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On May 04 2013 05:33 heartagram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:32 BronzeKnee wrote:Not sure if you're serious or trolling... A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this: MVP won a GSL on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013. Are you trolling me dude? did you even read what I wrote? " A foreign Terran hasn't won
My mistake, I misread what you wrote. Not sure how what you are saying is proving anything though... it is a very odd qualification. You could also pick out the fact that foreign Protosses have won as many premier tournaments as foreign Terrans (7 each, Zerg has 11, and the majority were before the "patch" Zerg era...), but it doesn't really say anything...
Excluding Koreans makes no sense to me for this discussion. The point of what I was saying was to show that in terms of results, Terrans dominated WOL, but since it was the norm, people accepted it. And thus when we look back Jinro and Thorzain's early results aren't darkened by the "release Terran" era the same way the "patch Zerg" era darkened some of the foreigner Zerg results.
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On May 04 2013 05:33 heartagram wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:32 BronzeKnee wrote:Not sure if you're serious or trolling... A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this: MVP won a GSL on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013. Are you trolling me dude? did you even read what I wrote? " A foreign Terran hasn't won
And a Terran from the U.S. has never won anything. That doesn't mean this statement has balance implications for Terrans playing in the U.S.
It's interesting how quickly people go from "balancing at the highest level" to "balancing at the highest level I think I can achieve" to "just let me win games, k?" A year ago, I'd complain that Protoss had few aggressive options until late game, and Terran had their pick of how to push if they wanted to - but I know what you'd say to that back then. You'd say that people at the top can hold it and if I can't I should focus on getting better and not getting into balance arguments.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2013 05:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:12 heartagram wrote:On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned. Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight. When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months. I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
Idra won the king of beta, Fruitdealer won the first Gsl and Nestea won the second GSL and Mc won the 3rd GSL. Your arguing that terran dominated is laughable. It all changed when MVP showed us how to play terran. Just like Life or DRG in his time, these guys dominated because they were the best not because of racial balance.
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On May 04 2013 05:47 Dunmer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2013 05:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:12 heartagram wrote:On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned. Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight. When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months. I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead. Idra won the king of beta, Fruitdealer won the first Gsl and Nestea won the second GSL and Mc won the 3rd GSL. Your arguing that terran dominated is laughable. It all changed when MVP showed us how to play terran. Just like Life or DRG in his time, these guys dominated because they were the best not because of racial balance.
And what race the runner up in all three of the first GSL wins? And who has the most GSL wins... Also look at overall GSL participation...
Open Season 1, 2 and 3 participation combined:
Terran - 74 Protoss - 59 Zerg - 58
All of 2011 (World Championship excluded):
Terran - 223 Protoss - 144 Zerg - 145
All of 2012 (World Championship excluded):
Terran - 125 Protoss - 100 Zerg - 96
Terran also had more players in Code S every season until GSL Season 1 2013.
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Is there any chance a mod could close this stupid thread? Its the same old whines over and over again
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OP is little more than well written balance whine. You sound frustrated, OP. Maybe practice more, and give it some time to see what strategies arise if these concerns are as bad as you say they are. Whine like this belongs in the balance discussion/whine thread. I don't know why it gets its own thread (perhaps the mods cbf anymore). Unless its because Filter gets to ride the coat-tails of one good training Terran macro training thread he contributed long ago. If so, he's long cashed in.
Close this shitty thread.
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On May 04 2013 05:47 Dunmer wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 04 2013 05:12 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2013 05:12 heartagram wrote:On May 04 2013 05:11 BronzeKnee wrote:On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran. The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1. Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results. But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned. Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight. When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months. I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead. Idra won the king of beta, Fruitdealer won the first Gsl and Nestea won the second GSL and Mc won the 3rd GSL. Your arguing that terran dominated is laughable. It all changed when MVP showed us how to play terran. Just like Life or DRG in his time, these guys dominated because they were the best not because of racial balance.
in almost all of those GSL's terrans were overwhelmingly represented though.
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Terran early game has always been horrible in TvP with the exception of when the 1-1-1 was popular and successful. Standard games have always been about terran hiding behind their bunkers until stim+medivac is available at which point the Terran tries to gain the upper hand during a 2-3 window when toss is getting all their tech, if terrans damages the toss he can go into the late-game with on close to equal terms, if not he's likely to fall victim to a classic a-move + storm - warp in 30 zealots into GG. In hots terran early game TvP got even more horrible.
It's also amazing how good protoss all-ins are. There is a literal flood of brilliant all-ins available for the protoss. Vs some all-ins you can know that it's coming, have 4-5 bunkers and still lose.
Overall I still think that it's a balanced match-up and I've come to accept the lategame as being very hard for me personally on the occasion when I am the Terran.
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On May 04 2013 06:03 ImperialFist wrote: Terran early game has always been horrible in TvP with the exception of when the 1-1-1 was popular and successful. Standard games have always been about terran hiding behind their bunkers until stim+medivac is available at which point the Terran tries to gain the upper hand during a 2-3 window when toss is getting all their tech, if terrans damages the toss he can go into the late-game with on close to equal terms, if not he's likely to fall victim to a classic a-move + storm - warp in 30 zealots into GG. In hots terran early game TvP got even more horrible.
It's also amazing how good protoss all-ins are. There is a literal flood of brilliant all-ins available for the protoss. Vs some all-ins you can know that it's coming, have 4-5 bunkers and still lose.
Overall I still think that it's a balanced match-up and I've come to accept the lategame as being very hard for me personally on the occasion when I am the Terran.
pretty sure terran is more powerful in the late late game, i think you mean protoss is more powerful when armies are approaching max the first time around.
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I'm sure it's been said about a billion times in this thread already....but here goes.
Because of nexus cannon, sentry, etc. toss is almost always safe on 1 to 2 bases. This is why you see zerg players for instance not even bother trying to attack the protoss unless they are 100% all in, instead most opt to play greedy with no units until the toss player starts to get near a move out potential.
Maybe the real answer for Terrans is just to play greedy and not aggressively or play passive aggressive. Like threaten to drop at a natural time you get medivacs but don't be over committed to it just cuz you want to drop.
Toss pretty much needs a minimum of 3 bases to actually have a proper army composition they can replenish. So just play greedy and keep tabs on any 1 or 2 base pushes you'd need to defend. Get aggressive when Toss is spread thin between 3 bases.
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On May 04 2013 06:09 Nerski wrote: I'm sure it's been said about a billion times in this thread already....but here goes.
Because of nexus cannon, sentry, etc. toss is almost always safe on 1 to 2 bases. This is why you see zerg players for instance not even bother trying to attack the protoss unless they are 100% all in, instead most opt to play greedy with no units until the toss player starts to get near a move out potential.
Maybe the real answer for Terrans is just to play greedy and not aggressively or play passive aggressive. Like threaten to drop at a natural time you get medivacs but don't be over committed to it just cuz you want to drop.
Toss pretty much needs a minimum of 3 bases to actually have a proper army composition they can replenish. So just play greedy and keep tabs on any 1 or 2 base pushes you'd need to defend. Get aggressive when Toss is spread thin between 3 bases.
Problem is, protoss got some ridiculously all-ins that shut down T's greedy play. These all-ins wouldn't be a big problem if the god damn all-ins weren't so hard to scout.
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On May 04 2013 05:59 aZealot wrote: OP is little more than well written balance whine. You sound frustrated, OP. Maybe practice more, and give it some time to see what strategies arise if these concerns are as bad as they are. Whine like this belongs in the balance discussion/whine thread. I don't know why it gets its own thread (perhaps the mods cbf anymore). Unless its because Filter gets to ride the coat-tails of one good training Terran macro training thread he contributed long ago. If so, he's long cashed in, IMO.
Close this shitty thread. Agreed. There are some amazing terran players on TL that can provide some real insight into the game, but this thread does not have them. I haven't seen the "no foreign terran has won" theory of imbalance in a while. The amazing theory that if you exclude all the terrans that are winning against really good players, you somehow get proof that the race is under-powered.
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it doesn't need to be addressed when TvP winrates favor Terran.
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LoL @ butthurt scrub tosses in this thread basically. What filter writes has substance unlike your little agendas. He is pointing out an inconsistency that he thinks is there and has delivered his points clearly and has expressed himself well. Would be interesting to hear some pro opinions on this.
I do think personally that Terran still has early aggression options, mostly involving window mines, but certainly Toss has an array of aggressive builds/all ins to choose from that are viable judging from pro games. It does seem kinda off currently but I am willing to accept that I may be over looking some things and that the game is still quite new and the TvP early game has certainly seen a fair amount of change from WoL > HotS.
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I feel like they could make turrets not require an engineering bay and it wouldn't break anything. You would still have to prepare correctly but not having to build an ebay way in advance would make it easier. I don't like that the Nexus Cannon is available so early into the game I feel like if I risk running some marines around the map early there should be the chance of getting rewarded but the Cannon just shuts that down completely otherwise I think it's fine.
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On May 04 2013 06:23 Baum wrote: I feel like they could make turrets not require an engineering bay and it wouldn't break anything. You would still have to prepare correctly but not having to build an ebay way in advance would make it easier.
This would affect TvT (cloak banshee), and maybe TvZ? (since burrow now is cheaper, it would be good)
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