Early->Mid Game TvP Needs to Be Addressed - Page 12
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FSTitanium
Singapore13 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:12 peidongyang wrote: Hero played ultra ultra greedy and got punished for it. I would rather say MKP used a blind coinflip and succeeded. herO's build in itself wasn't even greedy, it's just that—from memory—he completely skipped warp-ins for too long blindly assuming MKP would go 3 rax Medivacs. I don't call this 6 rax a "punishment" because MKP had no way to know how herO would play after expand when he chose to go 6 rax. His gamble went well, but you can't expect it to always succeed, hence why this build remains a gimmick that won't even have an impact on Protoss' development since a simple MSC poke or a Hallucination is all it takes to reactively block it. If he had poked with msc he might have gotten that it wasn't 2rax tech but this goes to show what greedy toss play is. People are saying that 3gate obs is a greedy build just because Protoss went1g expand before that and that there should be 1base Terran allins that beat that build despite this being possibly the safest pvt build nowadays that can match the potential of cc first, 1rax expand into tech or just straight up hellion wm medi play. People don't have problem with 1g exe → robo gate gate (or if they do, don't listen to them anyway). People have problems with being unable to do anything against 5'45 dual forge or robo forge council before extra gates even with agressive builds such as Marines/Mines elevator after expand. | ||
peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:20 AKomrade wrote: I'm actually pretty satisfied with TvP early and mid. P allins have always been strong, but it seems necessary because of how feeble P is midgame. Its easy to rage about scouting them, but that's always been a part of the game. And the goal of T should be NOT to let P get that AoE army late game or at least keep the armies trimmed down (not 4 colossi and 10 templar). I also think "limited" builds is incredibly close minded. There are multiple openings and transition options for T to roll with through the game. It's not anywhere close to TvZ at the end of WoL, where you basically had two options. It's funny, I've been worried that P is going to start butthurting about hellbats and widow mines and Blizzard will overreact and nerf them, but it seems T is upset? It's because Protoss are usually going to be aggressive beforehand or play safer builds. You'll see the toss QQ when the metagame shifts again though when every map is like whirlwind or oh that whatever mines map. That or the complaining in this thread gets to blizzard and we get 1/1/1 for another half a year. | ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:25 peidongyang wrote: That or the complaining in this thread gets to blizzard and we get 1/1/1 for another half a year. Please. 1-1-1 was already virtually dead at the end of the WoL; sure it could still win games from time to time, even at pro level, but the best ways to defend it were known and Protoss would only lose when having bad engagements or losing too many Probes to whatever harass Terran was doing before (Hellion drop or Cloak Banshees). | ||
Soicx
United Kingdom49 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:10 SlixSC wrote: have you ever lost to a turret rush? I dont really see the absurdity in his suggestion. The absurdity is that is shouldn't be a case of just being able to hold things you aren't prepared for. Some strategies will just win against others, hence the existence of build order wins. No strategy is going to be safe vs everything, unless you specifically design in scouting triggers where your build will deviate in set ways. While there was some merit to the spore crawler change (but not much), the same cannot be said for altering missile turrets. The ability to use scans anywhere any time will always remove ANY argument based on the premise of detection, moreover Blizzard should not be encouraging poor scouting practices, Reapers are by far the best scouting units available in the early game, not just for scouting the Protoss base, but also for hunting probes on the map looking to place proxies. Rather than just asking for changes perhaps people should put more time into looking for solutions to problems, people like Avilo will always find something to complain about, regardless of general trends and win-rates rather than trying to find solutions. | ||
Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:06 absoluteX wrote: personally i think msc is too versatile for its cost, a 100/100 190 health flying unit with decent ground dps that can pull a slow field, mass recall and a nexus cannon with 13 range, big dps thats hits both air and ground and lasts 1min? idk. i know pvp was is in a bad state and it was really needed but yeah i think atm it's a bit excessive in tvp. drops? banshees? any sort of early aggression? the cannon can fend it off in no time. almost all kind of aggression is deflected pre 10. and it can be casted twice in a row with banked energy. The MSC itself loses to 2 marines... How is that decent DPS. The energy cost for each spell means that you can't do all three of those things at once, or even close. You can do 2 of them if the MSC has been on the field for several minutes. | ||
Kruxxen
United States149 Posts
In my experience Protoss is unattackable (for any real damage) in the early game because of MSC unless he does something really stupid like fly it into your base and lose it for nothing. Terran gets a tiny window where they have potential to do damage to the Protoss. Once medivacs are out it is possible to gain an advantage over the next few minutes, however as soon as the Protoss secures a third and gets both templar and collosus up the game swings back into his favor again. No good Protoss will ever be behind on upgrades lategame (because of cronoboost). And they're typical lategame composition is exponentially harder to deal with than Terran's. In WoL this was acceptable because the early-midgame period had agressive options for Terran (as well as Protoss mind you) that made it much more difficult to reach a lategame where Protoss was capable of fielding a deathball. In HotS however the problem is that the window for Terran to do damage is short and on a razor's edge. Basically Protoss now have the early AND lategame advantage in the matchup, it feels like Terran can only consistantly win with perfect execution of the medivac timing/third denial. | ||
peidongyang
Canada2084 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:34 Soldier92 wrote: I agree with a lot of what the OP says, and don't think this issue has been addressed sufficiently by anyone really. In my experience Protoss is unattackable (for any real damage) in the early game because of MSC unless he does something really stupid like fly it into your base and lose it for nothing. Terran gets a tiny window where they have potential to do damage to the Protoss. Once medivacs are out it is possible to gain an advantage over the next few minutes, however as soon as the Protoss secures a third and gets both templar and collosus up the game swings back into his favor again. No good Protoss will ever be behind on upgrades lategame (because of cronoboost). And they're typical lategame composition is exponentially harder to deal with than Terran's. In WoL this was acceptable because the early-midgame period had agressive options for Terran (as well as Protoss mind you) that made it much more difficult to reach a lategame where Protoss was capable of fielding a deathball. In HotS however the problem is that the window for Terran to do damage is short and on a razor's edge. Basically Protoss now have the early AND lategame advantage in the matchup, it feels like Terran can only consistantly win with perfect execution of the medivac timing/third denial. This is why we have maps like whirlwind, except people arent happy with it and want to give more power to terran in early game without considering how impossible hilarious it is to hold a 3rd on whirlwind UNLESS the protoss has the advantage in upgrades/tech. I just checked map stats and tvz on star station is 70% lol I wonder when they will force cross positions on that map =D | ||
FSTitanium
Singapore13 Posts
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ymir233
United States8275 Posts
On May 03 2013 19:35 USvBleakill wrote: Thats a bit to harsh. Yes the MSC is strong, maybe a bit too strong but with speedmedivacs you still have options. Allins are always an issue as seen with Naniwa yesterday as shuttle scouted it but couldnt do anything because of his opening. As a Terran you just need to be the better player like a league above or something like that but thats nothing new. I don't get how speedvacs are the cure to an early-midgame MSC... | ||
Kruxxen
United States149 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:42 FSTitanium wrote: Actually with a deeper thought, don't you guys feel that the msc is the key unit in TvP for both sides? If terran kills the msc, the toss gets vulnerable, if toss protects the msc well, toss gets the upper hand aggression. Im struggling too with early toss, but each time i manage to kill the msc and push in, it works out quite well and easier. Thus to all terrans out there, shoot it down! Toss have realized this, nobody puts the MSC in a position where it can be lost before photon charged is used. On May 04 2013 02:47 ymir233 wrote: I don't get how speedvacs are the cure to an early-midgame MSC... Exactly, Terran shouldn't have to wait for medivacs EVERY GAME to have any chance to do damage. Protoss knows the timing of medivacs, they're ready for them, they know they're coming. We need options for alternate agression, having only one possible way to put on pressure is no fun, and is getting harder and harder to accomplish as Toss players learn the maps and the vulnerabilities. This is why we have maps like whirlwind, except people arent happy with it and want to give more power to terran in early game without considering how impossible hilarious it is to hold a 3rd on whirlwind UNLESS the protoss has the advantage in upgrades/tech. I just checked map stats and tvz on star station is 70% lol I wonder when they will force cross positions on that map =D I don't know why you're referencing TvZ winrates in a thread about TvP. And secondly, winrates are not the problem, the problem is with the design of the matchup, it's stale, has been since WoL, and should be addressed. | ||
Sissors
1395 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:41 peidongyang wrote: This is why we have maps like whirlwind, except people arent happy with it and want to give more power to terran in early game without considering how impossible hilarious it is to hold a 3rd on whirlwind UNLESS the protoss has the advantage in upgrades/tech. I just checked map stats and tvz on star station is 70% lol I wonder when they will force cross positions on that map =D Its really unfair that you keep using math and examples of real professional players in these arguments. Also, Whilwind is the devil against terran. | ||
HornyHerring
Papua New Guinea1053 Posts
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kheldorin
Singapore539 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:29 TheDwf wrote: Please. 1-1-1 was already virtually dead at the end of the WoL; sure it could still win games from time to time, even at pro level, but the best ways to defend it were known and Protoss would only lose when having bad engagements or losing too many Probes to whatever harass Terran was doing before (Hellion drop or Cloak Banshees). It actually took a while for the immortal range to get buffed in response to the 1/1/1. EG Puma made his career off of it. | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 04 2013 02:57 kheldorin wrote: It actually took a while for the immortal range to get buffed in response to the 1/1/1. EG Puma made his career off of it. And the range buff did not change the world of 1/1/1, but only made the immortal less stupid. That build was still bad ass for months after that change, until protoss figured out how to see it coming a mile off. | ||
badDogma
United States106 Posts
Protoss knows the timing of medivacs, they're ready for them, they know they're coming. We need options for alternate agression, having only one possible way to put on pressure is no fun, and is getting harder and harder to accomplish as Toss players learn the maps and the vulnerabilities. I don't really agree with this. You have extremely cheap and cost-efficient units, fast medivacs, and some of the best harass/probe-killing units in the game (widow mine or hellbat or hellion or even a simple marine drop can kill a dozen probes in seconds). I just watched a PvT on Tod's stream and he spent so much money and gas getting up senties, stalkers, and a couple zealots, and he lost to a simple 9 minute marine push. I think terrans underestimate how hard it is to hold against drops, multi-prong attacks, and early pushes. They just assume that FF and MSC can hold off everything, but they don't mention how efficiently marines trade with expensive gateaway units before high-tech expensive splash units are out. Either way I don't really think the phrase "alternate pressure" makes sense. There is pressure, and there is pressure. You can choose when and how to do the pressure. and terrans have plenty of options. | ||
Sabu113
United States11030 Posts
On May 04 2013 03:00 Plansix wrote: And the range buff did not change the world of 1/1/1, but only made the immortal less stupid. That build was still bad ass for months after that change, until protoss figured out how to see it coming a mile off. Even then there were abusive metagamey strats that aren't possible now because toss scouting is damn good. The biggest change was in map design and map size. Well that and people finally got it through their heads to make zealots. | ||
c0sm0naut
United States1228 Posts
Old TvP, you had a few options, like, 2rax to trade units and slowdown his deathball/make him remake sentries. You had a 10 min 2 medivac timing to pressure his early 3rd if its done yet or drop him and contain him to slow down his 3rd as well as buy yourself time against stalker / collosus all ins. You had banshee into 3CC tank marine and double upgrades, there was a load of variety. Now, i feel that if i gasless fe, i spend hundreds of minerals being safe against even just standard play. on some maps the 2 stalker + msc poke is always damaging, even if you have a bunker up becuase they can target stuff your ramp still. Between ebay, turrets, actually producing off of my structures, i find it hard to find money to throw down a second bunker vs P and actually have enough units to punish greedy from protoss. I feel like if i don't open reaper, and know exactly whats going on, my blind preparations for protoss attacks, trying to take everything into consideration puts me so unbelliveably behind standard play it will even feel unwinnable before we battle sometimes. I feel like if i dont go factory after reaper, i will die to every single timing in the book invovlving more than just light harass, ESP: 2 immortal push + the double timewarp. This sounds whiny i am sorry, i have 70% + win in both TvP and PvT, i get the matchup really well, i just dont play players enough who are cuttroat enough to go oracle into 3gate voids because its map X or whatever, and that shit is very good there. protoss are not all inning nearly as much as they should be on ladder, as race they are so strong early game and the maps are prtty bad for them in some circumstances. I'm just amazed people aren't 1 basing every game yet in this matchup since you can't really scout what it is and prepare for everything he could possibly do in a way that doesn't gimp you in the midgame. Nice post OP, i dont think changes should be made yet however. I really would like for the reaper to be changed again however, maybe to cost only minerals, but have no attack. It's crucial in this matchuup to scout, but i have to take a gas so early it weakens me to 1-2 base GW or immortal timings. not sure. | ||
habermas
United Kingdom304 Posts
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