Early->Mid Game TvP Needs to Be Addressed - Page 2
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WhalesFromSpace
390 Posts
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Topdoller
United Kingdom3860 Posts
Stop whining just because Terran cant win in the first 10 mins of the game with Stim timing pushes. Zerg can make the exact same claim about Terran early game.Too many Terrans want a 1/1/1 "Puma" builds to auto win against Protoss. Those days are long gone thank god As to DreamHack, Terran had a lot of average players representing them. Polt and GuMiho the only two worth considering as good. The others build their games on quick kills with Hellbats etc and two base timings, once those players are sussed out with their cheesy play they will fade into obscurity as they did in WoL | ||
Hemling
Sweden93 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:12 Klyberess wrote: What use is sieging their natural if you can't hit their nex? Can that build deal with the various protoss 1-base builds that you see ~50 % of the time? Good questions! Sieging outside range while nexutary fortress is up is just temporary, its a good starting position to make bunkers and seting up the inevitable clash between forces, I usually take a trip up to the main with the banshees while waiting for nex fortress to inactivate. If your up against a 1base protoss build you have the 111 as a very good versatile defense, detection from raven, more then enough marines against oracle and a good infrastructure if you decide to expand before the toss and take the game to the midgame, There's no reason to abuse the timeing if the toss doesnt have an expansion to punish. The 111 is by no means imbalanced and can be stopped like all builds, its just a good opener relevant to the topic because i dont think its "impossible" to attack the protoss before 12min mark. | ||
idscy
United States256 Posts
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WonDeRSC
United States234 Posts
A very boring spell that is essentially a timer before you can attack, and takes little skill. | ||
drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many. Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend | ||
Desertfaux
Netherlands276 Posts
When I play Terran vs Protoss, I open gas first for a quick factory. At this point i have the option to go for a quick 4 hellions (barracks makes 1 marine, then reactor). I follow up with a 2minedrop (+4marines), simultaneously if possible. When I see not enough pylons in the protoss base from my scout, I however go for a quick mine in the mineral line. I found that SG openers autolose to 3 hellions/minedrop in their base(s). When I play Protoss vs Terran, I find the terrans playing standard expand, allowing my to do whatever i feel like (which are DT drops into double upgrade/colossi). All in all, I use the idea that aggression is good. For Protoss this means outright winning the game, for Terran this is killing a lot of workers. I hope to have given you an idea as to how my experience has been so far. | ||
A Wild Sosd
Australia421 Posts
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. You cant go in right after a nexus cannon. It lasts a full minute. He can have so much more stuff by the time that happens. It's like when you're trying to by time against a Protoss whose moving out by dropping except you are risking nothing with a nexus cannon. | ||
Teoita
Italy12246 Posts
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Zealot Lord
Hong Kong740 Posts
On May 03 2013 19:54 shid0x wrote: Protoss has always been a strong race Strong on ladder yes, but it was clearly the weakest race at GSL skill levels for the overall scope of the WoL era - protoss needed help getting into the midgame against terran/zerg without always playing at a deficit. Yes, the MSC is strong, and perhaps the photon overcharge needs a bit of tweaking here or there, but its far from imbalanced. | ||
axgxFighter
24 Posts
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askmc70
United States722 Posts
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nkr
Sweden5451 Posts
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gamerdude12345
Korea (South)378 Posts
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On May 03 2013 20:25 Hemling wrote: Good questions! Sieging outside range while nexutary fortress is up is just temporary, its a good starting position to make bunkers and seting up the inevitable clash between forces, I usually take a trip up to the main with the banshees while waiting for nex fortress to inactivate. If your up against a 1base protoss build you have the 111 as a very good versatile defense, detection from raven, more then enough marines against oracle and a good infrastructure if you decide to expand before the toss and take the game to the midgame, There's no reason to abuse the timeing if the toss doesnt have an expansion to punish. The 111 is by no means imbalanced and can be stopped like all builds, its just a good opener relevant to the topic because i dont think its "impossible" to attack the protoss before 12min mark. I must point out that you'll have to wait for 2 overcharges ( ie. 2 minutes ), not just one. At the timing you attack, the MScore will have enough energy for two. Two more minutes where Protoss is on 2 mining bases, adding more gates, producing more units, compared to the same build in WoL. That makes it much, much weaker. | ||
drop271
New Zealand286 Posts
On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote: And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted | ||
axgxFighter
24 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote: And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. Everything you described can be scouted and there are signs that the protoss is going proxy Oracles as soon as they take double gas. If you don't see that gas invested some place, like sentries, there is a good chance the oracle is coming. Also, can the protoss even build a stalker if they push out a 5:33 oracle? | ||
gillon
Sweden1578 Posts
On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote: 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted Oracle is out before a mine can be out with a 15 gas. Is terran supposed to gas first fact rush to get mine out to expo and therefore be miles behind every game, or do you simply not have a clue? I'm guessing it's the second part. | ||
FirstGear
Australia185 Posts
The one thing I find most skewed about TvP is the lategame. I find the control needed in lategame engages significantly higher for terran. Personally I struggle to hit all the snipes, kite with the bio and split + focus colossi with vikings. Sniping and emping all the HTs I find especially hard. Often I will miss one or 2 templar and just lose the game from epic storms. Conversely I find lategame protoss control much easier, because storm wins. As terran, it feels like playing on a knifes edge. I don't think its imbalanced necessarily, just much harder at my level of macro and control. Early game as terran I've never lost a game without being able to highlight my specific mistake, so while I'd prefer both races had 1 base all ins, ultimately mothership core (photon overcharge) is pretty important for pvp especially. On May 03 2013 20:24 Topdoller wrote: Stop whining just because Terran cant win in the first 10 mins of the game with Stim timing pushes. Zerg can make the exact same claim about Terran early game.Too many Terrans want a 1/1/1 "Puma" builds to auto win against Protoss. Those days are long gone thank god Early roach attacks and baneling busts are very common now that terran are frequently opening double reaper/cc first into triple cc +hellions. They often do win the game that fast. | ||
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