this is amazing - this is my exact(!) problem right now. that protoss has 40 different cheeses and even the different cheeses have variety --
i especially struggle with figuireing out what follows up a proxy stargate, - they can expand, they can 4gate and bust down your front with oracles. then 4 gate warpprism - forcefielding your ramp with sentries and oracle support- there is just too many options. like yesterday i lost against a protoss just walking up forcefielding my ramp- killing all my scvs at the natural - because i was expecting either blink stalkers or sentry drop - but then he was doing an immortal all-in off 2 bases. and wasn't even an all-in , was a expand pressure build. instant lose. im like --- trust me, none of my expand pressures out right kills a protoss, thats retarded to even think it would. but the truth is that with a 12 rax/12 gas --> reaper --> stim --> 7-8 marine(snipeing sentrys / msc) --> follows it up with mass marines + medivacs(with expand allthough) - can't even beat triple nexus. it just feels like the amount i have to scout is insane, on a little map like neo planet s - you have to scout(spawning top right) downwards / the huge middle area / top left, and the problem with this - is that some tosses just make the stargate in their base. so they can make a expand + pheonix follow up or whatever.. it just seems retardedly easy to mind-game a terran. like if you actually know how to prevent scv scouting (herpderp 1 stalker in front of baseLOL) and knows how to hide tech- in a corner or whatever.
and for me the worst part is actually that the worst solution for me - is that the protoss just outright chooses to expand, since that means i have to play vs templers + collosus at some point.
when i heard about boosters for medivacs, i didn't know that we we're going to trade it for 4 new different all-ins / pressure builds + makeing it impossible to ever do a counter pressure push. due to msc.
On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote: re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
If you have any links of terran 1 base all ins succeeding at a tournament level, without protoss making huge errors, I'd love to see them. Both to work out how to stop them and how to execute them. Standard protoss play should shut all that down very very hard. Photon overcharge shuts down drops early (focusing the medivac). Standard toss play ends up with double nexus 3 gate robo (for obs for mine drops/cloak banshees). Stalker kiting/gateway units/mothership core has shut down every terran mass marine 1 base Ive ever seen. Old style 2 rax (reactor tech lab) is hard countered by protoss air and therefore a total coin flip. Obviously scouting is important but that really isnt very hard with probe into stalkers/mothership core and later air/hallu/obs.
I never said it had to be 1 base: what photon overcharge?
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I am at work, I will watch it when I get home. But if these are builds that delay warpgate and the first stalker, it is scoutable.
I'm telling you, scouting it isn't the problem. You come in, see 2 gas and WG not researching and you know what it is. You then realize that "Holy shit, I should've started an ebay 20 seconds ago to have a turret for it, and I'm gonna have 2-4 marines when it enters my main, what do I do?".
I don't even know, bunker in main mineral line? It won't cover shit, will fuck up mining and protoss can in all honesty probably just sit and laugh while expanding and be ahdead.
On May 03 2013 21:34 Elwar wrote: Most maps have really close three bases, if you position your army near the third and have your mothership core defend both your main+natural it seems even easier to defend medivacs with warpins than in WoL tbh.
I don't think many Terrans understand just how little damage the nexus cannon really does. It's so effective against early game attacks because Terran bio has very low HP and relies on kiting to avoid damage, and of course you can't kite against overcharge. However, it cannot out-dps the healing from a single Medivac. 3 Medivacs of bio easily crushes a 6-unit warpin and then will proceed to stim down the nexus without losing much of anything. 2 Medivacs can even do it if you manage to drop behind the minerals or someplace where geometry prevents Zealots from attacking.
For overcharge to be useful against drops, you have to scout the drop well in advance. If the cannon is activated before Terran starts dropping, they have to retreat because Medivacs can't heal while unloading. Activating the cannon as units are unloading behind your minerals will not save you from the drop. If you target the bio, it'll never die due to healing. Your best option is to target the medivacs so Terran can't escape but if you don't bring up units ASAP the nexus gets stimmed down.
On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote: [quote] And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense.
How do you get inside a protoss base once he has a stalker and MSC out?
With a reaper. The build they are talking about involves not getting warpgate or a stalker and dumping all gas into an early proxy stargate.
Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
On May 03 2013 21:34 Elwar wrote: Most maps have really close three bases, if you position your army near the third and have your mothership core defend both your main+natural it seems even easier to defend medivacs with warpins than in WoL tbh.
I don't think many Terrans understand just how little damage the nexus cannon really does. It's so effective against early game attacks because Terran bio has very low HP and relies on kiting to avoid damage, and of course you can't kite against overcharge. However, it cannot out-dps the healing from a single Medivac
The role of the canon is to make protoss safer in the early game. It does exactly that. It delays any early game aggression by full minute. A minute is quite big in Sc2, especially among pros.
Proxy stargate is a very strong build. But it can be denied SO easly. Just send out your lazy marines and scout it out. The proxy locations are so damn obvious. This game is just no longer 1rack expanding every game till the end of time. You have to adapt. Just as what protoss did vs zerg taking a third early...
In the end, this is so fun to see Terran complaining after a few year of free FE that can now be punished like shit. it's time to scout again, and to play less greedy.
On May 03 2013 21:50 Xequecal wrote:I don't think many Terrans understand just how little damage the nexus cannon really does. It's so effective against early game attacks because Terran bio has very low HP and relies on kiting to avoid damage, and of course you can't kite against overcharge. However, it cannot out-dps the healing from a single Medivac. 3 Medivacs of bio easily crushes a 6-unit warpin and then will proceed to stim down the nexus without losing much of anything. 2 Medivacs can even do it if you manage to drop behind the minerals or someplace where geometry prevents Zealots from attacking.
For overcharge to be useful against drops, you have to scout the drop well in advance. If the cannon is activated before Terran starts dropping, they have to retreat because Medivacs can't heal while unloading. Activating the cannon as units are unloading behind your minerals will not save you from the drop. If you target the bio, it'll never die due to healing. Your best option is to target the medivacs so Terran can't escape but if you don't bring up units ASAP the nexus gets stimmed down.
3 medivacs? For the stage of the game where drops are most viable (mid game) thats generally a doom drop. If you let 3 full medivacs drop you and take down your nexus you played awfully be it in WoL or HoTS. The medivac boost barely plays into the success of such an attack.
The strength of terran drops has always been picking at the economy and outlying buildings/tech. Nexus cannon makes attacks on mineral lines dramatically less effective, requiring an order of magnitude more attention from the terran and is a bigger commital (because as you said, the medivacs get targeted). Basically the risk/reward has gone way askew and the ease of defence has gone way up. Seems pretty evident to me. Watch most pro PvT, the drop play has drastically decreased from WoL - its success even less -, the opposite of the other two matchups and against Blizzards stated intentions.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
Hmm I thought the current mind set of Terran in all matchups is -> scout all and defend it into an eco advantage, for a superior midgame with the potential to finish the game or get ahead into the lategame, which is needed as our late game transition takes years compared to a toss. That excludes early game aggression since you put alot into scouting and it is actually the right way against a protoss, as they have the map control once a Stalker is out.
People have a point when they say it is impossible to prevent a reaper scout, but they adapted to it and know how to hide things now, which before they didn't have to do so the scouting was way easier.
Protoss was really hard pressed by the Speedmedivacs, so they had to find a solution for that first and afterwards they could start to think about the rest, right now we are at this point were Terran needs to think of something new and not open the same way every game on every map. I started to like my Techlab again.
Can't say that I agree with this! Theory crafting, you can always make something look lopsided. When I play TvP, I can always find lots of holes (low GM level I suppose), and when I play PvT, it certainly doesn't feel like early game T attacks are impotent (especially 'clever attacks' and multi-pronged ones). Frontal stim attacks aren't as good anymore as in Wings and they shouldn't be. There's also two that can play the greed game. FlasH lost on Star Station against PartinG, but that's because literally everything went perfectly for PartinG.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate.
Stop be dramatic. The protoss sunk 300 gas into that oracle and a ton of chrono. Their warpgate is delayed along with their second and 3rd date. They can't march in with a mob of stalkers.
On May 03 2013 19:54 shid0x wrote: Protoss has always been a strong race
Strong on ladder yes, but it was clearly the weakest race at GSL skill levels for the overall scope of the WoL era - protoss needed help getting into the midgame against terran/zerg without always playing at a deficit. Yes, the MSC is strong, and perhaps the photon overcharge needs a bit of tweaking here or there, but its far from imbalanced.
I agree with that, but what bothers me a bit, though, is the sheer upgrade advantage protoss gained through impementing the MSC. It is way easier now for Protoss to survive the early game without getting behind economically, so they benefit even more from chronoboosting their (prev. buffed due to high costs of Protoss units/tech) upgrades.
I'm just a dia Terran and I'm only mostly playing mech except for TvP, so I have inferior bio micro (especially mid-/lategame engagements, controlling ghosts, vikings, splitting your army etc.) and therefore think it's my weakest MU, but it still feels like an uphill-battle every game trying to be as greedy as you can without neglecting the (many) possible aggressive openings two-gas Protoss players have up their sleeves, just because early aggression is either not that viable anymore (simply 3-raxing or even 4-6 raxing can be deflected with relative ease using Planetary Nexus and proper FF/Time-Warps) or just too risky (if you don't do huge amounts of damage or disrupt your opponent enough macro-wise you don't have much left at home to defend).
Further contributing to that is the (not THAT) current trend of creating bigger maps that are more macro-friendly instead of providing a variety of different-sized maps for a more diverse use of strategies (that one new ladder-map is a nice approach, but it could be done way better), but that's another story, I guess.
My overall impression is HotS has a pretty decent balance right now, which could be tweaked here and there (e.g. nerfing Hellbat damage slightly), but such things as Oracle speed buff are not really needed IMO. Let's just wait and see how things will turn out to be.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
My personal experience (top 25 diamond Terran) is that Colossus play is relatively easy to deal with: I've gone through my replays and I have something like a 65% winrate where Protoss players commit to colossus attacks, whether a mid-game timing or (for whatever reason) lategame. The real kicker is the storm/archon/zealot style that Parting showed against Flash, which just feels like it requires so much more micro from a Terran to play against (splits, storm dodges, ghost micro, constant dropping to keep shaving parts off the deathball) than it does to execute. Storm is so different in SC2 because of the way units clump up together that it's massively more effective. With regards to timings: Protoss players have so much 2 gas 1 base options that it's ceased to be funny, and if the proposed oracle changes go through I can see most Terrans at anything other than the absolute highest level having to play incredibly passive in the early game in order to get the early marines requisite to hold off even faster proxy oracle timings. I have no issue with Protoss having a slightly better lategame, but the early game tools this expansion has given them takes away a lot of the Terran opportunity to delay/shave parts off of/cripple that 'deathball'.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?