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why i feel like most ppl responding here didnt read the thread and have no clue what they are talking about. Also ppl voting in the poll are probably casuals, new ppl or players who were never good and just only want to play a game, not giving fuck about tons of racepicking "coming back" players who want to help to grow bw again, but mirrors on ladder will acctually slow the process of growing down...
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On August 18 2017 21:13 The_Red_Viper wrote:Why limit it to avoiding mirrors? I want my special treatment as well. What about playing TvZ, PvT and ZvP ? Or i really hate to play vs players who cheese a lot, there should be an option where i can select that i only get matched vs players who cheese in less than 10% of their games. It's funny to me that this is a discussion in the bw forums btw, the "perfect game". Apparently not perfect enough to play mirror matchups. Maybe we should change those
You can't (as in, it's not possible) change mirrors so that the people that dislike them currently start to like them. Mirrors are always going to be less dynamic than non-mirrors, as they lack the imbalances that stem from the differences between the races in a non-mirror matchup. The dynamic that these imbalances create, can by definition not exist in a mirror. There are always going to be people that prefer this dynamic to the balance of a mirror matchup.
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On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you...
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for the people claiming that it "literally wouldn't affect queue times" how can this be? right now you are matched based on MMR and map choice but wouldn't adding a 3rd criteria only further limit the possible players you can be matched with? am I missing something?
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On August 18 2017 22:07 jaeboss wrote: for the people claiming that it "literally wouldn't affect queue times" how can this be? right now you are matched based on MMR and map choice but wouldn't adding a 3rd criteria only further limit the possible players you can be matched with? am I missing something?
lol,there would be no 3rd criteria. you would play the same players as now, there would only be lesser mirrors
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On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player.
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I really don't understand what the point of removing mirrors would be, to send things back to the old days? The redesigned matchmaking system was, among other things, meant to bring Starcraft into the 21st century...
I may have lost all but one TvT I've played so far, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to avoid them completely; I think you'd be hurting yourself as a player to do so.
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I have to say I agree with the people who wants to avoid mirrors. Even though I personally don't feel a need for it at all, there's no going around that it was a part of BW throughout pretty much all history. The solution suggested in here seems quite clever. Might be a bit hard for Blizzard to actually make happen, but it sounds quite neat if it was possible.
It's not just about the MMR - or even at all, for that matter. There's the balance between the joy of improving, and the joy of the match ups. And there's no going around that the mirrors are by far the most boring ones.
There truly is no good reason to prevent people from choosing match ups/dodging mirrors. The only problem as far as I can see, is whether or not the game get's enough recources/attention from Blizzard to actually implement it.
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On August 18 2017 22:23 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you.
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On August 18 2017 22:34 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:23 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you. Given your logic, you prob have 1500 MMR, so I dunno man. Not sure it matters.
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On August 18 2017 22:41 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:34 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 22:23 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you. Given your logic, you prob have 1500 MMR, so I dunno man. Not sure it matters. 1850 with Random and a shitty mouse lag, still wrecking. Good luck when I match with you.
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On August 18 2017 22:13 Lopata wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:07 jaeboss wrote: for the people claiming that it "literally wouldn't affect queue times" how can this be? right now you are matched based on MMR and map choice but wouldn't adding a 3rd criteria only further limit the possible players you can be matched with? am I missing something? lol,there would be no 3rd criteria. you would play the same players as now, there would only be lesser mirrors
it depends what u are arguing. if you are strictly talking about preventing mirrors than yes, but if you are arguing for vetoing certain match ups then there would most certainly be a 3rd criteria that would lessen the field of possible matches
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It's honestly mind boggling just how many people object to mu picking in this thread, the entire purpose of remastered was to not change anything about the game, and yet Blizzard have inadvertently done so to an extent that is unacceptable. Mu picking has always been allowed in every single ladder and in 99% of all tournaments (It makes sense you had to give advance notice in a MSL-type setting, since you and your opponent are practicing for that specific match for weeks leading up to it). People also throw around vague phrases like "lots of people like mirrors", but it seems to me that the best evidence on that subject is in the sponsored Afreeca matches, where literally thousands of viewers PAY to watch two progamers play a series - the OVERWHELMING amount of which are not mirrors.
Furthermore, there is another possible solution to the debacle, one that might be easier to program or implement from Blizzard's side - what if the two players matched in ranked are put into a custom game with an automatic 10/5 second count down, where they could change their race? Alternatively, how about allowing players to change their race after being matched in the current implementation of the automated matchmaking system. I feel that both of these options would be better than the current system, even though you might end up in awkward situations where both you and your opponent change your race.
Lastly, on a completely personal note I would like to play zvp zvt tvz, I have for about 18? years. The reason isn't because I don't know how to play zvz, it's simply because playing tvz produces more consistent results. In zvz, I am consistently beating players significantly better than myself, while losing to players worse than myself, it has been that way for the vast majority of my starcraft "career". Personally I would prefer playing tvz, which has always resulted in me consistently losing to players better than myself, while beating players worse than myself.
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On August 18 2017 22:53 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:41 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:34 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 22:23 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you. Given your logic, you prob have 1500 MMR, so I dunno man. Not sure it matters. 1850 with Random and a shitty mouse lag, still wrecking. Good luck when I match with you. You're a really champ. Me: hey guys, I can't beat anyone. You: oh man, I'd love to play you. Can't even wall. Keke. Man, I was so good at P vs Z. I knew everything before I even played it. Go me, I picked random. Awesome man.
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On August 18 2017 23:02 playa wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:53 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 22:41 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:34 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 22:23 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you. Given your logic, you prob have 1500 MMR, so I dunno man. Not sure it matters. 1850 with Random and a shitty mouse lag, still wrecking. Good luck when I match with you. You're a really champ. Me: hey guys, I can't beat anyone. You: oh man, I'd love to play you. Can't even wall. Keke. Man, I was so good at P vs Z. I knew everything before I even played it. Go me, I picked random. Awesome man. Uhhhh... what? I'm pretty sure you brought this upon yourself.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 21:55 Lopata wrote: why i feel like most ppl responding here didnt read the thread and have no clue what they are talking about. Also ppl voting in the poll are probably casuals, new ppl or players who were never good and just only want to play a game, not giving fuck about tons of racepicking "coming back" players who want to help to grow bw again, but mirrors on ladder will acctually slow the process of growing down... I don't understand it either but there's some kind of idea of race picking being bad that's been around ever since the pre-sc2 beta days at least...
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 22:54 jaeboss wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 22:13 Lopata wrote:On August 18 2017 22:07 jaeboss wrote: for the people claiming that it "literally wouldn't affect queue times" how can this be? right now you are matched based on MMR and map choice but wouldn't adding a 3rd criteria only further limit the possible players you can be matched with? am I missing something? lol,there would be no 3rd criteria. you would play the same players as now, there would only be lesser mirrors it depends what u are arguing. if you are strictly talking about preventing mirrors than yes, but if you are arguing for vetoing certain match ups then there would most certainly be a 3rd criteria that would lessen the field of possible matches Obviously you cannot veto a race entirely - you would pick like this:
vs X, Y vs Z, Y vs Y, X If incompatible or Random: Y
It's incredibly simple and is exactly how any race picker had to do it in BW as well (I played PvT PvZ TvP PvR for a long time, ended up eventually being full protoss but lots of race picking experience).
On August 18 2017 22:24 renaissanceMAN wrote: I really don't understand what the point of removing mirrors would be, to send things back to the old days? The redesigned matchmaking system was, among other things, meant to bring Starcraft into the 21st century...
I may have lost all but one TvT I've played so far, but that doesn't mean that I don't want to avoid them completely; I think you'd be hurting yourself as a player to do so. How is a player that plays TvZ TvP ZvT TvR less complete than someone who plays TvZ TvT TvP TvR?
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On August 18 2017 23:11 EndingLife wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 23:02 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:53 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 22:41 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:34 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 22:23 playa wrote:On August 18 2017 22:06 EndingLife wrote:On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. What server do you play on? I can't wait to play Random against you... You don't say. You guys live to try to torment others. More interested in being annoying than good/winning. Worse than cheating. You guys actually think it's noble. If you ever want to ruin a game, hire a random player. If you ever want to ruin a game, try to ban something that has been implemented into this game since 1998. After hearing that you can't wall-off properly vs zerg, I'm done talking to you. What server do you play on? I have a scout build JUST for you. Given your logic, you prob have 1500 MMR, so I dunno man. Not sure it matters. 1850 with Random and a shitty mouse lag, still wrecking. Good luck when I match with you. You're a really champ. Me: hey guys, I can't beat anyone. You: oh man, I'd love to play you. Can't even wall. Keke. Man, I was so good at P vs Z. I knew everything before I even played it. Go me, I picked random. Awesome man. Uhhhh... what? I'm pretty sure you brought this upon yourself. Brought what on myself? Being trolled? I've never had a reason to play P vs Z in my life. But, ofc everything is funny to someone cool enough to have picked random. It must have been super hard man. Feel free to talk about how difficult it is to play 3 races. Maybe you can shed some light on some more advantages you think you need. I mean, after all, no one plays random at pro level, cause no human is good enough.
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Sweden33719 Posts
On August 18 2017 19:44 Drake wrote:Show nested quote +On August 18 2017 13:08 Liquid`Jinro wrote:On August 18 2017 12:57 rauk wrote:On August 18 2017 10:37 Dazed. wrote:On August 18 2017 08:40 rauk wrote:On August 18 2017 08:21 .gypsy wrote: Looks like I'm committed on this one boys.
In terms of matchmaking, Espers, I argue that race picking does not have a place. Why?
Here are a couple of things to consider:
How do we define race picking? Should we define race picking only from the perspective of avoiding mirror matchups? That is to say, that you must be , e.g., a zerg player, and you can only race pick versus other zerg players. Presumably this is most people's stance, but why should we privilege this type of race picker that involves players that play, for example, TvZ PvT ZvP, or like ZvT ZvZ TvP. It seems unclear as to why we should favor one over the other.
-> 1) in the case that we do discriminate, like I said, it seems quite arbitrary. What if there were a group of race pickers arguing for the exact same thing most of the people in this thread are arguing for, e.g. race picking, but just a different kind of race picking, i.e. one that allows for mirror matchups, (e..g ZvT ZvZ TvP case), or one that allows for 'non race-consistent' picking (e.g. TvZ PvT ZvP)
-> 2) in the case that we do not discriminate, i.e. allow all kinds of racepicking. How do you implement this? See, for example, my suggestions in my earlier post, but also consider what this would do to queue times, etc. Think about how the UI would look like, how the algorithm would look like, whatever.
Think about all these complications from a design standpoint: seems like anything but simple. Do I think it's possible? Yes it certainly is possible to integrate race picking into matchmaking, and it could be cool to live in a world where I could queue up for whatever matchup I wanted to, even something like ZvT PvT TvT (i.e. only play against one race). Ideally it could be cool, and it could be done, practically it seems very unappealing.
Anyway there's a reason I never write constructive posts on forums. I think I've quite eloquently/concisely presented the problem of race picking both in terms of its competitive dimension but also in terms of the whole automated matchmaking / game design perspective, yet I'm met with responses 1 sentence passive-aggressive responses from people whom clearly not only have not clearly read my posts, but have also clearly not given an ounce of thought to the whole race-picking issue.
Find friends to play with and play whatever matchups you want. Race picking will NEVER be integrated into matchmaking.
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I'm sure implementing a matchmaking with the ability to queue for non-mirror matchups and implementing a coin-flip system would be pretty simple to appoint races in cases of race picking conflict.
I guess I'm an idiot lol! Obviously no one's going to get the point I'm trying to make with respect to the issues of defining race picking as something you do in order to avoid mirrors. -> I can easily imagine a world where some protoss players hate playing PvZ and instead TvZ, so they all play PvT, PvP, TvZ. Race-picking in this case does not involve dodging mirrors.
Personally I don't see why we should discriminate between these different variants of race pickers. Which is why, to me, implementing a race picking system to avoid mirror matchups seems very stupid.
Great stuff guys haha you got me.
as far as i know the second scenario basically doesn't even exist. 99% of racepickers do it to avoid mirrors. doesn't seem arbitrary to me at all You made that statistic up in order to satisfy your argument, there are many people who hate tvp or any given matchup. Many people like mirrors. On August 18 2017 09:45 RowdierBob wrote: I think the Korean league did change the race picking rules at some point. It was very common for a while, particularly with dumb maps like Paradoxx. I'm pretty sure Joyo for example played PvT, TvP, TvZ. Chojja would play Terran on Paradoxx.
I think you're right about the rule change though. At some point it did seem to change as race-picking died in the major Korean leagues.
As far as I'm aware though it was never banned in major foreigner tournaments like WCG or TSL. Why are we even talking about korean leagues? Its a league, it has no similarity to a ladder least of all one with automated match making. It simply doesnt matter. can you show me any pro foreign or korean who racepicked anything other than mirror? maybe testie and some random pros in 1999? Very easy - PJ until he went to SKT and switched to P only... can't quite recall if he played PvT PvP TvZ or PvT ZvP TvZ? Protoss players picking TvZ or ZvP were not that rare at all... I think Trek also did something like that. That being said, it should definitely be allowed. There is no reasonable argument for why it would be difficult to have a PvZ PvT PvR TvP ... matchup selection option, and anytime you run into matchup conflict you default both to their vs random race. There's nothing preventing you from picking TvZ over ZvZ in most tournaments, so why it's somehow less 'pure' is beyond me. so 2 people are matched against each other the one hate zvp likes zvz gets alot zvp then so he changes to tvz but the other guy isnt zvt he wants pvz etc, in the end one suffers and its a huge problem to programm and will result in alot mistakes and also the palyers liking or are better in mirrors will get ranked worse by having less of them overall there is absolute 0 reason for this a race or random as pick should be fine This literally cannot happen if both players have a vs Random race set - if their matchup matrix is incompatible you just auto default both to their vs random option.
In the days of custom-lobby ladder, yeah this could happen, but now it literally can't with a proper (and simple) algorithm.
On August 18 2017 20:42 orvinreyes wrote: OP, this is bullshit. What is this truly for? So you could keep your precious win rate? We know you hate mirrors because you suck at it. Therefore it also means some are good at it -- fair game. I dislike mirrors too, but I play it anyway because it's part of Starcraft.
I have suggestions for you:
1) just stick to custom games and kick out whoever you dislike. Hope the wait time suits you. You get to keep your precious win rate though. 2) offer to pay blizzard a monthly premium, maybe they can give you this feature so you can finally play like a spoiled brat
Race picking is part of Starcraft, if anything...
Grrr vs Theboy back in the early 2000s they race picked.
Chrh race picked/randomed.
Slayer race picked.
PJ race picked.
Testie race picked. Mondragon sometimes race picked (he had sick PvZ). Trek race picked. Daaman I thiiiiink race picked if memory serves. Ret race picked for most of his career. Twisted race picked. Drone race picked / randomed (ok mostly randomed like a true hero). Joyo race picked. Infinity race picked.
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On August 18 2017 20:08 playa wrote: It's so stupid having to play the highest rated Zerg on your server and you have no f'ing idea how to even wall off. The ladder is just huge MMR inflation for people who only play 1 race. And Random players should be banned. Treated as hackers.
I was playing this guy and he said "ssssss," followed by "ooops." I was like... guess he must be Zerg. Sure enough.... Zerg. These guys are all so scummy, and it tilts me that they think they're clever. If you weren't allowed to play for the first 30 seconds, they'd still want more advantages. treated as hackers? really? LOL
you have serious issues man
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