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"TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend." 1. It honestly sounds to me like you're just frustrated in the matchup, because none of these statements are true, particularly the bolded ones (huehue). 2. What's that? A race has an advantage in a stage of the game? Better patch that shit so that people don't have to work as hard to figure it out, learn timings, scout their opponent properly and for proxies.
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On May 04 2013 04:42 Irre wrote: please support this with a replay of a Professional game where a protoss did not get a single storm/archon hit or collosus volley off. This may have happened pre ghost nerf in 2011 and when protoss didnt control HTs and Collosus with competency like they do now...but I've really not seen any giant equal army/upgrades/tech fights where terran just rolls over the protoss in some time, especially in a Late late game scenario. There might be a few when terrans press an advantage and land some emps in that transition from collosus to HT where htey may have 3-4 storms max ( I'm thinking of Innovation Parting in Proleague on Whirlwind where Innovation anticipates partings flanking and always sniped them..even though he ate a few storms parting ran out and Innnovation narrowly won the fight..one more good storm probably would have changed that result..but Innovation is a god.)
http://www.gosugamers.net/starcraft2/replays/62182
Here's one from like 5 hours ago. Protoss even decisively wins a major fight in the "late" game at the 20-minute mark but Terran at that point simply has too many ghosts, and nothing Protoss does really matters anymore. The final fight at the nexus at 3:00 is a perfect example, the armies are matched in supply at the beginning but mass-EMP and snipe prevents the Protoss army from doing anything and Terran rolls him losing next to nothing. Protoss actually gets many storms off but they never kill anything, the Ghost blob eats several head-on storms but 100 HP means nothing dies and they just get healed back to full very quickly.
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On May 04 2013 04:56 MaestroSC wrote: #1 Race in SC2 both in HotS and in WoL...and we still get balance threads discussing how underpowered they are...?
The bigger issue imo is why are Terrans allowed to make balance complaints on TL if they put enough words into the OP. That used to be such a big nono on TL, yet TL is getting less and less strict about it and maybe its just how it seems, but it really seems the Terran posts are the ones that get allowed to remain open. I got to this thread late, and tried reading from the beginning, but every other post literally says 'terran can't ever beat toss'
You can't even counter any of the arguments. Every good counter-post has been flamed. Even the op itself doesn't give a good reason of why his complaint is even a valid complaint. Its just something he doesnt' like, since its obvious he wants to be able to 1/1/1 and win. Funny enough, the 1/1/1 works just fine once you learn how to hit multiple areas and bait MSC energy.
I do love terran tears though. Doesn't matter how succesfull they are in SC2, they are always the most to complain and the loudest whilst making those complaints. Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
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On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 04:56 MaestroSC wrote: #1 Race in SC2 both in HotS and in WoL...and we still get balance threads discussing how underpowered they are...? The bigger issue imo is why are Terrans allowed to make balance complaints on TL if they put enough words into the OP. That used to be such a big nono on TL, yet TL is getting less and less strict about it and maybe its just how it seems, but it really seems the Terran posts are the ones that get allowed to remain open. I got to this thread late, and tried reading from the beginning, but every other post literally says 'terran can't ever beat toss' You can't even counter any of the arguments. Every good counter-post has been flamed. Even the op itself doesn't give a good reason of why his complaint is even a valid complaint. Its just something he doesnt' like, since its obvious he wants to be able to 1/1/1 and win. Funny enough, the 1/1/1 works just fine once you learn how to hit multiple areas and bait MSC energy. I do love terran tears though. Doesn't matter how succesfull they are in SC2, they are always the most to complain and the loudest whilst making those complaints. Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
This is like your 4th post in a row saying the exact same thing dude. . . we get it.
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On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1 (look at OSL/MSL championships).
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two non-Terran GSL champions on his way! The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up almost as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
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On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
Forgetting this?
+ Show Spoiler +
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On May 04 2013 05:12 heartagram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned. Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
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I'v had the feelings in my games also. I have plqyed dozens of tvp whit my master training buddy and we have discussed about the exact same subject. I mean i need to scout perfectly the proxy sgs, gate pressures , dt drops and the msc zealot stalker opening even eliminates agressive stuff in my play. And even i get the timings right i cant do much if any real damage that i leaned my play on wol. I have tried everything but nothing seemw to work.
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On May 04 2013 04:47 ohampatu wrote: Edit: Too many posts like the above user. No, we dont beat any comp.. Ghost/Viking still works wonders. Dont cherry pick certain series and try to call imbalance. Esp happy vs hasuobs. Happy threw that game, he had a great position but didn't know how to close it out, and just wasted thousands of resources nuking nothing worthwhile, when he could have been dropping a nuke on every single base simultaneously. And its been noted t hat flash didn't play that series well either .Also best PVT player in the world. Argument = Invalid. Discussions are pointless if you terran players just have the mindset 'you are unbeatable at ever level of the game', which alot of you seem to have. Yet in my experience, esp once you hit masters, TvP is hard as fuck to play from the protoss position, even lategame now. See, we have different opinions. Doesn't make our claims true or false, just makes them opinions. We can have this discussion without constant balance whining No, Ghost/Vikings doesn't work anymore unless Terran has some kind of advantage allowing them to complete the Ghosts/Vikings transition and hit before Protoss completes the Tempest transition. It's a matter of phase; if Terran is at a more advanced phase (for instance because of an econ advantage built from the midgame) while Protoss is still "only" on Colossi/HTs then yes, he may win with Ghosts/Vikings. But if the position is even, there is no way you will mass 20+ Ghosts and 20+ Vikings without your opponent building 3+ Stargates and mixing in a few Tempests, which allow him to slowly nibble your position and win fights.
"Didn't know how to close it out" ... Yes, indeed he failed to all-in before lategame. After that, it's too late because Protoss' defensive positions with Cannons and Templars are nigh unbreakable since you can't charge into Protoss concaves + Storms. You can't advance with Nukes since Tempests can pick Ghosts from the safety of 15 range. Also, you're deluded if you think you can sneak 7 Ghosts in the Protoss side on a map like Daybreak, in which 2-3 Cannons at certain locations prevents you from advancing with Cloaked Ghosts.
Your "Flash didn't play that series well either" argument is invalid because (a) I am not talking about the series, only about the Daybreak game; the Star Station one doesn't matter regarding lategame because there was no lategame. And (b) Flash played well enough that he built a lead, tried to transition to lategame with mass Ghosts/Vikings (the composition which is supposed to "work" by lategame according to the Protoss around here) then Battlecruisers and was still defeated. Your PartinG fanboyism is also null; whether he has the best PvT in the world or not irrelevant, and at any rate Flash won him 3:1 at MLG, so it's not like they belong to two different leagues.
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On May 04 2013 05:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:12 heartagram wrote:On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned. Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight. When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months. Well at least you got an award for understatement of the week. 'Began to do better', yes, as in completely dominating.
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On May 04 2013 05:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:12 heartagram wrote:On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned. Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight. When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
2 ZvZ GSL finals and 3 Zerg champions in row is not "doing better".This is the ZERG DOMINION!
Life won the MLG, Leenock the Dreamhack...
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Perfect example of what I was describing:
No, Ghost/Vikings doesn't work anymore unless Terran has some kind of advantage allowing them to complete the Ghosts/Vikings transition and hit before Protoss completes the Tempest transition. It's a matter of phase; if Terran is at a more advanced phase (for instance because of an econ advantage built from the midgame) while Protoss is still "only" on Colossi/HTs then yes, he may win with Ghosts/Vikings. But if the position is even, there is no way you will mass 20+ Ghosts and 20+ Vikings without your opponent building 3+ Stargates and mixing in a few Tempests, which allow him to slowly nibble your position and win fights. finale charged leading with mass Archons near LucifroN's third, logically got bashed by mass EMPs and was then unable to transition to Tempests because he lacked the economy/time to do it. Notice how he was still trying to do this though.
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Scissors and Drivel this is exactly what I'm talking about!
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_League
Look at 2011. How many times did people describe Terran as overpowered? Not nearly as many. Everyone thought Terran players were just skilled!
But then we get half way through 2012, and people are up in arms about how crazy and overpowered Zerg is... why?
Because it wasn't the norm! So we are talking about 2 years of domination versus 6 months of domination. Terrans had more spots in Code S until GSL Season 1 in 2013.
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On May 04 2013 05:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:12 heartagram wrote:On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned. Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight. When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months. I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April. Before that, there was another stretch over a year without any foreign Terran in the finals of a premier tournament (Thorzain in TSL 3). This is compared to MANY Protoss and Zerg foreigners reaching the finals of premier tournaments during the same stretch.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Premier_Tournaments
Anyway, we are getting off track...
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On May 04 2013 05:19 BronzeKnee wrote:Scissors and Drivel this is exactly what I'm talking about! http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GOMTV_Global_StarCraft_II_LeagueLook at 2011. How many times did people describe Terran as overpowered? Not nearly as many. Everyone thought Terran players were just skilled! But then we get half way through 2012, and people are up in arms about how crazy and overpowered Zerg is... why? Because it wasn't the norm! Sorry but that is just not true. It was one big whine fest about terran, which also created the climate which allowed terran to get overnerfed in WoL. Especially because the result was that a few korean terrans could keep up with very good micro, and the more average players had a large problem. Every patch was new nerfs for terran, including quite bad ones. Such as putting thor energy back pretty much immediatly after removing it without actually looking if that was required. Or the snipe nerf, which simply made no sense (ooh snipe is too strong vs broodlords and ultras. Lets nerf it against everything).
And while before that every patch was a new nerf to terran, zerg was left untouched.
Edit: Anyway I don't see how this is really relevant. Imo this topic is also a perfectly viable complaint. I am NOT saying protoss is too strong, but I do agree that toss has alot of all-ins, and are themselves imo too all-in resistent simply with their planetary nexus. So I am definately not in favor of just nerfing toss, but I don't think a rebalance is a bad idea.
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On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 04:56 MaestroSC wrote: #1 Race in SC2 both in HotS and in WoL...and we still get balance threads discussing how underpowered they are...? The bigger issue imo is why are Terrans allowed to make balance complaints on TL if they put enough words into the OP. That used to be such a big nono on TL, yet TL is getting less and less strict about it and maybe its just how it seems, but it really seems the Terran posts are the ones that get allowed to remain open. I got to this thread late, and tried reading from the beginning, but every other post literally says 'terran can't ever beat toss' You can't even counter any of the arguments. Every good counter-post has been flamed. Even the op itself doesn't give a good reason of why his complaint is even a valid complaint. Its just something he doesnt' like, since its obvious he wants to be able to 1/1/1 and win. Funny enough, the 1/1/1 works just fine once you learn how to hit multiple areas and bait MSC energy. I do love terran tears though. Doesn't matter how succesfull they are in SC2, they are always the most to complain and the loudest whilst making those complaints. Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
so according to you terrans aren't allowed to complain about balance?
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Not sure if you're serious or trolling...
A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this:
Since April 2012... when Thorzain won at Dreamhack
MVP won a GSL Championship on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013.
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On May 04 2013 05:32 BronzeKnee wrote:Not sure if you're serious or trolling... Show nested quote + A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this: MVP won a GSL on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013.
Are you trolling me dude? did you even read what I wrote?
"A foreign Terran hasn't won
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Russian Federation59 Posts
I'm no pro but I think this is balanced by the new medivac. Protoss might get early game advantage (compared to WoL), but once the medivac is out, terran has the means to get even as long as he has the skill. Obviously - some things may still need to be tweaked, but I think that's the general idea.
I think Blizz should wait for longer before changing anything (although i'm not sure about the proxy oracle builds - they look pretty good). It would be bad to nerf protoss just to have to buff it again later when terrans are owning everyone with new medv.
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i think its relatively balanced. protoss needs the threat of all-ins and different builds because terran's cookie-cutter build is so good. in the cookie-cutter PvT until they are on 4 base and have 3 stargates for tempest addition to collo/ht (as well as enough minerals for mass cannons + wp harass), terran is better at harassment, fights, and securing/defending resources. and in the cookie cutter PvT protoss needs to be greedy to get to this point, so the increased defense is okay.
that being said, terran being better at fights requires more micro from the terran side, but thats just how the army works. the army is still better, technically -- just harder to use.
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