On July 08 2015 03:18 BisuDagger wrote: I think instead of nerfing zerg Blizzard could use this opportunity to improve the thor. Since you are playing mech it would make sense to make this unit viable for you. As I see it Thor vs BL would be a way for Terran to combat Zerg with Slow and Powerful vs Slow and Powerful. What if thors had a charge/stomp type ability that allowed them to walk on/through broodlings and march with in range of Broodlords. Thors can't be fungal-ed either irrc. It would be great to see this unit breaking through zerg lines in the late game.
This concept was used on ultralisk. It wad called burrow charge. People said it was OP and got removed.
So yeah... don't know how would this work on another unit.
Let us test it, its just in beta its for testing, so lets test it.
I'm all for testing anything new.
Like I said before people should swarm with ideas because they are listening in the beta. Its our last chance to make this game good and balanced.
And we should all try to adapt to new things and make more new things. Cuz we know already from experience that if we dont, will get some boring styles that repeat themself over and over again.
I mean look at HoTS in some ways its worse the WoL.
What was that account with league placements though? or maybe i hear an apology? im certainly not a slug
Now that we have parasitic bomb to deal with mass air, maybe fungal doesn't need to hit air any more? The only thing that makes me worry about is mutas in ZvZ though.
Also BisuDagger... your rocket jump idea for thors... they could replace the cannons on the thor's back that no longer do anything in Void with rocket boosters!
I want to know how on earth a zerg ever got that composition in LotV. The reduced economy means that it is almost impossible to build such an expensive army if your opponent is even vaguely trying to harass you.
Did you literally just turtle on your side of the map until he attacked? If so I have no sympathy.
On July 08 2015 08:42 imJealous wrote: Now that we have parasitic bomb to deal with mass air, maybe fungal doesn't need to hit air any more? The only thing that makes me worry about is mutas in ZvZ though.
Also BisuDagger... your rocket jump idea for thors... they could replace the cannons on the thor's back that no longer do anything in Void with rocket boosters!
I don't know how you used SM but they are to slow to dodge that if you know how to use SM correctly. Cyclone can lock-on at 9 range and their fast enough tó dodge fungal. Mass Cyclone with hellions trades very efficient vs anything else.
i am a 18 times master/top master terran in gm mmr in hots
i mech in all matchups and feel tvp is a lot easier then tvz, it is not me who does not know how to use seeker missiles, it is you who do not run away so they fizzle, i can guarrantee 100% of the time no seeker will land when i play zerg vs terran mech!
Both of your replays are somewhat cheesy play styles with a single army hotkey and almost no multitasking. They do not demonstrate any of the skills necessary to beat brood lord style play.
I think it would help for me to understand where you felt you were forced into an unwinnable game TvZ if your replays were relevant to the post you are having issues with.
You chose to post replays where you play rather than cheesy games low multitasking games, where you add the whole army with f2 and amove and have very high unspent resources. (550,300) At the current time, based off of high level play from players like masa, qxc, I still believe terran is at the advantage and this post leaves no evidence otherwise. Could you please update with relevant replay so i can see the issue you are having?
What is your account please? dont throw stones when you sit in a glass house yourself.
The replays were to prove my upper limit is gm which entirely validates my point concerning ZergLingShepherd1, but if you want the game to be hell for everyone not in high master then sure you can say im not good enough to judge.
Don't complain I'm throwing stones. I honestly could care less about what your league is. In lotv, people can still make good strategies even if they are diamond and take games off gms. (Posting a profile which says i'm masters since i started playing or replays of mine which do not use this composition don't help with the thread.) Primarily, I'm offracing as protoss at the moment in lotv to demonstrate some ideas for my work on ideas of how to improve protoss. You can look at my post history, I work hard to take ideas from the community and make them into stronger more defined deliverables for blizzard with relevant data and graphs. People, like yourself get mad, when i feel like a post is not clear and may not get the attention it deserves because it lacks detail and precise data.
I asked for examples of games where it was op. I thought you would give some. Instead, i downloaded the replays you posted which were a waste of my time. They were not even lotv, but hots. Additionally, the conclusions from them seem to show something other than the issue you are having. I stated why I thought they were bad given the point of the post and asked for relevant replays which better demonstrate your skill and problem.
Basically, your replay seems you are more interested in saying I'm a nobody (which is true), more than showing what the situation is. The only people in the community who know me are mostly ex brood war player who i provided scouting reports for. Most games in lotv ZvT vs mech, I win with a different composition. I prefer a more mobile composition. I beat mech with queen, ultralisk, hydra, viper play usually.
I can run some tests and builds with my practice partners, starting july 13th after my current project, to identify what is the specific problem that should be addressed and I can work with blizzard with facts numbers and data. Until i have some replays, I don't know how to address this.
On July 08 2015 03:24 inken wrote: i can imagine you're really good if you play master level and maybe there really is a balance problem, but did you really try every option before saying there's no way to beat it?? i mean really...
in general only the status quo between top pro gamers should influence balance development. they're the ones who need to make a living from esports, so chances of winning should be equal for them first and foremost. not to ladder players, even if they play master level.
Attacking me doesnt concern my points, even if i was bronze my points would still count if they are true and valid.
There is no composition that deals with broodlord infestor viper due to how good parasite bomb is vs vikings, and the only cause of action is to do something about fungal, parasite bomb or viking range.
hmmm i've seen one of those lotv tournaments, think it was casted by basetrade tv. it was an archon match, tvz.
terran went for mass cyclone, zerg for bl infestor, maybe even vipers but not sure since terran had no air army so zerg had no need for parasitic bomb.
what i remember is that the bl army was ridiculously slow. terran could easily move around it and kill the zergs expansions. rifkin said something about mass cyclones even recking bl armies when fully upgraded (aa, lock on range + scans) AND combined with blue flame hellbats that oneshot broodlings.
in the end the terran archon lost, according to rifkin due to not making the bf hellbats.
have you tried mass cyclone with blue flame hellbats yet? because the lock on range + scans should trade well with Viper/infestor and their smaller spell range. plus the speed of cyclones allows you to choose where you want to take the fight.
On July 08 2015 03:32 Neutrino_ wrote: I have two major gripes with Thors.
1. They are as boring as hell. 2. I've seen no effective defense against them getting abducted.
Point 2 is probably why most late game TvZ I've seen the Thors become largely irrelevant and it's all about the massed Ravens, which is a pretty shitty situation.
Okay well imagine being abducted, then having the ability to charge/march/boost your way out of the zerg army back to your army line instead of using the ability to boost towards enemies.
It's not a bad idea, but it isn't my preference for a number of reasons.
Too much like burrow charge (so particularly unlikely to be implemented since that was already removed).
A bit MOBA like. You'd have a Thor that already whizzed across the map once when it got abducted, now whizzing back across the map again with Charge/Stomp/Boost ability. It doesn't have the flavour I associate with StarCraft, has more the flavour of DOTA.
Defensive abilities plus air/ground and AA on one unit might end up just replacing Raven spam with Thor spam.
Having a unit able to cast the Defensive Matrix makes it the job of other units to save the abducted unit. This encourages a richer unit composition and the Defensive Matrix can be used on other units in other situations so has more flexibility and the potential for emergent new tactics.
The Defensive Matrix ability is already in the campaign mode on the BC, so it should be really easy to add to multiplayer mode. Personally I'd like to see the PDD on the Raven replaced with the Defensive Matrix, (which could be seen as an indirect buff to Hydralisks since the PDD kills their dps).
On July 08 2015 13:29 SC2Towelie wrote: Zerg has no counter for maxed out raven/thor/siege tank in HotS, so what? Scout often, and attack when they're trying to transition.
Answering "so what?": Any composition in the game where the only counter is to "kill them before they get there" is a sign of flawed design and should be reworked. Following your argument, Terran having such a composition in HotS is bad enough. It is in no way an argument for giving such a composition to Zerg in LotV as no race should have that in the first place. The way to make the game fair is to make the game fair, not to give each race seasonal imbalances.
What if the thor had his anti-armor air attack replaced by an skill that increases his range a lot and makes him immobile? (Yes its an anti air siege tank.)
On July 08 2015 19:25 Morbidius wrote: What if the thor had his anti-armor air attack replaced by an skill that increases his range a lot and makes him immobile? (Yes its an anti air siege tank.)
This is such a cool idea it would look something like this
On July 08 2015 13:29 SC2Towelie wrote: Zerg has no counter for maxed out raven/thor/siege tank in HotS, so what? Scout often, and attack when they're trying to transition.
Answering "so what?": Any composition in the game where the only counter is to "kill them before they get there" is a sign of flawed design and should be reworked. Following your argument, Terran having such a composition in HotS is bad enough. It is in no way an argument for giving such a composition to Zerg in LotV as no race should have that in the first place. The way to make the game fair is to make the game fair, not to give each race seasonal imbalances.
Yeah i agree, a substantial fanbase plays mech so their voices should be heard too!