53 JonnyClark wrote: idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game) Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS.
Protip: Corruptors can move and have an ability that increases damage dealt.
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ok sure, but using corruptors effectively makes positioning the mutas (and for the opponent, pheonix) a lot more important.
with zerg mechanics, i feel like the zerg player can react effectively by producing an equal number of corruptors to pheonix - there's no contest who would win (pheonix and corruptors cost the same and have equal range)
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On February 20 2012 04:59 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On February 20 2012 04:53 JonnyClark wrote: idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game) Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS. Protip: Corruptors can move and have an ability that increases damage dealt.
Important details: not as fast as phoenix, and even with corruption, cannons still do more damage.
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I really doubt 3 pheonix will have the dps to kill 40 mutalisks before anything bad happens to the protoss. Even if they don't take shots from mutas it will take them at least 2 minutes to clear the sky and an enourmous amount of micro.
That's like saying vikings can kill anything in the air because their have 9 range. I see the short ranged corruptors beat them daily.
Having the potential to kill everything and actually killing everything is 2 very different things when you get in the battle.
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On February 20 2012 05:04 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:59 Active.815 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On February 20 2012 04:53 JonnyClark wrote: idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game) Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS. Protip: Corruptors can move and have an ability that increases damage dealt. Important details: not as fast as phoenix, and even with corruption, cannons still do more damage.
Yeah, phoenixes are faster than almost everything, but not everybody's going to be microing like a god and corruption buffs damage from everything on the hydras. And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons.
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On February 20 2012 05:14 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:04 Jermstuddog wrote:On February 20 2012 04:59 Active.815 wrote:On February 20 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On February 20 2012 04:53 JonnyClark wrote: idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game) Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS. Protip: Corruptors can move and have an ability that increases damage dealt. Important details: not as fast as phoenix, and even with corruption, cannons still do more damage. Yeah, phoenixes are faster than almost everything, but not everybody's going to be microing like a god and corruption buffs damage from everything on the hydras. And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons.
Saying people are going to mess up their micro is hardly a way of arguing. Corruptors help keep mutas alive, but not so much killing phoenix. You need infestors for that.
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On February 20 2012 05:14 Active.815 wrote: And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons.
LOL
Cannons have 100 more hp than corruptors, but i guess details like that don't matter.
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the change doesn't even matter... if a Protoss has had enough gas to invest into phoenixes, multiple stargates, a Fleet Beacon, an upgrade (at least 100 gas), and STILL isn't dead in the water, then the Zerg deserves to lose.
In fact, I legitimately think that the Phoenix upgrade will just make Mutalisks stronger. Zerg goes mutas, stops at 9-12, and smoothly transitions into a different tech route while denying scouting and on the 5 bases that the Mutas let them get onto. BAM Zergs realize that Mutas are still awesome and Protosses realize that the Phoenix upgrade had no purpose in the first place.
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Zerg succesfully surprising protoss with muta is a near free win now. You get to kill some probes and you can continue massing muta which basically give completely map control and a very easy win on big maps as it allows Z to take every base on the map. Surprising P with muta will still be very good now and probably be a win most of the time but Z can't just go to stupid 40+ muta balls and stomp P by basetrading without ever facing them head on. Mass muta is not a fun strategy from a player point of view and a spectator point of view, it being nerfed is fine really. I don't think this changes balance too much either, zerg has a huge arsenal of tactics still and only lost 1 slight part. A surprise flock of muta's will still be as good as ever and if P doesn't have stargate I think it's unlikely they'll be able to get stargate, beacon and the upgrade in response to the muta's. Also corruptors still have the same range as these new phoenixes so adding in a few corruptors when P goes for the fleat beacon might be a perfectly viable option to deal with the phoenix kiting.
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On February 20 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:53 JonnyClark wrote: idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game) Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS.
You are completely right... no the other thing.. wrong.
Yes, you are completely wrong, just because YOU lost a game using Mutas recently doesn't mean the range upgrade will make them worthless.
Seriously. When Mutas were first "countered" using Pheonix, Zerg always got like like 1/4 corruptors 3/4 Mutas, because the corruptors are incredibly good vs Phoenix, plus if you try to stay out of range the corruptors will still be able to fire all the time. Now guess what, Zerg found out that with a little micro you can still win Mutas vs Phoenix np. That is because they can also shoot without getting slower and you know, the back and forth dance. The patch will not change as much as many people think, investing in a lot of Phoenix is always a great risk since a few fungals or too many hydras will just shred them with the Zerg losing like 5% of the cost of the Phoenix.
I think you are totally overreacting, due to your own bad experience that has nothing to do with the game.
Please close this farce.
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On February 20 2012 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:14 Active.815 wrote: And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons. LOL Cannons have 100 more hp than corruptors, but i guess details like that don't matter.
lol. Cannons are tanky when compared to mutas. Corruptors are tanky when compared to phoenix, because phoenixes are weak AA against non-light things.
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On February 20 2012 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:14 Active.815 wrote: And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons. LOL Cannons have 100 more hp than corruptors, but i guess details like that don't matter.
Phoenix do more damage vs a Corrupter than mutas vs cannons?
I can't believe you're even arguing stuff like this. All your arguments so far make it sound like you can't ever do anything with Mutas to a Protoss and that you HAVE to engage a Protoss with your Mutas. You said a good Protoss will never lose to mutas, apparently GSL Protoss are not good enough, am I right?
Ugh.. somehow the one thing that's really strong in ZvP right now, you make it sound like it's underpowered.
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On February 20 2012 05:24 Markwerf wrote: Zerg succesfully surprising protoss with muta is a near free win now. You get to kill some probes and you can continue massing muta which basically give completely map control and a very easy win on big maps as it allows Z to take every base on the map. Surprising P with muta will still be very good now and probably be a win most of the time but Z can't just go to stupid 40+ muta balls and stomp P by basetrading without ever facing them head on. Mass muta is not a fun strategy from a player point of view and a spectator point of view, it being nerfed is fine really. I don't think this changes balance too much either, zerg has a huge arsenal of tactics still and only lost 1 slight part. A surprise flock of muta's will still be as good as ever and if P doesn't have stargate I think it's unlikely they'll be able to get stargate, beacon and the upgrade in response to the muta's. Also corruptors still have the same range as these new phoenixes so adding in a few corruptors when P goes for the fleat beacon might be a perfectly viable option to deal with the phoenix kiting.
Getting surprised by mutas just means the Protoss sucked/was so far behind in tech that he deserved to lose.
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On February 20 2012 05:40 K3Nyy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 05:19 Jermstuddog wrote:On February 20 2012 05:14 Active.815 wrote: And Corruptors are way tankier than cannons. LOL Cannons have 100 more hp than corruptors, but i guess details like that don't matter. Phoenix do more damage vs a Corrupter than mutas vs cannons? I can't believe you're even arguing stuff like this. All your arguments so far make it sound like you can't ever do anything with Mutas to a Protoss and that you HAVE to engage a Protoss with your Mutas. You said a good Protoss will never lose to mutas, apparently GSL Protoss are not good enough, am I right? Ugh.. somehow the one thing that's really strong in ZvP right now, you make it sound like it's underpowered.
I didn't say never lose, where did I say never lose.
If you get behind, you're behind, and mutas are good at putting you behind.
but you know what, lets throw it out there.
After 1.4.3, a GSL level protoss will never lose to mutas.
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The range upgrade will never be used at a tournament level. It is too much of an investment. The reason pheonix are not a good counter to mutalisks, is because unless you are already producing them at the time the zerg creates his first 7\8 Mutas, you will never have sufficient numbers. This change is aimed at the lower level players, and in my opinion is completely justified. Even some of the strongest protoss have trouble holding off muta's and protecting all 3 bases, while the zerg freely takes the whole map with little to no effort required. The skill-required to potential-damage ratio is completely skewed in the favour of zerg. Making muta's incredibly 'overpowered' at lower levels. tl;dr, the range upgrade is completely irrelevent and a non-factor at high levels. It is completely justified for lower level players.
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On February 20 2012 04:09 Elsid wrote:
In my given scenario of 40 mutas vs 3 phoenix, the mutas can fly pretty much wherever they like, but 1 mutalisk will be dying roughly every 3 seconds and there is no way to stop it without intervention from some other unit.
I think the "other unit" you might be looking for is the corrupter.. Make three and suddenly microing phoenix to kill mutas while staying out of range of their range while eating corrupter attacks becomes very difficult
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The big thing you're missing is that as of now there is one reason why phoenix are not effective at all vs mutas:
You state that mass phoenix can beatdown mass muta. True, I will not argue that point. However, you fail to mention that the first wave of mutas comes in numbers of 7-10, while phoenix are built one by one, or 2 by 2 if you make a gigantic resource investment that will leave you vulnerable to almost anything. Why is this so important? Because since phoenix will always be at a number disadvantage at the start of the fight, you can cripple their numbers one by one and stop Protoss from getting higher numbers extremely easily. There's no way to fight back for Protoss right now, not with phoenix. Because of this simple thing, Protoss can only fight mutas with blink stalkers/templars.
Getting a range upgrade will mean that phoenix can survive the initial number disadvantage if well microed and thus bring an advantage to the Protoss player if he can make the first phoenix survive. After than phase, it's up to the Zerg to land a good fungal, which is pretty much the same as it is now.
Actually, I'm more interested in seeing how this change impacts PvT, and how much more powerful a quick range-phoenix harass can be. Though it's probably too much of an investment to be actually viable,
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My issue with the upgrade isn't so much the way it will deal with the current game play but the fact that if you go based on reactionary measures to get the phx and upgrade... blink stalkers and high templar will shut down the timing window for mutalisk harass much earlier than making a stargate - fleet beacon - upgrades and then making phoenix on top of that. The timing window for mutalisk harass I can't see going down by much based on this change unless you open with phx in mind.
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Zergs have things too good for too long. Stop whining, modify strategy, move on.
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On February 20 2012 04:16 Rucho wrote: Despite how you guys might feel about mutas, what jermstuddog says is true. Range 6 phoenixes against mutas will like... slow roaches off creep versus "stim" thors. when one unit is faster and has greater range, AND doesn't even have to stop to shoot, said unit can kite forever.
phoenixes are already cost effective against mutas. For the cost and supply, phoenixes are way better at fighting in the air. The issue is that it's hard to gauge how many phoenixes to make. What if the zerg makes 10 mutas, having 8 phoenixes is an overcommitment. If the zerg makes 32 mutas, then 8 phoenixes get owned. And it's hard to tell how many mutas they're making until they pop out of the eggs.
You guys should see how badly Genius shut down nestea's mutas by using upgraded phoenixes. I think there is still much to explore. This upgrade, if viable, makes mutas a huge liability in the late game.
I agree with this. I don't think it's an issue of "no option" of dealing with muta's and muta's being overpowered VS toss, its more-so an issue that Protoss havent yet figured out how to deal with them. I don't often see mutas just overpowering on the pro levels. On the lower levels of ladder anything can happen and people rarely know how to respond in general. I see the problem as Protoss rarely invests into Pheonix defense in the first place if they scouted a spire. It comes down to a simple ZvZ analogy to me, Red Zerg goes muta's while Blue Zerg gets hydras that can teleport around that lets say is losing. Now Blue did not have to go with the Hydras, they could of got their own air tech and challenge the other player based on that and upgrades. What I'm getting at is this argument reminds me of a lot of the arguments in beta or how a lot of people see the Protoss deathball. People tend to get rolled over by it tons of times until they LEARN how to deal with it. Once you know how to effectively deal with it, it isn't nearly as much of a problem as it was before.
As stated above me, there is still much to explore in the game. That's just my opinion
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You make it seem like suddenly phoenix are going to ruin the game. They wont, see protoss can only make phoenix's so fast. Now Zerg on the other hand can pop 10 mutas at a time. OR if they see Toss going heaving phoenix tech switch to Hydralisk, that is the advantage of Zerg being able to tech switch on a dime while toss has to slowly make changes.
Problem solved if the toss goes heavy air guess what? They have no ground force which means that you can go Hydra or just bust the them with roaches.
How do i know this works? Because when i try to go air this is what happens to me.
Also Zergs use Mutalisk just for map control and getting up bases, by the time a toss has 5 phoenix's and a fleet beacon all upgraded i am sure the Zerg will be switching to Ultralisk or BL
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your Country52794 Posts
On February 20 2012 04:04 shogeki wrote:use this same logic you applied to stalkers to any protoss player who attempts to mass phoenix and you -will- see them lose their entire army. Couldn't they just spread their pheonixes? If they have 20-30 of them and spread them decently, it will take a lottttt of fungals to bring them down.
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On February 20 2012 06:57 DreamChaser wrote: You make it seem like suddenly phoenix are going to ruin the game. They wont, see protoss can only make phoenix's so fast. Now Zerg on the other hand can pop 10 mutas at a time. OR if they see Toss going heaving phoenix tech switch to Hydralisk, that is the advantage of Zerg being able to tech switch on a dime while toss has to slowly make changes.
Problem solved if the toss goes heavy air guess what? They have no ground force which means that you can go Hydra or just bust the them with roaches.
How do i know this works? Because when i try to go air this is what happens to me.
Also Zergs use Mutalisk just for map control and getting up bases, by the time a toss has 5 phoenix's and a fleet beacon all upgraded i am sure the Zerg will be switching to Ultralisk or BL
This is a very good point! Honestly I don't really see it effecting me barely if at all, as a Zerg player.
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On February 20 2012 04:59 Active.815 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 20 2012 04:55 Jermstuddog wrote:On February 20 2012 04:53 JonnyClark wrote: idk why no one has mentioned the corruptor yet those guys demolish pheonix. just by mixing a few corruptors (which are range 6 by the way) you can maintain a muta army, just not by massing mutas alone (which shouldn't really be a possible strategy in any strategy game) Corruptors demolish Phoenix like Cannons demolish Mutas. As in: only if you're dumb enough to keep them in the area. Actually, I'd go so far as to say they're much less effective than cannons due to the difference in DPS. Protip: Corruptors can move and have an ability that increases damage dealt.
Corruption is super difficult to use and it resets the attack cooldown on the unit (as all spells do), so if you corruption a single target you actually lose a corruptor attack (and some APM). +20% dmg on a single phoenix isnt worth dick all anyway.
In HOTS, corruptors have an ability that lets them like, devour enemy buildings to harvest minerals, or something. So maybe they will be good escorts for Mutas later... Mutas dive in and kill probes, corruptors eat the assimilators, nom nom
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Post it in the existing threads.
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