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Hello all!
For those that do not know me, I am ESV.Diamond with the ESV map team. I own and run the ESV map team. For a long time something has been very heavily bothering me.
Why do mapmakers get no say in their own maps or how they are used?
The most recent (but not only) example of this is the removal of islands from MLG. As you can see in the screenshot above LS (creator of the map) did not approve (and I highly doubt he was ever even consulted about it) of these changes.
Mapmakers work very hard on what they do, and regardless if the removal of islands was a good or bad thing, the very concept that you can pour all your hard work into a product, only to have a tournament organizer that does not understand maps on any reasonable level destroy it as they see fit.
Why does this happen and no one cares?
I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?"
This is an issue that has bothered me for about as long as custom maps have been used, so I ask you the community, why is it ok?
Edit:
On May 12 2012 05:13 prodiG wrote: This isn't exactly true. Once you make a map and publish it to battle.net, the system is designed so that people can only download and EDIT the map in the galaxy editor if you publish the map as "unlocked" - which no professional map will be published as.
The problem here lies in that tournaments want us to give them the map file so they can publish it under their official accounts and add whatever tags they like - "MLG Cloud Kingdom" for example - so players know that they are playing on the correct version as per MLG.
Does this give the tournament organizers the ability to edit the map? Yes. But only because no proper read-only .sc2map stuff exists at this point (which is frankly really fucking stupid.)
Does this give the tournament organizers the right to edit the map? Not without the mapmaker's consent, as far as I'm concerned.
Maps are designed with features and their concept in mind and nobody should know these things better than the map's creator itself. If the map's creator feels like the islands on Metropolis are bad and opts to remove them, fair enough. I wouldn't agree with his decision, but at the end of the day it's his decision to make.
To sum this up, it's not a matter of intellectual property. It's not a matter of "oh they have the map file so they can do whatever they want" - it's a matter of respect. These guys work really fricken hard to bring you new and exciting maps to make your tournament experience better for spectators and players alike and all we really recieve in return is a warm fuzzy feeling that we're making a difference in the professional scene and our map is going to get played on air in front of thousands with our favorite players. To crap all over that by defacing a map in any way without consulting the mapmaker is flat out disrespectful and simply put a shitty thing to do overall.
TL;DR This is not fucking okay. Yes, I am fucking chapped about it.
On May 12 2012 06:19 thurst0n wrote: Everyone needs to read this post, not the TL;DR that prodiG posted, because that is just relaying his emotions, the actual TL;DR for his post would be this: Tournaments should respect the mappers that put in their work for the COMMUNITY, and not abuse their position. It comes down to RESPECT.
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I think you need to let him reply to your next question of whether he authorized mlg to make the change before going any further.
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On May 12 2012 04:52 milesfacade wrote: I think you need to let him reply to your next question of whether he authorized mlg to make the change before going any further.
Even if in this one case they did, it's one case out of a bunch.
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I agree that it's really hurting to a creator when the integrity of his work is ignored and adaptations are made regardless of his consent.
The organisers are completely free to try to create a new map as they see fit.
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Let's remember that MLG still used Metalopolis for the longest time.
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On May 12 2012 04:54 Torte de Lini wrote: Let's remember that MLG still used Metalopolis for the longest time.
Let's not get hung up in map pools, I'll be making a how to guide soon enough. I'm just talking about editing other people's work without their consent.
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Personally I feel that when you make a map for a community it's an open source thing and it should be improved on by someone else if needed. I do, however, think that changes should be suggested/implemented only by experienced players/mapmakers with some credentials and not just some random tournament organizers.
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I don't think we can stop Blizzard from messing up ladder maps (eg. no half base on Daybreak), cause they are pretty stubborn on that issue.
But I think tournament organizers should at least consult map makers on their decisions, ask why they have done certain things and have full information before messing with them.
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The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps.
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On May 12 2012 04:55 Torte de Lini wrote: The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps.
Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers?
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On May 12 2012 04:54 Torte de Lini wrote: Let's remember that MLG still used Metalopolis for the longest time.
This is something I still cannot fathom. Kind of like how they're still using Shakuras Plateau.
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WHAT? They didn´t even consult him? I like MLG less and less and less...
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Sadly, I don't really think there's much you can do about it. Once you make a map and publish it to Battle.net, anyone can download it and mess with it as they see fit. I don't think this is right, but I also don't think there's any way around it. Making maps proprietary opens up an entirely new can of worms, that I don't really think we want to get into.
On the other hand though, I'm really sick of each tournament making small changes to maps. Are close positions allowed? Is it only cross positions? Will there be a supply depot at the bottom of my ramp? It's too much for both players and spectators. I want to be able to just watch a game on a map I know, without all the endless caveats and addendums the casters have to go through every single time. I also hear all the time in interviews with players, "You knew that map only had cross spawns, so were you checking the close ones for proxies?" "Wait, what? Really?"
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Map imbalances should be removed regardless. If map creators expect MLG to contact them first, then MLG should expect mapmakers to never release imbalanced maps in the first place.
If map makers feel they cannot deliver on this point, they should meet MLG half-way and allow them to make any changes they might want to implement before using the map, or put up with not having their maps used.
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that way tournaments shouldn't use modified versions of blizzard maps (close spawns removed. etc)
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On May 12 2012 04:56 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:55 Torte de Lini wrote: The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps. Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers?
Would be reasonable, but sadly, most tournaments seem to not give a fuck.
Thanks for speaking out, I'm with you on this one.
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On May 12 2012 04:56 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:55 Torte de Lini wrote: The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps. Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers?
So lay it out for us right now: what would you say if MLG approached you about changing the map and removing the island. You would note how the islands are important for XYZ reason. You would note how it gives race bias, etc. You would note that the island are intended and essential to the overall map-layout.
MLG would agree, understand, acknowledges, and make the choice of doing it anyways or keeping it as is.
Outcome is relatively the same (just less informed) and your viewpoint is maintained and acknowledged.
I see your point and obviously, consultation of your own creation is something most or anyone would agree on. I don't know if the priority is there.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 Aunvilgod wrote: WHAT? They didn´t even consult him? I like MLG less and less and less...
in the current state of things, they don't have to unfortunately :\
i do feel it's not MLG's place.
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I guess this is what happens when Blizzard owns the rights to everything you create using their games' tools. What happens is you have no right to complain, because you don't technically own the map, even if you made it. Just keep making great maps and accept that people aren't always happy with what you might think is perfect just the way you made it. LSPrime and the ESV team have been making awesome maps, and the fans and players agree. You guys should be really proud of yourselves, but you should also bare in mind that you don't OWN this intellectual property, and thus, it can be changed without your permission.
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Do map makers actually receive any compensation for their work? Or do tournaments just throw a map into their pool without contacting the original creator at all?
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Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them.
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On May 12 2012 04:59 Fabozi wrote: that way tournaments shouldn't use modified versions of blizzard maps (close spawns removed. etc)
On May 12 2012 04:59 Aeris130 wrote: If map creators expect MLG to contact them first, then MLG should expect mapmakers to never release imbalanced maps in the first place.
If map makers feel they cannot deliver on this point, they should meet MLG half-way and allow them to make any changes they might want to implement before using the map.
The big difference is that, different than Blizzard, ESV and TPW don´t make shitty maps. Also note that the islands were not imbalanced, they were just never used which is something different.
On May 12 2012 05:01 Exarl25 wrote: Do map makers actually receive any compensation for their work? Or do tournaments just throw a map into their pool without contacting the original creator at all?
Nope, nada. Just for the fun of making them.
@ Diamond: How is the law situation with maps? Does Blizzard own everything and anything, no matter of the creator?
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On May 12 2012 05:01 Exarl25 wrote: Do map makers actually receive any compensation for their work? Or do tournaments just throw a map into their pool without contacting the original creator at all?
No compensation AFAIK
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United States5162 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them. This is actually a really good point imo.
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I feel like maps are open source; release to the community, they're the communities maps. Use them in your own tournaments, that's fine but if someone edited your maps, didn't release it for a tournament and instead just did it for fun you wouldn't be complaining.
I personally feel the bigger issue for you is that 'ESV' isn't in the credits for who made the map. I'd rather see ESV - Ohana or whatever than MLG - Ohana, when all MLG did was change rock positions.
On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them.
Great point.
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On May 12 2012 05:03 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them. This is actually a really good point imo.
It's not really the same though, because the original (in this case the game being played) isn't changed at all by the caster. If tournaments simply took maps without permission (which I'm sure they do) I doubt Diamond would be complaining. It's the fact that they're taking them, and then modifying them for seemingly bizarre reasons.
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Are map maker recieving any compensation for the usage of their maps in large tournaments? If they were, it would be fair game, but I'm guessing they aren't. Maybe GSL does?
I'm going to guess MLG removed the islands because they didn't want any prolonged 1+ hours games. Especially in open brackets.
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I think that the map shouldn't use the same name then. Not even close to the original name. I don't see that they can't take it and modify it. I just don't like them to name it the same because then it implies that the maker of the map actually modified it himself.
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On May 12 2012 05:01 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:56 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 04:55 Torte de Lini wrote: The alternative would be just not use any of your maps or use Blizzard's versions of your maps. Or, just a crazy thought, consult the mapmakers? So lay it out for us right now: what would you say if MLG approached you about changing the map and removing the island. You would note how the islands are important for XYZ reason. You would note how it gives race bias, etc. You would note that the island are intended and essential to the overall map-layout. MLG would agree, understand, acknowledges, and make the choice of doing it anyways or keeping it as is. Outcome is relatively the same (just less informed) and your viewpoint is maintained and acknowledged. I see your point and obviously, consultation of your own creation is something most or anyone would agree on. I don't know if the priority is there.
Well, just look at what GSL does, many GSL maps have received updates which are supposed to make them better, but GSL doesn't go ahead and change the maps themselves based on what they think. Afaik they talk with the map makers and let them implement changes. I assume the map makers have at least some say in this, and it's coordinated, not like in this case.
That would show at least some sort of respect for map makers, since they already don't receive any compensation and the map names and loading screens are also edited in most cases.
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I have a feeling this has to do with the classical artist total ownership of his/her work syndrome.
If a big organization decides to use your product, such as a map, then expect them to make tweaks to to make them fit better. It's just the how life works, both in private and in business. I mean did they remove your name or somehow descredit you as the creator of the map, no they did not. It's not a big deal... really. And if you really feel that bad about it, why don't make a deal with them, some sort of agreement or something. I doubt venting on TL.Net will help you.
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I think they should be able to change the map, but should have to rename it. You created Metalopolis. That should stand on its own merits. I think tournys should be able to unilaterally make their own map. Now, is simply calling it MLG Metalopolis enough of a change? Thats a judgement call.
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I'd be pretty concerned if this was true. The person who made the maps was good at it and that's why some of your team's maps were chosen by blizzard to be put into the ladder map pool, I doubt the person changing them for the MLG has better knowledge than them. I hope this isn't the case, but keep up the good work Diamond, I hope to see more of your maps in Season 8.
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On May 12 2012 05:08 Integra wrote: I have a feeling this has to do with the classical artist total ownership of his/her work syndrome.
If a big organization decides to use your product, such as a map, then expect them to make tweaks to to make them fit better. It's just the how life works, both in private and in business. I mean did they remove your name or somehow descredit you as the creator of the map, no they did not. It's not a big deal... really.
I think they did remove ownership and name (MLG instead of ESV). Not confirmed though.
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On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them.
Is there not a clause in the paperwork where you register for a tournament that says the replays are theirs to use?
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On May 12 2012 05:09 Torte de Lini wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:08 Integra wrote: I have a feeling this has to do with the classical artist total ownership of his/her work syndrome.
If a big organization decides to use your product, such as a map, then expect them to make tweaks to to make them fit better. It's just the how life works, both in private and in business. I mean did they remove your name or somehow descredit you as the creator of the map, no they did not. It's not a big deal... really. I think they did remove ownership and name (MLG instead of ESV). Not confirmed though. if they did then they are assholes.
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On May 12 2012 05:10 Klondikebar wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them. Is there not a clause in the paperwork where you register for a tournament that says the replays are theirs to use?
The Starcraft 2 EULA makes every replay and map belong to Blizzard, nobody really has any legal standing to deny usage except Blizzard.
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United States5162 Posts
On May 12 2012 05:07 TrickyGilligan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:03 Myles wrote:On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them. This is actually a really good point imo. It's not really the same though, because the original (in this case the game being played) isn't changed at all by the caster. If tournaments simply took maps without permission (which I'm sure they do) I doubt Diamond would be complaining. It's the fact that they're taking them, and then modifying them for seemingly bizarre reasons. I agree it's not a perfect apples to apples comparison. I just thought the point that many times a replay is released by one party and casted without consulting the other player was interesting.
I think that ideally the map creators and tournaments/leagues would work closely together the way Proleague and their map making team did. But things are too disorganized and there are too many independents things going on for that to happen.
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On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them.
Tournaments should seriously consider not releasing ANY replays. It hurts the competitive scene because styles and builds get quickly countered by lesser players. It's already bad enough as it is with the match history showing BOs to like the 60th supply......
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Just fyi mappers do not get paid. Gsl pays crux and jacky,and thats it.
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I'd prefer Community maps where the tournaments edit without asking to them just using blizzard maps because they don't want the hassle of tracking down the map maker and debating with them for ages. If we make it more difficult for tournaments to use community maps, they'll be less likely to. Ultimately it's a balance of harms but I think it's something we should put up with for the time being.
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On May 12 2012 04:58 TrickyGilligan wrote: Sadly, I don't really think there's much you can do about it. Once you make a map and publish it to Battle.net, anyone can download it and mess with it as they see fit. I don't think this is right, but I also don't think there's any way around it. Making maps proprietary opens up an entirely new can of worms, that I don't really think we want to get into.
On the other hand though, I'm really sick of each tournament making small changes to maps. Are close positions allowed? Is it only cross positions? Will there be a supply depot at the bottom of my ramp? It's too much for both players and spectators. I want to be able to just watch a game on a map I know, without all the endless caveats and addendums the casters have to go through every single time. I also hear all the time in interviews with players, "You knew that map only had cross spawns, so were you checking the close ones for proxies?" "Wait, what? Really?"
This isn't exactly true. Once you make a map and publish it to battle.net, the system is designed so that people can only download and EDIT the map in the galaxy editor if you publish the map as "unlocked" - which no professional map will be published as.
The problem here lies in that tournaments want us to give them the map file so they can publish it under their official accounts and add whatever tags they like - "MLG Cloud Kingdom" for example - so players know that they are playing on the correct version as per MLG.
Does this give the tournament organizers the ability to edit the map? Yes. But only because no proper read-only .sc2map stuff exists at this point (which is frankly really fucking stupid.)
Does this give the tournament organizers the right to edit the map? Not without the mapmaker's consent, as far as I'm concerned.
Maps are designed with features and their concept in mind and nobody should know these things better than the map's creator itself. If the map's creator feels like the islands on Metropolis are bad and opts to remove them, fair enough. I wouldn't agree with his decision, but at the end of the day it's his decision to make.
To sum this up, it's not a matter of intellectual property. It's not a matter of "oh they have the map file so they can do whatever they want" - it's a matter of respect. These guys work really fricken hard to bring you new and exciting maps to make your tournament experience better for spectators and players alike and all we really recieve in return is a warm fuzzy feeling that we're making a difference in the professional scene and our map is going to get played on air in front of thousands with our favorite players. To crap all over that by defacing a map in any way without consulting the mapmaker is flat out disrespectful and simply put a shitty thing to do overall.
TL;DR This is not fucking okay. Yes, I am fucking chapped about it.
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To be completely honest I don't feel it's a big deal. Sure, I can't say that while being a map maker, but you came here to get feedback from everybody knowing that, so I'll explain why I think this anyway.
This kind of stuff happens all the time and we've just come to accept it. You can buy a Macbook and throw Windows on it. You can take your newspapers and use it to start a campfire, you can pay for a whore to have her sit there and listen to you bitch about your day.
When you publish your maps you consent to the terms Blizzard goes by which states people are allowed to do these things. You've paid the price by consenting to those terms just like my co-worker paid the price of 1k for his Macbook he put Windows on and like the whore that I got to listen to my problems + Show Spoiler +. You can try to combat it, but it's extremely unlikely it will go anywhere.
You probably know that though, and with that said your question is somewhat rhetorical is it not? I understand it's more of an expression in this case, but I don't know what you want me to tell you other than to sympathize with you. Unless I'm mistaken with Blizzards terms and the tournament organizations are actually breaching terms by editing and using your maps. In that case, give them hell.
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This needs a poll...
Poll: Should organisations always consult map makers before making changes?Yes (95) 74% No (27) 21% Impartial (4) 3% Circumstantial (why?) (2) 2% 128 total votes Your vote: Should organisations always consult map makers before making changes? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): Circumstantial (why?) (Vote): Impartial
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As you said the Blizz EULA allows it so..
Why does it bother you that other people modify your maps more to their liking anyway?
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Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote: Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay?
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote: Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. which is all the more reason why MLG should consult if they want a map makers map.
Just make your own maps.
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If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament.
If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them.
On May 12 2012 05:18 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote: Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay?
The viewers have the ultimate regard for MLG and other organizations. If they can't meet the mapmakers halfway and they lose spectators they'll have no choice in the matter really.
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote: Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
JungleBasinSteppesofWarMetalopolisXelNageCavernsBlisteringSands
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It's same as open source software... if you are upset people are modding it however they like, it's probably not for you.
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On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote: Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want.
If they "went back to creating their own maps", they'd have to actually pay a map maker. Might be a good start.
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On May 12 2012 05:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament.
If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them.
There is no rights to maps, which I really don't see as a problem. The alternative is way worse IMHO.
It probably would be a good practice for tournament to ask the map maker out of respect, but, like you don't need explicit permission to mod a open source (by which I mean open edit/modification) software, it's not required.
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On May 12 2012 05:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament. If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them. Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:18 prodiG wrote:On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote: Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay? The viewers have the ultimate regard for MLG and other organizations. If they can't meet the mapmakers halfway and they lose spectators they'll have no choice in the matter really. Is that what it really has to come to? "Our way or the highway?" That only works out poorly for everyone involved usually...
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Eh no sympathy for the map makers. Work out a better deal if you want to preserve your maps. Someone changing a map doesn't destroy your original so any frustrations are more about entitlement than any actual reason.
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I'm pretty angry at mapmakers being so abused by tournaments and organisations. They deserve more for their work. If the maps maker decide the map is like that, why tournaments change it ? They don't know shit about mapmaking as far as I know.
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Why does MLG think they understand map balance better than the map maker?
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4713 Posts
This is actually a big problem, and I'm shocked that the community is treating this as an insignificant event. What prodiG said is 100% true, the map makers know their maps in and out more then anyone but the pro players, until they have played hundreds of hours on the map. To completely disregard the map maker, who put in a lot of his spare time and energy for the sake of what he loves, is incredibly disrespectful, and I am quite frankly disgusted by some of the reactions so far. Just because map makers don't have a say in it is a problem, and they definitely should have a say.
Remember one more thing that prodiG didn't mention but is still absolutely critical, maps also create balance. Yes I said it, if you where to bring back some of the older maps and make them a majority in a tournament, not only flat out broken maps like Steppes of War, but even maps like Shattered Temple and Xel'Naga Caverns (considered at some points in time quite balanced). Then you'd see the balance and strength of races change dramatically from what you may be used to now.
If map makers don't get the respect they deserve, who is going to continue making maps for the next 8 years of SC2's life? Who is going tweak and fine tune each and every area of the map, down to the tiniest ramp and even its orientation?
If that respect isn't there this won't work, some of the very talented and bright map makers we have will just stop making maps, what benefits do they get from it anyway? And who is to suffer, us and the game.
Seriously guys, try to think ahead for more then 2-3 sentences.
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On May 12 2012 05:27 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:22 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:If it really bothers you that much why would you give them rights to your map? If you let them walk all over you they aren't going to stop doing it. It shouldn't be hard for you to add the MLG tags to the map or distinguish it in someway that it is easy for them to host it during a tournament. If you don't want them to edit your map don't let them. On May 12 2012 05:18 prodiG wrote:On May 12 2012 05:17 TheAmazombie wrote: Eh...while it is unfortunate that people may get upset about their work, if map makers are going to get pushy, then MLG or whoever can just go back to creating their own maps. They have the power in this situation and can choose whatever maps they want. That's the problem. We're just supposed to be okay with it because there's nothing we can do... So that makes it okay? The viewers have the ultimate regard for MLG and other organizations. If they can't meet the mapmakers halfway and they lose spectators they'll have no choice in the matter really. Is that what it really has to come to? "Our way or the highway?" That only works out poorly for everyone involved usually...
Well no, but if MLG keeps ignoring you and you don't do anything about it then I'd consider you an idiot. At the end of the day if it bothers you as much as you say it does it is worth fighting for, no matter the outcome.
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On May 12 2012 05:27 Logo wrote: Eh no sympathy for the map makers. Work out a better deal if you want to preserve your maps. Someone changing a map doesn't destroy your original so any frustrations are more about entitlement than any actual reason.
...This kind of comments are sad. Yeah, and it will be perfect if mapmakers stop making map because of that. I am impatient to look at the next MLG matches on Step of War.
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On May 12 2012 05:30 Destructicon wrote: This is actually a big problem, and I'm shocked that the community is treating this as an insignificant event. What prodiG said is 100% true, the map makers know their maps in and out more then anyone but the pro players, until they have played hundreds of hours on the map. To completely disregard the map maker, who put in a lot of his spare time and energy for the sake of what he loves, is incredibly disrespectful, and I am quite frankly disgusted by some of the reactions so far. Just because map makers don't have a say in it is a problem, and they definitely should have a say.
Remember one more thing that prodiG didn't mention but is still absolutely critical, maps also create balance. Yes I said it, if you where to bring back some of the older maps and make them a majority in a tournament, not only flat out broken maps like Steppes of War, but even maps like Shattered Temple and Xel'Naga Caverns. Then you'd see the balance and strength of races change dramatically from what you may be used to now.
If map makers don't get the respect they deserve, who is going to continue making maps for the next 8 years of SC2's life? Who is going tweak and fine tune each and every area of the map, down to the tiniest ramp and even its orientation?
If that respect isn't there this won't work, some of the very talented and bright map makers we have will just stop making maps, what benefits do they get from it anyway? And who is to suffer, us and the game.
Seriously guys, try to think ahead for more then 2-3 sentences.
If Map makers aren't giving proper respect... they should just stop giving out the map source files and rely on publishing locked bnet versions.
Tournament organizers are under control of the spectators and players and map makers control their map files. So long as the former group demands quality maps and the latter group demands control of their map why wouldn't it work out?
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Tournaments shouldn't edit the maps at all, so there are not a ton of versions of the same map and every pro gets curious about whats different. always these guessing games at the start of same matches .... -.-
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all editing does is screw it up for the progamers who have to remember which iteration of the map it really is, and practice for it...... (which depending on how many edits...can be quite burdensome~)
zzzz
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Because the maps don't belong to the map makers. They are creating a map within Blizzard's game, Blizzard's mapmaker and ultimately it's up to blizzard to decide what people can and can't do.
If we want to change this I think we need to bring it to Blizzard's attention like we do with other issues (no LAN, imbalances in the game, etc) and hopefully get them to change the EULA or something to help out the mapmakers.
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They edit it because they think it will improve the map, and so will improve the tournament. Not all that difficult. You might not like it, but if a big league thinks changing some things about a map would make it better they can just do it IMO
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Metropolis islands do not concern me at all, for example, those who watched the YOMT saw many many early island expos by terrans, and I dont think I ever saw an island base taken at Metropolis. I dont understand why they removed them.
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By purchasing Starcraft 2, you agree to Blizzard's EULA, which apparently says they own everything anyway. Even if it's stupid and wrong, which it is, it's a waste of energy to complain because MLG hasn't done anything they aren't allowed to do and nobody in the business is going to want to risk kicking up a real fuss about it.
So yes, it sucks, but it probably won't change. The future of map making I feel is organizations getting together and hiring map makers to create pools for them, much like Kespa did in BW I believe?
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On May 12 2012 05:02 Aunvilgod wrote: The big difference is that, different than Blizzard, ESV and TPW don´t make shitty maps. Also note that the islands were not imbalanced, they were just never used which is something different.
The principal stays the same. The rules shouldn't depend on the quality of the product.
On May 12 2012 05:07 StarVe wrote: Well, just look at what GSL does, many GSL maps have received updates which are supposed to make them better, but GSL doesn't go ahead and change the maps themselves based on what they think. Afaik they talk with the map makers and let them implement changes. I assume the map makers have at least some say in this, and it's coordinated, not like in this case.
Well the maps are made for GSL in the first place other competitions just accept them as they are. And if GSL feels like changing the map they ask the mapmakers to do so. Other tournaments are not forced to use the newest versions.
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Blizz made sure their EULA gave them complete control over evrything so they couldn't ever be denied control over anything in Star2 . Sucks, but that's blizz for you
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On May 12 2012 04:53 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:52 milesfacade wrote: I think you need to let him reply to your next question of whether he authorized mlg to make the change before going any further. Even if in this one case they did, it's one case out of a bunch. I don't think it matters. It states in the galaxy editor EULA that all maps are property of blizzard.
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interesting, I suppose it happens because the fans & players feedback to the tournament organizers and the tournament organizers feedback to you the map maker... unless you have a huge pool of people participating and giving feedback then I'd assume map makers would appreciate it. Also the market would move against you if you refuse, for them having someone that listens to them and follows instruction may be more important than individual creativity.
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Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious.
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yes, it came to my mind for a long time i hate to see depots all over the map even when there is no terran alive.
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EULA don't mean anything and never stand up in a court.
You have to buy the game to read it, and there is no way to disagree with it, as you will never get a refund for it.
So people who keep saying "the EULA says" stop being complete tools. Maps are the intellectual property of their makers, this has always been the case and always will be, no EULA can say otherwise.
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On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote: Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious.
How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file.
This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical.
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On May 12 2012 04:49 Diamond wrote: so I ask you the community, why is it ok?
why is it ok? well why isnt it? seems like you're basing your argument on moral grounds which means it's subjective
also you did such an amazingly shitty job creating this thread however that isnt unlike all the other sc2 drama threads. by that i mean you've created a flame baiting hot topic where your side of the argument is presented with such amazing bias that there are only two outcomes. 1: people read your opinion and take it as their own without knowing the other side of the story 2: get angry at how extreme your opinions are because of your lack of due dillengence/research
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On May 12 2012 05:03 Myles wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:02 Empire.Beastyqt wrote: Probably the same reason players replays are shared and casted without asking them. This is actually a really good point imo. No it's not. Mapmakers create, players utilize.
If a build had been played in a tournament, then they should be disclose to allow every other player to study it. Replay sharing increases the average skill of the players while removing slackers and cheesy players.
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On May 12 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote: I don't think we can stop Blizzard from messing up ladder maps (eg. no half base on Daybreak), cause they are pretty stubborn on that issue.
But I think tournament organizers should at least consult map makers on their decisions, ask why they have done certain things and have full information before messing with them.
blizzard and mlg is completely different since blizzard basically owns everything you do with sc2 if you upload it to their servers so they have the right to edit the maps but mlg has no right to do so if they didn't ask the mapmakers first
they are always saying that they are so professional but they really just do whatever they want because they think noone will notice (like the photo they used of sheth for their winter arena without asking the photographer)
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Some people want to be angry for the sake of being angry. Mapmakers should feel pretty good if their maps get picked up by big organizations, and are played by pros. I understand they put a lot of effort and work in it, but it s not like they were promised something, or did it for a request, they ve made them out of fun/ challenging themselves etc.. They have no legal claim over their works, and everybody knows that, if MLG decides to make their own version of that map, they are very much welcome to it, as long as they dont make it look like they created the original map, or the creator agreed the change while he didnt. (and even so, it would only be a dick move not illegal)
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This also has happened in custom forged maps in Halo aswell.
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The OP isn't claiming any legal obligation here.
I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?"
He's just wondering why they community doesn't call people out for doing this more. It's a fair point. I think if MLG or other orgs simply contacted the map makers and kept them in the loop, even if they eventually did make changes, it could go a long way to keeping good relations.
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On May 12 2012 05:42 sVnteen wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:55 SirPsychoMantis wrote: I don't think we can stop Blizzard from messing up ladder maps (eg. no half base on Daybreak), cause they are pretty stubborn on that issue.
But I think tournament organizers should at least consult map makers on their decisions, ask why they have done certain things and have full information before messing with them. blizzard and mlg is completely different since blizzard basically owns everything you do with sc2 if you upload it to their servers so they have the right to edit the maps but mlg has no right to do so if they didn't ask the mapmakers first
Mapmakers make maps, they do not own them. I honestly do not see what the issue is here... you are not allowed to "own shit" and sell it in SC2 and if MLG want to edit this map then it is perfectly fine for them to do so.
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On May 12 2012 05:41 thrawn2112 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:49 Diamond wrote: so I ask you the community, why is it ok? why is it ok? well why isnt it? seems like you're basing your argument on moral grounds which means it's subjective also you did such an amazingly shitty job creating this thread however that isnt unlike all the other sc2 drama threads. by that i mean you've created a flame baiting hot topic where your side of the argument is presented with such amazing bias that there are only two outcomes. 1: people read your opinion and take it as their own without knowing the other side of the story 2: get angry at how extreme your opinions are because of your lack of due dillengence/research
so you say he doesn't know what he's talking about? as you might have noticed he is a mapmaker himself so he is pretty involved in this...
also: what other point of view is there? mlg simply has no right to change the maps without asking for permission...
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It's the nature of the medium, mapmaker have no right over their creation, I think that's the real problem.
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On May 12 2012 05:43 JackDT wrote:The OP isn't claiming any legal obligation here. Show nested quote +I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?" He's just wondering why they community doesn't call people out for doing this more. It's a fair point. I think if MLG or other orgs simply contacted the map makers and kept them in the loop, even if they eventually did make changes, it could go a long way to keeping good relations.
It's an easy answer. The community at large wants better maps, it doesn't care nearly as much about who creates them. If you want to stop the behavior then you have to do it from within the map making community.
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On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote: Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical.
That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so.
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yes i agree. i also think that casters should mention the name of map creators sometimes. it doesn't hurt and gives the guys some respect they deserve.
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The question is who has the right over these maps. I think MLG should be allowed to change things they don't like, BUT: big events should have to pay for the rights to use these maps (I don't think they do right?). Don't forget that without the hard work of these mapmakers nobody would watch any tourney, so it would be only fair if they got their share.
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On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote: Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so.
That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do).
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Well, as a map maker, I've always thought the tournaments should be able to alter maps in whatever way. For instance, I never put depots at the ramps on my maps because I think it's something that the tournaments should decide.
However, I'm all for consistency so I don't think a tournament should drastically alter a map from the standard version without good reason. MLG likes to do random crazy things without good reason (extended series for example.)
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On May 12 2012 05:49 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote: Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so. That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do).
I agree with you, but again, that's the point of this thread. They are asking the community if their point of view of the matter as mapmakers is right before "renegociating" with tournaments. They are not asking the community to "do it for them" (at least that's how I view this thread).
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This is actually an instance of a general pattern with MLG. They'd rather do things in-house than to consult with people who actually know what they're doing. You can see it in the way they choose the maps, the way they make rules, the way they seed their brackets, even the way they stream the events. Sometimes it's best to just figure things out for yourself, but when there's a community of knowledgeable and passionate people who are ready to do this work for you, I don't understand why you wouldn't want to take advantage of that.
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On May 12 2012 05:49 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote: Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so. That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do).
The problem is that Battle.net is such a pile of shit we HAVE to send it to them so they can "MLG" it. I'm fine with this, it's the only way to make sure you have the right version for that tournament.
Also even if we don't, the locker doesn't actually work right and you can unlock maps at will. For example on various map sites you can find copies of most of the ESV maps even ones we never gave to any tournaments.
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On May 12 2012 05:54 Bidj wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:49 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:48 Bidj wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:39 Bidj wrote: Too much poeple are speaking about the rules and Blizzard EULA when the real discussion here is about Ethics. Stop stating the obvious. How is this at all about ethics? Someone is given a source file. Someone does what they want with said source file. This is something that happens all the time everywhere with tons of things and most of the time it's celebrated, not considered unethical. That's the point. The maps' sources are given graciously to the tournaments, the tacit goal of this is being able to change the name. They can (i.e. by the EULA) do what they want of these sources, but it's not moral do so. That's just bad communication or negotiation by the map makers. They should be on the hook for ensuring their maps don't get changed rather than running to the community to do it for them. If tournaments agree not to change the maps, then do, then the map makers should help each other out and stop giving said tournaments source files (or whatever else they want to do). I agree with you, but again, that's the point of this thread. They are asking the community if their point of view of the matter as mapmakers is right before "renegociating" with tournaments. They are not asking the community to "do it for them" (at least that's how I view this thread).
Well that's not the impression I got from OP, but if that's what their asking then my answer is, "do whatever you want because to start you and blizzard the only ones with the source map file"
Also even if we don't, the locker doesn't actually work right and you can unlock maps at will. For example on various map sites you can find copies of most of the ESV maps even ones we never gave to any tournaments.
If you have evidence of a tournament doing this, then that'd be a more worthy cause and something that can be talked about.
As to the other part... you guys have some leverage as creators. Use it to get them to stop changing your maps. If LSPrime boycotts giving maps to MLG then that's a huge blow to MLG given the quality of his maps.
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I never going to buy MLG's products ever again because of this.
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On May 12 2012 05:48 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:43 JackDT wrote:The OP isn't claiming any legal obligation here. I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?" He's just wondering why they community doesn't call people out for doing this more. It's a fair point. I think if MLG or other orgs simply contacted the map makers and kept them in the loop, even if they eventually did make changes, it could go a long way to keeping good relations. It's an easy answer. The community at large wants better maps, it doesn't care nearly as much about who creates them. If you want to stop the behavior then you have to do it from within the map making community.
If you say that the community wants better maps and not really better map makers to make the maps then the map maker will just stop making maps. They do not gain any benefit from creating their maps and if it isn't a profitable venture then they shouldn't be pursuing it.
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Well I guess the easy fix is for map makers to not hand over their maps for tournaments to use for their labeling unless they sign a contract that says they will not change anything (except maybe neutral supply depots, or some other agreement).
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Magic Woods9326 Posts
On May 12 2012 06:00 RusHXceL wrote: I never going to buy MLG's products ever again because of this.
Isn't this going a bit too far? It has been stated several times that this is one case of many. It's not only MLG that have done this.
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On May 12 2012 06:00 RusHXceL wrote: I never going to buy MLG's products ever again because of this.
That's the wrong reaction, instead ask for MLG and all the other tournaments to start interfacing with mapmakers and seeking approval on changes.
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Someone made some content for free to be used by others. An organisation is taking this content and editing it to their pleasure, as they are entitled to do. What's wrong here?
Like. . .I get that a map maker spends a lot of time on their map and might disagree with what people do, but when you create something "open source" it's going to get edited, and not necessarily in a way you like, and certainly not with you being informed every time. Maybe MLG would be kinder if they told the map maker before general release or something, but that's really the very limits of any obligation.
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On May 12 2012 06:01 [17]Purple wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:48 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 05:43 JackDT wrote:The OP isn't claiming any legal obligation here. I know the actual reasoning is the horrible Blizz EULA allows it. However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?" He's just wondering why they community doesn't call people out for doing this more. It's a fair point. I think if MLG or other orgs simply contacted the map makers and kept them in the loop, even if they eventually did make changes, it could go a long way to keeping good relations. It's an easy answer. The community at large wants better maps, it doesn't care nearly as much about who creates them. If you want to stop the behavior then you have to do it from within the map making community. If you say that the community wants better maps and not really better map makers to make the maps then the map maker will just stop making maps. They do not gain any benefit from creating their maps and if it isn't a profitable venture then they shouldn't be pursuing it.
That runs counter to quite a lot of things that you see everywhere from flash & javascript games to pretty much any custom content in any game ever. Dedicated creators will find a way, pretty much by definition.
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You need to take it up with Blizzard - they are the regulation body in this case I guess. To create more attributes which give you credit for maps on the loading screen and stuff and are not removable/changeable.
For example
Creation (unchangeable after release) - GUID - Author, Date, major version (unique over all maps with GUID, global), Organisation incl Logo Only Author can do major Version change
Last Changes: - Author, Date, minor version (unique over all maps with GUID, global), Organisation incl Logo
Both set of attributes would be dislayed on a loadscreen with brandign etc., however both the Creator and the last change author would be both credited equally to the public
Along those atributes other helpful ones could be implemented for search optimizing within tournament play. Needs better implemention of the ingame search..
(this all just spit out there and not thought out to the end )
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One of the things that actually bother me a little so far that some tournaments just wiped out the original credit and replace with their own brandings/sponsors. And in that way make the consumer (me!) believe that it would be their own intellectual property. Kind of misuse it for marketing purposes and remove the authors credit entirely. When infact there is enough space for both or the authors could be asked to make a special edition for them tournaments.
This only becomes a bigger issue though, whenever organizations go ahead and try to make money or create fame off of others work. Then you as a avid contributor to a cause feel cheated by them. Imo rightly so.
Sad world really.
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I can definatley see where you're coming from, but as one person said above you are the map maker, not the map owner. Nothing you can do.
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On May 12 2012 05:40 Zombo Joe wrote: EULA don't mean anything and never stand up in a court.
You have to buy the game to read it, and there is no way to disagree with it, as you will never get a refund for it.
So people who keep saying "the EULA says" stop being complete tools. Maps are the intellectual property of their makers, this has always been the case and always will be, no EULA can say otherwise.
Software EULA's has been to court in several Western Constries as a legal document (Several cases regarding the Windows EULA that i know of). So yes it will stand up in court in most contries. Why would anyone have a EULA if it wouldn't?
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On May 12 2012 06:10 windzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:40 Zombo Joe wrote: EULA don't mean anything and never stand up in a court.
You have to buy the game to read it, and there is no way to disagree with it, as you will never get a refund for it.
So people who keep saying "the EULA says" stop being complete tools. Maps are the intellectual property of their makers, this has always been the case and always will be, no EULA can say otherwise. Software EULA's has been to court in several Western Constries as a legal document (Several cases regarding the Windows EULA that i know of). So yes it will stand up in court in most contries. Why would anyone have a EULA if it wouldn't?
Even if the EULA doesn't hold up it wouldn't be clear that MLG is infringing on anything.
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Incontrol said he's going to ask sundance about this on state of the game (which is currently live).
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I am sorry, but i strongly disagree with the premise of the OP that the author of anything should be able to ban modifications on the work. Yes, I know that copyright often works that way, but it does not make it any better (by now you could have guessed that I am strongly anti-copyright anyway).
There are two things that you can with an "unphysical" work (such as a SC2 map, but any image in general): you can give it away, or you can charge people for using it. In either case, I believe that once you have gievn it away, or received money for it, the recipient of the work should be able to do whatever he pleases with it. Just think about it, how nice a world it would be, if it worked like that. So much creativity!
The modifier should be required (or have enough reasonablitiy to do so on his own) do declare, that modifications have been done and who is the original author. But the idea that people should be restrcited from changing something, so that the author's irrational feelings are not hurt, is on the same level of absurdity as software patents. (Yet.... )
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I've been curious how Blizzard and tournament organizers interact with mapmakers for a while now. Unfortunate to hear it's mostly ham-handed changes and overwrites.
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Maybe because map makers have no responsibilities to the people who play on their maps but tournaments that run them are fully responsible for making the players play on a shit map? I understand where you are coming from, but that is exactly why map making is for hobbyists or those employed by tournaments. You simply can't expect your map to fall to a fate within your control if you want it to be popular at all. You can't sell your replays or your maps, even if you put all the effort into it.
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Don't let mlg use any more of your maps until they decide to not be fucking morons about the map pool.
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On May 12 2012 06:12 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:10 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Zombo Joe wrote: EULA don't mean anything and never stand up in a court.
You have to buy the game to read it, and there is no way to disagree with it, as you will never get a refund for it.
So people who keep saying "the EULA says" stop being complete tools. Maps are the intellectual property of their makers, this has always been the case and always will be, no EULA can say otherwise. Software EULA's has been to court in several Western Constries as a legal document (Several cases regarding the Windows EULA that i know of). So yes it will stand up in court in most contries. Why would anyone have a EULA if it wouldn't? Even if the EULA doesn't hold up it wouldn't be clear that MLG is infringing on anything.
That doesn't really make sense. But as Blizzard owns the content, and they have never shown interest into doing anything of upholding it, the argument is moot. But again, the real question here is, has MLG the ethics to give the mapmakers the respect they deserve to do their work for them.
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Blizzard is pretty clear on this stuff. They want the community to put in more work than them, while they reap all the financial benefit, with the protection of their EULA and basically their ownership of the software itself. If map-makers want more say in how their maps are used, they're shit out of luck.
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Even though there is no legal obligation for tournaments to consult with mapmakers, it is immoral to make changes to their creations without first consulting them. It is disrespectful and unprofessional to alter a person's hard work without their consent.
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On May 12 2012 05:13 prodiG wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 04:58 TrickyGilligan wrote: Sadly, I don't really think there's much you can do about it. Once you make a map and publish it to Battle.net, anyone can download it and mess with it as they see fit. I don't think this is right, but I also don't think there's any way around it. Making maps proprietary opens up an entirely new can of worms, that I don't really think we want to get into.
On the other hand though, I'm really sick of each tournament making small changes to maps. Are close positions allowed? Is it only cross positions? Will there be a supply depot at the bottom of my ramp? It's too much for both players and spectators. I want to be able to just watch a game on a map I know, without all the endless caveats and addendums the casters have to go through every single time. I also hear all the time in interviews with players, "You knew that map only had cross spawns, so were you checking the close ones for proxies?" "Wait, what? Really?" This isn't exactly true. Once you make a map and publish it to battle.net, the system is designed so that people can only download and EDIT the map in the galaxy editor if you publish the map as "unlocked" - which no professional map will be published as. The problem here lies in that tournaments want us to give them the map file so they can publish it under their official accounts and add whatever tags they like - "MLG Cloud Kingdom" for example - so players know that they are playing on the correct version as per MLG. Does this give the tournament organizers the ability to edit the map? Yes. But only because no proper read-only .sc2map stuff exists at this point (which is frankly really fucking stupid.) Does this give the tournament organizers the right to edit the map? Not without the mapmaker's consent, as far as I'm concerned. Maps are designed with features and their concept in mind and nobody should know these things better than the map's creator itself. If the map's creator feels like the islands on Metropolis are bad and opts to remove them, fair enough. I wouldn't agree with his decision, but at the end of the day it's his decision to make. To sum this up, it's not a matter of intellectual property. It's not a matter of "oh they have the map file so they can do whatever they want" - it's a matter of respect. These guys work really fricken hard to bring you new and exciting maps to make your tournament experience better for spectators and players alike and all we really recieve in return is a warm fuzzy feeling that we're making a difference in the professional scene and our map is going to get played on air in front of thousands with our favorite players. To crap all over that by defacing a map in any way without consulting the mapmaker is flat out disrespectful and simply put a shitty thing to do overall. TL;DR This is not fucking okay. Yes, I am fucking chapped about it.
Everyone needs to read this post, not the TL;DR that prodiG posted, because that is just relaying his emotions, the actual TL;DR for his post would be this: Tournaments should respect the mappers that put in their work for the COMMUNITY, and not abuse their position. It comes down to RESPECT.
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On May 12 2012 04:49 Diamond wrote: However why are we as a community not saying "Hey wait a minute, you arent mapmakers, you don't make maps, why are you editing stuff that is past your level?"
It's not so much that it's okay it's just that : 1 people don't care 2 : people are dumb. Activision does whatever it wants and people barely even whine about it. And since it probably won't affect the sales why should they care ?? If the community did something we would most likely get a better game but people just don't give a shit and are quick to jump on the " they're doing a good job you're just a bunch of whiners " bandwagon.
Video game X lacks Y feature, an expansion of this game, Z will come out soon. Will not adding the feature negatively affect the sales ? Will more people buy the expansion if i bother adding it ? No ? Then why should i care. They want money, they'll get it anyway so why should they care ?
Then you have fantastic modding communities like FPSBANANA who do really amazing stuff. Seriously it's mind blowing how skilled some of the people are and what they come up with is impressive. But guess what ? All that stuff doesn't concern games like COD, and it doesn't affect the sales of the games concerned one bit. But since those people use different tools ( and the source sdk / hammer is not the same as activision blizzard's mapmaking program ) they own what they make. They just decide to give it for free to the community. When you create a model or a texture for an existing model, you own that thing, so most of the time the author leaves a note that say " you can edit this as long as you give credits to the author blablabla ".
This problem could be fixed by giving mapmakers ownership of what they make, while stating that they cannot use it for commercial purposes. ( IE you can make a map and give or refuse someone the right to edit it but not make money off of it ). Having said that it was to my understanding that they wanted to mlik that too. In an interview i think they said they wanted to allow mapmakers to make money off of some of their custom maps or something along these lines. It's not as good as a DLC but, who knows, it could work.
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Right i like to join this discussion to point a few things out, before they explode.
On May 12 2012 05:55 Diamond wrote: The problem is that Battle.net is such a pile of shit we HAVE to send it to them so they can "MLG" it. I'm fine with this, it's the only way to make sure you have the right version for that tournament.
Also even if we don't, the locker doesn't actually work right and you can unlock maps at will. For example on various map sites you can find copies of most of the ESV maps even ones we never gave to any tournaments.
Map protection is a new feature of Battle net 2.0 so before you start bashing "Battle net 0.2"(Because it is getting really old) just rememper, Battle net 1.0 didn't have any map protection features and map protection happened by breaking the map files only just enough so that they still worked in WC3 but couldn't be opened in the editor. They could still be "fixed" by people who knew how to do it, but it was out of reach for the average person. But this is a completely new feature of battle.net 2.0 and Blizzard is new with this kind of tech too.
EULA don't mean anything and never stand up in a court.
You have to buy the game to read it, and there is no way to disagree with it, as you will never get a refund for it.
So people who keep saying "the EULA says" stop being complete tools. Maps are the intellectual property of their makers, this has always been the case and always will be, no EULA can say otherwise.
Right i wanna kill this right here and now. The text above is a myth and has been so for over 10 years.
http://www.frictionlessinsight.com/archives/2002/03/you-may-read-th.html
This blog gives some insight what actually goes on when you "agree" on the EULA, TOS and such. I always like to quote my favorite part:
+ Show Spoiler +Time and again, forum board dwellers seem to believe that software license agreements cannot be binding. They seem troubled by the fact that you have to buy the game before even seeing the agreement. The licenses usually appear inside the game packaging and state that by installing the software you agree to the terms of the license (a "shrink-wrap license"). Alternatively or in addition, the license pops up during installation and requires you to click "Yes" to accept the agreement before the installation will proceed (a "click-wrap license").
EULAs is very likely to stand in courts and i would not recommend anyone from any mapteam to try and test the work of Blizzards legal guys against them. They got the advantage in both the legal and in funds. Just play by them, all i can say.
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agreed. mapmakers make the maps. tournaments use the maps. and that should be it.
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Seems like editing somebody elses art to better suit your tastes.
Seems like a kind of shitty thing do.
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What right does MLG have to change a map? They clearly have no idea about map balance. I dont mean to be rude but this is the same tournament that used metalopolis until march of this year. They still use shakuras plateu. I really do not like the tournament administrator for MLG. The guy clearly has no idea what he is doing when it comes to maps and tournament formats.
Just my 2 cents. I hope that they listen to the community and modernize their map pool according to the GSL standard.
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On May 12 2012 06:19 thurst0n wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 05:13 prodiG wrote:On May 12 2012 04:58 TrickyGilligan wrote: Sadly, I don't really think there's much you can do about it. Once you make a map and publish it to Battle.net, anyone can download it and mess with it as they see fit. I don't think this is right, but I also don't think there's any way around it. Making maps proprietary opens up an entirely new can of worms, that I don't really think we want to get into.
On the other hand though, I'm really sick of each tournament making small changes to maps. Are close positions allowed? Is it only cross positions? Will there be a supply depot at the bottom of my ramp? It's too much for both players and spectators. I want to be able to just watch a game on a map I know, without all the endless caveats and addendums the casters have to go through every single time. I also hear all the time in interviews with players, "You knew that map only had cross spawns, so were you checking the close ones for proxies?" "Wait, what? Really?" This isn't exactly true. Once you make a map and publish it to battle.net, the system is designed so that people can only download and EDIT the map in the galaxy editor if you publish the map as "unlocked" - which no professional map will be published as. The problem here lies in that tournaments want us to give them the map file so they can publish it under their official accounts and add whatever tags they like - "MLG Cloud Kingdom" for example - so players know that they are playing on the correct version as per MLG. Does this give the tournament organizers the ability to edit the map? Yes. But only because no proper read-only .sc2map stuff exists at this point (which is frankly really fucking stupid.) Does this give the tournament organizers the right to edit the map? Not without the mapmaker's consent, as far as I'm concerned. Maps are designed with features and their concept in mind and nobody should know these things better than the map's creator itself. If the map's creator feels like the islands on Metropolis are bad and opts to remove them, fair enough. I wouldn't agree with his decision, but at the end of the day it's his decision to make. To sum this up, it's not a matter of intellectual property. It's not a matter of "oh they have the map file so they can do whatever they want" - it's a matter of respect. These guys work really fricken hard to bring you new and exciting maps to make your tournament experience better for spectators and players alike and all we really recieve in return is a warm fuzzy feeling that we're making a difference in the professional scene and our map is going to get played on air in front of thousands with our favorite players. To crap all over that by defacing a map in any way without consulting the mapmaker is flat out disrespectful and simply put a shitty thing to do overall. TL;DR This is not fucking okay. Yes, I am fucking chapped about it. Everyone needs to read this post, not the TL;DR that prodiG posted, because that is just relaying his emotions, the actual TL;DR for his post would be this: Tournaments should respect the mappers that put in their work for the COMMUNITY, and not abuse their position. It comes down to RESPECT. Correct and still completely irrelevant since tournaments edit blizzard maps all the time. The rules should apply to all map creators individuals AND comapnies
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On May 12 2012 06:15 windzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:12 Logo wrote:On May 12 2012 06:10 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 05:40 Zombo Joe wrote: EULA don't mean anything and never stand up in a court.
You have to buy the game to read it, and there is no way to disagree with it, as you will never get a refund for it.
So people who keep saying "the EULA says" stop being complete tools. Maps are the intellectual property of their makers, this has always been the case and always will be, no EULA can say otherwise. Software EULA's has been to court in several Western Constries as a legal document (Several cases regarding the Windows EULA that i know of). So yes it will stand up in court in most contries. Why would anyone have a EULA if it wouldn't? Even if the EULA doesn't hold up it wouldn't be clear that MLG is infringing on anything. That doesn't really make sense. But as Blizzard owns the content, and they have never shown interest into doing anything of upholding it, the argument is moot. But again, the real question here is, has MLG the ethics to give the mapmakers the respect they deserve to do their work for them.
Sure it does, there's a whole mess of issues ranging from possibly implied licenses to fair use to what actually about the map file can be copyrighted, especially given it's Blizzard's map format and much of the actual artistic merit of the map file relies on Blizzard filling it in with art assets and tiles.
But yeah Blizzard's claim of owning the content would probably hold up anyways.
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Yea Blizzard said multiple times that everything that is created in SC 2 is owned by Blizzard/Activision. So even if someone made a map, they actually don't own it. I think this is going to change when the marketplace comes out but until then anything you make is property of Blizzard.
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Massive douche move by MLG imo.
I think that if someone takes effort into creating something, no one else should mess around with it, without the concent of the creator.
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I can say from personal experience that Blizzard did a very good job of contacting me about the changes that Ohana went through. I took the time to go through our e-mails (roughly 57 emails, back and forth between them and me), and took some screenshots of how they addressed their feedback, comments, and concerns regarding any problems they found with the map:
I might dislike blizzard for a hundred reasons, but this is partially why I respect Blizzard so much when it comes to them "paying attention." They really do, and this is the example that tournaments should follow regularly if they plan on using a map and changing it for their tournament.
These screenshots alone should show how tournament custom maps should be handled if changes are needed.
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Only caught chunks of it. SOTG
The league does...(sundance cuts off)
MLG LEE Decisions made by the league group. Changes made to counter some lag issues on Metro. Something we talked with Blizzard about. Overtime, has to be dealt with at a larger scale... We could do better organizing ... Could see Map Coordination between MLG and Kespa in the future. ...
InControl: Why not ask the map creator to make adjustments?
MLG LEE Probably an oversight and Blizzard been talking to map creators, they had to even pull the off ladder pool.
Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up.
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They just asked about this on State of the Game, and MLGLee demonstrated that he has no idea what the fuck he is talking about by saying that they removed the islands because of the lag issues with the ladder version of the map. The two have nothing to do with each other.
edit: I'm not even sure Lee knew he was talking about the islands. He was like, "they removed the map because of like, the lag issues? On ladder? Is that the one you were talking about? That's all the 'league team,' I'm not a part of that." Jesus Christ. Can't listen to this person talk.
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On May 12 2012 06:50 tsuxiit wrote: They just asked about this on State of the Game, and MLGLee demonstrated that he has no idea what the fuck he is talking about by saying that they removed the islands because of the lag issues with the ladder version of the map. The two have nothing to do with each other.
Yep, complete fluff. Can't say I'm surprised as it's all MLG tends to disseminate these days.
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Well they didn't pay for it. It's out there for free, most of the map is still intact, MLG and other tournament organizers can do what they want with them.
Nobody consulted blizzard when removing close spawns or adding neutral supply depots. Why would single mapmakers get any more say?
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On May 12 2012 06:53 SolidMoose wrote: Well they didn't pay for it. It's out there for free, most of the map is still intact, MLG and other tournament organizers can do what they want with them.
Nobody consulted blizzard when removing close spawns or adding neutral supply depots. Why would single mapmakers get any more say?
Because Blizzard has a clause in large tournament licenses that allows you to edit Blizzard maps at will.
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On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license?
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Adding a consultation process to using a community map would probably dampen enthusiasm (on the part of organisers) for adopting them in tournaments.
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On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license?
Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you"
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Really MLG? Really?
From a long-term business-perspective, this is a bad move. The community has widely acknowledged that games played on maps made by these top map-makers -> better games. Better games -> better viewership and better drive of return viewership, which directly correlates to MLG revenue.
The greatest incentive that these mapmakers have is personal pride in their own accomplishment. By wantonly changing maps, you diminish the value of that incentive, leading to, in the long-term, fewer great mapmakers, and a poorer selection of maps. Because of the long-term value added by maps, this decision negatively impacts MLG's own value.
Because of this, the map change needs to add significant value to justify the negative impact it has on the broader mapmaking scene. I have a hard time believing this adds meaningful value to MLG. This is a bad decision.
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On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this
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On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this
We don't.
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On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I was happy for 1 minute
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On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't.
I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe?
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I just have to chime in as a content producer, who has been planning upcoming events. Both TPW and ESV are incredibly easy to reach and deal with. I've even reached out to CruX on a single occasion and received rapid response, I'd imagine it is even easier with Korean at your disposal in some way. Map-making teams turnaround is quick and MLG citing any overhead time/planning issues for doing this is complete BS.
MLG Lee citing lag is completely wrong of course since clearing the islands probably has little if any effect on the lag footprint, this was a gameplay decision.
To me the expansion of Starcraft culture is entirely dependent on the development of the baseline experience. That development only comes from making maps better, making tournaments better, streamers connecting more with audiences, etc etc. Treating something someone made for that unselfish purpose like this, just melts my brain and is so so disappointing.
I can't imagine the ignorance of the guy who went into that MLG map with the ol' delete tool never having a thought for a moment to consult the creators. The community literally empowers their heaving behemoth of a company to profit through friggin philanthropic creative contributions such as this. Bite the hand that feeds much?
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I was always bugged that tournaments would call the maps they use ">enter tournament name here< mapname". If there is anything, that should go in front of the name of the map, then it's the name of the author, not the tournament that is using it!
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On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe?
Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it.
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On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe?
Maybe not. You are one optimistic person.
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To all the people talking legal : this is not a law problem. It's a dick move problem. Maybe you want a community where everything dicky you do is ok as long as it's not gonna get sued. I don't.
The complete fluff and lack of knowledge of the people talking for mlg are more than enough to disgust mrme for a long time, even if this wasn't as shitty as it is already.
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I know this is a dick move, but is it possible to for mapmakers to collectively withdraw rights for MLG to use their maps, until MLG agrees to consult the respective mapmakers before making any changes? I don't think MLG has sufficient alternative maps to use if they don't back down from that threat. IPL YOMT ftw.
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IP rights would never happen, but maybe you guys can petition get a read only system of some sort implemented? Its a really shitty thing and I do sympathize.
Obviously not likely to happen either, but at least theirs a smidgen of a hope for this, yes?
EDIT AGAIN: Or maybe work with the community itself to prevent this nonsense? Doesn't seem like MLG is very responsive, sadly.
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Hm...when I made maps for Unreal Tournament back in the days and I felt like modding another mapper's work, I surely tried to contact the guy first and asked him bout it. Most of the times the reply was "mention my original work in the credits and gogogo".
That was how we handled the stuff back then. Modding another guy's work without asking was out of question.
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Make a map that doesn't have the problems that need to be edited out then.
I'd assume that Blizz has the legal right to your maps anyway, not the map creator, since it was created using their tools.
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On May 12 2012 07:27 Thauleris wrote: Make a map that doesn't have the problems that need to be edited out then.
To be fair the original Metropolis does not have the issue, it's the Blizzard version that has the issue (which MLG uses).....
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On May 12 2012 07:29 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:27 Thauleris wrote: Make a map that doesn't have the problems that need to be edited out then. To be fair the original Metropolis does not have the issue, it's the Blizzard version that has the issue (which MLG uses)..... Really? Wasn't there a game with Huk where he the whole deal was that he had less FPS than he is used to in some GSL game?
To the Topic: Can't we just solve this easily? Why not ask MLG directly as a mapmaker what is up with this change and try to help them with the FPS issue. Perhaps they are just unaware how "offensive" this might look. In the end I am not sure what to think. Mapmakers should be asked for the sole reason that otherwise it might be very confusing which version is the "correct" one and of course the whole own creation thing.
But for some reason I can't make myself believe this is a big deal.
Further edit: After thinking about it a bit more I know why I don't see a big deal. The reason is simple: All this is going on for ages. Every tournament changes the map they are playing on. Might it be simple depots or cross spawns or gold or whatever we have. And honestly I don't even know what the differences are anymore because nobody cares enough to explain it. Everything is tournament branded without any regard to the viewer. Everything is changed without any regards to the original design of the map or anything.
But I still believe that mapmakers should first talk to MLG to let them known that not every change is ok with them and what is ok and what not.
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On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it.
IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either.
It's a map for a video game.
If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is.
The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map.
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On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map.
My opinion without any evidence to back it up is the truth, listen to me... just stfu.
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When you make a map, you're putting it out there to be used however people want.
That's how it's always been. There's no need for any form of entitlement by map makers when you're essentially just doing charity work for fun.
IMO if you want complete control over your maps, then don't agree to hand it over to any tournaments. It's that simple.
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On May 12 2012 07:31 Narfinger wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:29 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:27 Thauleris wrote: Make a map that doesn't have the problems that need to be edited out then. To be fair the original Metropolis does not have the issue, it's the Blizzard version that has the issue (which MLG uses)..... Really? Wasn't there a game with Huk where he the whole deal was that he had less FPS than he is used to in some GSL game?
Oh the FPS issue. Yeah LS released a Metropolis Lite on Korean Battle.net (with islands) like 3-4 months ago? When we used Metro in the Korean Weekly, it's what the players used.
If they had simply consulted him about the FPS issues, I am sure he would have been happy to hand over the lite version to use.
On May 12 2012 07:33 TedJustice wrote: When you make a map, you're putting it out there to be used however people want.
That's how it's always been. There's no need for any form of entitlement by map makers when you're essentially just doing charity work for fun.
IMO if you want complete control over your maps, then don't agree to hand it over to any tournaments. It's that simple.
Actually that's inaccurate. In Brood War mapmakers were paid full time wages and hired direclty in by KeSPA.
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Why does everybody says that Blizzard wont give IP to the mapmakers ? If the mapmakers have an IP, could they sell their maps to tournaments and Blizzard takes a part of the money ?
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On May 12 2012 07:32 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. My opinion without any evidence to back it up is the truth, listen to me... just stfu.
You really made a post just to be an asshole?
Please enlighten me as to how the users of these maps would, in any way, benefit from the mapmakers gaining IP rights to maps? If I don't recall, these maps are also made using a tool that they do not own and hosted on equipment they do not own, etc.
Their work helps shift the game and tournaments in a different direction over time, but the reasons these maps even exist is because Blizzard allows it. I don't see anything wrong with MLG modifying a map and I don't see the reason why everyone is so butthurt about it. Either way, MLG did not design the map and anyone with a brain knows that maps that make it to the ladder get modified in some silly ways. I couldn't care any less whether someone asked for permission or not. A real reason to be up in arms about a map is that an entity modified it and claimed it as their own work of art.
What the hell do you expect to happen when you put something on the internet without strict DRM to control its usage?
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On May 12 2012 07:33 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:33 TedJustice wrote: When you make a map, you're putting it out there to be used however people want.
That's how it's always been. There's no need for any form of entitlement by map makers when you're essentially just doing charity work for fun.
IMO if you want complete control over your maps, then don't agree to hand it over to any tournaments. It's that simple. Actually that's inaccurate. In Brood War mapmakers were paid full time wages and hired direclty in by KeSPA. Regardless, when someone comissions something, it should become theirs to use as they please.
If you're getting paid for the map, that's a commission. If you're not, then it's charity work and you're volunteering to give your map to the tournament/organization/whatever.
In neither case does it make any sense for the original designer to have any input on how the map is used unless the client wants their input.
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On May 12 2012 07:38 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:32 sAsImre wrote:On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. My opinion without any evidence to back it up is the truth, listen to me... just stfu. You really made a post just to be an asshole? Please enlighten me as to how the users of these maps would, in any way, benefit from the mapmakers gaining IP rights to maps? If I don't recall, these maps are also made using a tool that they do not own and hosted on equipment they do not own, etc. Their work helps shift the game and tournaments in a different direction over time, but the reasons these maps even exist is because Blizzard allows it. I don't see anything wrong with MLG modifying a map and I don't see the reason why everyone is so butthurt about it. Either way, MLG did not design the map and anyone with a brain knows that maps that make it to the ladder get modified in some silly ways. I couldn't care any less whether someone asked for permission or not. A real reason to be up in arms about a map is that an entity modified it and claimed it as their own work of art. What the hell do you expect to happen when you put something on the internet without strict DRM to control its usage?
Because MLG are ignorants about mapmaking. That's just like asking your doctor to be your lawyer. The same. They don't know a fuck about map making and the only ppl able to improve a map are those who created or practiced hardcore on them at a good level.
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I think it's a good thing. If nobody was ever allowed to improve on your work, it would stagnate. Allowing modifications (with appropriate credit given) permits the evolution of creative ideas.
There is no special degree that makes you a mapmaker and another person not. You might have great ideas, but you don't have some magic ability to know what is better for them. It's a very arrogant stance to take when you say "I know what's best for you."
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On May 12 2012 07:41 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:38 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:32 sAsImre wrote:On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote: [quote] What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. My opinion without any evidence to back it up is the truth, listen to me... just stfu. You really made a post just to be an asshole? Please enlighten me as to how the users of these maps would, in any way, benefit from the mapmakers gaining IP rights to maps? If I don't recall, these maps are also made using a tool that they do not own and hosted on equipment they do not own, etc. Their work helps shift the game and tournaments in a different direction over time, but the reasons these maps even exist is because Blizzard allows it. I don't see anything wrong with MLG modifying a map and I don't see the reason why everyone is so butthurt about it. Either way, MLG did not design the map and anyone with a brain knows that maps that make it to the ladder get modified in some silly ways. I couldn't care any less whether someone asked for permission or not. A real reason to be up in arms about a map is that an entity modified it and claimed it as their own work of art. What the hell do you expect to happen when you put something on the internet without strict DRM to control its usage? Because MLG are ignorants about mapmaking. That's just like asking your doctor to be your lawyer. The same. They don't know a fuck about map making and the only ppl able to improve a map are those who created or practiced hardcore on them at a good level.
*facepalm*
You state I don't provide any backing for my opinion on mapmaker rights and you post this in response to my post?
Are you kidding me?
If I said monkeys deserve bananas for mapmaking, I don't think my response would be any less coherent than your silly metaphor about MLG trying to do something they're incapable of when you have no proof to show that.
So far, I feel that MLG has the capabilities of improving maps by ensuring their maps don't allow pylon or building wall-offs, within reason of course, at the bottom of ramps leading to natural expansions nor do they keep features which are pure shit in their maps(the islands on metro). Those islands have added no value to that map, besides that hilarious ass game on the Day9 cannon funday monday.
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On May 12 2012 07:49 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:41 sAsImre wrote:On May 12 2012 07:38 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:32 sAsImre wrote:On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote: [quote]
Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. My opinion without any evidence to back it up is the truth, listen to me... just stfu. You really made a post just to be an asshole? Please enlighten me as to how the users of these maps would, in any way, benefit from the mapmakers gaining IP rights to maps? If I don't recall, these maps are also made using a tool that they do not own and hosted on equipment they do not own, etc. Their work helps shift the game and tournaments in a different direction over time, but the reasons these maps even exist is because Blizzard allows it. I don't see anything wrong with MLG modifying a map and I don't see the reason why everyone is so butthurt about it. Either way, MLG did not design the map and anyone with a brain knows that maps that make it to the ladder get modified in some silly ways. I couldn't care any less whether someone asked for permission or not. A real reason to be up in arms about a map is that an entity modified it and claimed it as their own work of art. What the hell do you expect to happen when you put something on the internet without strict DRM to control its usage? Because MLG are ignorants about mapmaking. That's just like asking your doctor to be your lawyer. The same. They don't know a fuck about map making and the only ppl able to improve a map are those who created or practiced hardcore on them at a good level. *facepalm* You state I don't provide any backing for my opinion on mapmaker rights and you post this in response to my post? Are you kidding me? If I said monkeys deserve bananas for mapmaking, I don't think my response would be any less coherent than your silly metaphor about MLG trying to do something they're incapable of when you have no proof to show that. So far, I feel that MLG has the capabilities of improving maps by ensuring their maps don't allow pylon or building wall-offs, within reason of course, at the bottom of ramps leading to natural expansions nor do they keep features which are pure shit in their maps(the islands on metro). Those islands have added no value to that map, besides that hilarious ass game on the Day9 cannon funday monday.
Most mapmakers do the depot'ing, it's only Blizzard that refuses to use it. Also the islands had purpose, just not in every game, which most maps have features like that, that rarely get used, but it's not a reason to can it.
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I don't think its fair to hate on MLG; it is the standard right now for tournaments to do whatever they want with maps. Map teams pretty much have to send map files to the companies so they can be published as "MLG ___" (or whatever the tournament is).
The problem is that tournaments feel they can make whatever changes they want to a map without asking the mapmaker. Yes I understand completely that sometimes changes need to be made because of an imbalance. However that doesn't negate the fact that mapmakers put many many hours of work into helping the community, with no pay.
Artists don't walk in to an art gallery to find that somebody changed their painting because they think its better with a touch of green in the center. Musicians don't give radio hosts their CDs and then find that the radio host is playing the songs with a new bass line. The artists/musicians are usually asked first (for the sake of argument, I know there are exceptions to these examples). Any changes a tournament wants to make on a map should go through the mapmaker or at very least a representative of the map team that will allow the changes.
This problem originates from the fact that mapmakers don't talk to Blizzard, tournament organizers, or players. There's almost no contact. Until there is more communication between mapmakers and tournament organizers, the issue won't be fixed.
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I agree completely with the OP. I'm always saddened when a tournament says they are using ESV whatever when they have made a number of changes to the map. I like that they are helping to get the ESV name out there, but I'm really disheartened with the maps are changed; especially when the change seems completely unwarranted and non-balance related.
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1) The Blizzard copyrights and EULA is so much legal BS and this is the ultimate cause. 2) Blizzard has led the pack with disrespect to mapmakers. 3) This has made the tournaments feel they can be equally disrespectful.
Ultimately Blizzard needs to abandon its abusive, controlling, money-leeching EULA and fight for the community that built it.
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NO ONE is arguing that mapmakers OWN THE MAPS they make. NO ONE. If they are, they're wrong. Why the hell are you people talking about Blizzard and EULA?
Did TL suddenly get saturated with pre-laws or something? This isn't a question of legality, this isn't a question of ownership, there are no technicalities here. We fucking got it the first few pages - Blizzard owns everything, and MLG *CAN* do whatever they want with the maps.
The general issue raised here is NOT that MLG can't, it's that they're assholes for doing it. Fucking simple, to be honest.
- When an artist work gets featured on DeviantArt's front page, they get PM'd first. Do they have to contact the artist? No. But they do, because otherwise it's a dick move. - When Instagram wants to put a picture that a user uploaded anywhere else, the user gets contacted about it. Do they have to contact the user? No. But they do, because otherwise it's a dick move.
Edit: I'm not adding fuel. MLG isn't wrong. They should just take notice of this thread. They've listened to the community before, and they're good people. It's a much different issue if they read this and say "yeah, too bad lol."
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On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map.
I'm assuming you've made a lot of balanced map for SC2 and know everything there is to know about map making to make such a bold statement about a professionally made map. MLG has, AFAIK, no map makers that are or were recognized by the community or anyone actually.
They just butchered LS's dozen of hours work without any understanding or knowledge about map making and you say it's ok cause well, it's MLG.
I don't get it
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creating maps isnt that hard.+ Show Spoiler + (i mean look everyone spends lots of time on them, but you get my point.) and besides if your map gets on the tournament cycle you should just be proud its there. also, if the map would be better with a few changes then why should the mapper care, it makes his/her map better.
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On May 12 2012 08:04 loginn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. I'm assuming you've made a lot of balanced map for SC2 and know everything there is to know about map making to make such a bold statement about a professionally made map. MLG has, AFAIK, no map makers that are or were recognized by the community or anyone actually. They just butchered LS's dozen of hours work without any understanding or knowledge about map making and you say it's ok cause well, it's MLG. I don't get it
Please, enlighten me on a game where the islands have contributed to the entertainment value more than someone endlessly turtling against air units.
It's not an island, but an island with freaking destructible rocks preventing optimal mining without investing into units and tech that even allow you to use it.
butchering of the map is merely an opinion. Think of it merely as optimizing it from excess clutter.
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On May 12 2012 08:14 WniO wrote:creating maps isnt that hard. + Show Spoiler + (i mean look everyone spends lots of time on them, but you get my point.) and besides if your map gets on the tournament cycle you should just be proud its there. also, if the map would be better with a few changes then why should the mapper care, it makes his/her map better.
Lol what? We spend like upwards of 100 hours on most maps, per map. It's fucking difficult. If it's so easy remind me how many of your maps have hit major circuits? Sure you can make a "map" easily and quickly, but to make a competitive map is hard ass work that requires a lot of time and a massive team effort.
On May 12 2012 08:16 stevarius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2012 08:04 loginn wrote:On May 12 2012 07:31 stevarius wrote:On May 12 2012 07:15 FairForever wrote:On May 12 2012 07:07 dUTtrOACh wrote:On May 12 2012 07:01 Diamond wrote:On May 12 2012 07:00 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:58 windzor wrote:On May 12 2012 06:57 Superouman wrote:On May 12 2012 06:50 Sufinsil wrote: Blizzard granting IP licenses to map creators, look out for map makers. Diamond has me on skype. We can talk and clear this up. What is an IP license? Interlectual Property license, they own the "code" and license it to "you" Oh cool, i didn't know we got this We don't. I didn't think so. Maybe with enough community pressure, we can help you guys get the IP licenses so you have a leg to stand on? B-Net forums better place, maybe? Highly unlikely - this doesn't benefit Blizzard at all so I doubt they'd do it. IP sure as hell won't benefit the users either. It's a map for a video game. If this isn't trolling to find a small issue to be up in arms about, I don't know what is. The islands on that map were god awful and had no place being there anyways. It's as if Dustin Browder invented the map. I'm assuming you've made a lot of balanced map for SC2 and know everything there is to know about map making to make such a bold statement about a professionally made map. MLG has, AFAIK, no map makers that are or were recognized by the community or anyone actually. They just butchered LS's dozen of hours work without any understanding or knowledge about map making and you say it's ok cause well, it's MLG. I don't get it Please, enlighten me on a game where the islands have contributed to the entertainment value more than someone endlessly turtling against air units. It's not an island, but an island with freaking destructible rocks preventing optimal mining without investing into units and tech that even allow you to use it. butchering of the map is merely an opinion. Think of it merely as optimizing it from excess clutter.
Uh I can give you a ton of games on Sanshorn Mist. Most of the time P or Z took the islands on that map, and rarely turtled on them.
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Level design is a creative process that produces original artwork. To get a grasp on just how draconian Blizzard's EULA is, look at this excerpt:
YOU ACKNOWLEDGE AND AGREE THAT ALL MAPS, LEVELS AND OTHER CONTENT CREATED OR MODIFIED USING THE MAP EDITOR (COLLECTIVELY, “MODIFIED MAPS”) ARE AND SHALL REMAIN THE SOLE AND EXCLUSIVE PROPERTY OF BLIZZARD.
This basically means that anything you create in the editor is theirs, which includes completely original characters and stories. It's akin to handing you a pen and notebook and telling you that whatever you write in it is their intellectual property. This is, in my humble opinion, a gross misuse of what intellectual property was intended to protect and probably wouldn't stand up in court, even if you agreed to it.
If a third party editor was developed, like SCMDraft, then the maps you create would still be your property, even if you shared them. Blizzard would be hardpressed to make any claim on them.
But really it's not there to fuck us over, it's just to cover Blizzard's ass from people trying to sell maps or campaigns made using their editor.
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That said, there are a few things about taking someone's map and editing it without their permission. It's pretty much the single most asshole thing you can do in level design. If MLG is going to be a bitch and violate this ethical principle then just boycott them. They're not giving you any sort of compensation.
Tell them straight that if they want to make revisions to the maps they should consult you, the level designer, and discuss why they want to change it. It's really not that difficult to send an email going, "Hey you know those islands in Metropolis? I think we should remove them for X reason. What do you think?"
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Well I never thought this was an issue, but I guess it is thank you for bringing it up! If there is anything we the community can do can you tell us?
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On May 12 2012 08:42 dylan522p wrote: Well I never thought this was an issue, but I guess it is thank you for bringing it up! If there is anything we the community can do can you tell us?
Request to the tournaments they start respecting mapmakers work.
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as long as we dont have a legit rotation system and legit selections and mapmakers (basically a well organized united way to select what maps to be official or not) i think its fine to edit the maps to the tournaments likings
but ideally we would have what i said and then nobody was allowed make their own versions of their maps or even have the desire to do so
On May 12 2012 07:26 Eisregen wrote: Hm...when I made maps for Unreal Tournament back in the days and I felt like modding another mapper's work, I surely tried to contact the guy first and asked him bout it. Most of the times the reply was "mention my original work in the credits and gogogo".
That was how we handled the stuff back then. Modding another guy's work without asking was out of question. that sounds like the least they can do before they start doing changes. would suck to be a mapmaker and have some stupid changes made and get the blame for it or ruined reputation because some tournament orga screwed his map over
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Close this please, dialog has been opened up, and I will be working on this issue behind the scenes now.
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Reminds me of Broodwar. People used to suffer the same problem until someone offered a solution where the produced map was uncapable of being edited and only the creator could make further edits to it. Perhaps SC2 needs this feature, except more formally.
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Pretty sure I'd get expelled from university if I did something a long these lines with an assignment. Pretty ridiculous that MLG doesn't even bother to contact mapmakers before changing their work. Another reason to dislike MLG.
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Completely with the OP on this one, the map is a creation of the mapmaker(s), with a great deal of work put into it. In commercial circumstances IP law allows for Moral Rights of the author/artist and the protection of their work from alteration, distortion, or mutilation even after it leaves the possession of the artist or ownership is sold. And this is to works that are sold and the artist has been paid for their work. Here the map makers are doing it for the community and their own pleasure but are not even consulted when their work is changed, it just feels wrong.
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United States8476 Posts
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