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Either I'm blind or I don't see any posts on this.. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/5847956061?page=1#3
We are seeing what you are seeing. Obviously Infestors are seeing a lot of use right now. Will it change? Is this forever?
The community's ability to develop new strategies is worthy of respect. The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see.
I expect we will try a balance map like we have in the past to test some stuff at some point in the future depending on how games go on the ladder and how games go in the many tournaments we have remaining before the end of the year. If the Infestor (or any other unit) looks bad to us we will try some changes. If strategies develop around countering him and he gets back in line we will do nothing.
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This is a good approach to balance. Basically they're saying, we know that infestor builds have holes or weaknesses and we're just waiting for the community to find them. Please don't nerf stuff you know isn't OP. That said, fungal was changed from its original design, so it may very well be too good. Only david kim and co know for sure.
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The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields.
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He said nothing. Not even close. He acknowledged that infestors see a lot of use and said that blizzard will change any units that need changing. Same as always.
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if we were just going off these statements out of context, i would bet the person saying these things didn't actively play starcraft.
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Buuuut you miss the point it's all about those numbers >_<. As long as winrates are in the 45-55% range it's all good, doesn't matter if the game is terrible.
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I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game.
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Infestors are just too good, There is never ever a situation where you wouldn't want an infestor the only time they are bad is when they have no energy. Infested Terrans are also really damn good just go see Leenock just tear apart every Terran with infested Terrans and retreat with fungals and never losing an Infestor. They have been dominate now for a long time so I would welcome a few tweaks.
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On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game.
It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
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Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time.
On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
Wat. What league are you watching?
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Still being patient. I guess that makes sense. The infestor is our core unit, and the community is slow to move out of its comfort zone and innovate. A prime example would be ghosts. It was blatantly obvious that they were OP as all hell against protoss, but they were never used for far too long. I can't help but wonder, though, when does patiently waiting for change turn into delaying a much needed balance patch?
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On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching?
Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
... 15-20 sentries early - mid game? lol. Nah man, 1,500 - 2k gas early - mid game worth of sentries, not happening.
On topic : I think if they nerf fungal they should give Neural parasite a little buff like back in the beta / early release when you used to be able to neural parasite while burrowed.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Um... when do you see 15 to 20 Sentries in the early to mid game... Never have I seen that many...
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United States3648 Posts
Thank goodness they waited to see how the community would respond to thors without energy, or snipe, or blue flame...
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It's just fungal growth that needs looking at... everything else is fine.
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On November 08 2012 09:27 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Um... when do you see 15 to 20 Sentries in the early to mid game... Never have I seen that many...
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/70595
13 minutes in game clock, Finale has 17 Sentries. Kills Jaedong's entire army barely losing anything.
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On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon.
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So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly?
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I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff.
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I dunno where people are getting the idea that the infestor has only just "Recently" been considered OP. I mean come on. The instant it became OP it was obvious. VR/Collosus was defeated by infestor alone(practically) in the patch that made its damage come faster and immobilize the unit combination. I agree it was something that needed to be changed, but why in the hell should a spell caster defeat such an army so cost effectively? That never made sense to me. Thus, ever since the original patch on immobilization, even on MASSIVE units, I've thought the infestor was pretty silly. To say that it's "just now" being silly is more of the fact that it's to the point where people can't even stand playing against it so it actually needs to get changed or people are just going to RQ the game lmao.
Again, I think it's not the players fault of finding the most cost-effective, and efficient way to play zerg. However, it is indeed a spectator problem, as well as a HUGE balance problem that has existed for quite a long time. For them to not own up to it when they've made other impulsive patches on balance is quite sad to me. They should be constantly looking at which ways to change it while people are playing with it in the event that nothing does transpire so that when the time comes they can patch instantly instead of saying "Well ok, ya now it's obviously broken so we'll look into it now" That's like saying, yeah, the whole time that it was broken before and being taken advantage of definitely sucks, but you're going to have to wait a little longer because we just now acknowledge that. Sit tight while we look into this! :L
I was reading through that blizz thread and saw Khadarian Amulet mentioned. Makes me so sad =( though, I think it was a little OP, but to take it entirely out of the game still makes me so sad ;~; zzz
dontgiveitup made a good point down below. I agree it would suck for all players if it was nerfed prior to WCS, would be horrible for a huge meta game change right before practically the biggest event. However, I just can't shake the feeling it will somehow be abused in someone's games thus creating a problem for the opposing race. I see a huge dilemma D:
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On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote: I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff.
nice observation, i hated seeing pro zergs just use 1 control group for their whole army, so that their infestors walk into the fight and sit there doing nothing <_> (who remembers Losira vs sC on Terminus haha)
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On November 08 2012 09:31 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:27 geokilla wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Um... when do you see 15 to 20 Sentries in the early to mid game... Never have I seen that many... http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/7059513 minutes in game clock, Finale has 17 Sentries. Kills Jaedong's entire army barely losing anything. One occurrence is not "common". People make around 8, if they're doing an immortal attack.
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It is pretty obvious at this point that they are gaining time and no balance patch would be considered before WCS finals. Seeing no Infestor change before Hots is a very real possibility, since having it adressed only in the new game would give players a reason to look forward to the change.
I mean, the data they are using is just wrong. Infestor isn't seeing heavy play from one or two months, it has been like that for 6 months or so. Balance overall just got worse after the queen range patch.
It is the go-to unit in every matchup ffs, with no real drawback to getting them.
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On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon.
You guys claimed he was watching low league play and he shows you a game featuring two fantastic players... He's not the one digging himself into a hole. He BACKED UP his claim with a game off of the top of his head. 15 or so sentries happens. It is not as uncommon as you seem to think it is.
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On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really?
Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock.
http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=
If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason.
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On November 08 2012 09:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote: I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff. nice observation, i hated seeing pro zergs just use 1 control group for their whole army, so that their infestors walk into the fight and sit there doing nothing <_> (who remembers Losira vs sC on Terminus haha)
Yeah, it's a good point. Another thing that used to happen is zergs dump all their energy on infested terrans in a fight, and then the other player would just walk away. Now they're more cautious with their energy.
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I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see."
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
This actually bothers me a lot. Is ridiculous how many spellcasters at once you can have, in BW if Protoss were able to easily get 10 Arbiters they will always win. Same with Defilers, if every Zerg its gonna have 15 defilers at once. they will always win too. In SC2 so many spellcasters make the game look more like a MOBA than a RTS.
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On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Yes because reacting now would be 'immediate', this has been a big problem for a long time.
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On November 08 2012 09:36 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. You guys claimed he was watching low league play and he shows you a game featuring two fantastic players... He's not the one digging himself into a hole. He BACKED UP his claim with a game off of the top of his head. 15 or so sentries happens. It is not as uncommon as you seem to think it is. Show me over 10 games where Protoss goes 15 Sentries... There are so many different early to mid game builds that Sentries does not have to be used religiously. Infestors are used religiously, and the amount of them in the mid to late game is ridiculous.
Plus you can counter that by going Ndyus as TLO showed.
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On November 08 2012 09:39 Gheed wrote: I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see."
I think it would be interesting to see how un-nerfed void rays did in the current metagame.
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On November 08 2012 09:39 Gheed wrote: I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see."
Because the community kept complaining that they were patching things too fast without waiting to see if anyone can figure stuff out, like in WoW (i don't play WoW but i hear about that)
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Seems reasonable to see how much longer it goes on. Protoss figured out mutas without using the silly phoenix buff. If they do nerf it, it will be SOONtm
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doubt anything will happen before Hots
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On November 08 2012 09:39 Gheed wrote: I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see." Nice logical fallacy there...
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Netherlands45349 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:40 insanet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. This actually bothers me a lot. Is ridiculous how many spellcasters at once you can have, in BW if Protoss were able to easily get 10 Arbiters they will always win. Same with Defilers, if every Zerg its gonna have 15 defilers at once. they will always win too. In SC2 so many spellcasters make the game look more like a MOBA than a RTS. A Zerg with 15 defilers is overproducing them and will lose because he doesn't have the resources to support his other units
A Protoss with 10 arbiters will lose because he has too much supply in Arbiters
The difference lies in the fact that Sentries and Infestors can be used quite effectivly for combat, making it legit to mass them, neither Defilers nor Arbiters have combat power.
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Eh, I don't really think players are going to "figure out" broodlord/infestor, but at least Dustin is admitting the possibility of something being wrong.
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On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason.
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
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On November 08 2012 09:41 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:39 Gheed wrote: I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see." Because the community kept complaining that they were patching things too fast without waiting to see if anyone can figure stuff out, like in WoW (i don't play WoW but i hear about that)
Well the most obscure balance change they made remains the queen range patch. I'll never get what made them do this change. It came right out of the open, noone, no single zerg player, felt, that a queen buff was necessary at that time. Since then I highly doubt, that the balance team of Blizzard knows their game well.
On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
In fact Protoss have a unit that counters infestors really well - The colossus! The colossus isn't very vulnerable to fungal growth and is the best unit in the game to deal with infested terran. But to solve this problem, Zerg have got the two best units in the game to deal with colossus: Corruptors and Broodlords .
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On November 08 2012 09:36 Venomsflame wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. You guys claimed he was watching low league play and he shows you a game featuring two fantastic players... He's not the one digging himself into a hole. He BACKED UP his claim with a game off of the top of his head. 15 or so sentries happens. It is not as uncommon as you seem to think it is.
It happened in that one game, and probably others where immortal-in is used. But it doesn't make it common. It's an all-in build. Building that many sentries in a "normal" game just doesn't happen. Getting close to 10 in a macro game PvZ gets Protoss vulnerable to a muta switch or delays tech by too much to make it viable. The standard is around 6 in an expand build (to three bases), while reactively getting more if Zerg commits to a roach max. And you don't see anything close to that number in PvP or PvT.
But getting many infestors in any ZvX is never horrible, unless Z skimps a lot in all other units or is doing something else equally ridiculous. There is no real drawback to massing infestor, no diminishing returns or feasible vulnerability, it is not a reaction to something specific. I is almost always good to get as many infestors as Z can get away with in all matchups. It's just a question of "how much" and "how early" infestors are built (or "how greedy" can I be with my infestor count), not "wheter" or not they should be made.
There is no point in discussing wheter or not infestor is overused, that is obvious. What is left is to speculate when blizzard will do something about it, and 2012 is not looking like a good bet. The ideal solution would be a general nerf to fungal and a buff to other Z units That is hard to pull off right in a single patch, so delaying any action just makes believe that this problem will not be solved in WOL.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
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It's boring to watch the same meta game play out over and over again. But I'm not sure Zerg has the tools to win with a nerfed infestor.
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Just curious, why haven't Terrans been using ghosts more often? It seems like a much more interesting way of "solving" the problem with infestors is to change the way the game is played, rather than reduce the amount of options that is available to the zerg.
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way. TLO Nydus counter. Nuff said. He kept on using it in... ROG I believe... Worked very well.
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On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason.
15 minutes is already entering late game. That's not early mid game anymore.
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
Using mass sentries to justify mass infestors? How low can you get....... Sentries are actually SUPPORT casters and cant win the game alone, unlike imbafestors. Sentries do lousy damage, 100 gases, cant defend against mutas and FF get ROFLstomp by ultralisk. Now tell me something that actuall counter the infestors?
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What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor
Well that seems to be in line with how they develop the game. Good job letting the community feel like you care without saying anything.
I think we have all known that changing fungal from stun to slow would be the best possible approach, and for some magical reason blizzard didn't even bother to try that change on a ptr/test map, or any other change for that matter. I don't get how you can be fine with making some nerfs within weeks of when something looks imbalance, even fine with nerfing 4 gate after it stopped being an issue on a pro level or adding phoenix range after people figured out how to deal with mutas, and then don't even try to do shit about a unit where I don't even feel like you can have too many of.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 nihlon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:39 Gheed wrote: I don't understand why when for a month or two a handful of games on some maps featured "unbeatable" collosus-void ray balls, they nerfed void rays, but when every single game for a year that doesn't feature a rush involves tons of infestors they "wait and see." Nice logical fallacy there...
I don't see how not understanding something is fallacious. If before they felt they had sufficient data to nerf something after 3-4 months, and infestors haven't been touched for over a year (queens and other stuff have been changed since then, but not infestors themselves) then either they a., don't know what to do with the infestor, b., something has changed about their data collection methods, or c., that data has borne out that infestors are fine.
What Dustin said doesn't actually say anything. Replace "infestor" in his post with any other strategy and the sentences would still make sense.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
16 siege tanks and a raven? 2 colossi and 4 carriers? All the zerglings? 5 ghosts with 5 nukes? The Automaton 2 with minigun upgrade?
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Something I learned from watching The Wire: FUCK the number games. Focus on fixing the problems with the design before moving onto balance.
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On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game.
Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating.
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On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors?
Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too?
Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too.
Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?.
Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove.
These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors?
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way. Couldn't have been because the zerg played it wrong! Couldn't have been that they slammed roach+ling into forcefields expecting to get lucky! Couldn't have been lack of infestors at 15 MINUTES
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On November 08 2012 09:56 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game. Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating.
Oddly enough most of those bunker changes became pointless the moment larger maps became the norm.
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On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way.
Zergs have just gotten complacent with the cost-effectiveness of Roach/Ling. Only Parting can seriously get good % success rates. Most pro-Zergs handle non-Partings very easily, achieve X Infestors, and collect their points.
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I think fungal is fine, and infested terrans are the problem. They should try doubling the energy cost and see how that works out. It seems that there are just way too many available at all times, literally doubling the zerg army at times.
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On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove.
Infestors rape ghosts and high templar because of 1+ broodlords behind.
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I dont really get why the focus of the infestor-whine seem to be fungal. Fungal is fine if you ask me. People say its anti-micro, and while that holds some truth i think fungal still creates very interesting scenarios vs terran bio and maybe also to a lesser extent vs blink stalkers and vs roaches in roach/infestor battles.
The only problem I see with the infestor is that its too versatile, and thereby pretty much impossible to overmake. If a T makes 100 marines he'll lose to colossi or fungal/banelings. If a Z makes 50 roaches he'll lose to immortals, marauders and tanks. Etc. The problem is Infestors can both be the support and the core part of your army. Or, the infestors arent the core, the infested Terrans are. ITs are the damage soakers, the anti air (vs spread anti air at least, fungal vs clumped), high damage dealers and also shield the important units (infestors + BLs) from being attacked. And you cant make too many of them. If you have 30 infestors, adding another 5 will always be useful because it means more ITs.
And thats the problem. To me, a nerf to Infested Terrans seems to be much more reasonable than fungal. Fungal should still have its uses, but you cant make 30 infestors for the purpose of fungaling. And while its fine infestors can use up spare energy to something useful (ravens have turrets, ghosts snipe, templars become archons when they've used their energy) the infested terrans are just too good of an energy dump. Making them cost more energy and/or deal less dmg and/or die faster and/or something else is to me the best step to put infestors back where they should be: a useful support spell caster unit. Not a core army unit.
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On November 08 2012 09:57 Corrosive wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:49 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? For a build with "obvious" counters, it sure has a very high success rate. Protoss won both those games I linked to, by the way. Couldn't have been because the zerg played it wrong! Couldn't have been that they slammed roach+ling into forcefields expecting to get lucky! Couldn't have been lack of infestors at 15 MINUTES
So Zerg needs infestors to counter sentries is that what you are saying?
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On November 08 2012 09:58 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. Infestors rape ghosts and high templar because of 1+ broodlords behind.
Then commit your army/stalkers/vikings/whatever to bring the infestors forward, Snipe/feedback, and remax before broods can push on, altho I doubt most zerg will push with just brood/corruptor if they lose most of their infestor support and will remax with lings. - Yes this is situational but it is just a suggestion.
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lol whoever posted the whole "I SAW 20 SENTRIES IN TWO GAMES, IT MUST BE THE NEW STANDARD!!111" needs to actually think for a second on whether or not that's the normal or not. It's normal to see 20+ infestors in game past 14 minutes. Are you seriously saying that a protoss will always make 15 sentries the same way a zerg will make 20 infestors? Lol...
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On November 08 2012 10:00 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:58 TimENT wrote:On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. Infestors rape ghosts and high templar because of 1+ broodlords behind. Then commit your army/stalkers/vikings/whatever to bring the infestors forward, Snipe/feedback, and remax before broods can push on, altho I doubt most zerg will push with just brood/corruptor if they lose most of their infestor support and will remax with lings. - Yes this is situational but it is just a suggestion.
We can play this little hypothetical bullshit game all day, but infestors will just fungal those that jump forward, pull back, broodlords attack, another fungal. Plus 20 trillion, literally 20 trillion, infested terrans. This isn't even close to being about balance. This is god awful unit design.
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I thought Dustin has said this before???
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On November 08 2012 10:00 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:58 TimENT wrote:On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. Infestors rape ghosts and high templar because of 1+ broodlords behind. Then commit your army/stalkers/vikings/whatever to bring the infestors forward, Snipe/feedback, and remax before broods can push on, altho I doubt most zerg will push with just brood/corruptor if they lose most of their infestor support and will remax with lings. - Yes this is situational but it is just a suggestion. People seem to forget that fungal is only one part of a Protoss/Terran ground army's inability to engage the BLs. The other part is the wall of broodlings that form a literal wall that can only be circumvented by 1. killing all of them, or 2. blinking forward, which coincidentally leaves them open to fungal. And every pro terran tries to kite with vikings, zergs counter with corruptors, ITs, and now queens.
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On November 08 2012 10:02 TimENT wrote:
We can play this little hypothetical bullshit game all day, but infestors will just fungal those that jump forward, pull back, broodlords attack, another fungal. Plus 20 trillion, literally 20 trillion, infested terrans. This isn't even close to being about balance. This is god awful unit design.
Oh I know, but it is just a suggestion. Also when engaging mid map why does the none Zerg never pull back when they see a load of Infested terrans being lobbed? they are slow and will time out just bait them and move, okay some part of your army will get fungaled/broodswarmed but thats a given in and infestor/BL engagement.
But I also agree, The design behind infestors is maybe have 5-8 Max at anyone time but we are seeing double sometimes triple that in games. Something does need to be done. Such as One fungal/6 Infesteds per Infestor, change the energy cost. Then its on par with Seeker Missile for energy useage at least, but 10 Times more valuable.
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On November 08 2012 09:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:On November 08 2012 09:38 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 MrF wrote:On November 08 2012 09:26 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:23 AndAgain wrote:Browder and DK keep talking as if this infestor domination is a recent thing. It has been going for a pretty long time. On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote: It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Wat. What league are you watching? Next time you see a Sentry/Immortal all in, count... One recent example off the top of my head, Finale vs Jaedong on Abyssal City, Finale had 17 Sentries at the time of the attack. That doesn't mean its common to see that many, you were exaggerating, don't dig yourself a hole by trying to back up a blatantly ridiculous claim, 7-10 is common maybe a couple more 15+ sentries at one time is not common. Just because it happened once or twice doesn't mean its not uncommon. It happened just once? Really? Seed vs Sniper on Abyssal City, 17 Sentries at 15 minutes in game clock. http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls5/vod/70997/?set=4&lang=If you want more, you're going to have to find them yourself, I assure you, it's not hard. It's called Sentry/Immortal and not Stalker/Immortal for a reason. Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? 16 siege tanks and a raven? 2 colossi and 4 carriers? All the zerglings? 5 ghosts with 5 nukes? The Automaton 2 with minigun upgrade?
100-136 (17x8) Infested Terrans counter all those with a handful of Fungals, assuming you have 0 supply Overseers too.
On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors?
HTs can't really counter Infestors as effectively, because they're slower and more expensive. Ghosts can, but Snipe is very weak and EMP radius doesn't seem to cover too many Infestors.
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maybe the EMP nerf was a mistake? it would make ghosts an option against infestors, help out mech, and help terran vs late game protoss deathball (since it seems they are still having trouble lategame), and in HotS P will hopefully have more options early on so that they don't have to just turtle
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Kydarian Amulet was removed because it provided Toss to convert gas directly to damage. Well.... Guess what, Zerg can cast fungal immediately after spawn... Isn't that gas directly to damage? Lets not talk about 8 marines per 2 supply or that infestor eggs soak up insane amounts of damage.
I guess a big factor is that David Kim is a Zerg. See how quick Ghost were nerfed because they were good vs everything bio. After one or two tournaments when snipes became the go-to in the late game vs Zerg, Bliz was nono and the poor ghost got nerfed the heck out of it. No mass ghost late game. Isn't it strange they didn't say lets wait and see. Maybe Zerg can figure out a different way to take down mass ghost?
Obviously the infestor is different. No its completely fine in its role as taking up 60-80 supply of a late game army. That's not too many. 20-35 infestors running around, just chilling. No Roaches, no hydras. Just a few lings, some gglords and corruptors and mass mass infestors.
Not impressed by the sheer double standard.
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United States23455 Posts
"Sorry, we're kinda too busy working on HotS to care about Wings, so let's just wait and see if Terran and Protoss figure out how to beat the infestor. And when I say wait and see, I mean wait till HotS is out."
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On November 08 2012 10:06 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:02 TimENT wrote:
We can play this little hypothetical bullshit game all day, but infestors will just fungal those that jump forward, pull back, broodlords attack, another fungal. Plus 20 trillion, literally 20 trillion, infested terrans. This isn't even close to being about balance. This is god awful unit design.
Oh I know, but it is just a suggestion. Also when engaging mid map why does the none Zerg never pull back when they see a load of Infested terrans being lobbed? they are slow and will time out just bait them and move, okay some part of your army will get fungaled/broodswarmed but thats a given in and infestor/BL engagement.
We do see this. But little bits will always be caught by fungals when trying to pull back, and this leads to a lost game vs Z. So the Protoss and Terrans try to win in one engagement because fungals nullify retreating/small army attacks.
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I never thought that infested terrans should be eligible for upgrades, they should just stay 0/0. I guess most of the complaint is with the fungal growth though. I think that is a little harder to tweak because its pretty apparent at least for now that the infestor is the mainstay of most zerg mid/late-game armies (if not all).
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On November 08 2012 09:28 forsooth wrote: Thank goodness they waited to see how the community would respond to thors without energy, or snipe, or blue flame...
So true, blizzard like to persecute terrans. When it's a possible Zerg nerf we have to make MASS tests and wait SO LONG time to MAYBE have some thing.
And ''BL-Infestor composition isn't a big deal'' You clearly made my day. It's like saying that some one is on fire and it's not a big deal.
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I guess 300 pro games of zerg going brood lord/infestor/corruptor wasn't enough, he needs 100 more games like that.
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On November 08 2012 10:07 Fionn wrote: "Sorry, we're kinda too busy working on HotS to care about Wings, so let's just wait and see if Terran and Protoss figure out how to beat the infestor. And when I say wait and see, I mean wait till HotS is out."
Well you're right. At the end of the day, it makes more sense to direct company resources to refine a new game that will bring immediate revenue gains the moment of release.
Just sucks that WOL got the short end of the stick. Wonder how long it'll take GOM, KESPA and the rest of the foreign tournament scene to shift to HOTS.
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On November 08 2012 09:31 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:27 geokilla wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. Um... when do you see 15 to 20 Sentries in the early to mid game... Never have I seen that many... http://www.gomtv.net/2012gsls4/vod/7059513 minutes in game clock, Finale has 17 Sentries. Kills Jaedong's entire army barely losing anything.
so you make 20 sentries on EVERY MATCHUP and at ALL POINTS OF GAME?;;;
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On November 08 2012 09:58 SeraKuDA wrote: I think fungal is fine, and infested terrans are the problem. They should try doubling the energy cost and see how that works out. It seems that there are just way too many available at all times, literally doubling the zerg army at times.
you and I both know that fungal could use some changes as well. It's like a super version of ensnare from bw, but far far better. The root portion or the damage portion could be changed and it would still be an effective and useful spell while at the same time reducing the current effectiveness of it. I do agree with the infested terrans being too cheap an energy cost though. I mean heck, the auto turret is twice as much energy for a unit that doesn't move but has more health.
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Has it ever been discussed changing fungal growth to only lock down bio units? (ie. fungal hurts all unittypes as now, but only locks down biological stuff!)
It would mean: TvZ: Vikings can be microed late game against blords and corruptors, ZvZ; Mutalisk being bio is still locked down (ie. it won't become a muta-fest again). PvZ: This is where it gets problematic, since infestors are required to stop several midgame allins, but overall nerfing fungal might allow strengthening another unit (hydra) so zergs can fend off protoss allins midgame without sentry lockdown / autodeath.
Atleast to me it seems like an interesting way to go with it.
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infesters cant fungal air. Done!!
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On November 08 2012 09:58 Adreme wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:56 Probe1 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game. Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating. Oddly enough most of those bunker changes became pointless the moment larger maps became the norm. That was something else Blizzard had to be dragged kicking in screaming to
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On November 08 2012 10:13 Imzoo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:28 forsooth wrote: Thank goodness they waited to see how the community would respond to thors without energy, or snipe, or blue flame... So true, blizzard like to persecute terrans. When it's a possible Zerg nerf we have to make MASS tests and wait SO LONG time to MAYBE have some thing.
Like I said, I still strongly believe its because DK who is in charge of balance is a zerg. I remember watching a stream where Catz, Todd and some other pros were discussing HOTS balance. It was funny how even when they were talking about general balance, they were defending their own races' "over powered" units and "under powered" units. They couldn't agree at all.
Seen that again and again in balance discussions from Idra, Korean pros etc.. with people defending their own races. Sure DK has to think of overall balance but his view is probably colored by his own gameplay. I'm sure he's a good Terran and Toss player but Zerg is definitely his go-to-race.
Oddly enough, in the case of the Infestors, its the rare situation where even Zerg pros say Infestor is pretty OP right now.
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On November 08 2012 10:19 Tabbris wrote: infesters cant fungal air. Done!!
You just killed ZvZ. Mutalisk are very OP without fungal and mutalisk vs mutalisk very volatile.
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Canada10930 Posts
Well it's a decent idea. If only there weren't so many spells that lock down micro from the other side (and now there's a new slow). Not that these abilities is necessarily bad. Just how endemic these spells are and how fast and how consistently large portions of the army can get rooted to one spot or cut off with FF's.
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On November 08 2012 10:20 Probe1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:58 Adreme wrote:On November 08 2012 09:56 Probe1 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:32 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: So what do you want us to discuss? How awesome it is that Blizzard listens to the community by stepping back for once and not nerfing something immediately, realizing that many strong trends in the past have become unpopular now, but at the same time how disgusting it is for the community (or least a vocal minority) to completely forget that and want them to patch things quickly? Infestor has become the bunker of SC2. The majority want it changed and think it's bad unit design. Blizzard isn't listening closely enough. This is one apprehensive step after nearly a year of stale and widely complained about late game. Not very awesome. If I'm late to work and my boss describes it as "awesome" I'd think my resume needs updating. Oddly enough most of those bunker changes became pointless the moment larger maps became the norm. That was something else Blizzard had to be dragged kicking in screaming to Are you seriously implying these passive nr30 minute abominations are a marked improvement over lost temple? There both terrible, just different ways. One makes you bash your head against the wall, the other you pass out from boredom.
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I'm happy there looking at the infestor, obviously this isnt new information but it needs to be restated because so many balance whiners are far too hasty in calling for changes. It would be irresponsible for blizzard to be anything but cautious. Especially with tight resources.
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Marine - base damage: 6 Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1 Infested Terran - supply: 0 Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25 Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans. For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy. If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food. If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 288 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities.
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@whatevername Yeah. I am. I played BW, WoL beta and WoL since launch night. I've played on the original lost temple when it was bloody new, I've played on SC2s shattered temple well over 500 times as all races and I've played every tournament/ladder version of it.
Shattered was a terrible, imbalanced map that instead of forcing the players to think, it forced them to play a certain way. The legacy of Shattered Temple will be "Well it wasn't as bad as desert oasis and at least they patched it 5 or 6 times so they recognized how bad their original idea was".
Now I have a question for you. Do you think that it is somehow a coincidence that all of popular ladder/tournament maps are community created? Or would you agree that there's an obvious correlation that Blizzard isn't top notch map designers.
I see infestor as the exact same deal. They need to get rid of root but they need even more to wake up to the community faster. It's currently taking them way too long to decide something is wrong and I am worried for the future of the game I very much love to play. (Although currently truth be told, it's more of a love hate thing)
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On November 08 2012 10:02 TimENT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:00 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:58 TimENT wrote:On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. Infestors rape ghosts and high templar because of 1+ broodlords behind. Then commit your army/stalkers/vikings/whatever to bring the infestors forward, Snipe/feedback, and remax before broods can push on, altho I doubt most zerg will push with just brood/corruptor if they lose most of their infestor support and will remax with lings. - Yes this is situational but it is just a suggestion. We can play this little hypothetical bullshit game all day, but infestors will just fungal those that jump forward, pull back, broodlords attack, another fungal. Plus 20 trillion, literally 20 trillion, infested terrans. This isn't even close to being about balance. This is god awful unit design.
I don't think I've seen literally 20 trillion infested terrans. 576 would be impressive to see at once, but 20 trillion would break the game. I mean... literally
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There is clearly an infestor BL problem in ZvP, but I would hold off on ZvT. Why aren't Terrans using ghosts? Remember before ghost snipe was discovered, people were telling Terrans to use ghosts for ages but they never did? How fucking obvious was it that ghost snipe would work well? You're telling me it was hard to figure that out? LOL given this history of the potential for new strategies to develop, we should hold off on calling ZvT imbalanced until Terrans have tried to work ghosts back in for EMP purposes.
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On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote: Marine - base damage: 6 Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1 Infested Terran - supply: 0 Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25 Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans. For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy. If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food. If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities. Check your math, 8 x 36 = 288.
On Topic: Infested terrans have too high stats for their energy cost, fungal is too simple to make effective. Corruptors shut down the only cost-effective response to broodlords; air units. The combination of larvae inject and broodlord/infestor/corruptor is beyond rediculous late game.
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On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote: Marine - base damage: 6 Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1 Infested Terran - supply: 0 Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25 Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans. For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy. If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food. If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities.
Your math is a bit odd. 36 x 8 = 288 not 576. But your point is valid. Infestors are insanely cost-efficient. Note also that while the broodlords rain damage, the infestor terran eggs are also huge dps sinks and affect pathing.
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I feel minor adjustments need to be made on the infestor.. what really needs to be fixed is the ability of a toss to shut it down... feedbacks should be aoe or someother new caster to be able to shut them down... the reason why tvz is such a fair matchup is because the ghost comes into play were toss doesn't have that option
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On November 08 2012 10:38 openbox1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote: Marine - base damage: 6 Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1 Infested Terran - supply: 0 Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25 Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans. For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy. If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food. If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities. Your math is a bit odd. 36 x 8 = 288 not 576. But your point is valid. Infestors are insanely cost-efficient. Note also that while the broodlords rain damage, the infestor terran eggs are also huge dps sinks and affect pathing.
72 . 8 - 576. WHOOPS.
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It took them a weekend of MVP raping foreign zergs to cancel raven buffs, and it was on the 2 only maps where it was viable, maps that aren't used anymore because they were terrible. The "wait and see if the community finds an answer" approach is always used for zerg when at the same time they over react to everything else and patch terran after an MLG or an IEM >< Way to kill your own game blizzard.
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Well, infested terrans should get a nerf in terms of cost. IT aren't the problem, it's literally just fungal. It's stupid that the infestor fills up all the holes in zergs design. It would be nice to have some variety.
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yes, HT needs to somehow be able to counter infestor, feedback is shorter range than fungal though, and if they buff feedback range that would mess with EMP too...
On November 08 2012 10:07 openbox1 wrote:Kydarian Amulet was removed because it provided Toss to convert gas directly to damage. Well.... Guess what, Zerg can cast fungal immediately after spawn... Isn't that gas directly to damage? Lets not talk about 8 marines per 2 supply or that infestor eggs soak up insane amounts of damage. I guess a big factor is that David Kim is a Zerg. See how quick Ghost were nerfed because they were good vs everything bio. After one or two tournaments when snipes became the go-to in the late game vs Zerg, Bliz was nono and the poor ghost got nerfed the heck out of it. No mass ghost late game. Isn't it strange they didn't say lets wait and see. Maybe Zerg can figure out a different way to take down mass ghost? Obviously the infestor is different. No its completely fine in its role as taking up 60-80 supply of a late game army. That's not too many. 20-35 infestors running around, just chilling. No Roaches, no hydras. Just a few lings, some gglords and corruptors and mass mass infestors. Not impressed by the sheer double standard.
Where did david or some blizz say he mains zerg? They all play random.
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This is the problem blizz faces. Although i agree that the infestor has seen too much usage, what mr. browder said is correct. Its the meta. Remember before terrans thought of a fast third OC that they had to pressure a zerg or lose? They realized that an extra base of mules was much better than a failed 2 rax. Remember when marine was OP? Remember when colossus was OP? Remember when chargelots were OP? (this one has been fixed in HOTS) The problem is that they don't know if players can find a solution to the infestor or not. We will never know if the meta will change if we nerf it or buff it. The problem is that this is a strategy game, and although infestors are a bit imba, we can't just call them imba and can them. It is hard to draw a line between balance and strategy, and this is exemplified by the examples mentioned earlier.
I think they should give the nerf a try, but leave it in PTR for a long while, and if players like it, they put it in. If peole find a solution without having to nerf, they dont have to put the nerf in. I dont want the infestor to be trashed like the ghost was. I quit terran because of the ghost nerf and because i was a frustrated noob who couldnt play ZvP after the ghost nerf.
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On November 08 2012 10:43 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:yes, HT needs to somehow be able to counter infestor, feedback is shorter range than fungal though, and if they buff feedback range that would mess with EMP too... Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:07 openbox1 wrote:Kydarian Amulet was removed because it provided Toss to convert gas directly to damage. Well.... Guess what, Zerg can cast fungal immediately after spawn... Isn't that gas directly to damage? Lets not talk about 8 marines per 2 supply or that infestor eggs soak up insane amounts of damage. I guess a big factor is that David Kim is a Zerg. See how quick Ghost were nerfed because they were good vs everything bio. After one or two tournaments when snipes became the go-to in the late game vs Zerg, Bliz was nono and the poor ghost got nerfed the heck out of it. No mass ghost late game. Isn't it strange they didn't say lets wait and see. Maybe Zerg can figure out a different way to take down mass ghost? Obviously the infestor is different. No its completely fine in its role as taking up 60-80 supply of a late game army. That's not too many. 20-35 infestors running around, just chilling. No Roaches, no hydras. Just a few lings, some gglords and corruptors and mass mass infestors. Not impressed by the sheer double standard. Where did david or some blizz say he mains zerg? They all play random.
You guys are looking at this wrong... its a balance TEAM they have... its not just one guy.. they are looking at multiple angles not non bias ones... they test all updates before they release... obviously hes not being a bias fuck and hes trying to make the game as good as possible for everyone
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. FF is strong in early and mid game for Protoss to defense and offense, but in late game it isn't a main problem. However FG is just ridiculous from mid to lategame, and Zerg in early game with queen buff is so retarded.
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Blizzard should fking adress the root and how it ruin micro in a supposed serious RTS game.
The imbalance is just another topic, is easy to weaken the unit, but the root is the issue that they are no talking about. And that disturb me a lot.
Edit.: Another point that disturb me is how long take the Blizz development team to see stuff.
Take the Warhound for example. EVERY master player and above, knew that the unit was hilariously op after reading the stats. EVERY. But they push the unit further. And I'm not even talking about how silly the design was.
Just look how the Infestor work. How good it is vs any army, vs any harass, at any point of the game, as a support unit, main ball, roam ball/map control, cloack harass, anything.
I really expect from a development team to be ahead of events. They are worryingly behind all the time in almost everything. It sounds rough, but is the hard truth.
On the other side, is somewhat remarkable how they keep trying despite how behind and how long they take to see what a lot of players see.
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if they nerf infestors i demand a nerf of sentries force fields. demand it....
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On November 08 2012 10:42 MrCon wrote: It took them a weekend of MVP raping foreign zergs to cancel raven buffs, and it was on the 2 only maps where it was viable, maps that aren't used anymore because they were terrible. The "wait and see if the community finds an answer" approach is always used for zerg when at the same time they over react to everything else and patch terran after an MLG or an IEM >< Way to kill your own game blizzard. Well everyone should blame MVP cuz the guy just handily fuck the race over with his sheer skill. Both ghost and raven.
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finally a statement! oh wait... it didn't actually SAY ANYTHING.
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I think everyone realizes the Infestor is a bit too good. Maybe take a half a second tick off of fungal and/or tone down the Infested Terrans a bit.
It's quite disappointing to see Blizzard not reacting with incremental changes that are obviously warranted.
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Everyone knew infestors were strong for well over a year. People started to realize how broken they were once maps stopped being Steppes of War-ish... it's kinda disappointing they aren't even considering a tweak.
Either way, I really hope this is Blizzard's new balance approach for ALL races, cause so far they seem to be using early SC2 history as a basis for how they nerf/buff.
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On November 08 2012 09:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote: I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff. nice observation, i hated seeing pro zergs just use 1 control group for their whole army, so that their infestors walk into the fight and sit there doing nothing <_> (who remembers Losira vs sC on Terminus haha)
So by having infestors in a separate control group is already a "vast improvement" for the zerg players. Ask terrans how many control groups they need to have in order to survive and not "screw up badly and lost in just one major fight"
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On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote: Marine - base damage: 6 Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1 Infested Terran - supply: 0 Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25 Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans. For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy. If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food. If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 288 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities. Infested terran cost: 25 energy Marine cost: Free
Joking aside, sheer numbers wont prove an imbalance. Remember that most of the eggs will die anyway, and that one can simple run away from them. They also get autokilled by AoE.
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Please just do it david kim...make 1 good decision and you will be forgiven for so many other horrible nerfs that you have done in the past.
Actually no i can't forgive him for what he did to the ghost...but still it would be nice to see a change on the 1 unit that everyone knows is completely single handedly winning zerg games.
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What bothers me with the whole race balance is that Zergs have (for the most part) a useless unit in hydralisks and one of the biggest complaints people have of infestors are that they do everything well (including anti-air).
A hydra buff (i.e. speed=lair, range=hive) coupled with a fungal nerf to air (maybe just keep it as a slow) or something along the lines of that, seems so obvious a solution.
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I only wish we saw more consistency with balance changes big or small, the ghost was never as widely used as the infestor is now but it was changed in a few months of being 'op'.
I would love to see a balance map and they can at least be trying things out.
Personally I think 3 supply infestor would be the simplest nerf
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Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
8 is the highest you can see, other than a few timing pushes (Huk did a few in pvz a while ago)
20 sentries? lol
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Altough the infestor might be slightly too good, but its a very very fine line before you completely screw over zerg which rely on infestors to survive in all matchups
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It is weird that Blizzard doesn't see why infestors are a problem now eventhough the unit itself hasn't change.
Let's look at TvZ, before for Queen patch, zerg would need to build spines, roaches, etc to deal with hellions. Now, good zerg which good ling control (Life, Leenock, etc) can defend pretty much with pure lings. This means their army a lot more mobile and they have better creep spread which allows them to expand quicker getting more gases. So they can a lot of times just tech straight to infestors from lings. If they see more aggressive build from terran (which causes terran to have lower econ), they can build units to defend but their eco advantage is still there.
It is like if terran could tech from marines/medivacs straight to BCs vs toss. I don't think the protoss would have an answer to BCs (besides vortex if terran doesn't split like in the Mvp Squirtle game). But that transition just isn't possible.
All in all, the transition is just a bit too easy to pull off now (although I do think the Queen changes were needed in the early game since zergs were dying to terran aggression too much). Since I do think the early/mid game is in a good spot, I think Blizzard should look into some late game improvements for the other races to deal with infestors/BLs.
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On November 08 2012 10:59 NonameAI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 10:24 Gamegene wrote: Marine - base damage: 6 Infested Terran - base damage: 8
Marine - supply: 1 Infested Terran - supply: 0 Infestor - supply: 2
Infested Terran - energy: 25 Infestor - energy capacity 200
Each Infestor can launch 8 Infested Terrans. For 2 supply you can have 8 marines with +2 on the field.
If you have 20 Infestors, you can launch 160 Infested Terrans with maximum energy. If you have 20 Infestors, they eat up 40 food. If you have 20 Infestors, you have 40 food, but are able to launch 160 Infested Terrans, on top of their other abilities.
If you're Leenock, you have 36 Infestors which eat up 72 food, and can launch 576 288 Infested Terrans on top of their other abilities. Infested terran cost: 25 energy Marine cost: Free Joking aside, sheer numbers wont prove an imbalance. Remember that most of the eggs will die anyway, and that one can simple run away from them. They also get autokilled by AoE.
While I agree with your assessment that sheer numbers won't prove imbalance, I have noticed a disturbing lategame strategy popping up as of late. Haven't really seen it when the Zerg wasn't already ahead though, but still it's pretty weird. Basically, you go pure infestor. Then, you lob dozens and dozens of infested terrans at the opponent. By the time the terran/protoss has finished mopping them up, you have the energy for another wave of a couple dozen infested terrans. Eventually the terran/protoss just dies because the repeated attacks force him to turtle and try to defend himself against wave after wave of completely free units. You should not be allowed to just mass one single unit and spam one single ability to win a game.
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On November 08 2012 09:29 malaan wrote: It's just fungal growth that needs looking at... everything else is fine.
infested terran for 25 mana is a too strong these infested terran have +1 dmg then the normal ones and are for free
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Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that
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On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that
It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them.
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On November 08 2012 11:20 IAmMajiC wrote: Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use. Also keep in mind that Terrans have gotten a lot better at countering muta/ling/bane compared to before. Marine splitting micro has improved tremendously among most Terran pros in particular, and many Terrans have gotten better at deflecting Muta harass.
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On November 08 2012 11:18 perser84 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:29 malaan wrote: It's just fungal growth that needs looking at... everything else is fine. infested terran for 25 mana is a too strong these infested terran have +1 dmg then the normal ones and are for free
Not to mention the strategy of throwing bazillions of IT eggs on the tanks and marines lines and the splashed tank shots will injured the marines and tanks themselves. Seriously infestors are just too versatile.
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On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them.
There's ALWAYS a GSL going on. Would you rather they do it during the semi-finals or something?
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ
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On November 08 2012 09:28 forsooth wrote: Thank goodness they waited to see how the community would respond to thors without energy, or snipe, or blue flame...
They're doing it now, and they said they were going to start doing it now several months back just after the queen patch. Better some time than never.
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On November 08 2012 11:28 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:20 IAmMajiC wrote: Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use. Also keep in mind that Terrans have gotten a lot better at countering muta/ling/bane compared to before. Marine splitting micro has improved tremendously among most Terran pros in particular, and many Terrans have gotten better at deflecting Muta harass.
There are meta game shifts. I would say that in the late 2011 and early 2012, terrans got a bit too good at defending vs ling/bane/muta (unless you are DRG). But now, I think zerg are going much more ling heavy (or just for pure ling/muta) which seems to be much more effective. With proper control, they seem to be able to take out entrench terran armies. This is also probably due to the fact that terrans play a lot more eco now to counter the early 4th from zerg so they have less army when the ling/muta bust comes.
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On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ
It's not that terrans need to START using emp, terrans were using emp before snipe became useless. Eh, just wait for HoTS if you're a terran player imo, WoL is too goofed up to be fair. Every time they nerf or buff something it makes something else imbalanced.
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Their approach is understandable, but fungal really is bad by design. I have a few ideas as to why it's just now being recognized as overpowered:
a. micro has developed to the point where not being able to spread/flank is a serious disadvantage, b. infested terrans have gradually gained acceptance as the primary source of tank/dps in battles, c. games have gotten longer which means more energy, and infestors can unload max energy much faster than the other casters.
I think that if you removed fungal entirely and allowed the Infestor to neural parasite while burrowed, it would still be a damn good unit.
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How much do tournament results mean in balancing the game? IMO not as much as you think. From early, mid to late game every race has some possibility of overwhelming the others that isn't attributed to the players being clever or innovative...but simply bad design.
Coming from a FG background. In fighting games where characters are almost never balanced....I hear often when the community believes a character to be overly overpowered, "well he isn't winning every tournament." Yet the character might have an infinite or an overpowered set of moves.
Balance has to do with the details, not the win %. In BW they're were moments were Terrans dominated, then zergs dominated, then protoss. But people didn't complain about imbalances, because the answers where in the details. You never saw a build that didn't have a fair response from the opposing race. We attributed these moments of specific race dominance to maps, meta game shifts and most importantly skill.
SC2 is just an unbalanced game. From the ground up it has weak fundamentals in design. As a protoss, I will admit that warpgates are silly for early game tech...force fields are absurd. To keep these gimmicks in the game, blizzard made gateway units terrible. That's why the race operates on FF timing attacks and colossus death balls. A lot of the nerfs and buffs to the race, are simply Blizzards pathetic attempt to force a terrible design (warp gates) into the game. And what are their reasons for doing this? Warpgates are unique from the other races.
It's blatantly obvious the infestor is too strong for a spellcaster. It can create an army of marines with no cost. It can shut down pretty much all Air tech, because of fungals+inf Marines. It can support any army as well, as become the army.
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On November 08 2012 11:30 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. There's ALWAYS a GSL going on. Would you rather they do it during the semi-finals or something?
They just want Zergs to win a few more major tournaments before they do something about the infestors. Proof?
David Kim's interview, when asked about Zerg dominating in WOL. He replied:
"Yes, we are receiving tons of feedbacks regarding this. However, zergs are not winning all the major high-end tournaments."
It sounds like they want to pay back the Zerg that was having a "miserable" 2011. I am not buying that, Nestea has 3 GSL championships. DRG Life Fruitdealer are GSL champions. not to mention the recent MLG that was dominated by Leenock and Life. Not to mention Leenock also won a MLG before... and not to mention Stephano was also sweeping foreign tournament like nobody's business... The no.1 GM spot here in SEA server here is iMMafia (zerg). During the early days the no.1 spot was always Moonglade (zergy)... Sen is also dominating Taiwanese scene... the list goes on
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This is entirely a design issue as well. The Infestor fills every role a Zerg needs. Aoe damage, anti air, harassment, anti harassment. Rather than being overpowered, I think it's over useful.
This ^
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I don't think Infestor's are the problem in general, yeah they're too cost efficient spawning free units but when you see 6 queens with full energy mass transfusing them rendering them invincible that's a problem.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk)
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On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ
I would love for Blizzard to try one of their balance maps like before, with one minor change: reducing Infestor size. That would make EMP a lot more effective, just like it is against clumped up HTs.
Course, this doesn't really address the infestor issues in PvZ at all
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Whats boring is that it is a caster and all the spells are just different ways to do direct damage.
If you look at the coolest casters they all have one kinda-annoying skill and then one kill everything skill.
BW ghost, defiler, wc3 shaman, witch doctor, priest, etc. They are focused on utility, not dealing direct damage.
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I'm not sure how he can say that Infestors have been seeing much more play recently. Many pros and even many casuals have been using Infestors as their STAPLE unit for over a year. For example, look at destiny. He used Infestors for the longest time, even after blizzard nerfed neural.
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I support waiting for a metagame shift, but the problem exists nearly a year now, Blizzard waited long enough, they need to do something!!! Make FG to slow instead of snare. Could bring more exciting for watching. because players could still micro their units a bit!
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On November 08 2012 12:11 seaofsaturn wrote: Whats boring is that it is a caster and all the spells are just different ways to do direct damage.
If you look at the coolest casters they all have one kinda-annoying skill and then one kill everything skill.
BW ghost, defiler, wc3 shaman, witch doctor, priest, etc. They are focused on utility, not dealing direct damage.
No one uses BW ghosts. Defilers did TONS of damage...
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On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk)
The guy did provide examples where pros did actually use 15-20 infestors in other posts. That being said, 15-20 sentries are not common at all and is nothing like having 15-20 infestors.
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
Wow did you just compare a unit that kills everything to Sentries with torch lights?
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On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk)
I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game.
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On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. I remember there was a joke that KeSPA Protosses used to make a ton of Sentries, but that was when they were still very inexperienced with the game. I think they now know better.
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On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game.
Well, it really depends what is meant be 'uncommon'. Is < 1%,<10%, <20%? Not worth it to argue semantics.
As many people have posted, it is the flexibility of the infestors which is the big issue. For mass sentries, you can hard counter with burrow, drops. But even if you know the zerg is massing infestors, there isn't really a unit/comp you can make which hardcounters it.
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On November 08 2012 12:37 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. I remember there was a joke that KeSPA Protosses used to make a ton of Sentries, but that was when they were still very inexperienced with the game. I think they now know better.
Bisu??
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On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius.
The Infestor clearly has much more utility throughout the entire course of a game than the Sentry. Infestors are commonly used as the basis for Zerg's late game army. Show me the games where Sentries continue to play a critical role into the late game and constitute the backbone of Protoss' composition. Comparing the Infestor the to Sentry or just about any other unit at this point is a bit silly.
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On November 08 2012 12:42 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. The Infestor clearly has much more utility throughout the entire course of a game than the Sentry. Infestors are commonly used as the basis for Zerg's late game army. Show me the games where Sentries continue to play a critical role into the late game and constitute the backbone of Protoss' composition. Comparing the Infestor the to Sentry or just about any other unit at this point is a bit silly.
I think the prenerf ghosts were probably the closest things we had that match up to the utility of the infestor. Good in small number (6-8) in the mid game due to AoE (EMP). Can overwhelm in the late game if massed with snipe.
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On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game.
The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another support unit being massed to great success.
Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL.
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On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ
Make EMP remove all energy again instead of only 100 and EMP would be worth it. It blows ass that you need to hit an infestor twice just to remove all its energy (that and you will only hit 1-2 out of 15 with those 2 emps).
I would be fine if you kept fungal the way it is if you gave infestors a huge speed nerf. They are ridiculously fast. If you won't nerf speed you need to significantly nerf fungal and ITs and/or bring back full energy removal on EMP (from a TVZ perspective).
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Since when have Zergs been massing infestors only recently...?
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation.
Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:48 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:34 Plexa wrote:Kinda of annoying that they still want to wait. It's not like infestors became OP overnight, they have always been very strong and we've known this. However, as Zerg skill has gotten better and timing have been worked out they've been able to maximise the infestors effectiveness whereas other races are running out of ideas. With that said, Terrans need to start using EMP in TvZ Make EMP remove all energy again instead of only 100 and EMP would be worth it. It blows ass that you need to hit an infestor twice just to remove all its energy (that and you will only hit 1-2 out of 15 with those 2 emps). I would be fine if you kept fungal the way it is if you gave infestors a huge speed nerf. They are ridiculously fast. If you won't nerf speed you need to significantly nerf fungal and ITs and/or bring back full energy removal on EMP (from a TVZ perspective). No, I'm loathe to try and rebalance units in a way that would affect the other matchups. I think part of the issue is the infestors being pretty large, make the unit model small so EMP is at least somewhat viable.
To my earlier point though, this may mean that Collosus fire will fry infestors too easily, not sure how their targetting actually works
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Disregarding balance completely, I think the infestor would be a much more interesting unit if fungal were simply a projectile spell e.g. like the BW Science Vessel's EMP. Giving players a chance to micro against it would create more excitement and strategic options; which, it's worth mentioning, most people hate fungal because it is 100% unavoidable unless you predict where your opponent will cast it. This also makes chain fungal-ing more strategic.
It might be easier to balance if there were more options in dealing with it. Making fungal a projectile would accomplish this too.
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I don't think there aren't counters to infestors per se, but certainly they are far easier to use than they are to play against. By an incredible margin.
They are a big reason why zerg is overrepresented in foreign proscenes, as much as terran being hard to use is why there are very few notable foreign terrans.
The challenge for Blizzard is do you balance for everyone, or for Korea where zergs are still doing really good, but the higher player skill ceiling makes terran and protoss much more viable. Also Korea doesn't have stability at the top amongst races - protoss dominating WCS Korea a couple months ago and now have had two seasons of GSL where they have underperformed.
Of course the problem of (repeat) fungals being by far the most anti-hype ability in the game has nothing to do with balance and probably warrants some sort of tweak based on that alone.
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On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of.
Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy.
I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin".
That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords.
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What I feel would be good would be to add some micro to fungal. Maybe a fungal bomb will be seen and explodes in 1 sec leaving fungal spores and units in the area will get fungalled as it is now. It doesn't make sense that storm can be evaded but not fungal and yet you will take the full damage once it hits.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:58 Elwar wrote: I don't think there aren't counters to infestors per se, but certainly they are far easier to use than they are to play against. By an incredible margin.
They are a big reason why zerg is overrepresented in foreign proscenes, as much as terran being hard to use is why they're are very few notable foreign terrans.
The challenge for Blizzard is do you balance for everyone, or for Korea where zergs are still doing really good, but the higher player skill ceiling makes terran and protoss much more viable. Also Korea doesn't have stability at the top amongst races - protoss dominating WCS Korea a couple months ago and now have had two seasons of GSL where they have underperformed.
Of course the problem of (repeat) fungals being by far the most anti-hype ability in the game has nothing to do with balance and probably warrants some sort of tweak based on that alone. The Korean Zergs were actually doing pretty well, and still are with non-infestor centric play when they pull it out. Wasn't Korean TvZ in the month before the Queen buff 51-49% as well?
I just find it somewhat concerning that Terrans get nerfed quite a lot based on games in the GSL/Blizzcon and in general based upon playstyles that only the top Korean players can reliably pulled off. Yet from an outsider looking in the same rationale isn't really being applied to Zergs when they do well.
I play Protoss by the way, I'm not some aggravated Terran player but it just seems curious.
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On November 08 2012 09:59 Kreb wrote: I dont really get why the focus of the infestor-whine seem to be fungal. Fungal is fine if you ask me. People say its anti-micro, and while that holds some truth i think fungal still creates very interesting scenarios vs terran bio and maybe also to a lesser extent vs blink stalkers and vs roaches in roach/infestor battles.
The only problem I see with the infestor is that its too versatile, and thereby pretty much impossible to overmake. If a T makes 100 marines he'll lose to colossi or fungal/banelings. If a Z makes 50 roaches he'll lose to immortals, marauders and tanks. Etc. The problem is Infestors can both be the support and the core part of your army. Or, the infestors arent the core, the infested Terrans are. ITs are the damage soakers, the anti air (vs spread anti air at least, fungal vs clumped), high damage dealers and also shield the important units (infestors + BLs) from being attacked. And you cant make too many of them. If you have 30 infestors, adding another 5 will always be useful because it means more ITs.
And thats the problem. To me, a nerf to Infested Terrans seems to be much more reasonable than fungal. Fungal should still have its uses, but you cant make 30 infestors for the purpose of fungaling. And while its fine infestors can use up spare energy to something useful (ravens have turrets, ghosts snipe, templars become archons when they've used their energy) the infested terrans are just too good of an energy dump. Making them cost more energy and/or deal less dmg and/or die faster and/or something else is to me the best step to put infestors back where they should be: a useful support spell caster unit. Not a core army unit.
This this!!! There are a lot of times where the zerg has a 300 pop army. I don't get it why the zerg can have so many army supply. Why a free unit is better than his counter part? Why is IT better than a marine? Why they are affected by upgrades?
I really don't get it, simply why the IT exists, why zerg is allowed to go in the games without antiair, you never see hydras because they cost money and are slow.
To me nerf the infested terran to not be able to be upgraded, and nerf the IT to be inferior in stats to a marine or make the spell cost double, seriously 25 energy?
Now you don't need to kill the zerg army twice, but three or four times, for me that is the problem, zerg cannot be cost efficient (well not THAT cost efficient), or else all the mecanism to produce faster and have more bases are simply OP.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. The timings I see Rain hit are really, really tight 3 base timings,often at 150/160 supply and they work because Zerg are cutting other units and transitioning to Broods/spines. If Zerg weren't doing that the timings wouldn't be working. Zerg have other ways to play that are being discarded in favour of getting to their hive army quicker and quicker, not so much in vP but definitely in vT.
I don't like Immortal/sentry myself so don't think that I do. It should be an all-in that is strong unscouted, but it's taking game after game even when the Zerg knows it coming. When I lose on ladder to a Zerg who says that 'well your 2 base timings are OP, do that noob' it's disheartening, we'd like to be able to win in straight-up ways.
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Why not change Fungal Growth so that instead of freezing your units, it reduces them to 25% movement speed instead? That way units caught in a Fungal have a tiny chance of escaping or spreading out before another one catches them.
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. It IS overpowered and stupid to watch due to its stupid lockdown mechanic. In addition to this the Infestor has a "free unit" for almost no energy and Infested Terrans can be clumped up far more tightly than the Ravens autoturret and has wayyy more dps that way. Thus there are two super awesome spells on one caster which can deal with about everything.
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On November 08 2012 13:08 Zzoram wrote: Why not change Fungal Growth so that instead of freezing your units, it reduces them to 25% movement speed instead? That way units caught in a Fungal have a tiny chance of escaping or spreading out before another one catches them.
why not just make it like storm?
That would be interesting to try. Why remove unit speed at all?
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Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs??
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On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote: Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs??
KA was way more broken than fungal is lol. Protoss weren't even good enough to use it back then. Can you imagine seeing it today? People didn't even open templar back then as often as they do now. You litteraly couldn't attack a protoss with KA.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote: Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs?? Because even with KA in the game Protoss play wasn't nearly as refined as it is now, they weren't dominating games with it, but the potential was there. Protoss nowadays with KA would absolute MURDER Terrans in PvT so, even if it was a change that wasn't all-that merited at the time, long-term it has looked the right one.
Ghost one is still a mystery to me, maybe it's nostalgia but damn, that was cool to watch, and I don't recall anybody but MVP really making it a hallmark of their TvZ
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On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords.
Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:16 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL. Exactly, Oz vs Leenock at MLG was one of the best PvZ's I've seen lately because Leenock showed that Zergs can actually play aggressively in the midgame. His Symbol-style drop play and multipronged aggression on Antiga was beautiful to watch.
It wasn't that long ago that Stephano was crushing every Protoss with maxing out on Roaches superfast. Protoss go into super quick immortal pumpage to defend this so why don't Zergs metagame more often with big Mutalisk plays, to take one example?
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On November 08 2012 13:10 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:08 Zzoram wrote: Why not change Fungal Growth so that instead of freezing your units, it reduces them to 25% movement speed instead? That way units caught in a Fungal have a tiny chance of escaping or spreading out before another one catches them. why not just make it like storm? That would be interesting to try. Why remove unit speed at all? Although I think Zerg needs at least some kind of crowd control spell or else their units get kited indefinitely. I think separating the damage and rooting aspects of Fungal into at least two different spells would be a good start rather than just completely focusing on one aspect.
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The only change in the infestor is people finally figured out that you don't have to suicide them by keeping them in your 1 control group. People actually take care of them and now they are showing how good they are.
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On November 08 2012 13:16 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL.
You really think a player like DRG, who has time and time again expressed his dislike of Broodlord/Infestor for being too slow and clumsy and not suiting his style, who is one of the best multitaskers in the game with very high APM, chooses to tech BL because he wants to?
Zerg has no other option, every other army composition just melts to the Toss deathball once it reaches critical mass. Before, many Korean Zergs who don't like BL/Infestor used to play Muta/Ling, but it increasingly has become a liability, as Protoss players learned to defend better against it, and build a lot of cannons before moving out to make base-races less effective. Not to mention, the mere threat of that never used Phoenix upgrade is enough to make it a very dangerous proposition for the Zerg in the first place.
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On November 08 2012 13:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote: Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs?? Because even with KA in the game Protoss play wasn't nearly as refined as it is now, they weren't dominating games with it, but the potential was there. Protoss nowadays with KA would absolute MURDER Terrans in PvT so, even if it was a change that wasn't all-that merited at the time, long-term it has looked the right one. Ghost one is still a mystery to me, maybe it's nostalgia but damn, that was cool to watch, and I don't recall anybody but MVP really making it a hallmark of their TvZ
Yeah, its obvious that the potential was there, but they nipped it right in the bud. It was like a gamble, if it turns out that Terrans couldn't deal with it, then they made they right change.
Its just so frustrating how they are being so passive on Infestors. Its not only a potential balance issue but also a "making games boring for the spectator" issue. Previous changes they made only had a potential balance issue and they took action almost instantly compared to how they're dealing with the Infestor.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:25 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:16 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL. You really think a player like DRG, who has time and time again expressed his dislike of Broodlord/Infestor for being too slow and clumsy and not suiting his style, who is one of the best multitaskers in the game with very high APM, chooses to tech BL because he wants to? Zerg has no other option, every other army composition just melts to the Toss deathball once it reaches critical mass. Before, many Korean Zergs who don't like BL/Infestor used to play Muta/Ling, but it increasingly has become a liability, as Protoss players learned to defend better against it, and build a lot of cannons before moving out to make base-races less effective. Not to mention, the mere threat of that never used Phoenix upgrade is enough to make it a very dangerous proposition for the Zerg in the first place. DRG still does a lot more in early and midgame aggression than many of the other Zergs we're seeing, and he's shown some good mutaling chops vP in the past as well. It's not the ONLY way to play but BL/Infestor play is of course useful to have in the arsenal.
However less talented Zergs can use it as a crutch and beat better players by playing that style, over and over again. Anyway, regardless of this, HoTS should at least theoretically give Zergs other good lategame styles, so at the very least when that drops the Infestor shouldn't be as catch-all as it is currently
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There is a hatchery bug?..
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:27 MasterCynical wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:15 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 13:12 MasterCynical wrote: Its been several months at least.....
How come they didn't wait over several months on the khaydarin amulet removal and snipe nerfs?? Because even with KA in the game Protoss play wasn't nearly as refined as it is now, they weren't dominating games with it, but the potential was there. Protoss nowadays with KA would absolute MURDER Terrans in PvT so, even if it was a change that wasn't all-that merited at the time, long-term it has looked the right one. Ghost one is still a mystery to me, maybe it's nostalgia but damn, that was cool to watch, and I don't recall anybody but MVP really making it a hallmark of their TvZ Yeah, its obvious that the potential was there, but they nipped it right in the bud. It was like a gamble, if it turns out that Terrans couldn't deal with it, then they made they right change. Its just so frustrating how they are being so passive on Infestors. Its not only a potential balance issue but also a "making games boring for the spectator" issue. Previous changes they made only had a potential balance issue and they took action almost instantly compared to how they're dealing with the Infestor. Well we're seeing it now a lot in TvZ how the matchup has been really reduced in quality, both a consequence of how good infestors are in general, plus the increased freedom that the Queen buff gave them. Terran are having to play a lot greedier, which opens them up in the early game, Leenock's games today are a great example. Terran can still win games, of course they can but it's either through hyper-greed into a pre-brood timing, or often some kind of aggressive move like a 2 rax, into greed, into some pre-brood attempt at timing.
Previously I felt personally that the matchup was pretty damn good, with pretty standard, stable openers into similar midgames and the better player tended to win.
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Boom. This and concussive shells.
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The reason Blizz are so passive about infestors is that it's a complicated change. So much of the zerg mid game defense and end game army pivots around infestors. Nerfing them would, without a doubt, make every zerg composition weaker partially because, as everyone correctly points out, getting infestors is ALWAYS a good choice.
Comparing sentry to infestor is stupid. Sentries are on a clock. After a certain point you've sunk 1500+ gas into the lowest dps unit in the game. You're just dead.
If someone can tell me what number of infestors is 'over making' that would be awesome. That would at least assist your claim that they aren't OP.
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On November 08 2012 13:36 CecilSunkure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Boom. This and concussive shells.
No it's pretty overpowered too
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I would like to know why infestors don't need to research burrow movement to move while burrowed. Roaches need to research it to move while burrowed....
I'd also like to know why infestors are allowed to cast IT while burrowed.
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On November 08 2012 13:37 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Boom. This and concussive shells. No it's pretty overpowered too
I dunno about you kids but watching concussive shell micro at the start of games is really awesome. Force fields when placed properly and not spammed like mad are pretty awesome to watch as well. How is it boring and uninspiring to see a perfect slice of an army with forcefields? If anything it's awesome and inspiring.
It's like with anything - if it's used effectively then it is powerful.
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On November 08 2012 13:38 ReachTheSky wrote: I would like to know why infestors don't need to research burrow movement to move while burrowed. Roaches need to research it to move while burrowed....
I'd also like to know why infestors are allowed to cast IT while burrowed.
hell, make them cast it slower or something while borrowed, there's no choice or downside to casting it while burrowed
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On November 08 2012 13:37 Kharnage wrote: The reason Blizz are so passive about infestors is that it's a complicated change. So much of the zerg mid game defense and end game army pivots around infestors. Nerfing them would, without a doubt, make every zerg composition weaker partially because, as everyone correctly points out, getting infestors is ALWAYS a good choice.
Comparing sentry to infestor is stupid. Sentries are on a clock. After a certain point you've sunk 1500+ gas into the lowest dps unit in the game. You're just dead.
If someone can tell me what number of infestors is 'over making' that would be awesome. That would at least assist your claim that they aren't OP. I think the easiest change to make, that does not help the PvZ problem, is just to revert the queen buff. The queen buff basically removed any form of early game control that terran had. With that control, zerg had to invest money earlier (less drones) to get a third base. Which allowed terrans to be able to push out before infestors hit the field in mass, which means zerg had to spend gas to defend the first terran push, further delaying the infestor/BL composition. While terran was still on a clock, if the zerg could fend out wave after wave of terran while managing to piece together a strong economy to support an expensive composition then it felt like they deserved to have that composition. Now it is so hard for terran to punish any greed that the infestor/BL composition is almost handed to them.
While that doesn't fix the situation (primarily PvZ which still needs some help), it at least puts a bandaid on the game that will even up the winrates again until a good fix to infestors is decided on.
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Cooldown on IT.
Fungal doesn't root air OR fungal doesn't root massive (or both?)
Done. Solved.
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in terms of balance infestors may seem ok, but its a fucking boring unit. Fungal is basically an AOE stun. And stun is the most annoying thing in the game.
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On November 08 2012 13:37 Kharnage wrote: The reason Blizz are so passive about infestors is that it's a complicated change. So much of the zerg mid game defense and end game army pivots around infestors. Nerfing them would, without a doubt, make every zerg composition weaker partially because, as everyone correctly points out, getting infestors is ALWAYS a good choice.
Comparing sentry to infestor is stupid. Sentries are on a clock. After a certain point you've sunk 1500+ gas into the lowest dps unit in the game. You're just dead.
If someone can tell me what number of infestors is 'over making' that would be awesome. That would at least assist your claim that they aren't OP.
quit feeding the troll
overmaking them would be when you have too much infestors to spend their energy with your limited apm lolz
Seriously theres no situation where I wouldnt want moar infestors... to harass? check. to defend?? check. to attack? check. hell they can be a decent scout if no detection!!
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"HE HAS TOO MANY INFESTORS!"
you will never hear this. ever.
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Some of you guys are forgetting spellcasters in WC3 - A RTS GAME, MADE BY BLIZZARD
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Double costs on all spellcasting units (except Queen) and decrease their weaknesses to compenstate.
Buff Sentry and High Templar move speed and very slightly increase Ghost move speed and HP. Infestors could get +1 base armor since their speed is not an issue due to fungal and their HP is already decent. Buff Raven move speed as well. Half healing done to units by Queens since they aren't getting a cost nerf.
Doubling gas costs on VERY gas heavy units will limit spellcaster use to reasonable levels for all races. The only possible issue I could see with this is that the Sentry nerf could hurt PvP excessively and potentially early game TvP, but they could nerf the Sentry less than the other casters if they had to.
Suddenly, you've vastly increased the skill cap (keeping your casters alive is CRITICAL) and dealt with the "lol lost all my templar/infestors/ghosts a-moving them with my army, better make 10 more".
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It's pretty insane that he posts this now.
"The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see. "
It's been overpowered for months. I know what will be overpowered next month... the infestor. The patch happened 3-4 months ago and Zerg is still stupidly strong. A spellcaster shouldn't be as versatile as the infestor is where your army composition is 50% of one spellcaster.
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On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game.
This. Why are support units massed like this? I don't want to draw comparisons to BW for like the 5 billionth time, but you almost NEVER EVER saw more than 20 spellcasters of ANY unit unless the game dragged on the near hour mark and even then that was rare. Why? Because they will not win the battle for you, merely support you, hence they are support casters...
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Canada10930 Posts
On November 08 2012 13:42 MonkSEA wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:37 Chaggi wrote:On November 08 2012 13:36 CecilSunkure wrote:On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Boom. This and concussive shells. No it's pretty overpowered too I dunno about you kids but watching concussive shell micro at the start of games is really awesome. Force fields when placed properly and not spammed like mad are pretty awesome to watch as well. How is it boring and uninspiring to see a perfect slice of an army with forcefields? If anything it's awesome and inspiring. It's like with anything - if it's used effectively then it is powerful. I dislike concussion shells micro because it kills attack-retreat micro for the stalker. I like the attack-retreat micro with marines and marauders (well, ok maybe just marines), but the way to handle that is to play with burst damage and the delay between moving and attacking. NOT entirely denying a form of micro for the opponent.
What I mean is the attack-retreat stalker micro vs marines. It's not perfect because of the delay on attack with stalkers (standard fair for SC2 units), but it's good micro. Concussion shells come out. Boom. Can't micro like that anymore.
And that's at the heart of the problem with most of these spells and abilities. It's a one-way ability that denies micro to the other side. Playing with burst damage and attack-move delay effects only the micro potential of the unit in question.
Most of the micro denying spells and abilities would be alright if they weren't so prevalent. A lot of the micro options in SC2 involve restricting unit movement for their opponent. The more the game revolves around locking down the other players unit movment, rather than it being the occasional use from a high tier unit, the more battles become frustrating.
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On November 08 2012 13:53 Gamegene wrote: "HE HAS TOO MANY INFESTORS!"
you will never hear this. ever.
Yea lol.
A unit that can burrow move, AOE damage/snare ground and air, and spawn it's own high DPS minions. All for 100/150 and 2 food...
Who ever thought this shit would be overpowered...?
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
Nope. This is actually extremely uncommon; rare in fact to ever see this.
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On November 08 2012 14:11 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:53 Gamegene wrote: "HE HAS TOO MANY INFESTORS!"
you will never hear this. ever. Yea lol. A unit that can burrow move, AOE damage/snare ground and air, and spawn it's own high DPS minions. All for 100/150 and 2 food... Who ever thought this shit would be overpowered...?
lol yeah its a tad strong. I sure wish ghosts had that much god damn utility. ghosts cost double the minerals of an infestor but 50 gas less, but offer a fraction of the utility that infestors do
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On November 08 2012 13:25 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 13:16 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 08 2012 12:59 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:50 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:47 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:36 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 12:34 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 12:10 ErAsc2 wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. LOL :D This comment made me laugh. I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but when people discuss balance, it's usuallly related to top pro games (and not gold league where mass sentry strategies work because Zergs doesn't know of baneling drops yet perhaps, idk) I know you don't mean to seem stupid, but do you laugh when you watch Code S too? I provided some links in this thread for you to have a good laugh, genius. Those are not in any way standard games you're referring, they're not indicative of some trend towards 'mass sentry' being useful against almost every composition in the game. The original post I responded to said Infestors were a support unit and as such shouldn't be massable. I gave an example of another unit being massed to great success. Infestors certainly don't counter everything on their own as some here like to claim. If they did, DRG wouldn't have died to Rain's pushes again and again at OSL. It's completely irrelevant too, you're comparing a few wonky games to the standard Zerg play we've been seeing in months. You've been called on this by numerous posters, because it's a non-comparable situation. Oh and Rain's razor-thin, pre-Infestor-Broodlord timings, which are designed purely to kill a Zerg before he gets the lategame Bl/Infestor/Spine composition up are hardly important when assessing the strength OF that composition which the infestor is an integral part of. Then the people in this thread and several others like it in the last few months need to make up their mind about what is OP, Infestors, or Broodlords, or Broodlord/Infestor synergy. I see more posts demanding straight nerfs to Infestors, which would make Zerg even weaker to those "razor thin" pre Hive timings. It's OK when Zerg loses a 200 supply army while barely killing anything off pre-Hive, but when finally the tables are turned and it's Zerg's turn to dish out the pain, OMG nerf, because before the timing was "razor thin". That's some interesting definition of thin, starting from 10 minute 2 base Immortal/Sentry pushes, all the way to the 3 base pre-Hive of Rain or Creator, where Zerg, with all those OP Infestors, just rolls over and dies without Broodlords. Not really. The timings are meant to hit Zerg that are basically sitting on their asses doing nothing just hoping to rush to the unbeatable composition. If the unit was nerfed, and thus the composition wasn't as good, Zergs wouldn't be sitting on their asses doing absolutely nothing. They'd be doing something else besides massing a huge ass spine wall and teching to BL. You really think a player like DRG, who has time and time again expressed his dislike of Broodlord/Infestor for being too slow and clumsy and not suiting his style, who is one of the best multitaskers in the game with very high APM, chooses to tech BL because he wants to? Zerg has no other option, every other army composition just melts to the Toss deathball once it reaches critical mass. Before, many Korean Zergs who don't like BL/Infestor used to play Muta/Ling, but it increasingly has become a liability, as Protoss players learned to defend better against it, and build a lot of cannons before moving out to make base-races less effective. Not to mention, the mere threat of that never used Phoenix upgrade is enough to make it a very dangerous proposition for the Zerg in the first place.
What? You make absolutely no logical connection there. It doesn't mean he plays it because there's no other way to play. It means he plays it because it's the best current way.
Why play a style that might win you 45-55% of the time when there's a style that will win throughout the game when there's another style that has 50% chance of winning in the midgame and 75% chance of winning in the lategame?
If something is imbalanced, there is little incentive to take an alternative route that isn't as good.
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Infestor by itself isn't necessarily OP, though it certainly is banging on that door. It's Infestors with Broodlords that really make you scratch your head. The main problem is that fungal growth roots the enemy and can be easily chained together. I argued against this way back when it was first introduced - at least now finally more people are seeing how absurd it is. All you have to do to fix the Infestor is remove its root ability.
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On November 08 2012 14:01 Xeris wrote: It's pretty insane that he posts this now.
"The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see. "
It's been overpowered for months. I know what will be overpowered next month... the infestor. The patch happened 3-4 months ago and Zerg is still stupidly strong. A spellcaster shouldn't be as versatile as the infestor is where your army composition is 50% of one spellcaster.
I think the issue is that Blizzard have noted that they've not sat on certain strategies long enough and applied what can only be seen as a reactive hotfix before the pros and community at large can figure out the actual issue.
Idra has said that by the time the reaper fix came in, zerg were pretty much able to deal with the issue. Reapers now untouched vs zerg. MVP mass sniped zerg in some single digit amount of games and it got nerfed. Ghosts now rarely seen. Thorzain beat immortals with strike canon and it got nerfed. No-one even remembers strike canons now.
They probably have sat on this one too long, but honestly people have confused a lot of the complaints. Only 2 months ago people were blaming queens for the matchup, but now the complaints are about infestors. I don't think queens are the issue at all, it got solved. The infestor issue has definitely been around far longer, but has only come to light thanks to a combination of recent balance changes, metagame shifts and more experience with the unit.
Still, some people are on what could be read between the lines which is that they might not be as invested in WoL with HotS working towards release. In addition with the sheer amount of tournaments coming at the end of the year, they also may be concerned with making a patch which dramatically shifts metagame at this stage else you end up with those few WCS qualifiers everyone likes to quote.
The question is not "Is Infestor an issue?" or "Does Blizzard even realise?" but "Will they patch WoL? And if so, will it still be some time away?"
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On November 08 2012 14:25 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:01 Xeris wrote: It's pretty insane that he posts this now.
"The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see. "
It's been overpowered for months. I know what will be overpowered next month... the infestor. The patch happened 3-4 months ago and Zerg is still stupidly strong. A spellcaster shouldn't be as versatile as the infestor is where your army composition is 50% of one spellcaster. I think the issue is that Blizzard have noted that they've not sat on certain strategies long enough and applied what can only be seen as a reactive hotfix before the pros and community at large can figure out the actual issue. Idra has said that by the time the reaper fix came in, zerg were pretty much able to deal with the issue. Reapers now untouched vs zerg. MVP mass sniped zerg in some single digit amount of games and it got nerfed. Ghosts now rarely seen. Thorzain beat immortals with strike canon and it got nerfed. No-one even remembers strike canons now. They probably have sat on this one too long, but honestly people have confused a lot of the complaints. Only 2 months ago people were blaming queens for the matchup, but now the complaints are about infestors. I don't think queens are the issue at all, it got solved. The infestor issue has definitely been around far longer, but has only come to light thanks to a combination of recent balance changes, metagame shifts and more experience with the unit. Still, some people are on what could be read between the lines which is that they might not be as invested in WoL with HotS working towards release. In addition with the sheer amount of tournaments coming at the end of the year, they also may be concerned with making a patch which dramatically shifts metagame at this stage else you end up with those few WCS qualifiers everyone likes to quote. The question is not "Is Infestor an issue?" or "Does Blizzard even realise?" but "Will they patch WoL? And if so, will it still be some time away?"
Queens didn't get solved. It's the reason Terran cannot deny a third base or creep spread now, and the reason Zerg builds 30 million drones before they build any defensive units, besides queens. It altered how the game is played yes, but definitely for the worse. I don't know if I'd consider that solved.
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On November 08 2012 14:25 bittman wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:01 Xeris wrote: It's pretty insane that he posts this now.
"The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see. "
It's been overpowered for months. I know what will be overpowered next month... the infestor. The patch happened 3-4 months ago and Zerg is still stupidly strong. A spellcaster shouldn't be as versatile as the infestor is where your army composition is 50% of one spellcaster. I think the issue is that Blizzard have noted that they've not sat on certain strategies long enough and applied what can only be seen as a reactive hotfix before the pros and community at large can figure out the actual issue. Idra has said that by the time the reaper fix came in, zerg were pretty much able to deal with the issue. Reapers now untouched vs zerg. MVP mass sniped zerg in some single digit amount of games and it got nerfed. Ghosts now rarely seen. Thorzain beat immortals with strike canon and it got nerfed. No-one even remembers strike canons now. They probably have sat on this one too long, but honestly people have confused a lot of the complaints. Only 2 months ago people were blaming queens for the matchup, but now the complaints are about infestors. I don't think queens are the issue at all, it got solved. The infestor issue has definitely been around far longer, but has only come to light thanks to a combination of recent balance changes, metagame shifts and more experience with the unit. Still, some people are on what could be read between the lines which is that they might not be as invested in WoL with HotS working towards release. In addition with the sheer amount of tournaments coming at the end of the year, they also may be concerned with making a patch which dramatically shifts metagame at this stage else you end up with those few WCS qualifiers everyone likes to quote. The question is not "Is Infestor an issue?" or "Does Blizzard even realise?" but "Will they patch WoL? And if so, will it still be some time away?"
I pretty much agree with this. I feel Blizz will patch infestors, probably early December. Their comments feel like they are buying time to do some internal testing on what the best solution is without breaking endgame zerg.
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To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal. "Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me...
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I can definitely see why they're not in a hurry to change it. The reaper was only really present in TvZ, and saw no real use in early game TvP. TvT still has reapers a bit. Ghost snipe nerf was only a thing in TvZ; it saw use in TvT but it was only a few allins, and in TvP the +psionic meant it wasn't an issue.
Changing the infestor will change all 3 zerg matchups however you try to do it. Ghost/reaper only significantly changed 1. ZvP and ZvT both very commonly revolve around infestor based midgames, and lategame zerg pretty much always involves infestors. ZvZ will also be affected, and the matchup is already kind of volatile even with the stability of "everyone gets infestors at some point"
I don't know... I think I'd like to see the infestor changed and fungal changed to a snare but it'll be such a significant change to all the matchups with an expansion on the horizon. I don't really mind whether they change it or not in WoL, but I'd certainly like to see a change in HotS whatever happens.
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From a zerg perspective, I really dislike the fact that infestor prevents micro from your opponent. I know this is not necessarily a balance thread but my point is even from a zerg point, I think the infestor (fungal) is not a good unit / spell by the way it works.
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Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter) Roaches are average without Infestor support. BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support. Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
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I dont get it -.-......it been like this for month though. To claim that they want to wait and see how it plays out is kinda silly to me. I think it been around near 4-6 month already that infestor were considered really powerful. I suppose waiting and seeing how it plays out is the safer thing to do
On November 08 2012 14:47 Mjolnir wrote:
Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter) Roaches are average without Infestor support. BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support. Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
I know people been seeing this alot but I dont believe it a justified answer. I mean if zerg are massing infestor because they HAVE too then that mean then it was fine for terran to mass ghost because they HAVE to too right? I mean technically they did HAVE too because as we can see, late game TvZ is not looking very promising after the ghost nerf. So to say that you HAVE too go mass infestor is the same as saying terran HAVE to go mass ghost too but that got nerf. So if mass ghost got nerf, then clearly mass infestor should be nerf too.
All I am saying is that if massing ghost is wrong, then massing infestor should also be wrong.
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There's so many way to deal vs infestor that I can't count them, why people always wants blizz to nerf X things because they aren't whilling to try new things. Metagame is people being stupid and silly and following pros builds instead of thinking of what they could actually make to counter it.
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Lol Mvp not trying to end the game...
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On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote: To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal. "Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp).
IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ...
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SC2 is a video game, the point isn't to be frustrated but to have fun. i.e. it's fun to try and chase infestors and templar with ghosts.... the point isn't to be unstoppable but to be stoppable. SC2 needs more video gameiness.
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all other zerg units are terrible, how can you not make a lot of infestors? do you want zergs to make a lot of mutas? hydras?
can't nerf infestors or they will have to compensate it drastically, like buffing all other units. better wait for HotS and see how it goes with the new units.
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On November 08 2012 14:38 SgtCoDFish wrote: I can definitely see why they're not in a hurry to change it. The reaper was only really present in TvZ, and saw no real use in early game TvP. TvT still has reapers a bit. Ghost snipe nerf was only a thing in TvZ; it saw use in TvT but it was only a few allins, and in TvP the +psionic meant it wasn't an issue.
Changing the infestor will change all 3 zerg matchups however you try to do it. Ghost/reaper only significantly changed 1. ZvP and ZvT both very commonly revolve around infestor based midgames, and lategame zerg pretty much always involves infestors. ZvZ will also be affected, and the matchup is already kind of volatile even with the stability of "everyone gets infestors at some point"
I don't know... I think I'd like to see the infestor changed and fungal changed to a snare but it'll be such a significant change to all the matchups with an expansion on the horizon. I don't really mind whether they change it or not in WoL, but I'd certainly like to see a change in HotS whatever happens.
That's the problem though... It's gotten to the point where the Infestor is the mainstay of the Zerg composition in EVERY MATCHUP. There's no situation where they are not advantageous and there's no reason to not make them every single game. They fill every role from AOE damage, snare, burst DPS, harassment, defense, is there anything else? I guess they can't fly or cliff walk, that's about it. Hell, if you care to research NP they can even mind control units...
The community has been crying over the Infestor for months now, about how it's a poorly designed unit. I thought Zerg was supposed to be the "reactionary" race. The Infestor is in complete opposition with that notion as it's the best all purpose unit in the game.
What we see here is Blizzard covering their asses. They know it's messed up but they don't have the time or resources to make the necessary changes, because as you noted, it would require a reevaluation of the entire game with respect to Zerg. From Blizzard's perspective, there's no reason to waste effort with drastic changes when you're already working on the next expansion. Basically, we are going to have to wait for HOTS to see if anything gets fixed.
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On November 08 2012 14:50 Bellazuk wrote: There's so many way to deal vs infestor that I can't count them, why people always wants blizz to nerf X things because they aren't whilling to try new things. Metagame is people being stupid and silly and following pros builds instead of thinking of what they could actually make to counter it.
Wise one, will you please share your profound insight with us?
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i interpreted that mess as a longer version of saying "infestor will be nerfed soon if zerg keeps winning."
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On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote: To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal. "Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ... Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move.
If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor.
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On November 08 2012 14:47 Mjolnir wrote:
Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter) Roaches are average without Infestor support. BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support. Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
"Support" is the key word in all of this, but infestor has not been a "support" unit for a while.
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They could start with basics...remove unit clumping in Hots.
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On November 08 2012 15:06 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote: To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal. "Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ... Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move. If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor. Basically this... The neural parasites range was 9....vs Terran - tanks range is 13,ghost sniper fire range is 10 and its counters infestor. vs Toss - Colossus range is 9,Carrier range starts from 8 and goes up to 14. vs Zerg - GGloords range is 9.5,and u cant use it on Ultras So u can snipe down the infestor pretty fast if u focus on it.
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Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them.
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Er.. I remember stephano maxing on broodlords with 20+ infestors at the beginning of the year..
It's been a very long time that they have been used like this.
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On November 08 2012 14:01 Xeris wrote: It's pretty insane that he posts this now.
"The Infestor has not changed in months and it is now appears over powered in some games. What will be overpowered next month? Maybe something new, maybe the Infestor. We are going to discuss it, watch games and see. "
It's been overpowered for months. I know what will be overpowered next month... the infestor. The patch happened 3-4 months ago and Zerg is still stupidly strong. A spellcaster shouldn't be as versatile as the infestor is where your army composition is 50% of one spellcaster.
Yet this is the first month where win-rate and results wise the game is actually favoring zerg. Ever since the patch happened the biggest tournaments have been at the most balanced state they have ever been until this GSL. Both of the big MLG championships had 6 5 5 race ratios in the ro16. The first MLG Arena was pretty zerg favored with top 3 being zerg but it was also within a week of the patch. The next one actually had very poor zerg representation and a TvP finals. Taeja won some other tournaments and MVP won IEM. The 2 GSLs in that time-frame were the most balanced GSLs ever both in win-rates and overall results. OSL had pretty good race ratios throughout. Zerg was actually the least represented. WCS Korea was ridiculously dominated by Protoss. WCG Korea was a TvP finals. TSL4 had a Protoss winner.
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On November 08 2012 15:40 Doodsmack wrote: Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them.
You realize you're talking about the same blizzard that didn't know motherships were used in pvz, right?
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On November 08 2012 15:06 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote: To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal. "Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ... Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move. If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor. Zerg can easily build a "screen" of free or dirt cheap units to block any ground unit from getting into range to kill the Infestor, so the immobility is only an issue if you are on the retreat. Otherwise they are pretty invulnerable at 9 range for Neural Parasite ... which is longer than any infantry and the siege units will be the ones targeted by Neural Parasite ... so none/very few of them will be in range.
It is a terrible spell, but the other two are worse.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 15:40 Doodsmack wrote: Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them. Way to characterise everyone posting on here, good job. While there are a lot of whiners too, there are also smarter and more erudite posters than I putting in some good feedback here.
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I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful.
On November 08 2012 14:47 Mjolnir wrote:
Zergs use Infestors every game because they have to. Zerg is boring as fuck and the devs totally dropped the ball on the race. I would bet that most Zergs would love to use more varied strats but they can't because they've been forced to rely on a few select units for every match up.
Banes suck without Infestor support (against a skilled enemy, they're awful against units they're meant to counter) Roaches are average without Infestor support. BLs are exposed and weak without Infestor support. Infestors counter muta, blink stalker, bio, hellion, drops, banshee, VR, etc. etc.
Zergs make them because they have to.
The devs shouldn't have been so fucking stubborn and just given Zergs the Lurker. There's your anti-infantry solution and it doesn't counter air, it doesn't lock down an army and deny micro, it doesn't spawn free units, it just does it's job. The same job that Banes were supposed to do (and fail at) and Infestors have now been employed and tweaked to do too well.
Yeah I totally agree. I think the fact that they also forced all the other zerg spells (neural parasite, infested terran) to suck also affects this. While fungal growth is good, it wouldn't be as noticeable or have "concretely proven/discovered" as being effective if zerg had more reliable alternatives (mutalisks often not being enough, and all other zerg spells suck).
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote: I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed.
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On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote: I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless).
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On November 08 2012 15:44 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:06 eviltomahawk wrote:On November 08 2012 14:52 Rabiator wrote:On November 08 2012 14:38 Zerg.Zilla wrote: To bad they fucked with the neural parasite range.Now infestor is just another boring unit in zergs arsenal. "Fungals,fungals everywhere!"But maybe it's jut me... Neural Parasite is a pretty overpowered spell and just as bad as Fungal, because you basically neutralize an enemy unit (usually something EXPENSIVE) completely and have it fight for you. There is no friggin counter for that and not even a "downside" to using the spell like the Mind Control spell from the Dark Archon had (losing ALL his shields and thus turning into a giant red target with 10 hp). IMO the Infestor should "latch onto the unit" it mind controls and damage dealt would be 50% to the unit and 50% to the infestor ... Well, the Infestor becomes a sitting duck for the duration of the spell and spawns a huge tentacle that tells the enemy exactly which Infestor is channeling the spell. Not to mention the limited range that the mind-controlled unit can move. If it weren't for Fungal, some units can easily run ahead and snipe the channeling Infestor. Zerg can easily build a "screen" of free or dirt cheap units to block any ground unit from getting into range to kill the Infestor, so the immobility is only an issue if you are on the retreat. Otherwise they are pretty invulnerable at 9 range for Neural Parasite ... which is longer than any infantry and the siege units will be the ones targeted by Neural Parasite ... so none/very few of them will be in range. It is a terrible spell, but the other two are worse. Maybe a nerf to range 8 would have been more reasonable than a nerf to range 7 so that at least Colossi have some room to avoid the spell without making the spell itself too useless. And alternatively, the opponent should also have a meat shield in front of their siege units to avoid such situations.
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4 easy steps to fix zerg... 1) Make infestors smaller so that emp, and other aoe effects are more devasting when clumped up. 2) Nerf I.T range or dps OR Fungal to slow effect 60%, but not both. 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply 4) Buff other zerg unit(s) to retain balance, but less reliance on infestor. Emphasis on Hydra, corruptor.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote: I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless). I actually quite like IT, the playerbase has found a lot of interesting ways to use it, like tanking that initial volley of tank fire, or harassing expansions and stuff. When infestor play was being figured out most people, including myself thought these were pretty cool, innovative way to use the unit, it's just that as the use of it has become more refined everybody is getting sick to death of the things.
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On November 08 2012 15:40 Doodsmack wrote: Call me crazy but I trust Blizzard professionals more than random raging forum posters. The 2.5 years of balance whine on record from the community is proof positive that the vast majority of community balance "feedback" is not to be taken seriously. Sorry folks, Blizzard has more info available to them than you, and you're not smarter than them. Just because the game SEEMS TO WORK doesnt mean it couldnt be better. Just think about the DENSITY in which you can have your infantry units and then compare that to the same density in BW and put it into comparison with AoE units like the Reaver and Siege Tank. You will see a drastic change. If you think about the math then you will notice that the drastically increased dps of the infantry clumps makes it necessary to balance unit numbers much more precisely than it was necessary in BW. Since maps have always an influence on the balance/viability of units this seems to be a bad thing AND a concentrated/maximized dps for ground units will make any big units (capital ships, siege units, Thor, Immortal, ...) rather less durable than they should be.
The influence of maps doesnt really end there, because all three races have gotten production speed boosts which kick in at different times, so they are disadvantaged at any other time (usually before that timing for your own race). Is this a wise thing to have? If you think so I would really like an explanation why, because to me it is stupid, because it makes small maps like Steppes of War terrible for Zerg and gigantic maps terrible for any non-Zerg.
The clumped up infantry units make defensive structures worthless, because their concentrated and maximized firepower kills those structures much too fast. This limits defensive and positional play and that is terrible.
Sooo ... if you think there is anything wrong with these arguments as to why Blizzard is doing a terrible job at balancing the game then please explain the reasoning to me. Its not about turning SC2 into BW, but there are several bad things which the older game did NOT suffer from and several limitations for the newer game which are caused by "newer technology" and "better stuff" (like unlimited unit selection and tight formations).
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On November 08 2012 16:06 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote: I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless). I actually quite like IT, the playerbase has found a lot of interesting ways to use it, like tanking that initial volley of tank fire, or harassing expansions and stuff. When infestor play was being figured out most people, including myself thought these were pretty cool, innovative way to use the unit, it's just that as the use of it has become more refined everybody is getting sick to death of the things. I still think that stuff is cool, but it use to be a few infestors on the field and 2 or 3 IT were used to soak a few tank volleys (which is awesome). Now it is toss 80 IT out with zero thought on placement to soak tank shots, and kill everything, which is really boring.
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On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote: I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless). Infested Terran would be an acceptable spell if these units couldnt be stacked as much as they can. Just compare them to the autoturret and you will see that the infested terran costs only half the energy and can be placed in a much higher density with a much higher "troop dps" compared to the turret. That is more important than the longer duration of the turret and its individually higher dps; in the end the infested Terrans deal more damage and last long enough for a battle.
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On November 08 2012 16:05 Incomplet wrote: 4 easy steps to fix zerg... 1) Make infestors smaller so that emp, and other aoe effects are more devasting when clumped up. 2) Nerf I.T range or dps OR Fungal to slow effect 60%, but not both. 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply 4) Buff other zerg unit(s) to retain balance, but less reliance on infestor. Emphasis on Hydra, corruptor.
Now you are just nerving things in the ground.
And i am intrested in buff other zerg units ? like What ? It's all going to melt to AOE units. (you would need to redesign Zerg as a race, things like this can not be done by a "simple" patch)
Your point 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply, is more then fine. Less infestors and they do exactly what they were ment to do.
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Don't have much to say except that I hope they start balancing around what is fun to watch, rather than just what makes a matchup imbalanced ;/
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Just saw the GOMTV HOTS last match, as gisado destroyed whole p army just whit couple (about 15) infestors. Combined whit lings and 3-4 broodlords the protoss couldnt engage while he should have, because chain fungal would have just killed him even that he had few colossi and moderate amount of stalkers. At least not the absolute HIGHEST level of play, infestor seems like that it can come out on top in most of the situations and are more forgiving.
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I can make a balanced game in seconds where there's a counter that goes up over time that allows you to buy dots that can fight each other with the same exact stats, it's balanced but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch. Why is the argument that it's balanced mean that it's okay for the game to be boring for spectators? No caster should be able to be massed, not infestors, not ghosts, not hts. Honestly infestors at this point are worse than ghosts or khaydarin amulet ever were. At least it was fun to watch ManZenith owning people.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 16:26 Sepi wrote: Just saw the GOMTV HOTS last match, as gisado destroyed whole p army just whit couple (about 15) infestors. Combined whit lings and 3-4 broodlords the protoss couldnt engage while he should have, because chain fungal would have just killed him even that he had few colossi and moderate amount of stalkers. At least not the absolute HIGHEST level of play, infestor seems like that it can come out on top in most of the situations and are more forgiving. I think FBH had his play wonky. I'd imagine that PvZ in HoTS, it would be better to play standard as we see now, maybe with Stargate for Oracles/ Phoenix, into establishing a third and getting a good Stalker/Collosus ball, THEN add the tempest.
FBH added the tempest far earlier than seems optimal, at least from an outside looking in.
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On November 08 2012 16:25 Lysanias wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:05 Incomplet wrote: 4 easy steps to fix zerg... 1) Make infestors smaller so that emp, and other aoe effects are more devasting when clumped up. 2) Nerf I.T range or dps OR Fungal to slow effect 60%, but not both. 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply 4) Buff other zerg unit(s) to retain balance, but less reliance on infestor. Emphasis on Hydra, corruptor. Now you are just nerving things in the ground. And i am intrested in buff other zerg units ? like What ? It's all going to melt to AOE units. (you would need to redesign Zerg as a race, things like this can not be done by a "simple" patch) Your point 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply, is more then fine. Less infestors and they do exactly what they were ment to do.
When bargaining, you drop it down by more than you're willing to pay to get a happy medium. ie: something costs $20, drop it down to $10, settle on $15
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On November 08 2012 16:33 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:26 Sepi wrote: Just saw the GOMTV HOTS last match, as gisado destroyed whole p army just whit couple (about 15) infestors. Combined whit lings and 3-4 broodlords the protoss couldnt engage while he should have, because chain fungal would have just killed him even that he had few colossi and moderate amount of stalkers. At least not the absolute HIGHEST level of play, infestor seems like that it can come out on top in most of the situations and are more forgiving. I think FBH had his play wonky. I'd imagine that PvZ in HoTS, it would be better to play standard as we see now, maybe with Stargate for Oracles/ Phoenix, into establishing a third and getting a good Stalker/Collosus ball, THEN add the tempest. FBH added the tempest far earlier than seems optimal, at least from an outside looking in.
Maybe, just saw the conclusion as i tuned in literally 15s before the first engagement.
That was the only part i saw, but still throwed it out.
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I agree with the sentiment that you can't change it until you look at other options that you can give Zerg. Like it or not, but infestors have become part of the go-to tactic, so you need to give Zerg other options... Which also need to be looked at before quickly changing anything.
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On November 08 2012 16:32 RainMore wrote: I can make a balanced game in seconds where there's a counter that goes up over time that allows you to buy dots that can fight each other with the same exact stats, it's balanced but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch. Why is the argument that it's balanced mean that it's okay for the game to be boring for spectators? No caster should be able to be massed, not infestors, not ghosts, not hts. Honestly infestors at this point are worse than ghosts or khaydarin amulet ever were. At least it was fun to watch ManZenith owning people. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that casters should not be massed. No caster should ever be anything but a support unit, or the game goes seriously out of whack. If a caster is massable, then it will ALWAYS turn into a completely homogenized fighting force. Look at 8-damage Sentries: people were starting to mess around with mass Sentry before the nerf. Would have been boring and homogenous (although you'd need Immortals to deal with Siege Tanks). Look at TvZ Ghosts: lategame was just "can I mass enough Ghosts?" Boring as anything. Now the Infestors are doing the same thing. In Broodwar, we had no massable casters. High Templar are WAY too slow and weak (just like in SC2; the Khaydarin nerf wasn't to stop them from massing). Science Vessels can't actually damage buildings, have zero defense against Scourge, and can't kill things in the other matchups. Defilers, arguably the best casters in the game, can't actually kill anything but some Terran buildings. All the other casters are just plain bad (in most circumstances, no need to point out the utility of Queens in ZvT). This is good for the game. The Infestor, on the other hand, has powerful zone control and powerful stacking DPS against everything. One Infestor is kinda meh, but they never start getting bad no matter how many you add on. That's a real problem, and something that Blizzard needs to address. Right now, it doesn't matter how many Ghosts or High Templar you introduce. The solution will always be more Infestors. They feedback 10 of your Infestors? Solution to that is having 10 more, not to phase out Infestors entirely. Unless this core problem is fixed, the Infestor issue will never go away.
This ultimately isn't a balance issue. It's a design issue.
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I actually like to watch charges lead by dropping infested terrans, or ingested terrans as harrasment. I lso like the micro that fungal forces out of the terran (pre-splitting marines). An NP on a mothership however is boring when it immediatl ends the game. What about if we go back to the original NP nerv of NP range 9, no massive, but also make it free of research. And why is everybody focusing on the infestor part of the BL/Iinf combo. Maybe lowerng the rang of the BL from 9.5 to 9 and slightly decreasing the initial damage would help. In order to counter infestor the range of feedback and emp could be increased by 1. But then please als nerv archon toilet either by decreasing vortex size or increasing invunurability time after beeing cortexed. NP on mothership and archon toilet are the most boring was to watch a game end. And I am mainly interessted in watching this game.
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On November 08 2012 17:03 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:32 RainMore wrote: I can make a balanced game in seconds where there's a counter that goes up over time that allows you to buy dots that can fight each other with the same exact stats, it's balanced but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch. Why is the argument that it's balanced mean that it's okay for the game to be boring for spectators? No caster should be able to be massed, not infestors, not ghosts, not hts. Honestly infestors at this point are worse than ghosts or khaydarin amulet ever were. At least it was fun to watch ManZenith owning people. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that casters should not be massed. No caster should ever be anything but a support unit, or the game goes seriously out of whack. If a caster is massable, then it will ALWAYS turn into a completely homogenized fighting force. Look at 8-damage Sentries: people were starting to mess around with mass Sentry before the nerf. Would have been boring and homogenous (although you'd need Immortals to deal with Siege Tanks). Look at TvZ Ghosts: lategame was just "can I mass enough Ghosts?" Boring as anything. Now the Infestors are doing the same thing. In Broodwar, we had no massable casters. High Templar are WAY too slow and weak (just like in SC2; the Khaydarin nerf wasn't to stop them from massing). Science Vessels can't actually damage buildings, have zero defense against Scourge, and can't kill things in the other matchups. Defilers, arguably the best casters in the game, can't actually kill anything but some Terran buildings. All the other casters are just plain bad (in most circumstances, no need to point out the utility of Queens in ZvT). This is good for the game. The Infestor, on the other hand, has powerful zone control and powerful stacking DPS against everything. One Infestor is kinda meh, but they never start getting bad no matter how many you add on. That's a real problem, and something that Blizzard needs to address. Right now, it doesn't matter how many Ghosts or High Templar you introduce. The solution will always be more Infestors. They feedback 10 of your Infestors? Solution to that is having 10 more, not to phase out Infestors entirely. Unless this core problem is fixed, the Infestor issue will never go away. This ultimately isn't a balance issue. It's a design issue.
very good post.
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On November 08 2012 16:14 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote: I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless). Infested Terran would be an acceptable spell if these units couldnt be stacked as much as they can. Just compare them to the autoturret and you will see that the infested terran costs only half the energy and can be placed in a much higher density with a much higher "troop dps" compared to the turret. That is more important than the longer duration of the turret and its individually higher dps; in the end the infested Terrans deal more damage and last long enough for a battle. auto-turret has 3 times more health, an extra base armor, 1-2 extra range, spawns instantly, and lasts long enough to be a huge pain as well as re-useable for multiple engagements. Infested terrans are inferior to auto-turrets in various ways. While they have a great advantage of being denser and placeable anywhere on the ground, they have a huge warning time before deploying and a very limited duration. Because of this, a defender does not always have to deal with the infested terrans directly — they can just run the necessary things away (command center, SCVs, army) and be done with it. With a range of only 5 and slow movement speed, infested terrans aren't particularly useful as combat units due to taking pot shots before being able to deal any damage to ranged units; they're pretty much only useful in combat against zealot compositions without colossus or storm (unlikely), or zerg units. That said, I'm not saying Auto-turret is a great ability either, but I think it's much more appropriate the way it's implemented — zerg doesn't need any more cannon fodder, they already have broodlings and zerglings (and roaches). The fact that they can be compacted just makes them even weaker against psionic storms, colossus, planetary fortresses, hellions, and siege tanks.
Ravens and infestors both have the problem where you have caster units that can essentially be used solo as ultimate counter-all units, and in both cases it's due to their spawn-unit abilities; this sort of mechanic is dangerous to implement in a game because it doesn't take much skill to do, and in situations like SC2 can cause casters to be potentially too strong/multi-purpose.
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On November 08 2012 16:34 Incomplet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:25 Lysanias wrote:On November 08 2012 16:05 Incomplet wrote: 4 easy steps to fix zerg... 1) Make infestors smaller so that emp, and other aoe effects are more devasting when clumped up. 2) Nerf I.T range or dps OR Fungal to slow effect 60%, but not both. 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply 4) Buff other zerg unit(s) to retain balance, but less reliance on infestor. Emphasis on Hydra, corruptor. Now you are just nerving things in the ground. And i am intrested in buff other zerg units ? like What ? It's all going to melt to AOE units. (you would need to redesign Zerg as a race, things like this can not be done by a "simple" patch) Your point 3) Make Infestor cost 3 supply, is more then fine. Less infestors and they do exactly what they were ment to do. When bargaining, you drop it down by more than you're willing to pay to get a happy medium. ie: something costs $20, drop it down to $10, settle on $15
Except you drop it down to $2.50 but fair enough.
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what a joke that they did so many knee-jerk reaction nerfs to blue flame and snipe, yet want to keep waiting. where were the test maps for those :[
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Good job that Blizzard are going to wait and see with regard to the Infestor.
Nice work, Rock, and the right way to go about it.
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On November 08 2012 17:09 FinestHour wrote: what a joke that they did so many knee-jerk reaction nerfs to blue flame and snipe, yet want to keep waiting. where were the test maps for those :[ No. For one thing win rates was not as balanced back then as now, and secondly scenarios aren't always the same. With ghosts it was evident that there was no solid way for zerg to counter them due to their high range and high damage against all zerg units. Infestor had numerous rather quick tweaks with regards to both fungal growth and neural parasite; some of them were in the beta.
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its a delay tactic. No balancing before hots is released i guess. We might even have a unbalanced vanilla for ever. But who really cares once HOTS is out?
Think about it: They are currently working to balance Hots out: the tempest is designed to weaken the dominance of infestor broodlord in zvp, thus any infestor nerf has to be corresponding to the new army composition of Z and P. Mind you im talking about the role Blizzard has in mind for the Tempest, not necessarily its actual state. So Hots ultimately has different demands in terms of balancing regarding the infestor than Wol. Now, do you think it is likely that blizzard will nerf the Infestor in WoL in order to buff it right back up in Hots? My take is, Blizzard is pretty aware of the infestor issue but will not act about it until Hots is out. It means to much trouble for them and the community would regard it as flippy and shortsided.
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This is all nice and dandy if they reverse the Thor and Ghost nerfs, admitting they were wrong and unnecessary. But they won't...
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On November 08 2012 17:18 Scila wrote: This is all nice and dandy if they reverse the Thor and Ghost nerfs, admitting they were wrong and unnecessary. But they won't...
Reversing the thor nerf, no. 250mm strike cannon is a dumb ability that is near impossible to balance and i'd rather they remove it completely then return it to the way it was. The ghost nerf was justified, i just don't like the way in which they did it.
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On November 08 2012 17:15 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 17:09 FinestHour wrote: what a joke that they did so many knee-jerk reaction nerfs to blue flame and snipe, yet want to keep waiting. where were the test maps for those :[ No. For one thing win rates was not as balanced back then as now, and secondly scenarios aren't always the same. With ghosts it was evident that there was no solid way for zerg to counter them due to their high range and high damage against all zerg units. Infestor had numerous rather quick tweaks with regards to both fungal growth and neural parasite; some of them were in the beta.
Just because terran wins half the time by early-mid game, and zerg wins in late game, and the win ratio in the match up is close to 50/50, it doesn't mean its balanced. Every race should have an equal chance to win or lose at any point in any matchup. Also, the Ghost snipe nerf was completely unwarranted. Ghosts were incredibly expensive, and took a ton of micro to actually use correctly. If anything it was balanced in late game with pre-nerf snipe, and Terran still needed to micro more than Zerg. Do you even know how many clicks it took to use snipe effectively? While at the same time avoiding getting all your ghosts from getting chain fungaled, and controlling the rest of your army at the same time?
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i can hear terrans crying. lololol
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 08 2012 17:08 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:14 Rabiator wrote:On November 08 2012 15:54 Xapti wrote:On November 08 2012 15:48 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 15:45 Xapti wrote: I don't like the infested terran ability or the way neural parasite currently works (nearly useless and impractical except in niche situations at top masters to professional level)
I would probably accept a toning down of fungal growth if they actually made the other abilities cooler and/or more useful. Infested Terran is extremely useful, both for tanking damage vs tanks in vT, and for anti-air/sniping Nexi in vP. I actually don't mind the idea of it, it just appears a bit too catch-all atm. Neural is fine as it is for me, if it had the old range it would counter far too many options, although it does make for some sweet play agreed. I wouldn't say it's extremely useful, but even if it was, that doesn't mean it's a good ability for the game to have. I also did not say it wasn't useful, I was only attributing the uselessness comment to neural parasite. For IT, I just hate the mechanics — it's a stupid no-micro mechanic that doesn't do much except make hydralisks even more useless. It has a ridiculously huge warning time, weak units, and are destroyable before they even hatch (although I'm still not saying that they're useless). Infested Terran would be an acceptable spell if these units couldnt be stacked as much as they can. Just compare them to the autoturret and you will see that the infested terran costs only half the energy and can be placed in a much higher density with a much higher "troop dps" compared to the turret. That is more important than the longer duration of the turret and its individually higher dps; in the end the infested Terrans deal more damage and last long enough for a battle. auto-turret has 3 times more health, an extra base armor, 1-2 extra range, spawns instantly, and lasts long enough to be a huge pain as well as re-useable for multiple engagements. Infested terrans are inferior to auto-turrets in various ways. While they have a great advantage of being denser and placeable anywhere on the ground, they have a huge warning time before deploying and a very limited duration. Because of this, a defender does not always have to deal with the infested terrans directly — they can just run the necessary things away (command center, SCVs, army) and be done with it. With a range of only 5 and slow movement speed, infested terrans aren't particularly useful as combat units due to taking pot shots before being able to deal any damage to ranged units; they're pretty much only useful in combat against zealot compositions without colossus or storm (unlikely), or zerg units. That said, I'm not saying Auto-turret is a great ability either, but I think it's much more appropriate the way it's implemented — zerg doesn't need any more cannon fodder, they already have broodlings and zerglings (and roaches). The fact that they can be compacted just makes them even weaker against psionic storms, colossus, planetary fortresses, hellions, and siege tanks. Infested Terran is simply awesome to tear down undefended buildings and when you are able to suppress your opponents army with Fungal Growth and/or Banelings. If the opponent targets the Banelings he loses to the "opened eggs" of the infested Terrans and if he kills the eggs then the Banelings wipe him. Its simply too much "swarm" with half of it costing neither minerals nor gas when any AoE attack abilities have been nerfed to pretty bad damage output.
Autoturret suffers from the weakness of the unit itself when faced by a concentrated firepower of a clump of tightly grouped opposing infantry[*] AND from the low range of 3 to cast it which endangers the Raven much more than the range of 9 (plus possible burrow) for the infested terran.
[*] This is a problem for any defensive structures which are not supported by an army.
On November 08 2012 17:24 bailando wrote: i can hear terrans crying. lololol I can see trolls trolling (posting without adding to the discussion or even to try and argue).
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On November 08 2012 17:15 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 17:09 FinestHour wrote: what a joke that they did so many knee-jerk reaction nerfs to blue flame and snipe, yet want to keep waiting. where were the test maps for those :[ No. For one thing win rates was not as balanced back then as now, and secondly scenarios aren't always the same. With ghosts it was evident that there was no solid way for zerg to counter them due to their high range and high damage against all zerg units. Infestor had numerous rather quick tweaks with regards to both fungal growth and neural parasite; some of them were in the beta.
How was it 'evident' when they weren't really in play for more than 1 month before they were nerfed. Zergs never had the time to innovate!!!
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Fungal is AOE stun for 4s. its horrible thing to have in PvP game.
How can't they understand that?
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The thing that is completly devestating about fungal, is the fact that you get movementlocked. You can dodge storms, you can dodge EMP's but you cant dodge Fungal. So the conclusion is, Bio melts away and Protoss Units, besides Colossi w/ range are doomed and can't do anything about it, besides waiting for their death. Also Infested Terrans dps is insane and add so much fire power to a fight, which can give zerg, depending on which state of the game, 150+ food worth of army supply while still having 60+drones.
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On November 08 2012 17:03 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 16:32 RainMore wrote: I can make a balanced game in seconds where there's a counter that goes up over time that allows you to buy dots that can fight each other with the same exact stats, it's balanced but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch. Why is the argument that it's balanced mean that it's okay for the game to be boring for spectators? No caster should be able to be massed, not infestors, not ghosts, not hts. Honestly infestors at this point are worse than ghosts or khaydarin amulet ever were. At least it was fun to watch ManZenith owning people. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that casters should not be massed. No caster should ever be anything but a support unit, or the game goes seriously out of whack. If a caster is massable, then it will ALWAYS turn into a completely homogenized fighting force. Look at 8-damage Sentries: people were starting to mess around with mass Sentry before the nerf. Would have been boring and homogenous (although you'd need Immortals to deal with Siege Tanks). Look at TvZ Ghosts: lategame was just "can I mass enough Ghosts?" Boring as anything. Now the Infestors are doing the same thing. In Broodwar, we had no massable casters. High Templar are WAY too slow and weak (just like in SC2; the Khaydarin nerf wasn't to stop them from massing). Science Vessels can't actually damage buildings, have zero defense against Scourge, and can't kill things in the other matchups. Defilers, arguably the best casters in the game, can't actually kill anything but some Terran buildings. All the other casters are just plain bad (in most circumstances, no need to point out the utility of Queens in ZvT). This is good for the game. The Infestor, on the other hand, has powerful zone control and powerful stacking DPS against everything. One Infestor is kinda meh, but they never start getting bad no matter how many you add on. That's a real problem, and something that Blizzard needs to address. Right now, it doesn't matter how many Ghosts or High Templar you introduce. The solution will always be more Infestors. They feedback 10 of your Infestors? Solution to that is having 10 more, not to phase out Infestors entirely. Unless this core problem is fixed, the Infestor issue will never go away. This ultimately isn't a balance issue. It's a design issue. Yeah except it cant be fixed unless you weaken infesters dramatically, to the point where the unit is entirely redesigned [which means a rebalancing of every single zerg unit] or its simply abandoned, which would also necessitate total redesign.
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It would be cool if instead of nerfing them/taking away from Zerg if Protoss and Terran had some way of dispelling large numbers of infested terran/fungal growth. If High templar could do a small AOE dispell and maybe if ghosts EMP did something similar i think it would add an interesting dynamic to the game because as much as i don't like Infestors zerg would be pretty fucked without them
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Good work, Dustin. I thought some other balance patches were a bit pre-emptive, this seems to be the right attitude.
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On November 08 2012 17:38 iAmBiGbiRd wrote: It would be cool if instead of nerfing them/taking away from Zerg if Protoss and Terran had some way of dispelling large numbers of infested terran/fungal growth. If High templar could do a small AOE dispell and maybe if ghosts EMP did something similar i think it would add an interesting dynamic to the game because as much as i don't like Infestors zerg would be pretty fucked without them The problem with such a concept is that the unit who casts the dispel needs to be as viable and efficient as the Infestor with its three very very flexible spells, because you would be disadvantaging Protoss and Terrans. Zerg should have such counterspells too, because otherwise you are locked into "both sides need to go Infestor" tactics. Counterspells seem more in line of WoW than Starcraft and I think most people agree that "hard counters" are a terrible concepts. A "dispel" is exactly that ... a hard counter.
So it seems to be a better choice to nerf the Infestor spells ... unless Blizzard gets wise and changes the general movement mechanics (=> too high infnatry unit density) which cause a lot of problems.
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On November 08 2012 17:26 Rabiator wrote: Infested Terran is simply awesome to tear down undefended buildings and when you are able to suppress your opponents army with Fungal Growth and/or Banelings.
Autoturret suffers from the weakness of the unit itself when faced by a concentrated firepower of a clump of tightly grouped opposing infantry[*] AND from the low range of 3 to cast it which endangers the Raven much more than the range of 9 (plus possible burrow) for the infested terran.
[*] This is a problem for any defensive structures which are not supported by an army.
Yea I know. It's as if people aren't reading my post. I did not say infested terrans are useless! I said they are a bad mechanic, and I think they're personally stupid.
With regards to auto-turret, it's casting range is 6, not 3, and ravens can FLY, making them far safer from attack in the right terrain positions. Auto-turrets excel at harassment (like worker harass— something infested terrans are poor at, at least at higher skill levels) or on-demand anti-air. Neither infested terrans nor auto-turrets are units one can expect to be strong against large ground armies such as with colossus, high templar, siege tank, hellion, marauder, or immortal in particular.
I'm mostly saying the mechanic is bad, and hence the ability sucky for at least that reason, but also due to the fact it's unnecessary (meat shields which deal major damage are already roles taken by roach, zergling, and broodling; anti-air is already taken by hydralisks, which do need to be buffed though), and sucky for that reason too.
On November 08 2012 17:33 vthree wrote: How was it 'evident' when they weren't really in play for more than 1 month before they were nerfed. Zergs never had the time to innovate!!!
The exclamation points almost made it seem like sarcasm, but I'm thinking it isn't. When one understand the game adequately one can look logically at the situation and see that no zerg unit can counter mass ghosts with snipe. The closest thing one gets to is mass baneling-zergling , but they don't fare well due to ghosts' extra damage vs light, somewhat high health and range, as well as the fact that ghosts can be paired with siege tanks, planetary fortresses, or hellions.
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On November 08 2012 17:57 Xapti wrote: With regards to auto-turret, it's casting range is 6, not 3, and ravens can FLY, making them far safer from attack in the right terrain positions. Hmmm ... looks like the Liquipedia entry on the turret is wrong then.
Flying still doesnt cloak the Raven and Fungal still works against Ravens and anti-air flyers are all faster than the Raven plus Feedback/Fungal have a much longer range than autoturret. So personally I consider flying as less of an advantage than the longer range of the Infestor abilities.
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Glad to see they're looking at it, and glad they are finally using this approach.
If only they had treated the Siege Tank the way they are now treating the Infestor.... if only.
Poor Siege Tanks.
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Browder gets it. How many times are we going to see a strategy come out that is instantly cried about by the community, only for the community to find a way to defeat it. sometimes it takes longer then others. it wasn't so long ago that 1/1/1 was thought to be nearly unbeatable..
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On November 08 2012 18:19 Destro wrote: Browder gets it. How many times are we going to see a strategy come out that is instantly cried about by the community, only for the community to find a way to defeat it. sometimes it takes longer then others. it wasn't so long ago that 1/1/1 was thought to be nearly unbeatable..
They patched immortals and barracks build time.
Only then was the 1/1/1 deemed beatable.
People seem to love quoting the 1/1/1 when talking about current balance problems conveniently forgetting that Blizzard actually DID patch the game specifically because of that strategy.
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On November 08 2012 18:20 Vindicare605 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 18:19 Destro wrote: Browder gets it. How many times are we going to see a strategy come out that is instantly cried about by the community, only for the community to find a way to defeat it. sometimes it takes longer then others. it wasn't so long ago that 1/1/1 was thought to be nearly unbeatable.. They patched immortals and barracks build time. Only then was the 1/1/1 deemed beatable. People seem to love quoting the 1/1/1 when talking about current balance problems conveniently forgetting that Blizzard actually DID patch the game specifically because of that strategy.
Incorrect, arguably the Immortal buff was premature as Protoss were already in the process of fine tuning a defense. The advent of larger maps also helped. Ironically, as often happens, unintended consequences meant that the Immortal buff had and has a greater impact in PvZ than in PvT. Furthermore, the 1-1-1 still remains very strong, especially on smaller maps.
(It would be nice to have Immortals at 5 range, so that Protoss have to set up engagements and micro better with Immortals.)
I can't remember any details of barrack build time with that patch, sorry. So, I can't comment on that point.
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11/11 rax, not waited for "people to figure it out" Thors without energy, not waited for "people to figure it out" Mass ghosts in late-game TvZ, not waited for "people to figure it out" 1-1-1 not waited for "people to figure it out"
The community knows when something is OP DB... Common dude : /
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Blizzard unit design is.. lol they have no clue how they want the game as a whole. it feels like a kid bullshiting an essay during an english test, who only skimmed the wiki summary of the book the night before. like what roll does infestor play? it cast an unbreakable AOE CC that does considerable damage to all unit types along with another skill to spawn a buffed DPS version of a marine. please tell me what Roll does that play? what micro is needed?
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On November 08 2012 09:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote: I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff. nice observation, i hated seeing pro zergs just use 1 control group for their whole army, so that their infestors walk into the fight and sit there doing nothing <_> (who remembers Losira vs sC on Terminus haha) Oh, you mean Life in MLG a couple of his games? Luckily he could still win his games where he didn't lose 10 infestors instantly.
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I would support this if it wasn't that infestor has been on this uprise for more than 6 months. >_>
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wow, now they are seeing what others are seeing? because im pretty sure I saw how bullshit the infestor was one month after Z was given a free pass to the late game in ZvT and after they figured that mass infestors+BL with turtling can win them pretty much every ZvP, which was a whiiiiile ago
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On November 08 2012 18:47 imPermanenCe wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote: I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff. nice observation, i hated seeing pro zergs just use 1 control group for their whole army, so that their infestors walk into the fight and sit there doing nothing <_> (who remembers Losira vs sC on Terminus haha) Oh, you mean Life in MLG a couple of his games? Luckily he could still win his games where he didn't lose 10 infestors instantly. and win even if he does.
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I find it weird+bad that blizzard randomly does what conveniences them, rather than having a stable way to balance (either OMGPATCH things asap, _OR_ wait it out)
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On November 08 2012 19:00 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 18:47 imPermanenCe wrote:On November 08 2012 09:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote: I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff. nice observation, i hated seeing pro zergs just use 1 control group for their whole army, so that their infestors walk into the fight and sit there doing nothing <_> (who remembers Losira vs sC on Terminus haha) Oh, you mean Life in MLG a couple of his games? Luckily he could still win his games where he didn't lose 10 infestors instantly. and win even if he does. ------------------------ I find it weird+bad that blizzard randomly does what conveniences them, rather than having a stable way to balance (either OMGPATCH things asap, _OR_ wait it out)
Meh, i prefer them finding a way that actually works and makes sense then sticking with the old way that has proven to be terrible ;o
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On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game.
exactly this^. Casters play a huge role in sc2, more than just a support unit, dont hate on the infestor, hate on casters.
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Jakkerr wrote: took them a while Blizzard continuously alludes to their balancing methods. One must conclude that Blizzard expected the cries of "Infestor imba!" to die out. But since the cries didn't die out, here they are reminding everyone how they balance their game. Balance is the one thing I always expect Blizzard to be capable of attaining.
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I'm reading the old thread for the patch 1.3 PTR, and my how things have changed since then.
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On November 08 2012 17:38 whatevername wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 17:03 Acritter wrote:On November 08 2012 16:32 RainMore wrote: I can make a balanced game in seconds where there's a counter that goes up over time that allows you to buy dots that can fight each other with the same exact stats, it's balanced but it sure as hell isn't fun to watch. Why is the argument that it's balanced mean that it's okay for the game to be boring for spectators? No caster should be able to be massed, not infestors, not ghosts, not hts. Honestly infestors at this point are worse than ghosts or khaydarin amulet ever were. At least it was fun to watch ManZenith owning people. I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiment that casters should not be massed. No caster should ever be anything but a support unit, or the game goes seriously out of whack. If a caster is massable, then it will ALWAYS turn into a completely homogenized fighting force. Look at 8-damage Sentries: people were starting to mess around with mass Sentry before the nerf. Would have been boring and homogenous (although you'd need Immortals to deal with Siege Tanks). Look at TvZ Ghosts: lategame was just "can I mass enough Ghosts?" Boring as anything. Now the Infestors are doing the same thing. In Broodwar, we had no massable casters. High Templar are WAY too slow and weak (just like in SC2; the Khaydarin nerf wasn't to stop them from massing). Science Vessels can't actually damage buildings, have zero defense against Scourge, and can't kill things in the other matchups. Defilers, arguably the best casters in the game, can't actually kill anything but some Terran buildings. All the other casters are just plain bad (in most circumstances, no need to point out the utility of Queens in ZvT). This is good for the game. The Infestor, on the other hand, has powerful zone control and powerful stacking DPS against everything. One Infestor is kinda meh, but they never start getting bad no matter how many you add on. That's a real problem, and something that Blizzard needs to address. Right now, it doesn't matter how many Ghosts or High Templar you introduce. The solution will always be more Infestors. They feedback 10 of your Infestors? Solution to that is having 10 more, not to phase out Infestors entirely. Unless this core problem is fixed, the Infestor issue will never go away. This ultimately isn't a balance issue. It's a design issue. Yeah except it cant be fixed unless you weaken infesters dramatically, to the point where the unit is entirely redesigned [which means a rebalancing of every single zerg unit] or its simply abandoned, which would also necessitate total redesign.
Perhaps that really is what is necessary and perhaps the game would be better off with that redesign.
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On November 08 2012 19:04 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. exactly this^. Casters play a huge role in sc2, more than just a support unit, dont hate on the infestor, hate on casters.
I don't know what's worse; that he may or may not be trolling and redirected two pages of comments to Sentries instead of the topic of Infestors, or that you're actually agreeing with him. Or maybe you're both trolling and we're all laughing sometime, somewhere. Regardless, no other caster unit has the game-changing impact that Infestors do.
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On November 08 2012 18:28 Talack wrote: 11/11 rax, not waited for "people to figure it out" Thors without energy, not waited for "people to figure it out" Mass ghosts in late-game TvZ, not waited for "people to figure it out" 1-1-1 not waited for "people to figure it out"
The community knows when something is OP DB... Common dude : /
I second this!
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On November 08 2012 19:27 Xpace wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 19:04 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 08 2012 09:22 sitromit wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. It's also not uncommon to see 15-20 Sentries early-mid game. exactly this^. Casters play a huge role in sc2, more than just a support unit, dont hate on the infestor, hate on casters. I don't know what's worse; that he may or may not be trolling and redirected two pages of comments to Sentries instead of the topic of Infestors, or that you're actually agreeing with him. Or maybe you're both trolling and we're all laughing sometime, somewhere. Regardless, no other caster unit has the game-changing impact that Infestors do. Yes it does... Immortal, Sentry all-ins would be worthless without Sentries, and whole Protoss early game is based on Sentries. The way Zerg is destroying mid and late game with Infestors, the same way Protoss is destroying early and mid game with Sentries. Same as Fungal, few clutch Force Fields can end the game instantly. Now, the thing that Infestors are easier to use, is different matter, both units are broken in my eyes.
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On November 08 2012 19:55 kinsky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 18:28 Talack wrote: 11/11 rax, not waited for "people to figure it out" Thors without energy, not waited for "people to figure it out" Mass ghosts in late-game TvZ, not waited for "people to figure it out" 1-1-1 not waited for "people to figure it out"
The community knows when something is OP DB... Common dude : / I second this!
had to laugh at the 11 11 rax one while still gsl-level-player lose to it right now, and they lose too often. maybe its still OP?!
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well i know blizzard changed their approach and will not balance as they used to (nerf into the ground within less than a month of the first occurence of imbalance)
but now they have taken a lot of time, and should already have indetified the problem and reached a conclusion.
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On November 08 2012 20:06 Naphal wrote: well i know blizzard changed their approach and will not balance as they used to (nerf into the ground within less than a month of the first occurence of imbalance)
but now they have taken a lot of time, and should already have indetified the problem and reached a conclusion.
Yeah, it's time to nerf marines and sentries somehow after 2 years.
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On November 08 2012 18:28 Talack wrote: 11/11 rax, not waited for "people to figure it out" Thors without energy, not waited for "people to figure it out" Mass ghosts in late-game TvZ, not waited for "people to figure it out" 1-1-1 not waited for "people to figure it out"
The community knows when something is OP DB... Common dude : / Those things did impact winrates considerably very fast though, without being key pieces of the Terran arsenal (except maybe the Thor in TvP). Which is not the case for the infestor.
People complain massively about the infestor because of design, which is something Blizzard doesn't really like to touch on (except for mass thors which according to them looked bad...).
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"The community's ability to develop new strategies is worthy of respect."
...you never respected this ability until the Queen buff. At least be consistent you asshat.
Infestors need to change simply because of one thing, variety. They force you to play a certain way and makes the game a constant repeat of Infestor BLords in nearly every ZvX game I watch. Makes SC2 unwatchable for me. So Browder fix the damn Infestors so other races aren't forced to play certain ways.
User was warned for this post
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Infestors were too good 1,2,3,4 and 5 month ago and will still be too good next month
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On November 08 2012 20:28 Femari wrote: "The community's ability to develop new strategies is worthy of respect."
...you never respected this ability until the Queen buff. At least be consistent you asshat.
Infestors need to change simply because of one thing, variety. They force you to play a certain way and makes the game a constant repeat of Infestor BLords in nearly every ZvX game I watch. Makes SC2 unwatchable for me. So Browder fix the damn Infestors so other races aren't forced to play certain ways.
You mean like every TvX game is "get creative vs mass marines"? (btw, marine's a unit that blizzard has acknowledged to be very powerful, but left for figuring, because they didn't want to interfer with core gameplay)
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On November 08 2012 09:14 AnomalySC2 wrote: This is a good approach to balance. Basically they're saying, we know that infestor builds have holes or weaknesses and we're just waiting for the community to find them. Please don't nerf stuff you know isn't OP. That said, fungal was changed from its original design, so it may very well be too good. Only david kim and co know for sure. The design where it locks your units in place for 8s? Are you sure you want to go back to that? Can you imagine what Zerg pro players would do with such power.
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On November 08 2012 20:32 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 20:28 Femari wrote: "The community's ability to develop new strategies is worthy of respect."
...you never respected this ability until the Queen buff. At least be consistent you asshat.
Infestors need to change simply because of one thing, variety. They force you to play a certain way and makes the game a constant repeat of Infestor BLords in nearly every ZvX game I watch. Makes SC2 unwatchable for me. So Browder fix the damn Infestors so other races aren't forced to play certain ways. You mean like every TvX game is "get creative vs mass marines"? (btw, marine's a unit that blizzard has acknowledged to be very powerful, but left for figuring, because they didn't want to interfer with core gameplay) which blizzard's solution becomes a shitton of aoe.
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What I don't understand is what new strategies are going to be figured out. Infestors are the most versatile unit in the game. It's not like someone's going to discover some incredible new strategy that somehow counters infestors.
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Take out the Infestor or nerf it, and zerg gonna drop to 10% win ratio.. how should i survive a zvz against mutas by not going mutas myself? .. dont tell me to go queen cause you cant pop so many queens also they are useless midgame due mobilty .. to many spores are waste of larva and money... hydras are shit .... so tell me how we gonna survive ZvZ without infestor and how we gonna win a ZvT when the enmy goes like 100000 marines and tanks ... (dont say Banes cause i gonna laugh at you HARD .. play vs good terrans and you gonna know how useless banes are without infestors .. an mutas are atm shit in ZvT) ... and i dont have to discuss with you the imbaness of Blinkstalkers when you dont have infestors
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Perhaps medivacs' heal should also act as a restoration spell from broodwar, aka heal dispels fungal on each individual marine/marauder it targets.
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On November 08 2012 20:54 NesquiKGG wrote:Take out the Infestor or nerf it, and zerg gonna drop to 10% win ratio.. how should i survive a zvz against mutas by not going mutas myself? .. dont tell me to go queen cause you cant pop so many queens also they are useless midgame due mobilty .. to many spores are waste of larva and money... hydras are shit .... so tell me how we gonna survive ZvZ without infestor and how we gonna win a ZvT when the enmy goes like 100000 marines and tanks ... (dont say Banes cause i gonna laugh at you HARD .. play vs good terrans and you gonna know how useless banes are without infestors .. an mutas are atm shit in ZvT) ... and i dont have to discuss with you the imbaness of Blinkstalkers when you dont have infestors
well nerfing the infestor doesnt mean destroying it's function entirely. Lets say fungal would be altered to reduce movement to 60% (arbitrary number), you still get the same functionality with it. Same goes for ZvZ. I actually believe it would increase the depth of zvz, as mutas are normally completely shut down by infestors. Changing the fungal effect to slow would encourage using mutas micro heavy to snipe infestors even more than it is presently done.
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On November 08 2012 20:54 NesquiKGG wrote:Take out the Infestor or nerf it, and zerg gonna drop to 10% win ratio.. how should i survive a zvz against mutas by not going mutas myself? .. dont tell me to go queen cause you cant pop so many queens also they are useless midgame due mobilty .. to many spores are waste of larva and money... hydras are shit .... so tell me how we gonna survive ZvZ without infestor and how we gonna win a ZvT when the enmy goes like 100000 marines and tanks ... (dont say Banes cause i gonna laugh at you HARD .. play vs good terrans and you gonna know how useless banes are without infestors .. an mutas are atm shit in ZvT) ... and i dont have to discuss with you the imbaness of Blinkstalkers when you dont have infestors
Change fungal so it roots only air and/or armored to deal with mutas and stalkers...as for mutas being bad in TvZ, that's simply not true and it's never been true. Every unit composition is viable for Zerg; the game is based on economy, timings, and transitions, not "I make my ball of stuff and you make yours and we throw them at each other." TvZ hinges on multipronged aggression from both sides and there are countless underemployed tactics for both races. Your post is sensational and exactly the type of narrow-minded, defeatist attitude we've seen from Zergs since the early days of Starcraft 2.
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if people invested as much time in trying to develop new strategies as they do in whining all over the internet sc2 could be a better game...
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So, he won´t change anything until a few months when he realizes that it isn´t just a phase, but a OP unit. Infestor is really what makes all matchups with Z very awkward to watch.
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Hahah as if Browder would ever admit that something as fundamental as the infestor (which has been altered before, twice I believe) needs further balance work 2 and a half years after game release. The carrier-interceptor comment was just fucking hilarious.
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On November 08 2012 21:03 vojnik wrote: if people invested as much time in trying to develop new strategies as they do in whining all over the internet sc2 could be a better game...
Enlighten us then oh greatest of great strategist. What wonderfull ideas do you have that no pro players have thought about?
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On November 08 2012 21:05 Solarist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 21:03 vojnik wrote: if people invested as much time in trying to develop new strategies as they do in whining all over the internet sc2 could be a better game... Enlighten us then oh greatest of great strategist. What wonderfull ideas do you have that no pro players have thought about?
i didnt say i had all the strategies in my mind, but people used to complain about the sentry for a verrrry long time and just stopped and accepted that blizzard wont do anything which is a major design change in this game, do not expect major design change in WOL, try to work with what you got...
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On November 08 2012 21:07 vojnik wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 21:05 Solarist wrote:On November 08 2012 21:03 vojnik wrote: if people invested as much time in trying to develop new strategies as they do in whining all over the internet sc2 could be a better game... Enlighten us then oh greatest of great strategist. What wonderfull ideas do you have that no pro players have thought about? i didnt say i had all the strategies in my mind, but people used to complain about the sentry for a verrrry long time and just stopped and accepted that blizzard wont do anything which is a major design change in this game, do not expect major design change in WOL, try to work with what you got...
nonetheless the sentry IS a very bad design as discussed wide and abroad quite recently. That a unit can be left in the game with decent winratios doesnt mean it's a good design. However regarding your argument, i have the feeling that the deal with infestors is slightly different. Sentry's can be overcome by usage off higher tech (burrow/infestor, mediavec(partly) ghost). The infestor isnt necessarily really overcome by any tech as it beats both HT and Ghosts in efficiency and versatility in middle to late game.
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This community is somewhat childish -_-". I am glad that Blizzard changed their stance on balance from kneejerk reaction like they did with BF and ghost to be a bit more cautious. Although, I still think Infestor will need to be tweaked in some way but I am willing to wait to see how it will work out in few months.
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On November 08 2012 09:14 AnomalySC2 wrote: This is a good approach to balance. Basically they're saying, we know that infestor builds have holes or weaknesses and we're just waiting for the community to find them. Please don't nerf stuff you know isn't OP. That said, fungal was changed from its original design, so it may very well be too good. Only david kim and co know for sure.
yeah only david kim and co could know, because so far they have shown an amazing ability to iron out all the annoying stuff and balance problems by continually adjusting bunker build time
im sure people that are playing this game for money or that are playing hours every day and spend more hours watching pros play and analyzing the game have no clue how this game works, its just too complicated. the only persons who can possible know anything about starcraft are browser and kim...
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On November 08 2012 21:20 summerloud wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:14 AnomalySC2 wrote: This is a good approach to balance. Basically they're saying, we know that infestor builds have holes or weaknesses and we're just waiting for the community to find them. Please don't nerf stuff you know isn't OP. That said, fungal was changed from its original design, so it may very well be too good. Only david kim and co know for sure. yeah only david kim and co could know, because so far they have shown an amazing ability to iron out all the annoying stuff and balance problems by continually adjusting bunker build time im sure people that are playing this game for money or that are playing hours every day and spend more hours watching pros play and analyzing the game have no clue how this game works, its just too complicated. the only persons who can possible know anything about starcraft are browser and kim... I take it you haven't heard of the pro forum on BNet.
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Erm that main problem is that fungal stuns. If it didn't stun it would be fine.
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What concerns me is that the Development team did not wait to mitigate Psionic Storms and Ghost Snipe when that was considered to be over powered.
Now, not just pros but the entire community is screaming about infestor. The only problem I see with it is that usually such powerful units cannot attack air or have a long cool-down.
The infestor - on the other hand - can attack both air and ground units, can attack in a area of effect and also prevent all forms of micro management (undodgeable spell). A bit too much, really?
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This is what happens when Blizzard listens to the community:
http://www.gamersdailynews.com/userfiles/image/holy_shit_this_is_awesome.jpg
Please Blizzard we need Dinoriders with imba Lasers that can suicide themself by exploding. Blizzard should just listen to progamers even though people will always be a bit biased about their own race.
I think Infestor could take a small nerf though, nothing big or gamebreaking.
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On November 08 2012 21:31 Unshapely wrote: What concerns me is that the Development team did not wait to mitigate Psionic Storms and Ghost Snipe when that was considered to be over powered.
Now, not just pros but the entire community is screaming about infestor. The only problem I see with it is that usually such powerful units cannot attack air or have a long cool-down.
The infestor - on the other hand - can attack both air and ground units, can attack in a area of effect and also prevent all forms of micro management (undodgeable spell). A bit too much, really?
Snipe was known to be overpowered for more then 1 year. It was not used often because terran had about 10 of other OP options before ghosts, which were nerfed. I have no idea who made up the myth about immediate snipe nerf.
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browder knows whats going on with the balance
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On November 08 2012 21:03 vojnik wrote: if people invested as much time in trying to develop new strategies as they do in whining all over the internet sc2 could be a better game...
I don't think posters on here and Bnet are going to be developing new pro strategies anytime soon anyways. And eventhough pros talk about balance in interviews, they are all trying their best to find new strategies. These 2 aren't mutually exclusive. You can complain and hope for buffs/nerfs while trying to come up with new strategies.
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Perfectly reasonable post & commendable attitude, I fully support this. At the same time, one has to ask himself, how the fuck is it that when people QQ about Terran, Ghosts get nerfed immediately, Bunkers get nerfed, queens get buffed, ovies get buffed. But the other way around, we 'wait and see'.
Show some fkn consistency, at least from now on.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 08 2012 21:45 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 21:31 Unshapely wrote: What concerns me is that the Development team did not wait to mitigate Psionic Storms and Ghost Snipe when that was considered to be over powered.
Now, not just pros but the entire community is screaming about infestor. The only problem I see with it is that usually such powerful units cannot attack air or have a long cool-down.
The infestor - on the other hand - can attack both air and ground units, can attack in a area of effect and also prevent all forms of micro management (undodgeable spell). A bit too much, really? Snipe was known to be overpowered for more then 1 year. It was not used often because terran had about 10 of other OP options before ghosts, which were nerfed. I have no idea who made up the myth about immediate snipe nerf. Terran had to gradually weave in Ghosts to get that composition which was incredibly strong granted. Similarly there are Terran lategame comps that are extremely good against Z lategame now, but are almost impossible to get to, like the Raven-centric lategame we're seeing. Terran's uber-comps are good, but so hard to get to that I'm not sure they justified all the nerfs
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On November 08 2012 22:25 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 21:45 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 08 2012 21:31 Unshapely wrote: What concerns me is that the Development team did not wait to mitigate Psionic Storms and Ghost Snipe when that was considered to be over powered.
Now, not just pros but the entire community is screaming about infestor. The only problem I see with it is that usually such powerful units cannot attack air or have a long cool-down.
The infestor - on the other hand - can attack both air and ground units, can attack in a area of effect and also prevent all forms of micro management (undodgeable spell). A bit too much, really? Snipe was known to be overpowered for more then 1 year. It was not used often because terran had about 10 of other OP options before ghosts, which were nerfed. I have no idea who made up the myth about immediate snipe nerf. Terran had to gradually weave in Ghosts to get that composition which was incredibly strong granted. Similarly there are Terran lategame comps that are extremely good against Z lategame now, but are almost impossible to get to, like the Raven-centric lategame we're seeing. Terran's uber-comps are good, but so hard to get to that I'm not sure they justified all the nerfs And ironically that terran uber-comp gets demolished by infestors.
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whenever i build infestors they die super fast, i miss every fungal and when i try to pop out infested terrans my infestors walk around like a dog chasing his tail ...
infestors are fine for me. dont fix plx
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On November 08 2012 22:12 n0ise wrote: Perfectly reasonable post & commendable attitude, I fully support this. At the same time, one has to ask himself, how the fuck is it that when people QQ about Terran, Ghosts get nerfed immediately, Bunkers get nerfed, queens get buffed, ovies get buffed. But the other way around, we 'wait and see'.
Show some fkn consistency, at least from now on.
Dude, you are either ignorant or a hypocrite. Check State of the Game Episode 37 from 4 may 2011. It took blizzard 1.5 years to fix all the shit disscused.
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the fact is that infestors are by design boring. it's not fun to play against or watch because a large portion of units will just be stuck there forever without being able to do anything. the only plausible "big play" is by somehow managing to snag a ball of air units or bio and running in banes or infesteds which happens less and less nowadays.
mostly it's just about making their army stand still like an idiot and be slowly whittled to death by never ending broodlings, how is that fun?
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The irony is that Blizzard wanted to make fungal not target air units, be a slow projectile and not root blink stalker (not all at once but they tried each of them individually) before/with the DPS buff. The community rejected all of them and now fungal simply has none of these weaknesses. Now the community demands changes but Blizzard is unwilling to for whatever reason.
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On November 08 2012 23:04 SinCitta wrote: The irony is that Blizzard wanted to make fungal not target air units, be a slow projectile and not root blink stalker (not all at once but they tried each of them individually) before/with the DPS buff. The community rejected all of them and now fungal simply has none of these weaknesses. Now the community demands changes but Blizzard is unwilling to for whatever reason. True, but these changes were proposed at a time when Zerg was not performing so well.
If Blizzard were to make those changes now, they would surely be welcomed.
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They admit something is wrong. Finally. After what, 7 months of ignoring the community and tournament results, along with telling all of us how fun and fluffy HotS will be.
Maybe they will finally wake up and understand that the game has a lot of major design flaws at some point?..
Naaaaaah.
Infestor needs a major rework. All of its abilities don't make any sence. They are either too good or just plain useless.
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What I don't understand is this: People have said the ghost snipe era displayed massive imbalance in terran's favour, fair enough. The common explanation is that with ghost snipes, a terran can essentially vaporize a zerg's entire T3 army within the span of seconds.
Now explain this: Sniping 10 broodlords, just once each, would require 20 actions (press snipe hotkey and click on broodlord), and is extremely APM intensive. To fungal 10 marines, you need 2 actions (fungal hotkey+click on clump of marines). The "clicking" portion is FAR easier than clicking on individual broodlords, due to the area-of-effect possessed by fungal growth.
How is it that the ghost was seen as "extremely imbalanced" if the rapid sniping was so difficult to pull off as opposed to simply clicking the area and mass of units that were to be fungaled?
It really doesn't make sense to me, and is an elephant in the room.
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How bad would it be if infestors didn't stun ground units? Just did damage over time. Cause the damage is pretty impressive. However, this might cause infestors being easily stimed and picked off. Maybe increase the range a tiny bit. But it would cause players to have good positioning with baneling support for infestors to ensure any marines coming forward would be suicide.
However, keep the infestor to stun air units for dealing with drops, and early air pressure so mid game infestors remaing viable.
TLDR; Take away stun from infestors completely. See how that works. Than try a slow. I think a slow is just as bad as a stun because your not gunna be able to micro anyways.
EDIT: It might be really cool if fungal growth was an AOE positional control spell. aka, you cast it in an area and it stays on the ground and it slows and damages any units to go on it. This lasts longer if casted on creep.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
On November 08 2012 09:33 Soda wrote: I think infestor control has improved immensely in the last couple mouths. Pros have getting better about not headbutting their infestors into deathballs. That could be part of the reason why they seem imbalanced without a major buff.
Going from headbutting infestors into not headbutting infestors isn't the sign of good control, that is a sign of not having bad control.
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fungal growth is amazing to watch imo, it makes people micro without it would be too easy for terrans to 1a etc
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I hate seeing mass infestors (and even mass broodlords), but I don't see how nerfing either of them will fix it.
If you nerf infestors but leave them better than zerglings and roaches, Zerg still builds infestors en masse and everyone complains at how stupid it is. Maybe zerg wins a little less.
If you nerf infestors so they're worse than massing zerglings and roaches, Zerg gets walked over because we know that mass roach is worthless.
So what are you going to do?
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On November 08 2012 23:11 Mementoss wrote: How bad would it be if infestors didn't stun ground units? Just did damage over time. Cause the damage is pretty impressive. However, this might cause infestors being easily stimed and picked off. Maybe increase the range a tiny bit. But it would cause players to have good positioning with baneling support for infestors to ensure any marines coming forward would be suicide.
However, keep the infestor to stun air units for dealing with drops, and early air pressure so mid game infestors remaing viable.
TLDR; Take away stun from infestors completely. See how that works. Than try a slow. I think a slow is just as bad as a stun because your not gunna be able to micro anyways.
EDIT: It might be really cool if fungal growth was an AOE positional control spell. aka, you cast it in an area and it stays on the ground and it slows and damages any units to go on it. This lasts longer if casted on creep.
The damage is impressive on low HP, on the rest of units is just ok, but the root is pretty important for zergs to be able to connect his melee units or hold ground
The problem with the infestor is not being overpowered, but being the biggest pillar holding zerg's army. If you nerf it, you need to balance more stuff, and when you balance more stuff, you have to take more match ups into that equation. That's why it's not as simple as "nerf unit A, buff unit B".
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On November 08 2012 23:11 Mementoss wrote: How bad would it be if infestors didn't stun ground units? Just did damage over time. Cause the damage is pretty impressive. However, this might cause infestors being easily stimed and picked off. Maybe increase the range a tiny bit. But it would cause players to have good positioning with baneling support for infestors to ensure any marines coming forward would be suicide.
However, keep the infestor to stun air units for dealing with drops, and early air pressure so mid game infestors remaing viable.
TLDR; Take away stun from infestors completely. See how that works. Than try a slow. I think a slow is just as bad as a stun because your not gunna be able to micro anyways.
EDIT: It might be really cool if fungal growth was an AOE positional control spell. aka, you cast it in an area and it stays on the ground and it slows and damages any units to go on it. This lasts longer if casted on creep.
you're supposed to use other units as a shield, exactly like what you said for banelings. the game isn't gonna play itself for you.
it's like asking in BW - what's stopping tanks from picking off HT? what's stopping mutas from picking off HT? the answer really is brains.
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It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that...
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On November 08 2012 23:04 SinCitta wrote: The irony is that Blizzard wanted to make fungal not target air units, be a slow projectile and not root blink stalker (not all at once but they tried each of them individually) before/with the DPS buff. The community rejected all of them and now fungal simply has none of these weaknesses. Now the community demands changes but Blizzard is unwilling to for whatever reason. The changes were discarded because they broke the ZvX mu, making ZvZ a muta fest coinflip, The ZvT a joke thanks to stim, and the PvZ was just 8 gate +2 blink all in.
The infestor is not the problem. The lack of any other viable unit in the mid game which transition into late game, and the impossibility of winning the protoss void ray / collosus death ball without the current FG, is the problem.
Fix that, and I will be happy to NOT make infestors all the time because I'M FORCED to do so.
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On November 08 2012 23:30 Qwerty85 wrote: It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that...
>60% of terrans in GSL Ro4 for 2 years - balance, terrans just are better players. 50% of zergs in Ro16 for 1 round - endless whine. Freaking retards...
User was warned for this post
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On November 08 2012 23:21 shadymmj wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:11 Mementoss wrote: How bad would it be if infestors didn't stun ground units? Just did damage over time. Cause the damage is pretty impressive. However, this might cause infestors being easily stimed and picked off. Maybe increase the range a tiny bit. But it would cause players to have good positioning with baneling support for infestors to ensure any marines coming forward would be suicide.
However, keep the infestor to stun air units for dealing with drops, and early air pressure so mid game infestors remaing viable.
TLDR; Take away stun from infestors completely. See how that works. Than try a slow. I think a slow is just as bad as a stun because your not gunna be able to micro anyways.
EDIT: It might be really cool if fungal growth was an AOE positional control spell. aka, you cast it in an area and it stays on the ground and it slows and damages any units to go on it. This lasts longer if casted on creep. you're supposed to use other units as a shield, exactly like what you said for banelings. the game isn't gonna play itself for you. it's like asking in BW - what's stopping tanks from picking off HT? what's stopping mutas from picking off HT? the answer really is brains.
Thats my point, the damage is already really good. So it would be more exciting if more risk was involved. Aka, units aren't rooted. Cause really, moving 50% slower means, you aren't going to be doing any micro worth while anyways. The only thing this would be relevant for would be chargelots not getting 100% shut down by fungal.
The more I think about it. The more I kinda like the idea of making it a positional AOE spell placed on terrain. But I doubt that would ever happen.
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On November 08 2012 23:40 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:30 Qwerty85 wrote: It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that... >60% of terrans in GSL Ro4 for 2 years - balance, terrans just are better players. 50% of zergs in Ro16 for 1 round - endless whine. Freaking retards...
You are 100% missing the point. The point is, can you name 1 situation late game where proper use of infestors wouldn't win? They have spells that are good at every point adn situation. Rather than requiring players to chose what units to build and having different ways to use them.
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On November 08 2012 23:42 Mementoss wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:40 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 08 2012 23:30 Qwerty85 wrote: It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that... >60% of terrans in GSL Ro4 for 2 years - balance, terrans just are better players. 50% of zergs in Ro16 for 1 round - endless whine. Freaking retards... You are 100% missing the point. The point is, can you name 1 situation late game where proper use of infestors wouldn't win? They have spells that are good at every point adn situation. Rather than requiring players to chose what units to build and having different ways to use them. I will ask you the same, but in other way. Can you name 1 situation late game where not having infestors can win the game to the zerg?
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On November 08 2012 23:11 xAdra wrote: What I don't understand is this: People have said the ghost snipe era displayed massive imbalance in terran's favour, fair enough. The common explanation is that with ghost snipes, a terran can essentially vaporize a zerg's entire T3 army within the span of seconds.
Now explain this: Sniping 10 broodlords, just once each, would require 20 actions (press snipe hotkey and click on broodlord), and is extremely APM intensive. To fungal 10 marines, you need 2 actions (fungal hotkey+click on clump of marines). The "clicking" portion is FAR easier than clicking on individual broodlords, due to the area-of-effect possessed by fungal growth.
How is it that the ghost was seen as "extremely imbalanced" if the rapid sniping was so difficult to pull off as opposed to simply clicking the area and mass of units that were to be fungaled?
It really doesn't make sense to me, and is an elephant in the room. Though sc2 is apm intensive. It's not a game about who can click 20 times faster with a group of units. It would be the same thing if fungal costed 1/3 energy, did 1/3 dmg and lasted 1/3 of time, but the damage would be instant. You would have to click 3x faster, but you could evaporate all <150hp units immediately.
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On November 08 2012 23:40 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:30 Qwerty85 wrote: It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that... >60% of terrans in GSL Ro4 for 2 years - balance, terrans just are better players. 50% of zergs in Ro16 for 1 round - endless whine. Freaking retards...
Yes, and no one ever whine about Terran and Blizzard never nerfed Terran or buffed the other races? Freaking retard.
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On November 08 2012 23:46 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:11 xAdra wrote: What I don't understand is this: People have said the ghost snipe era displayed massive imbalance in terran's favour, fair enough. The common explanation is that with ghost snipes, a terran can essentially vaporize a zerg's entire T3 army within the span of seconds.
Now explain this: Sniping 10 broodlords, just once each, would require 20 actions (press snipe hotkey and click on broodlord), and is extremely APM intensive. To fungal 10 marines, you need 2 actions (fungal hotkey+click on clump of marines). The "clicking" portion is FAR easier than clicking on individual broodlords, due to the area-of-effect possessed by fungal growth.
How is it that the ghost was seen as "extremely imbalanced" if the rapid sniping was so difficult to pull off as opposed to simply clicking the area and mass of units that were to be fungaled?
It really doesn't make sense to me, and is an elephant in the room. Though sc2 is apm intensive. It's not a game about who can click 20 times faster with a group of units. Not true. Unless it's at the highest level where the faster player is mostly needlessly spamming, a player playing 20x faster than his opponent will win every single time.
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On November 08 2012 23:44 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:42 Mementoss wrote:On November 08 2012 23:40 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 08 2012 23:30 Qwerty85 wrote: It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that... >60% of terrans in GSL Ro4 for 2 years - balance, terrans just are better players. 50% of zergs in Ro16 for 1 round - endless whine. Freaking retards... You are 100% missing the point. The point is, can you name 1 situation late game where proper use of infestors wouldn't win? They have spells that are good at every point adn situation. Rather than requiring players to chose what units to build and having different ways to use them. I will ask you the same, but in other way. Can you name 1 situation late game where not having infestors can win the game to the zerg?
Most people are not asking for a straight removal of the infestor or fungal. We would just like to make it less effective. Amulet was nerfed for HTs and people still build them. Bunkers and rax were nerfed and they are still used.
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On November 08 2012 23:44 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:42 Mementoss wrote:On November 08 2012 23:40 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 08 2012 23:30 Qwerty85 wrote: It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that... >60% of terrans in GSL Ro4 for 2 years - balance, terrans just are better players. 50% of zergs in Ro16 for 1 round - endless whine. Freaking retards... You are 100% missing the point. The point is, can you name 1 situation late game where proper use of infestors wouldn't win? They have spells that are good at every point adn situation. Rather than requiring players to chose what units to build and having different ways to use them. I will ask you the same, but in other way. Can you name 1 situation late game where not having infestors can win the game to the zerg? You do realise it's possible to buff other units to make up for that if it really is the case right?
What's the ideal balanced state of Zerg we don't know for sure yet, but it sure has hell is NOT balanced as it is.
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On November 08 2012 23:52 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:46 Tuczniak wrote:On November 08 2012 23:11 xAdra wrote: What I don't understand is this: People have said the ghost snipe era displayed massive imbalance in terran's favour, fair enough. The common explanation is that with ghost snipes, a terran can essentially vaporize a zerg's entire T3 army within the span of seconds.
Now explain this: Sniping 10 broodlords, just once each, would require 20 actions (press snipe hotkey and click on broodlord), and is extremely APM intensive. To fungal 10 marines, you need 2 actions (fungal hotkey+click on clump of marines). The "clicking" portion is FAR easier than clicking on individual broodlords, due to the area-of-effect possessed by fungal growth.
How is it that the ghost was seen as "extremely imbalanced" if the rapid sniping was so difficult to pull off as opposed to simply clicking the area and mass of units that were to be fungaled?
It really doesn't make sense to me, and is an elephant in the room. Though sc2 is apm intensive. It's not a game about who can click 20 times faster with a group of units. Not true. Unless it's at the highest level where the faster player is mostly needlessly spamming, a player playing 20x faster than his opponent will win every single time. I meant "who can click 20 times in shorter time". It's obvious that talking about match with players with 10apm and 200apm is pointless
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On November 08 2012 23:55 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:52 S_SienZ wrote:On November 08 2012 23:46 Tuczniak wrote:On November 08 2012 23:11 xAdra wrote: What I don't understand is this: People have said the ghost snipe era displayed massive imbalance in terran's favour, fair enough. The common explanation is that with ghost snipes, a terran can essentially vaporize a zerg's entire T3 army within the span of seconds.
Now explain this: Sniping 10 broodlords, just once each, would require 20 actions (press snipe hotkey and click on broodlord), and is extremely APM intensive. To fungal 10 marines, you need 2 actions (fungal hotkey+click on clump of marines). The "clicking" portion is FAR easier than clicking on individual broodlords, due to the area-of-effect possessed by fungal growth.
How is it that the ghost was seen as "extremely imbalanced" if the rapid sniping was so difficult to pull off as opposed to simply clicking the area and mass of units that were to be fungaled?
It really doesn't make sense to me, and is an elephant in the room. Though sc2 is apm intensive. It's not a game about who can click 20 times faster with a group of units. Not true. Unless it's at the highest level where the faster player is mostly needlessly spamming, a player playing 20x faster than his opponent will win every single time. I meant "who can click 20 times in shorter time". It's obvious that talking about match with players with 10apm and 200apm is pointless 20 blink stalkers v 20 blink stalkers, you honestly believe that "who can click 20 times in shorter time" won't make a difference?
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I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere.
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On November 08 2012 23:53 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 23:44 Eviscerador wrote:On November 08 2012 23:42 Mementoss wrote:On November 08 2012 23:40 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 08 2012 23:30 Qwerty85 wrote: It is pretty obvious that infestor is too versatile unit. It deals against any playstyle well, it doesn't require zerg to react by scouting because it is useful (in TvZ for example) against pure bio, marine-tank, mech playstyles, even late game terran vs zerg deathball style.
Fungal is in my opinion broken spell because, if we assume equal/similar skill levels of players, it is too unforgiving for the opponent. One fungal roots and stops move commands, making every clumping of units fatal mistake.
If siege tanks or thors could for example root infestors, banes or mutas and also deal splash damage at the same time, it would be considered extremely overpowered. You fly in thor range with mutas, all mutas dead. You come too close to tanks with infestors, all infestors dead. It would simply be too unforgiving.
You could also make similar comparison with ghost/infestor. Ghost was widely used vs zerg because how good it was against almost everything zerg could throw at terran player. Ghosts were made useless in TvZ, they are even unable to counter unit like infestor which they are supposed to counter.
Not to mention that infestor usage in every single matchup and vs every single playstyle makes games repetitive and boring to watch. ZvZ is the best example of that argument.
It seems like double standards to me. And now when we have 8/9 zergs advancing in next stage of Code S it is pretty obvious that zerg is the race that deals best results in Starcraft 2.
Does that make the race imbalanced, you be the judge of that... >60% of terrans in GSL Ro4 for 2 years - balance, terrans just are better players. 50% of zergs in Ro16 for 1 round - endless whine. Freaking retards... You are 100% missing the point. The point is, can you name 1 situation late game where proper use of infestors wouldn't win? They have spells that are good at every point adn situation. Rather than requiring players to chose what units to build and having different ways to use them. I will ask you the same, but in other way. Can you name 1 situation late game where not having infestors can win the game to the zerg? Most people are not asking for a straight removal of the infestor or fungal. We would just like to make it less effective. Amulet was nerfed for HTs and people still build them. Bunkers and rax were nerfed and they are still used. I know, and I'm the first in the list who wants to have more options to play into mid/late game aside from infestors. But if you want to win, you need them. Or just heavily outplay your opponent.
The problem is, how to twitch the infestor without breaking the game MUs, since right now you need the infestor to engage terran and protoss armies.
Without FG, it is impossible to engage terran marine tank, cost efficiently, and since today terran macro is almost in par with zerg macro, is not like you can rely in mutas sniping tanks .
Same for the Blink stalker blob, or the dreaded collosus / void ray ball.
I was really happy with the original FG, with 30 damage over 8 secs and root. Perfect positional and crowd control spell. But I just died to protoss deathballs (and the inmortal had 5 range then...) and it was nearly impossible to deal with them, since any kind of AA the zerg had desintegrate to collosus AoE (Hidra) or Voids (Corruptor) or Stalkers (Mutas), so you need AoE to deal with it.
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On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere.
You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger.
It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change.
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so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
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On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere.
They were buffed, the fungal DPS was doubled against armored targets. Before the buff, fungal damage was a nice thing, but secondary. The root was the main objective of the spell. I saw a lot of stalkers or terran bio just melting lings/ blings because even if they were root, the damage was slow, and they could keep firing for more time.
Now it is also a DPS spell, but it is because +2 blink timings and void/colo ball forced them to buff the only AoE zerg has (aside from banelings)
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On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change.
I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit.
Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground.
Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match.
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On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. The problem is that (mediocre) players are just streaming to the strategy they see as the strongest. So while we saw a good mixture of muta play vs infestor play back then, nowadays the mutaplay diminished and we see Infestors everywhere. This is just as boring as MMM all the time.
It is also a bit strange to see Zerg, who have the best production capacities until the very late game, have the arguably best late game composition. It just doesn't add up nicely. And this breaks way.
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On November 08 2012 09:17 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Buuuut you miss the point it's all about those numbers >_<. As long as winrates are in the 45-55% range it's all good, doesn't matter if the game is terrible.
Even winrates mean nothing when you have matchmaking system, witch force it to be 45-55%. For me, as a terran player i thing problem with infestors is that they are really good against bio and mech. They shud be good vs bio and ok vs mech or ok vs Bio and good vs mech. atm, they kind of counter everything.
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On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
How would Terran games work without barracks? Make SCVs, supply depot and get killed? A slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless...
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields.
yes we need more emphasis on spells like psy storm They make for great games.
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On November 09 2012 00:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
How would Terran games work without barracks? Make SCVs, supply depot and get killed? A slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless... Or maybe play a midgame with muta/ling as before and try to get an advantage? E: at least ZvT
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On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match.
Why do you think terrans are choosing to do the greedy 3 OC build? Because any aggressive besides maybe all ins with SCV pulls have also 0 chance of working. The only early Zerg loses (before 3 base for both sides) is the 11-11 with SCV pull or a totally messed up hellion defends which leads to quick gg. Queens and plus a small ground army will how any 2 base pressure. You don't even see zergs make spines anymore against bio play.
So I stand by my statements that zergs are expanding and teching much more quickly. If you look at the infestation pit and hive timings compare to the beginning of the early, you will see this. This is also why muta play has fallen out of favor.
As for PvZ , the queen made scouting harder for Protoss and overlord speed made scouting easier for Zerg. Although the effect is smaller. We now rarely see those +1 zealot timings, early Protoss timings anymore. It is all the sentry immortal or the 3 base pre hive.
Maps also play a pretty important role.
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On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies.
1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings.
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On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match.
And your 9:00 marine tank push example proves my point. It is pretty much the Terran version of the wonwonwon if you will. Push with some superior tech units before infestors. But with the hellion contain not effective, that timing just isn't there anymore. Third has already kicked in, too much creep. So zergs are getting to infestors tech without too much of a threat from terrans, thus 'safer'.
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On November 09 2012 00:19 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
How would Terran games work without barracks? Make SCVs, supply depot and get killed? A slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless... terran without barracks will be similar to zerg not having zerglings. medivac would be a better unit to use.
infestors were already nerfed, np got nerfed and its movement speed got nerfed, fungal was nerfed in patch 1.3.3 and 1.4
I find it funny that no one complained about infestors much when ghost pretty much countered all T3 zerg units with snipe and after the nerf, no terran gets ghost against zerg and now you say "a slight nerf to infestor doesn't make it useless..."? lol
the problem doesn't lie in infestors, the problem is how fast zerg can get the ball out and then can grow its size faster than opponent can catchup
the 2011 tvz we saw tonnes of all ins from zerg going roach ling baneling bust due to how greedy terran can be played and how difficult it was to scout an all in from terran (mass blueflame hellions; 2 port banshee; marauder hellion etc) and that was balanced?
Getting roaches delayed the 3rd and loses to an earlier siege tank marine push often the mvp vs life final show how even after the buffs, terran can have such diverse opening even if the initial buildings were the same and losing to mass blue flame hellions.
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Justin Browder on the infestor: "The infestor ROCKS"
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On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed.
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Infestors got a slight nerf after some huge buffs. And the Snipe nerf wasn't slightly, but huge. We knew that back when they issued the nerf. Some slight infestor nerf could be: make fungal a projectile, decrease movement speed, increase IT energy 25-> 30, fungal doesn't root but slows by 75% and disables blink etc.etc.
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On November 09 2012 00:17 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. The problem is that (mediocre) players are just streaming to the strategy they see as the strongest. So while we saw a good mixture of muta play vs infestor play back then, nowadays the mutaplay diminished and we see Infestors everywhere. This is just as boring as MMM all the time. It is also a bit strange to see Zerg, who have the best production capacities until the very late game, have the arguably best late game composition. It just doesn't add up nicely. And this breaks way.
Good points. It is strange that blizzard denies the months of infestor dominance we have seen before. I personally feel in the scrappy range i am playing the infestor is the most powerfull unit. And if i see a poor toss going in GSL carrier... vs infestor it is redundant. Fungal and infested terrans can dominate whole games and the did this already month before on every level. It is just that SC 2 is complex enough that you can also mess this up but if it comes to a situation your infestor can make itself count huge in every situation you are not screwing around with your army. For a pro with good control this is an easy task.
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On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. Roaches counter Hellions... Marauders counter Roaches, yes. but with no more Hellions, Zerglings easily counter Marauders. This is if Terran goes all in. And nothing is stopping the Zerg from going 4 to 6 Queens anyways, pre-patch.
On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air.
Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with.
Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles...
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On November 09 2012 00:35 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. And your 9:00 marine tank push example proves my point. It is pretty much the Terran version of the wonwonwon if you will. Push with some superior tech units before infestors. But with the hellion contain not effective, that timing just isn't there anymore. Third has already kicked in, too much creep. So zergs are getting to infestors tech without too much of a threat from terrans, thus 'safer'. But before the range buff, those pushes were almost a win push if the terran executed the contain properly, and the zerg was in disadvantadge all the time.
Now it could be defended, but it can also win the game for the terran if the execusion is good and the zerg doesn't defend well
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On November 09 2012 00:49 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air. Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with. Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles...
are you kidding me? theres no way cracklings can go up against the mass amount of bio that would all of a sudden be super-viable without infestors.
also, theres a reason as to why people dont use roaches in that position, theres not enough supply for it. the upgrades makes them fall behind and im sorry but in what universe would ~40 supply worth of roaches counter blinkstalkers / colo / archons and/or storms?
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In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. ZvP is a different game though. My suggestion wouldn't be to nerf infestor, but to nerf protoss. Maybe make phoenix energy regen faster and lift cost less energy. that way, when Zergs try to mass their infestors before going into broodlords, a good Toss can pick them up and kill them. Or something like that. Nerfing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth for all parties involved.
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On November 09 2012 00:49 geokilla wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. Roaches counter Hellions... Marauders counter Roaches, yes. but with no more Hellions, Zerglings easily counter Marauders. Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air. Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with. Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles...
PvZ late game without infestors is a Collo Void ray fest. Just 4 or 6 voidrays, 4 colos and stalkers can shut down any zerg composition with ease if the zerg don't mix infestors.
And that without the momma ship...
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On November 09 2012 00:53 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:49 geokilla wrote:On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. Roaches counter Hellions... Marauders counter Roaches, yes. but with no more Hellions, Zerglings easily counter Marauders. On November 09 2012 00:13 Latty wrote: so how would the late game work without infestors then? basically zerg gets army, army gets killed, opponent wins. beside when the opponent messes up horribly.
Let's assume Zerg still goes mass Corruptors/Broodlords against Terran or Protoss. Instead of Winfestors, you can substitue Winfestors with Cracklings. In TvZ, there is still probably a lack of anti air and the Corruptors would easily deal with the Vikings if there are enough Corruptors. Even if the Vikings and possible Raven composition does beat the Broodlord and Infestors, Zerg can tech switch if they got enough larva and bank because a huge chunk of Terran army is for anti air. Now for Protoss, let's assume it's the standard deathball with Mothership. Without Infestors, it'd be a lot more difficult to win due to blink Stalkers, but definitely not impossible I think. Get enough Roaches and if the Stalkers blink in to snipe the Broodlords, Roaches will snipe the Stalkers. The only AOE damage from the Protoss against the Roaches would be from the Archons and Colossi, which the Corruptors would be dealing with. Now all this is a simple, hypothetical kinda post because that's what everyone is doing in this thread... Take it with a grain of salt. I'm not good enough to execute this kinda build or these kinda battles... PvZ late game without infestors is a Collo Void ray fest. Just 4 or 6 voidrays, 4 colos and stalkers can shut down any zerg composition with ease if the zerg don't mix infestors. And that without the momma ship... Well either way, let's get back on point. That is Dustin Browder is somewhat acknowledging the problem with Winfestors..
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On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. 1) Failing to have a partial Evolution Chamber/Queen/Spine wall is more than “a single missclick” but whatever. 2) Zerg was never behind in economy in the first few minuts of the game against Reactor Hellion expands, don't know what you're talking about. Standard benchmarch was like 45 drones to 29 SCVs at 7'30. With Reactor Hellion triple OC Terran had a slight econ advantage for some time but the Mutalisk follow-up easily allowed Zerg to even things up because you were free to fully saturate your third while harassing a Terran stretched on three bases. 3) As stated above Marines/Tanks pushes were no more used because they were totally figured out. They were a thing of the past, really. 4) Yeah, in 2011.
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Infestor is ridiculous atm but it needs to remain strong for z to stay competitive. I think slow and an IT damage nerf along with unit size increase would do the trick. Also, ghosts should go back to costing gas and get a buff to snipe damage.
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Wow the zergs are so overreacting. Its not as if the thread is about removing infestors completely or making it absolutely not viable. Get a grip.
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On November 09 2012 00:41 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. Nice fallacies. 1) Zergs who lost to a 4 Hellions runby just played horribly. 2) Zergs who allowed 4 Hellions to contain them were doing so willingly because as far as I know, Roach Warren already existed these days. 3) No build allows you to get Hellions, a third and a sizeable 9:00 Marine/Tanks push which would threaten a Zerg. Nice try though. 4) Marines/Tanks pushes had already fallen into oblivion for months because of how easily defeated they are by +1 armor Zerglings. 1) If a single misclick is playing horribly, then yeah. 2) The point of the hellion harassing was just that, to force the zerg to be always behind in eco. And don't get me started with the Marauder, hellion push at 2 bases... 3) My fault, I meant a fast third or a 9:00 marine tank push. Not both. 4) Last time I checked, 2 base terrans use those pushes to punish early third by zergs, with some of the surviving hellions mixed. 1) so it's alright that terran can lose to a single misclick (stacking vikings for one second), but not for zerg? 2) zerg is only behind in eco while the contain is happening. I would always see as soon as that contain is broken, with an inbase macro hatch, for the zerg to then shoot up another 20 drones and a hatchery very quickly, putting them back in the lead. They just had their 5-6 gases slower, which meant they couldn't straight tech to infestors without getting some other defensive units out. 3/4) How did the winrate stay so close to 50% when terran could either be superfar ahead or easily win the game from the hellion harass?
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On November 09 2012 00:51 Eviscerador wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:35 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:17 Eviscerador wrote:On November 09 2012 00:09 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 00:02 Brawny wrote: I love how JUST NOW people are complaining about infestors when they have never once been buffed. Sure makes it seem like it's all bandwagon when it pops up out of nowhere. You do realize that the Queen buff made it a lot easier to expand more aggressively and tech harder, right? So zergs are getting out their infestors (broodlords) out a lot faster and safer. Maps has also gotten bigger. It would be like if Blizzard changed mules to be able to mine gas as well. We might see mech comps get overpowered even if the mech units themselves don't change. I have to disagree with the queen here. It is not that the zerg is now safe, is that before the zerg buff, the terrans could just win a game with 4 hellions, and contain the zerg into two bases forever while getting its own xpansion and even a fast third with a triple Orbital. Then attack at 9:00 with marine / tank and profit. Now that the terrans have to invest more than 400 mins into harassing, they are chosing to make greedy triple orbital builds and play on the zerg ground. Also, the queen in PvZ games has nothing to do since protoss just FFE straight in every match. And your 9:00 marine tank push example proves my point. It is pretty much the Terran version of the wonwonwon if you will. Push with some superior tech units before infestors. But with the hellion contain not effective, that timing just isn't there anymore. Third has already kicked in, too much creep. So zergs are getting to infestors tech without too much of a threat from terrans, thus 'safer'. But before the range buff, those pushes were almost a win push if the terran executed the contain properly, and the zerg was in disadvantadge all the time. Now it could be defended, but it can also win the game for the terran if the execusion is good and the zerg doesn't defend well
Oh, I never said the queen patch wasn't needed to stablize the early mid game in ZvT as you example shows. But by 'balancing' this early mid game, it made getting to the infestor stage much faster and zergs army becomes much much stronger at this stage.
I am responding to the people that saying that since infestors haven't changed in over 1 year, then claiming that it is OP now is not valid. What I am saying is that changes of maps, other units can lead to another unit being powerful/overpower.
Take the mass BCs. I think mass BCs with ghosts to EMP them so they cannot be feedback is probably even harder to deal with for Protoss compare to BL/infestor. Imagine if Mvp's BCs didn't stack up to get vortex by Squirtle. However, getting that army is so hard that it isn't really an issue. But if say terrans were somehow able to tech from marine medivacs into BCs pretty easily, I am sure there would be calls to nerf it.
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On November 09 2012 00:52 Martyrc wrote: In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. ZvP is a different game though. My suggestion wouldn't be to nerf infestor, but to nerf protoss. Maybe make phoenix energy regen faster and lift cost less energy. that way, when Zergs try to mass their infestors before going into broodlords, a good Toss can pick them up and kill them. Or something like that. Nerfing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth for all parties involved.
How do terrans get A LOT of ghosts or tanks out before BLs? If it was that easy, why are pro Korean terrans struggling in the match up?
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On November 09 2012 00:52 Martyrc wrote: In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. . 1) If you mass Tanks against Zerg you're in a horrible spot when he gets Broodlords. 2) If you mass Ghosts it has no effect since they're terrible at dealing with BL/Infests. Think Terrans didn't try mass Ghosts since Snipe nerf ? Think again.
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On November 09 2012 01:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 00:52 Martyrc wrote: In ZvT, you gotta get a lot of ghosts or tanks, then, with minimal micro, you will win against infestors. ZvP is a different game though. My suggestion wouldn't be to nerf infestor, but to nerf protoss. Maybe make phoenix energy regen faster and lift cost less energy. that way, when Zergs try to mass their infestors before going into broodlords, a good Toss can pick them up and kill them. Or something like that. Nerfing just leaves a bad taste in the mouth for all parties involved. How do terrans get A LOT of ghosts or tanks out before BLs? If it was that easy, why are pro Korean terrans struggling in the match up? Because he forgot to mention that if you have a lot of ghosts and tanks, you don't have many vikings for BLs, which means you lose. If you have lots of vikings and a lot of ghosts, then you don't have enough tanks or maurders for the ultras, so you lose. If you go lots of tanks and vikings, then maybe if you get lucky you can clean up the BLs while the tanks zone out the infestors. Which explains why people don't get a lot of ghosts. I've seen plenty of games where getting ghosts have actually lost the game, because they do zero damage because they get fungaled and BL'd to death, leaving you with 5 less vikings when the BLs and corruptors roll in. To fight that zerg army you need 100% supply efficiency. You can't waste 6 supply, you needed those last 3 vikings, or you have 3 too many vikings, then you needed those to be 3 maurders instead when the remax of ultras hit. You can't waste supply on ghosts when they are unlikely to do damage, and they eat up any chance you have of combating the zerg army.
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Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more?
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On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? And you really think that Protoss don't know that Carriers/Mothership/Archons/Storm is their end game dream composition? You really think that we Terrans don't know that BCs/Vikings/Ravens are our end game dream composition? But what good to us is that knowledge when Zergs get their end game dream composition between the 15' and the 20' mark while you need 5-10 minuts to get yours, trying to survive with inferior armies meanwhile, to see said dream composition still gets trashed by Fungals + dozens and dozens of IT eggs if you eventually manage to build it?
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On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? The problem is the end game happens so fast with zegs explosive economy. When you say midgame, you mean you are doing a prehive timing. If you don't hit that timing, I guarentee no matter what army you were able to produce, no matter how greedy you were in getting that army, you will lose. Try beating zerg without using your prehive timing. Try getting any army in the game you want. Try winning without effectively killing zerg before BLs (with your timing), and you will see why people compain.
I too am pretty good against zergs, because I am good at 2-base all ins, and on ladder where you rarely meet the same person twice, it is hard to stop. That doesn't mean I should say infestors/BLs aren't a problem guys, because you should just do an allin. The problem is good players figure out the allins, the timings, and you are left with having to contend with an unkillable army. And every game should not boil down to: which 2-base allin, or 3 base timing will protoss do to kill or severely cripple zerg.
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On November 08 2012 10:07 openbox1 wrote:Kydarian Amulet was removed because it provided Toss to convert gas directly to damage. Well.... Guess what, Zerg can cast fungal immediately after spawn... Isn't that gas directly to damage? Lets not talk about 8 marines per 2 supply or that infestor eggs soak up insane amounts of damage. I guess a big factor is that David Kim is a Zerg. See how quick Ghost were nerfed because they were good vs everything bio. After one or two tournaments when snipes became the go-to in the late game vs Zerg, Bliz was nono and the poor ghost got nerfed the heck out of it. No mass ghost late game. Isn't it strange they didn't say lets wait and see. Maybe Zerg can figure out a different way to take down mass ghost? Obviously the infestor is different. No its completely fine in its role as taking up 60-80 supply of a late game army. That's not too many. 20-35 infestors running around, just chilling. No Roaches, no hydras. Just a few lings, some gglords and corruptors and mass mass infestors. Not impressed by the sheer double standard.
to address some different whines posted by users:
1. amulet was nerfed cus high templar can be warped anywhere w a pylon field
2. u cant compare infestors to sentries because infestors are a higher tech and i believe they cost more as well
3. of course broodlords + infestors should beat ghosts/templar, a combination unit should be able to beat casters alone
4. although mass infestors alone are really good, they still do need support for actual battles. burrowed infestors with IT are really good at harass but so are ghosts/templars. nukes and storm drops are really effective but most of the whiners posting here are too noob/lazy to pull it off.
5. infestors can be used in every matchup but so can other units, zerglings, roaches, sentries, marines, stalkers, banshees, medivacs. of course non-zerg units are less massable cus thats how the race works. protoss/terran has different buildings for each unit so its harder to mass one single unit. zerg makes all from hatch and has larvae mechanic.
then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors.
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On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh?
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On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh?
So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins?
Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play.
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On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more?
Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ.
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On November 09 2012 01:26 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? The problem is the end game happens so fast with zegs explosive economy. When you say midgame, you mean you are doing a prehive timing. If you don't hit that timing, I guarentee no matter what army you were able to produce, no matter how greedy you were in getting that army, you will lose. Try beating zerg without using your prehive timing. Try getting any army in the game you want. Try winning without effectively killing zerg before BLs (with your timing), and you will see why people compain. I too am pretty good against zergs, because I am good at 2-base all ins, and on ladder where you rarely meet the same person twice, it is hard to stop. That doesn't mean I should say infestors/BLs aren't a problem guys, because you should just do an allin. The problem is good players figure out the allins, the timings, and you are left with having to contend with an unkillable army. And every game should not boil down to: which 2-base allin, or 3 base timing will protoss do to kill or severely cripple zerg. The key in SC (at a higher level) that protoss fail to realize is that protoss economy actually grows faster then zerg economy. I know - shocking right? What I mean by this is that Protoss can make army +economy at the same time, while zerg has to pick between 1 or the other, so this transitions into me saying that in the midgame, you are suppose to be harassing the zerg into making an army that is essentially useless (other then defending the harassment), while you get your economy up. Pre-broodlord timings are just one sort of timing atk that is convenient to hit, other timing atks include pre-60drone timing attacks, pre-third base timing attacks, finding a strat that can hit at all these different timing enables your economy to be much further then zerg and so you actually should hit the end game composition earlier then zerg (this is the case for my PvZ strat). Also, when zerg gets hive, if you get stargate right at that time, your mothership is out with 100 energy by the time zerg has like 5 broods, so sometimes, if i dont wanna hit a pre-brood timing atk, i choose to hit a 100energy mothership timing attack. both extremely strong
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On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight.
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On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight.
No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that?
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United States3648 Posts
On November 08 2012 11:28 eviltomahawk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:20 IAmMajiC wrote: Zerg players keep talking about how they need the infestor to win. If that was the case, why was ZvT one of the most balanced matchup in late 2011, where muta/ling/bling was the dominant unit composition. Infestors aren't needed, they're just easier to use. Also keep in mind that Terrans have gotten a lot better at countering muta/ling/bane compared to before. Marine splitting micro has improved tremendously among most Terran pros in particular, and many Terrans have gotten better at deflecting Muta harass. Don't forget that maps are significantly bigger and allow Zerg to get better economy and production than before, which permits the more swarmy, cost-inefficient style Zerg is supposed to have. We still see the style work well when employed, it's just that Zerg players have gotten lazy and overly dependent on fungal/gglord armies that don't require a fraction of the skill to use that hatch/lair tech armies do.
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On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
But you are a professional player?
I Like what youre saying, even on my low level of the game I have always felt that theres something more to the PvZ matchup that should make it possible to take them to a better standpoint rather than kinda throw midgame units on the zerg and hope for the best thus falling behind unless it works very well.
Do you feel like T could do something similar instead of rely on throwing hellion/marauder/marine/banshee attacks early game thus falling behind late; perhaps utilizing mules and /or supply drops and implement more ghosts/ravens to deal with infestors?
Perhaps try to hit before infestors are out and more so feign pressure than actually comitting which would force lots of larvae usage? same with when 3rd is done and should be saturated perhaps? Clearly I have no idea what im talking about xD
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On November 09 2012 01:59 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. But you are a professional player?
Well, if he is a low GM on Korean ladder like he 'claims', he is one of the top 200 players in the world. And maybe even higher than that since a lot of players have multiple accounts. But I really doubt it since he called all the eSF players bad and not innovate and put the Kespa players on a pedestal. His remarks about innovator shows that he didn't really understand the progaming scene. A lot of the 'builds' we saw in BW did not just come from the S Class players. S Class players had both the mechanics and the innovation. But a lot of B teamers were just as innovative but lacked the mechanics.
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On November 09 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:59 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. But you are a professional player? Well, if he is a low GM on Korean ladder like he 'claims', he is one of the top 200 players in the world. And maybe even higher than that since a lot of players have multiple accounts. But I really doubt it since he called all the eSF players bad and not innovate and put the Kespa players on a pedestal. His remarks about innovator shows that he didn't really understand the progaming scene. A lot of the 'builds' we saw in BW did not just come from the S Class players. S Class players had both the mechanics and the innovation. But a lot of B teamers were just as innovative but lacked the mechanics. that is true, Nestea being one of them tbh.
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Buff carriers, problem solved. Also more interesting with carriers on the field. In my lowly non-pro master ranking (I'm glad we're qualifying our play levels now...) I enjoy liberal use of carriers to beat the composition. Sure it's not fail-proof and the times we've seen it at a pro-level the toss ends up losing, but it's fun and can win at a level short of pro.
Terran should get a buff to viking ground damage as well. I have no idea what it would do, but I'd find it interesting to see them on the ground more often and have it be part of the game to determine how you want your vikings to exist, and have them be caught off guard on the ground/air.
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On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them.
lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season?
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
That would make sense if there weren't 7/8 Zergs in Code S RO16 this season.
It's not that innovation isn't possible, but it seems that WOL in its current state angles games down specific optimal angles, and the room for innovation is not all that deep. Can anybody innovate a truly viable sky Protoss build, for example? I don't think so. Maybe a gimmicky timing build, but anti-air counters are so efficient that innovation in this arena seems straight up impossible.
And of course there's the ancient 'can Terrans mech against Protoss?' question that seems to be consistently answered with 'lol no'.
I'm increasingly skeptical about the KeSPA pros triggering any significant metagame shift, too. Plenty of them are playing, but most of the time - at the top end - they're doing familiar strategies with greater efficiency and sweet sweet micro that make them more fun to watch.
I loved Baby's harass in this Code S, for example. Beautiful to watch. Still got him killed when his opponent just walked across the map and A-moved into his forces.
While I do think more KeSPA guys will trend upwards over the coming year, I don't think we'll see anything dramatically different out of them.
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On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in.
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I like when they take thing slow when balancing the game. Also agree with him when he said he want to balance the game by balance the map first.
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On November 09 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:59 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. But you are a professional player? Well, if he is a low GM on Korean ladder like he 'claims', he is one of the top 200 players in the world. And maybe even higher than that since a lot of players have multiple accounts. But I really doubt it since he called all the eSF players bad and not innovate and put the Kespa players on a pedestal. His remarks about innovator shows that he didn't really understand the progaming scene. A lot of the 'builds' we saw in BW did not just come from the S Class players. S Class players had both the mechanics and the innovation. But a lot of B teamers were just as innovative but lacked the mechanics.
Low GM on Korean ladder from Canada. NobodyImportant must be on par with Huk and Scarlett then
And of course, with 120apm.
Right...
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I wish Blizzard were in contact with the starcraft intelligentsia because they seem to lack a comprehensive understanding of the game in Anaheim.
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On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season?
lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments?
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. lol. You're obviously not GM on Korean server. Show some credentials or don't mention it at all.
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What are the pros in the private pros-only forums saying I wonder.
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On November 09 2012 02:39 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. lol. You're obviously not GM on Korean server. Show some credentials or don't mention it at all. His name has to be the most ironic thing I've ever seen....
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my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ?
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On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? No ground unit can reach Infestors beneath BLs without being drown in an endless sea of Broodlings, and that's the end of story.
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On November 09 2012 02:34 openbox1 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:10 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:59 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. But you are a professional player? Well, if he is a low GM on Korean ladder like he 'claims', he is one of the top 200 players in the world. And maybe even higher than that since a lot of players have multiple accounts. But I really doubt it since he called all the eSF players bad and not innovate and put the Kespa players on a pedestal. His remarks about innovator shows that he didn't really understand the progaming scene. A lot of the 'builds' we saw in BW did not just come from the S Class players. S Class players had both the mechanics and the innovation. But a lot of B teamers were just as innovative but lacked the mechanics. Low GM on Korean ladder from Canada. NobodyImportant must be on par with Huk and Scarlett then And of course, with 120apm. Right...
You actuallty dont need much APM to play protoss. Having 120 APM for GM isnt impossible at all. Either way, i rather believe the result of recent tournament rather then calling all pro protoss player dumb and uninnovative.
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On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in.
are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed.
wow you really are one of the most passiveaggressive guys ive ever seen on this forum and the way you jump onto other people is so immature, come back when ure done with being a teenager please.
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On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ?
Infestors are pretty big so you will need a lot of EMPs. And if your ghosts come from one direction, one fungal can catch them all. Not to mention that most Zerg have their BLs slightly ahead of the infestors which means brood lings will kill the ghosts before EMP can go off. In theory, you can send a squad of ghost to flank the army and get EMPs off. But this means the ghosts will be unprotected and can get killed by lings, etc. the risk is just too higher considering the cost of ghosts when you are already trying to build Vikings, tanks, marines, medivacs.
HTs is even worse to have spread all over the map. They will just get picked off last and right.
Another possibility is drop ships/prisms but once again, they can get fungal. The risk v reward just isn't there for this time of strategy to work consistently. It is like depending on burrow banes to kill marine tank. So, it is great when it works. But you can't really count on it as a core strategy.
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. Can you show us the replays or it didn't happend lol.
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On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private.
Ok you seem to be new to TL, so I am going to break something to you. There is a button on all of your posts called Profile. With it, we can access all previous posts you have made on TL, which I have done and linked below:
Asking how hotkeys work
So I am going to call bull shit to all the stuff you said above. Also, this sentence only barely makes sense:
"not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1"
Normally I would not call attention to it, but you are questioning the intelligence of SC1 players. I don't know what "real intellect" or how to measure it against fake intellect, but it sounds like something so vague it is impossible to argue against. Your further claims that none of the strats in SC2 are innovative because the players were B teamers in SC1, but you just call all of the SC1 players stupid. You offer no real proof to your claim in any way beyond saying that you " wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about."
And then you drop the ulitimate bomb: "I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private".
So I am going to say that we don't need to know who you are, because we know enough to be sure that you should be ignored.
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On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments?
I'd argue that was as much a problem of Blizzard's complete incompetency at map creation as it was a problem with racial balance.
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On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments?
also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments...
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On November 09 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. Ok you seem to be new to TL, so I am going to break something to you. There is a button on all of your posts called Profile. With it, we can access all previous posts you have made on TL, which I have done and linked below: Asking how hotkeys workSo I am going to call bull shit to all the stuff you said above. Also, this sentence only barely makes sense: "not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1" Normally I would not call attention to it, but you are questioning the intelligence of SC1 players. I don't know what "real intellect" or how to measure it against fake intellect, but it sounds like something so vague it is impossible to argue against. Your further claims that none of the strats in SC2 are innovative because the players were B teamers in SC1, but you just call all of the SC1 players stupid. You offer no real proof to your claim in any way beyond saying that you " wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about." And then you drop the ulitimate bomb: "I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private". So I am going to say that we don't need to know who you are, because we know enough to be sure that you should be ignored.
loooool.... busted. Or maybe you can get GM on KR with Protoss without even knowing how to use hotkeys? o.o
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On November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. So you're essentially telling me that whenever you invest into something to damage your opponent, it has to yield some results else you will be at a disadvantage? Well, sorry but this doesn't come to me as a shocking news since it's actually true for all three races. I'm absolutely fed up with Zergs coming and saying they don't have anything worth at tier2 besides the Infestor when you regularly see games won by Zergs with tier2 agression without Infestor, whether it's with Zerglings, Banelings, Roaches, Mutalisks or any combination of the above. And not all of those agressive strategies have to be “all-in”. You're not automatically all-in because you decide to stay on Lair for a while.
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On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ?
It's hard to pull off.
- If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP
It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play.
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On November 09 2012 02:59 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 01:54 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:49 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:42 NobodyImportant wrote:On November 09 2012 01:41 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 01:19 NobodyImportant wrote: Something many of you people are failing to realize is that broodlord/infestor is literally the ULTIMATE zerg composition, it is the END GAME composition of zerg, protoss players these days (I am a low GM on korean server, so I know what I'm talking about) fail to theorycraft protoss END game strats. They feel that since the mothership is an END GAME UNIT, they have an end game composition as long as they have colossus and templar and other expensive units. NO - this is not the case. A protoss END GAME ARMY ideally consists of archons/templar/voidrays/mothership/carrier. A composition that dismantles the zerg END GAME army. Protoss players usually fail to recycle their units to get an end game composition that deals with infestor/broodlord properly. I am a protoss player and my best matchup is PvZ, I have had no trouble (really ever after the neural nurf) with infestors. Early on, the infestor count is so low that they barely able to do anything, spreading your army pretty much nullifies fungal, and colossus or templar nullify infested terrans. Also blinking like 6 stalkers into infestors usually snipes 3-4 of them in the mid game which causes their count to be even lower. Need I say more? Do they play NR30 on the Korean ladder now? Oh, by the way, I am a 4 time GSL Champ. Extremely good contribution to the discussion. Thanks for the great insight. No offense. But your post just reeks of elitism but saying you were Low GM Protoss on Korean server. And that only you had theorycraft the Protoss END game strategy. You then go on about the Protoss being able to do a half dozen things to slow down the Zerg so Protoss can get their ultimate comp out faster than the zergs. But in 95% + of the pro games we see, Zerg has that infestor BL army out before we see that ULTIMATE Protoss comp. why is that? Well lets think of why this is: Claim: 99% of progamers these days (excluding KeSPA players) are not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1 Proof: The progamers of SC2 were B-teamers in SC1, these players were NOT the innovators of sc1 strats and were pretty much a joke to the Code-S players. Hence, these players 'innovative' strats in sc2 are really not that innovative. Now that the KeSPA players (all the code-S players) have switched over to sc2, we will truly see the metagame shift properly. What I'm trying to get at is, most players these days don't really know how to play and just rely on raw mechanics to get them the win, VERY FEW players seriously innovate. I apologize if I showed eliteism with my post, I just wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about. I consider myself an innovator, I have 120apm roughly, consistently being able to beat players with 300+ apm - mainly because I have a very intimate and deep understanding about the protoss matchups - I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private. Ok you seem to be new to TL, so I am going to break something to you. There is a button on all of your posts called Profile. With it, we can access all previous posts you have made on TL, which I have done and linked below: Asking how hotkeys workSo I am going to call bull shit to all the stuff you said above. Also, this sentence only barely makes sense: "not innovators and pretty stupid relative to real intellect and innovation that is required in SC2/thrived in sc1" Normally I would not call attention to it, but you are questioning the intelligence of SC1 players. I don't know what "real intellect" or how to measure it against fake intellect, but it sounds like something so vague it is impossible to argue against. Your further claims that none of the strats in SC2 are innovative because the players were B teamers in SC1, but you just call all of the SC1 players stupid. You offer no real proof to your claim in any way beyond saying that you " wanted to emphasize that I know what I'm talking about." And then you drop the ulitimate bomb: "I know you will ask who I am, but I want to keep my identity private". So I am going to say that we don't need to know who you are, because we know enough to be sure that you should be ignored.
I pulled out my GG button on my Iphone and played it with every voice like 5 times when I read this. Personally, I'm not interested in who you are. There's nothing to gain from hiding your identity if you were actually anything and any good at the game. Which I am going to go out on a limb and say that you are not.
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On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ?
Ghosts are unfortunately not very effective vs Infestors. Fungal outranges EMP, decloaks Ghosts and holds them in place and making them easy targets for zerglings. Even if you manage to EMP Infestors, they are so big that one EMP will only cover a few of them, and you need several EMPs to prevent a full energy Infestor from Fungling. Snipe does good damage, but it's also outranged by Fungal. The main problem, however, is that Ghosts are expensive and even less useful vs most other Zerg units. Snipe isn't strong enough to work well against Ultras and Brood Lords anymore, and at 200/100 it's difficult to get them cost effective or to even justify going down that tech path vs Zerg.
I'm not a Protoss, but Templars essentially have the same problem, except they don't even have a standard attack or cloak, so you can't really spread them out on the map without support without losing them to lings.
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On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments...
It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release.
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8716 Posts
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Maxd11 wrote: He said nothing. Not even close. He acknowledged that infestors see a lot of use and said that blizzard will change any units that need changing. Same as always. hahaha with that knowledge you can work as a spoke person!!
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well for how long is infestor the dominant unit? it has been even before patch for month. I dunno how long they need to see this? The patch made it just extremely easy to get to hive in less than 15 minutes.
When finally everyone is pissed about zerg even pro zerg players like darkforce are bored with zerg meta game, blizzard says lets wait and see a few more month...
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On November 09 2012 03:45 Liquid`NonY wrote: Is this forever?!?!?! This is why he gets paid the big bucks, he asks the questions no one else thinks to ask.
Infestors: Are they forever?
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On November 09 2012 03:45 Liquid`NonY wrote: Is this forever?!?!?! The comment from DB actually reads like "please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ...
That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way.
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On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play. also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks.
On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release. bunker changes
On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or something
On November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. why don't you just win in the lategame instead
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On November 09 2012 04:06 floor exercise wrote:This is why he gets paid the big bucks, he asks the questions no one else thinks to ask. Infestors: Are they forever?
I love this. You made my hour.
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A branded response, but a response nonetheless. A test map should be fun to tinker with in the mean time for WoL.
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Its been around for months, how can dustin browder not realize it?
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On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play. also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks. On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release. bunker changes On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or somethingOn November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. why don't you just win in the lategame instead
It's been almost 6 months since they declared they were gonna approach balance more cautiously and allow the metagame to play out rather than knee-jerk patching anything within a month of lopsided winrates. They've been entirely consistent to this regard thusfar, and it's much better like this than it was before, with a patch every 1-2 months flipping the metagame. As gloomy as the P/TvZ metagame appears they should be applauded for finally taking this approach to balance and sticking to it.
I just realized, I'm fairly liberal IRL and extremely conservative in SC2 -- LOL.
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Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light.
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This is the right approach. If they'd try the approach of nerfing it (with a risk of rendering them obsolete), Zerg goes from really fucking strong to literally never winning. The infestor is too good as it is, but it's such a massive part of the zerg army right now that straight up nerfs may not be able to fix it.
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On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 03:45 Liquid`NonY wrote: Is this forever?!?!?! The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or something There is that saying of "You've got to be one to know one." and this basically means you have to be an expert to recognize an expert. Sometimes this is true and sometimes the exact opposite is true and I feel the "opposite" is true for the balancing process, because Browder and his devs are too involved in daily details and have lost the view for "the big problems".
My opinion of SC2 having a serious problem due to the "unit density" of infantry has only formed slowly, but I doubt they would come up with that since the "unit size" or "units per area" values are not listed anywhere. This IS a problem, because there are too many infantry units in one piece of area. + Show Spoiler +Just try to count how many Marines can stand in the space of a Siege Tank any you basically recognize that there will be a lot more dps incoming to the Siege Tank from a bunch of bio units than the tank deals to the bio units.
A quick test number which isnt specific: - roughly 3-4 Marauders occupy the space of a Siege Tank - roughly 5-6 Marines occupy the space of a Siege Tank
On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote: Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light. Ghosts are also not as versatile as Infestors with their abilities, so by getting lots of Ghosts you dont really get a strong army against anything but Infestors and basically disadvantage yourself against anything else.
On November 09 2012 04:49 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play. also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks. On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release. bunker changes On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or somethingOn November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. why don't you just win in the lategame instead It's been almost 6 months since they declared they were gonna approach balance more cautiously and allow the metagame to play out rather than knee-jerk patching anything within a month of lopsided winrates. They've been entirely consistent to this regard thusfar, and it's much better like this than it was before, with a patch every 1-2 months flipping the metagame. As gloomy as the P/TvZ metagame appears they should be applauded for finally taking this approach to balance and sticking to it. I just realized, I'm fairly liberal IRL and extremely conservative in SC2 -- LOL. Liberal or conservative depends upon the values you are looking at. You are liberal in that you allow stupid and obvious "needs to be fixed" things longer in the game. The problem is that this "we will be more careful with balancing" approach might end up with them not fixing anything anymore either because they are too scared or too lazy to do it. I think they are looking at the wrong targets for fixing SC2 anyways, because its not the units that are the biggest problem, but rather several general mechanics.
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The fact that he is commenting on the infestor in particular means that blizzard already knows that there may be problems. His response is highly neutral because they are not sure what they want to do with it yet and taking a side too early would only bite him in the butt.
That being said, any support unit that is essential for prolonged success in playing a certain race should be changed.in a way that it augments play instead of being a necessity.
Ex. protoss can't hold terran pushes early on without force fields, zerg can't hold protoss pushes without fungal growth.
Especially since these support units are very gas intensive, they severely limit variability in play to he point that a highly variable game such a starcraft can become PREDICTABLE! By changing the roles of these units in gameplay, viewers would experience a much more variable and uninhibited game.
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As a zerg I can say that the Infestor = dominant strategy. The lack of dominant strategy is what keeps starcraft interesting.
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On November 09 2012 05:05 Rabiator wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 03:45 Liquid`NonY wrote: Is this forever?!?!?! The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or something There is that saying of "You've got to be one to know one." and this basically means you have to be an expert to recognize an expert. Sometimes this is true and sometimes the exact opposite is true and I feel the "opposite" is true for the balancing process, because Browder and his devs are too involved in daily details and have lost the view for "the big problems". My opinion of SC2 having a serious problem due to the "unit density" of infantry has only formed slowly, but I doubt they would come up with that since the "unit size" or "units per area" values are not listed anywhere. This IS a problem, because there are too many infantry units in one piece of area. + Show Spoiler +Just try to count how many Marines can stand in the space of a Siege Tank any you basically recognize that there will be a lot more dps incoming to the Siege Tank from a bunch of bio units than the tank deals to the bio units.
A quick test number which isnt specific: - roughly 3-4 Marauders occupy the space of a Siege Tank - roughly 5-6 Marines occupy the space of a Siege Tank On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote: Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light. Ghosts are also not as versatile as Infestors with their abilities, so by getting lots of Ghosts you dont really get a strong army against anything but Infestors and basically disadvantage yourself against anything else. On November 09 2012 04:49 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:17 zhurai wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 09 2012 03:16 SinCitta wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:45 Lephex2.0 wrote: my little diamond thougt is why not use ghosts and mass emp infestors, you mass them anyway, or should mass them in the ultralategame, and use templar spreaded on the map and feedback them ?? Infestor without energy is kinda waste of moeny soo, why nobody does that ? is it not viable ? It's hard to pull off. - If you go bio, you want a tempo game. Your Ghosts are slower than Marines/Marauders, because they don't have stim. So Ghosts get isolated very fast and or your army movement is a lot slower. There is also a lot more unit trading in TvZ than in TvP, so its harder to retain your (expensive) Ghosts after battles. - With biomech, you often do not have much gas to spend or many baracks with a tech lab. Your army is a lot slower so you won't get many oppurtunities to get your Ghosts behind the enemy army to EMP the Infestors. - There is a high risk that Ghosts don't hit the EMP on the spellcasters. Against Protoss, you can at least EMP other stuff to remove the shields, but Ghosts vs Zerg have a single purpose. Basically, every Terran Ghost MUST kill/disable more than two Infestors during his lifetime to be worthwhile. - Zergs can have much more Infestors than a Protoss can have templars. - Infestors clump less than HTs because of their unit size. - Cloak isn't so useful against Zerg, as they have quite sturdy mobile detection and fungal kills cloak as well. Infestors have burrow and are faster than HTs. - and other stuff based on typical unit maneuvering differences in TvZ and TvP It's not impossible, e.g. Gumiho did it when he was on fire with his bio play. But you need to be already ahead and it is a very unforgiving type of play. also without tanks you're liable to a ling bane muta all-in (more on the banes), that could just kill you if you don't have tanks. On November 09 2012 03:43 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 03:05 tripper688 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:38 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 09 2012 02:20 tripper688 wrote:On November 08 2012 11:28 Lunareste wrote:On November 08 2012 11:26 Wombat_NI wrote:On November 08 2012 11:05 XXXSmOke wrote: Right Approach.
Bad Timing.
BL/Infestor has been strong for well over a year.
It should not take that long to figure that its imbalanced. A year of Z's having extremely good results that I am sure if you did the stats of mass infestor would be in 95% of those games.
Its a good approach if they apply this after a couple of months, like they did when the Z Queen and creep problems were happening.
Sorry Blizz BL/Infestor already made deep impacts on the overall shittyness and how stale the game has become. Fix it now, but next time quicker.
Timing is pretty sensible, I mean their flagship WCS finals are pretty soon right? Would be pretty harsh on the Zerg that made it to throw such a potentially huge nerf into the mix just before that It was pretty harsh to buff the queen and overlord just before a GSL season started, too. Didn't stop them. lol...how bout changing barracks to cc -> supply -> rax in the middle of a GSL season? lol... how abut releasing the game which required about 20 major nerfs to terran and about 10 major nerfs to protoss to be about balanced ? How abut denying for 2 years that terran can blindly build whatever he want with 0 scouting and never get in trouble and dominate all major tournaments? also, what does that have to do with the timing of balance patches in regards to tournaments... It means that timing of terrans nerfs was always about 1 year late since release. bunker changes On November 09 2012 04:07 Rabiator wrote:The comment from DB actually reads like " please let there be some new OP thing next month so I dont have to do anything, please please please" ... That is really strengthening my belief that he has no clue how to "read and judge" the game he is supposed to balance and doesnt look at it the right way. also they change the way they like to balance every few months or somethingOn November 09 2012 02:56 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 02:30 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:38 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 01:33 TheDwf wrote:On November 09 2012 01:30 Bluerain wrote: then ppl complain that not only is it good in every matchup but that its good in mass and in any situation. maybe thats cus the zerg race is so bland and theres no other good tier 2 options other than infestors. Love Zergs trying to spread this fallacy. Meanwhile, you see people like DRG or Leenock win with constant tier2 agression against Terran or Protoss, whether it's Mutalisk or Roach-based. Guess that's your so-called “lack of other good tier2 options,” eh? So you want a game that is built around midgame all-ins? Meanwhile u see terrans like MVP and taeja win constantly against infestor play. Where exactly did I speak about “all-ins”? But this sure shows something about the average Zerg mindset that you relate tier2 agression with all-in. are you insane? in order to make a midgame tier army composition viable a zerg has to do damage or he will get trashed. why don't you just win in the lategame instead It's been almost 6 months since they declared they were gonna approach balance more cautiously and allow the metagame to play out rather than knee-jerk patching anything within a month of lopsided winrates. They've been entirely consistent to this regard thusfar, and it's much better like this than it was before, with a patch every 1-2 months flipping the metagame. As gloomy as the P/TvZ metagame appears they should be applauded for finally taking this approach to balance and sticking to it. I just realized, I'm fairly liberal IRL and extremely conservative in SC2 -- LOL. Liberal or conservative depends upon the values you are looking at. You are liberal in that you allow stupid and obvious "needs to be fixed" things longer in the game. The problem is that this "we will be more careful with balancing" approach might end up with them not fixing anything anymore either because they are too scared or too lazy to do it. I think they are looking at the wrong targets for fixing SC2 anyways, because its not the units that are the biggest problem, but rather several general mechanics.
Conservative in the sense I feel the solutions to SC2's problems should come from player's innovating or new maps. Blizzard coming in and patching should be a last resort after theres no questions left as to whether or not a specific feature is entirely broken and unsolveable in a given metagame.
Literally within the same paragraph where they promised to restrain immediately patching, they said they'd work towards a solution if none can be found. It's just not coming as fast as people want. They're giving me the exact opposite impression -- that they aren't going to cave in to community outrage over balance out of fear. Which is, good in some ways and bad in others. And they certainly aren't lazy, just very cautious, and busy with HotS.
As for the problem with the mechanic, the mechanic only appears fundamentally broken because this metagame has evolved to allow Zerg to mass infestors so freely, where they never did as much pre-queen patch. I wouldn't jump the gun on fixing zerg as a whole before a balance patch that tones down infestors/and or Zerg's ability to turtle to late game. Reverting the queen and giving better options to pressure the third might be all it takes. The queen buff pretty much started this massive metagame swing to turtle zerg anyways.
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Increase the range of Snipe? Aren't Ghosts supposed to counter Infestors by design? It changes HT's a little bit, but just forces them to make Archons or split their HT's up thus breaking up the deathball, so, win/win. Shit, make the range on snipe like 12 with a cast time. Makes it more like sniping anyway, and makes Ghosts fill that Assassin class role. I guess that doesn't deal with 24 Infestor compositions though...just stop fungal from snaring massive units, then play skyterran?
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It's been common knowledge for months now that the Infestor is basically GODMODE for Zerg. I guess on the bright side, it's better now than never that Dustin finally realized this.
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Just to throw a bit of criticism at the community, there are so many voluminous whingers (on b.net, but also on liquid) that Blizzard absolutely needs to have a thick skin and take their time with regard to balance patches, because otherwise they can't be sure whether or not they're just being influenced by people emotionally invested in seeing P or T beat Z (or vice versa). It seems like a very unhealthy dynamic, to be honest.
If the infestor needs changing, it will be changed. Seems okay to me.
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Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great.
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On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great.
Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed.
Just something to consider.
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On November 09 2012 05:37 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: It's been common knowledge for months now that the Infestor is basically GODMODE for Zerg. I guess on the bright side, it's better now than never that Dustin finally realized this.
they are bound to realize is sooner or later, when they see former code s players losing to average zergs in the "highest" competetive league.
Zerg used to be about decision making, there nothing of that anymore because everything a zerg does is perfectly safe until lategame and this always with an huge economic advantage in a standard game were both side don't do major mistakes.
it just took 2 guys (DRG, Stefano) to make a formerly "UP UP UP" balance whiniest race to the strongest, just by using what they had instead of just hitting their head at a wall. It just shows that all the nerfs other races got due to Zerg beeing supposed to be weak. wrong.
mass roaches, speedlng, roach midgame, fast 3 hatches all were possible even at the beginning of sc2 (on semi decent maps)
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On November 09 2012 05:54 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great. Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed. Just something to consider.
Ah, good point.
It's really too bad HT can't counter infestor that easily. back then when before the NP nerf i thought the game was looking great (well it wasn't terrible) because HT > infestor, colossus > hydra, and stargate > spire while spire > colossus, infestor/hydra > stargate, roach > HT, but too bad doesn't seem HT actually counters infestor
Perhaps making immortal and infestor size smaller and/or making EMP slightly bigger? I sort of liked Blizz when they balanced things more frequently. It was more fun Well may be something in between what they did then and now would be good... though of course the other main reason why they aren't taking action yet is probably because they're still working on HotS and any changes to WoL might force them to just backtrack their work on HotS.
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On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote: Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light.
This is exactly why I don't understand why they had to nerf it, and why so many Zerg players were complaining that mass ghosts were OP. They require a lot of control to actually be useful, far more than Infestors do. Yet snipe was nerfed quickly and infestors are still unchanged...
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On November 09 2012 06:15 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 04:58 1raxexpand wrote: Infestors are not comparable to ghost snipe however (granted that both are pretty OP). Ghost snipes are a lot more APM intensive, and also beside Mvp who actually used snipes with success. Where as many zergs can mass infestors and play brood/infestors perfectly. From the spectator point of view, mass snipes look pretty fun too. I feel the nerf was way too hard. Maybe 30 + bonus to light. This is exactly why I don't understand why they had to nerf it, and why so many Zerg players were complaining that mass ghosts were OP. They require a lot of control to actually be useful, far more than Infestors do. Yet snipe was nerfed quickly and infestors are still unchanged...
reason is simple, snipe kills quickly there it is way more clear (flashy) that it is op due to abuse. Fungal doesn't kill as quickly, therefore doesn't seem as op in comparision, however it is of course still OP as fuck.
just because it doesn't kill everything immediatly doesn't mean its weak/balanced, it is by far the strongest spell in the game. Whats funny is that Zerg is already the most mobile spell, you would think that if one race needed a "stunning" spell it would be protoss to keep the others from running away.
When does Zerg has this problem with +4 Speed on Roaches on creep, +4 Speed on Speedlings of creep?
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On November 09 2012 06:06 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 05:54 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great. Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed. Just something to consider. Ah, good point. It's really too bad HT can't counter infestor that easily. back then when before the NP nerf i thought the game was looking great (well it wasn't terrible) because HT > infestor, colossus > hydra, and stargate > spire while spire > colossus, infestor/hydra > stargate, roach > HT, but too bad doesn't seem HT actually counters infestor Perhaps making immortal and infestor size smaller and/or making EMP slightly bigger? I sort of liked Blizz when they balanced things more frequently. It was more fun Well may be something in between what they did then and now would be good... though of course the other main reason why they aren't taking action yet is probably because they're still working on HotS and any changes to WoL might force them to just backtrack their work on HotS.
The current EMP radius was established with TvP in mind, I think it was a .5 reduction in total AoE to 1.5 so I am not sure a .25 or some similar change would be worth it, or worth the affect on TvP (that would likely be minimal) Perhaps they'll play with it on the test map.
My favorite proposed change at the moment is no snare (replaced with slow) on massive units, and the supply change. I personally have been down right shocked at how big infestor clouds have gotten at the highest level.
MMA did some cheeky stuff with unsieged tanks (Picking them up in Medivacs and moving them around to snipe infestors,), while effective and cute it was extremely contextual (i.e. infestors weren't at critical mass). The opportunity cost versus risk is too high for both Terran and Protoss attempting to use tanks or Immortals to do this, and HT drops I would wager have higher utility all round. Interesting, fun play from MMA if you hadn't seen it regardless.
Link to play from IPL Top Five + Show Spoiler +
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On November 09 2012 06:23 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:06 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On November 09 2012 05:54 ThomasjServo wrote:On November 09 2012 05:49 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Although it will mess with the EMP/Storm/Snipe/Feedback dynamics, perhaps buffing Snipe and Feedback range will help things out (So that snipe and feedback can easily outrange fungal, while snipe is still longer range than feedback ). This will make storming ghosts less effective -- it'll make EMPing HT less effective too, but they could buff the snipe even more so that terran can deal with HT/colossus easier lategame.
There are many ways they can fix the game, i know they can do it but in their slow fashion, but that's fine.
Be patient, i'm sure the final product will be great. Fungal and Feedback both have the same range at range 9, and EMP and Snipe are range 10. So not sure on how that would work. Essentially the range would have to almost out do the sight of the unit, which is something to take into consideration with the changes you proposed. Just something to consider. Ah, good point. It's really too bad HT can't counter infestor that easily. back then when before the NP nerf i thought the game was looking great (well it wasn't terrible) because HT > infestor, colossus > hydra, and stargate > spire while spire > colossus, infestor/hydra > stargate, roach > HT, but too bad doesn't seem HT actually counters infestor Perhaps making immortal and infestor size smaller and/or making EMP slightly bigger? I sort of liked Blizz when they balanced things more frequently. It was more fun Well may be something in between what they did then and now would be good... though of course the other main reason why they aren't taking action yet is probably because they're still working on HotS and any changes to WoL might force them to just backtrack their work on HotS. The current EMP radius was established with TvP in mind, I think it was a .5 reduction in total AoE to 1.5 so I am not sure a .25 or some similar change would be worth it or the affect on TvP (that would likely be minimal) Perhaps they'll play with it on the test map. My favorite proposed change at the moment is no snare on massive units, and the supply change. I have been down right shocked at how big infestor clouds have gotten at the highest level. MMA did some cheeky stuff with unsieged tanks (Picking them up in Medivacs and moving them around to snipe infestors,), while effective and cute it was extremely contextual. The opportunity cost versus risk is too high for both Terran and Protoss attempting to use tanks or Immortals to do this, and HT drops I would wager have higher utility all round. Interesting, fun play from MMA if you hadn't seen it regardless. Link to play from IPL Top Five+ Show Spoiler +http://youtu.be/Lcti7N5Zuo0?t=2m4s
Oh man those finals against DRG, some of the sickest drop play I've ever seen. Won him the 5th and 7th game. Surprised we don't see terrans just go "I'm a muthafucking badass" and send 2 medivacs full of tanks around the side.
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its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011.
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On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011.
Hype plays a huge role, there was a similar quick turn around if memory serves, with blue flame hellions after the Slayers team showed off just how good that unit is TvZ.
Looking at liquipedia it was MLG Anaheim 2011, where they really took off as a TvZ staple.
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On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011.
It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this.
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I think they should wait a month or two to balance anything that seems unbalanced for exactly the reasons given. There was a while in early WoL when Mutalisks looked overpowered but they ended up being fine once proper methods to defend against them were developed, then the metagame shifted away from them and they cemented their niche. Totally par for the course (most of the time).
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browder fail. if they had a more solid matchraft understanding of the underlying game, it'd be obvious that infestors are OP'd. units are supposed to have a range of good and bad matchups; and infestors have good matchups vs faaaar too many units; because they have far too much flexibility as a caster. when spellcasters are too flexible, they can all too easily become god units; with very few regular units being made at all. while not quite at that point, infestors are dangerously high; becasue their spells are useful in too many situations; it's better if a caster is good vs some things, but decidedly weak vs others.
and it's wlel known that when things change; communities often take a while to fully take advantage of them; which is why a good understanding of the underlying math helps. it doesn't mean things weren't overpowered when you changed them; it just means people didn't instantly change all their well-practiced builds to use them.
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On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this.
....but this is why its sooo ironic. Half a year? do you hear yourself? If any unit deserves a knee jerk patch its the infestor. Not only is it powerful in its own right it can handle 70% of enemy unit compositions by itself. Do you know how much qq we would have if the high templar had such stats?
Uber Templar
Pros Storm now roots, detects, damage nerfed in favor of being able to chain, no research needed anymore HT can now cloak for free but speed is movement reduced Movement speed increased hp increased can now mind control temporarily new spell, warp in 100 hp uber slow stalker with 5 range and 18 Dps for 50 energy(same as 2 infested terrans)
Cons cost 50 more minerals
I would take this any day
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On November 09 2012 07:19 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. ....but this is why its sooo ironic. Half a year? do you hear yourself? If any unit deserves a knee jerk patch its the infestor. Not only is it powerful in its own right it can handle 70% of enemy unit compositions by itself. Do you know how much qq we would have if the high templar had such stats? Uber Templar Pros Storm now roots, detects, damage nerfed in favor of being able to chain, no research needed anymore HT can now cloak for free but speed is movement reduced Movement speed increased hp increased can now mind control temporarily new spell, warp in 100 hp uber slow stalker with 5 range and 18 Dps for 50 energy(same as 2 infested terrans) Cons cost 50 more minerals I would take this any day
The difference is that other zerg units are mundane, whereas protoss has multiple spellcasters, multiple sources of late game AoE, cloaked harassment, high hp, and a hero unit. Zerg has all of these utilities shoved into one unit so it only takes one tech building to acquire, and the semblance of overpoweredness.
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On November 09 2012 07:19 SuperYo1000 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. ....but this is why its sooo ironic. Half a year? do you hear yourself? If any unit deserves a knee jerk patch its the infestor. Not only is it powerful in its own right it can handle 70% of enemy unit compositions by itself. Do you know how much qq we would have if the high templar had such stats? Uber Templar Pros Storm now roots, detects, damage nerfed in favor of being able to chain, no research needed anymore HT can now cloak for free but speed is movement reduced Movement speed increased hp increased can now mind control temporarily new spell, warp in 100 hp uber slow stalker with 5 range and 18 Dps for 50 energy(same as 2 infested terrans) Cons cost 50 more minerals I would take this any day
There isn't complete certainty whether or not the infestor's strength is due to zerg's place in the metagame being able to turtle and mass them, or a broken unit that must be fixed. Very few if anyone has the foresight to know this, and the people who like to think they do are usually biased. Which is why it's much safer to let the metagame play out for several months and see if the pros can solve it on their own before resorting to the most extreme solution which is altering the game entirely with a patch. The infestor is probably broken, but only because of the state of the metagame, which means a direct nerf to the infestor isn't the only possible solution.
Have you heard YOURSELF -- or for that matter, seen the state of ZvP in broodwar <2007? Unless winrates spiral out of control (which they haven't and won't) they'll take their time putting together the correct solution (not ANY solution). It's a godsend that Blizzard has slowed down the patches recently. Thank god they stopped caving into community members like you.
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If zerg are getting nerfed when we have players like MVP and Rain winning everything I'm just going to switch race, why balance a game around mediocre players whining?
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There are so many idiots around here.... why are people complaining about infestors in particular when thats what the game mechanics/ hotkey mechanics / smartcasting / race mechanics/unit movement of sc2 gives us; very powerful casters....
people are incredibly narrowminded.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On November 09 2012 08:04 NEEDZMOAR wrote: There are so many idiots around here.... why are people complaining about infestors in particular when thats what the game mechanics/ hotkey mechanics / smartcasting / race mechanics/unit movement of sc2 gives us; very powerful casters....
people are incredibly narrowminded.
Because this only started happening recently following the queen patch? You'd think Blizzard would have hired you on the spot with your brilliant insight. What solution would you propose -- revert SC2 to BW? lol.
yeah, people are incredibly narrowminded idiots because their first thought about the infestor wasn't, 'sc2 is too easy.'
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United States3648 Posts
On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. History goes back further than the last six months. Blizzard, after buffing the queen for no reason and sending Terran winrates into the toilet, suddenly saying "from now on we have decided that we are no longer going to make hasty balance changes to the game" even though the brood lord/infestor doom army problem has persisted in two matchups a long time, is not only a random stance reversal (there's another word for this) but also not even in keeping with their randomly declared new stance on balance changes. This isn't snipe or blue flame or khaydarin amulet. Everyone with a brain knows Protoss has to say a prayer and hope their vortexes are good to have a chance, and even then often lose even when the vortexes are good, and everyone with a brain also knows that Terran has to dance on a razor's edge to beat that army because of how insanely unforgiving it is if you get hit by even one money fungal. And it's been like this for month after month.
Blizzard is either wrong or they're wrong, you just have to pick the reason.
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I didn't see anyone mention this yet, but couldn't you change fungal so it both restricts micro & encourages micro? Have it be timed, you cast it, a pool of spores forms on the ground, there's a delay, then the snare. Wouldn't something like that fix all the complaints?
This would make fast moving units a pretty good counter to fungals, perhaps fungal itself would need a duration or damage buff to compensate.
I'm hoping it's changed to something like this as it would be fun to watch.
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On November 09 2012 08:17 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. History goes back further than the last six months. Blizzard, after buffing the queen for no reason and sending Terran winrates into the toilet, suddenly saying "from now on we have decided that we are no longer going to make hasty balance changes to the game" even though the brood lord/infestor doom army problem has persisted in two matchups a long time, is not only a random stance reversal (there's another word for this) but also not even in keeping with their randomly declared new stance on balance changes. This isn't snipe or blue flame or khaydarin amulet. Everyone with a brain knows Protoss has to say a prayer and hope their vortexes are good to have a chance, and even then often lose even when the vortexes are good, and everyone with a brain also knows that Terran has to dance on a razor's edge to beat that army because of how insanely unforgiving it is if you get hit by even one money fungal. Blizzard is either wrong or they're wrong, you just have to pick the reason.
They're breaking all precedence, a complete 180 on their 'historical' form of balancing, and patching slowly. Hopefully for as long as SC2 exists (probably not during first year of HotS/LotV but hopefully afterwards). No, the broodlord/infestor composition was never like it was now, where Zerg takes a free third and turtles to 12 minute hives.
Top terrans winrates: virtually unaffected.
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Maybe a year from now he'll hear whispers about the colossus being boring .
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On November 09 2012 08:24 rd wrote:
Top terrans winrates: virtually unaffected.
GSL win rate tvz 36% Unaffected you say 20% terrans in gm and 22% in masters compared to a solid double (42 and 40%) zergs. Yep, everything seems perfectly close to 50%.
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Jesus we're just asking them to make it harder to do not completely remove the combo of the two...
You know why EMP was nerfed? Because it was too good and too easy to use. They made it more difficult and now it's alot more balanced than it was before.
Know what immortals recieved a buff to combat the 1-1-1? Because it was too easy to complete and too powerful. So they made the timing alot weaker with a few buffs/nerfs. It's still in the game, it's still powerful. But it's both easier to beat and not a near-guarenteed win.
Do the freaking same with infestor/broodlord. Make it a bit weaker, make it a bit easier to beat. That's all you need to do, there doesnt have to be a "well it's 50-50 hurrrrrrr........" discussion, you just need to use your head. You make fungal have a lower range, or make infestors cost more supply so there is less room for other units. Or you do SOMETHING to make it so that brood/infestor is not the "end-all".
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On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game.
What makes you classify infestor as a support caster? Lookin at the abilities, it doesn't seem to be aimed towards support, more like core.
Also, I believe blizzard has come out and said that infestors are a core zerg unit in the late game.
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I am bored by PvZ.
Immortal sentry vs good or bad 3 base infestor roach ling after super passive FFE. Derp. What makes RTS somewhat exciting is the strategy part. This is like fencing...who deals the better blow immortal sentry or the infestor roach?
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On November 09 2012 08:36 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. What makes you classify infestor as a support caster? Lookin at the abilities, it doesn't seem to be aimed towards support, more like core. Also, I believe blizzard has come out and said that infestors are a core zerg unit in the late game.
Casters have always been meant to be support/utility units for ur army. They were never meant to be your core army structure.
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On November 09 2012 08:01 MayZerG_UK wrote: If zerg are getting nerfed when we have players like MVP and Rain winning everything I'm just going to switch race, why balance a game around mediocre players whining? So Rain won MLG? oh wait, he didn't. It was Leenock.
One player simply isn't enough to conclude: everything is fine.
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On November 08 2012 09:17 Jetaap wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Buuuut you miss the point it's all about those numbers >_<. As long as winrates are in the 45-55% range it's all good, doesn't matter if the game is terrible.
zvz finals everywhere lowers the watchers by a HUGE amount, i for example watched not even MLG final because of zvz ... and THATS makes the game terrible
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On November 09 2012 08:48 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:01 MayZerG_UK wrote: If zerg are getting nerfed when we have players like MVP and Rain winning everything I'm just going to switch race, why balance a game around mediocre players whining? So Rain won MLG? oh wait, he didn't. It was Leenock. One player simply isn't enough to conclude: everything is fine.
actually Life won the MLG.....
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I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins.
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United States3648 Posts
On November 09 2012 08:57 Severus_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:48 Hryul wrote:On November 09 2012 08:01 MayZerG_UK wrote: If zerg are getting nerfed when we have players like MVP and Rain winning everything I'm just going to switch race, why balance a game around mediocre players whining? So Rain won MLG? oh wait, he didn't. It was Leenock. One player simply isn't enough to conclude: everything is fine. actually Life won the MLG..... Yup, Leenock only won the one before that.
And DRG the one before that.
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On November 09 2012 08:43 plgElwood wrote: I am bored by PvZ.
Immortal sentry vs good or bad 3 base infestor roach ling after super passive FFE. Derp. What makes RTS somewhat exciting is the strategy part. This is like fencing...who deals the better blow immortal sentry or the infestor roach?
you dont have to open ffe every game... you can open 1 base... and dont say its bad. it usually is bad-ish. but not all strategies are created equal. everyone is looking for the strategy that gives them the best chance to win. before WG nerf, it was 4 gate. you can still 4 gate. or hell, do a 3 gate pressure while expanding. you dont just have to ffe every game. it is the best build for protosses at the moment, but if you want variety, you have variety. you can also open stargate. or open dt. do blink all in, immortal all in. heavy sentry warpgate all in. archon zealot. what you're describing is standard play... because its standard. you can deviate from the norm. you might get some silly losses but then again, you might figure it out and like something. And its always fun to change it up. sometimes i go 2 base muta in zvt just to change it up from the 3 base muta or infestor builds.
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On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins.
Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ.
The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand.
The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG)
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On November 09 2012 08:48 Hryul wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:01 MayZerG_UK wrote: If zerg are getting nerfed when we have players like MVP and Rain winning everything I'm just going to switch race, why balance a game around mediocre players whining? So Rain won MLG? oh wait, he didn't. It was Leenock. One player simply isn't enough to conclude: everything is fine.
1st and second place were zergs. then lets look at 3rd through 8th place. 2 of them were protoss and the other were terran. just because two zergs made it to the finals doesnt mean anything. next mlg we might have a tvt or a tvp or a pvp or have a zerg in a match up. theres only 3 races... theres not much diversity in the matchups we can get. so yes, there will be a mirror match up. anyways life is probably one of the best players on the planet right now. he just won gsl and just won mlg back to back. thats no surprise. and leenock is always solid. hell, flash beat life earlier in mlg. i dont see the problem with the current situation. its just the people in the community want buffs and feel like the other races need nerfs. learn to play, study the game, and get good. until you're grandmaster, stop complaining.
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On November 09 2012 08:53 CoR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:17 Jetaap wrote:On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. Buuuut you miss the point it's all about those numbers >_<. As long as winrates are in the 45-55% range it's all good, doesn't matter if the game is terrible. zvz finals everywhere lowers the watchers by a HUGE amount, i for example watched not even MLG final because of zvz ... and THATS makes the game terrible Quoted for truth. I'm not one to bitch and whine about having same races in the finals exclusively, as I actually ENJOYED GomTvT as a protoss player, but that's because TvT is actually interesting to watch.
But as of this season's gsl, I've changed my stance from being neutral, and believing that the better player would always win, to simply wishing that zerg didn't exist. I've ceased watching all zerg matchups; the blatant unfairness of the late game just puts me on tilt far too much. After watching so many games of "NICE FUNGALS!!!" take back the game from an impossible position, against terran/protoss players who played much better, I would be kidding myself if I still think that the better player wins.
Broodlord-infestor is a pathetic joke, a humiliation for Starcraft 2, a insane disaster that kills interest in E-sports. Yes, I am basing all these upon my own opinions when watching the composition in tournaments. But so what? Do the zerg supporters actually ENJOY seeing a money fungal land, then broodlings flying in and ripping everything apart, and then spamming a million infested terrans as free meatshields that deal insane damage to end the game? Because besides Leenock, that's what every single zerg does. Even Life, who was formerly celebrated for his intriguing and highly entertaining early-midgame strategies.
Also, there's the matter of "NICE FUNGALS!!!". The skill disparity required to "pull off' a "nice fungal" verses the supposedly OP-Snipes that only Mvp was able to pull off, and also the marine splits that terrans are supposed to be able to do in order to minimize the effect really puzzles me. How can zergs say "l2 split" when all they need to do in order to land a money fungal is 2 simple actions? This really boggles my mind to no end.
Also, don't give me the "other zerg units are lousy" bullshit. Mutalisks are quite likely the best harassing units in the game bar none. Roaches, while infamously "supply inefficient", don't even need to be supply efficient in the midgame due to zerg production capabilities powering past both terran and protoss. Banelings are extremely cost and supply efficient, while requiring lots of skill to hit, so that's an example of a zerg unit done right. Hydras are simply lousy, I'll give you that. Broodlords however, are another slice of the bullshit-pie. Restricting micro along with fungal, they form the ultimate partners in crime pair in the entire game.
I'm sorry, but at this point, if infestor-broodlord isn't somehow altered, any zerg matchup is unwatchable, unless you love seeing zergs rip apart opposing armies at no cost, or costing only energy. Infested terrans+fungal root+ broodlings for the win.
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On November 09 2012 09:44 Aurrora wrote: hell, flash beat life earlier in mlg. It sure gives Terran some hope. “Look, you can defeat Zergs if they're kind enough to give you 10 Infestors.”
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On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG)
ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings.
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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote: ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. Love the confidence with which people say that despite barely having more data than Mvp crushing inferior Zergs (sometimes after vastly outplaying them in midgame). I, on the other hand, remember a ForGG vs Leenock game on Daybreak in which ForGG tried to mass Ghosts too but horribly failed due to his Ghost squad being caught in a Fungal and subsequently dying. So much for the “unbeatable mass Ghosts”.
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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. Have you ever watched a high level lategame PVZ? Nobody can get enough Feedbacks off. Nobody. We can't make 35 HTs the same way you make 35 Infestors. It's just not viable.
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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote: ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. If this works, do you really think we'd see such performances from terran and protoss pros at the highest levels against zerg? The key here is that before ghosts and high templars can get close to use their spells on the infestors, broodlords WILL kill them. And there's a ton of ways to see it coming. You can spot templars so easily, there isn't even any argument about it. Creepd spread, overlords and overseers will all see the high templar coming, and they WILL get one-shotted by the broodlord cloud.
As for ghosts, they aren't even a practical solution. They have no other purpose except for emping infestors. If you don't pull if off, it was wasted supply that could have been a few more vikings to make the difference versus corruptor-broods. Again, there are so many ways to see it coming, and you need so many ghosts to do it against many infestors, thanks to their annoyingly and illogically large collision size.
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I hate watching pro games because of infestors, but as far as playing against them... I can't think of anything I lose to less than infestor based play. When I hear infestor is OP, I either assume they mean infestor hard counters their style or they're referring to when you allow zerg to get way too many minerals, and they have a lot of infestors and broodlords and prob deserve the game, anyways. I do think the infestor serves too many roles, and when I watch t vs z it does seem imbalanced. As for my games, just keep not making mutas/banelings. Make all the infestors you want. They're really good units to be feared, at least so I hear.
When everyone pretty much plays copy cat, it's hard to really know what is imbalanced or not from what simply counters the style of the majority.
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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings.
Well I don't really think that ravens are the answer, they take too long to switch into, and aren't the best way to deal with BL. What happens if they ultra switch, what are your Ravens going to do, fly around and cast some auto turrets (which do nothing to Ultras?)
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On November 09 2012 09:54 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. Have you ever watched a high level lategame PVZ? Nobody can get enough Feedbacks off. Nobody. We can't make 35 HTs the same way you make 35 Infestors. It's just not viable. You could make 60 HTs and still fail to Feedback more than 5 Infestors anyway. People need to realize that Broodlords spawn a living shield which prevents ground units from reaching Infestors beneath. The only ground unit that may safely blast Infestors from afar is the Siege Tank; pity it has to be microed each shot else it is busy killing itself (or other units in front) thanks to the endless stream of Broodlings.
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On November 09 2012 09:59 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. Well I don't really think that ravens are the answer, they take too long to switch into, and aren't the best way to deal with BL. What happens if they ultra switch, what are your Ravens going to do, fly around and cast some auto turrets (which do nothing to Ultras?)
While Ravens aren't good vs ultras, it doesn't mean they aren't still an incredibly useful unit.
1. You can tech switch to banshee with your existing starports as they've given up air control (otherwise your ravens are still useful at countering air). 2. Harass mineral lines. 3. Kill infestors with seeker. 4. Mass auto turret expansions or even the main base (yes, this actually workers, the mass auto turrets will perform exceptional vs lings and basically the Zerg has to use ultras to get rid of them, which is a huge time sink for pure energy).
I've been going ravens since the game was first released in season 1... never went ghosts because I originally thought they were garbage. I was wrong, but by the time I figured that out I was already used to ravens.
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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings.
There was a way to deal with them, lots and lots of lings. Zergs were thinking it was a good idea to get 20 brood lords and have almost no ling support. People were once again using Ultras poorly and leading with them and making them vulnerable to snipe. Lead with the lings and it wouldn't happen.
Also ghosts are not really an answer because the EMP radius is so small, the Infestors are so big, and the Infestors are in the back.....the ghosts won't even get an EMP off. People get tanks because it is easier and much more efficient than ghosts with EMP.
Finally, transitioning into Ravens is incredibly difficult. Lay down all of the Starports, get all of the upgrades for the Raven alone and have the gas to even make them. Thus lies the next issue.......on most maps it is difficult to secure 5 bases as Terran unless you can split the map in half, and there aren't many bases that allow that.
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On November 09 2012 09:58 playa wrote: I hate watching pro games because of infestors, but as far as playing against them... I can't think of anything I lose to less than infestor based play. When I hear infestor is OP, I either assume they mean infestor hard counters their style or they're referring to when you allow zerg to get way too many minerals, and they have a lot of infestors and broodlords and prob deserve the game, anyways. I do think the infestor serves too many roles, and when I watch t vs z it does seem imbalanced. As for my games, just keep not making mutas/banelings. Make all the infestors you want. They're really good units to be feared, at least so I hear.
When everyone pretty much plays copy cat, it's hard to really know what is imbalanced or not from what simply counters the style of the majority.
When something works at the pro level but doesn't work against you, feel free to assume that it's because your opponents are trash.
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On November 09 2012 09:40 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:43 plgElwood wrote: I am bored by PvZ.
Immortal sentry vs good or bad 3 base infestor roach ling after super passive FFE. Derp. What makes RTS somewhat exciting is the strategy part. This is like fencing...who deals the better blow immortal sentry or the infestor roach?
you dont have to open ffe every game... you can open 1 base... and dont say its bad. it usually is bad-ish. but not all strategies are created equal. everyone is looking for the strategy that gives them the best chance to win. before WG nerf, it was 4 gate. you can still 4 gate. or hell, do a 3 gate pressure while expanding. you dont just have to ffe every game. it is the best build for protosses at the moment, but if you want variety, you have variety. you can also open stargate. or open dt. do blink all in, immortal all in. heavy sentry warpgate all in. archon zealot. what you're describing is standard play... because its standard. you can deviate from the norm. you might get some silly losses but then again, you might figure it out and like something. And its always fun to change it up. sometimes i go 2 base muta in zvt just to change it up from the 3 base muta or infestor builds.
bad ish? well you probably have a better chance to win by saying gg and hoping he just leaves before you then actually winning with a 1 base opening verse zerg
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On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings.
I understand why the ghost nerf was needed and I was only using it as an example to why the infestor should also be nerfed. Getting on even economy with zerg is actually pretty damn hard if they actively spread creep and controling map with lings. You might be fine during the mid game keeping up with econ but once the creep spread start invading your 4th and 5th, it become extremely hard. You cant get both Raven and ghost. Getting both at 12-13 min will completely destroy your army. Raven being high on gas and ghost being high on mineral will eat your army size considerably. Going raven or ghost that early will also cripple any form of map control you have because your army will be too weak to leave base.
This is why you dont see terran getting raven or ghost so early in TvZ because they are generally spending those mineral on hellion to harass or gas on upgrade and medivac for pressure. If you are going raven and ghost that early, it will cripple your army. EMP does hit 5 infestor assuming he bad and clump them, doesnt have overseer and broodling isnt already making a wall, or they get fungaled and killed by broodlord.
So I ask again, why is it okay for zerg to mass infestor and not okay for terran to mass ghost? Saying that ghost counter everything zerg had is the same as infestor countering everything terran has. I could of easily argued that zerg should of played more aggressive so terran couldnt get that mass ghost army.
I am beginning to thing Aurrora is just a troll -.-
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As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
I don't even have to quote more of your post. why don't you just delete it?
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
This wasnt last month. This been considered a balance issue for almost/over 6 month now. And regarding archon, they have a problem getting close to BL because of broodlings and infestors fungal. Regarding Mothership, it was used many time, do you even watch the GSL? It been getting used for over 8 month now to handle the Infestor BL comp but now zerg just split their infestors up and it not that big of an issue. As long as they dont get caught in the vortex then their fine and it not that hard to avoid a super big and slow ship with a short range on vortex. The problem is, is that when zerg complain, they always get the nerf they wanted. So when the other two races voices their opinion they get shunned? Also TvZ generally end in less then 30min to explore raven cause BL generally come out in 16min to end the game.
Major said that the only way to shut this infestor BL thing down was with raven and I agree with him but to get to that point is like such a long stretch that I dont see it being feasible and also it can be lock down with fungal
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On November 09 2012 10:07 shockaslim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 09:50 Aurrora wrote:On November 09 2012 09:43 SheaR619 wrote:On November 09 2012 09:28 Siwelcela wrote: I feel like if people are calling for infestors to be nerfed there is some sense in this claim. Fungal probably shouldnt be a root as thats a little much, but most people keep complaining about how its a support unit that is being masses. Then why not nerf raven as it gets massed in TvZ late game cause of PDD and HSM. It is a caster support unit that many times i have seen 15+ on the field with some other units like vikings and thors dropped in there.
If people want to counter infestors then build infestors/HT's/ghost. Again a support unit that if used correctly can hard counter with storm/feedback/snipe/emp. The key is to not let someone just mass up so much of one thing and if they do counter it. That is how the game works. Its like people complaing in early game that someone is making to many lings/zealot/marines, they all serve generally the same purpose and with enough of them your push wins. Well the infestor problem escalated because of the queen buff. With the queen buff, it was harder to apply pressure and thus lead to faster infestor BL. This lead to mech becoming more standard now because terran realized that it is pointless to apply any sort of pressure with bio units due to the queen + creep spread (mid game tank bio push is dead). So since there no point in applying pressure, the only way to to get a powerful deathball yourself and that is why we been seeing more and more mech in TvZ. The thing with raven is that you must research, and have a large number of them to be effective. While infestor are good in small number as support and once they get large number they just massacre. Comparing Raven to infestor was a poor choice. In my opinion, you should of compare ghost to infestor. Since ghost were support in small number and in large number they massacre just like infestor. Yet they got nerf but infestor are not? I do not understand. If there any justice in this world it would be that infestor are also nerf. In fact, infestor are even WORST since they screw up ZvT and ZvP and snipe was only a factor in TvZ (emp got nerf too but that different spell). One single spell is skewering the ZvP and ZvT matchup while snipe was only messing up TvZ and it still got nerf? I do not understand. The only reason we did not see this problem earlier was because this sort of late game zerg composition before the queen buff was that it was harder to achieved but now that it is pretty noticeable that zerg are doing it with relative ease. The only pressure I see terran do nowaday are banshee hellion pressure. While protoss seems to have lost all hope and is just all-ining a majority of their wins (watch a lot of PvZ at MLG) ghosts got nerfed was because there was no way to deal with ghosts as a zerg player. broodlords get destroyed, ultras get destroyed. in the game where mvp was using ghosts, he was on 4 bases-5 bases. he kept up in econ with the zerg. if you keep up in econ with the zerg (and you can), then getting to ravens isnt too hard. just need to start transition if you see a spire being put down and the hive starting (start scanning at 12-13 minutes if its a good zerg. also, you do have a way to deal with infestor. GHOSTS. 1 emp takes out 4-5 infestors. they can cloak, and can do good harassment damage and scare a broodlord infestor army of not attacking at certain times/lows down our push by dropping nukes where our army would be if we are attacking your 4th. maybe blizzard needs to buff emp? and maybe buff the high templar so they can more effectively deal with infestor? i mean, ht out range infestor and if the infestor has enough mana, it kills the infestor. then theyre made into archon. so i actually think HT is fine. Ghosts, if they tweak emp, and make them cost more gas, then that is your answer. emp all the infestors, have fun with vikings. There was a way to deal with them, lots and lots of lings. Zergs were thinking it was a good idea to get 20 brood lords and have almost no ling support. People were once again using Ultras poorly and leading with them and making them vulnerable to snipe. Lead with the lings and it wouldn't happen. Also ghosts are not really an answer because the EMP radius is so small, the Infestors are so big, and the Infestors are in the back.....the ghosts won't even get an EMP off. People get tanks because it is easier and much more efficient than ghosts with EMP. Finally, transitioning into Ravens is incredibly difficult. Lay down all of the Starports, get all of the upgrades for the Raven alone and have the gas to even make them. Thus lies the next issue.......on most maps it is difficult to secure 5 bases as Terran unless you can split the map in half, and there aren't many bases that allow that.
These are exactly my thoughts.
Seeing as I found Browder replying in a thread, I thought I could see if I could get him to reply to my post as well, although I highly doubt it. This is what I posted on bnet forums anyways, and I await his reply with anticipation:
So Mr. Browder, why not let zergs learn how to deal with ghosts before the ghost nerf? Why not let P's learn how to deal with mech terran (which was nerfed after ONE GAME!!!!!!!! of thorzain with difficulty beating MC with it)?
And so many other examples... why not let meta run its course on those units? Why insta-nerf ghost while letting infestor reign supreme for months? (It doesn't just now "appear overpowered".) I am questioning your consistency.
Furthermore, why doesn't T ever get to be countered? Why doesn't T get a lategame equivalent to mass colossus/templar or infestor/BL/corruptor. P and Z get to blindly spam a sickening combo, when T always has to COUNTER with vikings and ghosts. I want to be able to make BC's or ravens and have Z and P adapt to what I am making.
And with all this said, T is still the race getting the smallest amount of new units for HOTS, and the most boring ones at that.
If nothing changes, I know many T's (and P's too most likely) will keep their hands off HOTS, and I seriously doubt that's something you want to happen.
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts".
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On November 09 2012 08:47 ReachTheSky wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 08:36 mishimaBeef wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. What makes you classify infestor as a support caster? Lookin at the abilities, it doesn't seem to be aimed towards support, more like core. Also, I believe blizzard has come out and said that infestors are a core zerg unit in the late game. Casters have always been meant to be support/utility units for ur army. They were never meant to be your core army structure.
Where does it say casters cannot be designed to be the core army?
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On November 09 2012 10:54 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts".
Altering your style takes a lot of work... maybe the pro players are hoping for a nerf lest they must work harder and modify their styles?
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic
So I guess the Zerg is just going to sit has infestors in the open and let your storm them? Your HTs won't even get in reach before 4-5 brood lings are killing them
Ravens... One of the reasons ravens are so difficult is use is that they can get fungaled before they get in range to cast HSM.
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On November 09 2012 11:08 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 10:54 GolemMadness wrote:On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts". Altering your style takes a lot of work... maybe the pro players are hoping for a nerf lest they must work harder and modify their styles?
Yes, all pro players are lazy and just sit there whining and hoping for nerfs... Sure, they are complaining but I am sure they are trying hard to find a solution as well. Could we say that Zerg players were just lazy and didn't want to find a solution to ghosts? And they just whined to Blizzard?
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On November 09 2012 10:54 GolemMadness wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic Yes, you've solved the problem that no pro player has managed to solve by saying "make high templar and ghosts".
granted, the person you replied to is oversimplifying the situation. i still think a real problem exists where people's gut reaction is that unit XYZ is over/underpowered and needs to be balanced, when a lot of the power of said unit is a result of trending strategy. the game is constantly changing and things that were possible/powerful/situational a year ago are now impossible/weak/standard as a result of this strategy hive mind we call the meta game.
remember ghosts? ghosts were stats-wise the exact same unit for something like 18 months until it become standard to mass ghosts late-game TvZ, at which point they were promptly nerfed into oblivion. who uses ghosts TvZ any more? That's an example of Blizzard being pressured into essentially removing a unit from the game.
people need to be careful about how demanding they are to have things buffed/nerfed. i don't think anyone wants to see the infestor negated completely because diversity of tech choice is a good thing.
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Even if the pros magically figure out how to beat Infestors in the coming months, the problem is that Fungal Growth is completely overpowered from a design standpoint. 9 range, guaranteed 30 (40 vs armor) damage, guaranteed 4 second root, reveals cloak, prevents abilities from being used, and relatively low mana cost. Compare that to Storm for example, which lacks most of these additional built-in bonuses and only deals damage.
As soon as something is hit by FG, those units are gone and will take as many fungals as needed to finish them off together with damage from other Zerg units. The spell is so good it also removes the need for other units entirely, allowing Infestors to work perfectly fine on their own, which is why we often see huge Infestor numbers being built. Once you're fungaled, you're screwed. There is nothing else you can do. The easiest and best way to fix this spell is to change the 100% slow to something more mangable like 60% slow, allowing Protoss and Terran to micro against FG.
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On November 09 2012 11:31 Scila wrote: Even if the pros magically figure out how to beat Infestors in the coming months, the problem is that Fungal Growth is completely overpowered from a design standpoint. 9 range, guaranteed 30 (40 vs armor) damage, guaranteed 4 second root, reveals cloak, prevents abilities from being used, and relatively low mana cost. Compare that to Storm for example, which lacks most of these additional built-in bonuses and only deals damage.
As soon as something is hit by FG, those units are gone and will take as many fungals as needed to finish them off together with damage from other Zerg units. The spell is so good it also removes the need for other units entirely, allowing Infestors to work perfectly fine on their own, which is why we often see huge Infestor numbers being built. Once you're fungaled, you're screwed. There is nothing else you can do. The easiest and best way to fix this spell is to change the 100% slow to something more mangable like 60% slow, allowing Protoss and Terran to micro against FG.
I agree fungal seems kinda screwed up... i can somehow see what they were maybe trying to accomplish though... moving out against a good zerg should be something that you plan... zerg is supposed to be the race that hides in the shadows and if you go looking you gonna be in for trouble...
so yes I agree getting hit by a fungal is bullshit... but, this does create a very real need to scout ahead and plan your engagements... i mean i am sure starship troopers didnt just wander around hoping to kill bugs
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I'm wondering if terrans/protoss are missing a timing to kill off infestors before corruptor/overseer tech is out en masse
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On November 09 2012 10:28 Siwelcela wrote: As stated in the qoute from browder, what will be OP in the next month? when played correctly HT's can take out infestors via storm which melts them. Ravens are hard to switch to but if you have been playing for 30 minutes in game and havent explored all your tech you lose. Ghosts have an energy upgrade that no one uses but would allow for them to cloak emp and even snipe infestors before Z could take them out. They also have great harass abilities due to cloak. Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more.
Remember when all the zergs where screaming "immo sentry all in OP!!!/IMBA."
Now people have figured out a plethora of ways to hold this/cheese this/or just straight up stomp it down.
Also people who dont want to make a bunch of HT's that can storm the f out of zerg and then morph into archons which are almost beast mode against BL infestor make me laugh. O yeah you also have the only hero unit in the game the momaship which also makes BL infestor look like a scrub tatic I'll be nice/take the flamebait and reply point-by-point to this clearly biased, clueless and poorly thought out post.
1) Storm does not "melt" infestors because a) You do not get close enough to storm before broodlords oneshot your hts b) You can walk out of storms 2) Ravens are impossible to tech to thanks to the gas requirements, tech prerequisites and lots and lots of time to pool enough energy. Besides, with how terran is being pressured at all stages to respond to infestor-broods or mutas, you simply have no time and resources to do this. 3) EMP hits like 3 infestors per shot, while the ghosts can be insta-gibbed with broodlord attacks. It also takes multiple EMPs to empty the energy of the infestors. You say cloak, but which semi-decent zerg does not have detection via static-D or overseers? Not to mention. If you see ghosts moving towards you, by all means fungal and split. 4) " Feel like alot of people are making excuses as to why they cant beat it instead of figuring out what will beat it and god forbid having to change a strat or two to make sure you play better and win more" Lol, this is where you are funny. The pros at code S level are lazy are they? They don't change strats huh? All while infestor-broods are the go-to strategy every single game and autowins games unless they make a critical and unlikely mistake (in which case the zerg is a dumbass)? 5) Immo-sentry does not give the protoss player autowin. The only player who can autowin with the all-in is Parting. For everyone else, it's more of a 60% win coin flip, and can clearly be stopped by zergs with enough foresight and bother to scout (with their insanely efficient scouting tools). 6) Storm the f out of zerg, in range of broodlords? Not gonna happen. Archons are fungaled. 7) Mothership. Funny that you even bring this up. For the archon toilet to even work, the following have to occur: a) The zerg makes a critical mistakes and clumps everything up (deserves to lose) b) They have to be idiotic enough to let the mothership approach to the super close range required to cast vortex c) The zerg would be unable to use, did not research, or did not have the presence of mind to use Neural Parasite. d) The zerg would have to be stupid enough to not have fungaled the archons in place, allowing them to move into the toilet.
Really, your arguments are a bunch of biased ideas from a zerg player who clearly has never played other races at a halfway competent level against your own race. It must delight you greatly to use this batshit-insane strategy which requires no skill to use, yet needs so much response, initiative, apm, micro, smart decisions and not to mention luck from your opponent.
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I'm thinking that correct, strategically-mature resource allocation might be an issue.
Examples:
Suppose I have 40 marines... they eat some fungals... it didn't matter if I had 40 marines or 20 marines.
Suppose I am using marine marauder but whenever my army is fighting, there is always a small group at the back (say 2-3 marauders and 4-6 marines) that are never firing in my engagements.
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Does this mean I could have potentially spent those resources in another place? Perhaps anti-broodlord tech?
EDIT:
in short, the effectiveness of a unit does depend on the state of the game (early, mid, late, low-econ game, game with lots of harassment from both side).
The idea is that once a units effectiveness tapers off, you should stop building it. Even though it will add effectiveness to your overall composition, the addition becomes small, possibly negligible.
These timings are hard to figure out. I believe they were figured out exceptionally well in brood war.
In starcraft 2, I believe they have not been figured out for all stages and states of a game.
EDIT2:
although fungal appears broken, i can live in a world where it's known that if they infestor count gets too high the game is harder to win
this might make for exciting stages of a game when it is the infestors that are the targets!
this already exists somewhat... when you face a zerg in a macro game you have to make some moves... sometimes these moves come in the form of killing workers... when you are executing your attack, it is all about zerg defending his drones vs you killing his drones... do you see where i am going with this for infestors?
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On November 09 2012 11:57 mishimaBeef wrote: I'm wondering if terrans/protoss are missing a timing to kill off infestors before corruptor/overseer tech is out en masse I believe the current metagame is "kill zerg before they reach BL/Infestor" as at least Terran as a stronger early/midgame? I hear there does exist a timing where zerg has to sit on gas and minerals while switching to broods, so maybe they're vulnerable then too? I don't think that that balances things out, however, if the conclusion is "if I miss that timing, I lose the game."
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Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game.
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On November 09 2012 12:09 Scootaloo SC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 11:57 mishimaBeef wrote: I'm wondering if terrans/protoss are missing a timing to kill off infestors before corruptor/overseer tech is out en masse I believe the current metagame is "kill zerg before they reach BL/Infestor" as at least Terran as a stronger early/midgame? I hear there does exist a timing where zerg has to sit on gas and minerals while switching to broods, so maybe they're vulnerable then too? I don't think that that balances things out, however, if the conclusion is "if I miss that timing, I lose the game."
i don't mind the whole "if zerg gets too big you lose" mentality... it existed in brood war to some extent
also this can set apart playstyles with some people saying "fuck it, get brood/festor and i will use special tactics"
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 09 2012 12:13 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 12:09 Scootaloo SC2 wrote:On November 09 2012 11:57 mishimaBeef wrote: I'm wondering if terrans/protoss are missing a timing to kill off infestors before corruptor/overseer tech is out en masse I believe the current metagame is "kill zerg before they reach BL/Infestor" as at least Terran as a stronger early/midgame? I hear there does exist a timing where zerg has to sit on gas and minerals while switching to broods, so maybe they're vulnerable then too? I don't think that that balances things out, however, if the conclusion is "if I miss that timing, I lose the game." i don't mind the whole "if zerg gets too big you lose" mentality... it existed in brood war to some extent also this can set apart playstyles with some people saying "fuck it, get brood/festor and i will use special tactics" Zerg didn't get the free pass to the lategame in BW than we're seeing now, and there were a lot more skirmishes/trades and stuff that happened in BW to prevent critical mass maxes being hit. Plus BW was a mechanically harder game anyway, they're not overly comparable.
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The problem I have with the infestor/broodlord composition is that it goes against the essence of the zerg race, a swarming force. So in my opinion it's a game design problem rather than a balance problem. The zerg has become the turtle race instead of a modern zombie race.
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maybe he'll make the sentry and infestor spawn destructible rocks instead of fungal growth and FF.
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If they nerf it at all, just make it three supply, the unit is good, but the problem comes when people have a billion of them.
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On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game.
Oh come on, snipe was ridiculous before and had to be nerfed. I'll agree that snipe was nerfed too much, and should have been somewhere between where it was and where it is now, but you have to be pretty biased to think it was ok before.
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Well, WCS should do it for them, if they are really looking at tournament standings (FFS it's their own tourney)...
Just look at that lopsided race distribution, lololol.
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On November 09 2012 07:59 orBitual wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 07:19 SuperYo1000 wrote:On November 09 2012 06:43 rd wrote:On November 09 2012 06:34 LgNKami wrote: its funny because it has taken them almost a year to see that this is a problem... yet they immediately nerf ghosts not even a week after blizzcon 2011. It's been scarcely 6 months, and they've stated they're going to stop implementing knee-jerk patches -- they've been entirely consistent in this regard thus far. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this. ....but this is why its sooo ironic. Half a year? do you hear yourself? If any unit deserves a knee jerk patch its the infestor. Not only is it powerful in its own right it can handle 70% of enemy unit compositions by itself. Do you know how much qq we would have if the high templar had such stats? Uber Templar Pros Storm now roots, detects, damage nerfed in favor of being able to chain, no research needed anymore HT can now cloak for free but speed is movement reduced Movement speed increased hp increased can now mind control temporarily new spell, warp in 100 hp uber slow stalker with 5 range and 18 Dps for 50 energy(same as 2 infested terrans) Cons cost 50 more minerals I would take this any day The difference is that other zerg units are mundane, whereas protoss has multiple spellcasters, multiple sources of late game AoE, cloaked harassment, high hp, and a hero unit. Zerg has all of these utilities shoved into one unit so it only takes one tech building to acquire, and the semblance of overpoweredness. Zerg have more than one spellcaster as well ... the Queen ... and there was a time when "mass Queen" was a used strategy since they can heal Broodlords and Roaches rather nicely while providing anti-air and ground support themselves MUCH more efficiently than Sentries ever could. Why has "mass Queens" been stopped using? Probably because mass Infestors is much easier to use.
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On November 09 2012 15:05 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game. Oh come on, snipe was ridiculous before and had to be nerfed. I'll agree that snipe was nerfed too much, and should have been somewhere between where it was and where it is now, but you have to be pretty biased to think it was ok before.
No it wasn't, you're the only biased one here.Snipe was perfectly fine and required far more apm than fungal growth spam. And don't act like Terran could build nothing but ghosts and kill everything with them. You still needed marines/tanks/marauders/medivacs/vikings.
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On November 09 2012 15:28 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:05 TechNoTrance wrote:On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game. Oh come on, snipe was ridiculous before and had to be nerfed. I'll agree that snipe was nerfed too much, and should have been somewhere between where it was and where it is now, but you have to be pretty biased to think it was ok before. No it wasn't, you're the only biased one here.Snipe was perfectly fine and required far more apm than fungal growth spam. And don't act like Terran could build nothing but ghosts and kill everything with them. You still needed marines/tanks/marauders/medivacs/vikings.
I don't want to get into a balance debate here. Snipe nerf had nothing to fungal growth so I don't see why you are bringing that up. What I saw was a terran mid teir unit countering every high teir unit zerg had. It was not ok. Snipe needed to be nerfed just like infestors should be nerfed now, don't get me wrong about that.
I also don't see how I am biased given I main protoss. I wonder what race you play...
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I remember back when they had just buffed the infestor to deal with the colossus void ray ball, I played one game, and said,"This will be nerfed." It has been a long time coming.
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On November 09 2012 15:36 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:28 Scila wrote:On November 09 2012 15:05 TechNoTrance wrote:On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game. Oh come on, snipe was ridiculous before and had to be nerfed. I'll agree that snipe was nerfed too much, and should have been somewhere between where it was and where it is now, but you have to be pretty biased to think it was ok before. No it wasn't, you're the only biased one here.Snipe was perfectly fine and required far more apm than fungal growth spam. And don't act like Terran could build nothing but ghosts and kill everything with them. You still needed marines/tanks/marauders/medivacs/vikings. I don't want to get into a balance debate here. Snipe nerf had nothing to fungal growth so I don't see why you are bringing that up. What I saw was a terran mid teir unit countering every high teir unit zerg had. It was not ok. Snipe needed to be nerfed just like infestors should be nerfed now, don't get me wrong about that. I also don't see how I am biased given I main protoss. I wonder what race you play...
so you're ok with a zerg spellcasting unit countering every single unit terran has
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On November 09 2012 15:05 TechNoTrance wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game. Oh come on, snipe was ridiculous before and had to be nerfed. I'll agree that snipe was nerfed too much, and should have been somewhere between where it was and where it is now, but you have to be pretty biased to think it was ok before.
Wouldn't snipe have worked nicely if it really slayed infestors but not broods and ultralisks? And it's almost like I think Ghosts should have cloak always on free of cost and perhaps become even squishier?
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On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game. Players are "too involved in the game" to look at it with an objective point of view and the biggest problem of the game is the density of the infantry units which maximises their damage output while the power of AoE attacks has been nerfed. Fungal Growth is the one exception because of the lockdown, which can be used to kill very expensive units [Medivacs] for rather not a lot of effort and without a lot of risk. Zerg simply dont need to get any anti-air because of Fungal and Infested Terran who deals more damage than the "real thing".
Thus you need people who are NOT INVOLVED with playing the game, but who have the brains and knowledge to look for the problems from an independant perspective. The devs are apparently too involved in their daily minute problems to look at the big picture and most players are probably too concerned about their own race to be objective.
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On November 09 2012 15:39 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:36 TechNoTrance wrote:On November 09 2012 15:28 Scila wrote:On November 09 2012 15:05 TechNoTrance wrote:On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game. Oh come on, snipe was ridiculous before and had to be nerfed. I'll agree that snipe was nerfed too much, and should have been somewhere between where it was and where it is now, but you have to be pretty biased to think it was ok before. No it wasn't, you're the only biased one here.Snipe was perfectly fine and required far more apm than fungal growth spam. And don't act like Terran could build nothing but ghosts and kill everything with them. You still needed marines/tanks/marauders/medivacs/vikings. I don't want to get into a balance debate here. Snipe nerf had nothing to fungal growth so I don't see why you are bringing that up. What I saw was a terran mid teir unit countering every high teir unit zerg had. It was not ok. Snipe needed to be nerfed just like infestors should be nerfed now, don't get me wrong about that. I also don't see how I am biased given I main protoss. I wonder what race you play... so you're ok with a zerg spellcasting unit countering every single unit terran has
Do you mind showing me exactly where I said that infestors shouldn't be nerfed? I'm curious what makes you think that.
Ridiculous how biased some of you people are to assume I think the infestor is perfectly fine just because I think snipe needed to be nerfed. This is why I don't get in balance arguments.
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On November 09 2012 12:13 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 12:09 Scootaloo SC2 wrote:On November 09 2012 11:57 mishimaBeef wrote: I'm wondering if terrans/protoss are missing a timing to kill off infestors before corruptor/overseer tech is out en masse I believe the current metagame is "kill zerg before they reach BL/Infestor" as at least Terran as a stronger early/midgame? I hear there does exist a timing where zerg has to sit on gas and minerals while switching to broods, so maybe they're vulnerable then too? I don't think that that balances things out, however, if the conclusion is "if I miss that timing, I lose the game." i don't mind the whole "if zerg gets too big you lose" mentality... it existed in brood war to some extent also this can set apart playstyles with some people saying "fuck it, get brood/festor and i will use special tactics" The problem is that the "efficiency" of "Zergs getting too big" has increased due to a single thing: INJECT LARVAE and being able to stockpile it to absurd amounts which allows them to reproduce their whole army in one production cycle. Thus a Zerg can suicide-trade with a Terran going mech or a Colossus army in the full knowledge of having "more stuff" in the next engagement. This "production speed boost discrepancy" between the races is one of the two systematic problems the game has.
The other is "too tightly packed infantry make AoE abilities overpowered, so they had to be nerfed (except Fungal Growth, which is awesome no matter what until the lockdown is removed)".
Sadly there has been no sign from Blizzard that they see these two problems which limit their own creativity and require a super precise balancing ... which can be thrown off by the next generation of maps.
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People need to realize why Infestors made in a such a way. We need to think what forces zerg to have such unit?Any nerf on it will automatically kill zerg.
Try to imagine things without infestors, and many problems become apparent.
You will notice that infestors are only tip of the iceberg of the sc2 design problems.
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On November 09 2012 16:15 bokeevboke wrote: People need to realize why Infestors made in a such a way. We need to think what forces zerg to have such unit?Any nerf on it will automatically kill zerg.
Try to imagine things without infestors, and many problems become apparent.
You will notice that infestors are only tip of the iceberg of the sc2 design problems. +1 I completly agree with you. This is why they should teste somes thing with the zerg in the beta. But blizzard won't do that ofc
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On November 09 2012 15:28 Qwyn wrote: Well, WCS should do it for them, if they are really looking at tournament standings (FFS it's their own tourney)...
Just look at that lopsided race distribution, lololol. Except other tournaments are much more even, GSL is even terran favored.
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I don't think attacking the infestor is the right idea. All the races deserve versatile/volatile units, that's a good mark of balanced gameplay where skilled players can excel. The early ghost comes to mind, quicker reaper build, hydra speed upgrade.
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just wait for heart of the swarm..
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dear mr browder, please implement matchmaking for matchups i dont play z and i dont enjoy mirror matches that much but i would still like to play high level matchade TvZ, PvZ, TvP, PvT thx
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On November 09 2012 17:07 mishimaBeef wrote: dear mr browder, please implement matchmaking for matchups i dont play z and i dont enjoy mirror matches that much but i would still like to play high level matchade TvZ, PvZ, TvP, PvT thx If PvZ late game were playable and I could veto PvP, sc2 would be the best game ever.
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On November 09 2012 18:19 xAdra wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 17:07 mishimaBeef wrote: dear mr browder, please implement matchmaking for matchups i dont play z and i dont enjoy mirror matches that much but i would still like to play high level matchade TvZ, PvZ, TvP, PvT thx If PvZ late game were playable and I could veto PvP, sc2 would be the best game ever.
Strangely PvP is my favorite match up. Every PvZ I win I feel like it's because my opponent is bad. I usually watch the replay of my PvZ and see that he didn't make infestors.
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On November 09 2012 16:22 thehepp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 15:28 Qwyn wrote: Well, WCS should do it for them, if they are really looking at tournament standings (FFS it's their own tourney)...
Just look at that lopsided race distribution, lololol. Except other tournaments are much more even, GSL is even terran favored.
GSL was the only tournament terrans have left to do well in, and right now there is no question that zergs are doing better then terrans in GSL. It's not exactly the best metric to decide balance upon.
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On November 09 2012 18:42 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 16:22 thehepp wrote:On November 09 2012 15:28 Qwyn wrote: Well, WCS should do it for them, if they are really looking at tournament standings (FFS it's their own tourney)...
Just look at that lopsided race distribution, lololol. Except other tournaments are much more even, GSL is even terran favored. GSL was the only tournament terrans have left to do well in, and right now there is no question that zergs are doing better then terrans in GSL. It's not exactly the best metric to decide balance upon.
You also have to remember that currently in this season of GSL (ie. after the Ro32) the TvZ winrate is 31.1% (14W 31L). These stats were taken from the gomtv website. So I would say that GSL is not currently terran favoured, certainly not in TvZ.
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On November 09 2012 16:39 oBlade wrote: I don't think attacking the infestor is the right idea. All the races deserve versatile/volatile units, that's a good mark of balanced gameplay where skilled players can excel. The early ghost comes to mind, quicker reaper build, hydra speed upgrade.
You could wonder though, if such a caster should be a core unit. And if the infestor really makes the skilled players excel.
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OPP OPP, OPPA INFESTED MARINE STYLE
They're good, really
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On November 09 2012 15:43 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 12:10 TRaFFiC wrote: Blizzard needs a group of pro players who are respected by the community in their pocket. They obviously have no clue what's going on. RESTORE the ghost. Why was the ghost ever nerfed when it is the only counter to bloodlord infestor which dominates every game. Players are "too involved in the game" to look at it with an objective point of view and the biggest problem of the game is the density of the infantry units which maximises their damage output while the power of AoE attacks has been nerfed. Fungal Growth is the one exception because of the lockdown, which can be used to kill very expensive units [Medivacs] for rather not a lot of effort and without a lot of risk. Zerg simply dont need to get any anti-air because of Fungal and Infested Terran who deals more damage than the "real thing". Thus you need people who are NOT INVOLVED with playing the game, but who have the brains and knowledge to look for the problems from an independant perspective. The devs are apparently too involved in their daily minute problems to look at the big picture and most players are probably too concerned about their own race to be objective. Are you kidding? You want people to balance a game they don't play or are even "involved" in. That is ludicrous. How could they know what to balance if they aren't even involved with the scene? Did you even think before you posted? I mean epic lolz for realz.
Blizzard needs several pros from each race on their balance team. The pros will come up with a consensus through debate/voting etc.
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On November 09 2012 17:07 mishimaBeef wrote: dear mr browder, please implement matchmaking for matchups i dont play z and i dont enjoy mirror matches that much but i would still like to play high level matchade TvZ, PvZ, TvP, PvT thx
That'd be a terrible idea. Everyone would just avoid the matchups they are bad at and suddenly you have a massively fractured playerbase that have to wait 5-10 minutes to play a ladder game.
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On November 09 2012 19:34 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 17:07 mishimaBeef wrote: dear mr browder, please implement matchmaking for matchups i dont play z and i dont enjoy mirror matches that much but i would still like to play high level matchade TvZ, PvZ, TvP, PvT thx That'd be a terrible idea. Everyone would just avoid the matchups they are bad at and suddenly you have a massively fractured playerbase that have to wait 5-10 minutes to play a ladder game. Idk though, compared to the current situation where people only like 1-2 matchups just avoid the game in general...
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the infestor seems like an extremely well-rounded defensive unit. i say 'unit' because on their own as casters, they can achieve a large amount
this is stretching it, but i think there's a problem with gas income. it should be more difficult to get, it should force a player to produce to the best of their ability at all times, lest a timing attack suddenly appears too strong. it would also force a player to take more bases on larger maps in order to receive the gas necessary.
a game of starcraft 2 reaches late-game relatively quickly, yet so many units become redundant in a straight engagement the moment high tier units come out. even if you are producing and prodding well all game, if you are able to budget a gas-heavy army, you receive the stronger army presence and can force your expansion on the map.
that said, i'd really like pro players to gain map vision constantly throughout a game. it would really help them make educated guesses to what they could do to put on pressure. starting to happen more, needs to happen even more
On November 09 2012 19:43 S_SienZ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 19:34 Fragile51 wrote:On November 09 2012 17:07 mishimaBeef wrote: dear mr browder, please implement matchmaking for matchups i dont play z and i dont enjoy mirror matches that much but i would still like to play high level matchade TvZ, PvZ, TvP, PvT thx That'd be a terrible idea. Everyone would just avoid the matchups they are bad at and suddenly you have a massively fractured playerbase that have to wait 5-10 minutes to play a ladder game. Idk though, compared to the current situation where people only like 1-2 matchups just avoid the game in general...
and they'd continue to like and play only those matchups until they grow bored of them or until something changes in the popular strategies. casual players need GREAT custom maps.
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On November 09 2012 19:06 Sambobly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 18:42 Fragile51 wrote:On November 09 2012 16:22 thehepp wrote:On November 09 2012 15:28 Qwyn wrote: Well, WCS should do it for them, if they are really looking at tournament standings (FFS it's their own tourney)...
Just look at that lopsided race distribution, lololol. Except other tournaments are much more even, GSL is even terran favored. GSL was the only tournament terrans have left to do well in, and right now there is no question that zergs are doing better then terrans in GSL. It's not exactly the best metric to decide balance upon. You also have to remember that currently in this season of GSL (ie. after the Ro32) the TvZ winrate is 31.1% (14W 31L). These stats were taken from the gomtv website. So I would say that GSL is not currently terran favoured, certainly not in TvZ.
That's a good point. The win rate looks terrible. But you also have to keep in minde how strong the zergs are that are playing. The real issue is not that Terran can't win versus zerg or that protoss has to relie on sentry immortal allins. The real thing is that Zerg players have much more options and tricks in their arsenal to trick and kill their opponent. Beeing aggressive is rewarded quiete heavily versus terran if terran has to step up in their macro and economy to compete with a 3 base zerg and a hive deathclock.
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Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy.
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On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy.
Yeah, that were pretty much the sickest Fungals of all time. Like Khaldor said there was merely a unit not being fungaled. Bit I am afraid that Blizzard will overchange the Infestor and you saw that Leenock needed the Infestors because with Muta/Ling/Bane he would maybe not able to win anyway. If Fungal gets changed too hard Zerg will fall.
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I hate the phrase sick fungals when casters use it so liberally. Cool, you pressed F in a clumped group of units. SO SICK GUYS. It's not sick, it doesn't take skill to use and unless you have a seizure while you're casting the subsequent fungals, everything's gonna die.
But I guess that sounds better than well the other guy screwed up massively cause he's facing Zerg and he didn't pay attention so he just loses those units.
You know what a sick fungal is? Leenock vs god I can't remember who it was (DRG I think) and he sneaks infestors in the back, and hit squads the other guy's infestors with fungals. That was sick.
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On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy.
So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake?
One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2.
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On November 09 2012 19:57 Destroyr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 19:06 Sambobly wrote:On November 09 2012 18:42 Fragile51 wrote:On November 09 2012 16:22 thehepp wrote:On November 09 2012 15:28 Qwyn wrote: Well, WCS should do it for them, if they are really looking at tournament standings (FFS it's their own tourney)...
Just look at that lopsided race distribution, lololol. Except other tournaments are much more even, GSL is even terran favored. GSL was the only tournament terrans have left to do well in, and right now there is no question that zergs are doing better then terrans in GSL. It's not exactly the best metric to decide balance upon. You also have to remember that currently in this season of GSL (ie. after the Ro32) the TvZ winrate is 31.1% (14W 31L). These stats were taken from the gomtv website. So I would say that GSL is not currently terran favoured, certainly not in TvZ. That's a good point. The win rate looks terrible. But you also have to keep in minde how strong the zergs are that are playing. The real issue is not that Terran can't win versus zerg or that protoss has to relie on sentry immortal allins. The real thing is that Zerg players have much more options and tricks in their arsenal to trick and kill their opponent. Beeing aggressive is rewarded quiete heavily versus terran if terran has to step up in their macro and economy to compete with a 3 base zerg and a hive deathclock. Which was one of the reasons a lot of nerfs against Terran was justified. "Herp derp Terran has soo many options to play, it's ok that each is weak because of mindgames".
Aka: we all had this before for Terrans.
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On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. Do you realize how impossible it is to constantly maintain a 200/200 army splitted against a 2.0 radius spell with SC2 unit movement? Meanwhile, since you're walking on creep, you're punished the second your units inevitably clump again.
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queen change is fucking awful too. dw build 5000 drones and bases, and creep the 3rd and defend everything np.
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On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2.
where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game?
Hell at any stage of the game?
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On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. Mines in BW would never kill off a huge part of your army and you can try to spread your units against a Spider Mine, whereas you can do nothing once you have a core chunk of your army fungaled except hope the opponent forgets the last Fungal.
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On November 09 2012 21:36 Roth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. Yeah, that were pretty much the sickest Fungals of all time. Like Khaldor said there was merely a unit not being fungaled. Bit I am afraid that Blizzard will overchange the Infestor and you saw that Leenock needed the Infestors because with Muta/Ling/Bane he would maybe not able to win anyway.If Fungal gets changed too hard Zerg will fall.
Actually he managed to beat MKP with ling/bling/muta only. But of course, any change to the infestor needs to be very small at first. I like the idea of making infestor 3 food. It would make it less late game massable without losing it's support role in any way. And making interceptors non-fungalable so carriers can be viable.
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It's really entertaining how them zergies expect terrans to do these 300 apm techniques (splitting marines, using emps with what minor range advantage there is, kite corruptors with vikings) when all they ever had to do is to use the 2.0 radius stunning+damaging spell on everything. Really fair.
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Fungal is killing the game, its making zerg far to easy and cost effective play, upseting the balance. I really don't see any restrictions on zerg like i do with other races, long ago they asked if fungal should not hit air and so many pro gamer zergs were saying no you cant do that zerg would be to shit, lol well those pro gamers are still shit and the actual good zergs are raping face because fungal is the easiest and best spell in the game~
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DB, please start watching GSL and GSTL...
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Starting with a small change like the "3-food-infestor" is a good idea imo. Those GSL games of today clearly showed, that something is wrong with the infestor.
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Infestors are an absolute fucking joke. There is a small redeeming factor: playing vs. zerg trains you to make zero mistakes, and this benefits me both in the long run and in other matchups.
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On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game?
They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own.
Anyway it is not really hard to keep your army spread in Sc2, unless you 1a everything around, so it is mostly the players fault that Fungal hits so perfect (As if plague was any different ..., well it didn't need to chain anything). Especially Vikings are super easy to keep constantly spread. That being said I have no doubt Fungal will soon be a Range 8 spell. Would be a better solution then making it 1.5 radius. What I personally would prefer is that units wouldn't forget their commands when fungaled or could be issues new ones even if Fungal prevents those from being done. So you could spread Medivacs out and send them home instead of having to issue a command after every fungal so the Zerg doesn't even has to bother chaining them right. Or that a suicide Blink into the Broodlords works better, because your units suddenly don't start attacking the free units because of their target priority after Fungal decides it doesn't like that your units targetfire stuff.
Fungal makes the opponent look like an idiot especially when harassing. Only with Fungal you see Medivacs going super derp mode. Having to pay attention to your Medivac every 3 seconds just to save it is alot of multitasking to ask for. But if they would keep their commands Fungal would already be weaker by alot.
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On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough.
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On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Anyway it is not really hard to keep your army spread in Sc2, unless you 1a everything around, so it is mostly the players fault that Fungal hits so perfect (As if plague was any different ..., well it didn't need to chain anything). Especially Vikings are super easy to keep constantly spread. That being said I have no doubt Fungal will soon be a Range 8 spell. Would be a better solution then making it 1.5 radius. What I personally would prefer is that units wouldn't forget their commands when fungaled or could be issues new ones even if Fungal prevents those from being done. So you could spread Medivacs out and send them home instead of having to issue a command after every fungal so the Zerg doesn't even has to bother chaining them right. Or that a suicide Blink into the Broodlords works better, because your units suddenly don't start attacking the free units because of their target priority after Fungal decides it doesn't like that your units targetfire stuff. Fungal makes the opponent look like an idiot especially when harassing. Only with Fungal you see Medivacs going super derp mode. Having to pay attention to your Medivac every 3 seconds just to save it is alot of multitasking to ask for. But if they would keep their commands Fungal would already be weaker by alot.
You can't compare BW AoE with SC2. The unit density is just not the same. Imagine sc2 tank with BW tank range...
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On November 09 2012 22:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough.
Thats a good point.. I don't play terran but every time a see a marine-tank push in a casted game, it gets annihilated before it does any damage, no matter if tanks are sieged or marines split. Usually terrans are pretty far behind then.
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On November 09 2012 22:25 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 22:17 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough. Thats a good point.. I don't play terran but every time a see a marine-tank push in a casted game, it gets annihilated before it does any damage, no matter if tanks are sieged or marines split. Usually terrans are pretty far behind then.
Yup. Tanks just suck in TvZ now. I don't know if this is due to maps, creeps or whatever. The only time I see them get a decent number of kills is if they are siege behind buildings for ling run bys. And they sometimes do as much damage to marines as they do to lings.
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On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. The problem is that there's no equivalency here. It's very easy for Zerg to capitalize HUGELY on a very tiny Terran mistake, but it's not easy for Terran (or Protoss, for that matter) to capitalize on small Zerg mistakes. Hell, it's not even easy to capitalize on large Zerg mistakes outside of Vortexing them, and even that's no longer a sure fire win if it hits anymore.
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On November 09 2012 22:25 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 22:17 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough. Thats a good point.. I don't play terran but every time a see a marine-tank push in a casted game, it gets annihilated before it does any damage, no matter if tanks are sieged or marines split. Usually terrans are pretty far behind then.
players tend to delay tank push and then walk so far up on creep, most maps are easy to get surrounds on and besides unless u havent noticed, the banelings are always well spread out for the zerg pros and they are always targetting marine balls with those banelings, zoning the marines out... If you dont know shit about something, dont comment please.
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On November 09 2012 22:17 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough.
Also there's the fact that you have to spread bio to mitigate baneling splash/ infestor AOE but that allows Zerglings to get better surface area when attacking. Spreading is necessary but at the same time is bad vs. Lings. It's ridiculous.
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lol... its not like heavy infestor usage is something new.
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On November 09 2012 23:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 22:25 MWY wrote:On November 09 2012 22:17 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough. Thats a good point.. I don't play terran but every time a see a marine-tank push in a casted game, it gets annihilated before it does any damage, no matter if tanks are sieged or marines split. Usually terrans are pretty far behind then. players tend to delay tank push and then walk so far up on creep, most maps are easy to get surrounds on and besides unless u havent noticed, the banelings are always well spread out for the zerg pros and they are always targetting marine balls with those banelings, zoning the marines out... If you dont know shit about something, dont comment please.
That is the problem. Creep is much harder to contain now. So terrans are pretty much force to walk on creep if they want to hit before BLs. Yes, zergs have gotten much better at splitting their banes so 1 tank shot doesn't kil 4-5 banes. Problem is what can Terran do to counter at this? Terrans with good micro should trade well against Zerg with good micro but it just isn't happening now...
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
No they aren't though. The amount of pro zergs who have terrible engagements frequently is pretty high. Remember when any Zerg making ultras lost the game? The difference in engagement micro between the average Korean Terran and the average Korean Zerg is huge.
Players like Leenock, DRG and Life who have good micro did well, or would do well regardless of the infestor. Sadly they get targetted unfairly with the pathzerg taunts
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On November 09 2012 23:36 BoggieMan wrote: lol... its not like heavy infestor usage is something new.
It is not just the infestor usage. It is the fact that zergs have a much easier time teching to infestors. The timing windows to hit pre infestors which existed before just isn't there.
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"working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo.
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On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. You forgot detection.
They really are way too versatile, units shouldn't always be effective.
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so mass infestor is a "this month" thing?
i clearly remember me whining about infestors non stop since the fungal patch...
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On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo.
Yeah, I don't like to balance-whine, but the Infestor is just a terribly designed unit, overpowered or not.
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United States3648 Posts
On November 09 2012 16:45 KapsyL wrote: just wait for heart of the swarm.. Sure can't wait to play new TvZ where Zerg get to blind my units on top of fungal while attacking me with brood lords and ground brood lords with super broodlings and all I get is a 2 supply mine.
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On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo.
Because they are slow at defending against drops. Because the timing for hitting before Pathogen Glans is finished is obvious and easy. Because if they are rushing for infestors than their only real unit for defending is primarily zerglings
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On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo.
infestors also have soft counters (small unit groups to snipe them with stim/blink, Long-ranged AoE units (Tanks, Colossi)) and hard counters (HT feedback, Ghosts). Seriously, it is pityful to see how many Pros do not build those counters against infestor heavy play (5+ infestors). It is like watching a PvT where the Protoss never gets a Support Bay and goes for mass HT with storm, but the Terran refuses to stop producing Vikings, and never goes for Ghosts. HT can harass, shut down drops hard, and melt your army with one good Storm. OP? Not so much, as it is more obvious to people to actually counter those units. Whereas in XvZ, people complain about mass Infestor, but never actually try to counter them in any way. You do not need mass Carrier + Mothership to beat Infestor/BL. Just feedback the infestors, and win with pretty much anything you want to. Same goes for Terrans, who stopped building Ghosts since they don't counter BL/Ultra hard anymore. Yet EMP or Snipe can straight up win you the game vs Infestor/BL. Can't win with two base pushes because your sentries get fungaled? Well, this is the same ignorance as a Zerg complaining not being able to break a two base Protoss with a two base Roach Hydra timing push (who does those anyways? Not the point though, lol) when the Protoss gets fast Colossi with range out. You are not supposed to. Go tech to the counter-unit instead of wasting your units.
On November 10 2012 00:04 forsooth wrote:Sure can't wait to play new TvZ where Zerg get to blind my units on top of fungal while attacking me with brood lords and ground brood lords with super broodlings and all I get is a 2 supply mine.
that 2 supply mine denies the only other viable option to infestors: the mutalisk. Can't do much when being FORCED to use infestors or die.
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On November 09 2012 19:50 nanaoei wrote: and they'd continue to like and play only those matchups until they grow bored of them or until something changes in the popular strategies. casual players need GREAT custom maps.
well i for one don't bother with ladder anymore because i don't feel like playing mirror matchups, should i just leave when i get a mirror?
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On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. Because they are slow at defending against drops. Because the timing for hitting before Pathogen Glans is finished is obvious and easy. Because if they are rushing for infestors than their only real unit for defending is primarily zerglings
Obviously you cant rush for infestors and skip everything else. But there is no reason in any game to not build infestors. They do everything. They are not bad at anything. The opponent is going for an allin! Get some infestors. The opponent is building banshees! get some infestors. The opponent is going for normal army composition? Only build infestors. The opponent is going dark templars? Guess what, infestors.
Its a retarded unit. Along side Sentries as the two worst units in this game, on my list anyways.
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On November 10 2012 00:08 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. infestors also have soft counters (small unit groups to snipe them with stim/blink, Long-ranged AoE units (Tanks, Colossi)) and hard counters (HT feedback, Ghosts). Seriously, it is pityful to see how many Pros do not build those counters against infestor heavy play (5+ infestors). It is like watching a PvT where the Protoss never gets a Support Bay and goes for mass HT with storm, but the Terran refuses to stop producing Vikings, and never goes for Ghosts. HT can harass, shut down drops hard, and melt your army with one good Storm. OP? Not so much, as it is more obvious to people to actually counter those units. Whereas in XvZ, people complain about mass Infestor, but never actually try to counter them in any way. You do not need mass Carrier + Mothership to beat Infestor/BL. Just feedback the infestors, and win with pretty much anything you want to. Same goes for Terrans, who stopped building Ghosts since they don't counter BL/Ultra hard anymore. Yet EMP or Snipe can straight up win you the game vs Infestor/BL. Can't win with two base pushes because your sentries get fungaled? Well, this is the same ignorance as a Zerg complaining not being able to break a two base Protoss with a two base Roach Hydra timing push (who does those anyways? Not the point though, lol) when the Protoss gets fast Colossi with range out. You are not supposed to. Go tech to the counter-unit instead of wasting your units.
HTs and ghosts are counters if Zerg doesn't have other units with their infestors. Not sure how your ghosts and HTs can get close if they have BLs positioned slightly ahead of them.
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On November 10 2012 00:12 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 00:08 Cirqueenflex wrote:On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. infestors also have soft counters (small unit groups to snipe them with stim/blink, Long-ranged AoE units (Tanks, Colossi)) and hard counters (HT feedback, Ghosts). Seriously, it is pityful to see how many Pros do not build those counters against infestor heavy play (5+ infestors). It is like watching a PvT where the Protoss never gets a Support Bay and goes for mass HT with storm, but the Terran refuses to stop producing Vikings, and never goes for Ghosts. HT can harass, shut down drops hard, and melt your army with one good Storm. OP? Not so much, as it is more obvious to people to actually counter those units. Whereas in XvZ, people complain about mass Infestor, but never actually try to counter them in any way. You do not need mass Carrier + Mothership to beat Infestor/BL. Just feedback the infestors, and win with pretty much anything you want to. Same goes for Terrans, who stopped building Ghosts since they don't counter BL/Ultra hard anymore. Yet EMP or Snipe can straight up win you the game vs Infestor/BL. Can't win with two base pushes because your sentries get fungaled? Well, this is the same ignorance as a Zerg complaining not being able to break a two base Protoss with a two base Roach Hydra timing push (who does those anyways? Not the point though, lol) when the Protoss gets fast Colossi with range out. You are not supposed to. Go tech to the counter-unit instead of wasting your units. HTs and ghosts are counters if Zerg doesn't have other units with their infestors. Not sure how your ghosts and HTs can get close if they have BLs positioned slightly ahead of them.
infestors don't have infinite range. They HAVE to go to the front line to get fungals on Vikings and Stalkers before they blink, and also to avoid the Vortex. If Protoss is allowed to freely blink directly under the BL and focus them Zerg will in most cases still lose the fight. It is really only the fungals onto the Protoss army when it is out of range for attacking BLs that kills it. Which requires Infestors to run up in front of the BLs. Also, as soon as you decide to engage, you can even walk by with HTs most of the time and pop all Infestors when they just fungaled once onto your army. BLs are poor in direct combat (when they get hit back, because they have so few hp compared to cost), and abysmal damage when there are enough Colossi to instantly sweep away the Broodlings. If there are no infestors ahead of the BLs, you are not supposed to run in single HTs on feedback attempts, but to engage with the full army (and feedback while sniping BLs). If there are infestors ahead, feedback first.
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On November 09 2012 23:44 Wombat_NI wrote: No they aren't though. The amount of pro zergs who have terrible engagements frequently is pretty high. Remember when any Zerg making ultras lost the game? The difference in engagement micro between the average Korean Terran and the average Korean Zerg is huge.
Players like Leenock, DRG and Life who have good micro did well, or would do well regardless of the infestor. Sadly they get targetted unfairly with the pathzerg taunts Were not saying that those players don't deserve to win, they just have the best examples (because they are so good) of the infestor being fucking retarded.
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On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo.
Pretty much this and it shows clearly why Distin Browder and DK are horrible at their job also.
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On November 10 2012 01:00 GhostNova wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. Pretty much this and it shows clearly why Distin Browder and DK are horrible at their job also.
It's the fact that you always see them en masse. 15-20 infestors. When do you ever see that many ht's or ghosts? Never. The fact that infestors alone can kill an entire 200 supply army with ease is the issue, and will never be fixed.
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On November 10 2012 00:34 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 00:12 vthree wrote:On November 10 2012 00:08 Cirqueenflex wrote:On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. infestors also have soft counters (small unit groups to snipe them with stim/blink, Long-ranged AoE units (Tanks, Colossi)) and hard counters (HT feedback, Ghosts). Seriously, it is pityful to see how many Pros do not build those counters against infestor heavy play (5+ infestors). It is like watching a PvT where the Protoss never gets a Support Bay and goes for mass HT with storm, but the Terran refuses to stop producing Vikings, and never goes for Ghosts. HT can harass, shut down drops hard, and melt your army with one good Storm. OP? Not so much, as it is more obvious to people to actually counter those units. Whereas in XvZ, people complain about mass Infestor, but never actually try to counter them in any way. You do not need mass Carrier + Mothership to beat Infestor/BL. Just feedback the infestors, and win with pretty much anything you want to. Same goes for Terrans, who stopped building Ghosts since they don't counter BL/Ultra hard anymore. Yet EMP or Snipe can straight up win you the game vs Infestor/BL. Can't win with two base pushes because your sentries get fungaled? Well, this is the same ignorance as a Zerg complaining not being able to break a two base Protoss with a two base Roach Hydra timing push (who does those anyways? Not the point though, lol) when the Protoss gets fast Colossi with range out. You are not supposed to. Go tech to the counter-unit instead of wasting your units. HTs and ghosts are counters if Zerg doesn't have other units with their infestors. Not sure how your ghosts and HTs can get close if they have BLs positioned slightly ahead of them. infestors don't have infinite range. They HAVE to go to the front line to get fungals on Vikings and Stalkers before they blink, and also to avoid the Vortex. If Protoss is allowed to freely blink directly under the BL and focus them Zerg will in most cases still lose the fight. It is really only the fungals onto the Protoss army when it is out of range for attacking BLs that kills it. Which requires Infestors to run up in front of the BLs. Also, as soon as you decide to engage, you can even walk by with HTs most of the time and pop all Infestors when they just fungaled once onto your army. BLs are poor in direct combat (when they get hit back, because they have so few hp compared to cost), and abysmal damage when there are enough Colossi to instantly sweep away the Broodlings. If there are no infestors ahead of the BLs, you are not supposed to run in single HTs on feedback attempts, but to engage with the full army (and feedback while sniping BLs). If there are infestors ahead, feedback first.
You are just one of those Zerg that think you have great skills after winning a battle with your OP iMbafestors and gg lords. Do you know the difference between range of fungals and feedback? The range of BL? There are no hard counters to Infestors. They are currently the best casters and when you get a lot of them, unstoppable.
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fungal needs to changed back to plague of have a slow-effect instead of shutting all movement...
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On November 10 2012 00:08 Cirqueenflex wrote:
that 2 supply mine denies the only other viable option to infestors: the mutalisk. Can't do much when being FORCED to use infestors or die.
Not sure if serious? If terrans know you go infestors, then there is still no real counter build. You act like there is..
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On November 10 2012 00:04 forsooth wrote:Sure can't wait to play new TvZ where Zerg get to blind my units on top of fungal while attacking me with brood lords and ground brood lords with super broodlings and all I get is a 2 supply mine. don't forget that they still have infestors in HotS
On November 10 2012 00:34 Cirqueenflex wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 00:12 vthree wrote:On November 10 2012 00:08 Cirqueenflex wrote:On November 09 2012 23:49 Excludos wrote: "working as intended"..really? The problem was never balance, its the fact that infestors detract from this game, not add to it. Completely stop all micro? Check. Does a ton of damage? Check. Can be used to stop drops and general harass? Check. Can be used to harass? Check!
Why would you build something else? The unit is amazing at everything, and thats the whole problem with it imo. infestors also have soft counters (small unit groups to snipe them with stim/blink, Long-ranged AoE units (Tanks, Colossi)) and hard counters (HT feedback, Ghosts). Seriously, it is pityful to see how many Pros do not build those counters against infestor heavy play (5+ infestors). It is like watching a PvT where the Protoss never gets a Support Bay and goes for mass HT with storm, but the Terran refuses to stop producing Vikings, and never goes for Ghosts. HT can harass, shut down drops hard, and melt your army with one good Storm. OP? Not so much, as it is more obvious to people to actually counter those units. Whereas in XvZ, people complain about mass Infestor, but never actually try to counter them in any way. You do not need mass Carrier + Mothership to beat Infestor/BL. Just feedback the infestors, and win with pretty much anything you want to. Same goes for Terrans, who stopped building Ghosts since they don't counter BL/Ultra hard anymore. Yet EMP or Snipe can straight up win you the game vs Infestor/BL. Can't win with two base pushes because your sentries get fungaled? Well, this is the same ignorance as a Zerg complaining not being able to break a two base Protoss with a two base Roach Hydra timing push (who does those anyways? Not the point though, lol) when the Protoss gets fast Colossi with range out. You are not supposed to. Go tech to the counter-unit instead of wasting your units. HTs and ghosts are counters if Zerg doesn't have other units with their infestors. Not sure how your ghosts and HTs can get close if they have BLs positioned slightly ahead of them. infestors don't have infinite range. They HAVE to go to the front line to get fungals on Vikings and Stalkers before they blink, and also to avoid the Vortex. If Protoss is allowed to freely blink directly under the BL and focus them Zerg will in most cases still lose the fight. It is really only the fungals onto the Protoss army when it is out of range for attacking BLs that kills it. Which requires Infestors to run up in front of the BLs. Also, as soon as you decide to engage, you can even walk by with HTs most of the time and pop all Infestors when they just fungaled once onto your army. BLs are poor in direct combat (when they get hit back, because they have so few hp compared to cost), and abysmal damage when there are enough Colossi to instantly sweep away the Broodlings. If there are no infestors ahead of the BLs, you are not supposed to run in single HTs on feedback attempts, but to engage with the full army (and feedback while sniping BLs). If there are infestors ahead, feedback first. now if you actually thought of how to use the BL and spines you won't have a problem
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On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote: Because they are slow at defending against drops. Wrong. Infestors have 2.925 movement speed on creep which is quite fast if for some reason you absolutely need to go somewhere around your bases with them to defend drops (don't see why since you already have 6.11 ms Speedlings and Spines/Spores, but eh...).
On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote: Because the timing for hitting before Pathogen Glans is finished is obvious and easy. Oh really? Is there a Nydus-like sound when a Zerg player starts upgrading Pathogen Glands?
On November 10 2012 00:04 Butterednuts wrote: Because if they are rushing for infestors than their only real unit for defending is primarily zerglings Wrong. Zergs can use any combination of Zerglings, Banelings (ZvT) and Roaches to defend while waiting their tier2 tech—not to mention Queens in ZvT, and of course semi-static defence. Besides, builds like 2-bases Infestors are still not really the norm, so the problem is not that Zergs “rush” to Infestors.
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In hots they should make binding cloud slow and fungal like a playgu that can kill
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what if fungals didn`t stack?
like if units are already fungalled, they won't be re-fungalled if they are in the radius of a new fungal attempt
this would increase the show of skill between players by setting apart those that can chain fungal better
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On November 08 2012 09:15 Zeborg wrote: The point isn't that fungal growth is overpowered, the point is that it's boring and uninspiring to watch. Just like force fields. and the colossus. But people mentioned that during the beta already.
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United States3648 Posts
On November 10 2012 02:22 mishimaBeef wrote: what if fungals didn`t stack?
like if units are already fungalled, they won't be re-fungalled if they are in the radius of a new fungal attempt
this would increase the show of skill between players by setting apart those that can chain fungal better Anyone in any league can hover their mouse over a group of units and click again when they see the green stuff disappear. Especially because it's instant cast.
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On November 10 2012 02:56 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 02:22 mishimaBeef wrote: what if fungals didn`t stack?
like if units are already fungalled, they won't be re-fungalled if they are in the radius of a new fungal attempt
this would increase the show of skill between players by setting apart those that can chain fungal better Anyone in any league can hover their mouse over a group of units and click again when they see the green stuff disappear. Especially because it's instant cast.
it makes it harder when they have to do 10 other things
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Cool that they took the same approach with Thor energy removal, Ghosts, BFHs etc.
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On November 10 2012 02:56 forsooth wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 02:22 mishimaBeef wrote: what if fungals didn`t stack?
like if units are already fungalled, they won't be re-fungalled if they are in the radius of a new fungal attempt
this would increase the show of skill between players by setting apart those that can chain fungal better Anyone in any league can hover their mouse over a group of units and click again when they see the green stuff disappear. Especially because it's instant cast.
Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Kiting units just involves alternating betwen clicking behind them and pressing stop. Macro just involves pressing the button to build units when the last one finishes. Splitting involves telling a group of units to move in one direction, then boxing half of those units and telling them to go the other way.
Everything in SC2 is simple. In tennis you just hit a ball with a racket.
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On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 02:56 forsooth wrote:On November 10 2012 02:22 mishimaBeef wrote: what if fungals didn`t stack?
like if units are already fungalled, they won't be re-fungalled if they are in the radius of a new fungal attempt
this would increase the show of skill between players by setting apart those that can chain fungal better Anyone in any league can hover their mouse over a group of units and click again when they see the green stuff disappear. Especially because it's instant cast. Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Kiting units just involves alternating betwen clicking behind them and pressing stop. Macro just involves pressing the button to build units when the last one finishes. Splitting involves telling a group of units to move in one direction, then boxing half of those units and telling them to go the other way. Everything in SC2 is simple. In tennis you just hit a ball with a racket.
lmao :D
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On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 02:56 forsooth wrote:On November 10 2012 02:22 mishimaBeef wrote: what if fungals didn`t stack?
like if units are already fungalled, they won't be re-fungalled if they are in the radius of a new fungal attempt
this would increase the show of skill between players by setting apart those that can chain fungal better Anyone in any league can hover their mouse over a group of units and click again when they see the green stuff disappear. Especially because it's instant cast. Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Maybe, but I don't see how anyone can discuss that it's far easier to kill stuff with a 2.0 radius crippling spell cast by a 2.25/2.925 movement speed caster than with a 1.5 radius spell cast by a 1.875 ms caster who has nothing on its own to prevent his targets from running away.
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On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:
Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Kiting units just involves alternating betwen clicking behind them and pressing stop. Macro just involves pressing the button to build units when the last one finishes. Splitting involves telling a group of units to move in one direction, then boxing half of those units and telling them to go the other way.
Everything in SC2 is simple. In tennis you just hit a ball with a racket.
I have to contest this view. I play tennis and it is nowhere as simple as "hitting" a ball. There are so many subtleties to "hitting" at tennis ball that I could fill a book trying to explain them. The problem with fungal is not that it's "simple" but that for it's simplicity fungal gives way to much payoff for what it is. I click fungal, I target units, and instantly I get the full utility that fungal offers. Compare this to storm, where I have to think about positioning, and how to utilize it's full damage. Compare this to kiting, where I have to understand how to separate my units to decrease as much damage that's done to me while doing as much damage as possible. No way in any situation would you call them "simple". You have to use your intelligence, speed, reaction and practice in each of those situations. Fungal you just click and gain the full utility.
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On November 10 2012 03:19 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:
Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Kiting units just involves alternating betwen clicking behind them and pressing stop. Macro just involves pressing the button to build units when the last one finishes. Splitting involves telling a group of units to move in one direction, then boxing half of those units and telling them to go the other way.
Everything in SC2 is simple. In tennis you just hit a ball with a racket. I have to contest this view. I play tennis and it is nowhere as simple as "hitting" a ball. There are so many subtleties to "hitting" at tennis ball that I could fill a book trying to explain them. The problem with fungal is not that it's "simple" but that for it's simplicity fungal gives way to much payoff for what it is. I click fungal, I target units, and instantly I get the full utility that fungal offers. Compare this to storm, where I have to think about positioning, and how to utilize it's full damage. Compare this to kiting, where I have to understand how to separate my units to decrease as much damage that's done to me while doing as much damage as possible. No way in any situation would you call them "simple". You have to use your intelligence, speed, reaction and practice in each of those situations. Fungal you just click and gain the full utility. Your mouse must be in the right position for a fungal. You must hit f each time for each fungal. If you are microing somewhere else during a battle its harder. You kind of just helped his point.
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On November 10 2012 03:09 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:On November 10 2012 02:56 forsooth wrote:On November 10 2012 02:22 mishimaBeef wrote: what if fungals didn`t stack?
like if units are already fungalled, they won't be re-fungalled if they are in the radius of a new fungal attempt
this would increase the show of skill between players by setting apart those that can chain fungal better Anyone in any league can hover their mouse over a group of units and click again when they see the green stuff disappear. Especially because it's instant cast. Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Maybe, but I don't see how anyone can discuss that it's far easier to kill stuff with a 2.0 radius crippling spell cast by a 2.25/2.925 movement speed caster than with a 1.5 radius spell cast by a 1.875 ms caster who has nothing on its own to prevent his targets from running away.
That is a much better argument to make, as storm us much harder to get a full hit with. I don't really like infestors in their current state and would like to see them toned down. I am not sure how much or what needs to be done.
I was more commenting on the tone that casting spells in the middle of battle is easy. When something is known to be a possible balance issue, most argument degrade down to people devaluing the skill of the players for that race. It is a garbage argument and kinda dumb.
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On November 10 2012 03:23 thehepp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:19 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:
Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Kiting units just involves alternating betwen clicking behind them and pressing stop. Macro just involves pressing the button to build units when the last one finishes. Splitting involves telling a group of units to move in one direction, then boxing half of those units and telling them to go the other way.
Everything in SC2 is simple. In tennis you just hit a ball with a racket. I have to contest this view. I play tennis and it is nowhere as simple as "hitting" a ball. There are so many subtleties to "hitting" at tennis ball that I could fill a book trying to explain them. The problem with fungal is not that it's "simple" but that for it's simplicity fungal gives way to much payoff for what it is. I click fungal, I target units, and instantly I get the full utility that fungal offers. Compare this to storm, where I have to think about positioning, and how to utilize it's full damage. Compare this to kiting, where I have to understand how to separate my units to decrease as much damage that's done to me while doing as much damage as possible. No way in any situation would you call them "simple". You have to use your intelligence, speed, reaction and practice in each of those situations. Fungal you just click and gain the full utility. Your mouse must be in the right position for a fungal. You must hit f each time for each fungal. If you are microing somewhere else during a battle its harder. You kind of just helped his point.
That's like saying as long as you can get the ball on the racquet, you can instantly play tennis. Nowhere is tennis as close to easy like that nor should it be but yet for some reason people make the same argument for fungal. We are talking about an aoe spell that roots, prevents spells AND causes damage. And the only price I have to pay is being able to aim it? Are you kidding me?
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How about if fungal growth only inhibits the movement of the single unit it targets (or if that's too weak, only a radius of 1 is rooted), it could still keep its 4s (or even have an immediate) for 30/40A damage at the specified radius of 2?
This will allow zerg to keep a decent AoE, without forcing the root on everything.
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Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors.
B) Knows something is wrong with infestor and will be changing it as soon as the time is right (after major tournaments that are coming up).
C) A combination of A and B
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On November 10 2012 03:33 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:23 thehepp wrote:On November 10 2012 03:19 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:
Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Kiting units just involves alternating betwen clicking behind them and pressing stop. Macro just involves pressing the button to build units when the last one finishes. Splitting involves telling a group of units to move in one direction, then boxing half of those units and telling them to go the other way.
Everything in SC2 is simple. In tennis you just hit a ball with a racket. I have to contest this view. I play tennis and it is nowhere as simple as "hitting" a ball. There are so many subtleties to "hitting" at tennis ball that I could fill a book trying to explain them. The problem with fungal is not that it's "simple" but that for it's simplicity fungal gives way to much payoff for what it is. I click fungal, I target units, and instantly I get the full utility that fungal offers. Compare this to storm, where I have to think about positioning, and how to utilize it's full damage. Compare this to kiting, where I have to understand how to separate my units to decrease as much damage that's done to me while doing as much damage as possible. No way in any situation would you call them "simple". You have to use your intelligence, speed, reaction and practice in each of those situations. Fungal you just click and gain the full utility. Your mouse must be in the right position for a fungal. You must hit f each time for each fungal. If you are microing somewhere else during a battle its harder. You kind of just helped his point. That's like saying as long as you can get the ball on the racquet, you can instantly play tennis. Nowhere is tennis as close to easy like that nor should it be but yet for some reason people make the same argument for fungal. We are talking about an aoe spell that roots, prevents spells AND causes damage. And the only price I have to pay is being able to aim it? Are you kidding me?
This is a dumb argument, which is why I brought it up in my post. It was is response to a post saying that anyone can hover their mouse with an AOE marker and click. My point was that every action in the game could be broken down to that level and it was stupid to make an argument like that. Much like it would be stupid to make an argument that tennis is only hitting a ball with a racket or soccer is just kicking a ball, so anyone could do it.
Context and nuance are important things. I don't think fungle is a great spell and can be to good, but saying it is to easy to cast use dumb. Saying that it to effective over the course of the battle because of the snare is a better argument.
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they should remove smart casting
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On November 10 2012 03:39 Forsy wrote: How about if fungal growth only inhibits the movement of the single unit it targets (or if that's too weak, only a radius of 1 is rooted), it could still keep its 4s (or even have an immediate) for 30/40A damage at the specified radius of 2?
This will allow zerg to keep a decent AoE, without forcing the root on everything. I was thinking about something similar, but like this, it has radius of 1, and after 2 seconds, it spreads to radius of 2 - 2,5(hence the Fungal Growth), it will support micro, and it won't be as nearly as gamebreaking as it is now.
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On November 10 2012 03:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:33 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On November 10 2012 03:23 thehepp wrote:On November 10 2012 03:19 KamikazeDurrrp wrote:On November 10 2012 03:02 Plansix wrote:
Like storm, or force field or every other spell in the game? Breaking any specific action down to be basics makes it sound simple. Kiting units just involves alternating betwen clicking behind them and pressing stop. Macro just involves pressing the button to build units when the last one finishes. Splitting involves telling a group of units to move in one direction, then boxing half of those units and telling them to go the other way.
Everything in SC2 is simple. In tennis you just hit a ball with a racket. I have to contest this view. I play tennis and it is nowhere as simple as "hitting" a ball. There are so many subtleties to "hitting" at tennis ball that I could fill a book trying to explain them. The problem with fungal is not that it's "simple" but that for it's simplicity fungal gives way to much payoff for what it is. I click fungal, I target units, and instantly I get the full utility that fungal offers. Compare this to storm, where I have to think about positioning, and how to utilize it's full damage. Compare this to kiting, where I have to understand how to separate my units to decrease as much damage that's done to me while doing as much damage as possible. No way in any situation would you call them "simple". You have to use your intelligence, speed, reaction and practice in each of those situations. Fungal you just click and gain the full utility. Your mouse must be in the right position for a fungal. You must hit f each time for each fungal. If you are microing somewhere else during a battle its harder. You kind of just helped his point. That's like saying as long as you can get the ball on the racquet, you can instantly play tennis. Nowhere is tennis as close to easy like that nor should it be but yet for some reason people make the same argument for fungal. We are talking about an aoe spell that roots, prevents spells AND causes damage. And the only price I have to pay is being able to aim it? Are you kidding me? This is a dumb argument, which is why I brought it up in my post. It was is response to a post saying that anyone can hover their mouse with an AOE marker and click. My point was that every action in the game could be broken down to that level and it was stupid to make an argument like that. Much like it would be stupid to make an argument that tennis is only hitting a ball with a racket or soccer is just kicking a ball, so anyone could do it. Context and nuance are important things. I don't think fungle is a great spell and can be to good, but saying it is to easy to cast use dumb. Saying that it to effective over the course of the battle because of the snare is a better argument.
There needs to be a checkbox that you click when you submit a post. "This post contains sarcasm Y/N"
Would help the discussion immensely.
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On November 10 2012 03:42 mishimaBeef wrote: Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors. How could they? I laughed so hard at the “working as intended” comment Browder (?) made when asked about the effects of the Queen patch. As if they could have foreseen all the mess it would introduce in the match-up... No, a mere look at the state of the game when it was released shows that they're mostly groping in the dark. It's pointless to assume they have some kind of superior plan and know where they're heading for. The past incoherent patching clearly shows they don't.
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On November 10 2012 03:48 Ramiz1989 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:39 Forsy wrote: How about if fungal growth only inhibits the movement of the single unit it targets (or if that's too weak, only a radius of 1 is rooted), it could still keep its 4s (or even have an immediate) for 30/40A damage at the specified radius of 2?
This will allow zerg to keep a decent AoE, without forcing the root on everything. I was thinking about something similar, but like this, it has radius of 1, and after 2 seconds, it spreads to radius of 2 - 2,5(hence the Fungal Growth), it will support micro, and it won't be as nearly as gamebreaking as it is now.
That's an original idea I haven't seen before. Good thinking. The "maximum" radius would probably have to be increased somewhat to offset the nerf I would assume? Maybe not..
Thoughts:
~allows micro to a point.
~can't chain fungal as effectively, because even if you do catch units once, the second fungal won't immediately spread to cover the whole group, which would allow at least part of your force to split
~in some ways, it could be more powerful...much like the way people dodge storms, people would start dodging the fungal "growth" part of the spell. I could see in large clashes, a fungal or two getting tossed down locking down a smallish chunk of the army. A quick reaction would allow the other player to retreat/move away from the growth range to avoid the growth of the spell. This is good, because your whole army doesn't get fungaled, but bad, because you leave behind a small chunk of your army that's going to get insta gibbed by the zerg's main force when you retreat. It would probably take some testing, maybe it would even be beneficial to eat the fungal sometimes if you're in a good concave for the fight? Definitely adds a new dynamic!
Cheers,
Ramone
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On November 10 2012 03:55 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:42 mishimaBeef wrote: Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors. How could they? I laughed so hard at the “working as intended” comment Browder (?) made when asked about the effects of the Queen patch. As if they could have foreseen all the mess it would introduce in the match-up... No, a mere look at the state of the game when it was released shows that they're mostly groping in the dark. It's pointless to assume they have some kind of superior plan and know where they're heading for. The past incoherent patching clearly shows they don't.
well, maybe so but they designed the game... i`m sure they have some idea
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On November 10 2012 03:42 mishimaBeef wrote: Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors.
B) Knows something is wrong with infestor and will be changing it as soon as the time is right (after major tournaments that are coming up).
C) A combination of A and B D) Has no clue and is just giving general "wait and see" speeches (while hoping for a new imbalanced thing to show up so they can say "See? Told you so it wasnt OP!"
E) Knows the REAL issues but is too scared to tackle them because it would mean "losing face" by admitting that their shiny "improvements" of unlimited unit selection and tight perfect movement and asymmetric production speed boosts for the races are actually terrible and cause more problems than they are worth.
My vote is for D or E ... sadly.
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you are stupid if you think blizzard would make a game today without unlimited unit selection and good movement... do you know how other people in the industry will laugh at them? they care more about their industry than our community BY THE WAY
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On November 10 2012 04:09 mishimaBeef wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 03:55 TheDwf wrote:On November 10 2012 03:42 mishimaBeef wrote: Blizzard either:
A) Knows something we don't in regards to countering infestors. How could they? I laughed so hard at the “working as intended” comment Browder (?) made when asked about the effects of the Queen patch. As if they could have foreseen all the mess it would introduce in the match-up... No, a mere look at the state of the game when it was released shows that they're mostly groping in the dark. It's pointless to assume they have some kind of superior plan and know where they're heading for. The past incoherent patching clearly shows they don't. well, maybe so but they designed the game... i`m sure they have some idea Yes, they designed the game. A game in which Roach was initially 1 supply, a game in which you could once warp Storms, a game in which having 4 BFHs in your mineral line instantly meant -20 workers, a game in which PvP was originally nothing but a 4 gate fest, etc., etc. Back then they didn't have any more hidden plan than now, they made things, saw how they went and tried to rectify if something was wrong. But they still do a lot of mistakes, and some of them could have been prevented simply by listening to sensible feedback. Yet to actually listen you have not to be stubborn, and seeing a Blizzard guy calmly stating that “BL/Infestor is not a big deal” (or something like that) just says everything about their awareness of the game's current problems.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
Ok back to the topic at hand, in terms of nerfage, I'm really in favour of a soft approach, at least initially. If that doesn't work have another go at tweaking something else
The two ideas that would maintain the infestors usefulness, but make it slightly less massable, when combined for me would be thus;
1. Keep fungal as it is, but remove the ridiculous cancelling effect it has on commands. For example, I blink forward to try and snipe some broods, get fungalled. I demand my stalkers blink back, but they get fungalled again and this order is cancelled. I thus have to spend a good chunk of time sitting spamming blink to move back, or even just move command, and hope they don't chain another fungal to salvage anything. This is just silly to me, I should be able to shift-queue commands and go back to microing or macroing elsewhere. It's the same with medivacs, when caught with fungal, I should be able to just order them to move back home or whatever, instead of having to continually spam move commands in the hope they miss a fungal.
2. 3 supply infestor, seems reasonable as a way to keep them good at holding Protoss allins, especially gateway ones, but making a Zerg max deathball slightly less ridiculous. Also makes it slightly less likely to see really high infestor counts winning games on their own, it's pretty rare but mostly silly when it happens. Leenock's sick burrow/fungal combo vs DRG that one time was a really cool play and the kind of nice useage people like to see. 25+ infestors lategame dealing with Protoss lategame armies almost by themselves are the kind of thing we don't want to see, by and large.
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Complete agree with the comment about the problem being infested terrans. It really is. The cost is goofy. Even if 20 infestors average 100 energy, thats 80 infested terrans. Infested terrans coupled with broodlings is, its kind of silly. I can appreciate not jumping the gun in favor of waiting things out to balance something, but I disagree with that assessment in this case. I think one can use his reasoning to see why infestors present a long-term problem if they remain the way they are. I say this with absolutely no disrespect to zerg players of any calibur, but seeing another zerg win a hard earned late game match with BL/Infestor unit comp, with a 6k bank. . Theres something wrong with that. I think changing the infested terran cost changes everything in a way that doesn't wreck the swarmy vision Blizz has for zerg. Give zerg a reason to spend money. Making 2000 spines because your army costs virtually nothing to maintain lategame isn't a reason to spend money. . If your being cost effective because you're micro is insane, great. Im okay with that. As it stands, its just, silly. Anyways thats not really a rant against zerg or zerg players. I just hope Blizz seriously tweaks the infestor a bit.
Also, I think Infestor could take a small nerf though, nothing big or gamebreaking. The community has a tendancy to take it to a 10 when its really like, a 4. Really, the infestor isn't THAT broken. It's the infestor plus other units that makes it such a problem. Its really a small tweak that needs to be made and not a fundamental redesign.
A side effect of this mess is that I have grown to love DRG alot more lately
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On November 10 2012 05:29 Channel Pressure wrote:Complete agree with the comment about the problem being infested terrans. It really is. The cost is goofy. Even if 20 infestors average 100 energy, thats 80 infested terrans. Infested terrans coupled with broodlings is, its kind of silly. I can appreciate not jumping the gun in favor of waiting things out to balance something, but I disagree with that assessment in this case. I think one can use his reasoning to see why infestors present a long-term problem if they remain the way they are. I say this with absolutely no disrespect to zerg players of any calibur, but seeing another zerg win a hard earned late game match with BL/Infestor unit comp, with a 6k bank. . Theres something wrong with that. I think changing the infested terran cost changes everything in a way that doesn't wreck the swarmy vision Blizz has for zerg. Give zerg a reason to spend money. Making 2000 spines because your army costs virtually nothing to maintain lategame isn't a reason to spend money. . If your being cost effective because you're micro is insane, great. Im okay with that. As it stands, its just, silly. Anyways thats not really a rant against zerg or zerg players. I just hope Blizz seriously tweaks the infestor a bit. A side effect of this mess is that I have grown to love DRG alot more lately
go join his fan club <3
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On November 10 2012 05:10 Wombat_NI wrote: Ok back to the topic at hand, in terms of nerfage, I'm really in favour of a soft approach, at least initially. If that doesn't work have another go at tweaking something else
The two ideas that would maintain the infestors usefulness, but make it slightly less massable, when combined for me would be thus;
1. Keep fungal as it is, but remove the ridiculous cancelling effect it has on commands. For example, I blink forward to try and snipe some broods, get fungalled. I demand my stalkers blink back, but they get fungalled again and this order is cancelled. I thus have to spend a good chunk of time sitting spamming blink to move back, or even just move command, and hope they don't chain another fungal to salvage anything. This is just silly to me, I should be able to shift-queue commands and go back to microing or macroing elsewhere. It's the same with medivacs, when caught with fungal, I should be able to just order them to move back home or whatever, instead of having to continually spam move commands in the hope they miss a fungal.
2. 3 supply infestor, seems reasonable as a way to keep them good at holding Protoss allins, especially gateway ones, but making a Zerg max deathball slightly less ridiculous. Also makes it slightly less likely to see really high infestor counts winning games on their own, it's pretty rare but mostly silly when it happens. Leenock's sick burrow/fungal combo vs DRG that one time was a really cool play and the kind of nice useage people like to see. 25+ infestors lategame dealing with Protoss lategame armies almost by themselves are the kind of thing we don't want to see, by and large. 1. Yep ... Fungal desperately needs to be changed, because there is nothing to be done once your important units are "caught" and the range is really HUGE (compared to things like autoturret and Seeker Missile from the Raven which both have a range of 6). One way of lessening the impact of Fungal could be a change to the movement mechanic which forces units to spread out instead of clump up. That way there would be less targets and you could just make air units immune to the spell altogether (there is still the Infested Terran as AA defense) and have it become a relatively fair spell. Fiddling around with the range of it might also be an option to add more risk to the Infestor.
2. An increase in supply wont really change the fact that the Infestor adds an insane amount of very powerful and free (apart from 25 energy) units which dont require any resources to reproduce. Infested Terran is the second spell of the Infestor which desperately needs to be changed just as well as Fungal. It is a seriously bad joke that the race which is supposed to be reproducing its units constantly has an insane amount of free unit generators. That really was one of the terrible ideas of the devs.
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It's funny, because many protoss will tell you the problem are infested terrans. And many terran will tell you the problem is fungal.
You see, the problem is both and none of them. The problem is how versatile the infestor is. It's all rounder, a jack of all trades, that's the problem with the infestor. It softcounter and hardcounter most stuff in the game.
Fungal growth
Long cast range. Instant, no travel time. Good AoE damage, good against blobs. Root to stop enemy play, which works to connect banelings, protect other units, good to hold drops and air harassment. Anti air / Anti ground.
Infested terrans
Long cast range No supply cost, low energy cost. Good DPS vs Air and Ground at low energy cost. Upgrades improve them. Low movement speed, still, it synergizes effectively with fungal. Good at harassing.
Neural parasite :
Long cast range Effectively counters massive units aside Ultralisk. Even mothership.
Burrow
Gives them an escape mechanism paired with their decent movement speed. That means, while ghosts and HT's are normally traded to do their work, infestors are not, so investing on them is more cost efficient. Open options to be able to harass with IT's
From a game designer stand point, the unit is crazy by it's own.
Propossal ?
Keep 100 mineral cost for hidras. Decrease 25 gas cost of hidras. Give them an upgrade to be faster out of creep. And by fast, i mean almost as fast as roaches. No range upgrade needed, they get it by default.
Infestor
Decrease fungal parasite damage to 10(20) or even remove it entirely. It's not about damaging, but making easier for your units to connect or get combat advantadge. Increase IT energy cost to 50. IT's should be a choice you make not a 2 fungals lolol 40 eggs "surprise muthafackah". Remove Neural parasite.
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On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors?
Except that infestors and Templar are good vs multiple units.... building ghost in TvZ is simple to counter one unit... it has no other viable role once infestor are gone
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On November 10 2012 05:47 Godwrath wrote: It's funny, because many protoss will tell you the problem are infested terrans. And many terran will tell you the problem is fungal.
You see, the problem is both and none of them. The problem is how versatile the infestor is. It's all rounder, a jack of all trades, that's the problem with the infestor. It softcounter and hardcounter most stuff in the game.
Fungal growth
Long cast range. Instant, no travel time. Good AoE damage, good against blobs. Root to stop enemy play, which works to connect banelings, protect other units, good to hold drops and air harassment. Anti air / Anti ground.
Infested terrans
Long cast range No supply cost, low energy cost. Good DPS vs Air and Ground at low energy cost. Upgrades improve them. Low movement speed, still, it synergizes effectively with fungal. Good at harassing.
Neural parasite :
Long cast range Effectively counters massive units aside Ultralisk. Even mothership.
Burrow
Gives them an escape mechanism paired with their decent movement speed. That means, while ghosts and HT's are normally traded to do their work, infestors are not, so investing on them is more cost efficient. Open options to be able to harass with IT's
From a game designer stand point, the unit is crazy by it's own.
Propossal ?
Keep 100 mineral cost for hidras. Decrease 25 gas cost of hidras. Give them an upgrade to be faster out of creep. And by fast, i mean almost as fast as roaches. No range upgrade needed, they get it by default.
Infestor
Decrease fungal parasite damage to 10(20) or even remove it entirely. It's not about damaging, but making easier for your units to connect or get combat advantadge. Increase IT energy cost to 50. IT's should be a choice you make not a 2 fungals lolol 40 eggs "surprise muthafackah". Remove Neural parasite.
Were Hidras a scrapped HOTS unit?. . . and Fungal Parasite eh? When did they get that spell? (teasing you of course, i know what you ment)
As an aside, Fungal Growth imo isn't broken. Zerg really does need it against terran. I cringe to see bio go crazy against zerg as that is usually the time terran would have a good, even-handed response to much of what zerg throws at him, in the absence of a rooting fungal growth. And its pretty fair as it stands.
I've seen DRG handle himself without fungal, but that doesn't mean fungal shouldnt be around. It adds a different dynamic to that matchup.
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On November 10 2012 05:48 NKexquisite wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors? Except that infestors and Templar are good vs multiple units.... building ghost in TvZ is simple to counter one unit... And it doesn't even fulfill this role. The main use for Ghosts nowadays in TvZ is nuke harass. You can only carpet EMP or Snipe Infestors if your opponent is horrible enough not to make any Overseer.
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On November 10 2012 05:53 TheDwf wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 05:48 NKexquisite wrote:On November 08 2012 09:57 KovuTalli wrote:On November 08 2012 09:46 Cloak wrote:
Whether or not it's common, there are obvious counters to 17 Sentries. Where are the obvious counters to 17 Infestors? Snipe? Since it's now changed to be vs Psi units. and Feedback? Toss Seem to like it vs Ghosts/banshee/medivac/thor/raven/battlecruiser, So why not infestors too? Am I seriously the only one to think of things? I mean ghosts are used vs HT's too. Okay I will admit, it's a bit of a commitment to get enough HT's/Ghosts to counter 15+ infestors, but if it wins you the game?. Also even if zerg maxes back out on lings/other units after, still got storm right? and I know snipe isn't as good vs other units anymore but 8+ ghosts can still do decent damage output, even with just Amove. These units are basically designed for anti caster roles and yet no one seems to use them Vs Infestors? Except that infestors and Templar are good vs multiple units.... building ghost in TvZ is simple to counter one unit... And it doesn't even fulfill this role. The main use for Ghosts nowadays in TvZ is nuke harass. You can only carpet EMP or Snipe Infestors if your opponent is horrible enough not to make any Overseer. Doesn't even need Overseers tbh, 1-2 lucky fungals (esp for progamers who can see the ripple) and the BLs shred your ghosts.
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As an aside, Fungal Growth imo isn't broken. Zerg really does need it against terran. I cringe to see bio go crazy against zerg as that is usually the time terran would have a good, even-handed response to much of what zerg throws at him, in the absence of a rooting fungal growth. And its pretty fair as it stands.
I find the damage to be the most problematic with the spell. Your banelings can still connect, and your corruptors should have an easier time cleaning vikings supported by IT's that way. The damage from fungal makes it a multipurpose spell, allowing infestors to be a more jack of all trades instead of a support caster.
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On November 10 2012 05:57 Godwrath wrote:Show nested quote +As an aside, Fungal Growth imo isn't broken. Zerg really does need it against terran. I cringe to see bio go crazy against zerg as that is usually the time terran would have a good, even-handed response to much of what zerg throws at him, in the absence of a rooting fungal growth. And its pretty fair as it stands.
I find the damage to be the most problematic with the spell. Your banelings can still connect, and your corruptors should have an easier time cleaning vikings supported by IT's that way. The damage from fungal makes it a multipurpose spell, allowing infestors to be a more jack of all trades instead of a support caster.
Well. . i'm not sure if the infestor needs to fit the "support caster" cookie cutout. Fungal growth presents a unique problem for players that I don't believe is cumbersome to the point of significant balance issues. As it stands the cost of fungal growth negates in my opinion other issues with fungal growth (that are really just me saying, it sucks to get FG'ed ). Zerg really does need both the root and the damage of fg as it stands. Some protoss builds would be unmanagable by zerg if they didnt have a good response, like that of fungal growth.
Ide cite as evidence the extreme problems zerg can have if you hit with some kind of blink timing right before infestors. FG can be the difference between a win and a loss, depending on the map terrain. And thats good
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I had an original intent for posting on this forum, but after reading (most of) this thread something else has come to my attention.
Originally I wanted to ask why pro level Terrans no longer use EMP to deal with Infestors?
Changes in the meta game seem to happen so quickly, and those changes are definitely visible in professional play styles, strategies, and mechanics. I realize when snipe was nerfed people by and large stopped using Ghosts. Now that Ghosts are out of the meta, I can't convey how often I watch Zerg players sit with their Infestors in a tight, exposed pack, away from any detection. With that meta shift, why not bring Ghosts back into play? Pow pow... quick 2 EMPs before an attack.
Having said that I realize there must be some reason, a very good reason, professionals aren't doing so. I just wanted to hear the community's opinions on what they think that reason may be.
I've seen some very intelligent, well thought and educated points and opinions on Infestors here!! (for whatever that's worth coming from a newb). In my humble opinion all of these points are completely correct in content. Perhaps a slight shift in viewing paradigm could be revealing?
It seems to me that all the complains about Infestors are, while correct and worthy of note, not actually themselves the problems; rather, they are symptoms of a larger, singular problem. That problem kinda piggy-backs on the points above I've read stating that they have too many uses. The true issue with infestors is that they are entirely reactive in nature.
The Zerg player utilizing Infestors has no offensive initiative whatsoever; they need only not make a mistake in order to win. To EMP, snipe, or feedback Infestors requires your attention, APM, and accurate micro. If you make a mistake in doing so, the Zerg player comes out on top. And why does he come out on top? Not because he took the offensive initiative and succeeded, but because his opponent - taking the offensive initiative because he must - made a mistake in doing so.
Same goes for fanning your units as you attack into the Zerg. Does the Zerg player need to worry about fanning his units? Nope, worst case scenario he must fall back and force you to re-fan. Eventually you make a mistake in doing so, your units clump, and get fungaled. But if the non-Zerg player does not take offensive initiative, eventually an end-game army marches across the map to destroy him. During such an attack the Zerg player must only keep his Infestors behind his main attack line, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake. Meanwhile his opponent's APM must be thrice the Zerg player's to ensure proper attack formation.
What needs to be changed about the Infestor is that they must require some offensive initiative. What is imbalanced about the Zerg race right now is that - assuming all other factors equal; each player is equally skilled in strategy, macro, micro, mechanics, etc. etc. - the Zerg player will always win due to never having to take initiative. As long as that holds true, the game will be forever broken.
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you guys crying about infestors... watch Lucifron vs Stephano (LIVE) @ Stim to the Win .. all i can say now to you ragekids and flamers L2P!
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Infestor needs a dramatic nerf, but the shit people are proposing in this topic is ridiculous. Just read someone who proposed eliminating fungal damage, removing NP, and making IT cost 50 energy. Retarded suggestions like this is probably what makes Blizzard think the community is so volatile and emotionally invested.
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On November 10 2012 06:21 ognennyy wrote: I had an original intent for posting on this forum, but after reading (most of) this thread something else has come to my attention.
Originally I wanted to ask why pro level Terrans no longer use EMP to deal with Infestors?
Changes in the meta game seem to happen so quickly, and those changes are definitely visible in professional play styles, strategies, and mechanics. I realize when snipe was nerfed people by and large stopped using Ghosts. Now that Ghosts are out of the meta, I can't convey how often I watch Zerg players sit with their Infestors in a tight, exposed pack, away from any detection. With that meta shift, why not bring Ghosts back into play? Pow pow... quick 2 EMPs before an attack.
Having said that I realize there must be some reason, a very good reason, professionals aren't doing so. I just wanted to hear the community's opinions on what they think that reason may be.
I've seen some very intelligent, well thought and educated points and opinions on Infestors here!! (for whatever that's worth coming from a newb). In my humble opinion all of these points are completely correct in content. Perhaps a slight shift in viewing paradigm could be revealing?
It seems to me that all the complains about Infestors are, while correct and worthy of note, not actually themselves the problems; rather, they are symptoms of a larger, singular problem. That problem kinda piggy-backs on the points above I've read stating that they have too many uses. The true issue with infestors is that they are entirely reactive in nature.
The Zerg player utilizing Infestors has no offensive initiative whatsoever; they need only not make a mistake in order to win. To EMP, snipe, or feedback Infestors requires your attention, APM, and accurate micro. If you make a mistake in doing so, the Zerg player comes out on top. And why does he come out on top? Not because he took the offensive initiative and succeeded, but because his opponent - taking the offensive initiative because he must - made a mistake in doing so.
Same goes for fanning your units as you attack into the Zerg. Does the Zerg player need to worry about fanning his units? Nope, worst case scenario he must fall back and force you to re-fan. Eventually you make a mistake in doing so, your units clump, and get fungaled. But if the non-Zerg player does not take offensive initiative, eventually an end-game army marches across the map to destroy him. During such an attack the Zerg player must only keep his Infestors behind his main attack line, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake. Meanwhile his opponent's APM must be thrice the Zerg player's to ensure proper attack formation.
What needs to be changed about the Infestor is that they must require some offensive initiative. What is imbalanced about the Zerg race right now is that - assuming all other factors equal; each player is equally skilled in strategy, macro, micro, mechanics, etc. etc. - the Zerg player will always win due to never having to take initiative. As long as that holds true, the game will be forever broken.
I've been curious as to why terrans don't use EMP against infestors either. I've heard some of the reasons but, I duno, I really think someone at a high level ought to try it out. Actually, MVP_Keen did this week. He didnt have a ton of ghosts or army period for that matter, but he showed a willingness to emp. It was successful too. I wonder if he was hoping to do more with that? I hope so.
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Just wondering, but how come Fungal Growth doesn't do friendly damage? Both Storm and EMP affects friendly units aswell.
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On November 10 2012 06:30 FabledIntegral wrote: Infestor needs a dramatic nerf, but the shit people are proposing in this topic is ridiculous. Just read someone who proposed eliminating fungal damage, removing NP, and making IT cost 50 energy. Retarded suggestions like this is probably what makes Blizzard think the community is so volatile and emotionally invested.
I bet blizz would appreciate constructive criticism of either the communitys idea's or the infestor rather than a slightly rough tone for your fellow nerds.
50 energy IT isn't a "retarded suggestion" (your words). Its reasonable, at the least to discuss.
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On November 10 2012 06:21 ognennyy wrote: I had an original intent for posting on this forum, but after reading (most of) this thread something else has come to my attention.
Originally I wanted to ask why pro level Terrans no longer use EMP to deal with Infestors?
Changes in the meta game seem to happen so quickly, and those changes are definitely visible in professional play styles, strategies, and mechanics. I realize when snipe was nerfed people by and large stopped using Ghosts. Now that Ghosts are out of the meta, I can't convey how often I watch Zerg players sit with their Infestors in a tight, exposed pack, away from any detection. With that meta shift, why not bring Ghosts back into play? Pow pow... quick 2 EMPs before an attack. Well, just open a unit test map, tightly clump 15 Infestors with full energy and count the amount of EMP it would take to deplete all of their energy. Then think about a real game situation in which there are BLs and Overseers around, and you will know why Ghosts don't work against Infestors.
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On November 10 2012 06:30 FabledIntegral wrote: Infestor needs a dramatic nerf, but the shit people are proposing in this topic is ridiculous. Just read someone who proposed eliminating fungal damage, removing NP, and making IT cost 50 energy. Retarded suggestions like this is probably what makes Blizzard think the community is so volatile and emotionally invested.
Make your suggestions aswell ?
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On November 10 2012 06:32 Prog455 wrote: Just wondering, but how come Fungal Growth doesn't do friendly damage? Both Storm and EMP affects friendly units aswell.
Zerglings mostly.
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Personally it seems like sc2 lacks something that BW had.
In BW you had more time to react and there was always more you could do to defend and get out of sticky situations, this gave games more length and more of a scrappy "sport" type of feel. But something about SC2 makes it so volatile that single mistakes have a rather high penchant for loosing you the game at high levels (i believe that singular mistakes in BW did not hurt you as much in terms of timings/defense/engagements as singular mistakes in SC2 do, I could be stupid though)).
I think that the infestor problem might stem from the warp gate mechanic and the FF ability. I think that because the FF ability in large engagements is so strong, along with the strong and safe ability to instantly reinforce on site through warp gates, zergs cannot often compete with this in a natural zergy way. They cannot use their ability for widespread production and economy to stream in units to weaken and defeat an encroaching protoss army because their units simply are not cost effective against a death ball without something extra like fungal. This is why I think in order for us to have found a balance in zvp the infestor fungal growth spell had to be made as strong as it is.
If there were no warp gates, FF's and the infestor was changed, Protoss death balls would still be an issue for zergs, but they would be able to cut off reinforcements and have much greater cost efficiency in actual fights against the death ball because it would have no FF's.
I realize that SC2 has developed around these features to a high degree and that changing them means changing pretty much everything, and it's possible there is some way to balance the infestor and make things more stable, but for now this seems to be how it is.
TL:DR The current game state seems to be that because of FF and warpgates, Zergs simply need the infestor or some kind of AOE in order to gain some measure of cost efficiency against a protoss death ball that instantly reinforces and divides and conquers your units with a generous helping of force fields.
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On November 10 2012 06:33 Channel Pressure wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:30 FabledIntegral wrote: Infestor needs a dramatic nerf, but the shit people are proposing in this topic is ridiculous. Just read someone who proposed eliminating fungal damage, removing NP, and making IT cost 50 energy. Retarded suggestions like this is probably what makes Blizzard think the community is so volatile and emotionally invested. I bet blizz would appreciate constructive criticism of either the communitys idea's or the infestor rather than a slightly rough tone for your fellow nerds. 50 energy IT isn't a "retarded suggestion" (your words). Its reasonable, at the least to discuss.
The suggestion was having all three of those occur simultaneously.
I don't agree that 50 energy IT is a good idea, but I can understand it being suggested. I cannot understand all three of those being a simultaneously suggested change.
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On November 10 2012 06:41 FlilFlam wrote: Personally it seems like sc2 lacks something that BW had.
In BW you had more time to react and there was always more you could do to defend and get out of sticky situations, this gave games more length and more of a scrappy "sport" type of feel. But something about SC2 makes it so volatile that single mistakes have a rather high penchant for loosing you the game at high levels (i believe that singular mistakes in BW did not hurt you as much in terms of timings/defense/engagements as singular mistakes in SC2 do, I could be stupid though)).
I think that the infestor problem might stem from the warp gate mechanic and the FF ability. I think that because the FF ability in large engagements is so strong, along with the strong and safe ability to instantly reinforce on site through warp gates, zergs cannot often compete with this in a natural zergy way. They cannot use their ability for widespread production and economy to stream in units to weaken and defeat an encroaching protoss army because their units simply are not cost effective against a death ball without something extra like fungal. This is why I think in order for us to have found a balance in zvp the infestor fungal growth spell had to be made as strong as it is.
If there were no warp gates, FF's and the infestor was changed, Protoss death balls would still be an issue for zergs, but they would be able to cut off reinforcements and have much greater cost efficiency in actual fights against the death ball because it would have no FF's.
I realize that SC2 has developed around these features to a high degree and that changing them means changing pretty much everything, and it's possible there is some way to balance the infestor and make things more stable, but for now this seems to be how it is.
TL:DR The current game state seems to be that because of FF and warpgates, Zergs simply need the infestor or some kind of AOE in order to gain some measure of cost efficiency against a protoss death ball that instantly reinforces and divides and conquers your units with a generous helping of force fields.
With respect to this and I appreciate your thoughts here, it would be unreasonably difficult for protoss to fight zerg without forcefields. It is precisely the swarmy nature of zerg that requires forcefields. I think warpgate tech is non-sequitr (sp, too lazy to google!) here. I don't know if you've ever fooled around with playing toss on bnet but alot of early and even midgate engagements stand or fall on good forcefields. There is a dynamic between forcefields and zergs reaction to them that makes the matchup interesting. I think infestors are necessairy later when toss has stronger unit compositions that zerg would trade too ineffeciently against (as it seems protoss is intended to have a highly cost effective army overall). Things like +2stalkers in large groups, sentrys, zealots in large quantities with upgrades. . Those call for sufficient zerg units later in the matchup. But in any case, forcefields and WG tech really have much to do with the general design of toss.
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On November 10 2012 06:48 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:33 Channel Pressure wrote:On November 10 2012 06:30 FabledIntegral wrote: Infestor needs a dramatic nerf, but the shit people are proposing in this topic is ridiculous. Just read someone who proposed eliminating fungal damage, removing NP, and making IT cost 50 energy. Retarded suggestions like this is probably what makes Blizzard think the community is so volatile and emotionally invested. I bet blizz would appreciate constructive criticism of either the communitys idea's or the infestor rather than a slightly rough tone for your fellow nerds. 50 energy IT isn't a "retarded suggestion" (your words). Its reasonable, at the least to discuss. The suggestion was having all three of those occur simultaneously. I don't agree that 50 energy IT is a good idea, but I can understand it being suggested. I cannot understand all three of those being a simultaneously suggested change.
Completely agree. all three of those occuring is, silly. That seems more like a tisk-tisk to zerg rather than a reasonable change.
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On November 10 2012 06:21 ognennyy wrote: I had an original intent for posting on this forum, but after reading (most of) this thread something else has come to my attention.
Originally I wanted to ask why pro level Terrans no longer use EMP to deal with Infestors?
Changes in the meta game seem to happen so quickly, and those changes are definitely visible in professional play styles, strategies, and mechanics. I realize when snipe was nerfed people by and large stopped using Ghosts. Now that Ghosts are out of the meta, I can't convey how often I watch Zerg players sit with their Infestors in a tight, exposed pack, away from any detection. With that meta shift, why not bring Ghosts back into play? Pow pow... quick 2 EMPs before an attack.
Having said that I realize there must be some reason, a very good reason, professionals aren't doing so. I just wanted to hear the community's opinions on what they think that reason may be.
I've seen some very intelligent, well thought and educated points and opinions on Infestors here!! (for whatever that's worth coming from a newb). In my humble opinion all of these points are completely correct in content. Perhaps a slight shift in viewing paradigm could be revealing?
It seems to me that all the complains about Infestors are, while correct and worthy of note, not actually themselves the problems; rather, they are symptoms of a larger, singular problem. That problem kinda piggy-backs on the points above I've read stating that they have too many uses. The true issue with infestors is that they are entirely reactive in nature.
The Zerg player utilizing Infestors has no offensive initiative whatsoever; they need only not make a mistake in order to win. To EMP, snipe, or feedback Infestors requires your attention, APM, and accurate micro. If you make a mistake in doing so, the Zerg player comes out on top. And why does he come out on top? Not because he took the offensive initiative and succeeded, but because his opponent - taking the offensive initiative because he must - made a mistake in doing so.
Same goes for fanning your units as you attack into the Zerg. Does the Zerg player need to worry about fanning his units? Nope, worst case scenario he must fall back and force you to re-fan. Eventually you make a mistake in doing so, your units clump, and get fungaled. But if the non-Zerg player does not take offensive initiative, eventually an end-game army marches across the map to destroy him. During such an attack the Zerg player must only keep his Infestors behind his main attack line, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake. Meanwhile his opponent's APM must be thrice the Zerg player's to ensure proper attack formation.
What needs to be changed about the Infestor is that they must require some offensive initiative. What is imbalanced about the Zerg race right now is that - assuming all other factors equal; each player is equally skilled in strategy, macro, micro, mechanics, etc. etc. - the Zerg player will always win due to never having to take initiative. As long as that holds true, the game will be forever broken.
People keep asking this question without listening to the answers. So here they are very succinctly.
Why Ghosts are not used in TvZ to counter Infestors:
1) Zerg Detection: Zerg has incredibly robust and cheap detection, both with spores, and with 0 supply overseers, which are also highly mobile. This makes cloaking impossible against any competent zerg.
2) Broodlords: Broodlords, when positioned properly, will prevent Ghosts from getting within range of any infestors. On top of this, Ghosts aren't a viable tech option against broodlords anymore, after the snipe nerfs.
3) EMP radius and effect: Assuming that it is possible to EMP, it has a very small radius (currently 1.5), and Infestors have a very large hitbox. This means that one EMP will only hit ~2 infestors. On top of this, you need multiple EMPs to drain all of the energy off of a full energy infestor. In general, so many ghosts and EMPs are needed to pull off 'blacket EMPing' of 20 infestors, that the resource and supply sink is so huge that it isn't viable.
4) It's a coinflip: Given the numbers, a terran is only likely to be effective with ghosts if the zerg makes mistakes whilst the terran does everything perfectly. In other words, the terran has to invest hugely for an uncertain return - a lot of people will be a lot more comfortable with more tanks. 5) Cost and Tech Switches: Ghosts are obviously expensive to tech to and build, with their sole purpose being to kill Infestors. On top of this, to be highly effective, you need a fair number of them. This is a giant cost and supply sink for a terran player, especially when ghosts are useless against any unit that isn't an infestor. If the zerg switches into a Ultra based composition when you have 15 ghosts in your army, you are going to die. This means that massing Ghosts is an even bigger risk on top of all of the other factors.
There are too many factors working against Ghosts in the matchup for them to be a viable tech option anymore.
Edit: As for the infestor, fungal needs some sort of root/slow effect due to the micro potential of bio. If the zerg couldn't do some kind of counter-micro to high level bio play, the zerg would just die because of the micro potential of the units (epic splitting vs a move zerg units). The problem with this is that the counter micro is so much easier to pull off than the bio play. This is purely a design problem with the game that comes about when you give different units different degrees of micro potential (IE. Microing marines well improves their effectiveness 5 times more than microing zerglings well), and to be honest, I don't know how to balance these issues out if you want to maintain a diverse game. Realistically, unless all of the races are mechanically identical, there will always be issues with game design, as is seen with the infestor and fungal growth.
Infested Terrans are ridiculous. This has been explained well enough by those before me.
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On November 10 2012 06:52 Channel Pressure wrote:
With respect to this and I appreciate your thoughts here, it would be unreasonably difficult for protoss to fight zerg without forcefields. It is precisely the swarmy nature of zerg that requires forcefields. I think warpgate tech is non-sequitr (sp, too lazy to google!) here. I don't know if you've ever fooled around with playing toss on bnet but alot of early and even midgate engagements stand or fall on good forcefields. There is a dynamic between forcefields and zergs reaction to them that makes the matchup interesting. I think infestors are necessairy later when toss has stronger unit compositions that zerg would trade too ineffeciently against (as it seems protoss is intended to have a highly cost effective army overall). Things like +2stalkers in large groups, sentrys, zealots in large quantities with upgrades. Those call for sufficient zerg units later in the matchup. But in any case, forcefields and WG tech really have much to do with the general design of toss.
Though there might be an interesting dynamic between force fields and the way zerg reacts to them, is it really that interesting compared to games where players have short and long term options other than force field? Is it good to have games come down to FF placement so often? I think this is the sort of volatility that makes the game harder to balance and stabilize.
This echoes my sentiment toward the Infestor. In your own words Infestors are necessary later in the game. I think that a lack of options is not good for the versatility of the game, and the infestor being a requisite to defeat large protoss armies is to me not conducive to the type of play I enjoy; not interesting.
What if instead of warp gates protoss had unit production times reduced in order to allow them to defend themselves early and to macro against a zerg late game? Sure there might need to be some unit balance changes made in terms of hp armor or attack, and the sentry would need to be given something different because as it is FF's are it's main purpose. And yes the design of protoss would be radically changed, but i think it's a discussion we should be having.
In my opinion warp gates are a part of the infestor problem because they strengthen any agression and any deathball with a warp prism in it, and this contributes greatly to a zergs inability to be cost effective without infestors.
Maybe in legacy of the void they could do it without pissing everyone off... We can only hope...
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On November 09 2012 23:44 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 23:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 22:25 MWY wrote:On November 09 2012 22:17 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough. Thats a good point.. I don't play terran but every time a see a marine-tank push in a casted game, it gets annihilated before it does any damage, no matter if tanks are sieged or marines split. Usually terrans are pretty far behind then. players tend to delay tank push and then walk so far up on creep, most maps are easy to get surrounds on and besides unless u havent noticed, the banelings are always well spread out for the zerg pros and they are always targetting marine balls with those banelings, zoning the marines out... If you dont know shit about something, dont comment please. That is the problem. Creep is much harder to contain now. So terrans are pretty much force to walk on creep if they want to hit before BLs. Yes, zergs have gotten much better at splitting their banes so 1 tank shot doesn't kil 4-5 banes. Problem is what can Terran do to counter at this? Terrans with good micro should trade well against Zerg with good micro but it just isn't happening now...
why is that? isnt it a good thing that well micro trade equally to get a more refined game?
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On November 10 2012 07:09 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 09 2012 23:44 vthree wrote:On November 09 2012 23:25 NEEDZMOAR wrote:On November 09 2012 22:25 MWY wrote:On November 09 2012 22:17 Rabiator wrote:On November 09 2012 22:13 FeyFey wrote:On November 09 2012 21:52 Sadist wrote:On November 09 2012 21:43 Glurkenspurk wrote:On November 09 2012 21:30 xAdra wrote: Leenock vs Byun tonight, GSTL game 8.
Byun makes the singular mistake of having his vikings clumped up for a single second. Chain fungals kill every single viking together, and byun dies to a single-sided beatdown by broodlords.
I can't express how sick I am at watching any progame with late game zergs. And don't act like this is the first time it's happened; every single TvZ I watch recently ends in such a tragedy. So like fumbling the ball in football, or walking into a mine in bw or mistiming a powerup in quake? One mistake can cost losses in like.. every game ever. Especially a big one like not splitting your units in sc2. where are the mistakes zerg makes that costs them the game instantly in late game? Hell at any stage of the game? They got qqed out of them game. Well I would say the Banelings get killed by a tank is still there and the Broodlords get hit by multiple Seeker Missiles. But it can't be long before Zergs find out that they can actually split units. Or even worse they find out that they are the reason why there are oversupply abilities for the other races and use their own. Banelings getting killed by tanks isnt a Zerg mistake, because it doesnt matter. In the games I see there are maybe a few dead Banelings, but the well-spread Terran army still gets annihilated because there are too many lings on the map and they are far to easy (1a-move every once in a while) to use while the countermeasure (Marine-split) takes A LOT more micro to pull off ... and then its still not enough. Thats a good point.. I don't play terran but every time a see a marine-tank push in a casted game, it gets annihilated before it does any damage, no matter if tanks are sieged or marines split. Usually terrans are pretty far behind then. players tend to delay tank push and then walk so far up on creep, most maps are easy to get surrounds on and besides unless u havent noticed, the banelings are always well spread out for the zerg pros and they are always targetting marine balls with those banelings, zoning the marines out... If you dont know shit about something, dont comment please. That is the problem. Creep is much harder to contain now. So terrans are pretty much force to walk on creep if they want to hit before BLs. Yes, zergs have gotten much better at splitting their banes so 1 tank shot doesn't kil 4-5 banes. Problem is what can Terran do to counter at this? Terrans with good micro should trade well against Zerg with good micro but it just isn't happening now... why is that? isnt it a good thing that well micro trade equally to get a more refined game? Only if micro trading vs micro trading makes both sides come out even. In this case, the Zerg player tends to come out ahead.
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On November 10 2012 07:07 FlilFlam wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:52 Channel Pressure wrote:
With respect to this and I appreciate your thoughts here, it would be unreasonably difficult for protoss to fight zerg without forcefields. It is precisely the swarmy nature of zerg that requires forcefields. I think warpgate tech is non-sequitr (sp, too lazy to google!) here. I don't know if you've ever fooled around with playing toss on bnet but alot of early and even midgate engagements stand or fall on good forcefields. There is a dynamic between forcefields and zergs reaction to them that makes the matchup interesting. I think infestors are necessairy later when toss has stronger unit compositions that zerg would trade too ineffeciently against (as it seems protoss is intended to have a highly cost effective army overall). Things like +2stalkers in large groups, sentrys, zealots in large quantities with upgrades. Those call for sufficient zerg units later in the matchup. But in any case, forcefields and WG tech really have much to do with the general design of toss.
Though there might be an interesting dynamic between force fields and the way zerg reacts to them, is it really that interesting compared to games where players have short and long term options other than force field? Is it good to have games come down to FF placement so often? I think this is the sort of volatility that makes the game harder to balance and stabilize. This echoes my sentiment toward the Infestor. In your own words Infestors are necessary later in the game. I think that a lack of options is not good for the versatility of the game, and the infestor being a requisite to defeat large protoss armies is to me not conducive to the type of play I enjoy; not interesting. What if instead of warp gates protoss had unit production times reduced in order to allow them to defend themselves early and to macro against a zerg late game? Sure there might need to be some unit balance changes made in terms of hp armor or attack, and the sentry would need to be given something different because as it is FF's are it's main purpose. And yes the design of protoss would be radically changed, but i think it's a discussion we should be having. In my opinion warp gates are a part of the infestor problem because they strengthen any agression and any deathball with a warp prism in it, and this contributes greatly to a zergs inability to be cost effective without infestors. Maybe in legacy of the void they could do it without pissing everyone off... We can only hope...
I think I would share your perspective on a particular unit being necessairy leading to staleness. . SC suffers from that a bit but its a very small problem I think. But I agree with that point to a degree (though zerg does have alternatives in mid game versus toss, still, point taken). To the point of volatility, I dont think thats a flaw of starcraft. In fact I think thats the mark of longevity in a sport. Combat sports and Football can also have an extraordinarily high level of volatility. I think it keeps things fresh in the right way. There is a fine line between volatility and randomness, and I confess at times starcraft can feel random. I don't believe it is random, just that an infinitely small decision that effect the outcome of a game in a way that seems too harsh. But again, this is an attribute of high level competition I think.
But even in saying that I agree with your points with the exception of the warp gate thing. I've never really understood why some people hate WG or think its imbalanced. I guess i don't have anything to add to that point but that WG seems to be, working as intended.
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On November 10 2012 07:04 ParamouR wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 06:21 ognennyy wrote: I had an original intent for posting on this forum, but after reading (most of) this thread something else has come to my attention.
Originally I wanted to ask why pro level Terrans no longer use EMP to deal with Infestors?
Changes in the meta game seem to happen so quickly, and those changes are definitely visible in professional play styles, strategies, and mechanics. I realize when snipe was nerfed people by and large stopped using Ghosts. Now that Ghosts are out of the meta, I can't convey how often I watch Zerg players sit with their Infestors in a tight, exposed pack, away from any detection. With that meta shift, why not bring Ghosts back into play? Pow pow... quick 2 EMPs before an attack.
Having said that I realize there must be some reason, a very good reason, professionals aren't doing so. I just wanted to hear the community's opinions on what they think that reason may be.
I've seen some very intelligent, well thought and educated points and opinions on Infestors here!! (for whatever that's worth coming from a newb). In my humble opinion all of these points are completely correct in content. Perhaps a slight shift in viewing paradigm could be revealing?
It seems to me that all the complains about Infestors are, while correct and worthy of note, not actually themselves the problems; rather, they are symptoms of a larger, singular problem. That problem kinda piggy-backs on the points above I've read stating that they have too many uses. The true issue with infestors is that they are entirely reactive in nature.
The Zerg player utilizing Infestors has no offensive initiative whatsoever; they need only not make a mistake in order to win. To EMP, snipe, or feedback Infestors requires your attention, APM, and accurate micro. If you make a mistake in doing so, the Zerg player comes out on top. And why does he come out on top? Not because he took the offensive initiative and succeeded, but because his opponent - taking the offensive initiative because he must - made a mistake in doing so.
Same goes for fanning your units as you attack into the Zerg. Does the Zerg player need to worry about fanning his units? Nope, worst case scenario he must fall back and force you to re-fan. Eventually you make a mistake in doing so, your units clump, and get fungaled. But if the non-Zerg player does not take offensive initiative, eventually an end-game army marches across the map to destroy him. During such an attack the Zerg player must only keep his Infestors behind his main attack line, waiting for his opponent to make a mistake. Meanwhile his opponent's APM must be thrice the Zerg player's to ensure proper attack formation.
What needs to be changed about the Infestor is that they must require some offensive initiative. What is imbalanced about the Zerg race right now is that - assuming all other factors equal; each player is equally skilled in strategy, macro, micro, mechanics, etc. etc. - the Zerg player will always win due to never having to take initiative. As long as that holds true, the game will be forever broken. People keep asking this question without listening to the answers. So here they are very succinctly. Why Ghosts are not used in TvZ to counter Infestors: 1) Zerg Detection: Zerg has incredibly robust and cheap detection, both with spores, and with 0 supply overseers, which are also highly mobile. This makes cloaking impossible against any competent zerg. 2) Broodlords: Broodlords, when positioned properly, will prevent Ghosts from getting within range of any infestors. On top of this, Ghosts aren't a viable tech option against broodlords anymore, after the snipe nerfs. 3) EMP radius and effect: Assuming that it is possible to EMP, it has a very small radius (currently 1.5), and Infestors have a very large hitbox. This means that one EMP will only hit ~2 infestors. On top of this, you need multiple EMPs to drain all of the energy off of a full energy infestor. In general, so many ghosts and EMPs are needed to pull off 'blacket EMPing' of 20 infestors, that the resource and supply sink is so huge that it isn't viable. 4) It's a coinflip: Given the numbers, a terran is only likely to be effective with ghosts if the zerg makes mistakes whilst the terran does everything perfectly. In other words, the terran has to invest hugely for an uncertain return - a lot of people will be a lot more comfortable with more tanks. 5) Cost and Tech Switches: Ghosts are obviously expensive to tech to and build, with their sole purpose being to kill Infestors. On top of this, to be highly effective, you need a fair number of them. This is a giant cost and supply sink for a terran player, especially when ghosts are useless against any unit that isn't an infestor. If the zerg switches into a Ultra based composition when you have 15 ghosts in your army, you are going to die. This means that massing Ghosts is an even bigger risk on top of all of the other factors. There are too many factors working against Ghosts in the matchup for them to be a viable tech option anymore.
Don't forget about queens. Ever since the range increase they've just become easier to use and ghosts are pretty much the only useful unit against them in late-game attacking situations. Sure, numbers of units are good against queens, but the numbers are generally in zerg's favour in the lategame because of the very existence of queens during the early-mid-lategame. I can't really think of a terran unit other than the raven (which hurts ghost production due to gas cost and hurts medivac / viking production due to addon) that fulfills as versatile a role in the matchup at all times and makes a worthwhile contribution during the lategame.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On November 09 2012 05:35 DiLiGu wrote: Increase the range of Snipe? Aren't Ghosts supposed to counter Infestors by design? It changes HT's a little bit, but just forces them to make Archons or split their HT's up thus breaking up the deathball, so, win/win. Shit, make the range on snipe like 12 with a cast time. Makes it more like sniping anyway, and makes Ghosts fill that Assassin class role. I guess that doesn't deal with 24 Infestor compositions though...just stop fungal from snaring massive units, then play skyterran?
I rather like this idea, actually. It will bring some change to TvP as well, granted, but I think the way the infestor works currently is not how a unit in Starcraft II should work.
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i feel like i'm probably the only person who'd rather see cost/supply changes to the infestor than direct nerfs
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12 range snipe. . I think the sales of Ambien would skyrocket due to the lack of sleep protoss players would be getting :0
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they should just change fungal, IT should be infestors main spell
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On November 10 2012 07:17 Channel Pressure wrote: I think I would share your perspective on a particular unit being necessairy leading to staleness. . SC suffers from that a bit but its a very small problem I think. But I agree with that point to a degree (though zerg does have alternatives in mid game versus toss, still, point taken). To the point of volatility, I dont think thats a flaw of starcraft. In fact I think thats the mark of longevity in a sport. Combat sports and Football can also have an extraordinarily high level of volatility. I think it keeps things fresh in the right way. There is a fine line between volatility and randomness, and I confess at times starcraft can feel random. I don't believe it is random, just that an infinitely small decision that effect the outcome of a game in a way that seems too harsh. But again, this is an attribute of high level competition I think.
But even in saying that I agree with your points with the exception of the warp gate thing. I've never really understood why some people hate WG or think its imbalanced. I guess i don't have anything to add to that point but that WG seems to be, working as intended.
Volatility wasn't the right word for it, i'll cede that, but here are some things to think about regarding WG (to give some perspective)
Kydarin Amulet was nerfed because warp gate meant they were too strong with the ability to be instantly purchased and placed anywhere in pylon power. Without WG this would not be the case...
Following this logic it's easy to consider how the balance of every WG unit is affected. Build time, cost, and attack.
Imagine if instead of having the ability to warp in units exactly when and where you need them, you instead are given better unit construction time or perhaps even slightly more powerful units (like templar with kydarin amulet for example). (or even less powerful units with much less construction time, or stronger units with more construction time, whatever gives the most action and versatility in my opinion. This could involve nerfing some Terran and Zerg units as well)
Can you imagine the implications this would have on balance with Terran and Zerg? (like what would then happen to the infestor)
What would pvp be like? (much much much cooler in my opinion)
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The infestor's problem is it's effectiveness vs air and land units and it's ability to completely shutdown the sky path for the opponent while still being very effective vs ground units. Making it less effective vs air will dramatically change the viable game styles and it would really be best for the game. However this is all should be done while making sure balance is preserved.
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On November 10 2012 08:45 i)awn wrote: The infestor's problem is it's effectiveness vs air and land units and it's ability to completely shutdown the sky path for the opponent while still being very effective vs ground units. Making it less effective vs air will dramatically change the viable game styles and it would really be best for the game. However this is all should be done while making sure balance is preserved.
I'm afraid that no one would ever make infestors in the midgame again if they became less good at AA, but I guess removing fungal vs AA and leaving ITs in place could work.
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On November 10 2012 07:32 Zanno wrote: i feel like i'm probably the only person who'd rather see cost/supply changes to the infestor than direct nerfs
Probably. People hate how ungodly boring of a spell fungal is. Even if they don't spam 20 infestors, and only have 6-7, infestor/BL will still be incredibly strong. The fact that fungal chain can kill your army WITHOUT you dealing ANY damage in return is fucking stupid.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
On November 10 2012 10:02 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 07:32 Zanno wrote: i feel like i'm probably the only person who'd rather see cost/supply changes to the infestor than direct nerfs Probably. People hate how ungodly boring of a spell fungal is. Even if they don't spam 20 infestors, and only have 6-7, infestor/BL will still be incredibly strong. The fact that fungal chain can kill your army WITHOUT you dealing ANY damage in return is fucking stupid. Nah actually I agree. If balance changes are necessary, and I'm starting to lean that way I think it's best to tone things down gradually instead of doing wholescale changes early doors. Posted to that effect earlier here actually.
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On November 10 2012 10:15 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 10:02 FabledIntegral wrote:On November 10 2012 07:32 Zanno wrote: i feel like i'm probably the only person who'd rather see cost/supply changes to the infestor than direct nerfs Probably. People hate how ungodly boring of a spell fungal is. Even if they don't spam 20 infestors, and only have 6-7, infestor/BL will still be incredibly strong. The fact that fungal chain can kill your army WITHOUT you dealing ANY damage in return is fucking stupid. Nah actually I agree. If balance changes are necessary, and I'm starting to lean that way I think it's best to tone things down gradually instead of doing wholescale changes early doors. Posted to that effect earlier here actually. Wouldn't be so sure about that. If you watch progames recently, you will realize how ridiculously dominant this unit is. The effort needed to stop it (especially in conjunction with broodlords) simply does not make sense.
I do not mind a massive buff to hydras in return for an equally massive nerf for the infestors. It really is getting out of hand here; any high level game with zerg is unwatchable, unless you find some sick pleasure from watching clumps of units stunned with green goo, and said green goo bringing the downfall of a the army, where the controller made only 1 minor mistake. There is no equally punishing mistake for zerg to do. The unfairness is unholy.
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Northern Ireland20821 Posts
I do watch a lot of pro games, just bar things like 5 rax reaper which are clearly incredibly broken patching something can have huge effects on matchups. Just look at the Queen buff/OL speed buff combo which has really changed a lot of the way that ZvT goes.
It's more complex than patching the shit out of it, and I hate infestor play as much as anybody, but for example a massive hydra buff could see Hydra timings completely dominate Protoss, or force fast Collosus every single game which may be just as boring to watch.
Patch gradually, if it's still regarded as broken by the majority, patch again but do it incrementally so you don't destabilise all the matchups massively.
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On November 10 2012 12:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I do watch a lot of pro games, just bar things like 5 rax reaper which are clearly incredibly broken patching something can have huge effects on matchups. Just look at the Queen buff/OL speed buff combo which has really changed a lot of the way that ZvT goes.
It's more complex than patching the shit out of it, and I hate infestor play as much as anybody, but for example a massive hydra buff could see Hydra timings completely dominate Protoss, or force fast Collosus every single game which may be just as boring to watch.
Patch gradually, if it's still regarded as broken by the majority, patch again but do it incrementally so you don't destabilise all the matchups massively.
I would love for a huge change in the matchup. You want infestor still to be the primary core unit with the main spell of this core unit being a root move? Ugh.... =[
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What if, and this is just a shot in the dark, Queens would cost gas? or at least any extra queens (a hatchery will remove the gascost from one queen) then there wouldnt be any gasless openings, Zerg would not as easily be able to sit on 3 base eco as early, and would not be able to mass out infestors in the same way, perhaps even be forced to wait until hive tech before they would get them?
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On November 10 2012 20:58 NEEDZMOAR wrote: What if, and this is just a shot in the dark, Queens would cost gas? or at least any extra queens (a hatchery will remove the gascost from one queen) then there wouldnt be any gasless openings, Zerg would not as easily be able to sit on 3 base eco as early, and would not be able to mass out infestors in the way, perhaps even be forced to wait until hive tech before they would get them?
Alternatively, why not make the range buff that queens got in the patch (3 -> 5 I think) an upgrade? The hard part about that is that it would tie up a building (spawning pool maybe? Hatch is probably out of the question). I'd say "give queens produced from lairs or hives the range buff" but I think that's too late in the game for the upgrade.
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On November 10 2012 12:34 Wombat_NI wrote: I do watch a lot of pro games, just bar things like 5 rax reaper which are clearly incredibly broken patching something can have huge effects on matchups. Just look at the Queen buff/OL speed buff combo which has really changed a lot of the way that ZvT goes.
It's more complex than patching the shit out of it, and I hate infestor play as much as anybody, but for example a massive hydra buff could see Hydra timings completely dominate Protoss, or force fast Collosus every single game which may be just as boring to watch.
Patch gradually, if it's still regarded as broken by the majority, patch again but do it incrementally so you don't destabilise all the matchups massively.
I also agreed that patch so be gradual. That is why a lot of people didn't understand why they didn't change to queen range to 4 first and see what happens. However, I do get Blizzard's reason. After a patch, it might take a few months for the meta game to evolve. Say the time frame is 3 months. And if you do 3 gradual patches, that means 9 months of time which is huge.
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The problem of infestors is that they have no drawbacks. Just compare it to any other unit in game.
It has a pretty high range(10[11]), it can efficiently counter air(ITs and fungal)[arbiter could also attack air, but you know], is mobile, upgrade required is stupidly cheep and quick to research, it's a T2 unit and is a pre-requisite for the T3; they're not even squishy, they got built-in panic run away mechanism which also can be used for stealth harassement.
At same time, they got build time of 50, cost 100/150 and 2 supply.
I'm just saying, make the unit so it has some drawbacks. So Zerg player gets punished for getting more than X Infestors.
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On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game.
Thing is, you want to nerf infestors? Buff Hydras or roaches, infestors are the only cost effective per supply unit zerg got until broodlords, who themselves wouldnt be cost effective without fungals. And no, infestors based builds arent "OMAGAD IMBALANCED" they require proper counter. We still need to see EMPs used, more high templars used late game PvZ (20 infested terrans will die instantly to one storm, 20x25= 500 energy against 75) and feedback, and simply the fact that just as zergs encounter many situations where they have to trade base and avoid the deathballs from P & T, maybe P & T players should opt to change their way of playing the game instead of whining all the time about it, it took many months for zergs to realize the power of brood infestor, it shouldnt be instant countered. I'm actually very surprised at the lack of creativity in pros strategies, and yeah blablabla I hear it already, i'm not saying that I'm smarter than them or better, but zerg was underpowered for a year, we played on Steppes of War against old terran, and "nah, it's fine" they said, but now that terrans arent 80% of Code S, all of a sudden the world is ending, Blizzard fucked up etc etc. It's funny to read tho
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On November 10 2012 23:44 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. Thing is, you want to nerf infestors? Buff Hydras or roaches, infestors are the only cost effective per supply unit zerg got until broodlords, who themselves wouldnt be cost effective without fungals. And no, infestors based builds arent "OMAGAD IMBALANCED" they require proper counter. We still need to see EMPs used, more high templars used late game PvZ (20 infested terrans will die instantly to one storm, 20x25= 500 energy against 75) and feedback, and simply the fact that just as zergs encounter many situations where they have to trade base and avoid the deathballs from P & T, maybe P & T players should opt to change their way of playing the game instead of whining all the time about it, it took many months for zergs to realize the power of brood infestor, it shouldnt be instant countered. I'm actually very surprised at the lack of creativity in pros strategies, and yeah blablabla I hear it already, i'm not saying that I'm smarter than them or better, but zerg was underpowered for a year, we played on Steppes of War against old terran, and "nah, it's fine" they said, but now that terrans arent 80% of Code S, all of a sudden the world is ending, Blizzard fucked up etc etc. It's funny to read tho You don't even know what you're talking about.
You don't even know how Zerg is supposed to work.
Don't even talk to me, your stupidity might be contagious.
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On November 10 2012 23:46 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 23:44 mahO wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. Thing is, you want to nerf infestors? Buff Hydras or roaches, infestors are the only cost effective per supply unit zerg got until broodlords, who themselves wouldnt be cost effective without fungals. And no, infestors based builds arent "OMAGAD IMBALANCED" they require proper counter. We still need to see EMPs used, more high templars used late game PvZ (20 infested terrans will die instantly to one storm, 20x25= 500 energy against 75) and feedback, and simply the fact that just as zergs encounter many situations where they have to trade base and avoid the deathballs from P & T, maybe P & T players should opt to change their way of playing the game instead of whining all the time about it, it took many months for zergs to realize the power of brood infestor, it shouldnt be instant countered. I'm actually very surprised at the lack of creativity in pros strategies, and yeah blablabla I hear it already, i'm not saying that I'm smarter than them or better, but zerg was underpowered for a year, we played on Steppes of War against old terran, and "nah, it's fine" they said, but now that terrans arent 80% of Code S, all of a sudden the world is ending, Blizzard fucked up etc etc. It's funny to read tho You don't even know what you're talking about. You don't even know how Zerg is supposed to work. Don't even talk to me, your stupidity might be contagious.
Great point sir, I'm so sorry my stupidity might corrupt your gold league record
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Chain fungal like chain smoking. Bad for you.
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+1 Range and some extra Damage on Snipe, +1 Range on Feedback.
Ghosts vs. High Templars is always a treat to watch and a nice micro-fest, so I don't see why it should be any different with infestors vs. Ghosts and High Temps.
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Lol at all this bitching about infestors. Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards.
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On November 11 2012 00:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Lol at all this bitching about infestors. Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards. you probably haven't watched sc2 for the last 1.5 years then. That's when mass marine/mass blink stalker went out of style, yo.
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On November 11 2012 00:25 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 00:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Lol at all this bitching about infestors. Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards. you probably haven't watched sc2 for the last 1.5 years then. That's when mass marine/mass blink stalker went out of style, yo.
Yo, check out last MLG, you. You gonna see vsZ mass blink stalkers from Rain and mass marines from Flash yo.
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On November 10 2012 23:51 mahO wrote:Show nested quote +On November 10 2012 23:46 DidYuhim wrote:On November 10 2012 23:44 mahO wrote:On November 08 2012 09:19 ReachTheSky wrote: I just think its silly that what is supposed to be a support caster is the preffered massable unit. Its not uncommon to see anywhere between 16-24 infestors at once late game. Thing is, you want to nerf infestors? Buff Hydras or roaches, infestors are the only cost effective per supply unit zerg got until broodlords, who themselves wouldnt be cost effective without fungals. And no, infestors based builds arent "OMAGAD IMBALANCED" they require proper counter. We still need to see EMPs used, more high templars used late game PvZ (20 infested terrans will die instantly to one storm, 20x25= 500 energy against 75) and feedback, and simply the fact that just as zergs encounter many situations where they have to trade base and avoid the deathballs from P & T, maybe P & T players should opt to change their way of playing the game instead of whining all the time about it, it took many months for zergs to realize the power of brood infestor, it shouldnt be instant countered. I'm actually very surprised at the lack of creativity in pros strategies, and yeah blablabla I hear it already, i'm not saying that I'm smarter than them or better, but zerg was underpowered for a year, we played on Steppes of War against old terran, and "nah, it's fine" they said, but now that terrans arent 80% of Code S, all of a sudden the world is ending, Blizzard fucked up etc etc. It's funny to read tho You don't even know what you're talking about. You don't even know how Zerg is supposed to work. Don't even talk to me, your stupidity might be contagious. Great point sir, I'm so sorry my stupidity might corrupt your gold league record
Why do people keep saying that P and T need to make more HT/Ghosts lategame? It has been pointed out 200 times why HTs and Ghosts aren't a good response to infestor broodlord. This argument is just zerg players way of justifying their strength.
And also, BLord Infestor has been known about for months, it was just never as common because terrans and protosses would always hit timings long before hive tech, meaning that the zerg had to actually invest in army. Now that queens are stupidly strong, particularly against terran, as well as crazy good scouting options, a zerg can rush 13 minute Hive and still be perfectly safe. This just made BLord Infestor a lot easier to reach faster, and thus we see it so much more often.
And don't say 'just adapt'. Terran is the only race that has adapted and developed new playstyles since the beta. Every change in zerg playstyles has resulted directly from nerfs/buffs that have made certain styles a lot stronger. Why didn't zergs 'just adapt' to BFH? To Snipe? In the meantime, terran has to deal with ridiculous nerfs that are unwarranted, make current terran styles obselete, and throw winrates down the toilet. MVP discovered hellion banshee into mech after it was made even weaker by the queen buff. Infestor BLord evolved because zerg buffs made it so easy to get to, not because someone was theorycrafting and testing new ideas.
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On November 11 2012 00:28 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 00:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 11 2012 00:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Lol at all this bitching about infestors. Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards. you probably haven't watched sc2 for the last 1.5 years then. That's when mass marine/mass blink stalker went out of style, yo. Yo, check out last MLG, you. You gonna see vsZ mass blink stalkers from Rain and mass marines from Flash yo.
Notice how they lost.
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On November 11 2012 00:33 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 00:28 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 00:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 11 2012 00:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Lol at all this bitching about infestors. Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards. you probably haven't watched sc2 for the last 1.5 years then. That's when mass marine/mass blink stalker went out of style, yo. Yo, check out last MLG, you. You gonna see vsZ mass blink stalkers from Rain and mass marines from Flash yo. Notice how they lost.
He never claimed that they won by massing, he claimed that people still do it, your argument is irrelevant.
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On November 11 2012 00:33 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 00:28 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 00:25 TRaFFiC wrote:On November 11 2012 00:22 Fr0d0 wrote: Lol at all this bitching about infestors. Mass marines and blink stalkers vsZ nearly every game for 2 years are somehow full of skill and fun to watch. But mass infestors are broken and boring. So much hypocrisy and double standards. you probably haven't watched sc2 for the last 1.5 years then. That's when mass marine/mass blink stalker went out of style, yo. Yo, check out last MLG, you. You gonna see vsZ mass blink stalkers from Rain and mass marines from Flash yo. Notice how they lost. I did. I can remind you how it was.
Rain forgot 2 observers in the middle of nowhere and lost to burrow. Flash had 1 bunker at wide open wall with 3 bases(no planetaries no additional bunker at 3rd) and lost to runby 3 games in a row. They lost only to 1st, 2nd players at the tournament and won against all other zergs.
C'mon guys, pull your heads out of your arses already.
Why the heck if Life donated first 7 infestors to Flash by a-moving them into terran's army he deserves to lose, but at same time T/P deserve to win by making numerous mistakes ?
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seriously, if Blizzard doesn't react in the near future with a Infestor nerf, I'm very disappointed in their judgement. Imho they fixed 111 with immortal range pretty well, but why don't react to broodlords/infestors?
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If you really think mass blink stalkers and marines are as boring as fungal....well I'm not sure what to say to you. At least those units and their respective skills (blinks and splitting/kiting) actually take some skill to use. Compare that with fungal, which absolutely devastates armies by rooting them in place and dealing heavy damage. And can be used again and again. And has a long range. And has a radius of 2. And denies micro. And punishes the most minscule of mistakes.
Donating 7 infestors obviously makes them deserve to lose. If T/P simply clumps his army up by accident, for one moment, he's screwed. Utterly screwed. The magnitude of the mistakes don't even begin to compare. You've got to be biased to not see that.
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I think this image should say enough at a week before the end of last season. Dustin, please dont waste our time and speak political nonesense. Go run for President
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Haha nice screenshot. I don't know how more obvious this Infestor thing can be.
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On November 11 2012 13:56 SirPinky wrote:I think this image should say enough at a week before the end of last season. Dustin, please dont waste our time and speak political nonesense. Go run for President
Well when Idra who would be lucky to be in the top 300 players in Korea is ranked #5 on the NA server you know you can take the whole chart for less than a grain of salt.
Lets link the Korean charts and see how that goes.
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On November 11 2012 14:20 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:56 SirPinky wrote:I think this image should say enough at a week before the end of last season. Dustin, please dont waste our time and speak political nonesense. Go run for President Well when Idra who would be lucky to be in the top 300 players in Korea is ranked #5 on the NA server you know you can take the whole chart for less than a grain of salt. Lets link the Korean charts and see how that goes.
Zergs are #1 in representation in all regions last I heard. And you can't discredit NA, that's like saying Terran is balanced around top tier Korean players while Zerg is balanced for everyone.
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On November 11 2012 14:20 Figgy wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 13:56 SirPinky wrote:I think this image should say enough at a week before the end of last season. Dustin, please dont waste our time and speak political nonesense. Go run for President Well when Idra who would be lucky to be in the top 300 players in Korea is ranked #5 on the NA server you know you can take the whole chart for less than a grain of salt. Lets link the Korean charts and see how that goes. 9Zerg, 2 terran, 5 protoss for last season's GM at end of season for KR/TW http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/3538875/1/llllllllllll/ladder/lastseason/leagues
Keeping in mind top 16 obviously doesn't show much of a picture compared to top 50 for example or tournament wins.
For KR/TW top 50 at end of last season + Show Spoiler +this includes top 16..obviously GM we have: 19 zerg, 14 terran, 16 protoss.
*Edit* and for fun and more info, Europe's top 16 and top 50. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3092702/1/ATǂSage/ladder/lastseason/leagues
Top 16 GM last season EU we have: 10 zerg, 4 terran, 2 protoss.
Top 50 GM last season EU+ Show Spoiler + including top 16...obviously we have: 25 zerg, 15 terran, 9 protoss, + Show Spoiler +Europe hates protoss... T.T and 1 random.+ Show Spoiler + Finally for top 16 and top 50 NA GM last season in numbers: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3805717/1/ROOToD/ladder/lastseason/leagues
Top 16, as linked by guy I quoted: 11 zerg, 3 terran, 2 protoss.
Top 50 NA GM last season: 25 zerg, 13 terran, 12 protoss.
*Edit again...Put up last season's EU GM instead of this season's x.x;;*
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I respect Blizzard's decision to be patient. The community reacts too quickly, and we've been in this situation many times before. It took a while for Zerg to properly implement infestor timing and control in their play, it could take a while for the other races to learn how to deal with it. The infestor may very well be overpowered, but there's no way to truly tell without giving it time. That's just the nature of this game.
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Dominican Republic31 Posts
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The zergs need infestors, theres no doubt in my mind about that and any zerg who doesn't use infestor id boldly say is not trying to win, that being said, its making the game stale and boring, just like emp does to a certain extent, the only fair spell in the game is storm(when it comes to emp vs storm vs fungal), because it can only do max damage in the most ideal situation. On the other hand its basicly a direct hit or a miss on the other two, which is exactly how armys are wiped out so extremly quickly(for or against), if you are going to make 3 insane spell casters, one for each race, atleast make them all equal in draw backs and higher skill ceiling to use, make it so if u win with those units, its really skill, and not just the users end, but the adversaries end aswell,
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 11 2012 14:30 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 14:20 Figgy wrote:On November 11 2012 13:56 SirPinky wrote:I think this image should say enough at a week before the end of last season. Dustin, please dont waste our time and speak political nonesense. Go run for President Well when Idra who would be lucky to be in the top 300 players in Korea is ranked #5 on the NA server you know you can take the whole chart for less than a grain of salt. Lets link the Korean charts and see how that goes. 9Zerg, 2 terran, 5 protoss for last season's GM at end of season for KR/TW http://kr.battle.net/sc2/ko/profile/3538875/1/llllllllllll/ladder/lastseason/leaguesKeeping in mind top 16 obviously doesn't show much of a picture compared to top 50 for example or tournament wins. For KR/TW top 50 at end of last season + Show Spoiler +this includes top 16..obviously GM we have: 19 zerg, 14 terran, 16 protoss. *Edit* and for fun and more info, Europe's top 16 and top 50. http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3092702/1/ATǂSage/ladder/lastseason/leaguesTop 16 GM last season EU we have: 10 zerg, 4 terran, 2 protoss. Top 50 GM last season EU + Show Spoiler + including top 16...obviously we have: 25 zerg, 15 terran, 9 protoss, + Show Spoiler +Europe hates protoss... T.T and 1 random. + Show Spoiler +Finally for top 16 and top 50 NA GM last season in numbers: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/3805717/1/ROOToD/ladder/lastseason/leaguesTop 16, as linked by guy I quoted: 11 zerg, 3 terran, 2 protoss. Top 50 NA GM last season: 25 zerg, 13 terran, 12 protoss. *Edit again...Put up last season's EU GM instead of this season's x.x;;*
Because I REALLY Don't want to edit this for the 6th time and would like to keep it at least somewhat clear.. I'd like to add that Korea's GM ladder seems to be the most competitive in terms of being "full" having 200 of 200 in GM at the end of the season compared to 199/200 for NA GM and 195/200 for EU GM.
NA is the highest in terms of "Point value" at 1854 for rank 1 and 1475 for rank 16. EU comes second with 1754 at rank 1 and 1552 at rank 16. KR/TW third with 1599 at rank 1 and 1403 at rank 16.
Scaling below top 50 EU, NA, and KR/TW become fairly tied in points, averaging 1200-1400 for NA, 1300-1400 for EU and 1200-1400 for KR/TW between ranks 50 and 17.
In terms of Ladder games played per season between the three servers it obviously greatly varies. However in the top 16 about 6 of 16 players in KR and NA both have over 200 games Won, EU has 7 of 16 players with over 200 games Won. The absolute minimum number of games won by any player in the top 16 is 100 on KR, by megumixbear. The absolute maximum number of games won by any player in the top 16 is 524 on EU, by EmpireKas. + Show Spoiler +Now who's really surprised by that one, haha. ;p Kas you ladder monster.
For that final tidbit of info I used games won rather than games played because 1: I'm too lazy to do the math on 48 separate players >_>; and 2: Most of the players in the top 16 on their respective servers have fairly equal win/loss rates relative to each other.
The three big exceptions being SsonLight, EmpireKas and EGIdra. All of whom have more games played than most other people in the top 16.
I dunno if this info is of any use or really proves anything one way or another, I just hope it's of interest to some of you. I for one found it to be fairly interesting.
*Edited to correct spelling and add spaces and stuff...T.T + Show Spoiler +Why does my stuff never turn out nicely without an edit...? *
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I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through:
You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Flying: Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult.
There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
Jangbi: To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
San: It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so.
Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder!
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The infestor is a very difficult thing to balance, as it is the backbone of the entire Zerg arsenal. It makes sense that it would take a lot of time to balance such a thing and it would be pointless to nerf it to such a degree that Zerg would be the weaker race. Doing this would only appease those people that seem to get emotionally involved every time that balance is discussed.
There seems to be two issues with the infestor as well; the balance aspect and the game design aspect. I think that it may be a bit too much to expect blizzard to redesign the infestor just for WoL before HotS is released.
Just in case people will misread what I'm saying, I am NOT saying that the infestor is balanced or designed well, I'm just saying that some people could do well to consider the difficulty of balancing and redesigning such a thing.
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On November 11 2012 15:16 tomatriedes wrote:I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through: Show nested quote +You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Flying: Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult. Show nested quote +There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
Jangbi: To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
Show nested quote +What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
San: It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so. Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder!
Post this on the HotS beta forum someone!
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On November 11 2012 15:35 734pot wrote: The infestor is a very difficult thing to balance, as it is the backbone of the entire Zerg arsenal.
Right, but in HoTS we have a Hive tech spell caster that doesn't do any direct damage but certainly helps with positional play. With all the new toys Zerg is getting, it just might be safe to de-emphasize the infestor a bit. It can leave its position as backbone and become a regular ol' supporting spell caster unit, which I thought was the whole reason for a number of nerfs when Destiny came on the scene.
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On November 11 2012 15:39 Aetherial wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 15:16 tomatriedes wrote:I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through: You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Flying: Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult. There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
Jangbi: To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
San: It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so. Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder! Post this on the HotS beta forum someone!
Eh, other pros have said that over the last few months as well. Blizzard really doesn't care unfortunately :/
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+ Show Spoiler +On November 11 2012 15:16 tomatriedes wrote:I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through: Show nested quote +You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Flying: Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult. Show nested quote +There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
Jangbi: To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
Show nested quote +What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
San: It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so. Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder! Note: Most of this post is in spoilers due to the massive length of everything I've either quoted or had to write, sorry if it's a tad hard to read due to that.
I'm going to add a few quotes from that series of interviews that say something to the same effect, It should be noted that the quote belonging to TSL_Center isn't as directly saying he believes zerg is OP/too strong, however it's very heavily implying it.
I'd also like to preface these quotes by noting that, although this is not necessarily the case, both the translators for these players and the players themselves can and might be heavily biased due to playing a race other than zerg or in the case of the translators preferring a race other than zerg and I myself certainly believe that zerg is too strong right now or at least very "broken" in how it plays mostly due to how infestors currently work. Quotes from the afformentioned interviews, with all credits belonging to ThisIsGame:
Jjaki:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: Have you always had trouble against Zerg? NSH_jjakji: Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage. TSL_Center:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: Many of the players living alongside the TSL Zerg aces have appeared to be downtrodden. How do you feel personally? TSL_Center: I don't have any big problems myself. There are four players among the Zergs on our team who are particularly good. If you can just keep up a 50% win rate against those hyungs during practice, you begin to develop confidence that you won't lose. You don't feel crushed when you lose, and you become more confident whenever you win a game against them. Interviewer: So what is your win rate? TSL_Center: My win rate used to be good, but the hyungs have become much better, so it hasn't been as high recently (laughs).
ST_Brain:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: You made it to the final round without a single walkover. ST_Brain: When I played today, my PvZs were my most difficult games. I couldn't think of good ways to win, so I often resorted to Immortal all-ins. Interviewer: You've told us that you have trouble in PvZ, but you faced another Zerg in the Round of 4. ST_Brain: During the semifinals, I won easily by using another Immortal rush, then attempting to construct a hidden expansion during the set afterwards.
This bit, also from the ST_Brain interview "may" show some bias on the part of the interviewer and I'm adding it more for the sake of objectivity than anything else, with what I consider some bias against zerg on the interviewer's part underlined: Interviewer: There are many Zergs taking up spots in the GSL due to how strong the race is at the moment, so your goals may be different this season. What are they? ST_Brain: I would like to rise up high, but for now, my goal is to reach the Up & Downs and enter Code S using my skill.
To conclude and add a bit of counterpoint I'd first like to add ST_Brain implies the great strength of the immortal/sentry allin in his section quoted above, and also add quotes from a zerg player with his thoughts on the infestor and a quote from one about his feelings of ZvP.
Miya on the infestor:+ Show Spoiler + Interviewer: There has been a lot of talk that Zerg has been strong lately. Miya: They say that they can't play the game because of Infestors, but there is no alternative for a Zerg player. I would like them to know that aside from the Infestor, the units that Zerg has aren't very strong. + Show Spoiler + I personally STRONGLY disagree with his sentiments here, having seen zergs perform quite well over the past couple years without any infestor use at all and even in recent tournaments using builds such as muta/ling/bane and roach pushes such as Stephano's. SKTelecomT1_Dark on ZvP:+ Show Spoiler +Interviewer: What would you call your greatest stumbling block or hump? SKTelecomT1_Dark: If I happen to reach Code S, I want to avoid a Protoss in my first match. Even today, I focused on practicing my ZvP but found out that there were almost no Protoss players in my group once I arrived.
+ Show Spoiler +
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I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time.
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Lol, without infestor what is zerg suposed to do vs forcefields and colosus/immortal before broodlords?
You guys complain about infestor root, but at least all our units dont out range yours. Protoss units all out range zerg units with the Immortal range buff they got to defend 1/1/1. Do you realize how retarded it is when toss has 10 sentries with full energy and can cast 63634 forcefields locking down entire army for 1 in game minute easily, wiping it out with taking no dmg?
With alot of sentries on the field, any possible aggression is almost impossible if protoss plays right; its all in the hands of protoss and not zerg. Its just as bad as fungal imo... just not in the late game.
Heres a deal: Remove fungal, remove forcefield. But then you need to nerf marines and marauders to compensate.
Funny protoss gets buff to defend 1/1/1 because it was too hard to hold.
You think immortal sentry all ins are easy to hold? If toss put some pressure early on and slowsdown the droning/powering, the following immortal sentry all ins are sooo hard to hold,.. if you dont have infestors its crazy...
Protoss whined about 1/1/1, got immortal buff. Protoss whined about mutas? got OP as hell pheonix that shoot while moving. Mutas cant even fight against pheonixes, even if almost double ressource investment.
I used to go mutas alot in ZvP, so i didnt have to deal with Forcefields bullshit. Now with the new pheonix, going mutas can lose you the game if protoss was making a bunch of pheonixes, you cant even run mutas away from pheonixes... So now only way, 5min gaz, lair early, rush to infestor. I fungal those damn sentries and throw infestted terran above forcefields. its the best and safest way to stop Immo/sentry all-ins, other than hoping that the toss miss forcefields...
Seriously if you want infestor nerf, better freaking fix situations where the outcome of a battle is ALLLLLL in the end of a protoss; all about his forcefield, zerg has to say in the battle, just try to *dodge* or bait bad forcefields, wich is again in the hands of the protoss.
I very much so agree that infestors and infested terran are ridiculusly too powerful, most zergs know that, we play ZvZ you know. In ZVZ, as soon as someone has 10+ infestors, its always too risky to make a move, or even attack, you just have to wait for broodlords and turtle, because in theory, defending players with infestors cannot lose in similar macro situations.
The whole game right now is a huge mess, starting from roaches beeing 75/25 but 2 supply, Game is designed around roach 1 supply. Either make roach weaker and put them back at 1 supply; or keep them 2 supply, but increase their cost and make them better. A 2 supply 75/25 roach makes no sense; its easy to see: A max roach army loses to max marine without stim, loses to everything terran has besides hellions or reapers. Max roach loses to max stalkers as well, but thats fair since stalkers cost more... but then again stalkers can attack air, move faster, have more range and can blink.
But theres even more!!! Without infestors, Good terrans could probably win with only marines... banelings alone dont cut it against good splits, marines dps is insanely good, and they cost 50 minerals only... Without infestors, i have no idea how we could beat a marine tank composition that is controlled almost perfectly.
Finally; heres a brilliant idea i just got.
Instead of nerfing infestors, give the other races proper ways to deal with them.
-Terrans already have emp, maybe increase its range a little bit ( might break tvp , but maybe not with the next change).
- For Protoss, remove vortex from mothership, but give it a MASS Aoe EMP like ability, you cast it on a clump of infestors and plop, no energy on all of them. It could be as big as current vortex, or even as big as recall. It would not break PVP since both sides can have one, would even make it interesting. It would also compensate for the increase EMP range on ghost, it would be a race of terran trying to emp the mothership, and mothership trying to emp ghost clumps, Obviously mothership emp would need bigger range to compensate fact that terran can spread their ghosts.
ANd there you have it, those mass infestors clumps would be High risk in the late game, get them all EMPd and they are all useless. But a sprinkle of infestors here and there would still be very good to add to your army.
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On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time.
Thanks for adding to the discussion.
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On November 11 2012 16:42 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
You are welcome! Feel free to ask for more genuine theories.
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On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time.
Completely unbiased opinion, right here.
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On November 11 2012 16:58 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Completely unbiased opinion, right here.
I feel the same each time I see patch notes showed by game loader.
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On November 11 2012 17:02 Fr0d0 wrote:
I feel the same each time I see patch notes showed by game loader.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote:
Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10.
?
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On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time.
Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post.
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whenever I see this topic, I always have the mental image of browder riding an infestor...
EDIT: can someone make a gif of it plox
On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post.
imo the game was balanced after the first year, then some of the patches later were "nice"
but most after the first year just were fucking around with the game state
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On November 11 2012 17:02 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:58 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Completely unbiased opinion, right here. I feel the same each time I see patch notes showed by game loader.
You are adding nothing to this discussion about the infestor with your "l2p whiney terran/protoss" comment. The overwhelming majority of the community believes at the VERY least the infestor is flawed, mostly for the reason that it fills too many roles. Even if the game is technically balanced by blizzard's standards (win rates on all levels), it doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of PvZ wins come from 2 base all ins and zerg wins the majority of the time the game reaches the later stages.
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On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post.
Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums.
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On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums.
8 zergs in the ro16
I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything.
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On November 11 2012 17:16 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:02 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 16:58 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Completely unbiased opinion, right here. I feel the same each time I see patch notes showed by game loader. You are adding nothing to this discussion about the infestor with your "l2p whiney terran/protoss" comment. The overwhelming majority of the community believes at the VERY least the infestor is flawed, mostly for the reason that it fills too many roles. Even if the game is technically balanced by blizzard's standards (win rates on all levels), it doesn't change the fact that a huge chunk of PvZ wins come from 2 base all ins and zerg wins the majority of the time the game reaches the later stages.
I didn't bring ladder statistic disscusion here, bro. Your complain is misplaced.
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On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything.
May be it is so, because better players chose zerg.
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On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating
you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that.
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On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg.
How was terran imbalanced then?
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On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that.
I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and are trying to claim some imbalance and demand unjustified nerfs.
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On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then?
I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe.
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On November 11 2012 17:13 zhurai wrote:whenever I see this topic, I always have the mental image of browder riding an infestor... EDIT: can someone make a gif of it plox Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. imo the game was balanced after the first year, then some of the patches later were "nice" but most after the first year just were fucking around with the game state
Their patches afterwards were infuriating, nerfing anything within a month of it's advent. It's such an odd position Blizzard is at, finally backing off on patching to let the metagame develop when the metagame is in a stale state (from a patch too, lol). Overall I'm content and optimistic, though. At least some progress was made.
On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums.
The metagame is at a stale point where Terrans and Protoss are reliant on timing attacks to manage zerg's fairly strong lategame, as broodlord infestor compositions are generally more often victorious than not. I'm not sure how you can see no reason for Terrans to be disgruntled at the current state of the metagame where Zerg is very strong at the moment. While I'd love for an epiphany in some Terran genius that solves the metagame and mixes everything up again, at some point, if the metagame remains as is, it'd probably be better off being patched. This conclusion isn't knee-jerk either. Blizzard gave the community ample opportunity. As long as the solution is appropriate.
Keep in mind this all began when Queens were buffed, effectively ending hellion pressure denying thirds giving way for fast 3 cc -- conversely, resulting in the turtle zerg style: rushing to broodlords behind wall upon wall of fungals.
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On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players.
Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground.
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On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg.
That is exactly what they said when all the Terrans were dominating in the GSL summer 2011
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On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground.
Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly.
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On November 11 2012 17:48 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly.
Dude are you just trolling? Seriously, why would you suggest zergs are now just dominating because the player's are better, but denouncing this same idiotic theory when someone suggests it could have been the case when Terrans and Protoss were dominating.
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On November 11 2012 17:48 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly.
They're wrong and I'm right, obviously.
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On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg.
Lol, and better players chose terran at launch right?
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On November 11 2012 17:41 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and claims some imbalance and demands unjustified nerfs. You come here, make post that is a generic whine of patchzerg, and then start raining blames on everyone for wanting the nerf of most unlogical and stupid unit that Browder has ever delivered.
You want a game for a proof? Liquid'HerO vs FXOLeenock(GSL S4, Ro16, Group B, Antiga Shipyard) - a typical showcase of how zerg can get outplayed for 90% of the game, then hit F button few times and collect currency.
Effort zerg has to make is miniscule. I find it pretty disgusting and unbalanced.
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On November 11 2012 17:57 Le BucheRON wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. Lol, and better players chose terran at launch right? No, dude, those BoxeR, NaDa and Mvp guys are just retards compared to the true strength of great Idra and Destiny. /s
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Infestors are by far the most interesting unit in the game. Rather than nerfing zerg, give the other races more interesting units.
The stale broodlord/infestor late game composition is a different issue.
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On November 11 2012 18:02 Incanus wrote: Infestors are by far the most interesting unit in the game. Rather than nerfing zerg, give the other races more interesting units.
Have you seen the new expansion? I'd rather have them nerfed than wait for Dustin "destructible rocks" Browder to think of an interesting and fun unit.
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On November 11 2012 17:58 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and claims some imbalance and demands unjustified nerfs. You come here, make post that is a generic whine of patchzerg, and then start raining blames on everyone for wanting the nerf of most unlogical and stupid unit that Browder has ever delivered. You want a game for a proof? Liquid'HerO vs FXOLeenock(GSL S4, Ro16, Group B, Antiga Shipyard) - a typical showcase of how zerg can get outplayed for 90% of the game, then hit F button few times and collect currency. Effort zerg has to make is miniscule. I find it pretty disgusting and unbalanced.
Dustin Browder still disagree with you nevertheless.
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On November 11 2012 18:09 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:58 DidYuhim wrote:On November 11 2012 17:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and claims some imbalance and demands unjustified nerfs. You come here, make post that is a generic whine of patchzerg, and then start raining blames on everyone for wanting the nerf of most unlogical and stupid unit that Browder has ever delivered. You want a game for a proof? Liquid'HerO vs FXOLeenock(GSL S4, Ro16, Group B, Antiga Shipyard) - a typical showcase of how zerg can get outplayed for 90% of the game, then hit F button few times and collect currency. Effort zerg has to make is miniscule. I find it pretty disgusting and unbalanced. Dustin Browder still disagree with you nevertheless. He also says that Tal'Darim Altar is one of the best balanced maps all-around.
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On November 11 2012 18:13 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:09 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:58 DidYuhim wrote:On November 11 2012 17:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and claims some imbalance and demands unjustified nerfs. You come here, make post that is a generic whine of patchzerg, and then start raining blames on everyone for wanting the nerf of most unlogical and stupid unit that Browder has ever delivered. You want a game for a proof? Liquid'HerO vs FXOLeenock(GSL S4, Ro16, Group B, Antiga Shipyard) - a typical showcase of how zerg can get outplayed for 90% of the game, then hit F button few times and collect currency. Effort zerg has to make is miniscule. I find it pretty disgusting and unbalanced. Dustin Browder still disagree with you nevertheless. He also says that Tal'Darim Altar is one of the best balanced maps all-around.
LOL. I'd rather play Steppes of War as a Season 1 2010 zerg.
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mass infestor is pretty much the new mass ghost, end game terran would just mass ghost and blizzard nerfed the strategy now, all zergs just mass infestors and win... fair is fair nerf infestor to :/
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No, dude, those BoxeR, NaDa and Mvp guys are just retards compared to the true strength of great Idra and Destiny. /s
Yes, Hipster Destiny was using the infestor before it was mainstream. In fact, he invented it. Idra was using perfect mechanics before it was popular too, making him so much more awesome.
But on a serious note, PvZ is stupid, because of immortal all ins and BL/Infestor. Not even worrying about balance, its just retarded to watch. Drones Drones Drones, Robo, to all-in or not to all-in, that is the question. 50 mins later, the map is mined out and zerg has an army of 20BL's and 40 Infestors and 80 spines...
While I enjoy playing and watching the game, I think it needs some serious overhauling. Blizzard needs to GTFO the idea of spells that negate micro, free units (broodlings, infested terrans, and this new swarm host???) and destructable rocks.
LESS NERF, MORE BUFF.
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The point of SC2 is to play a game. A game needs too able competitors. Ghostss EMP range was nerfed because it was too effective against deathballs? Well, why can't Toss and Zerg send out scouts of their own to kill the ghosts that are trying to EMP them? Know what would happen? Awesome fun would happen, and splitting of units would happen, and a cool storyline of chasing, anticipation, sabotage, catching off guard, and coordination would happen.
The proactive clipping of abilities to equalize the style of play is backwards. The style of play (within a reasonable balanced game) should fit the game. In other words, Zerg and Toss would need to do something about Ghost EMP, like drop for the Ghost Academy or send out scouts to kill them.
THis continual loop of nerfing is silly, it was good the way it was before Ghost nerf.
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On November 11 2012 18:13 DidYuhim wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:09 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:58 DidYuhim wrote:On November 11 2012 17:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and claims some imbalance and demands unjustified nerfs. You come here, make post that is a generic whine of patchzerg, and then start raining blames on everyone for wanting the nerf of most unlogical and stupid unit that Browder has ever delivered. You want a game for a proof? Liquid'HerO vs FXOLeenock(GSL S4, Ro16, Group B, Antiga Shipyard) - a typical showcase of how zerg can get outplayed for 90% of the game, then hit F button few times and collect currency. Effort zerg has to make is miniscule. I find it pretty disgusting and unbalanced. Dustin Browder still disagree with you nevertheless. He also says that Tal'Darim Altar is one of the best balanced maps all-around.
He also sold you SC2:WOL for 60$.
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On November 11 2012 17:53 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:48 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly. They're wrong and I'm right, obviously.
Well, but what can you do about it ? Whine moar ?
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On November 11 2012 18:15 kmillz wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:13 DidYuhim wrote:On November 11 2012 18:09 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:58 DidYuhim wrote:On November 11 2012 17:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:33 zhurai wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote:On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time. Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post. Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. representation != dominating you have to look at the actual games to say anything about that. I totally agree with your point of view. I have no idea why people makes post like this one(http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380738¤tpage=34#670) and claims some imbalance and demands unjustified nerfs. You come here, make post that is a generic whine of patchzerg, and then start raining blames on everyone for wanting the nerf of most unlogical and stupid unit that Browder has ever delivered. You want a game for a proof? Liquid'HerO vs FXOLeenock(GSL S4, Ro16, Group B, Antiga Shipyard) - a typical showcase of how zerg can get outplayed for 90% of the game, then hit F button few times and collect currency. Effort zerg has to make is miniscule. I find it pretty disgusting and unbalanced. Dustin Browder still disagree with you nevertheless. He also says that Tal'Darim Altar is one of the best balanced maps all-around. LOL. I'd rather play Steppes of War as a Season 1 2010 zerg.
No. No you would not.
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On November 11 2012 18:41 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 17:53 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:48 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:10 rd wrote: [quote]
Lol, zerg wasn't underpowered at all, Terran was just strong. The map pool being terrible was why Zerg struggled a little bit. Their winrates quickly asymptoted at 45-55 once GSL maps hit the scene, and despite all this Zerg's have had competitive performances since launch. And, "underpowered" for two years? Maybe WEAK for the first 5-6 months. What's really disgusting is the bias thats pervasive in this post.
Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly. They're wrong and I'm right, obviously. Well, but what can you do about it ? Whine moar ?
Hey, it worked for zerg players.
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On November 11 2012 18:58 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:53 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:48 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote: [quote]
Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly. They're wrong and I'm right, obviously. Well, but what can you do about it ? Whine moar ? Hey, it worked for zerg players. Hey, they still do it.
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On November 11 2012 18:58 dddoushio wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:53 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:48 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:22 Fr0d0 wrote: [quote]
Well, now zerg is just strong. Terran struggle a little bit and still is dominating Code S. There were 14 terrans in Ro32. I really see no any reason to this bitching storm on forums. 8 zergs in the ro16 I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly. They're wrong and I'm right, obviously. Well, but what can you do about it ? Whine moar ? Hey, it worked for zerg players.
Learn2whine then. GG NO RE
User was banned for this post.
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On November 11 2012 19:13 Fr0d0 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:58 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 18:41 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:53 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:48 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:46 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:44 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:37 dddoushio wrote:On November 11 2012 17:29 Fr0d0 wrote:On November 11 2012 17:25 dddoushio wrote: [quote]
8 zergs in the ro16
I don't see how terran is "dominating" anything. May be it is so, because better players chose zerg. How was terran imbalanced then? I have no full information, unfortunately. I can only guess and make theories. But Blizzard made 20 nerfs to terrans based on some internal statistics and extensive testing I believe. No no no, clearly terran and protoss just had the better players. Blizzard's nerfs were unnecessary and unjustified, and now zerg needs to be nerfed too so there is an even playing ground. Dustin Browder and David Kim disagreed with you explicitly. They're wrong and I'm right, obviously. Well, but what can you do about it ? Whine moar ? Hey, it worked for zerg players. Learn2whine then. GG NO RE
Please get out.
No, seriously, leave. Back to reddit or whatever.
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Dustin remember that you have a job please ! Often times your compagny want you to get the job done !
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On November 11 2012 16:17 Fr0d0 wrote: I've got a good theory about current state of the ladder too. Zerg were disgustingly underpowered for 2 years. Terran took about 20 major nerfs to be balanced and toss took about 10. So zergs worked their ass off to get any chance to win single game. While terran/toss were collecting free wins against zerg in 10 minutes of play by executing blind 1/2 bases all-ins/pushes composed of 1-2 units.
And now instead of l2p on even footing most terrans/tosses are just whining big time.
Please get off teamliquid.
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Fuck. All of these balance whine threads are terrible. Stop this shit, please.
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