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bullshit -terran master
User was warned for this post
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On May 03 2013 22:11 Xequecal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard. That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs. The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt. Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is:
4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins"
Lots of ways for Protoss to build order win the game. Now Terran's options:
1/1/1 widow mine drop -> protoss NEVER loses to this anymore, and mines easily mitigated + using planetary nexus 1 rax FE -> abusable by any 1 base all-in, Zero chance to outright win the game
There is a huge discrepency in opening build orders where Terran cannot ever outright win a game, whereas Protoss not only has about 10+ more different options, but all of those options can outright win the game because Terran is literally guessing what the Protoss is doing.
The other issue is proxy oracles/new cheap DT shrine/+new cheap blink stalker all-in only requiring MSC. These things require completely different responses, and in the case of the first two, you need an e-bay extremely early on in the game, which is 125 minerals + 200 minerals for missile turrets, + the 100 mineral defensive bunker = 425 minerals = Protoss can autowin the game at ZERO risk because they can throw up a nexus that's 400 minerals and then rely on Planetary nexus to hold off anything Terran can do.
A lot of times you can play completely "safe" and still lose to all-ins in TvP. There's a problem with the match-up when you're not even being greedy and can still die to 1 base protoss because of your opponent simply executing an opening build order.
The risk-reward is not right in opening builds right now, where Protoss has very few to no risks, and Terran can outright lose games from easily executed builds, the most common right now being proxy oracles where even Progamers have lost AFTER SCOUTING THE PROXY STARGATE.
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On May 03 2013 22:30 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:24 shadymmj wrote:On May 03 2013 22:19 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio. You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game? so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting... That's SC2, sometimes you contain you opponent to gain an economic advantage and get a more robust, strong army later in the game. There is more than one way to kill your opponent.
TvZ got awful due to this precise reason in WoL. no rush and max greed on both sides was the better way to win.
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On May 03 2013 22:35 axgxFighter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:24 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:20 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:16 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:12 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:09 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:07 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:00 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:54 axgxFighter wrote:Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that. Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese... People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway. How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss? I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either) What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond? Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question. There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though. "'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'" What troubles you with this? "I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to." That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different. Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment". DUMBED DOWN VERSION: I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
Good lord this is painful. I'll use your language and "dumb it down" a touch further: SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond Plansix: what about grubby, he's not diamond SlicSC: I'm not saying he's biased. And I don't like arguments from authority. Drop: if you're not suggesting he's biased then why did you bring it up, and you just made an argument from authority yourself
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On May 03 2013 22:35 axgxFighter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:24 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:20 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:16 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:12 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:09 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:07 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:00 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:54 axgxFighter wrote:Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that. Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese... People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway. How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss? I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either) What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond? Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question. There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though. "'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'" What troubles you with this? "I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to." That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different. Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment". DUMBED DOWN VERSION: I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
I don't see why people take issue with this? If I played SC2 for a living I wouldn't want to ever see my race nerfed, because that could essentially equal less money. It doesn't mean that everyone who plays SC2 for a living is necessarily bias, but they have reason to be, moreso than amateur players. And I never said Grubby had to rely on luck, so don't put words in my mouth please. Grubby is insanely talented at RTS games and he will at some point be good enough to win a major tournament, regardless of the strength of his race. He was very close to winning a major tournament in WoL so I don't see how that opinion is controversial.
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I really don't know why this thread is still up. Most of it is balance whining and should be posted in the designated balance thread.
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On May 03 2013 22:37 axgxFighter wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:30 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:23 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 22:00 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:54 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:43 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:31 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran. Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy. 1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance. Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33 There: http://drop.sc/330203I'll grab that apology now thanks Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that. Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese... http://drop.sc/330210 check it out, i don't play protoss but my oracle is there before you have your mine out and i can still push at 6 minutes with some units, so obviously i would wait for another round. Just an example of how basically you have to open reaper or you die. aka your build is a bo loss. Your oracle was out at the same time as my mine, you had no expo and those units would be denied by one bunker. I don't see imbalance there sorry. I'll grant you that I would of course lose a handful of scvs, but not enough to put me behind. The oracle was in that base 2 seconds before your wm popped out. You would have to chase the oracle around with the mines to kill it and it could still work around the wm. You would no doubt pull marines and I would kill them and that would make the follow up push stronger.
How much longer would that follow up push take? You only have one gateway without warpgate. You have dropped 300 gas into an orcale that did minimal damage and your still on 1 base. Even if you deny the expansion for a while, the terran can just button down and ride it out until he can take his expansion.
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On May 03 2013 22:31 Sated wrote:I'm guessing OP didn't watch the WCS EU Premier Qualifiers, where Bunny managed to knock out several notable Protoss players using Hellbat drops... EDIT: As for the people complaining about 1 base Protoss all-ins, it sounds like many Terran players have forgotten that a 1 base Terran > 1 base Protoss. You don't need to scout which Protoss 1 base all-in is coming your way, all you need to know is that the Protoss hasn't expanded. Simply stop being greedy, lift your natural and defend your main ramp using Bunkers, because if the Protoss can't kill you before Medivacs and Stim are out then they're probably going to die to your counter attack. Why? Because they won't have splash damage ready to deal with your forces. Terran players are just so used to dealing with everything using a single build that they can't adapt. That's why this whining exists. It's funny, because all they really need to do it make the same type of small adjustments and responses that Protoss had to do in WoL (source: PvT Scouting).
Wrong. That was wings of liberty. Protoss no longer ever dies to 1 base Terran because they have a planetary fortress available 6-7 minutes into the game on either nexus.
No one is complaining about Protoss all-ins. There are legitimate concerns that right now the match-up is a slot machine where Protoss can outright win the game with 2 units, and Terran has no equivalent where Terran can simply autowin the game.
Terran 100% has to play into a macro game past the 10 minute mark, whereas Protoss can play a greedy macro game or just choose a myriad of 1 base plays that are not easily scoutable, and can autowin the game.
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On May 03 2013 22:40 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:35 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 22:24 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:20 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:16 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:12 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:09 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:07 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:00 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 21:54 axgxFighter wrote: [quote]
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that. Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese... People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway. How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss? I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either) What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond? Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question. There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though. "'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'" What troubles you with this? "I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to." That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different. Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment". DUMBED DOWN VERSION: I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either) Good lord this is painful. I'll use your language and "dumb it down" a touch further: SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond Plansix: what about grubby, he's not diamond SlicSC: I'm not saying he's biased. And I don't like arguments from authority. Drop: if you're not suggesting he's biased then how is the suggestion relevant, and you just made an argument from authority yourself
"SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond"
That's not at all what I said. I said people like you are the reason nobody listen to Diamond players, because your are wrong. It's not the other way around. You are wrong, that's why nobody listen to you, and subsequently you are giving diamond league players a bad reputation because your arguments are terrible.
You are twisting my words here 180°.
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On May 03 2013 22:39 sAsImre wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:30 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:24 shadymmj wrote:On May 03 2013 22:19 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio. You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game? so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting... That's SC2, sometimes you contain you opponent to gain an economic advantage and get a more robust, strong army later in the game. There is more than one way to kill your opponent. TvZ got awful due to this precise reason in WoL. no rush and max greed on both sides was the better way to win.
Holding off speed vac drops and attempting to push out and take a third base is anything but boring as a protoss. I would call it stressful and kind of exciting.
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On May 03 2013 22:42 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:40 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:35 axgxFighter wrote:On May 03 2013 22:24 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:20 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:16 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:12 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:09 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:07 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:00 drop271 wrote: [quote]
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese... People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway. How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss? I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either) What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond? Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question. There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though. "'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'" What troubles you with this? "I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to." That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different. Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment". DUMBED DOWN VERSION: I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either) Good lord this is painful. I'll use your language and "dumb it down" a touch further: SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond Plansix: what about grubby, he's not diamond SlicSC: I'm not saying he's biased. And I don't like arguments from authority. Drop: if you're not suggesting he's biased then how is the suggestion relevant, and you just made an argument from authority yourself "SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond" That's not at all what I said. I said people like you are the reason nobody listen to Diamond players, because your are wrong. It's not the other way around. You are wrong, that's why nobody listen to you, and subsequently you are giving diamond league players a bad reputation because your arguments are terrible. You are twisting my words here 180°.
He is pointing out that by your arguments, your own insights into balance are also invalid because you are either bias or not skilled enough.
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good post, agree with the most part
people need to understand its not balance whining but more variety of play whning.
It's not very fun to play tvp when u have only 1 or 2 way to play when P has like 10 ways to play it, included macro or allin styles...
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On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
EDIT: Got the numbers wrong. There is a 60 second duration.
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You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
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On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
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On May 03 2013 22:50 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight. 20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha. Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse. Also, if you cast timewarp, you don't get to use nexus cannon unless your magic and have unlimited early energy.
Seriously, he is right. Protoss players could make the exact same arguments about proxy terran builds, roach rushes and every other hard to scout all in that they lose too.
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On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
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On May 03 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:50 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight. 20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha. On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out. Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse.
Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead?
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