Ukraine Crisis - Page 437
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Mc
332 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On April 21 2014 02:46 Mc wrote: lol lol lol, good job FSB. So this video was published on APRIL 19th!! The shooting happened the morning of April 20th (3am local time according to some sources). Even, if there was an issue with timezones and such, it was shot in *daylight*. Basically, seems like irrevocable proof that Russia knew this was going to happen (even knowing how many people would die). WTF WTF!? Please someone explain to me how this is not irrevocable proof that this was entirely stage by Russia? p.s. if you want a translation of the video you can get a very bad one by clicking on "transcript" by "about/add-to/etc" and pasting it into google-translate. Youtube time is California time, a 10 hour difference. The video was published 12 hours ago, putting it at around 8:00 AM - plenty of time to shoot and upload it in daylight. Everything is staged by Russia when that's what you so very dearly want to believe I suppose. | ||
Mc
332 Posts
On April 21 2014 03:41 LegalLord wrote: Youtube time is California time, a 10 hour difference. The video was published 12 hours ago, putting it at around 8:00 AM - plenty of time to shoot and upload it in daylight. Everything is staged by Russia when that's what you so very dearly want to believe I suppose. So let's say it was recorded and posted to youtube by 7am April 20th, Russia time. Then difference is 11 hours back and it would have a date of April 19th because that is something like 8pm California time. Makes sense to me. Thanks for the clarification. Also, I didn't "want to believe" it - I at first thought it is most likely that it was a right sector attack. I just failed logically to analyze the time zone differences.Apologies. | ||
Sub40APM
6336 Posts
On April 20 2014 08:50 Greem wrote: An opinion of the situation which i think is the correct one, which the majority seems to ignore. Gregor Gysi from German Bundestag from Left Wing i believe. This is Russian translation of the video: http://rutube.ru/video/6dbdd3706217de69b1bc61f545609c00/?ref=logo German with English subtitles (be sure to enable this option in youtube player) : You must be really one blind to not agree with him. Now, he doesn't offer ofcourse a solution, now that both side made they errors , since the speech is dated at 18 march, and the Eastern Ukraine escalation wasn't "active" back then i believe. Son of East German cultural minister and former member of the ruling Communist Party of East Germany blames the West for 'expanding' NATO, willfully doesnt understand why free democracies on Russia's border terrified of neo-imperialism voluntarily joined. Sure, thats a 'neutral' perspective, if you want to equivocate between a one party corrupt dictatorship advocating a concept of 'state led democracy' and actual democracies. | ||
Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 21 2014 03:41 LegalLord wrote: Youtube time is California time, a 10 hour difference. The video was published 12 hours ago, putting it at around 8:00 AM - plenty of time to shoot and upload it in daylight. Everything is staged by Russia when that's what you so very dearly want to believe I suppose. Everything is staged by Russia when it is staged by Russia. Belief has nothing to do with this. Fresh $ bills, undamaged car plates on completely burned cars (from Dniepropietrovsk and Crimea!), and for fuck sake, prints of satelite google maps of Slaviansk area - ROFL. Add to this conflicting reports such as that the separatists at the blockade were unarmed, yet there was a fire exchange where one of the supposedly Right Sector guys got killed. They were unarmed and exchanged gun fire and killed one of the attackers? Even though he screwed up with the timezones, this whole "shootout" is a fucking Russian made hoax. | ||
Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On April 21 2014 04:03 Sub40APM wrote: Son of East German cultural minister and former member of the ruling Communist Party of East Germany blames the West for 'expanding' NATO, willfully doesnt understand why free democracies on Russia's border terrified of neo-imperialism voluntarily joined. Sure, thats a 'neutral' perspective, if you want to equivocate between a one party corrupt dictatorship advocating a concept of 'state led democracy' and actual democracies. Not to forget Gysi was punished in 1998 for working as an informant for the 'Stasi' while he was a dissident lawyer and thus he was effectively screwing over his own clients. It's crazy how fast some far left leaning people are able to shift from being radically pacifist to being okay with military adventures as long as the US aren't involved. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On April 21 2014 04:34 Roman666 wrote: Everything is staged by Russia when it is staged by Russia. Belief has nothing to do with this. Fresh $ bills, undamaged car plates on completely burned cars (from Dniepropietrovsk and Crimea!), and for fuck sake, prints of satelite google maps of Slaviansk area - ROFL. Add to this conflicting reports such as that the separatists at the blockade were unarmed, yet there was a fire exchange where one of the supposedly Right Sector guys got killed. They were unarmed and exchanged gun fire and killed one of the attackers? Even though he screwed up with the timezones, this whole "shootout" is a fucking Russian made hoax. Everything is staged by Russia when you want to believe it was. According to the video, the dollar bills, weaponry etc was dropped by individuals leaving the area - probably dropped the entire backpack, and the people investigating laid it all out (makes sense to drop it - ammunition is pretty heavy). Everything else you mentioned is speculation, and a video made right after the event is not really suited for answering those questions. Edit: Rewatching, the story is something along the lines of the fact that there was a close combat fight (the anti-govt had bats or were unarmed, Right Sector had guns), three people died on the spot, the Right Sector attackers fled, dropping some of their equipment while making a run for it. Among the abandoned equipment was a few weapons, ammunition, a backpack, and a sniper net. | ||
Mc
332 Posts
On April 21 2014 04:54 LegalLord wrote: Everything is staged by Russia when you want to believe it was. According to the video, the dollar bills, weaponry etc was dropped by individuals leaving the area - probably dropped the entire backpack, and the people investigating laid it all out (makes sense to drop it - ammunition is pretty heavy). Everything else you mentioned is speculation, and a video made right after the event is not really suited for answering those questions. I agree here with legallord- we really don't have any evidence that it was a hoax, and unless I see some hard evidence (like I mistakenly thought the April 19th video date was), I don't think we can jump to any conclusions. The right sector is a bunch of nationalist thugs, so I wouldn't be surprised that they got really angry with Russian provocations/government inaction and decided to take matters into their own hand. I'd be more surprised if Russia staged the whole thing, but given Russia's behaviour, it is a possibility. As to the perfectly uncreased dollar bills+google maps- it seems almost too perfect. Given how Russian News has become such a fine tuned propaganda machine, it's quite probable that it was planted. No evidence - it just seems to make more sense to me. Why the hell would you bring a bunch of dollars with you when you are planning to attack a checkpoint outside of Slavyansk? Makes no sense at all. The obvious "implication" is that it was given to them by US agents, which goes along perfectly with the false story Russian TV is trying to imply. | ||
Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 21 2014 04:54 LegalLord wrote: Everything is staged by Russia when you want to believe it was. According to the video, the dollar bills, weaponry etc was dropped by individuals leaving the area - probably dropped the entire backpack, and the people investigating laid it all out (makes sense to drop it - ammunition is pretty heavy). Everything else you mentioned is speculation, and a video made right after the event is not really suited for answering those questions. Again, belief has nothing to do with this. I watched the video, my Russian is rusty but I understood well enough what they said there. The video though sounds pretty convincing about who did what, how and why. The problem is I do not buy what they are saying there. But how were you able to find the undamaged car plates to be a speculation is perplexing at least. Also freshly printed $ bills, what in the god's name was that supposed to be? Do you seriously believe that a Right Sector attacker, paid with USD takes the money to the crime scene? Why, why, and again why? | ||
nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On April 20 2014 08:50 Greem wrote: An opinion of the situation which i think is the correct one, which the majority seems to ignore. Gregor Gysi from German Bundestag from Left Wing i believe. This is Russian translation of the video: http://rutube.ru/video/6dbdd3706217de69b1bc61f545609c00/?ref=logo German with English subtitles (be sure to enable this option in youtube player) : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pculDDRKHdg You must be really one blind to not agree with him. Now, he doesn't offer ofcourse a solution, now that both side made they errors , since the speech is dated at 18 march, and the Eastern Ukraine escalation wasn't "active" back then i believe. ah, great speech. Grab your weapons fight the russian pigs, the germans and the jew swines and other pests. tyahnybok, the guy who mccain and nuland were cozying up with. insane. | ||
Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 21 2014 04:54 LegalLord wrote: Edit: Rewatching, the story is something along the lines of the fact that there was a close combat fight (the anti-govt had bats or were unarmed, Right Sector had guns), three people died on the spot, the Right Sector attackers fled, dropping some of their equipment while making a run for it. Among the abandoned equipment was a few weapons, ammunition, a backpack, and a sniper net. So they repelled attackers armed with guns using bats. Come on, seriously? If it would be like that, there would be no anti-govt left out there to relay the news. Don't get me wrong, Right Sector would be capable of pulling such stunt, as they are insane nationalist bandits, however it is not the case here. | ||
DrCooper
Germany261 Posts
On April 21 2014 04:03 Sub40APM wrote: Son of East German cultural minister and former member of the ruling Communist Party of East Germany blames the West for 'expanding' NATO, willfully doesnt understand why free democracies on Russia's border terrified of neo-imperialism voluntarily joined. Sure, thats a 'neutral' perspective, if you want to equivocate between a one party corrupt dictatorship advocating a concept of 'state led democracy' and actual democracies. Just like Crimea voluntarily joined russia. And the NATO did not have to expand to the east. They could have just said "We said we won't expand to eastern europe , so we won't". But why say that, when they actually want to join? Why stand by their promise when it is so easy, such a "right thing" to let them join? Because they want to widen their 'sphere of influence'. Just like Russia is doing now. Well actually Russia is just trying to save a little bit of it. Additionally, I don't believe that the NATO would go to World War III over countries like Latvia. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On April 21 2014 05:14 Roman666 wrote: Again, belief has nothing to do with this. I watched the video, my Russian is rusty but I understood well enough what they said there. The video though sounds pretty convincing about who did what, how and why. The problem is I do not buy what they are saying there. But how were you able to find the undamaged car plates to be a speculation is perplexing at least. Also freshly printed $ bills, what in the god's name was that supposed to be? Do you seriously believe that a Right Sector attacker, paid with USD takes the money to the crime scene? Why, why, and again why? Again, wishful thinking, such as the wishful thinking that Russia planted it all, has everything to do with this. Those do look like newly minted dollar bills (by their design), which is somewhat strange (who would have a stack of new dollar bills handy?). My guess is that it's mercenary snipers paid by the CIA - the same ones that were responsible for the Maidan shootings and many shootings down the line. Would they take that money to the crime scene? Sure, if they don't want to make stops along the way, which is understandable for mercenaries. On April 21 2014 05:18 Roman666 wrote: So they repelled attackers armed with guns using bats. Come on, seriously? If it would be like that, there would be no anti-govt left out there to relay the news. Don't get me wrong, Right Sector would be capable of pulling such stunt, as they are insane nationalist bandits, however it is not the case here. They were repelled by the fact that they ran out of time. Local authorities were on their way. On April 21 2014 05:29 DrCooper wrote: Just like Crimea voluntarily joined russia. And the NATO did not have to expand to the east. They could have just said "We said we won't expand to eastern europe , so we won't". But why say that, when they actually want to join? Why stand by their promise when it is so easy, such a "right thing" to let them join? Because they want to widen their 'sphere of influence'. Just like Russia is doing now. Well actually Russia is just trying to save a little bit of it. Additionally, I don't believe that the NATO would go to World War III over countries like Latvia. The Baltics served as a buffer zone in more dangerous times. Russia doesn't really want them anyways. | ||
Sub40APM
6336 Posts
Oh really, were there rigged elections in all Eastern NATO members, where the choices were join NATO now or join NATO next week while all opposition was suppressed? . And the NATO did not have to expand to the east. They could have just said "We said we won't expand to eastern europe , so we won't". But why say that, when they actually want to join? Why stand by their promise when it is so easy, such a "right thing" to let them join? Because they want to widen their 'sphere of influence'. Yes. On one hand you can believe that free people in free countries decided to join an alliance of democracies so they can spend less money on defense and minimize chance of conflict between themselves or you can believe its the 19th century and the evil geniuses are expanding spheres of influence because its really important for America to have Hungary and its precious supply of whatever in its sphere of influence. Just like Russia is doing now. Well actually Russia is just trying to save a little bit of it. What Russia is doing now is trying to distract its citizens from stagnation with foreign adventures. Additionally, I don't believe that the NATO would go to World War III over countries like Latvia. Well of course you do. | ||
Roman666
Poland1440 Posts
On April 21 2014 05:30 LegalLord wrote: Again, wishful thinking, such as the wishful thinking that Russia planted it all, has everything to do with this. Those do look like newly minted dollar bills (by their design), which is somewhat strange (who would have a stack of new dollar bills handy?). My guess is that it's mercenary snipers paid by the CIA - the same ones that were responsible for the Maidan shootings and many shootings down the line. Would they take that money to the crime scene? Sure, if they don't want to make stops along the way, which is understandable for mercenaries. Proof about the Maidan sniper shooting being perpetrated by CIA, or it did not happen. I can print $ bills on my printer to look fresh on camera. On April 21 2014 04:54 LegalLord wrote: They were repelled by the fact that they ran out of time. Local authorities were on their way. Right, they did not have time to perform a gun massacre on guys armed with bats. | ||
Mc
332 Posts
On April 21 2014 05:30 LegalLord wrote: Those do look like newly minted dollar bills (by their design), which is somewhat strange (who would have a stack of new dollar bills handy?). My guess is that it's mercenary snipers paid by the CIA - the same ones that were responsible for the Maidan shootings and many shootings down the line. Would they take that money to the crime scene? Sure, if they don't want to make stops along the way, which is understandable for mercenaries. So what sounds more likely to you: 1: The US gives freshly printed US $$ to the right sector and tells it to attack a check-point in the middle of the night. The right sector keeps the money with them, being extra careful not to crease the bills nor the google map printouts with hand-writing on them (possible but unlikely), and goes ahead to attack the check-point. After a successful operation, the 'self-defence' forces counter-attack and all the evidence is left at the scene, perfectly undamaged. This all in the light that the right-sector could have performed this attack on it's own without US support (right sector is pro Ukraine anti-foreign interference). Lastly, the US wants to show that the government in Kiev is legit and not just a bunch of radicals- why the heck would the USA want to show that there actually are aggressive Right Sector people in Ukraine??? OR 2: Russian TV news (which has been shown countless times to stretch the truth or sometimes just lie), plants a few $$ bills to make it seem like the USA is involved. To me the 2nd option seems way more likely, unless you watch primarily Russian TV news and believe all the crap they are spouting. | ||
Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On April 21 2014 05:30 LegalLord wrote: Again, wishful thinking, such as the wishful thinking that Russia planted it all, has everything to do with this. Those do look like newly minted dollar bills (by their design), which is somewhat strange (who would have a stack of new dollar bills handy?). My guess is that it's mercenary snipers paid by the CIA - the same ones that were responsible for the Maidan shootings and many shootings down the line. Would they take that money to the crime scene? Sure, if they don't want to make stops along the way, which is understandable for mercenaries. They were repelled by the fact that they ran out of time. Local authorities were on their way. The Baltics served as a buffer zone in more dangerous times. Russia doesn't really want them anyways. What betrays you is your casual reference to Maidan mercenaries. There is no evidence that Maidan was perpetrated by the CIA, or whatever else conspiracy theory is being spouted at the moment. There are documents showcasing that Yanukovich signed the order, there are documents, witness reports and photos showing that FSB agents provided the plans and the means for the Maidan shootings, and there a large number of photographs showcasing the snipers moving in and out of government buildings in between shootings. All of that is pretty damn conclusive evidence that protesters were shot by Berkut forces. On top of all of that, it's just so much more plausible that people are shot by people that oppose them, rather than people that support them. Especially if those people, Berkut police forces, later fight in Crimea and Eastern Ukraine on the side of Russia. As for the Slovyansk shooting, pretty much every source except for known Kremlin sources claim that it was a Russian provocation, and don't find the story about `Right sector revenge' plausible. This includes people who have openly accused of Ukraine of lying about their terrorism operation (which basically didn't exist), and called out false claims previously. The reason is very simple, the story does not stand to reason in Slovyansk. The shooting came from out of the blue, with no prior shows of violence of similar fashion from the Right Sector. Sure, they are not nice people, but they don't send cars full of troops to kill random checkpoint militia. Especially not during Easter, and during a truce. Also, you need to entirely ignore the fact that they deny any involvement. If they were the crazed naziss that Russia claims they are, it would be in their MO to take credit for the violence. Yet, they do not. There's also a lot of suspicious evidence, such as the maps, the mint dollar bills and the unburned plates. All of this is evidence you need to willfully ignore to make the Right sector story believable for yourself. The final bit is very simple, the news was reported suspiciously early by Kremlin controlled media. This is media that has been brazenly lying about everything happening in Ukraine since day one, as has been shown by independent media, OSCE and UN human rights reports. There's literally no source except for Kremlin controlled media carrying the same message about Ukraine. I hate to point this out, but when in doubt, you shouldn't go taking facts from the boy who has cried wolf all this time. Edit: As for the Baltics, it's BS to claim that Russia doesn't want them. Russia currently spends large amounts of money and directs a sizeable network of agents trying to vie for influence in Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. It spends more on each election in the region than most main political parties from the countries themselves. Even if it's not trying to invade or annex them, it is meddling in their internal affairs on a day to day basis, trying to influence them to move back in their direction. Trust me, I see the FSB acting in the Baltics constantly, and you don't spend that much money and effort if you're not interested in the region. | ||
Saryph
United States1955 Posts
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DrCooper
Germany261 Posts
On April 21 2014 05:40 Sub40APM wrote: Oh really, were there rigged elections in all Eastern NATO members, where the choices were join NATO now or join NATO next week while all opposition was suppressed? While I agree that the Crimea elections may have been rigged, it does not seem to be far fetched that the majority of people in Crimea would rather be part of Russia than part of Ukraine. Probably not the 98% or whatever the russians said. Yes. On one hand you can believe that free people in free countries decided to join an alliance of democracies so they can spend less money on defense and minimize chance of conflict between themselves or you can believe its the 19th century and the evil geniuses are expanding spheres of influence because its really important for America to have Hungary and its precious supply of whatever in its sphere of influence. Well the world ain't sunshine and rainbows. Things like "Areas of Control" and "Spheres of Influence" are not a thing of the past. It is not 19th Century thinking. To think so would be ludicrous. There is a reason we have been moving NATO troops east ever since the soviet union fell. There is a reason for why the Monroe Doctrine is still in power. There is a reason why Putin did not let the UN intervene in Syria. There is a reason why George Bush senior invaded Panama in the 90's and bolstered right wing leaderships in Nicaragua. Why do you think we have troops and missile defence systems all around Russia? Listen, I am all for freedom and the right to national sovereignty and the ability to choose ones own government. But you have to realize that we haven't exactly been very non-provocative towards Russia. I would not go as far as to say that it is the fault of the NATO, but we kind of have been "poking the bear" a little bit. Put yourself in the russian perspective. How would the U.S feel if Russia had military bases and missile defence systems in Central America and they were trying to get Mexico to join in. You think the U.S would just sit there and let it happen? No of course not. That already happened and the U.S did attack a sovereign state because of that. Yes I would rather have the world to be cuddly and nobody is fighting, but that is not going to happen. Every Country will defend its interests. Even more so world powers. | ||
radiatoren
Denmark1907 Posts
On April 21 2014 06:33 DrCooper wrote: While I agree that the Crimea elections may have been rigged, it does not seem to be far fetched that the majority of people in Crimea would rather be part of Russia than part of Ukraine. Probably not the 98% or whatever the russians said. Well the world ain't sunshine and rainbows. Things like "Areas of Control" and "Spheres of Influence" are not a thing of the past. It is not 19th Century thinking. To think so would be ludicrous. There is a reason we have been moving NATO troops east ever since the soviet union fell. There is a reason for why the Monroe Doctrine is still in power. There is a reason why Putin did not let the UN intervene in Syria. There is a reason why George Bush senior invaded Panama in the 90's and bolstered right wing leaderships in Nicaragua. Why do you think we have troops and missile defence systems all around Russia? Listen, I am all for freedom and the right to national sovereignty and the ability to choose ones own government. But you have to realize that we haven't exactly been very non-provocative towards Russia. I would not go as far as to say that it is the fault of the NATO, but we kind of have been "poking the bear" a little bit. Put yourself in the russian perspective. How would the U.S feel if Russia had military bases and missile defence systems in Central America and they were trying to get Mexico to join in. You think the U.S would just sit there and let it happen? No of course not. That already happened and the U.S did attack a sovereign state because of that. Yes I would rather have the world to be cuddly and nobody is fighting, but that is not going to happen. Every Country will defend its interests. Even more so world powers. There is a respect for national borders being more or less unchangeable in the world since about ww2. That doctrine was arguably the start of the geopolitical sphere-game during the cold war. It ended when USSR shattered! Today that game is off and trade interests have taken precedence over "might makes right". The thought of NATO being USAs puppet and having a sinister plan of gobbling up the world to eventually rise and shatter Russia is absurd. USA is not NATO. NATO is a defensive military cooperation with some cooperation with Russia. The reasons for joining NATO are diverse and there are several - not least economic - benefits. NATO is basically an insurance policy to avoid having to overspend on military. But here is the kicker: NATO is not a mighty monster judging and punishing left and right. It is not for NATO to decide who wants to apply and if a country meet the requirements and go through the process it is not for NATO to deny membership on account of russian interests! The conspiratorial geopolitical chessgame with USSR and USA as the agitators behind every drop of blood is not reallty anymore. The USSR/Russia vs. USA/"the west" is not a necessary assumption for analysis of events. What is happening in Ukraine can be adequately described as Russia interfering in Ukraine. There is no need for a geopolitical analysis to determine if Russias might makes right. | ||
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