On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard.
That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs.
The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt.
Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
I largely agree with what you are saying, but I think there are definitely options that just have yet to be explored in the metagame. I think you should also take a look at the MLG exhibition series final between CJ hero and MKP. MKP does some interesting early timings that are pretty all in, and admittedly they could have been stopped by better scouting/defense from the protoss player, but the point being MKP played well and did make it work.
I don't think the parting flash series is particularly a good argument for your point either..Game one parting had nearly perfect play in every stage of the game and there was a razor thin line between him holding and crumbling there as Flash's army supply advantage grew. In game 2 I've seen MC do very similar builds and Flash pretty much just failed to recognize or scout the main of parting on 2 base to recognize that scary all in. If he had, he would have had a better chance to win.
I do agree that anything in TvP relies on the protoss making mistakes or being caught very off guard to lose a game. One change I would like to see that wouldn't necessarily fix the super early game (of which im not convinced there arent aggressive all ins that can work against greedy toss, or that protoss all ins are a problem), but would maybe fix some of the ultra greedy openers..is to increase the time of the Storm and Thermal Lance upgrades. Because they still will have a hard time for a short window after their tech is unlocked, they would have to invest a little more into army as well. This is where the "Parting Build" in general just bothers me a bit as a Terran player. I think we can all agree once storm is out you basically have to completely overwhelm your opponent and hope for the best or back the hell off a protoss. You basically cannot attack them anymore unless you want to risk dying a very quick death. Thats all fine and good, protoss needs options to defend and build an army/take a 3rd. The problem being...you really cannot hit a timing as a terran before storm. The second that templar archive is out..you just cannot risk an attack timing. The upgrade is SO fast..and if you get in there and storm finishes 5 seconds into the fight.. you are going to lose everything. I think making it so that a top player can actually hit a 30 second timing window with some certainty would maybe encourage some more smart crisp timings in the pro level.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
And you lose like shit vs 2+ reaper in your base while you go for late stalker. As others said, whine post to me.
What the hell are you people talking ? If Terran goes 2+ reapers, he will lose to proxy oracles instantly. Reapers won't do enough damage before stalker comes out. And Terran will have like 2-3 marines out if he did two reapers FE, while it takes 6 of them to kill a single oracle. Oracle will kill so many workers, that it will be impossible to play from that point. And if you go something silly like 2 reapers FE into really fast ebay and three fast turrets (1 in each mineral line and 1 to defend your tech lab with stim) you will get rolled by 3 gate stargate all-in. And people saying, go for mines. Well yeah, that is good against stargate play, but suck against every FE build protoss can do. And most of the time, you commit for going 1/1/1 before you know that protoss is going to do proxy stargate play (unless it's 2 player map and you do faster scout with SCV and notice that protoss took really fast two gas and lacks a pylon in his main but yet they can go proxy stargate after first stalker.). And 1/1/1 FE (may it be mine drops with frontal marine push, or hellion drop with frontal marine push) it just sucks against any FE builds and does like zero damage against good toss. You will play from behind all game long. I myself most of the time do 1/1/1 FE just because to be safe from various cheeses protoss can throw. But if protoss does a FE build, you have to outplay him during mid game in order to have a chance at winning that match. Also, about reaper FE. While it can be good for scouting proxy stargate/or getting information that it's going to be proxy stargate, reaper openings are quite weak against blink all-ins (which is actually close-to impossible to hold on some maps with FE builds) and 3 gate robo immortal busts. And you can see that in some games as well. People go for fast proxy robo, making you think that it's stargate (because of current meta), while they pump fast immortals and push when they have two or three of them. And holding this cheese, you need like 4 bunkers, which you obviously won't build unless you know that immortal bust is coming. And then there is a possibility of getting DT dropped. Well at least for me, TvP early game feels really scary. So many ways to get crippled, and very few ways to stop early protoss greed.
(Master League, mid) Some time ago I always encountered DTs in the Early game, it seemed very hard to punish a protoss for it(if not impossible). The dmg a Warp Prism DT does even if scouted was rly annoying, you feel like you cant attack properly, only if you make a painful switch to a raven (or save lots of Scans).
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote: [quote] And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting...
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment".
Early game TvP has been broken in HOTS for a while now. Protoss has ways to outright autowin the game vs Terran with literally1 unit sometimes (oracle/dts/blink stalker) where Terran has no way to outright kill a Protoss...EVER.
Basically, this thread is spot on, but blizzard probably won't do shit about it because of the fervor around "T OP."
The early game is indeed broken though, 1 base all-ins are unscoutable, it's just a guessing game, The game you think he proxied a stargate where you didn't find it with your reaper, he could have proxed a robo instead, or he could have just put it in base.
Or a twilight council, or gateways, or he's mind fucking you and just playing standard macro with no risk ever.
I think 1 thing Blizzard could do to help alleviate the issue of Protoss being able to autowin games whereas Terran cannot even attack...remove ebay requirement from missile turrets, this way if someone is proxying oracles, or going DTS, you can throw up turrets in appropriate time.
Right now, the match-up is basically bullshit because of opening build orders / Protoss can abuse freewins and simply never will die because apparently blizzard thought it would be a good idea to allow Protoss to have a range 13 Planetary Fortress at both of their bases at the 7 minute mark. The rest of the match-up past that point is balanced though.
I'm glad someone made this thread to discuss this, because there truly is a problem with the match-up.
yes but i feel like terran greedy is with many risky protoss greedy even vs aggresive play nearly imposiible to break many times cause canon in mine lines + mc core and few stalkers that hold nearly everything terran can send out even one base attack...So i find only way to counter this is risk that this protoss play common and go ultra greedy that cost me game vs protoss all ins sometimes. But now is all about reaper scout.
"Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment"."
And would it not make sense for pro players to be biased? In fact, I would go as far as to say that pro players are on average more bias than amateur players because there is more at stake for them. I can neither deny nor confirm that Grubby is biased. Could it conceivably be the case the he is bias? Yes, absolutely. Does he have more reason than any of us to be bias? Yes. Does this mean he is biased? No.
That's what I said and it is absolutely true. I respect Grubby, so please don't make me look like the bad guy here, I even think his qualities would make him a better terran player than protoss player (sick multitasking and micro), but that's just my opinion. I'm definitely not hating on Grubby, not at all, he is awesome.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting...
That's SC2, sometimes you contain you opponent to gain an economic advantage and get a more robust, strong army later in the game. There is more than one way to kill your opponent.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
http://drop.sc/330210 check it out, i don't play protoss but my oracle is there before you have your mine out and i can still push at 6 minutes with some units, so obviously i would wait for another round. Just an example of how basically you have to open reaper or you die. aka your build is a bo loss.
Your oracle was out at the same time as my mine, you had no expo and those units would be denied by one bunker. I don't see imbalance there sorry. I'll grant you that I would of course lose a handful of scvs, but not enough to put me behind.
On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote: re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
If you have any links of terran 1 base all ins succeeding at a tournament level, without protoss making huge errors, I'd love to see them. Both to work out how to stop them and how to execute them. Standard protoss play should shut all that down very very hard. Photon overcharge shuts down drops early (focusing the medivac). Standard toss play ends up with double nexus 3 gate robo (for obs for mine drops/cloak banshees). Stalker kiting/gateway units/mothership core has shut down every terran mass marine 1 base Ive ever seen. Old style 2 rax (reactor tech lab) is hard countered by protoss air and therefore a total coin flip. Obviously scouting is important but that really isnt very hard with probe into stalkers/mothership core and later air/hallu/obs.
I never said it had to be 1 base: what photon overcharge?
I love that you linked it, because I actually stole all of MKPs builds from that tourney and that is the exact cheese i use. I don't feel its as good as that vod suggests though. Hero was playing pretty damn greedy with only 2 sentries and a mothership core by 7.40 as his entire army. He skipped the stalker, didn't control the watchtowers, teched into warpprism robo bay double upgrades with 6 army supply. As said in the cast if the build is scouted it just doesn't work. Even with forcefields hero still might have held it (though I doubt it) and then mkp probably wouldve died to the colossi counter. I'm a bit sad he wiffed his forcefields so badly because I would like to know how mkp wouldve transitioned out of it doing less damage (and held a possible colossi counter). That said it certainly can work and is fun to mix in occasionally.
Most of the time I play his cc first into triple rax stim drops build though. Macro macro macro ftw.