Edit: Least played in every league under them (except plat) as well
Racial imbalance seen in 2012 Season 4 ladder? - Page 7
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ClanRH.TV
United States462 Posts
Edit: Least played in every league under them (except plat) as well | ||
Solarist
291 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:27 ander wrote: It's an interesting observation is all. Terran representation high = "nope its fine, P and Z players are bad". Terran representation low = "omg its so hard, blizzard please save us" Also quite interresting the other way. Terran representation high = " OMFG DEY SO OP NEED NERFS!!!" Terran representation low = " its fine, other races are just more popular. Terran dont know how to lategame bla bla bla bla bla " | ||
Fenris420
Sweden213 Posts
If I were to jump to a conclusion I would say that blizzard has failed at making the terran race appeal to as many people as zerg or protoss. Appeal could mean a lot of things though. Maybe the community has talked itself into believing terran requires 140 apm in silver league. Wether that is true or not, it certainly puts a dampener on your excitement about playing the race. Either way, what worries me is that there used to be way more terrans. meaning people played the race and just eventually got tired of it and either quit or swapped races. Again, if this is only in master and GM leagues, it would indicate imbalance, but it isnt. Of course, terran used to be stronger. No matter if they were OP or are now UP, terran used to be stronger, and that is maybe why the race failed to retain some of its players, you dont want to fight in a sinking ship so to speak. Statistics wise though, those who still do play terran are doing fine, which seems to indicate it is not a weaker race at all. I do not envy the guy (Browder I guess) who is going to have to remedy this somehow without changing the relative strength of the race. | ||
Asturas
Finland587 Posts
Also what I love while playing as Zerg is ZvT. I still lose a lot of games vs T as Zerg - I am too greedy and Terrans in lower leagues are allining very often xD On the other hand crushing Terrans, if I survive early game is so easy, too easy. Mutalingbaneling is just simply awesome. I understand why so many people are switching. Although on my main account I am still exclusively Terran. I love playing as Terran - it may have hardest micro, but macro is the easiest. | ||
BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
Example: 5% of each race will switch races every month. Let's say WoL started with 80% Terrans (as an extreme example). At launch 80% T; 10% Z; 10% P After one month 5% of 80% Terrans = 16% switch. They go evenly to Z and P 5% of 10% Z and P = 2% switch. They go evenly to T and the other race. -> Terrans = 80% - 16% + 2% (1% each from Z and P) = 66% -> Zerg = 10% - 2% + 8% + 1% (8% from T, 1% from P) = 17% -> Protoss = 10% - 2% + 8% + 1% (8% from T, 1% from Z) = 17% And so on. I'm not sure in the long term how this behaves (whether it settles at 33% distribution or goes between extremes - ODE's?), and it's probably not the actual cause, but just putting it out there. Honestly I'm kinda torn between these theories: 1. Deserved nerfs to Terran meant "launch Terrans" (Terrans in their league because of launch overpoweredness not skill) lost more, perhaps dropped a league and switch en masse because Terran is "harder", when really their skill was just being normalised. 2. Terran is not harder to play than P or Z. Nerfs were deserved, but didn't really affect anything below GM. Master and below Terrans switch en masse because of perceived difficulty and/or weakness because of the constant whining on forums like this. I like 2 better. Every anecdote I've heard by Random players, or players with multiple accounts suggest to me that there's no difference and that those players can reach the same league with T as they can with P or Z. | ||
mazqo
Finland368 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:37 Fenris420 wrote: If there are less terrans around in every league apart from bronze, I doubt that it has a whole lot to do with some arbitrary difficulty of playing the race. If you play in silver as a terran the game is relatively laid back compared to masters any race. If I were to jump to a conclusion I would say that blizzard has failed at making the terran race appeal to as many people as zerg or protoss. Appeal could mean a lot of things though. Maybe the community has talked itself into believing terran requires 140 apm in silver league. Wether that is true or not, it certainly puts a dampener on your excitement about playing the race. Either way, what worries me is that there used to be way more terrans. meaning people played the race and just eventually got tired of it and either quit or swapped races. Again, if this is only in master and GM leagues, it would indicate imbalance, but it isnt. Of course, terran used to be stronger. No matter if they were OP or are now UP, terran used to be stronger, and that is maybe why the race failed to retain some of its players, you dont want to fight in a sinking ship so to speak. Statistics wise though, those who still do play terran are doing fine, which seems to indicate it is not a weaker race at all. I do not envy the guy (Browder I guess) who is going to have to remedy this somehow without changing the relative strength of the race. How are terran players doing fine? There are so many more "good" zergs and toss players in eu/na than terrans. Its pretty ignorant not to agree that zerg is the best race in EU/NA pro level and terran by far weakest. There are only few talented non-koreans who can compete with koreans. So for non-korean progamer terrans it would be wise to change race if hots wasnt coming soon, since blizzard wont balance terran because korean terrans can still win tournaments. | ||
v3chr0
United States856 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:37 Fenris420 wrote: If there are less terrans around in every league apart from bronze, I doubt that it has a whole lot to do with some arbitrary difficulty of playing the race. If you play in silver as a terran the game is relatively laid back compared to masters any race. If I were to jump to a conclusion I would say that blizzard has failed at making the terran race appeal to as many people as zerg or protoss. Appeal could mean a lot of things though. Maybe the community has talked itself into believing terran requires 140 apm in silver league. Wether that is true or not, it certainly puts a dampener on your excitement about playing the race. Either way, what worries me is that there used to be way more terrans. meaning people played the race and just eventually got tired of it and either quit or swapped races. Again, if this is only in master and GM leagues, it would indicate imbalance, but it isnt. Of course, terran used to be stronger. No matter if they were OP or are now UP, terran used to be stronger, and that is maybe why the race failed to retain some of its players, you dont want to fight in a sinking ship so to speak. Statistics wise though, those who still do play terran are doing fine, which seems to indicate it is not a weaker race at all. I do not envy the guy (Browder I guess) who is going to have to remedy this somehow without changing the relative strength of the race. Agreed. I do believe Terran will get their mojo back. With HotS still being pretty raw, the removal of Warhound, continual changes on widow mine, losing player base; they're gonna have to do something and I have a feeling its gonna be pretty interesting. edit: To post above me: + Show Spoiler + On September 21 2012 16:46 mazqo wrote: How are terran players doing fine? There are so many more "good" zergs and toss players in eu/na than terrans. Its pretty ignorant not to agree that zerg is the best race in EU/NA pro level and terran by far weakest. There are only few talented non-koreans who can compete with koreans. So for non-korean progamer terrans it would be wise to change race if hots wasnt coming soon, since blizzard wont balance terran because korean terrans can still win tournaments. You answered it yourself, "there are so many more "good" zergs and toss players in eu/na than Terrans." When Protoss only had very few good players (MC representing it for many months at a time, alone) people still knew Protoss was hella strong. Just because people play other Races or have more good players doesn't mean they're worse; just less appealing, perhaps. | ||
BoxingKangaroo
Japan955 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:46 mazqo wrote: How are terran players doing fine? There are so many more "good" zergs and toss players in eu/na than terrans. Its pretty ignorant not to agree that zerg is the best race in EU/NA pro level and terran by far weakest. There are only few talented non-koreans who can compete with koreans. So for non-korean progamer terrans it would be wise to change race if hots wasnt coming soon, since blizzard wont balance terran because korean terrans can still win tournaments. Well that's the rub isn't it. Everyone draws their line somewhere. For some, we should balance around Korean pros (GSL). You want balance on all pros. Some people call inbalance at Diamond. Where should you draw the line? It's not an easy question to agree on. | ||
herMan
Japan2048 Posts
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LeLfe
France3160 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:45 BoxingKangaroo wrote: 5% of 80% Terrans = 16% switch. They go evenly to Z and P 5% of 10% Z and P = 2% switch. They go evenly to T and the other race. wait, 5% of 80% is 16%? your maths teacher would be so proud... just FYI 5% of 80% of the population is 4% of the total... now if you got a shop I'd be really happy to do business with you | ||
LRObot
United States153 Posts
A hypothetical test: All diamond+ Z and T players switch from their respective races. Hypothesis: Most Terran player will reach and surpass their previous rank as a Terran and will do so quickly. Most Zerg players will struggle to reach their previous rank as Zerg and will do so at a slower rate. This would indicate different skill floors for all races. I would love for something like this to occur. This is just my opinion. | ||
algorithm0r
Canada486 Posts
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shihido
Singapore29 Posts
The proportion of people playing certain races at various leagues might show the popularity of the race as opposed to the edge the race has over the others. I think part of the reason some people might have decided to play zerg is to prep for HOTS cos the new zerg units seem more attractive to work with rather than the terren new units. New Protoss HOTS units also seem more fun. For Terrens, they just beefed up the Mech arsenal IMO. Might be just that. | ||
Yello
Germany7411 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:45 BoxingKangaroo wrote: One possibility: If we assume that there are X percentage of players that switch at any given time, and that WoL started with an excess of Terrans, then there will eventually be a shortage (or at least less) of Terrans. Example: .... Honestly I'm kinda torn between these theories: 1. Deserved nerfs to Terran meant "launch Terrans" (Terrans in their league because of launch overpoweredness not skill) lost more, perhaps dropped a league and switch en masse because Terran is "harder", when really their skill was just being normalised. 2. Terran is not harder to play than P or Z. Nerfs were deserved, but didn't really affect anything below GM. Master and below Terrans switch en masse because of perceived difficulty and/or weakness because of the constant whining on forums like this. I like 2 better. Every anecdote I've heard by Random players, or players with multiple accounts suggest to me that there's no difference and that those players can reach the same league with T as they can with P or Z. I think it is mostly a thing of mindset. It's just hard to be in the race that is constantly nerfed (deserved nerfs or not doesn't matter at all). It just feels a little bit like Blizzard is against Terran. This is the first problem of playing Terran: It seems like everyone else is against Terran. The forums still hate on Terran players because of the time when Terran was really OP in early WoL. Blizz is nerfing Terran. Feels like the world hates Terran. The second reason is more a thing of game design. Terran loses very easily to Storm and Fungal when doing just one wrong move. Protoss and Zerg do lose as well when doing one wrong move (exactly the same as Terran) but it doesn't look so obvious because the armies of Zerg and Toss don't disappear that fast, while Terran armies just explode to Fungal+Banelings or to Storm. This is not meant as imbalance whine because as I said, Zerg and Toss lose exactly the same way, the difference is just the look of it. A Protoss army doing a wrong step and dying to a huge flank still doesn't disappear as fast as a bunch of Marine-Marauder walking into 3-4 Storms. So after all there is a different feel to Terran. It feels so much more frustrating, even though it is not that different from other races. These two problems make a lot of Terran players feel worse when losing. And since you'll always lose around 50% of your games this can take away the fun of playing. So players switch to Zerg or Protoss who are not easier to play but feel easier to play. | ||
Xcobidoo
Sweden1871 Posts
"You actually have to go all the way down to bronze league to find terran cracking 30% of the population." You already answered your own question, a lot less people play terran these days, probably because it's seen as a weaker race, when P was winning a lot, it was ZvP aaaaall day long. As soon as terrans start bashing faces again people will show up. | ||
Naphal
Germany2099 Posts
on the other hand, i get more "gg"s every season, being treated like an endangered species sure is nice =) | ||
stillborn
Germany119 Posts
On September 21 2012 10:48 Chocobo wrote: Excellent point, I don't know why I didn't think to check the other ladders. Here's what they look like- Korea GM: zerg 37.4%, protoss 34.5%, terran 28.2% Korea masters: zerg 27.6%, protoss 33.3%, terran 34.3%, random 4.8% Europe GM: zerg 37.3%, protoss 36.7%, terran 24.9%, random 1.2% (random GMs, pretty sick) Europe masters: zerg 35.3%, protoss 35.1%, terran 25.5%, random 4% SEA GM: zerg 32.4%, protoss 38.1%, terran 25.9%, random 3.6% SEA masters: zerg 32.2%, protoss 32.2%, terran 30.7%, random 5% China GM: zerg 39.3%, protoss 32.5%, terran 24.8%, random 3.4% China masters: zerg 31.9%, protoss 34.3%, terran 28.2%, random 5.6% Looks like the results are pretty similar with the exception of Korea... a place known to have higher overall skill levels, so that the skill requirements of terran aren't as much of a drawback. But even there the GM league is low on terrans. Of course, looking at races used on ladders is a horrible way to determine game balance... tournament competition is one of the best ways, and it's looking pretty even there. And I couldn't agree more with Bippzy's post... there's nothing wrong with having a race that's tougher to learn but has the most potential if played very skillfully. In fact i am pretty sure there is something wrong with it. Every player who installed SC2 and decided " I am a terran " ... will have to play better than the other guys to play an equal game. Just because there are Koreans who are masters at control, they will nerf terran, till you got a "balanced game" ... but i am pretty sure, that the best players chose T as their race when installing SC2. I have no proof for this, but i honestly think that MKP MVP Taeja etc. they are just better than DRG Nestea Puzzle etc. What i am trying to say, as soon as terran wins, terran gets nerfed. Without putting into consideration that terran is much harder than other races. So they have no other way than to nerf, cause the other races can not respond by playing better, cause their race does not give them the option to (or at least they think so). Im sure if MKP or MVP would play Z or P they would rock the world. I think they did a good step in HOTS by adding the warhound. Because it makes the skill you need to play T more equivalent to the other races. .... but they scrapped the warhound ... so back to basic. One story to proof it: I played Master top 5 Terran, switched to Protoss, and did not loose ranking !!!! Think about this ... | ||
zowie
10 Posts
On September 21 2012 16:37 Fenris420 wrote: Statistics wise though, those who still do play terran are doing fine, which seems to indicate it is not a weaker race at all. I do not envy the guy (Browder I guess) who is going to have to remedy this somehow without changing the relative strength of the race. Statistics from the ladder says quite the contrary. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=351786 This also shows how terrans are performing worse than their fellow zerg and protoss players. So even if the case was that the were less terrans, they still do perform worse. | ||
zowie
10 Posts
On September 21 2012 17:31 stillborn wrote:What i am trying to say, as soon as terran wins, terran gets nerfed. Without putting into consideration that terran is much harder than other races. So they have no other way than to nerf, cause the other races can not respond by playing better, cause their race does not give them the option to (or at least they think so). Im sure if MKP or MVP would play Z or P they would rock the world.. I actually believe this is false. Other races have become unexpectedly stronger than planned due to shifts in metagame and development of that race. Both zerg and protoss have learnt how to better play their race, WHILST being buffed by blizzard through patches. So in fact, blizzard buffed a race that was being played improperly, but has now been figured out, thus rendering the buff unnecessary and just overpowering that race. | ||
Sianos
580 Posts
So, in my opinion there has to be some kind of mentally change in the lower leagues, which will automatically lead to more wins for terrans and then increase the ratio of terrans again. I just remeber myself getting into masters league without much multitasking. It just was direct engagements over and over until the game ended. | ||
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