Early->Mid Game TvP Needs to Be Addressed - Page 8
Forum Index > Closed |
larse
1611 Posts
| ||
padfoota
Taiwan1571 Posts
On May 03 2013 23:27 Xequecal wrote: Did you even READ my post, like, at all? I just said I think Terran needs to stop depot walling the top of their ramp to avoid donating 2 supply depots for free against allins. Like I just said, anything that beats Oracles also beats DTs. DTs are just bad before the late game where you can try to backstab expansions, if they have a single turret you lose the game automatically. Widow mines annihilate void ray allins and blink allins. I've seen blink allin beaten unscouted just by Terran abandoning their natural and continuing to tech, then steamrolling Protoss when stim and medivacs come out. 4 gate warp prism is an awful, awful strat that beats nothing, you can beat it with 6 marines and all your SCVs. And come on, 4-gate? That's been dead since 1.02. I have fond memories of 6 stalkers and 4 zealots losing to 3 marines in an unkillable bunker. If you make an early e-bay and 2 widow mines for defense as soon as your factory finishes you can beat any allin there is. This is not super expensive. It doesn't stop you from expanding. Terrans are, quite frankly, playing ridiculously greedy out of some pathological fear of the late game, and are trying to defend allins with 1 rax marines only. They feel that if they can't inflict huge damage with drops in the midgame the game is lost, so they cut every corner to get the drops going ASAP. Nah we either drop then all in or just flat all in. Flash needs to learn that in his game vs parting...he wouldve won easily if he simply dragged the lot of his scvs after sniping that third instead of kiting for 5 years while floating enough money for 5 command centers. You already saw what happened that game with late game TvP | ||
Cloak
United States816 Posts
| ||
axgxFighter
24 Posts
| ||
Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
| ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 03 2013 23:42 axgxFighter wrote: For one thing, walling off your ramp rarely causes you to lose depos to all-ins and it BUYS YOU TIME. Turrets can deal with dts and I've been recently blindly making turrets once I get my ebay up cause of the popularity of dts right now. But oracles come a tad bit fast but most people don't opt for the super fast oracle so that's fine. Widow mines don't beat voidray all-ins, they take more then 1 shot. Not quite sure how to stop it because I have yet to encounter it but I'd imagine I'd make a turret near my bunker and make as many marines as I could, maybe a viking. Blink can be a bitch and if you go back into your main the protoss can macro behind their build and if they are good enough, be ahead. 4 gate warp prism will beat 6 marines, they dont normally warp it right in front of your face... Also, 4 gate still works just fine on maps where your choke isn't a ramp. If you make an early ebay and widowmines you can not only hold only a couple all-ins, but you will be behind if they dont do any all-in. Immortal bust is not very well countered by an early ebay and widowmines. Blizzard themselves have come out and said YOU NEED TO WIN THE LATE GAME, THIS GAME IS BALANCED BECAUSE TERRAN WINS FROM AN ADVANTAGE IN THE LATE GAME. that was back in wol. What would you have terrans do? How did the protoss get a 4 gate warp prism out and you have only built 6 marines? If this is the state of your standing army when you scout a one base protoss, you may wish to reconsider the builds you are using. | ||
axgxFighter
24 Posts
| ||
Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 03 2013 23:42 axgxFighter wrote: Widow mines don't beat voidray all-ins, they take more then 1 shot. Not quite sure how to stop it because I have yet to encounter it but I'd imagine I'd make a turret near my bunker and make as many marines as I could, maybe a viking. The mines aren't there to kill the void rays, they're there to explode the stalkers if they try to move up and snipe your marines. Protoss can't detect them off an SG allin so they just whittle the Protoss army down over time, and you can start making more as soon as he starts attacking. Blink can be a bitch and if you go back into your main the protoss can macro behind their build and if they are good enough, be ahead. 4 gate warp prism will beat 6 marines, they dont normally warp it right in front of your face... If he expands, you will crush him by just attacking as stim finishes. He has a bunch of zero-dps stalkers and no tech, it doesn't really matter that he's a bunch of supply ahead, his units don't do anything. The best way to lose to a blink allin is to get your stim research sniped, avoid that and you can just counterattack for the win with your first two medivacs. 4-gate warp prism is useless. I said it before, just pull ALL your workers and attack move into it. So what if he has 8 zealots and 4 stalkers in your base? You can lose every single SCV and you are still at a massive advantage because you have an expansion and mules against his 19 probes and no expansion. If you make an early ebay and widowmines you can not only hold only a couple all-ins, but you will be behind if they dont do any all-in. Immortal bust is not very well countered by an early ebay and widowmines. See, this is the same "avoid the late game at all costs" thinking again. How are you behind? They have to make a MSC and several observers with standard macro play, that costs a lot more. | ||
Mansef
59 Posts
After TvZ settles down and is evenly balanced I think TvP is going to be the next matchup everyone looks too as imbalanced or unwinnable or whatever/ | ||
axgxFighter
24 Posts
| ||
avilo
United States4100 Posts
On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote: This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line... So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss. This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time. Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips. | ||
MaFFGeeK
United States47 Posts
In WoL my best match up by far was TvP, I had a 70% win rate on ladder vs protoss consistently. It was easy to scout different allins, then put a couple bunkers down to defend and a turret if they had 2 gas. It was also not too hard to punish them for being very greedy. In HotS I really agree with a lot of the OP. My winrate is down to about 40-45% vs protoss and I literally can't pressure them before I have medivacs out. I used to often do 1 rax gasless expand into 4 rax marine pressure then tech up to medivacs in WoL, but now even if they get 1 gate -> nexus -> 2x forge -> robo -> 2nd/3rd gate, the 4 rax pressure can't do damage because of photon overcharge. I don't think the game is necessarily imbalanced, as there are lots of holes in my later game tvp and of course my macro could use some work, but it's very annoying how greedy protoss can be now without being punished. | ||
mastman
United States4 Posts
| ||
Xequecal
United States473 Posts
On May 04 2013 00:00 axgxFighter wrote: Actually he can make oracles for detectors if he wants, that may take away from his all-in a tiny bit but he could. Losing all your scvs does not put you ahead because you have 2 mules -_- 2 mules is 320 minerals a minute... a protoss all-inning will probably have 16 probes on minerals, that's 640 minerals a minute. How far ahead are you again? Yes I know you can stop a warp prism 4 gate and quite easily. But not with 6 marines... The issue is protoss has so many all-ins and terran has none right now. None that actually works on good players. For instance a lot of players stop blink with tanks and oracles with mines, mean while the protoss just does their build and uses msc and is fine. Not much adaptation going on what so ever. Yes, you are far ahead. He has to spend 400 minerals on a nexus, you already have your expansion. You can produce SCVs at twice the rate he can produce probes. Any SCVs you produce are at full effectiveness immediately, any probes he produces do nothing until the nexus finishes. You are far ahead in economy, and his lack of gas is far more crippling for him than it is for you, as he needs gas-heavy units to have any chance at all against kiting bio. Trust me on this one, I used 4-gate warp prism a lot and got shown exactly how useless of a build it is. When you pull it on a Terran that went opened CC/rax/CC, get two rounds of warpins in his base before he even sees that it's there, and STILL get crushed by 5 marines and an SCV swarm, you'll see what I mean. | ||
Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
Wall-ins deny all ground scouting and marines on the perimeter shut down the MSC. Hallucination works but that also means you have 2 less forcefields/no guardian shield for when the all-in actually hits. It also doesn't come fast enough for some all-ins. And if you think that lategame is somehow Protoss favored, watch Thorzain versus Titan on Daybreak game 3 of the first set. Titan gets a 40 supply lead with better economy. But he tries to attack the third base and gets buried under a sea of instant-damage, energy-draining psi storms(EMPs). | ||
Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On May 04 2013 00:00 avilo wrote: So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss. This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time. Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips. But you know it is some sort of proxy non-sense if you see no units, no warpgate and the third plyon is no where to be seen in the protoss base. You don't need to invest in 2 turrets, just get the ebay and try to find the proxy building. You stock pile a few mines off the factory, save a few scans and wait for the stupid all in to come. None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. | ||
Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: But you know it is some sort of proxy non-sense if you see no units, no warpgate and the third plyon is no where to be seen in the protoss base. You don't need to invest in 2 turrets, just get the ebay and try to find the proxy building. You stock pile a few mines off the factory, save a few scans and wait for the stupid all in to come. None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. The difference is that if a Terran does it, it is mindgames. If a Protoss does it, it is coinflip, gimmick, omg, remove!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
Wingblade
United States1806 Posts
On May 04 2013 00:00 avilo wrote: So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss. This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time. Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips. So do a reaper opening. What reason is there to not spend just 50 gas to essentially have guaranteed scouting of everything in the Protoss main with a strong chance at getting another scouting opportunity later on. Not to mention a reaper opening is extremely good against nexus first. | ||
axgxFighter
24 Posts
| ||
TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes. Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too. | ||
| ||