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On September 21 2012 11:05 GolemMadness wrote: "You actually have to go all the way down to bronze league to find terran cracking 30% of the population."
You all realise that this just means that there are less people playing terran, right? The question is: Why?
I think the game is pretty balanced right now but Terran has more units that require better micro and a set up that requires more multi-tasking at lower levels than the other races and thus people get fed up with it being "harder" - it was fine before because Terran was "harder" but OP so you could win the same, but now it's just harder and there's no advantage. It also probably doesn't help that there isn't really a Terran deathball.
To be honest, I don't want Terran changed, I want Protoss and Zerg to have the opportunity to differentiate themselves more throughout all levels in a variety of ways. HotS seems to do that with Zerg at least a little. Not so sure on Protoss. Problem is, Terran is being regressed.
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Because Terran has the highest skill ceiling, Blizzard chose to continually nerf Terran to make Terran overall worse so that Protoss and Zerg have a chance to win major tournaments at the highest levels of play. What Blizzard should have done was to redesign the Protoss and Zerg races so that their skill ceilings were as great as Terran's.
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Wish they'd make Terran OP again like they were for the first 80% of the game's life span so these players would STFU.
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"My opinion is that there is no racial imbalance at the pro level"
That might be true in the Korean scene, but the foreign scene is full of PvP and ZvZ, the 2 worst matchups in the game.
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It's only indicative of population... not skill...
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dude didnt u watch iem where mvp fucking kicked all those shitty players ass its total balacne just look at MVpp
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On September 21 2012 10:48 Chocobo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:34 blade55555 wrote:I imagine this has been the case on NA with zerg being mostly in GM for the past 6 months and will probably not change until hots. On korea I think it's a lot more even and I actually don't know about EU. But can't judge racial balance on just GM, especially on the NA ladder Excellent point, I don't know why I didn't think to check the other ladders. Here's what they look like- Korea GM: zerg 37.4%, protoss 34.5%, terran 28.2% Korea masters: zerg 27.6%, protoss 33.3%, terran 34.3%, random 4.8% Europe GM: zerg 37.3%, protoss 36.7%, terran 24.9%, random 1.2% (random GMs, pretty sick) Europe masters: zerg 35.3%, protoss 35.1%, terran 25.5%, random 4% SEA GM: zerg 32.4%, protoss 38.1%, terran 25.9%, random 3.6% SEA masters: zerg 32.2%, protoss 32.2%, terran 30.7%, random 5% China GM: zerg 39.3%, protoss 32.5%, terran 24.8%, random 3.4% China masters: zerg 31.9%, protoss 34.3%, terran 28.2%, random 5.6% Looks like the results are pretty similar with the exception of Korea... a place known to have higher overall skill levels, so that the skill requirements of terran aren't as much of a drawback. But even there the GM league is low on terrans. Of course, looking at races used on ladders is a horrible way to determine game balance... tournament competition is one of the best ways, and it's looking pretty even there. And I couldn't agree more with Bippzy's post... there's nothing wrong with having a race that's tougher to learn but has the most potential if played very skillfully.
In fact....
thats how it was in BW.
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Wow I'm surprised at the Terran stats.
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On September 21 2012 11:45 vaderseven wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:48 Chocobo wrote:On September 21 2012 10:34 blade55555 wrote:I imagine this has been the case on NA with zerg being mostly in GM for the past 6 months and will probably not change until hots. On korea I think it's a lot more even and I actually don't know about EU. But can't judge racial balance on just GM, especially on the NA ladder Excellent point, I don't know why I didn't think to check the other ladders. Here's what they look like- Korea GM: zerg 37.4%, protoss 34.5%, terran 28.2% Korea masters: zerg 27.6%, protoss 33.3%, terran 34.3%, random 4.8% Europe GM: zerg 37.3%, protoss 36.7%, terran 24.9%, random 1.2% (random GMs, pretty sick) Europe masters: zerg 35.3%, protoss 35.1%, terran 25.5%, random 4% SEA GM: zerg 32.4%, protoss 38.1%, terran 25.9%, random 3.6% SEA masters: zerg 32.2%, protoss 32.2%, terran 30.7%, random 5% China GM: zerg 39.3%, protoss 32.5%, terran 24.8%, random 3.4% China masters: zerg 31.9%, protoss 34.3%, terran 28.2%, random 5.6% Looks like the results are pretty similar with the exception of Korea... a place known to have higher overall skill levels, so that the skill requirements of terran aren't as much of a drawback. But even there the GM league is low on terrans. Of course, looking at races used on ladders is a horrible way to determine game balance... tournament competition is one of the best ways, and it's looking pretty even there. And I couldn't agree more with Bippzy's post... there's nothing wrong with having a race that's tougher to learn but has the most potential if played very skillfully. In fact.... thats how it was in BW.
And it still appears to be the same way; Terran are extremely versatile and diverse, this was working for a while. It seems they are just discouraged.
I wonder what the win rates are for say 10, 50 of the top Terrans worldwide, I would bet they are doing fine; because the Race is fine, and has been the most refined since WoL.
edit: It only makes sense when Terran is the most unflawed race to begin in WoL that they are either nerfed or left out of buffs to get Zerg and Protoss up to speed; it is demoralizing, but its fairly true.
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Speaking of BW, there was the same sort of racial distribution imbalance at lower levels there as well, but it wasn't as obvious since people couldn't quickly calculate the distribution.
In BW terran was also underrepresented in part because it was difficult but more in part to TvT being annoying for many people to play since it would take 3x the time of the other matchups. On the other hand protoss was seen as the easy mode race at low levels because although you could do fancy strategies with reaver shuttle micro and high templars, just a-moving zealots and dragoons worked pretty well (even against mine fields, zealots were the manliest units ever).
I don't think there's anything wrong there being some degree of distribution imbalance as it's pretty inevitable. Even if all the races are equally difficult to play, one race is probably going to be more fun. For instance in early WoL a lot of people hated protoss because every PvP was 4g vs 4g.
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On September 21 2012 11:04 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On September 21 2012 10:40 sekritzzz wrote: Its a bit hilarious how all these people are throwing random conclusions such as "terran is a hard race to play, thus less people play it". Its as if sc2 came out a month ago. For people who didn't know terran was quite popular back in the day.... and zerg was played at a 20%~ rate. Hahaha no. If you are into statistic and stuff, you'll know that Terran has been the least popular race since season 2(!!!). There were different reasons of course, but Terran was in no way the popular race throughout WoL's life, except season 1. back in the day =/= WoL's life
regardless my point still stands. People are still making the stupid argument that they think their race is more demanding skill wise, hence why less people play it. Same excuse, different race. People just love to make excuses for the loss, rather than you know.... be a grubby or white-ra, more gg, more skill. I'll be the first to admit that I think terran is slightly under-favored of the 3 races right now, just like zerg was in beta/start of WoL which is the most likely cause of the shift, not because its apparently more "demanding apm wise".
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Nobody chooses their race based on balance. Nobody switches their race based on balance. You just choose whatever looks coolest to you.
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If you play terran be prepared to lose a lot more. Only the highest percentile of terran players see inherent the benefits of playing macro Terran, where as a much bigger % of players (even average players) get a nice little boost through P's late-game composition and Z's macro-mechanic in larvae. While they can be perceived to be poorly 'balanced' I personally think its really naive design to force players from certain races to play in a specific 'style' - i.e. Terran MUST kill X units/drones against a Zerg or he/she gets too far behind and loses to a competent player.
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On September 21 2012 11:57 -_- wrote: Nobody chooses their race based on balance. Nobody switches their race based on balance. You just choose whatever looks coolest to you. But you do stop playing when the game gets frustrating to the point it's not worth playing over newer releases.
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i just switched to zerg from terran =(, but just for hots.
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It's the players fault not the race sorry. I'm just a spectator who posts actively in the Live Report threads and I've been highly critical of foreign Terrans performances in major tournaments because they can't adapt when the meta-game shifts, since the Queen buff there's only been 1 Terran who has caught my eye and that was last week at WCS Europe. True there is too many 'PatchZergs' out there who will fall off the scene right away when the meta-game shifts again but the TvZ matchup still doesn't explain why there's a 7% difference on average between Protoss and Terran.
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I switched to Zerg from Terran because I was sick of how broken infestor/broodlord is. It's a lot more fun on the Zerg side of things :D
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im only a diamond terran. almost top 8 ^^. but seriously . ive only touched zerg for about 10 times. maybe 13 and i got to plat easily. macroing is wayy easier since u can build from hatch. injects can be tricky but once u have the apm u can just do em. maybe because plat terran has more trouble w/ zerg. at lower lvl.
for toss. toss macro wud be the easiest.. and then micro. oh wait.
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This thread is making me sick. Mediocre no-name master league players feeding their ego with excuses for why they lose and why they can't compete with top players and such. Want to know the difference between you and GM/pro Terrans who win tournaments? You cry about imbalance, your race being "the hardest" or any amount of bs needed to rationalize why you aren't playing up to your unrealistic expectations about how good you think you are, while they blame losses on themselves not being good enough, which motivates them to practice more. They end up practicing all day, and you end up on here posting about why you are good but your race is just "unfairly nerfed".
This is simply the mindset of a loser. Do you think Taeja or Mvp have this attitude? They have winner's mindsets. Take a cue from people who know how to win.
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On September 21 2012 11:38 rogzardo wrote: dude didnt u watch iem where mvp fucking kicked all those shitty players ass its total balacne just look at MVpp
OHHH so everyone who isn't MVP just has to do that in order to win a few games on ladder? That's fucking awesome advice thanks man
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