I want this thread to be a discussion on the topic at hand, and I'll be totally honest I dont know how you fix it without breaking another matchup. That being said Starcraft 2 needs to be both fair and entertaining at the professional level, and reasonably balanced for the scrubs playing ladder. It's important that players on both sides of every matchup have the ability to both be aggressive and at the same time use the information given to them to be defensive.
From watching Dreamhack, and then into the GSL I haven't seen a Terran player be able to execute an early attack successfully on a Protoss player, no matter the level of greed the Protoss player is abusing. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 zealots and a pair of sentries as the defense for a Protoss player heading into the 10th or 11th minute of a game. The opposite is true of Protoss players being aggressive against Terrans. I've seen Terrans lose to oracles, 2stalker mc attacks, oracle busts, four gates, blink all ins, immortal busts and even dt's.
Protoss can easily, even with minimal to no scouting information defend Terran aggression without even having to deviate from their normal build. The basic point of MSC+3 warp gates and some form of detection will stop nearly any Terran attack early on in the game, up until the mid-late. There is very little extra preparation required to stop most Terran attacks, and with good reaction time + unit positioning it's fairly easy for a high level Protoss to stop Terran aggression. Case and point is Woongjin SoS going 1 gate expand directly into a 2rax bunker rush from bomber that he scouted, not even a second thought about canceling his nexus. The next game he kills him with a 3gate (bomber lost 19 scvs to the 3gate, when sOs expanded).
The reverse is simply not true. If the Terran player is unable to scout early aggression from the Protoss player there many situations where he simply dies. The frustration however does come from one specific front, but from the multiple different ways a Terran needs to defend. Couple that with the extreme difficulty Terran has in properly scouting and figuring out what Protoss is doing. The final nail in the coffin is all the different ways a Terran needs to prepare for the various all ins a Protoss can do. Most of them require very specific setups to defend and being safe against something is hard enough even with perfect information. The case here? Polt scouting grubby's proxy oracle twice and both times being unable to defend the oncoming attacks.
Then there the greedy Protoss. If the Protoss just simply goes for extremely fast upgrades and either fast Colossus or even more scary very fast upgrades and templar the Terran player can be in a world of trouble. The case study here is Parting vs. Flash where Flash is safe against proxy oracles, scouting for anything that Parting might be hiding etc. Then Flash simply can't out micro Zealot/Archon because the upgrades Parting has are first class, Flash just dies without so much as a whimper. Now I dont want to take anything away from Parting because he proved that his builds were air tight, and he played extremely well but it was hard to watch.
The ability to read what a Protoss player is doing is also extremely difficult right now, some of the best Korean terrans in the world are struggling to get a grasp on what their opponent is doing. Hell Flash seemed confused by what Parting was going to do. 2 Pylons, 350 mined gas, a Stalker and Mothership core could easily be any build Protoss has available, from proxy oracles, blink all ins, 2stalker mc rush, dt's or a fast expansion. There is not clear indication of aggression or macro play from that particular set of buildings. Add into the mixture the randomness and lack of polish on your average ladder and things can get extremely difficult in a hurry.
The discussion point is this though. Is there an imbalance in win/lose states to TvP in the first 11-12 minutes of the game. What do I mean by this? Well simply put there is no lose state for Protoss in the early game of TvP unless the Protoss player makes a mistake regarding control/map awareness. Protoss can play a safe build and be fine against anything Terran does, assuming they react in time. Terran on the other hand has multiple lose states unless they are specifically prepared to defend them.
TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
My conclusion here is pretty simple. Early->Mid game TvP really needs to be looked at and taken seriously by Blizzard. The matchup is quickly becoming a ladder nightmare for a lot of Terran players, and in tournament play it's starting to really lean in Protoss players favour where small advantages become huge ones when you involve the best players in the world. I would love to see the sub 12 minute matchup winrates for TvP, but I dont have access to those statistics.
Please for the love of god discuss recent pro games, your own experiences etc. I'm extremely interested in games where equally skilled players compete that go against what I'm presenting here, so link and bring evidence. Most importantly discuss things with intelligence and respect.
I want to make this point clear as well, even though it is basically unrelated to the discussion of this thread. I feel that Terran has a huge advantage in late game TvP, and with the right mixture of units+great control will ALWAYS win the fights. I think that is something that is better discussed in different threads.
TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
Thats a bit to harsh. Yes the MSC is strong, maybe a bit too strong but with speedmedivacs you still have options. Allins are always an issue as seen with Naniwa yesterday as shuttle scouted it but couldnt do anything because of his opening.
As a Terran you just need to be the better player like a league above or something like that but thats nothing new.
Good post. But I'm not sure what you're getting at...
I thought everyone knew that Protoss could do anything they want until 3rd base because of Nexus Cannon? This was common knowledge since early beta.
If Terran wants to win TvP in HotS there are 2 options:
+1/stim/combat shield timing; or
SCV pull with viking (if P opened colo) or ghost (if P opened templar) when Protoss is switching tech (colo <--> templar) while taking/or just after taking 3rd.
If neither if these timings are met it's a Protoss free win.
Hmm well for me personally on ladder it seems fine (I play Terran).
It's true that if a Protoss decides to do an attack off 1 base, it's pretty hard to tell which one it is. There are so many viable options, and all require completely different responses. Proxy oracle, proxy immortal, 4-gate, 3-gate voidray, DTs, DT with warp prism, blink, I'm sure there are more. If you prepare for all of them you will obviously be behind by far (turret at minerals, 2 bunkers in the front, turret at the front, saving scans, getting out a siege tank). That said, after being cheesed so many times I now build my CC on the high ground and never take my natural until I see Protoss expanded.
The 9-11m window where you have stim/shields, +1 (potentially even 1/1), a couple medivacs, is still quite scary I think. Protoss still can't take 3 bases and tech straight to templars for example. I think any early templar tech can be hard to hold, because you won't have storm in time to stop the early attacks (for example PartinG v Flash game 1, even though PartinG won he was clearly behind after the early game).
One thing I think is terrible, is that the oracle speed boost might go through. If there is one part of Protoss that doesn't need help it would be the 1-base all-ins.
Several of the top grandmasters on KR ladder are regularly opening with mine drops/hellion drops, sometimes with and sometimes without added marine pressure, and having a lot of success. The mothership core is strong at defending earlygame frontal attacks but it's not a free pass to make no units and it certainly doesn't mean the Protoss can always get away with no scouting.
And the matchup taken as a whole isn't currently particularly imbalanced, even at the top levels (I expect to get people disagreeing with this statement, but at present it's true). The period after stim+medivacs are done is still very dangerous for the Protoss and it's far from trivial to establish a 3rd base, that hasn't really changed at all.
That said, I agree with your point in general and I don't think reducing the duration of the nexus cannon to something like 40 seconds would break anything (although it'd make it harder to hold an expand in PvP ). I wouldn't object to Blizzard making that change, waiting a couple months and seeing what happens.
e: Wow the first few replies to the completely reasonable OP are just ridiculous balance whine. Terran is doing just fine, you're not losing your ladder games because of imbalance. Sorry.
Most proper TvP wins I've seen are the big scv pull allin that hits when Protoss tech switches or sometimes the old standard medivac timing, but that's becoming rare now. Before and after that brief timing Protoss is just stronger. I'm sure the winrates aren't that bad, but the matchup is retarded.
I would like to remind the Terran players about something you guys have been saying to Protosses complaining about the Medivac Ignite Afterburners strength constantly; 'you just have to learn how to deal with it, give it some time'.
There's enough opportunity for early aggression in my opinion. I agree Photon Overcharge shuts down most super early Marine all-ins, but early Factory play, drop play, or triggering early Photon Overcharge by a small force followed by a stronger follow up attack all have potential.
Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
you make it out to be that in mid game terran somehow lost their dominance in setting the pace of the game...
Drops are insanely good and the options are vast. Hellbats,mines, marines, marines with mines... normal hellions who are also far from shabby. Late game is also now way better than it was in WoL for terran - even the new ladder maps are great for drops. Now you need the early game to be a great opportunity for rather safe harrassment as well?
In addition if you commit to oracle for example you have to do damage the first time, once the T scouts it the timing window is over as about 1 turret shuts it down - something you can't say for a drop as units there are also good in a straight up fight if you don't carelessly lose them and 1 - hell most of the times more cannons, will do nothing against it.
Flash played bad compared to what he is capable of. I am a Parting fan and even I hoped for better games. In game 1 he completely fell apart in the late game and did not seem to know that to do. His mid game was extremely strong and he was in a great position to end it but did not and a high class player like Parting used that to his advantage. Happens at that level. Game 2 was really strange as Flash really misread the situation. This thread is terribly biased and lacks perspective it seems - and lol@ the scouting part... how will protoss scout more than the first rax and gas if T walls the ramp? Instead of losing the probe and gain almost nothing you rather do not scout at all and be more active on the map...
You sir are right. This is exactly whats been making me rage on ladder since hots. Protoss has always been a strong race so the aim since wol was to agress them early game in order for them to not grow up too Fast,but since MSC its nodaway impossible and they clan do whatever they want...Its feels unfair.
It is being addressed - the oracle is in for a buff. The design is what Blizzard always said - asymmetrical. Loss of terran early game option is supposedly recompensed with stronger mid-game.
On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: I want to make this point clear as well, even though it is basically unrelated to the discussion of this thread. I feel that Terran has a huge advantage in late game TvP, and with the right mixture of units+great control will ALWAYS win the fights. I think that is something that is better discussed in different threads.
I know you don't want to discuss lategame here, but...
On May 03 2013 19:39 Netsky wrote: Good post. But I'm not sure what you're getting at...
I thought everyone knew that Protoss could do anything they want until 3rd base because of Nexus Cannon? This was common knowledge since early beta.
If Terran wants to win TvP in HotS there are 2 options:
+1/stim/combat shield timing; or
SCV pull with viking (if P opened colo) or ghost (if P opened templar) when Protoss is switching tech (colo <--> templar) while taking/or just after taking 3rd.
If neither if these timings are met it's a Protoss free win.
I'm thinking this is relevant, since the early/midgame problem is even bigger if lategame isn't even an option.
I don't think the ghost/viking behind an orbital farm + scv sac spoon tactic really works anymore, since the toss can add tempests into his ball and force you into an awkward engagement, before your army can get big enough.
In pro-level games it should be expected that the Protoss player should be prepared for early pressure and vice versa strictly because they are pros. Im in GM and unless you're 100% confident in what you are doing you will get shut down hard. Admittedly now I use 2 sentries a stalker and a MSC but in WoL I had to dedicate more economy to defend against Terran players to the point where I was behind when defending a group of 4-6 marines. It was ridiculous. Now when I hit midgame I never feel like I'm always in an uphill battle. I feel confident that I can hit lategame. It's amazing for a Protoss player to feel that I don't need to hit a 2 base timing to disrupt the Terran to survive. I never thought Speedvacs were OP because I'm comfortable defending drop play - but others aren't. I thought Widow Mines were OP in Beta because unless you make a few extra obs or cannon your mineral line they would destroy you. Now that Protoss can survive easier is no reason to nerf them. Remember it's not the offence youre complaining about it's the defence. Why do people hate going lategame...
On May 03 2013 19:56 pmp10 wrote: It is being addressed - the oracle is in for a buff. The design is what Blizzard always said - asymmetrical. Loss of terran early game option is supposedly recompensed with stronger mid-game.
Protoss doesn't exactly have much of a weaker mid-game if one is not playing greedy. I'm open to counter-arguments on this.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
No. Once P got the Core, you can not win aymore because of the nexus cannon. If gives too much time.
On May 03 2013 19:58 sUgArMaNiAc wrote: In pro-level games it should be expected that the Protoss player should be prepared for early pressure and vice versa strictly because they are pros. Im in GM and unless you're 100% confident in what you are doing you will get shut down hard. Admittedly now I use 2 sentries a stalker and a MSC but in WoL I had to dedicate more economy to defend against Terran players to the point where I was behind when defending a group of 4-6 marines. It was ridiculous. Now when I hit midgame I never feel like I'm always in an uphill battle. I feel confident that I can hit lategame. It's amazing for a Protoss player to feel that I don't need to hit a 2 base timing to disrupt the Terran to survive. I never thought Speedvacs were OP because I'm comfortable defending drop play - but others aren't. I thought Widow Mines were OP in Beta because unless you make a few extra obs or cannon your mineral line they would destroy you. Now that Protoss can survive easier is no reason to nerf them. Remember it's not the offence youre complaining about it's the defence. Why do people hate going lategame...
i havent played alot of games in hots but i tried a few games of 111 and i can still beat master protoss with a 20marine 3 tank 2 banshee 1 raven timeing, now i can also reinforce the bunker siege at his natural with widowmines wich makes it even stronger against the 1gate robo expand build, just station tanks right outside nexutary fortress range and expand behind it.
On May 03 2013 20:08 Hemling wrote: i havent played alot of games in hots but i tried a few games of 111 and i can still beat master protoss with a 20marine 3 tank 2 banshee 1 raven timeing, now i can also reinforce the bunker siege at his natural with widowmines wich makes it even stronger against the 1gate robo expand build, just station tanks right outside nexutary fortress range and expand behind it.
(im a rusty low master terran)
What use is sieging their natural if you can't hit their nex? Can that build deal with the various protoss 1-base builds that you see ~50 % of the time?
I have had similar thoughts in regards to the early game, and about how protoss can all-in in different ways with the same tech route (ie: blink or dt from twighlight, and proxy oracle or void ray bust from stargate, and immortal bust or warp prism from robo)... It can be frustrating anticipating one tactic and encountering one of the same tech origin but a near opposite requirement in regards to its negation. I think the advantages for Terran in the mid-game compensate to some degree for the vulnerability in the early stages of the game, and that the Terran race has the utility to deal with any Protoss 1 base aggression, but it does require a calculated and well executed response.
By OP "From watching Dreamhack, and then into the GSL I haven't seen a Terran player be able to execute an early attack successfully on a Protoss player, no matter the level of greed the Protoss player is abusing"
Stop whining just because Terran cant win in the first 10 mins of the game with Stim timing pushes. Zerg can make the exact same claim about Terran early game.Too many Terrans want a 1/1/1 "Puma" builds to auto win against Protoss. Those days are long gone thank god
As to DreamHack, Terran had a lot of average players representing them. Polt and GuMiho the only two worth considering as good. The others build their games on quick kills with Hellbats etc and two base timings, once those players are sussed out with their cheesy play they will fade into obscurity as they did in WoL
On May 03 2013 20:08 Hemling wrote: i havent played alot of games in hots but i tried a few games of 111 and i can still beat master protoss with a 20marine 3 tank 2 banshee 1 raven timeing, now i can also reinforce the bunker siege at his natural with widowmines wich makes it even stronger against the 1gate robo expand build, just station tanks right outside nexutary fortress range and expand behind it.
(im a rusty low master terran)
What use is sieging their natural if you can't hit their nex? Can that build deal with the various protoss 1-base builds that you see ~50 % of the time?
Good questions!
Sieging outside range while nexutary fortress is up is just temporary, its a good starting position to make bunkers and seting up the inevitable clash between forces, I usually take a trip up to the main with the banshees while waiting for nex fortress to inactivate.
If your up against a 1base protoss build you have the 111 as a very good versatile defense, detection from raven, more then enough marines against oracle and a good infrastructure if you decide to expand before the toss and take the game to the midgame,
There's no reason to abuse the timeing if the toss doesnt have an expansion to punish.
The 111 is by no means imbalanced and can be stopped like all builds, its just a good opener relevant to the topic because i dont think its "impossible" to attack the protoss before 12min mark.
I have been seeing very similar problems for a long time. I really do not understand what blizzard is thinking with these proposed oracle changes...they really seem quite poor. The whole response that they have 'oh well you just make 1 turret at each mineral line and this totally 'counters' the oracle' is poorly thought out and an entirely useless way of thinking about how units work in a game. These are the same people who believe that the same response 'counters' aka makes useless banshee harass---which in my own experience I can say is wrong because correctly microed banshees are 99% of the time guaranteed to do something; a position recently backed up by innovation v flash, where despite there being the blizzard '1turret/line' flash lost outright to the banshees (granted the turrets were not in the best position to deal with them).
I like the game right now, I just dislike photon overcharge. A very boring spell that is essentially a timer before you can attack, and takes little skill.
Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
I've been going gas first builds all this time, so I'm not at trouble in TvP (or even Pvt).
When I play Terran vs Protoss, I open gas first for a quick factory. At this point i have the option to go for a quick 4 hellions (barracks makes 1 marine, then reactor). I follow up with a 2minedrop (+4marines), simultaneously if possible. When I see not enough pylons in the protoss base from my scout, I however go for a quick mine in the mineral line. I found that SG openers autolose to 3 hellions/minedrop in their base(s).
When I play Protoss vs Terran, I find the terrans playing standard expand, allowing my to do whatever i feel like (which are DT drops into double upgrade/colossi).
All in all, I use the idea that aggression is good. For Protoss this means outright winning the game, for Terran this is killing a lot of workers. I hope to have given you an idea as to how my experience has been so far.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
You cant go in right after a nexus cannon. It lasts a full minute. He can have so much more stuff by the time that happens. It's like when you're trying to by time against a Protoss whose moving out by dropping except you are risking nothing with a nexus cannon.
Protoss is already in trouble in the midgame when medivacs are out while being incredibly greedy early game. If you force protoss to play safer the whole matchup goes to shit.
On May 03 2013 19:54 shid0x wrote: Protoss has always been a strong race
Strong on ladder yes, but it was clearly the weakest race at GSL skill levels for the overall scope of the WoL era - protoss needed help getting into the midgame against terran/zerg without always playing at a deficit. Yes, the MSC is strong, and perhaps the photon overcharge needs a bit of tweaking here or there, but its far from imbalanced.
Blizzard has stated many times that the game has asymmetrical balance. PvT is favored for Protoss in the early game, and then heading into the mid game it favors the Terran. This is how they designed the game and this is how they balance the game.
On May 03 2013 20:08 Hemling wrote: i havent played alot of games in hots but i tried a few games of 111 and i can still beat master protoss with a 20marine 3 tank 2 banshee 1 raven timeing, now i can also reinforce the bunker siege at his natural with widowmines wich makes it even stronger against the 1gate robo expand build, just station tanks right outside nexutary fortress range and expand behind it.
(im a rusty low master terran)
What use is sieging their natural if you can't hit their nex? Can that build deal with the various protoss 1-base builds that you see ~50 % of the time?
Good questions!
Sieging outside range while nexutary fortress is up is just temporary, its a good starting position to make bunkers and seting up the inevitable clash between forces, I usually take a trip up to the main with the banshees while waiting for nex fortress to inactivate.
If your up against a 1base protoss build you have the 111 as a very good versatile defense, detection from raven, more then enough marines against oracle and a good infrastructure if you decide to expand before the toss and take the game to the midgame,
There's no reason to abuse the timeing if the toss doesnt have an expansion to punish.
The 111 is by no means imbalanced and can be stopped like all builds, its just a good opener relevant to the topic because i dont think its "impossible" to attack the protoss before 12min mark.
I must point out that you'll have to wait for 2 overcharges ( ie. 2 minutes ), not just one. At the timing you attack, the MScore will have enough energy for two.
Two more minutes where Protoss is on 2 mining bases, adding more gates, producing more units, compared to the same build in WoL. That makes it much, much weaker.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
Everything you described can be scouted and there are signs that the protoss is going proxy Oracles as soon as they take double gas. If you don't see that gas invested some place, like sentries, there is a good chance the oracle is coming.
Also, can the protoss even build a stalker if they push out a 5:33 oracle?
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
Oracle is out before a mine can be out with a 15 gas. Is terran supposed to gas first fact rush to get mine out to expo and therefore be miles behind every game, or do you simply not have a clue? I'm guessing it's the second part.
The one thing I find most skewed about TvP is the lategame. I find the control needed in lategame engages significantly higher for terran. Personally I struggle to hit all the snipes, kite with the bio and split + focus colossi with vikings. Sniping and emping all the HTs I find especially hard. Often I will miss one or 2 templar and just lose the game from epic storms. Conversely I find lategame protoss control much easier, because storm wins. As terran, it feels like playing on a knifes edge. I don't think its imbalanced necessarily, just much harder at my level of macro and control. Early game as terran I've never lost a game without being able to highlight my specific mistake, so while I'd prefer both races had 1 base all ins, ultimately mothership core (photon overcharge) is pretty important for pvp especially.
On May 03 2013 20:24 Topdoller wrote: Stop whining just because Terran cant win in the first 10 mins of the game with Stim timing pushes. Zerg can make the exact same claim about Terran early game.Too many Terrans want a 1/1/1 "Puma" builds to auto win against Protoss. Those days are long gone thank god
Early roach attacks and baneling busts are very common now that terran are frequently opening double reaper/cc first into triple cc +hellions. They often do win the game that fast.
On May 03 2013 21:23 Teoita wrote: Protoss is already in trouble in the midgame when medivacs are out while being incredibly greedy early game. If you force protoss to play safer the whole matchup goes to shit.
Most maps have really close three bases, if you position your army near the third and have your mothership core defend both your main+natural it seems even easier to defend medivacs with warpins than in WoL tbh.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
And you lose like shit vs 2+ reaper in your base while you go for late stalker. As others said, whine post to me.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
Oracle is out before a mine can be out with a 15 gas. Is terran supposed to gas first fact rush to get mine out to expo and therefore be miles behind every game, or do you simply not have a clue? I'm guessing it's the second part.
Nice post. Who said you have to go 15 gas? Anyway, 15 gas can have a mine out at 5:29. Fact.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
Oracle is out before a mine can be out with a 15 gas. Is terran supposed to gas first fact rush to get mine out to expo and therefore be miles behind every game, or do you simply not have a clue? I'm guessing it's the second part.
Nice post. Who said you have to go 15 gas? Anyway, 15 gas can have a mine out at 5:29. Fact.
I'm a high master Terran and I have exactly the same problem as Filter in TvP.
I personally only do 2 base mech all-ins because I see absolutely no point in "trying to play standard" vs. Protoss. They have so many all-ins you have to account for, but could theoretically also be double expanding and still be safe. If I overprepare for an all-in, I'm behind in macro (double forge before robo anyone?), if I macro there is a chance that he hits me with an all-in, proxy oracles, dts, immortal busts, etc..
The problem is that opening 2 gas is standard for Protoss thanks to the mothership core, so getting a reaper in and scouting to gas tells you exactly bupkis about what the Protoss is doing, he could do a regular expand and just mine 2 gas for a fast MSC, it could be a DT drop, proxy oracle... anything.
Scanning the Protoss main doesn't help either, because most tech buildings are either hidden on the map or in some corner of their base. Scanning in the early game is a loss/loss for Terran anyway. If I scan I have essentially lost 240 minerals if the Protoss is macroing, which slows down my build, if he is all-ining Im lacking 240 minerals to defend his 6-7 min all-in (which is equal to 5 less marines).
Another problem is that you can be safe vs. basically any all-in, blink stalkers, DT or oracle, but if the protoss is doing that one build you can't possibly prepare for because you have prepared for everything else... you die.
Furthermore and this, I think, is the biggest problem in TvP. I have had Protoss players do all-ins vs. me and their all-ins would fail hard, but I cannot ever counter attack because if I do I just run into the nexus cannon which is pretty much a brick wall. If I defend a zerg all-in there are certain timings I have to punish them while they are trying to recover, same is true against terran. Against Protoss on the other hand it feels like there is absolutely no point in counter attacking because it's simply not going to work.
I also feel that the amount of binary-protoss all-ins has given lots of protoss players a freeride in to masters league and given them higher MMR than they should have. I sometimes play Protoss players with 100 apm, who just do one of the 20 protoss all-ins, while I try to defend as well as I can with twice their APM. If I hold off their all-in they lose, but the "easy to execute - hard to defend" protoss all-ins have given so many protoss players a freeride it's actually laughable. Where is the terran equivalent to that?
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
The quickest oracle is out at 5.09 ^^ Theres no way you can have a mine out unless you go gas first, and even then its still possible to avoid it.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote: re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
If you have any links of terran 1 base all ins succeeding at a tournament level, without protoss making huge errors, I'd love to see them. Both to work out how to stop them and how to execute them. Standard protoss play should shut all that down very very hard. Photon overcharge shuts down drops early (focusing the medivac). Standard toss play ends up with double nexus 3 gate robo (for obs for mine drops/cloak banshees). Stalker kiting/gateway units/mothership core has shut down every terran mass marine 1 base Ive ever seen. Old style 2 rax (reactor tech lab) is hard countered by protoss air and therefore a total coin flip. Obviously scouting is important but that really isnt very hard with probe into stalkers/mothership core and later air/hallu/obs.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense.
How do you get inside a protoss base once he has a stalker and MSC out?
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Some of you guys need to be more respectful. OP has contributed far more to SC2 than you have.
That said, I agree with Filter here. On ladder it's really hard to tell what's coming at me in the early game, and if I react incorrectly that can lead to huge advantages for Protoss. I'm not sure if it's imbalanced because I don't play at GM level, but I do think Protoss have many more effective options for doing devastating damage early on with little reprecussion, whereas Terran's options are much less effective and far less capable of transitioning into the mid game.
I think some of the Protoss players here are exaggerating the "scary 11 minute timing where Stim, +1 and Medivacs are done" here. Protoss can deal with the Terran push at this time providing they aren't playing overly greedy.
On May 03 2013 21:28 gamerdude12345 wrote: Blizzard has stated many times that the game has asymmetrical balance. PvT is favored for Protoss in the early game, and then heading into the mid game it favors the Terran. This is how they designed the game and this is how they balance the game.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense.
How do you get inside a protoss base once he has a stalker and MSC out?
With a reaper. The build they are talking about involves not getting warpgate or a stalker and dumping all gas into an early proxy stargate.
this is amazing - this is my exact(!) problem right now. that protoss has 40 different cheeses and even the different cheeses have variety --
i especially struggle with figuireing out what follows up a proxy stargate, - they can expand, they can 4gate and bust down your front with oracles. then 4 gate warpprism - forcefielding your ramp with sentries and oracle support- there is just too many options. like yesterday i lost against a protoss just walking up forcefielding my ramp- killing all my scvs at the natural - because i was expecting either blink stalkers or sentry drop - but then he was doing an immortal all-in off 2 bases. and wasn't even an all-in , was a expand pressure build. instant lose. im like --- trust me, none of my expand pressures out right kills a protoss, thats retarded to even think it would. but the truth is that with a 12 rax/12 gas --> reaper --> stim --> 7-8 marine(snipeing sentrys / msc) --> follows it up with mass marines + medivacs(with expand allthough) - can't even beat triple nexus. it just feels like the amount i have to scout is insane, on a little map like neo planet s - you have to scout(spawning top right) downwards / the huge middle area / top left, and the problem with this - is that some tosses just make the stargate in their base. so they can make a expand + pheonix follow up or whatever.. it just seems retardedly easy to mind-game a terran. like if you actually know how to prevent scv scouting (herpderp 1 stalker in front of baseLOL) and knows how to hide tech- in a corner or whatever.
and for me the worst part is actually that the worst solution for me - is that the protoss just outright chooses to expand, since that means i have to play vs templers + collosus at some point.
when i heard about boosters for medivacs, i didn't know that we we're going to trade it for 4 new different all-ins / pressure builds + makeing it impossible to ever do a counter pressure push. due to msc.
On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote: re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
If you have any links of terran 1 base all ins succeeding at a tournament level, without protoss making huge errors, I'd love to see them. Both to work out how to stop them and how to execute them. Standard protoss play should shut all that down very very hard. Photon overcharge shuts down drops early (focusing the medivac). Standard toss play ends up with double nexus 3 gate robo (for obs for mine drops/cloak banshees). Stalker kiting/gateway units/mothership core has shut down every terran mass marine 1 base Ive ever seen. Old style 2 rax (reactor tech lab) is hard countered by protoss air and therefore a total coin flip. Obviously scouting is important but that really isnt very hard with probe into stalkers/mothership core and later air/hallu/obs.
I never said it had to be 1 base: what photon overcharge?
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I am at work, I will watch it when I get home. But if these are builds that delay warpgate and the first stalker, it is scoutable.
I'm telling you, scouting it isn't the problem. You come in, see 2 gas and WG not researching and you know what it is. You then realize that "Holy shit, I should've started an ebay 20 seconds ago to have a turret for it, and I'm gonna have 2-4 marines when it enters my main, what do I do?".
I don't even know, bunker in main mineral line? It won't cover shit, will fuck up mining and protoss can in all honesty probably just sit and laugh while expanding and be ahdead.
On May 03 2013 21:34 Elwar wrote: Most maps have really close three bases, if you position your army near the third and have your mothership core defend both your main+natural it seems even easier to defend medivacs with warpins than in WoL tbh.
I don't think many Terrans understand just how little damage the nexus cannon really does. It's so effective against early game attacks because Terran bio has very low HP and relies on kiting to avoid damage, and of course you can't kite against overcharge. However, it cannot out-dps the healing from a single Medivac. 3 Medivacs of bio easily crushes a 6-unit warpin and then will proceed to stim down the nexus without losing much of anything. 2 Medivacs can even do it if you manage to drop behind the minerals or someplace where geometry prevents Zealots from attacking.
For overcharge to be useful against drops, you have to scout the drop well in advance. If the cannon is activated before Terran starts dropping, they have to retreat because Medivacs can't heal while unloading. Activating the cannon as units are unloading behind your minerals will not save you from the drop. If you target the bio, it'll never die due to healing. Your best option is to target the medivacs so Terran can't escape but if you don't bring up units ASAP the nexus gets stimmed down.
On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote: [quote] And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
So the protoss just prays that the terran doesn't open with a reaper, because that stalker is going to be really late? And how do you not scout a protoss going double gas that doesn't have a single gas based unit and warpate isn't researching?
You can know that he's doing it, but that won't change the fact that there's 0 ways to have more than 4 marines or 0 mines when it's in your main if you don't fucking 11/11 expo.
I'm sorry, I need to see these replays of these amazing, un-scoutable protoss builds that can only be blind countered. It sounds like a problem that can be solved by building a single reaper and seeing that the protoss is up to some nonsense.
How do you get inside a protoss base once he has a stalker and MSC out?
With a reaper. The build they are talking about involves not getting warpgate or a stalker and dumping all gas into an early proxy stargate.
Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
On May 03 2013 21:34 Elwar wrote: Most maps have really close three bases, if you position your army near the third and have your mothership core defend both your main+natural it seems even easier to defend medivacs with warpins than in WoL tbh.
I don't think many Terrans understand just how little damage the nexus cannon really does. It's so effective against early game attacks because Terran bio has very low HP and relies on kiting to avoid damage, and of course you can't kite against overcharge. However, it cannot out-dps the healing from a single Medivac
The role of the canon is to make protoss safer in the early game. It does exactly that. It delays any early game aggression by full minute. A minute is quite big in Sc2, especially among pros.
Proxy stargate is a very strong build. But it can be denied SO easly. Just send out your lazy marines and scout it out. The proxy locations are so damn obvious. This game is just no longer 1rack expanding every game till the end of time. You have to adapt. Just as what protoss did vs zerg taking a third early...
In the end, this is so fun to see Terran complaining after a few year of free FE that can now be punished like shit. it's time to scout again, and to play less greedy.
On May 03 2013 21:50 Xequecal wrote:I don't think many Terrans understand just how little damage the nexus cannon really does. It's so effective against early game attacks because Terran bio has very low HP and relies on kiting to avoid damage, and of course you can't kite against overcharge. However, it cannot out-dps the healing from a single Medivac. 3 Medivacs of bio easily crushes a 6-unit warpin and then will proceed to stim down the nexus without losing much of anything. 2 Medivacs can even do it if you manage to drop behind the minerals or someplace where geometry prevents Zealots from attacking.
For overcharge to be useful against drops, you have to scout the drop well in advance. If the cannon is activated before Terran starts dropping, they have to retreat because Medivacs can't heal while unloading. Activating the cannon as units are unloading behind your minerals will not save you from the drop. If you target the bio, it'll never die due to healing. Your best option is to target the medivacs so Terran can't escape but if you don't bring up units ASAP the nexus gets stimmed down.
3 medivacs? For the stage of the game where drops are most viable (mid game) thats generally a doom drop. If you let 3 full medivacs drop you and take down your nexus you played awfully be it in WoL or HoTS. The medivac boost barely plays into the success of such an attack.
The strength of terran drops has always been picking at the economy and outlying buildings/tech. Nexus cannon makes attacks on mineral lines dramatically less effective, requiring an order of magnitude more attention from the terran and is a bigger commital (because as you said, the medivacs get targeted). Basically the risk/reward has gone way askew and the ease of defence has gone way up. Seems pretty evident to me. Watch most pro PvT, the drop play has drastically decreased from WoL - its success even less -, the opposite of the other two matchups and against Blizzards stated intentions.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
Hmm I thought the current mind set of Terran in all matchups is -> scout all and defend it into an eco advantage, for a superior midgame with the potential to finish the game or get ahead into the lategame, which is needed as our late game transition takes years compared to a toss. That excludes early game aggression since you put alot into scouting and it is actually the right way against a protoss, as they have the map control once a Stalker is out.
People have a point when they say it is impossible to prevent a reaper scout, but they adapted to it and know how to hide things now, which before they didn't have to do so the scouting was way easier.
Protoss was really hard pressed by the Speedmedivacs, so they had to find a solution for that first and afterwards they could start to think about the rest, right now we are at this point were Terran needs to think of something new and not open the same way every game on every map. I started to like my Techlab again.
Can't say that I agree with this! Theory crafting, you can always make something look lopsided. When I play TvP, I can always find lots of holes (low GM level I suppose), and when I play PvT, it certainly doesn't feel like early game T attacks are impotent (especially 'clever attacks' and multi-pronged ones). Frontal stim attacks aren't as good anymore as in Wings and they shouldn't be. There's also two that can play the greed game. FlasH lost on Star Station against PartinG, but that's because literally everything went perfectly for PartinG.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate.
Stop be dramatic. The protoss sunk 300 gas into that oracle and a ton of chrono. Their warpgate is delayed along with their second and 3rd date. They can't march in with a mob of stalkers.
On May 03 2013 19:54 shid0x wrote: Protoss has always been a strong race
Strong on ladder yes, but it was clearly the weakest race at GSL skill levels for the overall scope of the WoL era - protoss needed help getting into the midgame against terran/zerg without always playing at a deficit. Yes, the MSC is strong, and perhaps the photon overcharge needs a bit of tweaking here or there, but its far from imbalanced.
I agree with that, but what bothers me a bit, though, is the sheer upgrade advantage protoss gained through impementing the MSC. It is way easier now for Protoss to survive the early game without getting behind economically, so they benefit even more from chronoboosting their (prev. buffed due to high costs of Protoss units/tech) upgrades.
I'm just a dia Terran and I'm only mostly playing mech except for TvP, so I have inferior bio micro (especially mid-/lategame engagements, controlling ghosts, vikings, splitting your army etc.) and therefore think it's my weakest MU, but it still feels like an uphill-battle every game trying to be as greedy as you can without neglecting the (many) possible aggressive openings two-gas Protoss players have up their sleeves, just because early aggression is either not that viable anymore (simply 3-raxing or even 4-6 raxing can be deflected with relative ease using Planetary Nexus and proper FF/Time-Warps) or just too risky (if you don't do huge amounts of damage or disrupt your opponent enough macro-wise you don't have much left at home to defend).
Further contributing to that is the (not THAT) current trend of creating bigger maps that are more macro-friendly instead of providing a variety of different-sized maps for a more diverse use of strategies (that one new ladder-map is a nice approach, but it could be done way better), but that's another story, I guess.
My overall impression is HotS has a pretty decent balance right now, which could be tweaked here and there (e.g. nerfing Hellbat damage slightly), but such things as Oracle speed buff are not really needed IMO. Let's just wait and see how things will turn out to be.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
My personal experience (top 25 diamond Terran) is that Colossus play is relatively easy to deal with: I've gone through my replays and I have something like a 65% winrate where Protoss players commit to colossus attacks, whether a mid-game timing or (for whatever reason) lategame. The real kicker is the storm/archon/zealot style that Parting showed against Flash, which just feels like it requires so much more micro from a Terran to play against (splits, storm dodges, ghost micro, constant dropping to keep shaving parts off the deathball) than it does to execute. Storm is so different in SC2 because of the way units clump up together that it's massively more effective. With regards to timings: Protoss players have so much 2 gas 1 base options that it's ceased to be funny, and if the proposed oracle changes go through I can see most Terrans at anything other than the absolute highest level having to play incredibly passive in the early game in order to get the early marines requisite to hold off even faster proxy oracle timings. I have no issue with Protoss having a slightly better lategame, but the early game tools this expansion has given them takes away a lot of the Terran opportunity to delay/shave parts off of/cripple that 'deathball'.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard.
That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs.
The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt.
Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
I largely agree with what you are saying, but I think there are definitely options that just have yet to be explored in the metagame. I think you should also take a look at the MLG exhibition series final between CJ hero and MKP. MKP does some interesting early timings that are pretty all in, and admittedly they could have been stopped by better scouting/defense from the protoss player, but the point being MKP played well and did make it work.
I don't think the parting flash series is particularly a good argument for your point either..Game one parting had nearly perfect play in every stage of the game and there was a razor thin line between him holding and crumbling there as Flash's army supply advantage grew. In game 2 I've seen MC do very similar builds and Flash pretty much just failed to recognize or scout the main of parting on 2 base to recognize that scary all in. If he had, he would have had a better chance to win.
I do agree that anything in TvP relies on the protoss making mistakes or being caught very off guard to lose a game. One change I would like to see that wouldn't necessarily fix the super early game (of which im not convinced there arent aggressive all ins that can work against greedy toss, or that protoss all ins are a problem), but would maybe fix some of the ultra greedy openers..is to increase the time of the Storm and Thermal Lance upgrades. Because they still will have a hard time for a short window after their tech is unlocked, they would have to invest a little more into army as well. This is where the "Parting Build" in general just bothers me a bit as a Terran player. I think we can all agree once storm is out you basically have to completely overwhelm your opponent and hope for the best or back the hell off a protoss. You basically cannot attack them anymore unless you want to risk dying a very quick death. Thats all fine and good, protoss needs options to defend and build an army/take a 3rd. The problem being...you really cannot hit a timing as a terran before storm. The second that templar archive is out..you just cannot risk an attack timing. The upgrade is SO fast..and if you get in there and storm finishes 5 seconds into the fight.. you are going to lose everything. I think making it so that a top player can actually hit a 30 second timing window with some certainty would maybe encourage some more smart crisp timings in the pro level.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
I need to see a replay where the protoss has a 5:33 oracle and what they cut to get that.
5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
And you lose like shit vs 2+ reaper in your base while you go for late stalker. As others said, whine post to me.
What the hell are you people talking ? If Terran goes 2+ reapers, he will lose to proxy oracles instantly. Reapers won't do enough damage before stalker comes out. And Terran will have like 2-3 marines out if he did two reapers FE, while it takes 6 of them to kill a single oracle. Oracle will kill so many workers, that it will be impossible to play from that point. And if you go something silly like 2 reapers FE into really fast ebay and three fast turrets (1 in each mineral line and 1 to defend your tech lab with stim) you will get rolled by 3 gate stargate all-in. And people saying, go for mines. Well yeah, that is good against stargate play, but suck against every FE build protoss can do. And most of the time, you commit for going 1/1/1 before you know that protoss is going to do proxy stargate play (unless it's 2 player map and you do faster scout with SCV and notice that protoss took really fast two gas and lacks a pylon in his main but yet they can go proxy stargate after first stalker.). And 1/1/1 FE (may it be mine drops with frontal marine push, or hellion drop with frontal marine push) it just sucks against any FE builds and does like zero damage against good toss. You will play from behind all game long. I myself most of the time do 1/1/1 FE just because to be safe from various cheeses protoss can throw. But if protoss does a FE build, you have to outplay him during mid game in order to have a chance at winning that match. Also, about reaper FE. While it can be good for scouting proxy stargate/or getting information that it's going to be proxy stargate, reaper openings are quite weak against blink all-ins (which is actually close-to impossible to hold on some maps with FE builds) and 3 gate robo immortal busts. And you can see that in some games as well. People go for fast proxy robo, making you think that it's stargate (because of current meta), while they pump fast immortals and push when they have two or three of them. And holding this cheese, you need like 4 bunkers, which you obviously won't build unless you know that immortal bust is coming. And then there is a possibility of getting DT dropped. Well at least for me, TvP early game feels really scary. So many ways to get crippled, and very few ways to stop early protoss greed.
(Master League, mid) Some time ago I always encountered DTs in the Early game, it seemed very hard to punish a protoss for it(if not impossible). The dmg a Warp Prism DT does even if scouted was rly annoying, you feel like you cant attack properly, only if you make a painful switch to a raven (or save lots of Scans).
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
On May 03 2013 21:25 axgxFighter wrote: [quote] And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting...
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment".
Early game TvP has been broken in HOTS for a while now. Protoss has ways to outright autowin the game vs Terran with literally1 unit sometimes (oracle/dts/blink stalker) where Terran has no way to outright kill a Protoss...EVER.
Basically, this thread is spot on, but blizzard probably won't do shit about it because of the fervor around "T OP."
The early game is indeed broken though, 1 base all-ins are unscoutable, it's just a guessing game, The game you think he proxied a stargate where you didn't find it with your reaper, he could have proxed a robo instead, or he could have just put it in base.
Or a twilight council, or gateways, or he's mind fucking you and just playing standard macro with no risk ever.
I think 1 thing Blizzard could do to help alleviate the issue of Protoss being able to autowin games whereas Terran cannot even attack...remove ebay requirement from missile turrets, this way if someone is proxying oracles, or going DTS, you can throw up turrets in appropriate time.
Right now, the match-up is basically bullshit because of opening build orders / Protoss can abuse freewins and simply never will die because apparently blizzard thought it would be a good idea to allow Protoss to have a range 13 Planetary Fortress at both of their bases at the 7 minute mark. The rest of the match-up past that point is balanced though.
I'm glad someone made this thread to discuss this, because there truly is a problem with the match-up.
yes but i feel like terran greedy is with many risky protoss greedy even vs aggresive play nearly imposiible to break many times cause canon in mine lines + mc core and few stalkers that hold nearly everything terran can send out even one base attack...So i find only way to counter this is risk that this protoss play common and go ultra greedy that cost me game vs protoss all ins sometimes. But now is all about reaper scout.
"Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment"."
And would it not make sense for pro players to be biased? In fact, I would go as far as to say that pro players are on average more bias than amateur players because there is more at stake for them. I can neither deny nor confirm that Grubby is biased. Could it conceivably be the case the he is bias? Yes, absolutely. Does he have more reason than any of us to be bias? Yes. Does this mean he is biased? No.
That's what I said and it is absolutely true. I respect Grubby, so please don't make me look like the bad guy here, I even think his qualities would make him a better terran player than protoss player (sick multitasking and micro), but that's just my opinion. I'm definitely not hating on Grubby, not at all, he is awesome.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting...
That's SC2, sometimes you contain you opponent to gain an economic advantage and get a more robust, strong army later in the game. There is more than one way to kill your opponent.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
http://drop.sc/330210 check it out, i don't play protoss but my oracle is there before you have your mine out and i can still push at 6 minutes with some units, so obviously i would wait for another round. Just an example of how basically you have to open reaper or you die. aka your build is a bo loss.
Your oracle was out at the same time as my mine, you had no expo and those units would be denied by one bunker. I don't see imbalance there sorry. I'll grant you that I would of course lose a handful of scvs, but not enough to put me behind.
On May 03 2013 21:29 drop271 wrote: re your edit: so what, we keep scouting with the reaper. Your theory that Toss can do whatever they like without scouting is laughable. Cloak Banshee... one base fast drop play... MKP style marine all in.... all kinda GG unscouted
If you have any links of terran 1 base all ins succeeding at a tournament level, without protoss making huge errors, I'd love to see them. Both to work out how to stop them and how to execute them. Standard protoss play should shut all that down very very hard. Photon overcharge shuts down drops early (focusing the medivac). Standard toss play ends up with double nexus 3 gate robo (for obs for mine drops/cloak banshees). Stalker kiting/gateway units/mothership core has shut down every terran mass marine 1 base Ive ever seen. Old style 2 rax (reactor tech lab) is hard countered by protoss air and therefore a total coin flip. Obviously scouting is important but that really isnt very hard with probe into stalkers/mothership core and later air/hallu/obs.
I love that you linked it, because I actually stole all of MKPs builds from that tourney and that is the exact cheese i use. I don't feel its as good as that vod suggests though. Hero was playing pretty damn greedy with only 2 sentries and a mothership core by 7.40 as his entire army. He skipped the stalker, didn't control the watchtowers, teched into warpprism robo bay double upgrades with 6 army supply. As said in the cast if the build is scouted it just doesn't work. Even with forcefields hero still might have held it (though I doubt it) and then mkp probably wouldve died to the colossi counter. I'm a bit sad he wiffed his forcefields so badly because I would like to know how mkp wouldve transitioned out of it doing less damage (and held a possible colossi counter). That said it certainly can work and is fun to mix in occasionally.
Most of the time I play his cc first into triple rax stim drops build though. Macro macro macro ftw.
On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard.
That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs.
The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt.
Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is:
4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins"
Lots of ways for Protoss to build order win the game. Now Terran's options:
1/1/1 widow mine drop -> protoss NEVER loses to this anymore, and mines easily mitigated + using planetary nexus 1 rax FE -> abusable by any 1 base all-in, Zero chance to outright win the game
There is a huge discrepency in opening build orders where Terran cannot ever outright win a game, whereas Protoss not only has about 10+ more different options, but all of those options can outright win the game because Terran is literally guessing what the Protoss is doing.
The other issue is proxy oracles/new cheap DT shrine/+new cheap blink stalker all-in only requiring MSC. These things require completely different responses, and in the case of the first two, you need an e-bay extremely early on in the game, which is 125 minerals + 200 minerals for missile turrets, + the 100 mineral defensive bunker = 425 minerals = Protoss can autowin the game at ZERO risk because they can throw up a nexus that's 400 minerals and then rely on Planetary nexus to hold off anything Terran can do.
A lot of times you can play completely "safe" and still lose to all-ins in TvP. There's a problem with the match-up when you're not even being greedy and can still die to 1 base protoss because of your opponent simply executing an opening build order.
The risk-reward is not right in opening builds right now, where Protoss has very few to no risks, and Terran can outright lose games from easily executed builds, the most common right now being proxy oracles where even Progamers have lost AFTER SCOUTING THE PROXY STARGATE.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting...
That's SC2, sometimes you contain you opponent to gain an economic advantage and get a more robust, strong army later in the game. There is more than one way to kill your opponent.
TvZ got awful due to this precise reason in WoL. no rush and max greed on both sides was the better way to win.
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment".
DUMBED DOWN VERSION:
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
Good lord this is painful. I'll use your language and "dumb it down" a touch further: SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond Plansix: what about grubby, he's not diamond SlicSC: I'm not saying he's biased. And I don't like arguments from authority. Drop: if you're not suggesting he's biased then why did you bring it up, and you just made an argument from authority yourself
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment".
DUMBED DOWN VERSION:
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
I don't see why people take issue with this? If I played SC2 for a living I wouldn't want to ever see my race nerfed, because that could essentially equal less money. It doesn't mean that everyone who plays SC2 for a living is necessarily bias, but they have reason to be, moreso than amateur players. And I never said Grubby had to rely on luck, so don't put words in my mouth please. Grubby is insanely talented at RTS games and he will at some point be good enough to win a major tournament, regardless of the strength of his race. He was very close to winning a major tournament in WoL so I don't see how that opinion is controversial.
On May 03 2013 21:10 drop271 wrote: Can't really agree with the OP. I'm diamond Terran, right in that spot where we think we are playing safe but are really too shit to accurately predict builds and can get easily frustrated. My TvP is hardly stellar, but I don't think we have scope to complain yet.
I agree that Toss openers are strong, can do aggression without putting them behind, and probably have more ways to win before 10 minutes than Terran do at the moment. But - its worth recalling that Terran has the easiest early game scouting options in the game in the reaper and the scan, and we have the best scouting denial in the early game with the depot-rax-depot wall. Plus we have relatively cost effective static defence in the form of bunkers. Given these resources, balanced game design would seem to dictate that unscouted openers need to be extremely hard to hold. By the same token, using the parlance of the OP, Terran has very few 'loss conditions' in the mid game while protoss, thanks to drops largely, has very many.
Seems pretty fair at a theorycraft level really, and thats all the OP is - one snapshot of the metagame at dreamhack hardly makes a trend
And what exactly do you do vs a proxy oracle that shows up in your base at 5:33? On top of that blizzard wants to buff the oracle.... Even if you scout a proxy oracle, how are you going to kill the proxy or get a turret up in time? Even if i started a starport at 5 minutes i would not have a turret in time. It requires 6 marines to kill an oracle..If he say follows that up with a gateway timing I'm kind of dead. If I make a build that allows me to stop that, I will lose if he macros. There is not a single all-in I can think of that works vs protoss anymore, but yet I can think of 10 protoss can do to terran.
Oracles need a build time nerf or something. 5:33 is too early. Protosses are allowed to be too greedy.
1 mine kills an oracle. Gasless builds no longer work in the current metagame - deal with it, it's not evidence of imbalance.
Plus it your post hardly challenges the point of my post is that we can scout really well so unscouted (which includes proxy) builds need to be strong
Give me a replay of you having a widow mine by 5:33
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
http://drop.sc/330210 check it out, i don't play protoss but my oracle is there before you have your mine out and i can still push at 6 minutes with some units, so obviously i would wait for another round. Just an example of how basically you have to open reaper or you die. aka your build is a bo loss.
Your oracle was out at the same time as my mine, you had no expo and those units would be denied by one bunker. I don't see imbalance there sorry. I'll grant you that I would of course lose a handful of scvs, but not enough to put me behind.
The oracle was in that base 2 seconds before your wm popped out. You would have to chase the oracle around with the mines to kill it and it could still work around the wm. You would no doubt pull marines and I would kill them and that would make the follow up push stronger.
How much longer would that follow up push take? You only have one gateway without warpgate. You have dropped 300 gas into an orcale that did minimal damage and your still on 1 base. Even if you deny the expansion for a while, the terran can just button down and ride it out until he can take his expansion.
On May 03 2013 22:31 Sated wrote: I'm guessing OP didn't watch the WCS EU Premier Qualifiers, where Bunny managed to knock out several notable Protoss players using Hellbat drops...
EDIT:
As for the people complaining about 1 base Protoss all-ins, it sounds like many Terran players have forgotten that a 1 base Terran > 1 base Protoss. You don't need to scout which Protoss 1 base all-in is coming your way, all you need to know is that the Protoss hasn't expanded. Simply stop being greedy, lift your natural and defend your main ramp using Bunkers, because if the Protoss can't kill you before Medivacs and Stim are out then they're probably going to die to your counter attack. Why? Because they won't have splash damage ready to deal with your forces.
Terran players are just so used to dealing with everything using a single build that they can't adapt. That's why this whining exists. It's funny, because all they really need to do it make the same type of small adjustments and responses that Protoss had to do in WoL (source: PvT Scouting).
Wrong. That was wings of liberty. Protoss no longer ever dies to 1 base Terran because they have a planetary fortress available 6-7 minutes into the game on either nexus.
No one is complaining about Protoss all-ins. There are legitimate concerns that right now the match-up is a slot machine where Protoss can outright win the game with 2 units, and Terran has no equivalent where Terran can simply autowin the game.
Terran 100% has to play into a macro game past the 10 minute mark, whereas Protoss can play a greedy macro game or just choose a myriad of 1 base plays that are not easily scoutable, and can autowin the game.
Congratulations, your wm popped out as the oracle got into your base, he sees your wm, avoids it and kills a shit ton of shit because you only have 1 marine. You skipped your reactor and delayed your cc btw. Oh, and he can also come in with a stalker after his oracle shows up and busts your front with a 3 gate. Oh, and oracles can detect so if he makes more you're screwed. But atleast you slightly countered this one build. Good luck holding the other all-ins building like that.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment".
DUMBED DOWN VERSION:
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
Good lord this is painful. I'll use your language and "dumb it down" a touch further: SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond Plansix: what about grubby, he's not diamond SlicSC: I'm not saying he's biased. And I don't like arguments from authority. Drop: if you're not suggesting he's biased then how is the suggestion relevant, and you just made an argument from authority yourself
"SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond"
That's not at all what I said. I said people like you are the reason nobody listen to Diamond players, because your are wrong. It's not the other way around. You are wrong, that's why nobody listen to you, and subsequently you are giving diamond league players a bad reputation because your arguments are terrible.
On May 03 2013 22:16 shadymmj wrote: The problem is the nexus turret. It is like a mini pfort that does much less damage, but with 2000 hp and can appear at any base in trouble. Combined with FFs and timewarp this can delay an attack for a very long time. The MSC is a huge advantage especially against bio, and terran has no options other than bio.
You could just keep the protoss on 2 bases and expand to your third, keeping them home with the threat of aggression and drops. Then use your early third to get a larger army and advantage in the game?
so nothing happening for the first 10 mins of the game, except some posturing outside his base? sounds interesting...
That's SC2, sometimes you contain you opponent to gain an economic advantage and get a more robust, strong army later in the game. There is more than one way to kill your opponent.
TvZ got awful due to this precise reason in WoL. no rush and max greed on both sides was the better way to win.
Holding off speed vac drops and attempting to push out and take a third base is anything but boring as a protoss. I would call it stressful and kind of exciting.
Mate, you're seriously theorycrafting up a gigantic storm in an attempt to justify yourself. One mine means you can deny said oracle with minimal damage, you have a quicker expo and you're a long way ahead. You can easily have bunkers too if you scout that he isn't proxying. Yip, I delayed things - kinda what you do when you scout cheese...
People like you are the reason nobody ever listens to diamond league players. And well, also because you generally shouldn't listen to diamond league players as a general rule anyway.
How about Grubby?(see post above) He doesn't seem to think its a big issue and still sees places where terran can be aggressive. Or does he not count because he plays protoss?
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he has more reason than any of us to be bias when it comes down to balance. He is a professional player after all and the strength of his race also contributed to his own success. That's not to say that Grubby relies on imbalances, I actually expect Grubby to win a major tournament at some point (regardless of the strength of his race) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
What on earth does your post mean? 'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'? The strength of his race contributed to his success but he would be stronger with Terran? You don't like arguments from authority but you dismissed mine off hand last page because its from a diamond?
Do you not understand the difference between conjunctive sentences and indicative sentences? Genuine question.
There is a difference between "He is" and "He would". I'll let you figure that one out on your own though.
"'I'm not saying he is bias but he has reason to be bias'"
What troubles you with this?
"I'm not saying he killed her, but he had reason to."
That's perfectly logical and qualitatively no different.
Do you not see how transparent your attempt at implying he is biased is? Classic example: "Some people would call SlixSC a hypocrite but I couldn't possibly comment".
DUMBED DOWN VERSION:
I like Grubby and I'm not saying he's bias. But he could be and if he was it would be good for him because he wins money, so it is in his best interest to deny the truth. He plays sc for a living so his race being overpowered equals money and winning . But he may not need the game to be imba, Grubby was bound to win sooner or later even by luck. (end editing) and think he would have been way more succesful had he picked Terran instead of Protoss, but that's another story for another day. (and obviously just my opinion, but at the same time I don't like arguments from authority either)
Good lord this is painful. I'll use your language and "dumb it down" a touch further: SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond Plansix: what about grubby, he's not diamond SlicSC: I'm not saying he's biased. And I don't like arguments from authority. Drop: if you're not suggesting he's biased then how is the suggestion relevant, and you just made an argument from authority yourself
"SlicSC: you're wrong because you're in diamond"
That's not at all what I said. I said people like you are the reason nobody listen to Diamond players, because your are wrong. It's not the other way around. You are wrong, that's why nobody listen to you, and subsequently you are giving diamond league players a bad reputation because your arguments are terrible.
You are twisting my words here 180°.
He is pointing out that by your arguments, your own insights into balance are also invalid because you are either bias or not skilled enough.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
EDIT: Got the numbers wrong. There is a 60 second duration.
You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse. Also, if you cast timewarp, you don't get to use nexus cannon unless your magic and have unlimited early energy.
Seriously, he is right. Protoss players could make the exact same arguments about proxy terran builds, roach rushes and every other hard to scout all in that they lose too.
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse.
Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead?
On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard.
That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs.
The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt.
Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is:
4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins"
Lots of ways for Protoss to build order win the game. Now Terran's options:
1/1/1 widow mine drop -> protoss NEVER loses to this anymore, and mines easily mitigated + using planetary nexus 1 rax FE -> abusable by any 1 base all-in, Zero chance to outright win the game
There is a huge discrepency in opening build orders where Terran cannot ever outright win a game, whereas Protoss not only has about 10+ more different options, but all of those options can outright win the game because Terran is literally guessing what the Protoss is doing.
The other issue is proxy oracles/new cheap DT shrine/+new cheap blink stalker all-in only requiring MSC. These things require completely different responses, and in the case of the first two, you need an e-bay extremely early on in the game, which is 125 minerals + 200 minerals for missile turrets, + the 100 mineral defensive bunker = 425 minerals = Protoss can autowin the game at ZERO risk because they can throw up a nexus that's 400 minerals and then rely on Planetary nexus to hold off anything Terran can do.
A lot of times you can play completely "safe" and still lose to all-ins in TvP. There's a problem with the match-up when you're not even being greedy and can still die to 1 base protoss because of your opponent simply executing an opening build order.
The risk-reward is not right in opening builds right now, where Protoss has very few to no risks, and Terran can outright lose games from easily executed builds, the most common right now being proxy oracles where even Progamers have lost AFTER SCOUTING THE PROXY STARGATE.
I feel I can usually hold everything except the immortal all ins (especially proxy). My perception is although immortal all in kills me, if I adjusted my build I would crush it and end up very ahead (but die to oracles probably). The protoss chooses their build late enough that they can't know exactly how I'm playing and are effectively cheese coin flipping. They might kill me, or might get crushed and end up reasonably behind (and probably lose). I feel they don't have the scouting info to know which will happen before investing in the specific cheese.
Although the cheese can flat out win, it can also lose, so its just a coin flip and hopefully decent protosses won't do it. I'd be interested to know if you see it similarly.
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse.
Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead?
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse.
Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead?
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
I actually think the problem lies in ZvP as the Zerg have very hard time penetrating the P base early to mid game and thus most of the time they decide its not worth it and the game ends up going into the late game.
In WOL Zerg's had the option of 2 base roach rush or even 3 base roach rune, but these days protoss are safe from everything zerg can throw at them.
In fact between FF, MC, and few zealots the protoss can deal easily with everything zerg has to offer until hydras which are over the 12th minute.
With terran they do have more options, like drop harass, though yeah I would love to see banshee harass work in TvP actually.
I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
Blizzard has completely taken a crap on Terran early-game over a long period of time. Protoss definitely is too safe in the early game. 1 base allins just aren't viable (or at least not worth it) against protoss and against zerg it's even worse. TvZ there is only one or two general builds.. 2 CC > hellions > 3rd CC bio widow mine.. & 2 CC > hellbat drop > 3rd CC mech or bio/mine.
Don't get me wrong. I prefer macro over 1 base all-ins as a player and a viewer, but really restricting the options for terran could make the game stale in the foreseeable future.
I like that TvT has such a variety of 1 base allins, harass, AND macro.
What I would like to see: - Nerf mothership core/nexus cannon somehow - Reduce research time on Stim + Combat shields (for defense vs 5:20 oracles and all that cheese, and the potential for terran to be aggressive) - Nerf Queens back to what they were before - Make any changes that give terran more options in the early game...siege tank buff was a nice try...
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles.
I wasn't responding to you at all. I was responding to the comment about the 5:33 oracle build that relies having no stalker or warpgate before the stargate is built and how that can be scouted by a SCV.
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles.
I wasn't responding to you at all. I was responding to the comment about the 5:33 oracle build that relies having no stalker or warpgate before the stargate is built and how that can be scouted by a SCV.
Alright, sorry. Didn't realize that, just thought you tried and pull that stunt again
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
Exactly and protoss have as much to fear from early terran builds as terran have from protoss. The era of the one rax fast expand or builds that relied solely on marines for defense are at thing of the past. Personally, if I breath a sign of relief when I see that a terran is expanding and not doing some one base non-sense.
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
On May 03 2013 23:11 STChobo wrote: dont cry just play with brain
Less QQ more pew pew.
Seriously though if toss is one basing just go mine tank and throw down an ebay if needed. Two tanks with 4-6 mines and marines support shuts any one base play cold. If protoss is playing super greedy + techy with fake collosi tech + fast third just 5 rax SCV all in him at 13-14th minute mark after some drops. If hes playing chargelot archon mix in some hellbats. They do wonders vs that style
If the protoss is shutting down everything either you suck or hes too good.
If you are ByuN you are allowed to play mass ghost viking late game -_-
No terran really wanted to play vs late game protoss back during the last couple months of WoL already, and the new HotS units just gives us more reasons to deny that fact.
Stop trying to play late game TvP, and stop bitching about late game TvP. We are using tier 1-1.5 units vs heavy tier 3+ units. What the heck did you think would happen?
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
No, whatever lead protoss gets in the early game forces the terran to either all in asap and hope for the best, or try and turtle up vs continuous harrasses and just flat die. What makes terran mid game harrass + drop options so strong is that even if we load up 1-2 dropship full of units and go drop, we still have a standing army behind just in case we lose the units, or the protss counter attacks. When the terran player is behind, we simply dont have that many units to contribute to any harrass option.....and usually since we are behind if the protoss sees the drop he'll just shut it down and straight push to win. Thats the main problem with gasless expansions - its too damn risky vs the early harrass play of protoss that forces the terran to turtle up while protoss techs to the composition no terran wishes to deal with.
It is interesting that in HOTS protoss now have a bunch of ways to be agressive early simply because they have the mothership core to provide vision. The mothership core also allows protoss to be more greedy. I still think Mid game is where Terran can shine. But late game is stupid still. I still am pretty anti protoss I feel like one mess up vs storm and you die, and that simply isn't fair. But no point in complaining about it, just have to play the hand that is dealt or play zerg lol.
You act as if Photon Overcharge deals splash damage and is repairable - it does neither of these things. It certainly will not enable a Protoss to hold a vastly superior force when the Protoss does not have access to sufficient splash-damage.
Which is what he said when speaking about past the 10 minute mark. I don't know what you are argueing at this point. Mid-lategame ? Check the title of the thread.
@BronzeKnee i don't think the OP actually disagrees with that (neither do i)
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles.
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse.
Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead?
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
Frankly I'd be surprised if anyone is listening to you given that you have vomited up so much shit in this thread that you are probably having to wipe down your keyboard after every post. You just responded to tar's post about unscouted Terran tech by saying it can't be unscouted because you can use an MSC safely. As I said, its not completely safe to scout with the MSC, because there are a definitely ways that Terran can put on pressure before that point. Another ad hominem crack doesn't make you correct, nor does the fact that the example is uncommon, and can be countered. Players (masters and above) take gambles all the time with builds that can be blind countered
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve.
On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard.
That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs.
The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt.
Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is:
4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins"
Did you even READ my post, like, at all? I just said I think Terran needs to stop depot walling the top of their ramp to avoid donating 2 supply depots for free against allins.
Like I just said, anything that beats Oracles also beats DTs. DTs are just bad before the late game where you can try to backstab expansions, if they have a single turret you lose the game automatically.
Widow mines annihilate void ray allins and blink allins. I've seen blink allin beaten unscouted just by Terran abandoning their natural and continuing to tech, then steamrolling Protoss when stim and medivacs come out. 4 gate warp prism is an awful, awful strat that beats nothing, you can beat it with 6 marines and all your SCVs. And come on, 4-gate? That's been dead since 1.02. I have fond memories of 6 stalkers and 4 zealots losing to 3 marines in an unkillable bunker.
If you make an early e-bay and 2 widow mines for defense as soon as your factory finishes you can beat any allin there is. This is not super expensive. It doesn't stop you from expanding.
Terrans are, quite frankly, playing ridiculously greedy out of some pathological fear of the late game, and are trying to defend allins with 1 rax marines only. They feel that if they can't inflict huge damage with drops in the midgame the game is lost, so they cut every corner to get the drops going ASAP.
I agree with your assessment of early-to-mid game. But really? Late-game favors Terran? OP,Do you ever watch SPL? Have you seen how Protoss beats Terran so easily late game?
On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard.
That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs.
The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt.
Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is:
4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins"
Did you even READ my post, like, at all? I just said I think Terran needs to stop depot walling the top of their ramp to avoid donating 2 supply depots for free against allins.
Like I just said, anything that beats Oracles also beats DTs. DTs are just bad before the late game where you can try to backstab expansions, if they have a single turret you lose the game automatically.
Widow mines annihilate void ray allins and blink allins. I've seen blink allin beaten unscouted just by Terran abandoning their natural and continuing to tech, then steamrolling Protoss when stim and medivacs come out. 4 gate warp prism is an awful, awful strat that beats nothing, you can beat it with 6 marines and all your SCVs. And come on, 4-gate? That's been dead since 1.02. I have fond memories of 6 stalkers and 4 zealots losing to 3 marines in an unkillable bunker.
If you make an early e-bay and 2 widow mines for defense as soon as your factory finishes you can beat any allin there is. This is not super expensive. It doesn't stop you from expanding.
Terrans are, quite frankly, playing ridiculously greedy out of some pathological fear of the late game, and are trying to defend allins with 1 rax marines only. They feel that if they can't inflict huge damage with drops in the midgame the game is lost, so they cut every corner to get the drops going ASAP.
Nah we either drop then all in or just flat all in. Flash needs to learn that in his game vs parting...he wouldve won easily if he simply dragged the lot of his scvs after sniping that third instead of kiting for 5 years while floating enough money for 5 command centers. You already saw what happened that game with late game TvP
Statistically, TvP is the most balanced matchup for Korean pros, so this is much ado about nothing. It's just the issue is that Terran's difficulty curve is steeper on ladder than Protoss, and Protoss' learning curve is steeper on the pro level than Terran. Best you can do is watch how the gosu do it and practice. Theoretically getting "better" as Terran scales faster.
I 100% agree with you. It has gotten to the point to where now I don't even attempt to do anything before the 12-13 minute mark, all I can do is take 3 cc's and hope that toss doesn't all in me (unless of course, toss is doing some silly proxy).
On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard.
That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs.
The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt.
Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop.
You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is:
4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins"
Did you even READ my post, like, at all? I just said I think Terran needs to stop depot walling the top of their ramp to avoid donating 2 supply depots for free against allins.
Like I just said, anything that beats Oracles also beats DTs. DTs are just bad before the late game where you can try to backstab expansions, if they have a single turret you lose the game automatically.
Widow mines annihilate void ray allins and blink allins. I've seen blink allin beaten unscouted just by Terran abandoning their natural and continuing to tech, then steamrolling Protoss when stim and medivacs come out. 4 gate warp prism is an awful, awful strat that beats nothing, you can beat it with 6 marines and all your SCVs. And come on, 4-gate? That's been dead since 1.02. I have fond memories of 6 stalkers and 4 zealots losing to 3 marines in an unkillable bunker.
If you make an early e-bay and 2 widow mines for defense as soon as your factory finishes you can beat any allin there is. This is not super expensive. It doesn't stop you from expanding.
Terrans are, quite frankly, playing ridiculously greedy out of some pathological fear of the late game, and are trying to defend allins with 1 rax marines only. They feel that if they can't inflict huge damage with drops in the midgame the game is lost, so they cut every corner to get the drops going ASAP.
For one thing, walling off your ramp rarely causes you to lose depos to all-ins and it BUYS YOU TIME. Turrets can deal with dts and I've been recently blindly making turrets once I get my ebay up cause of the popularity of dts right now. But oracles come a tad bit fast but most people don't opt for the super fast oracle so that's fine.
Widow mines don't beat voidray all-ins, they take more then 1 shot. Not quite sure how to stop it because I have yet to encounter it but I'd imagine I'd make a turret near my bunker and make as many marines as I could, maybe a viking.
Blink can be a bitch and if you go back into your main the protoss can macro behind their build and if they are good enough, be ahead. 4 gate warp prism will beat 6 marines, they dont normally warp it right in front of your face...
Also, 4 gate still works just fine on maps where your choke isn't a ramp.
If you make an early ebay and widowmines you can not only hold only a couple all-ins, but you will be behind if they dont do any all-in. Immortal bust is not very well countered by an early ebay and widowmines.
Blizzard themselves have come out and said YOU NEED TO WIN THE LATE GAME, THIS GAME IS BALANCED BECAUSE TERRAN WINS FROM AN ADVANTAGE IN THE LATE GAME. that was back in wol. What would you have terrans do?
How did the protoss get a 4 gate warp prism out and you have only built 6 marines? If this is the state of your standing army when you scout a one base protoss, you may wish to reconsider the builds you are using.
On May 03 2013 23:42 axgxFighter wrote: Widow mines don't beat voidray all-ins, they take more then 1 shot. Not quite sure how to stop it because I have yet to encounter it but I'd imagine I'd make a turret near my bunker and make as many marines as I could, maybe a viking.
The mines aren't there to kill the void rays, they're there to explode the stalkers if they try to move up and snipe your marines. Protoss can't detect them off an SG allin so they just whittle the Protoss army down over time, and you can start making more as soon as he starts attacking.
Blink can be a bitch and if you go back into your main the protoss can macro behind their build and if they are good enough, be ahead. 4 gate warp prism will beat 6 marines, they dont normally warp it right in front of your face...
If he expands, you will crush him by just attacking as stim finishes. He has a bunch of zero-dps stalkers and no tech, it doesn't really matter that he's a bunch of supply ahead, his units don't do anything. The best way to lose to a blink allin is to get your stim research sniped, avoid that and you can just counterattack for the win with your first two medivacs.
4-gate warp prism is useless. I said it before, just pull ALL your workers and attack move into it. So what if he has 8 zealots and 4 stalkers in your base? You can lose every single SCV and you are still at a massive advantage because you have an expansion and mules against his 19 probes and no expansion.
If you make an early ebay and widowmines you can not only hold only a couple all-ins, but you will be behind if they dont do any all-in. Immortal bust is not very well countered by an early ebay and widowmines.
See, this is the same "avoid the late game at all costs" thinking again. How are you behind? They have to make a MSC and several observers with standard macro play, that costs a lot more.
Every terran I've talked too for years, from Silver to low Masters, has had the most trouble with TvP in general. Late game TvP has always been just straight up more difficult for the Terran play, and now with Oracles and the MSC early game is as well. After TvZ settles down and is evenly balanced I think TvP is going to be the next matchup everyone looks too as imbalanced or unwinnable or whatever/
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss.
This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time.
Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips.
In WoL my best match up by far was TvP, I had a 70% win rate on ladder vs protoss consistently. It was easy to scout different allins, then put a couple bunkers down to defend and a turret if they had 2 gas. It was also not too hard to punish them for being very greedy.
In HotS I really agree with a lot of the OP. My winrate is down to about 40-45% vs protoss and I literally can't pressure them before I have medivacs out. I used to often do 1 rax gasless expand into 4 rax marine pressure then tech up to medivacs in WoL, but now even if they get 1 gate -> nexus -> 2x forge -> robo -> 2nd/3rd gate, the 4 rax pressure can't do damage because of photon overcharge.
I don't think the game is necessarily imbalanced, as there are lots of holes in my later game tvp and of course my macro could use some work, but it's very annoying how greedy protoss can be now without being punished.
On May 04 2013 00:00 axgxFighter wrote: Actually he can make oracles for detectors if he wants, that may take away from his all-in a tiny bit but he could. Losing all your scvs does not put you ahead because you have 2 mules -_- 2 mules is 320 minerals a minute... a protoss all-inning will probably have 16 probes on minerals, that's 640 minerals a minute. How far ahead are you again? Yes I know you can stop a warp prism 4 gate and quite easily. But not with 6 marines... The issue is protoss has so many all-ins and terran has none right now. None that actually works on good players. For instance a lot of players stop blink with tanks and oracles with mines, mean while the protoss just does their build and uses msc and is fine. Not much adaptation going on what so ever.
Yes, you are far ahead. He has to spend 400 minerals on a nexus, you already have your expansion. You can produce SCVs at twice the rate he can produce probes. Any SCVs you produce are at full effectiveness immediately, any probes he produces do nothing until the nexus finishes. You are far ahead in economy, and his lack of gas is far more crippling for him than it is for you, as he needs gas-heavy units to have any chance at all against kiting bio.
Trust me on this one, I used 4-gate warp prism a lot and got shown exactly how useless of a build it is. When you pull it on a Terran that went opened CC/rax/CC, get two rounds of warpins in his base before he even sees that it's there, and STILL get crushed by 5 marines and an SCV swarm, you'll see what I mean.
Thorzain versus Titan from their second set in WCS EU. Thorzain does a proxy build and wins the first game comfortably. Then he does the same build and despite the most insane defense he finally loses too many probes to the umpteenth drop. Terran scouting has always been better than Protoss' scouting and it still is. Flying an MSC across the map leaves a vulnerable period where it isn't there for overcharge, and Protoss doesn't have a 3.8 movement speed unit that can get renewable scouting. Overcharge is needed in its current form because there is no way for us to get reliable scouting.
Wall-ins deny all ground scouting and marines on the perimeter shut down the MSC. Hallucination works but that also means you have 2 less forcefields/no guardian shield for when the all-in actually hits. It also doesn't come fast enough for some all-ins.
And if you think that lategame is somehow Protoss favored, watch Thorzain versus Titan on Daybreak game 3 of the first set. Titan gets a 40 supply lead with better economy. But he tries to attack the third base and gets buried under a sea of instant-damage, energy-draining psi storms(EMPs).
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss.
This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time.
Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips.
But you know it is some sort of proxy non-sense if you see no units, no warpgate and the third plyon is no where to be seen in the protoss base. You don't need to invest in 2 turrets, just get the ebay and try to find the proxy building. You stock pile a few mines off the factory, save a few scans and wait for the stupid all in to come.
None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss.
This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time.
Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips.
But you know it is some sort of proxy non-sense if you see no units, no warpgate and the third plyon is no where to be seen in the protoss base. You don't need to invest in 2 turrets, just get the ebay and try to find the proxy building. You stock pile a few mines off the factory, save a few scans and wait for the stupid all in to come.
None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
The difference is that if a Terran does it, it is mindgames. If a Protoss does it, it is coinflip, gimmick, omg, remove!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss.
This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time.
Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips.
So do a reaper opening. What reason is there to not spend just 50 gas to essentially have guaranteed scouting of everything in the Protoss main with a strong chance at getting another scouting opportunity later on. Not to mention a reaper opening is extremely good against nexus first.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
never lost to greedy protoss in master league for a while opening 3 rax reaper im still able to harass the P properly . defending 1 base allin is tough though
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Mofocore and the mofoship was bad unit design from the get-go. Don't even know why blizzard is not insisting on remaking a unit. Probably trying to save face. Mofocore is creating problems in all 3 matchups not just pvt.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
So you built an ebay, missile turret in mineral line, and then it turns out its 4 gate blink stalker. Autoloss.
This is the issue people are describing. Protoss has too many options compared to Terran in early game openings. What would help is if they removed the ebay requirement to build missile turrets, as then if you see a proxy stargate or think DTS, you can invest into a turret in time.
Investing in an ebay + 2 turrets + a bunker when the opponent happens to have gone immortal all-in, or blink stalker, or even standard macro with a 7 minute planetary fortress is the worst feeling ever. You are literally just behind because of the threat of insta-dying to coin flips.
But you know it is some sort of proxy non-sense if you see no units, no warpgate and the third plyon is no where to be seen in the protoss base. You don't need to invest in 2 turrets, just get the ebay and try to find the proxy building. You stock pile a few mines off the factory, save a few scans and wait for the stupid all in to come.
None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Plz watch my replay, i dont play protoss but i think it's a decent example. http://drop.sc/330210 I have warpgate started as soon as the core is done. I did only make 1 pylon in my base and you could scout that, but if i hid my sg really well... would you really know which all-in i was doing?
I am at work and can't watch the relay until later. But if there was one pylon in the base, my all-in alarm would go off and I would freak the fuck out. That is what protoss look for when they scout other protoss players(or at least I do). I don't need to know exactly what all in you are doing, just that it is some sort of proxy non-sense and make decisions based on that.
Then you save a few scans, because you don't need the mules against a one base protoss and dump out a bunch of mines and marines. Get the ebay too, maybe. And send out a couple of scouts to try and find the proxy. It is easy to see this stuff coming if you know enough about the enemy and limit what it could be and the rest is just living through it.
On May 04 2013 00:05 mastman wrote: Perhaps terrans should start stim earlier... instead of teching straight to medivacs and hellbat or widow mine drops, while also making 3 cc's.
Stim never helps, it's the sheer amount of units that you lack against warpgate supported all-ins. You have to compensate for this with static defenses like turrets or bunkers, but the trick is to invest in just the right amount that you're both safe from what you've scouted and not behind because of all this mineral spending.
Edit: After seeing the group of death, I think the mothership core was a great addition to the game. What worries me is the new buffed oracle, that shit seems crazy strong :D
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
But pro terran's are tiny gods and are able to make builds work that normal players can't. Haven't you learned anything over the last year and a half about terran. Professional terrans winning doesn't prove anything because they are simply to good and normal terran players will never obtain that level of skill and control.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
But pro terran's are tiny gods and are able to make builds work that normal players can't. Haven't you learned anything over the last year and a half about terran. Professional terrans winning doesn't prove anything because they are simply to good and normal terran players will never obtain that level of skill and control.
So how do you propose to balance a race of a game aimed to be competitive - with the idea that the competitive players will simply do things a normal player can't?
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable?
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
But pro terran's are tiny gods and are able to make builds work that normal players can't. Haven't you learned anything over the last year and a half about terran. Professional terrans winning doesn't prove anything because they are simply to good and normal terran players will never obtain that level of skill and control.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable?
Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good.
I don't think you're necessarily behind if you play standard, but atm, you're kinda forced to go either 15gas FE or CC first... no real variations possible, sadly.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable?
Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good.
Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle.
And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build.
I think that what you stated is true, but I don't think tvp is horribly imba because of the new reaper. I'm a masters Terran and my Intire tvp right now revolves around using a reaper scout to Taylor builds wich put me ahead. Also I think tvp will only ever be ballanced at the highest level because Terran army control is so challenging in comparison to Protoss army control in straight up fights and getting hit by storms is so punishing. however at the highest level Terran players have such good multi pronged aggression, build orders, mechanics, and control that I think they can use the Terran kit effectively vs toss and things are rather ballanced.
On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles.
On May 03 2013 23:06 drop271 wrote:
On May 03 2013 22:57 SlixSC wrote:
On May 03 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote:
On May 03 2013 22:50 SlixSC wrote:
On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:
On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards.
The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight.
20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha.
On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out.
Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse.
Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead?
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
Frankly I'd be surprised if anyone is listening to you given that you have vomited up so much shit in this thread that you are probably having to wipe down your keyboard after every post. You just responded to tar's post about unscouted Terran tech by saying it can't be unscouted because you can use an MSC safely. As I said, its not completely safe to scout with the MSC, because there are a definitely ways that Terran can put on pressure before that point. Another ad hominem crack doesn't make you correct, nor does the fact that the example is uncommon, and can be countered. Players (masters and above) take gambles all the time with builds that can be blind countered
So you were proven wrong and this is your comeback? "You vomit up shit".
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable?
Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good.
Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle.
And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build.
I think you are incorrect that the protoss all-ins more dangerous that the terran versions. And all all-ins are easier to preform than defend, it has always been that way. Baneling busts are not hard to preform, but it is difficult to defend without taking losses.
1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve.
In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon).
Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable?
Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good.
Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle.
And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build.
I think protoss all-ins are more dangerous because protoss needs to really go all in to pull them off. Their builds don't allow for a halfway all-in like most terran builds do because of things like mules and being able to build CCs in the safety of their base with things like bunkers. Protoss doesn't get to make a forge during an all in, so they can't sit back and macro up with cannons if they fail. I think it's a fair trade off.
If anyone has some free time, I think it would be a cool project to comb through the post histories of Terrans complaining in this thread, and see what they thought back in the 1/1/1 days. Curious what the results would be.
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve.
In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon).
Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way.
The terran builds are limited now, but they are likely to grow with time as the metagame shifts. I like the safer protoss openings that don’t require an endless gas dump into sentries and a greater ability to assert map control. It is just a more interesting game and I still fear terran in the early game if I can’t figure out what they are doing. The all-ins are strong right now, but defending new all-in them has always been a struggle and takes time. And the terran mid game is fine, because it is intresting to try to figure out way to delay that third base while also defending against speed drops.
On May 04 2013 00:11 Plansix wrote: None of this sound any different from what happens when a terran one bases-proxys a protoss. It not fun and feels like crap when you lose, but it can be held off. There is nothing awesome about two hellbats landing in your mineral line and you were preparing for something else. Or a proxy banshee that makes no sense, but there it is, killing your probes.
Except there is zero 1-base viable proxy from the Terran side because proxy Mines are easily dealt with using Stalkers at home while you counter-proxy Oracle to collect your free win, or simply Stargate in base and send your first Oracle towards Terran's undefended mineral line (First vs Dream, Akilon Wastes, IEM). Proxied second rax doesn't exist anymore because it's awful, and proxy Banshees are garbage that don't threaten anything since Protoss always has detection at home when playing standard (because of the threat of Mine drops). I don't know what your league is if you encounter proxy Hellbat drops, but it's a horrible gimmick too.
Thorzain versus Titan game 1 from the final match of their WCS EU group would like a word with you.
Yes, and GuMiho vs Rain, Bel'shir Vestige from Code S too. Doesn't change anything about what I said.
Terran pros win games with 1-base proxies >>> 1 base Terran proxies not viable. K.
Instead of replying with a stupid sarcasm, have you considered that maybe they won because their opponent didn't react correctly, and not because the build itself is viable?
Because that argument could be applied to protoss all-ins as well and that terrans aren't responding property. Also, Rain is one of the best protoss in the world, so if the build beat him, it was likely pretty good.
Except Protoss all-ins are way more dangerous, and perfectly reacting in such a way that you auto-win after fending him off the all-in (for instance Blink Stalkers) is considerably harder than building a Stargate and an Oracle.
And no, bad builds can win even the best players in the world. Soulkey is a very good Zerg and still he lost right away to 8-8-8 against Maru, which doesn't mean 8-8-8 is a "pretty good" build.
I think you are incorrect that the protoss all-ins more dangerous that the terran versions. And all all-ins are easier to preform than defend, it has always been that way. Baneling busts are not hard to preform, but it is difficult to defend without taking losses.
Just forget about him. He's making up "facts" about things that A. He has no understanding of. B. can't actually be proven in any way.
Saying things like "Protoss allins are just better" and "8-8-8 is a bad build" is a completely ambiguous cop out that you use to "prove" your argument. When in reality there is no way to actually determine if your accurate and so we can't really evaluate the truth value of your claim at all.
On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: Case and point is Woongjin SoS going 1 gate expand directly into a 2rax bunker rush from bomber that he scouted, not even a second thought about canceling his nexus. The next game he kills him with a 3gate (bomber lost 19 scvs to the 3gate, when sOs expanded).
[/i]
I do not understand the complaints about Bomber's game against SOS from the OP.
SOS played an ultra safe build by all standards. He made a 100 gas unit and a 50 gas unit for defense and he scouted the Proxy Rax. What do you want in that scenario? How much stuff does a Protoss have to build in your opinion before they are allowed to expand without dying?
You cheese, the opponent plays safe and scouts your proxies > you lose. SOS played better than Bomber so he won. That is all that happened on that day.
On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins.
Proxy building. Not proxy tech.
The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal.
On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins.
Proxy building. Not proxy tech.
The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal.
And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety.
And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk.
On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
2 rax was already an awful build at the end of WoL and HotS only made things worse. The build is completely non-viable against competent opponents, so you only win with it because your opponents have no clue.
On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
this does not work anymore against a fast expanding protoss, im high masters and you just cant kill the protoss. Nexus cannon range is HUGE and the only options you have is to run up the ramp while the nexus cannon kills 2-3 units and then you have to deal with the units on the top of the ramp. 2rax is dead because it doesn't pay for itself anymore. Terran needs some early game options!
Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: I want this thread to be a discussion on the topic at hand, and I'll be totally honest I dont know how you fix it without breaking another matchup. That being said Starcraft 2 needs to be both fair and entertaining at the professional level, and reasonably balanced for the scrubs playing ladder. It's important that players on both sides of every matchup have the ability to both be aggressive and at the same time use the information given to them to be defensive.
From watching Dreamhack, and then into the GSL I haven't seen a Terran player be able to execute an early attack successfully on a Protoss player, no matter the level of greed the Protoss player is abusing. It's not uncommon to see 6 or 7 zealots and a pair of sentries as the defense for a Protoss player heading into the 10th or 11th minute of a game. The opposite is true of Protoss players being aggressive against Terrans. I've seen Terrans lose to oracles, 2stalker mc attacks, oracle busts, four gates, blink all ins, immortal busts and even dt's.
Protoss can easily, even with minimal to no scouting information defend Terran aggression without even having to deviate from their normal build. The basic point of MSC+3 warp gates and some form of detection will stop nearly any Terran attack early on in the game, up until the mid-late. There is very little extra preparation required to stop most Terran attacks, and with good reaction time + unit positioning it's fairly easy for a high level Protoss to stop Terran aggression. Case and point is Woongjin SoS going 1 gate expand directly into a 2rax bunker rush from bomber that he scouted, not even a second thought about canceling his nexus. The next game he kills him with a 3gate (bomber lost 19 scvs to the 3gate, when sOs expanded).
The reverse is simply not true. If the Terran player is unable to scout early aggression from the Protoss player there many situations where he simply dies. The frustration however does come from one specific front, but from the multiple different ways a Terran needs to defend. Couple that with the extreme difficulty Terran has in properly scouting and figuring out what Protoss is doing. The final nail in the coffin is all the different ways a Terran needs to prepare for the various all ins a Protoss can do. Most of them require very specific setups to defend and being safe against something is hard enough even with perfect information. The case here? Polt scouting grubby's proxy oracle twice and both times being unable to defend the oncoming attacks.
Then there the greedy Protoss. If the Protoss just simply goes for extremely fast upgrades and either fast Colossus or even more scary very fast upgrades and templar the Terran player can be in a world of trouble. The case study here is Parting vs. Flash where Flash is safe against proxy oracles, scouting for anything that Parting might be hiding etc. Then Flash simply can't out micro Zealot/Archon because the upgrades Parting has are first class, Flash just dies without so much as a whimper. Now I dont want to take anything away from Parting because he proved that his builds were air tight, and he played extremely well but it was hard to watch.
The ability to read what a Protoss player is doing is also extremely difficult right now, some of the best Korean terrans in the world are struggling to get a grasp on what their opponent is doing. Hell Flash seemed confused by what Parting was going to do. 2 Pylons, 350 mined gas, a Stalker and Mothership core could easily be any build Protoss has available, from proxy oracles, blink all ins, 2stalker mc rush, dt's or a fast expansion. There is not clear indication of aggression or macro play from that particular set of buildings. Add into the mixture the randomness and lack of polish on your average ladder and things can get extremely difficult in a hurry.
The discussion point is this though. Is there an imbalance in win/lose states to TvP in the first 11-12 minutes of the game. What do I mean by this? Well simply put there is no lose state for Protoss in the early game of TvP unless the Protoss player makes a mistake regarding control/map awareness. Protoss can play a safe build and be fine against anything Terran does, assuming they react in time. Terran on the other hand has multiple lose states unless they are specifically prepared to defend them.
TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
My conclusion here is pretty simple. Early->Mid game TvP really needs to be looked at and taken seriously by Blizzard. The matchup is quickly becoming a ladder nightmare for a lot of Terran players, and in tournament play it's starting to really lean in Protoss players favour where small advantages become huge ones when you involve the best players in the world. I would love to see the sub 12 minute matchup winrates for TvP, but I dont have access to those statistics.
Please for the love of god discuss recent pro games, your own experiences etc. I'm extremely interested in games where equally skilled players compete that go against what I'm presenting here, so link and bring evidence. Most importantly discuss things with intelligence and respect.
I want to make this point clear as well, even though it is basically unrelated to the discussion of this thread. I feel that Terran has a huge advantage in late game TvP, and with the right mixture of units+great control will ALWAYS win the fights. I think that is something that is better discussed in different threads.
You're correct that there hasn't been a many opportunities for Terran to attack in recent TvP pro games. However, this is only because Protoss players aren't playing greedy enough. Once Protoss players adapt their builds to take advantage of their superior defensive position in HOTS, plenty of opportunities for Terran aggression will appear.
So, I think your worries are unfounded. In fact, in RTS games, opportunities for early game aggression inevitably present themselves as players optimize their builds.
The early game only stagnates if one race is 1) unable to scout his opponent effectively to determine what threats there are and 2) lacks troop mobility so that when he misreads his opponent his army is killed instead of retreating. Because Terran lacks neither of these (with reapers openings, scans, and the speed of MM compared to zealots and sentries) Terran will have no trouble staging attacks as the metagame develops.
On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
2 rax was already an awful build at the end of WoL and HotS only made things worse. The build is completely non-viable against competent opponents, so you only win with it because your opponents have no clue.
2 rax was a decent build in WoL (and used at pro level, mainly by MarineKing). But I agree that it doesn't do shit anymore in HotS.
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins.
Proxy building. Not proxy tech.
The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal.
And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety.
And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk.
All right, you have invalided all further arguments by saying that warp prism, DT expo is no risk for the protoss. You over estimate the power of the MSC and nexus cannon.
On May 04 2013 01:05 dNa wrote: 1 base concussive shell 2 rax works like a charm. (reactor on first rax after 1 marine, techlab on 2nd rax as soon as it finishes. start attack as soon as 2nd marauder+ concussive shells finish.) -> 60% winrate @ high diamond and low Masters (both NA and EU).
I'm on the mission to make protosses less greedy guys. i got this.
2 rax was already an awful build at the end of WoL and HotS only made things worse. The build is completely non-viable against competent opponents, so you only win with it because your opponents have no clue.
2 rax was a decent build in WoL (and used at pro level, mainly by MarineKing). But I agree that it doesn't do shit anymore in HotS.
Nope, it was horrible as Protoss was systematically convincingly ahead when defending properly, and could easily kill you with an Immortal bust afterwards (even if they had to cancel their expand and go 2gR expand). I know MarineKing or Polt still used it sometimes, but from memory it was mostly on TDA (no ramp at natural + scouting lottery / possibility of close spawns). Flash used it too once on EV against Bong in Proleague (link), but unsurprisingly it did not go well at all.
I think the best solution so far has come from avilo. Just Remove the ebay requirement for Missile Turrets. This makes it a lot easier to hold proxy stargate IF scouted and also makes DTs less troublesome.
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
6 rax? You mean gasless 6 rax after expand, what MarineKing used against herO on the MLG Winter Consolation Bracket (link)? A horrible gimmick that only worked because herO didn't bother to MSC poke or scout at all.
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
so now you are talking 2 base? but where are the 1 base all-ins? we are only counting protoss 1 base all-ins, if we include 2 base all-ins, we might aswell include 7 gate, 2 base collossi, etc..
For any 1 Terran all-in I can name 5 protoss all-ins.
On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins.
Proxy building. Not proxy tech.
The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal.
And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety.
And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk.
All right, you have invalided all further arguments by saying that warp prism, DT expo is no risk for the protoss. You over estimate the power of the MSC and nexus cannon.
Pretty much this
Dt drop is intended to do on average enough economic damage to end up ahead. Like all aggressive builds, this most definitely has the potential to set the Protoss back from being slightly behind to almost unwinnable. Think of this like cloak banshee. You can get ahead of your opponent but you risk being completely behind against any defensive 1-1-1 expand builds or fast enough turrets.
On May 04 2013 00:24 eScaper-tsunami wrote: Mofocore and the mofoship was bad unit design from the get-go. Don't even know why blizzard is not insisting on remaking a unit. Probably trying to save face. Mofocore is creating problems in all 3 matchups not just pvt.
Talk about exaggeration from a biased point of view. "Mofocore" improved PvP by heaps. It also made it less terrifying to deal with the plethora of zerg allins, all of which aren't really allins. It also alleviates the pain brought by mutas, which are extremely powerful at the moment.
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
so now you are talking 2 base? but where are the 1 base all-ins? we are only counting protoss 1 base all-ins, if we include 2 base all-ins, we might aswell include 7 gate, 2 base collossi, etc..
For any 1 Terran all-in I can name 5 protoss all-ins.
3 rax into double cc was really funny by the way
The stupidity and lack of actual content in your posts is quite astounding.
On May 04 2013 01:25 SlixSC wrote: what is this variety of all-ins everyone seems to be referencing?
6:30 medivac drop ????
Since apparently we can be that ambiguous with our statements here's all of Protoss all-ins.
Proxy building. Not proxy tech.
The key is how many things can go into the medivac? Hellions, hellbats, widow mines. And realistically those aren't even all-ins. Terran can tech out of their pressure builds better than Protoss and don't need as much committal.
And you defend all of them the same way. By having your MSC ready and units next to your mineral line. If this is everything Protoss players have to worry about it really isn't comparable in the slightest to protoss all-ins, who have alot more variety.
And players transition out of protoss all-ins all the time and its easier for protoss because terran has no way of punishing it thanks to nexus cannon. let's not fabricate "facts" here pls. warp prism dt expo isn't all-in either, auto wins lots of games and protoss is at NO risk.
All right, you have invalided all further arguments by saying that warp prism, DT expo is no risk for the protoss. You over estimate the power of the MSC and nexus cannon.
Pretty much this
Dt drop is intended to do on average enough economic damage to end up ahead. Like all aggressive builds, this most definitely has the potential to set the Protoss back from being slightly behind to almost unwinnable. Think of this like cloak banshee. You can get ahead of your opponent but you risk being completely behind against any defensive 1-1-1 expand builds or fast enough turrets.
No you dont. Kas beat Shuttle just yesterday going fast banshee vs. fast turrets and there were plenty of games won by protoss after failing the DT rush, dts are cheaper and you can go directly into collo as a follow up.
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve.
In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon).
Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way.
The terran builds are limited now, but they are likely to grow with time as the metagame shifts. I like the safer protoss openings that don’t require an endless gas dump into sentries and a greater ability to assert map control. It is just a more interesting game and I still fear terran in the early game if I can’t figure out what they are doing. The all-ins are strong right now, but defending new all-in them has always been a struggle and takes time. And the terran mid game is fine, because it is intresting to try to figure out way to delay that third base while also defending against speed drops.
If we learned anything from WOL, it is that the number of viable builds becomes more limited with time, rather than expanding.
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
so now you are talking 2 base? but where are the 1 base all-ins? we are only counting protoss 1 base all-ins, if we include 2 base all-ins, we might aswell include 7 gate, 2 base collossi, etc..
For any 1 Terran all-in I can name 5 protoss all-ins.
3 rax into double cc was really funny by the way
The stupidity and lack of actual content in your posts is quite astounding.
that's not an argument, are we personally insulting eachother now?
On May 03 2013 23:36 Cloak wrote: Statistically, TvP is the most balanced matchup for Korean pros, so this is much ado about nothing. It's just the issue is that Terran's difficulty curve is steeper on ladder than Protoss, and Protoss' learning curve is steeper on the pro level than Terran. Best you can do is watch how the gosu do it and practice. Theoretically getting "better" as Terran scales faster.
That was in wol, the jury is still out on hots. Please try to keep up :p
Protoss in WoL was down across the board when the dust settled. I am keeping up. Talking about April tournaments here. PvT is the closest to 50%. The thread is front page still.
On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote: I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve.
In some ways it is better, but in many ways it is worse. There is reduced variety of viable builds for Terran, which is bad. Every game playing out the same isn't fun, or even strategic, it is just comes down to better micro in the end.
I wouldn't mind seeing the Nexus Cannon go and the MSC getting Energize, so Protoss can fill up their Sentries to use Hallucination for scouting and have a lot of FF for defense (FFs take a lot more skill to use than the Nexus Cannon).
Eitherway, any nerf to Protoss early needs to come with a nerf to Terran mid game. Basically Protoss is stronger early in HOTS, but Terran has a stronger midgame. And the winrates show 50% each way.
The terran builds are limited now, but they are likely to grow with time as the metagame shifts. I like the safer protoss openings that don’t require an endless gas dump into sentries and a greater ability to assert map control. It is just a more interesting game and I still fear terran in the early game if I can’t figure out what they are doing. The all-ins are strong right now, but defending new all-in them has always been a struggle and takes time. And the terran mid game is fine, because it is intresting to try to figure out way to delay that third base while also defending against speed drops.
If we learned anything from WOL, it is that the number of viable builds becomes more limited with time, rather than expanding.
That is true as well. I think Blizzard and the community needs to make sure that a lot of openings stay viable. We can't get into the era where protoss are going FFE every game vs zergs and PvT degrades down to "who drops their expansion first". If the all-ins become a huge problem and limit terran, I will be the first to say that they should be pulled back a bit. But I don't want the game to be as safe was WoL was.
personally i think msc is too versatile for its cost, a 100/100 190 health flying unit with decent ground dps that can pull a slow field, mass recall and a nexus cannon with 13 range, big dps thats hits both air and ground and lasts 1min? idk.
i know pvp was is in a bad state and it was really needed but yeah i think atm it's a bit excessive in tvp. drops? banshees? any sort of early aggression? the cannon can fend it off in no time. almost all kind of aggression is deflected pre 10. and it can be casted twice in a row with banked energy.
On May 04 2013 01:20 Toadvine wrote: If anyone has some free time, I think it would be a cool project to comb through the post histories of Terrans complaining in this thread, and see what they thought back in the 1/1/1 days. Curious what the results would be.
That would be entertaining. A lot of ... really ...really bad ideas here. I would add in a special mark for everyone who liked the warhound.
That said mothership core does kill off a lot of kinda cool dances between units and force fields early on. It's a sloppy solution but I suppose probably the simplest.
On May 04 2013 01:52 Bam Lee wrote: I think the best solution so far has come from avilo. Just Remove the ebay requirement for Missile Turrets. This makes it a lot easier to hold proxy stargate IF scouted and also makes DTs less troublesome.
This is a GREAT idea, they've already done that for zerg with spore crawlers, but to make everything fair and above board perhaps Blizzard should also remove the forge requirement for cannons? This makes it a lot easier to hold off drop play IF scouted and also makes cloaked banshees and widow mines less troublesome. Yet another stellar balance change suggestion from our resident terran whiner; Avilo!
On May 04 2013 01:52 Bam Lee wrote: I think the best solution so far has come from avilo. Just Remove the ebay requirement for Missile Turrets. This makes it a lot easier to hold proxy stargate IF scouted and also makes DTs less troublesome.
This is a GREAT idea, they've already done that for zerg with spore crawlers, but to make everything fair and above board perhaps Blizzard should also remove the forge requirement for cannons? This makes it a lot easier to hold off drop play IF scouted and also makes cloaked banshees and widow mines less troublesome. Yet another stellar balance change suggestion from our resident terran whiner; Avilo!
have you ever lost to a turret rush? I dont really see the absurdity in his suggestion.
I see a lot of people saying some ridiculous things with complete and utter bias here(avilo im looking at you too).
1. Toss can play extremely greedy and safe for the most part. This is a fact. 2. If the toss plays extremely greedy(like they should) then so can the terran if your scouting isn't shit...you have a reaper that only dies if it's your fault. You should NEVER lose a reaper. 3. If toss didn't have this option, the terran advantage in the midgame would be way too huge and protoss would need a ridiculous nerf.
So how about saying this: Because the terran midgame is good right now, the protoss NEEDS a motherhship core so they can play a game past 12 minutes and actually take a third. If you think that the mothership core needs a nerf, don't be an asshole and just say that it's unfair. Actually go out of your way and say what terran would need to have nerfed or protoss would have to get buffed.
The balance is actually really good right now. No allin is too strong if you scout and don't play too greedy.
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
6 rax? You mean gasless 6 rax after expand, what MarineKing used against herO on the MLG Winter Consolation Bracket (link)? A horrible gimmick that only worked because herO didn't bother to MSC poke or scout at all.
Hero played ultra ultra greedy and got punished for it.
If he had poked with msc he might have gotten that it wasn't 2rax tech but this goes to show what greedy toss play is. People are saying that 3gate obs is a greedy build just because Protoss went1g expand before that and that there should be 1base Terran allins that beat that build despite this being possibly the safest pvt build nowadays that can match the potential of cc first, 1rax expand into tech or just straight up hellion wm medi play.
On May 04 2013 02:06 absoluteX wrote: personally i think msc is too versatile for its cost, a 100/100 190 health flying unit with decent ground dps that can pull a slow field, mass recall and a nexus cannon with 13 range, big dps thats hits both air and ground and lasts 1min? idk.
i know pvp was is in a bad state and it was really needed but yeah i think atm it's a bit excessive in tvp. drops? banshees? any sort of early aggression? the cannon can fend it off in no time. almost all kind of aggression is deflected pre 10. and it can be casted twice in a row.
I think player over estimate the power of the nexus cannon. The cannon takes 5 shots to kill a single widow mins and 8 to kill a medivac. The cannon alone will not stop a speed vac from dropping off mines and might not even kill the medivac if something pulls its agro(assuming the player doesn't retarget the medivac). Widow mines can't pull its agro over a medivac or marine.
It is a powerful ability, but it will not stop all aggression, even with support.
On May 04 2013 01:43 peidongyang wrote: Just how a Terran 3rax double cc with scan around 9 assuming scouted nexus is considered a safe build, the same can be said that 1g expand into 3gate into robo or 1g robo into expand into 3G robo are pretty much safe builds.
You can't say that triple cc or 1 rax tech after expo is a safe build just because you have 3bunkers in the same manner u cant say 9minute third or 1gate colossus is safe build for Protoss.
True, premedivac or ultrafast tech builds from Protoss still can kill the Terran player but by the same logic 6rax into 3cc or 5rax timing can easily outright do the same. Both builds have a similar risk profile. From the Protoss point of view, if the immortal push fails, it's an auto lose, and if it succeeds its an autowin. The same can be said for 5 Rax scv pull attacks.
Terran and Protoss builds offer roughly the same risk and return profiles. However, Protoss are sticking with safer builds due to possible 1rax tech play and many terrans, especially flash, choose to use riskier builds which pretty much have the potential to build into a 70-80% late game winrate.
What nonsense.
6 rax or 5 rax? are you playing an SC2 mod without forcefields and nexus cannon? whats the map name in arcade?
6rax - Mkp marine attack to counter slow colossus play and fast upgrades 5rax - the standard 5 Rax 4 medi scv shove
Btw from ur previous posts u clearly are the one who is playing the arcade here
6 rax? You mean gasless 6 rax after expand, what MarineKing used against herO on the MLG Winter Consolation Bracket (link)? A horrible gimmick that only worked because herO didn't bother to MSC poke or scout at all.
Hero played ultra ultra greedy and got punished for it.
If he had poked with msc he might have gotten that it wasn't 2rax tech but this goes to show what greedy toss play is. People are saying that 3gate obs is a greedy build just because Protoss went1g expand before that and that there should be 1base Terran allins that beat that build despite this being possibly the safest pvt build nowadays that can match the potential of cc first, 1rax expand into tech or just straight up hellion wm medi play.
thats a terrible argument. to argue that greedy protoss builds arent greedy because you could play even greedier, is just as ridiculous as it would be to argue that 3 hatch before pool isn't greedy because... you know you could be even greedier and go 5 hatch.
I'm actually pretty satisfied with TvP early and mid. P allins have always been strong, but it seems necessary because of how feeble P is midgame. Its easy to rage about scouting them, but that's always been a part of the game. And the goal of T should be NOT to let P get that AoE army late game or at least keep the armies trimmed down (not 4 colossi and 10 templar).
I also think "limited" builds is incredibly close minded. There are multiple openings and transition options for T to roll with through the game. It's not anywhere close to TvZ at the end of WoL, where you basically had two options.
It's funny, I've been worried that P is going to start butthurting about hellbats and widow mines and Blizzard will overreact and nerf them, but it seems T is upset?
It is possible for Terran to win early Toss.. but thats provided Terran go the safest build,eg early vikings marines,bunker and stim.. And i totally agree that protoss has a much easier time throughout the game.
On May 04 2013 02:12 peidongyang wrote: Hero played ultra ultra greedy and got punished for it.
I would rather say MKP used a blind coinflip and succeeded. herO's build in itself wasn't even greedy, it's just that—from memory—he completely skipped warp-ins for too long blindly assuming MKP would go 3 rax Medivacs. I don't call this 6 rax a "punishment" because MKP had no way to know how herO would play after expand when he chose to go 6 rax. His gamble went well, but you can't expect it to always succeed, hence why this build remains a gimmick that won't even have an impact on Protoss' development since a simple MSC poke or a Hallucination is all it takes to reactively block it.
If he had poked with msc he might have gotten that it wasn't 2rax tech but this goes to show what greedy toss play is. People are saying that 3gate obs is a greedy build just because Protoss went1g expand before that and that there should be 1base Terran allins that beat that build despite this being possibly the safest pvt build nowadays that can match the potential of cc first, 1rax expand into tech or just straight up hellion wm medi play.
People don't have problem with 1g exe → robo gate gate (or if they do, don't listen to them anyway). People have problems with being unable to do anything against 5'45 dual forge or robo forge council before extra gates even with agressive builds such as Marines/Mines elevator after expand.
On May 04 2013 02:20 AKomrade wrote: I'm actually pretty satisfied with TvP early and mid. P allins have always been strong, but it seems necessary because of how feeble P is midgame. Its easy to rage about scouting them, but that's always been a part of the game. And the goal of T should be NOT to let P get that AoE army late game or at least keep the armies trimmed down (not 4 colossi and 10 templar).
I also think "limited" builds is incredibly close minded. There are multiple openings and transition options for T to roll with through the game. It's not anywhere close to TvZ at the end of WoL, where you basically had two options.
It's funny, I've been worried that P is going to start butthurting about hellbats and widow mines and Blizzard will overreact and nerf them, but it seems T is upset?
It's because Protoss are usually going to be aggressive beforehand or play safer builds. You'll see the toss QQ when the metagame shifts again though when every map is like whirlwind or oh that whatever mines map.
That or the complaining in this thread gets to blizzard and we get 1/1/1 for another half a year.
On May 04 2013 02:25 peidongyang wrote: That or the complaining in this thread gets to blizzard and we get 1/1/1 for another half a year.
Please. 1-1-1 was already virtually dead at the end of the WoL; sure it could still win games from time to time, even at pro level, but the best ways to defend it were known and Protoss would only lose when having bad engagements or losing too many Probes to whatever harass Terran was doing before (Hellion drop or Cloak Banshees).
On May 04 2013 01:52 Bam Lee wrote: I think the best solution so far has come from avilo. Just Remove the ebay requirement for Missile Turrets. This makes it a lot easier to hold proxy stargate IF scouted and also makes DTs less troublesome.
This is a GREAT idea, they've already done that for zerg with spore crawlers, but to make everything fair and above board perhaps Blizzard should also remove the forge requirement for cannons? This makes it a lot easier to hold off drop play IF scouted and also makes cloaked banshees and widow mines less troublesome. Yet another stellar balance change suggestion from our resident terran whiner; Avilo!
have you ever lost to a turret rush? I dont really see the absurdity in his suggestion.
The absurdity is that is shouldn't be a case of just being able to hold things you aren't prepared for. Some strategies will just win against others, hence the existence of build order wins. No strategy is going to be safe vs everything, unless you specifically design in scouting triggers where your build will deviate in set ways. While there was some merit to the spore crawler change (but not much), the same cannot be said for altering missile turrets. The ability to use scans anywhere any time will always remove ANY argument based on the premise of detection, moreover Blizzard should not be encouraging poor scouting practices, Reapers are by far the best scouting units available in the early game, not just for scouting the Protoss base, but also for hunting probes on the map looking to place proxies. Rather than just asking for changes perhaps people should put more time into looking for solutions to problems, people like Avilo will always find something to complain about, regardless of general trends and win-rates rather than trying to find solutions.
On May 04 2013 02:06 absoluteX wrote: personally i think msc is too versatile for its cost, a 100/100 190 health flying unit with decent ground dps that can pull a slow field, mass recall and a nexus cannon with 13 range, big dps thats hits both air and ground and lasts 1min? idk.
i know pvp was is in a bad state and it was really needed but yeah i think atm it's a bit excessive in tvp. drops? banshees? any sort of early aggression? the cannon can fend it off in no time. almost all kind of aggression is deflected pre 10. and it can be casted twice in a row with banked energy.
The MSC itself loses to 2 marines... How is that decent DPS. The energy cost for each spell means that you can't do all three of those things at once, or even close. You can do 2 of them if the MSC has been on the field for several minutes.
I agree with a lot of what the OP says, and don't think this issue has been addressed sufficiently by anyone really.
In my experience Protoss is unattackable (for any real damage) in the early game because of MSC unless he does something really stupid like fly it into your base and lose it for nothing. Terran gets a tiny window where they have potential to do damage to the Protoss. Once medivacs are out it is possible to gain an advantage over the next few minutes, however as soon as the Protoss secures a third and gets both templar and collosus up the game swings back into his favor again.
No good Protoss will ever be behind on upgrades lategame (because of cronoboost). And they're typical lategame composition is exponentially harder to deal with than Terran's. In WoL this was acceptable because the early-midgame period had agressive options for Terran (as well as Protoss mind you) that made it much more difficult to reach a lategame where Protoss was capable of fielding a deathball. In HotS however the problem is that the window for Terran to do damage is short and on a razor's edge.
Basically Protoss now have the early AND lategame advantage in the matchup, it feels like Terran can only consistantly win with perfect execution of the medivac timing/third denial.
On May 04 2013 02:34 Soldier92 wrote: I agree with a lot of what the OP says, and don't think this issue has been addressed sufficiently by anyone really.
In my experience Protoss is unattackable (for any real damage) in the early game because of MSC unless he does something really stupid like fly it into your base and lose it for nothing. Terran gets a tiny window where they have potential to do damage to the Protoss. Once medivacs are out it is possible to gain an advantage over the next few minutes, however as soon as the Protoss secures a third and gets both templar and collosus up the game swings back into his favor again.
No good Protoss will ever be behind on upgrades lategame (because of cronoboost). And they're typical lategame composition is exponentially harder to deal with than Terran's. In WoL this was acceptable because the early-midgame period had agressive options for Terran (as well as Protoss mind you) that made it much more difficult to reach a lategame where Protoss was capable of fielding a deathball. In HotS however the problem is that the window for Terran to do damage is short and on a razor's edge.
Basically Protoss now have the early AND lategame advantage in the matchup, it feels like Terran can only consistantly win with perfect execution of the medivac timing/third denial.
This is why we have maps like whirlwind, except people arent happy with it and want to give more power to terran in early game without considering how impossible hilarious it is to hold a 3rd on whirlwind UNLESS the protoss has the advantage in upgrades/tech.
I just checked map stats and tvz on star station is 70% lol I wonder when they will force cross positions on that map =D
Actually with a deeper thought, don't you guys feel that the msc is the key unit in TvP for both sides? If terran kills the msc, the toss gets vulnerable, if toss protects the msc well, toss gets the upper hand aggression. Im struggling too with early toss, but each time i manage to kill the msc and push in, it works out quite well and easier. Thus to all terrans out there, shoot it down!
TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
Thats a bit to harsh. Yes the MSC is strong, maybe a bit too strong but with speedmedivacs you still have options. Allins are always an issue as seen with Naniwa yesterday as shuttle scouted it but couldnt do anything because of his opening.
As a Terran you just need to be the better player like a league above or something like that but thats nothing new.
I don't get how speedvacs are the cure to an early-midgame MSC...
On May 04 2013 02:42 FSTitanium wrote: Actually with a deeper thought, don't you guys feel that the msc is the key unit in TvP for both sides? If terran kills the msc, the toss gets vulnerable, if toss protects the msc well, toss gets the upper hand aggression. Im struggling too with early toss, but each time i manage to kill the msc and push in, it works out quite well and easier. Thus to all terrans out there, shoot it down!
Toss have realized this, nobody puts the MSC in a position where it can be lost before photon charged is used.
TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
Thats a bit to harsh. Yes the MSC is strong, maybe a bit too strong but with speedmedivacs you still have options. Allins are always an issue as seen with Naniwa yesterday as shuttle scouted it but couldnt do anything because of his opening.
As a Terran you just need to be the better player like a league above or something like that but thats nothing new.
I don't get how speedvacs are the cure to an early-midgame MSC...
Exactly, Terran shouldn't have to wait for medivacs EVERY GAME to have any chance to do damage. Protoss knows the timing of medivacs, they're ready for them, they know they're coming. We need options for alternate agression, having only one possible way to put on pressure is no fun, and is getting harder and harder to accomplish as Toss players learn the maps and the vulnerabilities.
This is why we have maps like whirlwind, except people arent happy with it and want to give more power to terran in early game without considering how impossible hilarious it is to hold a 3rd on whirlwind UNLESS the protoss has the advantage in upgrades/tech.
I just checked map stats and tvz on star station is 70% lol I wonder when they will force cross positions on that map =D
I don't know why you're referencing TvZ winrates in a thread about TvP. And secondly, winrates are not the problem, the problem is with the design of the matchup, it's stale, has been since WoL, and should be addressed.
I mainly felt surprised when the MsC was introduced first. Blizzard clearly stated they wanted to get rid of mothership (as a good choice in a competitive game) because it was a hero-unit, so what did they do? They introduced the MsC which is a hero unit you have to get early in the game as toss.
On May 04 2013 02:34 Soldier92 wrote: I agree with a lot of what the OP says, and don't think this issue has been addressed sufficiently by anyone really.
In my experience Protoss is unattackable (for any real damage) in the early game because of MSC unless he does something really stupid like fly it into your base and lose it for nothing. Terran gets a tiny window where they have potential to do damage to the Protoss. Once medivacs are out it is possible to gain an advantage over the next few minutes, however as soon as the Protoss secures a third and gets both templar and collosus up the game swings back into his favor again.
No good Protoss will ever be behind on upgrades lategame (because of cronoboost). And they're typical lategame composition is exponentially harder to deal with than Terran's. In WoL this was acceptable because the early-midgame period had agressive options for Terran (as well as Protoss mind you) that made it much more difficult to reach a lategame where Protoss was capable of fielding a deathball. In HotS however the problem is that the window for Terran to do damage is short and on a razor's edge.
Basically Protoss now have the early AND lategame advantage in the matchup, it feels like Terran can only consistantly win with perfect execution of the medivac timing/third denial.
This is why we have maps like whirlwind, except people arent happy with it and want to give more power to terran in early game without considering how impossible hilarious it is to hold a 3rd on whirlwind UNLESS the protoss has the advantage in upgrades/tech.
I just checked map stats and tvz on star station is 70% lol I wonder when they will force cross positions on that map =D
Its really unfair that you keep using math and examples of real professional players in these arguments. Also, Whilwind is the devil against terran.
On May 04 2013 02:25 peidongyang wrote: That or the complaining in this thread gets to blizzard and we get 1/1/1 for another half a year.
Please. 1-1-1 was already virtually dead at the end of the WoL; sure it could still win games from time to time, even at pro level, but the best ways to defend it were known and Protoss would only lose when having bad engagements or losing too many Probes to whatever harass Terran was doing before (Hellion drop or Cloak Banshees).
It actually took a while for the immortal range to get buffed in response to the 1/1/1. EG Puma made his career off of it.
On May 04 2013 02:25 peidongyang wrote: That or the complaining in this thread gets to blizzard and we get 1/1/1 for another half a year.
Please. 1-1-1 was already virtually dead at the end of the WoL; sure it could still win games from time to time, even at pro level, but the best ways to defend it were known and Protoss would only lose when having bad engagements or losing too many Probes to whatever harass Terran was doing before (Hellion drop or Cloak Banshees).
It actually took a while for the immortal range to get buffed in response to the 1/1/1. EG Puma made his career off of it.
And the range buff did not change the world of 1/1/1, but only made the immortal less stupid. That build was still bad ass for months after that change, until protoss figured out how to see it coming a mile off.
Protoss knows the timing of medivacs, they're ready for them, they know they're coming. We need options for alternate agression, having only one possible way to put on pressure is no fun, and is getting harder and harder to accomplish as Toss players learn the maps and the vulnerabilities.
I don't really agree with this. You have extremely cheap and cost-efficient units, fast medivacs, and some of the best harass/probe-killing units in the game (widow mine or hellbat or hellion or even a simple marine drop can kill a dozen probes in seconds).
I just watched a PvT on Tod's stream and he spent so much money and gas getting up senties, stalkers, and a couple zealots, and he lost to a simple 9 minute marine push. I think terrans underestimate how hard it is to hold against drops, multi-prong attacks, and early pushes. They just assume that FF and MSC can hold off everything, but they don't mention how efficiently marines trade with expensive gateaway units before high-tech expensive splash units are out.
Either way I don't really think the phrase "alternate pressure" makes sense. There is pressure, and there is pressure. You can choose when and how to do the pressure. and terrans have plenty of options.
On May 04 2013 02:25 peidongyang wrote: That or the complaining in this thread gets to blizzard and we get 1/1/1 for another half a year.
Please. 1-1-1 was already virtually dead at the end of the WoL; sure it could still win games from time to time, even at pro level, but the best ways to defend it were known and Protoss would only lose when having bad engagements or losing too many Probes to whatever harass Terran was doing before (Hellion drop or Cloak Banshees).
It actually took a while for the immortal range to get buffed in response to the 1/1/1. EG Puma made his career off of it.
And the range buff did not change the world of 1/1/1, but only made the immortal less stupid. That build was still bad ass for months after that change, until protoss figured out how to see it coming a mile off.
Even then there were abusive metagamey strats that aren't possible now because toss scouting is damn good. The biggest change was in map design and map size. Well that and people finally got it through their heads to make zealots.
Masters random player here, 1.2k on NA . I agree quite a bit with the OP although do not agree that the matchup is becoming one sided because of protoss's new opportunities. I dont care if i die to protoss cheese. Missile turrets are good vs void all ins, oracles, dts, the rest you can stop with just marines and bunker.As a protoss, all ins are harder to execute than they seem unless it's a build order win or w/e. I said i agreed with this post because i play a very aggressive style and when i roll TvP or ZvP the photon overcharge seems to let protoss power so hard that they can get to the "i have cannons everywhere and am not dropppable + am taking a 4th base" moment a lot faster.
Old TvP, you had a few options, like, 2rax to trade units and slowdown his deathball/make him remake sentries. You had a 10 min 2 medivac timing to pressure his early 3rd if its done yet or drop him and contain him to slow down his 3rd as well as buy yourself time against stalker / collosus all ins. You had banshee into 3CC tank marine and double upgrades, there was a load of variety. Now, i feel that if i gasless fe, i spend hundreds of minerals being safe against even just standard play. on some maps the 2 stalker + msc poke is always damaging, even if you have a bunker up becuase they can target stuff your ramp still. Between ebay, turrets, actually producing off of my structures, i find it hard to find money to throw down a second bunker vs P and actually have enough units to punish greedy from protoss. I feel like if i don't open reaper, and know exactly whats going on, my blind preparations for protoss attacks, trying to take everything into consideration puts me so unbelliveably behind standard play it will even feel unwinnable before we battle sometimes. I feel like if i dont go factory after reaper, i will die to every single timing in the book invovlving more than just light harass, ESP: 2 immortal push + the double timewarp.
This sounds whiny i am sorry, i have 70% + win in both TvP and PvT, i get the matchup really well, i just dont play players enough who are cuttroat enough to go oracle into 3gate voids because its map X or whatever, and that shit is very good there. protoss are not all inning nearly as much as they should be on ladder, as race they are so strong early game and the maps are prtty bad for them in some circumstances. I'm just amazed people aren't 1 basing every game yet in this matchup since you can't really scout what it is and prepare for everything he could possibly do in a way that doesn't gimp you in the midgame. Nice post OP, i dont think changes should be made yet however. I really would like for the reaper to be changed again however, maybe to cost only minerals, but have no attack. It's crucial in this matchuup to scout, but i have to take a gas so early it weakens me to 1-2 base GW or immortal timings. not sure.
I would suggest to play some protoss on KR server at above diamond level and you'll certainly encounter a lot of terran builds that are more than capable of killing protoss by 10 minute mark.
I feel like there are still things Terran can do to wound Protoss early - but it's more incremental damage, rather than game-ending damage. I mean medivacs were difficult for toss to defend before the speed boost. Polt, for instance, had success in PvT largely through reaper into mine drop in the king of the beta tourney.
Maybe that's awful now - but medivacs remain powerful at all junctures of the game.
And need I point out the abysmal protoss representation in Code S right now. If protoss's early game is so good, why are so many pros not succeeding with it?
On May 04 2013 03:51 Treehead wrote: I feel like there are still things Terran can do to wound Protoss early - but it's more incremental damage, rather than game-ending damage. I mean medivacs were difficult for toss to defend before the speed boost. Polt, for instance, had success in PvT largely through reaper into mine drop in the king of the beta tourney.
Maybe that's awful now - but medivacs remain powerful at all junctures of the game.
And need I point out the abysmal protoss representation in Code S right now. If protoss's early game is so good, why are so many pros not succeeding with it?
Not that it matters, but I play Terran.
protoss is low in gsl representation because of the history of the league with so many T/Z. You cant just show up into the league, you have to be a part of it for a while and advance. If you look at the SPL rosters, they send out protoss constantly. Representation is fine for everywhere but the GSL which is a legacy system and will take longer to match the reality of our metagame
mines are light, take extra dmg from oracles, phoenixes, have 90HP so can be killed by a probe surround. if the mine tries to burrow near a photon cannon, it will take 16 dps for 3 seconds, then become burrowed. This is 54 damage already in the two seconds it then take to find a target and launch the missile, it will take 32 more damage. this is 86 damage, so if any other unit, or antyhing that can deal 4 damage in a span of 5 seconds (photon overcharge?) , is there to assist you, will take zero damage from the mines. Pretty much man, you're either rushing hellbats to drop with and hoping he doesn't have cannons/cant target the Photon overcharge on the medivacs, or yo'ure playing standard. mines are really bad against protoss. hell bats are the only good harass, also can be shut down by phoenix, tae bonus dmg from oracles. A phoenix shooting a lifted maraduer will do 9 dps. a phoenix shooting a lifted mine will do 18 dps. That's 180 damage over the course of a graviton beam, They will also do that dps to hellbat drops.
I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most.
Longer games of PvT have a very predictable progression. Protoss will open with either HT or colo tech, usually colossi. If this doesn't decide the game they switch to HTs once Terran starts countering the colossi. If the tech switch doesn't decide the game and Terran has too many ghosts to make storm unreliable, Protoss then takes their HTs and surplus gas and makes a bunch of Archons to try and end the game. If Protoss doesn't win here before the Terran's ghost count gets high enough that they can start mass-EMPing archons away, Protoss just loses, 9 times out of 10.
When the bulk of your army is marines and marauders, storm is a huge problem. Marauders with 125 HP don't get annihilated by storm, but they can't kill zealots. Marines can kill the zealots but they just evaporate if Protoss gets even one or two storms off. When you have 20 ghosts, you don't care about HTs. You can spam EMP/Snipe them down and with micro the 100 HP Ghosts can survive several storms even if you mess this up. In addition, unlike Marauders, Ghosts massacre Zealots. In fact, they hard counter all Protoss units except Colossi if you have enough of them.
Terran has the weakest rate of production which means it has to rely on fewer units than the other races to defend or attack or risk falling behind greatly behind in economy/upgrades.
The strength of queens and mothership core just highlights the unique weakness that terran faces.
On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most.
Longer games of PvT have a very predictable progression. Protoss will open with either HT or colo tech, usually colossi. If this doesn't decide the game they switch to HTs once Terran starts countering the colossi. If the tech switch doesn't decide the game and Terran has too many ghosts to make storm unreliable, Protoss then takes their HTs and surplus gas and makes a bunch of Archons to try and end the game. If Protoss doesn't win here before the Terran's ghost count gets high enough that they can start mass-EMPing archons away, Protoss just loses, 9 times out of 10.
When the bulk of your army is marines and marauders, storm is a huge problem. Marauders with 125 HP don't get annihilated by storm, but they can't kill zealots. Marines can kill the zealots but they just evaporate if Protoss gets even one or two storms off. When you have 20 ghosts, you don't care about HTs. You can spam EMP/Snipe them down and with micro the 100 HP Ghosts can survive several storms even if you mess this up. In addition, unlike Marauders, Ghosts massacre Zealots. In fact, they hard counter all Protoss units except Colossi if you have enough of them.
no idea how you have this opinion unless you play only protoss i have played both sides, and protoss is at a tremendous, automatic advantage in longer games
what happens when T wins a huge batle, only a few ghosts left over (good energy) and vikings
looks like these vikings, and ghosts are going to try to press the advantage, but will get 1a'd by anything protoss warps in. These units just are bad, against everything
what happens when P wins a huge battle, only a few templar left over (good energy) and collosus
extremely different, because the longer the game goes on, the more battles terran cannot lose (if you lose one, it's GG. ask any decent terran), and the more "situations" happen, where you kill off a huge protoss army but can't press forward becuase you're left with this awkward army of a few medivacs, marines, but not enough to really threaten buildings, a few vikings which are horrible against every unit in the game besides what they are designed to counter, ghosts which are horrible against every unit in the game besides casters.
when i play a PvT, lose a battle, warpin all my gas into HT and all minerals into zealots, hold his timing and then am able to take another base, it doesn't feel right. when terran loses a battle, and some ghosts / marines he had made pop out, it's not nearly the same impact, and he can't survive.maybe try watching your replays if you are still confused as to why terrans hate late game,
Uhm, I hate to tell you this, but Ghosts are cost-effective (to say nothing about supply-effective) against every Protoss unit except Zealots and Colossi, and they become cost-effective against Zealots if you have enough of them. (The same way Stalkers become cost-effective against Zerglings if you have enough, by exploiting the ranged vs. melee advantage)
Yeah, if you win a big fight with 50 supply left over you can't press. But you should be winning with at least two thirds of your army left if you go into the fight with 20+ vikings and ghosts. Their colossi will die in seconds, no storms will go off, and archons will pop to EMP spam before they even get in range to attack once. You think their zealots and stalkers are going to do much to your mass ranged super DPS bio?
Late, late game PvT involves Protoss sitting behind a bunch of Photon Cannons hoping Terran fucks up and exposes their vikings to storm or a well-timed blink. They cannot fight Terran in the open because the vikings kill the colo and the ghosts kill everything else.
Yesterday.Naniwa vs Shuttle Game 1. 2 Rax proxy+bunker vs 1gate Expansion.MScore+2 stalkers and sentry defend it losing 5 probes and not losing the nexus...If MVP would play vs Squirtle in the GSL with HotS online,he would have only 3 GSL now and Squirtle would have defended this soooo easy...
I was going crazy in the BETA trying to guess what allin is the P going to do changing my BO so many times.Finally the best is the reaper or reactor 1-1-1 NOT Expand with COMPLETED ebay to be able to build turrets before 4:50 and defend the OP oracles.DTs are pretty annoying as well and I was forced to build my CC in may main and put a turret even in my ramp behind a bunker completing the wall of depots.I know its hard to realise you should spend 125+100+100 to build 2 turrets and am ebay,but finally find it better than wasting a scan(300) to be able to kill the DTs in my ramp or in my mineral line.That said if he is going for blink stalkers you barely defend building TANKS having almost useless starport(medivacs are armored and are focuced so easy by stalkers) and got your exapansion delayed till 8-9 mins,while the Protoss is expanding after 4gate blink stalker. This is not the best.After failed Proxy Oracle,they can go 3-4 Oracles+3-4 gate all in or even Void RAys 3-4 gate all in and bust your 2-3 bunkers in your expansion. That said in my Platinum League, I find it very hard to do early game damage to either P or Z.If T can have the PF for the cost of scan,maybe it wuld be much better.I would do love too to be able to build Turrets that DETECT,shoot AIR and even GROUND as Cannons do.
On May 04 2013 04:26 Xequecal wrote: Uhm, I hate to tell you this, but Ghosts are cost-effective (to say nothing about supply-effective) against every Protoss unit except Zealots and Colossi, and they become cost-effective against Zealots if you have enough of them. (The same way Stalkers become cost-effective against Zerglings if you have enough, by exploiting the ranged vs. melee advantage)
Yeah, if you win a big fight with 50 supply left over you can't press. But you should be winning with at least two thirds of your army left if you go into the fight with 20+ vikings and ghosts. Their colossi will die in seconds, no storms will go off, and archons will pop to EMP spam before they even get in range to attack once. You think their zealots and stalkers are going to do much to your mass ranged super DPS bio?
Late, late game PvT involves Protoss sitting behind a bunch of Photon Cannons hoping Terran fucks up and exposes their vikings to storm or a well-timed blink. They cannot fight Terran in the open because the vikings kill the colo and the ghosts kill everything else.
please support this with a replay of a Professional game where a protoss did not get a single storm/archon hit or collosus volley off. This may have happened pre ghost nerf in 2011 and when protoss didnt control HTs and Collosus with competency like they do now...but I've really not seen any giant equal army/upgrades/tech fights where terran just rolls over the protoss in some time, especially in a Late late game scenario. There might be a few when terrans press an advantage and land some emps in that transition from collosus to HT where htey may have 3-4 storms max ( I'm thinking of Innovation Parting in Proleague on Whirlwind where Innovation anticipates partings flanking and always sniped them..even though he ate a few storms parting ran out and Innnovation narrowly won the fight..one more good storm probably would have changed that result..but Innovation is a god.)
On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most.
Except on March the 12th, Blizzard released HotS, which includes the Tempest, and Tempests/Colossi/Stalkers/HTs/Cannons kills anything in lategame PvT. Anything. Mech, bio (mass Ghosts/Vikings), Battlecruisers, any mix. Anything. See Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S and Happy vs HasuObs, Daybreak, WCS Europe. Mass Ghosts/Vikings no longer works if Protoss' resources/position in the game allow him to head for the Tempest transition (i. e. not a full switch, just including a few Tempests to his already pre-existent army).
Why are Terrans, historically the race that has dominated this game the longest, always allowed to make posts like these?
You guys have had the best success since WOL beta, yet constantly make balance posts like these that are allowed to just stay open, i dont get it, considering the stance on balance complaints. Yet it appears, that if a balance complaint is in a large enough body of text, TL allows it, why??
As to the op. ASYMMETRICAL has been mentioned multiple times, and it needs mentioning again. There is no reason to complain that you can't win in the first 6 minutes. Why would the developers want you to be able to win so quickly so easily? I laugh at the fact that you really want to complain about your lack of being able to scout information, when protoss is historically the worse race at scouting, especially early game, where your complaints are all coming from.
A balance whine is still a balance whine no matter how many words you put into the op. All i can see is 'why can't i 1/1/1 anymore for free wins'. The fact that terran players are trying to say we are unbeatable mid and lategame as well is just funny.
Please let the game play out. Learn to burn energy on the MSC like zergs force sentries to burn energy. New game is gonna need new playstyles/strats. Were not there yet, and the point we are at shows almost perfect balance sub pro levels. Yes alot of the units are ridiculously strong, but that doesn't break the game. Oracle is as op as Turbovaks/Mines are .We are all OP now. Get used to it.
Edit: Too many posts like the above user. No, we dont beat any comp.. Ghost/Viking still works wonders. Dont cherry pick certain series and try to call imbalance. Esp happy vs hasuobs. Happy threw that game, he had a great position but didn't know how to close it out, and just wasted thousands of resources nuking nothing worthwhile, when he could have been dropping a nuke on every single base simultaneously. And its been noted t hat flash didn't play that series well either .Also best PVT player in the world. Argument = Invalid. Discussions are pointless if you terran players just have the mindset 'you are unbeatable at ever level of the game', which alot of you seem to have. Yet in my experience, esp once you hit masters, TvP is hard as fuck to play from the protoss position, even lategame now. See, we have different opinions. Doesn't make our claims true or false, just makes them opinions. We can have this discussion without constant balance whining
Late game micro TvP is still unworldly hell for me, and I'm in high masters. In wings I did a lot of early timings to just avoid that situation all together. The photon overcharge has killed nearly every Terran early aggression--> 2 rax, expo into 4-5 rax, 1/1/1. Widow mines aren't nearly as good as they were in the first few weeks as Protoss have learned to defend against them, while 6 marines and 12 scvs will die absurdly fast to 2 oracles...
Also, because Toss can be so greedy, things like dt drop or stargate openings, which were risky in wings, are not risky at all now.
Medivacs are very strong, and hellbats are underused atm, but even taking balance aside, the fact that one race can't all in (or even early pressure) the other while the other has multiple very strong all ins does not make for fun gameplay. That's how TvZ was in wings after the queen buff and it made for very stale and unremarkable gameplay.
On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most.
Except on March the 12th, Blizzard released HotS, which includes the Tempest, and Tempests/Colossi/Stalkers/HTs/Cannons kills anything in lategame PvT. Anything. Mech, bio (mass Ghosts/Vikings), Battlecruisers, any mix. Anything. See Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S and Happy vs HasuObs, Daybreak, WCS Europe. Mass Ghosts/Vikings no longer works if Protoss' resources/position in the game allow him to head for the Tempest transition (i. e. not a full switch, just including a few Tempests to his already pre-existent army).
Flash had 70+ SCVs and way too many Medivacs. Not trying to debate this because I don't really have an opinion about lategame PvT, but Flash made some mistakes.
On May 04 2013 04:12 Xequecal wrote: I really don't understand why Terran fears the late game so much. There is a period in the "late game" when it's 3 bases against 3 or 4 bases when Protoss is tech switching and it's hard for Terran to balance vikings and ghosts correctly, but after this period Terran is completely and utterly dominant. People here are talking about "4 bases " and "5 bases." If it's 5 bases to 5 bases, Terran has basically won the game. Once you are 200/200 maxed with sufficient vikings to one-round colossi and sufficient ghosts to spam-EMP down all archons on sight instantly, Protoss is just dead. There's nothing they can possibly make, you'll steamroll their entire army easily losing 50 supply at most.
Except on March the 12th, Blizzard released HotS, which includes the Tempest, and Tempests/Colossi/Stalkers/HTs/Cannons kills anything in lategame PvT. Anything. Mech, bio (mass Ghosts/Vikings), Battlecruisers, any mix. Anything. See Flash vs PartinG, Daybreak, Code S and Happy vs HasuObs, Daybreak, WCS Europe. Mass Ghosts/Vikings no longer works if Protoss' resources/position in the game allow him to head for the Tempest transition (i. e. not a full switch, just including a few Tempests to his already pre-existent army).
Flash had 70+ SCVs and way too many Medivacs. Not trying to debate this because I don't really have an opinion about lategame PvT, but Flash made some mistakes.
I didn't say Flash or Happy played perfectly. No one plays perfectly. But the point is, their lategame transitions were trashed despite them being ahead earlier in the game. You can also say that Flash had no Yamato, but I doubt it would have changed the outcome.
You terrans aren't supposed to be winning with those early aggressions. Your just burning our energy, which is good. Poke once or twice to keep the energy down, so that your midgame turbovak usage is even more op. Dont let us build energy so that we can defend your drops so easily. Flash for instance, you can see alot of his pushes are designed just to make the toss use the photon charge, then he turns arounds and leaves. You force us to use that early, and our midgame defense gets weaker.
Your aggression isn't meant to win anymore. Blizzard doesn't want TvP to just be Terran alling Toss and the MU solely relying on how well Toss defends. This isn't wings.
But what im saying is, dont be discouraged that we hold those early pushes off. Those early pushes are meant to burns msc energy, and they succeed, boosting your midgame even more. Just because you dont kill us or workers doesn't mean you aren't hurting us in some way when you do that.
On May 04 2013 04:54 renaissanceMAN wrote: I'm surprised this thread has been open this long
it shouldn't be, but TL has a habit of leaving balance complaints open when its: a. a terran making it b. the post is a wall of text
mostly b applies, its like if they put enough words in their balance complaint, the mods give it time to see how it plays out this one has been played out though, there is no discussion, just terran tears
1. Protoss is not "safe" early game against Terran at all. You're claiming that Protoss players can play greedy just because of the Nexus cannon, which is absolutely not true. Yes, the Nexus cannon buys time for Protoss players to build up units once they spot aggression, but the Nexus cannon is limited. You can only use it twice and it's easily baited, if you were an intelligent Terran you would send a Medivac to bait both Nexus cannons and then macro units behind it.
2. What do you mean by
On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: The reverse is simply not true. If the Terran player is unable to scout early aggression from the Protoss player there many situations where he simply dies. The frustration however does come from one specific front, but from the multiple different ways a Terran needs to defend. Couple that with the extreme difficulty Terran has in properly scouting and figuring out what Protoss is doing. The final nail in the coffin is all the different ways a Terran needs to prepare for the various all ins a Protoss can do. Most of them require very specific setups to defend and being safe against something is hard enough even with perfect information. The case here? Polt scouting grubby's proxy oracle twice and both times being unable to defend the oncoming attacks. Then there the greedy Protoss. If the Protoss just simply goes for extremely fast upgrades and either fast Colossus or even more scary very fast upgrades and templar the Terran player can be in a world of trouble."
Terran has scans and reapers, isn't that enough? Protoss can't deny scans and reapers can easily slip through defenses. You're telling me just because Terran players refuse to give up on their greed (MULES) it is the Protoss's fault that they can get away with faster upgrades? Not to mention how in situations a +2 Protoss army could still easily lose to a +1 stim Terran army; thus, going for fast upgrades is just Protoss's way of trying to keep up with Terran.
3.
On May 03 2013 19:29 Filter wrote: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend.
Absolutely untrue, and based on nothing. Protoss vs Terran always comes down to scouting and map awareness. In the mid-late game if Protoss is caught by a drop or a stim-runby its basically over. The core just helps Protoss with mobility and that's it. The Nexus cannon in that case only buys time for Protoss and plus, unlike the Planetary Command the Nexus only hits 1 unit. You want to talk about safe? Planetary has no restriction, you can repair it, it hits AoE. So why doesn't Terran make that? Oh yeah, cause all Terrans are greedy pigs and just want Orbitals for their bases. Make sense? No it doesn't because SC2 is a game of who comes out on top, every player takes the greedier route, and frankly Terrans are the greediest with their MULEs and in-base expansions.
TL:DR, you're agruments are flawed and solely based on 1 game, and what you misjudged in DreamHack. There's no denying that going for a T3 tech seems greedy along with upgrades, but look at it this way. Terran can take a 3rd while getting upgrades and still pump units, while Protoss has to sit on 2 base to do that, if they try to take a 3rd and gets spotted it's basically asking for multiprone drops.
On May 04 2013 04:54 ohampatu wrote: Your aggression isn't meant to win anymore. Blizzard doesn't want TvP to just be Terran alling Toss and the MU solely relying on how well Toss defends. This isn't wings.
Pity the standard in TvP high level against Colossi is 3-bases all-ins with SCV pulls then.
Protoss are safer when taking their second base than in WOL, but less safe when taking their third. It's fairly well balanced, although maybe not good game design.
On May 04 2013 04:47 ohampatu wrote: Why are Terrans, historically the race that has dominated this game the longest, always allowed to make posts like these?
You guys have had the best success since WOL beta, yet constantly make balance posts like these that are allowed to just stay open, i dont get it, considering the stance on balance complaints. Yet it appears, that if a balance complaint is in a large enough body of text, TL allows it, why??
As to the op. ASYMMETRICAL has been mentioned multiple times, and it needs mentioning again. There is no reason to complain that you can't win in the first 6 minutes. Why would the developers want you to be able to win so quickly so easily? I laugh at the fact that you really want to complain about your lack of being able to scout information, when protoss is historically the worse race at scouting, especially early game, where your complaints are all coming from.
A balance whine is still a balance whine no matter how many words you put into the op. All i can see is 'why can't i 1/1/1 anymore for free wins'. The fact that terran players are trying to say we are unbeatable mid and lategame as well is just funny.
Please let the game play out. Learn to burn energy on the MSC like zergs force sentries to burn energy. New game is gonna need new playstyles/strats. Were not there yet, and the point we are at shows almost perfect balance sub pro levels. Yes alot of the units are ridiculously strong, but that doesn't break the game. Oracle is as op as Turbovaks/Mines are .We are all OP now. Get used to it.
Edit: Too many posts like the above user. No, we dont beat any comp.. Ghost/Viking still works wonders. Dont cherry pick certain series and try to call imbalance. Esp happy vs hasuobs. Happy threw that game, he had a great position but didn't know how to close it out, and just wasted thousands of resources nuking nothing worthwhile, when he could have been dropping a nuke on every single base simultaneously. And its been noted t hat flash didn't play that series well either .Also best PVT player in the world. Argument = Invalid. Discussions are pointless if you terran players just have the mindset 'you are unbeatable at ever level of the game', which alot of you seem to have. Yet in my experience, esp once you hit masters, TvP is hard as fuck to play from the protoss position, even lategame now. See, we have different opinions. Doesn't make our claims true or false, just makes them opinions. We can have this discussion without constant balance whining
WoL GSL Champions: 3 Titles for Protoss(2 MC and 1 Seed); 7 Titles for Terran(4 MVP, 1 Polt, 1 MMA, 1 Jjakji) 8 Titles for Zerg (3 Nestea, 1 Fruitdealer, 1 DongRaeGu,1 Life, 1 Sniper,1 Roro, 1)
The Zerg Championships almost all in the last year of the Game and we got 2 ZvZ finals in row.Yes.Terran has been the absolut dominator of WoL... Come on...
"TLDR: Protoss can easily play safe/catch all against Terran, Terran can not play safe/catch all against Protoss. Protoss has multiple options to be aggressive against Terran, Terran has no aggressive options against Protoss. Protoss can play safely with zero scouting information, Terran needs full scouting information to defend." 1. It honestly sounds to me like you're just frustrated in the matchup, because none of these statements are true, particularly the bolded ones (huehue). 2. What's that? A race has an advantage in a stage of the game? Better patch that shit so that people don't have to work as hard to figure it out, learn timings, scout their opponent properly and for proxies.
On May 04 2013 04:42 Irre wrote: please support this with a replay of a Professional game where a protoss did not get a single storm/archon hit or collosus volley off. This may have happened pre ghost nerf in 2011 and when protoss didnt control HTs and Collosus with competency like they do now...but I've really not seen any giant equal army/upgrades/tech fights where terran just rolls over the protoss in some time, especially in a Late late game scenario. There might be a few when terrans press an advantage and land some emps in that transition from collosus to HT where htey may have 3-4 storms max ( I'm thinking of Innovation Parting in Proleague on Whirlwind where Innovation anticipates partings flanking and always sniped them..even though he ate a few storms parting ran out and Innnovation narrowly won the fight..one more good storm probably would have changed that result..but Innovation is a god.)
Here's one from like 5 hours ago. Protoss even decisively wins a major fight in the "late" game at the 20-minute mark but Terran at that point simply has too many ghosts, and nothing Protoss does really matters anymore. The final fight at the nexus at 3:00 is a perfect example, the armies are matched in supply at the beginning but mass-EMP and snipe prevents the Protoss army from doing anything and Terran rolls him losing next to nothing. Protoss actually gets many storms off but they never kill anything, the Ghost blob eats several head-on storms but 100 HP means nothing dies and they just get healed back to full very quickly.
On May 04 2013 04:56 MaestroSC wrote: #1 Race in SC2 both in HotS and in WoL...and we still get balance threads discussing how underpowered they are...?
The bigger issue imo is why are Terrans allowed to make balance complaints on TL if they put enough words into the OP. That used to be such a big nono on TL, yet TL is getting less and less strict about it and maybe its just how it seems, but it really seems the Terran posts are the ones that get allowed to remain open. I got to this thread late, and tried reading from the beginning, but every other post literally says 'terran can't ever beat toss'
You can't even counter any of the arguments. Every good counter-post has been flamed. Even the op itself doesn't give a good reason of why his complaint is even a valid complaint. Its just something he doesnt' like, since its obvious he wants to be able to 1/1/1 and win. Funny enough, the 1/1/1 works just fine once you learn how to hit multiple areas and bait MSC energy.
I do love terran tears though. Doesn't matter how succesfull they are in SC2, they are always the most to complain and the loudest whilst making those complaints. Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
On May 04 2013 04:56 MaestroSC wrote: #1 Race in SC2 both in HotS and in WoL...and we still get balance threads discussing how underpowered they are...?
The bigger issue imo is why are Terrans allowed to make balance complaints on TL if they put enough words into the OP. That used to be such a big nono on TL, yet TL is getting less and less strict about it and maybe its just how it seems, but it really seems the Terran posts are the ones that get allowed to remain open. I got to this thread late, and tried reading from the beginning, but every other post literally says 'terran can't ever beat toss'
You can't even counter any of the arguments. Every good counter-post has been flamed. Even the op itself doesn't give a good reason of why his complaint is even a valid complaint. Its just something he doesnt' like, since its obvious he wants to be able to 1/1/1 and win. Funny enough, the 1/1/1 works just fine once you learn how to hit multiple areas and bait MSC energy.
I do love terran tears though. Doesn't matter how succesfull they are in SC2, they are always the most to complain and the loudest whilst making those complaints. Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
This is like your 4th post in a row saying the exact same thing dude. . . we get it.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1 (look at OSL/MSL championships).
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two non-Terran GSL champions on his way! The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up almost as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
I'v had the feelings in my games also. I have plqyed dozens of tvp whit my master training buddy and we have discussed about the exact same subject. I mean i need to scout perfectly the proxy sgs, gate pressures , dt drops and the msc zealot stalker opening even eliminates agressive stuff in my play. And even i get the timings right i cant do much if any real damage that i leaned my play on wol. I have tried everything but nothing seemw to work.
On May 04 2013 04:47 ohampatu wrote: Edit: Too many posts like the above user. No, we dont beat any comp.. Ghost/Viking still works wonders. Dont cherry pick certain series and try to call imbalance. Esp happy vs hasuobs. Happy threw that game, he had a great position but didn't know how to close it out, and just wasted thousands of resources nuking nothing worthwhile, when he could have been dropping a nuke on every single base simultaneously. And its been noted t hat flash didn't play that series well either .Also best PVT player in the world. Argument = Invalid. Discussions are pointless if you terran players just have the mindset 'you are unbeatable at ever level of the game', which alot of you seem to have. Yet in my experience, esp once you hit masters, TvP is hard as fuck to play from the protoss position, even lategame now. See, we have different opinions. Doesn't make our claims true or false, just makes them opinions. We can have this discussion without constant balance whining
No, Ghost/Vikings doesn't work anymore unless Terran has some kind of advantage allowing them to complete the Ghosts/Vikings transition and hit before Protoss completes the Tempest transition. It's a matter of phase; if Terran is at a more advanced phase (for instance because of an econ advantage built from the midgame) while Protoss is still "only" on Colossi/HTs then yes, he may win with Ghosts/Vikings. But if the position is even, there is no way you will mass 20+ Ghosts and 20+ Vikings without your opponent building 3+ Stargates and mixing in a few Tempests, which allow him to slowly nibble your position and win fights.
"Didn't know how to close it out" ... Yes, indeed he failed to all-in before lategame. After that, it's too late because Protoss' defensive positions with Cannons and Templars are nigh unbreakable since you can't charge into Protoss concaves + Storms. You can't advance with Nukes since Tempests can pick Ghosts from the safety of 15 range. Also, you're deluded if you think you can sneak 7 Ghosts in the Protoss side on a map like Daybreak, in which 2-3 Cannons at certain locations prevents you from advancing with Cloaked Ghosts.
Your "Flash didn't play that series well either" argument is invalid because (a) I am not talking about the series, only about the Daybreak game; the Star Station one doesn't matter regarding lategame because there was no lategame. And (b) Flash played well enough that he built a lead, tried to transition to lategame with mass Ghosts/Vikings (the composition which is supposed to "work" by lategame according to the Protoss around here) then Battlecruisers and was still defeated. Your PartinG fanboyism is also null; whether he has the best PvT in the world or not irrelevant, and at any rate Flash won him 3:1 at MLG, so it's not like they belong to two different leagues.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
Well at least you got an award for understatement of the week. 'Began to do better', yes, as in completely dominating.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
2 ZvZ GSL finals and 3 Zerg champions in row is not "doing better".This is the ZERG DOMINION!
No, Ghost/Vikings doesn't work anymore unless Terran has some kind of advantage allowing them to complete the Ghosts/Vikings transition and hit before Protoss completes the Tempest transition. It's a matter of phase; if Terran is at a more advanced phase (for instance because of an econ advantage built from the midgame) while Protoss is still "only" on Colossi/HTs then yes, he may win with Ghosts/Vikings. But if the position is even, there is no way you will mass 20+ Ghosts and 20+ Vikings without your opponent building 3+ Stargates and mixing in a few Tempests, which allow him to slowly nibble your position and win fights.
finale charged leading with mass Archons near LucifroN's third, logically got bashed by mass EMPs and was then unable to transition to Tempests because he lacked the economy/time to do it. Notice how he was still trying to do this though.
Look at 2011. How many times did people describe Terran as overpowered? Not nearly as many. Everyone thought Terran players were just skilled!
But then we get half way through 2012, and people are up in arms about how crazy and overpowered Zerg is... why?
Because it wasn't the norm! So we are talking about 2 years of domination versus 6 months of domination. Terrans had more spots in Code S until GSL Season 1 in 2013.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April. Before that, there was another stretch over a year without any foreign Terran in the finals of a premier tournament (Thorzain in TSL 3). This is compared to MANY Protoss and Zerg foreigners reaching the finals of premier tournaments during the same stretch.
Look at 2011. How many times did people describe Terran as overpowered? Not nearly as many. Everyone thought Terran players were just skilled!
But then we get half way through 2012, and people are up in arms about how crazy and overpowered Zerg is... why?
Because it wasn't the norm!
Sorry but that is just not true. It was one big whine fest about terran, which also created the climate which allowed terran to get overnerfed in WoL. Especially because the result was that a few korean terrans could keep up with very good micro, and the more average players had a large problem. Every patch was new nerfs for terran, including quite bad ones. Such as putting thor energy back pretty much immediatly after removing it without actually looking if that was required. Or the snipe nerf, which simply made no sense (ooh snipe is too strong vs broodlords and ultras. Lets nerf it against everything).
And while before that every patch was a new nerf to terran, zerg was left untouched.
Edit: Anyway I don't see how this is really relevant. Imo this topic is also a perfectly viable complaint. I am NOT saying protoss is too strong, but I do agree that toss has alot of all-ins, and are themselves imo too all-in resistent simply with their planetary nexus. So I am definately not in favor of just nerfing toss, but I don't think a rebalance is a bad idea.
On May 04 2013 04:56 MaestroSC wrote: #1 Race in SC2 both in HotS and in WoL...and we still get balance threads discussing how underpowered they are...?
The bigger issue imo is why are Terrans allowed to make balance complaints on TL if they put enough words into the OP. That used to be such a big nono on TL, yet TL is getting less and less strict about it and maybe its just how it seems, but it really seems the Terran posts are the ones that get allowed to remain open. I got to this thread late, and tried reading from the beginning, but every other post literally says 'terran can't ever beat toss'
You can't even counter any of the arguments. Every good counter-post has been flamed. Even the op itself doesn't give a good reason of why his complaint is even a valid complaint. Its just something he doesnt' like, since its obvious he wants to be able to 1/1/1 and win. Funny enough, the 1/1/1 works just fine once you learn how to hit multiple areas and bait MSC energy.
I do love terran tears though. Doesn't matter how succesfull they are in SC2, they are always the most to complain and the loudest whilst making those complaints. Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
so according to you terrans aren't allowed to complain about balance?
A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this:
Since April 2012... when Thorzain won at Dreamhack
MVP won a GSL Championship on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013.
A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this:
MVP won a GSL on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013.
Are you trolling me dude? did you even read what I wrote?
I'm no pro but I think this is balanced by the new medivac. Protoss might get early game advantage (compared to WoL), but once the medivac is out, terran has the means to get even as long as he has the skill. Obviously - some things may still need to be tweaked, but I think that's the general idea.
I think Blizz should wait for longer before changing anything (although i'm not sure about the proxy oracle builds - they look pretty good). It would be bad to nerf protoss just to have to buff it again later when terrans are owning everyone with new medv.
i think its relatively balanced. protoss needs the threat of all-ins and different builds because terran's cookie-cutter build is so good. in the cookie-cutter PvT until they are on 4 base and have 3 stargates for tempest addition to collo/ht (as well as enough minerals for mass cannons + wp harass), terran is better at harassment, fights, and securing/defending resources. and in the cookie cutter PvT protoss needs to be greedy to get to this point, so the increased defense is okay.
that being said, terran being better at fights requires more micro from the terran side, but thats just how the army works. the army is still better, technically -- just harder to use.
On May 04 2013 05:32 BronzeKnee wrote: Not sure if you're serious or trolling...
A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this:
MVP won a GSL on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013.
Are you trolling me dude? did you even read what I wrote?
"A foreign Terran hasn't won
My mistake, I misread what you wrote. Not sure how what you are saying is proving anything though... it is a very odd qualification. You could also pick out the fact that foreign Protosses have won as many premier tournaments as foreign Terrans (7 each, Zerg has 11, and the majority were before the "patch" Zerg era...), but it doesn't really say anything...
Excluding Koreans makes no sense to me for this discussion. The point of what I was saying was to show that in terms of results, Terrans dominated WOL, but since it was the norm, people accepted it. And thus when we look back Jinro and Thorzain's early results aren't darkened by the "release Terran" era the same way the "patch Zerg" era darkened some of the foreigner Zerg results.
On May 04 2013 05:32 BronzeKnee wrote: Not sure if you're serious or trolling...
A foreign Terran hasn't won, or even been in the finals of a premier tournament since Thorzain won Dreamhack Stockholm last April.
Using the exact same link you gave me, I came up with this:
MVP won a GSL on May 19th, 2012 (Season 2 Ended on May 19th). Taeja won the MLG Summer Arena in July 2012. Taeja won the Dreamhack Open in September 2012. MVP won IEM Cologne in August 2012. Taeja won Asus Rog in Augus 2012. Sting won IEM Singapore in November 2012 Yoda won the IEM Championships in March 2013.
Are you trolling me dude? did you even read what I wrote?
"A foreign Terran hasn't won
And a Terran from the U.S. has never won anything. That doesn't mean this statement has balance implications for Terrans playing in the U.S.
It's interesting how quickly people go from "balancing at the highest level" to "balancing at the highest level I think I can achieve" to "just let me win games, k?" A year ago, I'd complain that Protoss had few aggressive options until late game, and Terran had their pick of how to push if they wanted to - but I know what you'd say to that back then. You'd say that people at the top can hold it and if I can't I should focus on getting better and not getting into balance arguments.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
Idra won the king of beta, Fruitdealer won the first Gsl and Nestea won the second GSL and Mc won the 3rd GSL. Your arguing that terran dominated is laughable. It all changed when MVP showed us how to play terran. Just like Life or DRG in his time, these guys dominated because they were the best not because of racial balance.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
Idra won the king of beta, Fruitdealer won the first Gsl and Nestea won the second GSL and Mc won the 3rd GSL. Your arguing that terran dominated is laughable. It all changed when MVP showed us how to play terran. Just like Life or DRG in his time, these guys dominated because they were the best not because of racial balance.
And what race the runner up in all three of the first GSL wins? And who has the most GSL wins... Also look at overall GSL participation...
Open Season 1, 2 and 3 participation combined:
Terran - 74 Protoss - 59 Zerg - 58
All of 2011 (World Championship excluded):
Terran - 223 Protoss - 144 Zerg - 145
All of 2012 (World Championship excluded):
Terran - 125 Protoss - 100 Zerg - 96
Terran also had more players in Code S every season until GSL Season 1 2013.
OP is little more than well written balance whine. You sound frustrated, OP. Maybe practice more, and give it some time to see what strategies arise if these concerns are as bad as you say they are. Whine like this belongs in the balance discussion/whine thread. I don't know why it gets its own thread (perhaps the mods cbf anymore). Unless its because Filter gets to ride the coat-tails of one good training Terran macro training thread he contributed long ago. If so, he's long cashed in.
On May 04 2013 05:04 ohampatu wrote: Even during the sad zealot days, protoss didn't balance whine half as much as terran.
The norm is for Terran to be the strongest race, with 45-50% GSL participation, followed by Zerg, followed by Protoss. This was the norm since SC1.
Anything that deviates from the norm ignites the entire community. The term "patch-Zerg" resulted after balance changes seemed to allow foreign Zergs to defeat Koreans. Nevermind the fact when the game was released Jinro was rolling people in the GSL and Thorzain won the TSL3, defeating two GSL champions on his way. The term "release-Terran" was never used for Jinro and Thorzain though, and most people would be offended by the notion of such, even though their results line up just as clearly as the "patch-Zerg" results.
But because it deviates from the norm, it will be ignored. And so people will whine until the norm has returned.
Foreign Terrans had a 1.5 year stretch where they didn't win a single major tournament, and have performed horrendously vs Koreans in wings compared to foreign Zergs or Protosses. I'm not really crying, just think you should get your facts straight.
When was this? Please show me? Terran dominated WOL in terms of GSL participation, winrates, and major and premier tournament wins. At the end Zerg began to do better, but only for about 6 months.
I really want to know when this 1.5 year stretch was.... I think stretch seemed a lot longer than it did, because Terran did really well since release until the last 6 months of Wings, where Zerg pulled ahead.
Idra won the king of beta, Fruitdealer won the first Gsl and Nestea won the second GSL and Mc won the 3rd GSL. Your arguing that terran dominated is laughable. It all changed when MVP showed us how to play terran. Just like Life or DRG in his time, these guys dominated because they were the best not because of racial balance.
in almost all of those GSL's terrans were overwhelmingly represented though.
Terran early game has always been horrible in TvP with the exception of when the 1-1-1 was popular and successful. Standard games have always been about terran hiding behind their bunkers until stim+medivac is available at which point the Terran tries to gain the upper hand during a 2-3 window when toss is getting all their tech, if terrans damages the toss he can go into the late-game with on close to equal terms, if not he's likely to fall victim to a classic a-move + storm - warp in 30 zealots into GG. In hots terran early game TvP got even more horrible.
It's also amazing how good protoss all-ins are. There is a literal flood of brilliant all-ins available for the protoss. Vs some all-ins you can know that it's coming, have 4-5 bunkers and still lose.
Overall I still think that it's a balanced match-up and I've come to accept the lategame as being very hard for me personally on the occasion when I am the Terran.
On May 04 2013 06:03 ImperialFist wrote: Terran early game has always been horrible in TvP with the exception of when the 1-1-1 was popular and successful. Standard games have always been about terran hiding behind their bunkers until stim+medivac is available at which point the Terran tries to gain the upper hand during a 2-3 window when toss is getting all their tech, if terrans damages the toss he can go into the late-game with on close to equal terms, if not he's likely to fall victim to a classic a-move + storm - warp in 30 zealots into GG. In hots terran early game TvP got even more horrible.
It's also amazing how good protoss all-ins are. There is a literal flood of brilliant all-ins available for the protoss. Vs some all-ins you can know that it's coming, have 4-5 bunkers and still lose.
Overall I still think that it's a balanced match-up and I've come to accept the lategame as being very hard for me personally on the occasion when I am the Terran.
pretty sure terran is more powerful in the late late game, i think you mean protoss is more powerful when armies are approaching max the first time around.
I'm sure it's been said about a billion times in this thread already....but here goes.
Because of nexus cannon, sentry, etc. toss is almost always safe on 1 to 2 bases. This is why you see zerg players for instance not even bother trying to attack the protoss unless they are 100% all in, instead most opt to play greedy with no units until the toss player starts to get near a move out potential.
Maybe the real answer for Terrans is just to play greedy and not aggressively or play passive aggressive. Like threaten to drop at a natural time you get medivacs but don't be over committed to it just cuz you want to drop.
Toss pretty much needs a minimum of 3 bases to actually have a proper army composition they can replenish. So just play greedy and keep tabs on any 1 or 2 base pushes you'd need to defend. Get aggressive when Toss is spread thin between 3 bases.
On May 04 2013 06:09 Nerski wrote: I'm sure it's been said about a billion times in this thread already....but here goes.
Because of nexus cannon, sentry, etc. toss is almost always safe on 1 to 2 bases. This is why you see zerg players for instance not even bother trying to attack the protoss unless they are 100% all in, instead most opt to play greedy with no units until the toss player starts to get near a move out potential.
Maybe the real answer for Terrans is just to play greedy and not aggressively or play passive aggressive. Like threaten to drop at a natural time you get medivacs but don't be over committed to it just cuz you want to drop.
Toss pretty much needs a minimum of 3 bases to actually have a proper army composition they can replenish. So just play greedy and keep tabs on any 1 or 2 base pushes you'd need to defend. Get aggressive when Toss is spread thin between 3 bases.
Problem is, protoss got some ridiculously all-ins that shut down T's greedy play. These all-ins wouldn't be a big problem if the god damn all-ins weren't so hard to scout.
On May 04 2013 05:59 aZealot wrote: OP is little more than well written balance whine. You sound frustrated, OP. Maybe practice more, and give it some time to see what strategies arise if these concerns are as bad as they are. Whine like this belongs in the balance discussion/whine thread. I don't know why it gets its own thread (perhaps the mods cbf anymore). Unless its because Filter gets to ride the coat-tails of one good training Terran macro training thread he contributed long ago. If so, he's long cashed in, IMO.
Close this shitty thread.
Agreed. There are some amazing terran players on TL that can provide some real insight into the game, but this thread does not have them. I haven't seen the "no foreign terran has won" theory of imbalance in a while. The amazing theory that if you exclude all the terrans that are winning against really good players, you somehow get proof that the race is under-powered.
LoL @ butthurt scrub tosses in this thread basically. What filter writes has substance unlike your little agendas. He is pointing out an inconsistency that he thinks is there and has delivered his points clearly and has expressed himself well. Would be interesting to hear some pro opinions on this.
I do think personally that Terran still has early aggression options, mostly involving window mines, but certainly Toss has an array of aggressive builds/all ins to choose from that are viable judging from pro games. It does seem kinda off currently but I am willing to accept that I may be over looking some things and that the game is still quite new and the TvP early game has certainly seen a fair amount of change from WoL > HotS.
I feel like they could make turrets not require an engineering bay and it wouldn't break anything. You would still have to prepare correctly but not having to build an ebay way in advance would make it easier. I don't like that the Nexus Cannon is available so early into the game I feel like if I risk running some marines around the map early there should be the chance of getting rewarded but the Cannon just shuts that down completely otherwise I think it's fine.
On May 04 2013 06:23 Baum wrote: I feel like they could make turrets not require an engineering bay and it wouldn't break anything. You would still have to prepare correctly but not having to build an ebay way in advance would make it easier.
This would affect TvT (cloak banshee), and maybe TvZ? (since burrow now is cheaper, it would be good)
I am really surprised nobody has referenced this game yet. I feel this is a very good way to enter the mid game as terran and still be at the very least on equal footing with protoss without doing something gimmicky.
The op minimizes a lot of points in protoss builds (ofc he do not play P).
Flash vs Parting case: In game 2, Flash misses the double forge. He did not scan those at all. That, plus twilight, plus templar archieves mean a timing, and Flash went for a 3rd. That kind of mistake if lethal in any match up at that level. Also, if you ask my oppinion, Flash (prolly the best bw player ever) is not as strong player in Sc2 right now as Parting (or Bogus).
About proxie oracles: Proxy oracles are both strong vs careless or greedy play (like fast cc; example of non careless play is flash marine positioning in game 1 vs parting), and VERY all-inish. If the T scout it and respond accordingly and play safe, is ahead. Not like Polt.
About Msc: Do any of you remember like half of the loses of pro Protoss in WoL history? Yeah, 1 bases all ins, run by, 2 raxes, pushing and sudently getting droped so pros got eventually forced to stay in base for ever, so every P attack become an all-in. Pressure from P was almost non existant. Msc is the best adition to P, because it allows back and forth, and P is no longer the weak race to very early rushes. This is not WoL anymore, P can be proactive too. Check both Life vs Parting games in the 2nd series. Both were amazing, allowed to Parting to show a magnificent defense vs pure ling all-ins. Msc allowed that. PvZ: Msc core is prolly the big fix to the boring fest of mass FFE vs 3 hatch. Ofc the op is T so he prolly never suffered how depresing was PvZ.
About the whole "Early->Mid Game TvP Needs to Be Addressed"
Do not agree at all.
P can go for an early attack or play defensive+macro.
For the early attacks we have: - Msc+gate poke (easier to defend unless very greedy play, in fact are designed to punish that) - Gate variations (4 gate, or nexus gate pressure). Both are easily scouteable and if it fails, the P is behind, so fair tradeoff. - Tech all-ins. Blink, dt or Oracle. Again, scouteable (double ga s+ no nexus, be ready). The strongest ofc is oracle since it do not have 3 years old so the proper play to play defense is not out there yet. From now, it demands very safe play. If it fails to do dmg, the T is ahead. The other choice is to go macro and def, and it demands very careful play (I don't remember the series, but in a korean PvT a few days ago, T went for mine drops into CC, the P took 1 extra sec to move their probes which lead into a 14 probes lost. I'm pretty sure oracles can't do that), with units on both the nat and main (same as oracle attacks), units that are very short in numbers if you wanna tech (and as a P, you have to), so Msc presence is a must. Also, it is fair to say that in Hots compared to WoL, P is not longer blind, P can go for a fast sentry to hallu asap (weak to defend agression tho) or send msc to the T base (can be dangerous since is slower than marines and if you recall, you lost ur nexus cannon).
Now, T pov. You can play agro into CC or fast CC. I'm not going into details since I'm not a T player (P):
- Proxy factory. If it fails to do dmg, is pretty all inish. - Hellion/Marauder/marine/mine stuff frontal push. Designed to punish greedy play and take the expansion. The key is to force the cannon and go again. No dmg done, ur really behind. - Drop variations. Frontal+main drop, mine, hellbats, marines. Best option, could take 10+ probes easily. I say this is the "oracle" equivalent for T. No dmg done, you're behind. Going for fast CC, demands good scout (reaper is the key here) and proper response and marine positioning. To scout, reaper + scan do the trick very efficiently.
As a final note, I want to say that past the 8min, T have very good game with speedvacs, either going hellbats (battle mode drops are really strong) or mm. Also the T usually get the faster 3rd, which means better eco (thx to mules), while pressing at the same time (ofc this is pretty multitask, skill, dependant, same goes for protoss defending those multipronged posibilities). As a tradeoff, the P usually take the upgrade lead (thx to chrono).
TLDR: Please read the post. The match up is pretty balanced. Imho this is an overreaction for Flash result vs Parting, and I'm pretty convinced he got slighty outplayed.
Both sides in the match up can play agresively, defensive, or greedy. And both can punish their counterpart.
On May 04 2013 06:03 ImperialFist wrote: Terran early game has always been horrible in TvP with the exception of when the 1-1-1 was popular and successful. Standard games have always been about terran hiding behind their bunkers until stim+medivac is available at which point the Terran tries to gain the upper hand during a 2-3 window when toss is getting all their tech, if terrans damages the toss he can go into the late-game with on close to equal terms, if not he's likely to fall victim to a classic a-move + storm - warp in 30 zealots into GG. In hots terran early game TvP got even more horrible.
It's also amazing how good protoss all-ins are. There is a literal flood of brilliant all-ins available for the protoss. Vs some all-ins you can know that it's coming, have 4-5 bunkers and still lose.
Overall I still think that it's a balanced match-up and I've come to accept the lategame as being very hard for me personally on the occasion when I am the Terran.
pretty sure terran is more powerful in the late late game, i think you mean protoss is more powerful when armies are approaching max the first time around.
yeah I'm talking about when toss hits their 3-3- timing with collosi-templar- mass zealot and 20 gates
late, late game is terran favored when they have 30 ghost - 25 vikings with some marauder support and mass orbital
also: stalkers suck, these timings should be hit with a massive number of storms available. Spend the gas on templars, dont get any stalkers for the vikings, storm is the best anti-viking.
On May 04 2013 06:25 Belha wrote: Both sides in the match up can play agresively, defensive, or greedy. And both can punish their counterpart.
If you're suggesting that Terran has near anywhere as close to as many all-ins or punishment options as Protoss then you're simply biased as you only play Protoss. Equal aggressive options are just not there, and that's pretty important in regards to a matchup with a race like Protoss that becomes near unbeatable late game.
On May 04 2013 06:25 Belha wrote: - Proxy factory. If it fails to do dmg, is pretty all inish.
Auto-loses to Stargate (proxied or not), i. e. completely coinflippy.
- Hellion/Marauder/marine/mine stuff frontal push. Designed to punish greedy play and take the expansion. The key is to force the cannon and go again. No dmg done, ur really behind.
Can't punish anything since Photon Overcharge stalls for 1 minut, after which Protoss will easily have what it takes to defend this.
- Drop variations. Frontal+main drop, mine, hellbats, marines. Best option, could take 10+ probes easily. I say this is the "oracle" equivalent for T. No dmg done, you're behind.
Blocked by detection + units in mineral line + PO.
Some pressure openings into expand exist, but they're rare since Protoss has all tools to scout them (this is the main difference with WoL, in which Protoss scouting was much weaker), defend without any loss and thus remain ahead. At high/pro level fast expands are the rule.
On May 04 2013 06:22 Swift118 wrote: LoL @ butthurt scrub tosses in this thread basically. What filter writes has substance unlike your little agendas. He is pointing out an inconsistency that he thinks is there and has delivered his points clearly and has expressed himself well. Would be interesting to hear some pro opinions on this.
I do think personally that Terran still has early aggression options, mostly involving window mines, but certainly Toss has an array of aggressive builds/all ins to choose from that are viable judging from pro games. It does seem kinda off currently but I am willing to accept that I may be over looking some things and that the game is still quite new and the TvP early game has certainly seen a fair amount of change from WoL > HotS.
Like Grubby from page three? Or does he not count because he is protoss?
On May 04 2013 06:22 Swift118 wrote: LoL @ butthurt scrub tosses in this thread basically. What filter writes has substance unlike your little agendas. He is pointing out an inconsistency that he thinks is there and has delivered his points clearly and has expressed himself well. Would be interesting to hear some pro opinions on this.
I do think personally that Terran still has early aggression options, mostly involving window mines, but certainly Toss has an array of aggressive builds/all ins to choose from that are viable judging from pro games. It does seem kinda off currently but I am willing to accept that I may be over looking some things and that the game is still quite new and the TvP early game has certainly seen a fair amount of change from WoL > HotS.
Like Grubby from page three? Or does he not count because he is protoss?
Of course he counts! Hopefully more will come into to share their opinions. Point being I think Filter came up with a decent thread and made some valid points that does not deserve some of the butthurt responses he got.
Warpgate tech renders "Defender's Advantage" completely useless. I wish Blizzard could find a way to make protoss viable without the warpgates.
Right now toss has uncountable different timings to chose from due to the fact that they can play a pylon anywhere on the map and instantly draw on the resources from nearly every single production facility safely positioned in their base.
If you want to negate Defender's Advantage it's supposed to come at a cost, losing a poorly placed proxy pylon is not enough.
- Hellion/Marauder/marine/mine stuff frontal push. Designed to punish greedy play and take the expansion. The key is to force the cannon and go again. No dmg done, ur really behind.
Can't punish anything since Photon Overcharge stalls for 1 minut, after which Protoss will easily have what it takes to defend this.
- Drop variations. Frontal+main drop, mine, hellbats, marines. Best option, could take 10+ probes easily. I say this is the "oracle" equivalent for T. No dmg done, you're behind.
Blocked by detection + units in mineral line + PO.
Some pressure openings into expand exist, but they're rare since Protoss has all tools to scout them (this is the main difference with WoL, in which Protoss scouting was much weaker), defend without any loss and thus remain ahead. At high/pro level fast expands are the rule.
Ofc all can be blocked. Dts are coinflippy as fuck for example. That's not the point at all. You are just fallaciously derrailing the idea of the post. It may work for some people but is as cheap as you can get for any smart person.
Also, a drop blocked simply with "detection + units in mineral line + PO"...that kind of statement is exactly what i meant with minimizing a lot of points of the builds. Is sad to write a wall of text arguing and find such limited kind of response, but i guess I'm the silly in the end.
On May 04 2013 06:46 Emzeeshady wrote: You sound pretty biased yourself buddy. Protoss is in no way near unbeatable late game. Filter even said himself despite being a Terran player that Terran has the upper edge late game.
What annoys me the most is that a unit like DT is supposed to be high risk/high reward. Right now it is more like low risk into potential build order win. If Terran tries to do some kind of proxy or gimmicky attack and is scouted, Terran is playing from behind. At this point i feel that building a merely building a Dark Shrine will put you ahead because Terran has to put so many minerals into defending DTs.
On May 04 2013 06:46 Emzeeshady wrote: You sound pretty biased yourself buddy. Protoss is in no way near unbeatable late game. Filter even said himself despite being a Terran player that Terran has the upper edge late game.
... and he's completely wrong.
Thorzain versus Titan game 3 from their first best of 3 in WCS EU. Titan, ahead 40 supply, maxed with colossi/storm and good upgrades attacks Thorzains third base, gets melted by EMPs, Thorzain counters and wins.
Remember how David Kim always said that he likes certain races to be slightly more powerful during certain parts of the game ? TvP is a match-up where usually in the early to mid-game T had a slight advantage (10 min push with MMM) and after that it balances out and eventually goes into P favor for late game. But I agree with many of the points that the OP makes - now this balance is completely lost because of these changes. Not sure how it could be fixed, seems an hard task
On May 04 2013 06:25 MyNameisYueY wrote: I am really surprised nobody has referenced this game yet. I feel this is a very good way to enter the mid game as terran and still be at the very least on equal footing with protoss without doing something gimmicky.
Are you kidding? This is the definition of a 2 base all in. Alicia had 2-2 on the way while Illusion was only building his engineering bay. Also this build does not solve the problem of how to be safe against early cheese in fact this build would lose against every possible one base build if executed like this.
On May 04 2013 06:46 Emzeeshady wrote: You sound pretty biased yourself buddy. Protoss is in no way near unbeatable late game. Filter even said himself despite being a Terran player that Terran has the upper edge late game.
... and he's completely wrong.
Thorzain versus Titan game 3 from their first best of 3 in WCS EU. Titan, ahead 40 supply, maxed with colossi/storm and good upgrades attacks Thorzains third base, gets melted by EMPs, Thorzain counters and wins.
Titan didn't have a lot of templars neither with his main army nor at home also he attacked at a very very bad position funneling his whole army into a huge clump which was very easy to EMP when he had no reason to commit to an attack. Additionally a lot of his supply was devoted to Zealots which were harrasing Thorzain's natural and main base and even after he lost the fight at the third he didn't realize that he was in trouble and kept warping in Zealots in the main which were dying for free so Titan threw away a huge lead which was only related to very poor play and had nothing to do with either race being at an advantage at that stage of the game.
On May 04 2013 06:56 Prog455 wrote: What annoys me the most is that a unit like DT is supposed to be high risk/high reward. Right now it is more like low risk into potential build order win. If Terran tries to do some kind of proxy or gimmicky attack and is scouted, Terran is playing from behind. At this point i feel that building a merely building a Dark Shrine will put you ahead because Terran has to put so many minerals into defending DTs.
...1 turret at the front of the base to defend a 150/150 building, not to mention the actual DTs that are built is not "a lot of minerals".
On May 04 2013 06:46 Emzeeshady wrote: You sound pretty biased yourself buddy. Protoss is in no way near unbeatable late game. Filter even said himself despite being a Terran player that Terran has the upper edge late game.
... and he's completely wrong.
Thorzain versus Titan game 3 from their first best of 3 in WCS EU. Titan, ahead 40 supply, maxed with colossi/storm and good upgrades attacks Thorzains third base, gets melted by EMPs, Thorzain counters and wins.
It was not a case of lategame at all (from memory there was no fourth, at least for ThorZaIN, and he was down to 56 SCVs so his economy wasn't sufficient to enter a lategame scenario anyway), and just because TitaN's horrible charge into a bio concave failed badly doesn't mean anything for lategame TvP.
On May 04 2013 06:56 Prog455 wrote: What annoys me the most is that a unit like DT is supposed to be high risk/high reward. Right now it is more like low risk into potential build order win. If Terran tries to do some kind of proxy or gimmicky attack and is scouted, Terran is playing from behind. At this point i feel that building a merely building a Dark Shrine will put you ahead because Terran has to put so many minerals into defending DTs.
...1 turret at the front of the base to defend a 150/150 building, not to mention the actual DTs that are built is not "a lot of minerals".
You need a turret in every base if he has warp prism. Considering how mineral heavy anything Terran is 350 minerals is a lot. And even if DTs does no damage to workers they might still force a couple of scans if they start killing off buildings. Furthermore it is not like DTs are useless even when well defended. They can still force scans everytime you want to attack.