Recently Tesagi has become a fun little meme in the BW scene but i thought it would be interesting if we could have a serious discussion about BW balance. I'll start us off by comparing the dominant players throughout the history of BW.
I'll try to present my case by comparing the bonjwas/high end players for each race (by posting my race rankings and my top 10 all time ranking). My rankings are obviously subjective, that said i think my list is fairly accurate (i factored in player accomplishments and peak skill level as a secondary parameter). My main goal is not to discuss whether or not X player should be ranked 4th instead of 5th, it's to show the amount of dominant players/bonjwas that each race has had throughout the history of the game.
Even tho players like BeSt and Soulkey were very high level players at their peak i decided to leave them off my list. The impact they left on the game (in terms of individual accomplishments) is negligible but they were both very good players nonetheless. ChoJJa also deserves a shoutout, some people might have him #6 instead of GoRush but again that's pretty irrelevant to my main argument. The lower end people on my list are more of an honorable mention more than anything, a lot of those players are interchangeable.
I based my rankings on player accomplishments but i also factored in individual skill levels. For example Bisu isn't your typical tier 1 bonjwa but i consider him one due to his skill level and overall body of work (3 MSL titles, overall winrate, performance in non premier/major tournaments such as IEF etc.).
I'm sure everyone can agree that the best player of each race is Flash, JD and Bisu. That said, if you look at their individual accomplishments it's clear that Bisu is way behind JD and Flash.
Now look at the 2nd best players for each race. You can argue that Stork and FantaSy (easy comparison to make because they were rivals) are pretty much in the same tier in terms of accomplishments/overall level of play (i'll give the edge to Stork but the gap isn't huge tho, FantaSy was peaking towards the end of the KeSPA era).. but FantaSy is ~the 5th best Terran player whereas Stork is easily the 2nd best Protoss. Of course Stork isn't comparable to players such as NaDa/iloveoov or sAviOr (and possibly July), all those guys left a huge mark on the game.
Now let's look at the 3rd best players for each race. We have iloveoov for Terran, sAviOr for Zerg (some might argue that July deserves to be #3 due to what happened with sAviOr) and Jangbi or Nal_rA for Protoss (again, debatable #3/#4 ranking for Toss). Jangbi and Nal_rA have had great careers but can anyone honestly say that they're comparable to July/sAviOr, iloveoov or BoxeR (in terms of the impact they've had on the game)? Nope.. and it really isn't close imo.
Now let's look at the top 10 greatest players of all time. This list is subjective (for example you can have Bisu at #3 and NaDa at #4, some people might even have iloveoov at #4 and Bisu at #5) but the point i want to get across is how little impact Protoss has made compared to the other races throughout the years.
Statistically Zerg hasn't fared too well either but their top 3 players were extremely dominant. sAviOr and July left their mark on the game, they were both bonjwas during their peak.
Top 10 all time rankings:
1) Flash 2) JD 3) NaDa 4) Bisu 5) iloveoov 6) sAviOr 7) BoxeR 8) July 9) Stork 10) FantaSy
So we have 5 Terrans, 3 Zergs and 2 Protoss'. Personally I consider the top 8 players to be bonjwas (which makes for 4 Terran bonjwas, 3 Zerg bonjwas and 1 Protoss bonjwa) because they each have 3 major titles and they were all extremely dominant players during their peak.
We can expand the discussion and talk about current gameplay balance (related to game mechanics) as well.
Any meaningful discussion on this will require quite a bit more methodological explication, i.e. how do you determine that Boxer is greater than Fantasy? If it's accomplishments, why is that relevant to balance (of now) in any worthwhile way? Are you talking of racial balance of accomplishments as it/was during a certain period? Are you talking of balance as an ideal of sorts, something that is universal in all time periods of BW and is independent of the players? Fwiw. I think the latter is, if it exists at all, not in reach of our knowledge.
On September 11 2017 14:56 Puosu wrote: Any meaningful discussion on this will require quite a bit more methodological explication, i.e. how do you determine that Boxer is greater than Fantasy? If it's accomplishments, why is that relevant to balance (of now) in any worthwhile way? Are you talking of racial balance of accomplishments as it/was during a certain period? Are you talking of balance as an ideal of sorts, something that is universal in all time periods of BW and is independent of the players? Fwiw. I think the latter is, if it exists at all, not in reach of our knowledge.
BoxeR is ahead of FantaSy due to accomplishments, it's relevant to balance because of how dominant he was in his prime relative to his peers. Terran's have been dominant (BoxeR/NaDa/iloveoov/Flash) in almost every era except for when sAviOr and July had their runs. The rankings are to show the impact that each race and their players have had throughout the history of BW.
How is the balance from old games played on old maps with a different meta relevant to the game's current balance? For example. if Boxer beat Yellow 50 times in a row with bunker rush, what does that tell us about TvZ being played now? I don't think it's meaningful at all. I agree with Puosu's points about subjective ranking and how accomplishments are related to balance as well.
On September 11 2017 15:11 Sero wrote: How is the balance from old games played on old maps with a different meta relevant to the game's current balance? For example. if Boxer beat Yellow 50 times in a row with bunker rush, what does that tell us about TvZ being played now? I don't think it's meaningful at all. I agree with Puosu's points about subjective ranking and how accomplishments are related to balance as well.
But there's an obvious trend throughout the past 20 years. We're comparing the top players of each era relative to their peers. That's why i compared Bisu to JD and Flash. The Bisu comparison and the lack of dominant protoss players throughout the history of the game is my main argument.
Why were Flash/NaDa/iloveoov so dominant during their prime relative to the top protoss players from different eras? Why wasn't Bisu, who's one of the greatest mechanical players of all time able to be as dominant as Flash or JD? Why is there no Protoss other than Bisu among the all time great BW players?
I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves.
Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss, but he was like "yo this is too reasy, I'm going to play the massively hard race instead to give everyone else a chance" and then all these other high-skill players started doing the same with Terran and Zerg.
On September 11 2017 14:56 Puosu wrote: Any meaningful discussion on this will require quite a bit more methodological explication, i.e. how do you determine that Boxer is greater than Fantasy? If it's accomplishments, why is that relevant to balance (of now) in any worthwhile way? Are you talking of racial balance of accomplishments as it/was during a certain period? Are you talking of balance as an ideal of sorts, something that is universal in all time periods of BW and is independent of the players? Fwiw. I think the latter is, if it exists at all, not in reach of our knowledge.
BoxeR is ahead of FantaSy due to accomplishments, it's relevant to balance because of how dominant he was in his prime relative to his peers. Terran's have been dominant (BoxeR/NaDa/iloveoov/Flash) in almost every era except for when sAviOr and July had their runs.
I think it'll be though to show that Boxer's accomplishments of the past have anything to tell about the balance of the now. If your method of comparison is accomplishments (which I, too, think is a fine way) then I fail to see how that has anything much to do with balance as a ideal "universal" variable. If it is not universal, then you cannot really say anything about 2017 balance based on results of the past. The game has changed because of temporal movement, and with it, balance.
Therefore I think that from the great terran legacy you can tell only that terrans have generally been greater players. I do not think that you can say anything about racial balance (again, as a "universal variable" as opposed to something strictly bound to a certain period in BW history and relevant players' individual cognitive differences, available knowledge etc.) here. This is because it is conceivable that, for example, someone had invented mutastacking at an earlier period in history and therefore changed the course in zergs' favor.
So I think you can make a meaningful discussion about something like "the balance of a 2009 OSL of metagame Y and maps Z." That is, the claim is to be timebound and the conception of balance has to depend on what we've empirically seen in play during that period. It is this conception of a timebound and non-universal conception of balance that I think is in reach, but then this has nothing to do with the balance of the now.
I don't get exactly what are the criteria for your all time ranking, I guess there is no ambiguity when it comes to accomplishments since stats are official. Now for players that did impact the game on a gameplay level, regarding terran all players aside of Boxer are an extension of NaDa, same with sAviOr for zerg and I believe July is a bit overrated.
I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
I personally think that both Flash and Jaedong performed almost as well as they possibly could with their respective races, with the given time frame. Bisu may have matched them in terms of ability, but was far from being as complete as either of them in terms of being a competitor, and only matched his rivals when he felt like it. I don't think it's fair to categorize him on the same level of Flash, or Jaedong, when Bisu was closer to his contemporaries in terms of achievements, even if he had spikes of performances where he looked to be on the level of Flash, and Jaedong, even with his racial disadvantage.
Remember that after iloveoov, only two terran players reached multiple finals (Flash, and FanTaSy), and only one zerg player managed to reach multiple finals after sAviOr (Jaedong), whereas in the same era, three protoss players reached multiple finals (Bisu, Stork, and JangBi).
Even in the ProLeague seasons after Flash's debut, there were plenty of high performing protoss players:
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored in player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
i would appreciate if people would drop the cancer that is the word tesagi. it never was a fun little meme, idk what you have been smoking. people position themself as a 12 year old crying imba, disregarding skills completely. and now because "everybody" has been using it, it is somehow the communities opinion that tesagi is a real problem, resulting in balance discussion threads springing up like mushrooms, because we really need to have the 3452341 balance discussion thread this year.
On September 11 2017 16:26 NoS-Craig wrote: Here's a translated video of BW pros talking about Tesagi. The up-loader translated it to English best he could. I think some of you might have seen this before. Pretty good watch for people who want to see pros view on the situation.
The main issue is mech. BW is a defensive game and mech is the ultimate defensive composition. Mech 3-3 armies are extremely powerful (due to mines, siege tank attack upgrades and being able to move all your an insanely high value army with 6-7 hotkeys) and easily accessible.
JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS.
I highly doubt theres balance issues. Its more that when you look at all the top players there, all of them are era defining. Oov for instance was the main stepping stone to modern Broodwar.
Flash as well is so good at the game mechanically that he could beat anyone with any race.
To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money.
Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures: --Zergling --Marine
not this stupid Tinyland video again. why are people always posting that video, everybody seen it 10 times by now. Tinyland just used a clickbait video title and goes like "this shit is real", while the pros are joking and orchestrating this "debate", just look at sea's outfit and the way he is similing. i already explained how Tinyland/the korean community calling tesagi/gundam was 100% wrong in his other video just by simply analysing the game, because Light did 3 out of 3 things correct while jaedong did about 0-1 out of 3 things right.
On September 11 2017 16:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money.
Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures: --Zergling --Marine
That was easy.
The only thing keeping vultures from breaking the game is human limits. There's so much potential value in every single vulture it's insane, but since they are so apm intensive even progamers can only get a fraction of utility out of them. Which is enough to be one of the best units in the game anyway.
On September 11 2017 16:10 TT1 wrote: ^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored on player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
Isn't absolute skill level an absolutely terrible metric of judgement when comparing players from different eras? It wouldn't even take Bisu, By.Sun (who was said to be the top ranked protoss of his team towards the end of professional Brood War) would wipe the floor with almost every great player in history due to how advanced the meta-game evolved over the years, despite having never reached the round of sixteen in his professional career.
By that logic, Jesse Owens, one of the most accomplished track and field in history, as well as being the record holder for the 100 metre sprint for a longer duration than any other man in history, is rendered near useless judging by one of the two metrics you've mentioned, because his actual 100 metre record is actual pretty abysmal by today's standards.
Once you factor in the level of play to any significant degree, you are basically asking people to ignore players from the past. What's the point of counting Bisu's MSL trophies in 2007, when any rendition of him in the more recent past would wipe the floor with him? Bisu's best record in 2011 was the round of sixteen and the last finals he had seen was in 2008, but from an absolute skill point, he was head-and-shoulders above Bisu in 2007, despite the latter reaching three MSL finals in a row.
On September 11 2017 16:10 TT1 wrote: ^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 16:06 iFU.pauline wrote:
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored on player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
Isn't absolute skill level an absolutely terrible metric of judgement when comparing players from different eras? It wouldn't even take Bisu, By.Sun (who was said to be the top ranked protoss of his team towards the end of professional Brood War) would wipe the floor with almost every great player in history due to how advanced the meta-game evolved over the years, despite having never reached the round of sixteen in his professional career.
By that logic, Jesse Owens, one of the most accomplished track and field in history, as well as being the record holder for the 100 metre sprint for a longer duration than any other man in history, is rendered near useless judging by one of the two metrics you've mentioned, because his actual 100 metre record is actual pretty abysmal by today's standards.
Once you factor in the level of play to any significant degree, you are basically asking people to ignore players from the past. What's the point of counting Bisu's MSL trophies in 2007, when any rendition of him in the more recent past would wipe the floor with him? Bisu's best record in 2011 was the round of sixteen and the last finals he had seen was in 2008, but from an absolute skill point, he was head-and-shoulders above Bisu in 2007, despite the latter reaching three MSL finals in a row.
But if you look at the entirety of Bisu's body of work (total winrate, performance in non major tournaments like IEF etc.) you can easily make a case for him being an atypical bonjwa, more so than any other player. Overall he's had extremely good results, they just haven't been in major tournaments (OSL/MSL) like JD and Flash.
For example, did you count WCG wins in your championship ranking? Yes the final tournament isn't as hard as a regular major tournament but the Korean qualifiers are insanely hard, comparable to any major tourney.
There is only one thing I consider close to imbalanced in terran (assuming high-end pro level play) and that is the comsat station. Information limited only by time, but not resources and distance, is a terrific tool in the hands of a great progamer. I have not watched as many games as most of you have, but I have seen time and again Flash winning not because he had it easier mechanically or strategically, but because he knew what was going to happen at crucial points in the game.
And protoss is very much like guitar. Easiest to play badly.
On September 11 2017 16:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS.
On September 11 2017 16:10 TT1 wrote: ^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 16:06 iFU.pauline wrote:
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored on player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
Isn't absolute skill level an absolutely terrible metric of judgement when comparing players from different eras? It wouldn't even take Bisu, By.Sun (who was said to be the top ranked protoss of his team towards the end of professional Brood War) would wipe the floor with almost every great player in history due to how advanced the meta-game evolved over the years, despite having never reached the round of sixteen in his professional career.
By that logic, Jesse Owens, one of the most accomplished track and field in history, as well as being the record holder for the 100 metre sprint for a longer duration than any other man in history, is rendered near useless judging by one of the two metrics you've mentioned, because his actual 100 metre record is actual pretty abysmal by today's standards.
Once you factor in the level of play to any significant degree, you are basically asking people to ignore players from the past. What's the point of counting Bisu's MSL trophies in 2007, when any rendition of him in the more recent past would wipe the floor with him? Bisu's best record in 2011 was the round of sixteen and the last finals he had seen was in 2008, but from an absolute skill point, he was head-and-shoulders above Bisu in 2007, despite the latter reaching three MSL finals in a row.
But if you look at the entirety of Bisu's body of work (total winrate, performance in non major tournaments) you can easily make a case for him being an atypical bonjwa. Overall he's had extremely good results, they just haven't been in major tournaments like JD and Flash.
For example, did you count WCG wins in your championship ranking? Yes the final tournament isn't as hard as a regular major tournament but the Korean qualifiers are insanely hard, comparable to any major tourney.
Almost everybody on the list has significant non-major tournament wins during their professional years. And, no I'm not going to count joke tournaments tournaments where three professional attended to beat a bunch of random amateurs. I'm only counting tournaments that had participation from at least twenty professional players:
NaDa (4): 3rd iTV Ranking League, 4th iTV Ranking League, GhemTV StarLeague S3, KT-KTF 2003/2004 Premier League ---------------------------------------------------------- Jaedong (3): GomTV Classic S1, WCG 2009, Seoul 2007 e-Sports Festival BoxeR (3): ZZGame.com Progamer Invitational, WCG 2001, WCG 2002 ----------------------------------------------------------- Flash (2): GomTV Classic S3, WCG 2010 July (2): KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League, 7th iTV Ranking League ---------------------------------------------------------- iloveoov (1): WCG 2006 Stork (1): WCG 2007 Bisu (1): GomTV Classic S2 XellOs (1): WCG 2004
Bisu did win of smaller tournaments that a select few professionals were invited to, but that's not a sign of excellence, that's a sign of being popular enough, or not having overlapping scheduling. If you're going to count every tournament with a single digit professional player participation, YellOw has won over a dozen of those.
Bisu does have excellent win rate, and so does EffOrt. In fact, EffOrt beats the crap out of multiple championship winning zergs such as sAviOr, or July. ZerO holds the record for having the highest win rate in games played in OGN StarLeague, yet nobody thinks he is the greatest OGN StarLeague player ever.
Bisu simply has portions of his career where he can hang with some of the best the scene has ever seen, but he also has huge inconsistencies to his career, which is why Stork was much better at qualifying for the lower rounds of the individual leagues, for example. Both Flash and Jaedong stands above their contemporaries by almost all metrics of performance, whereas the it simply does not hold true for Bisu. He was an inconsistent genius, who may have looked, or felt like he was on par with Flash and Jaedong, but his results as a competitor did not overshadow his contempories, which could be said for both Flash and Jaedong by almost all metrics.
If you were curious about WCG qualifications, Stork and Jaedong were the most successful players of the modern era, qualifying for the main stage a record three times each. They are the only players in the post-XellOs era to have qualified for the main WCG tournament more than once. Bisu managed to represent his country once, and got a bronze medal on the main stage. Not bad, but nothing spectacular either. Even Kal managed a silver medal in WCG 2010.
Jaedong is a bonjwa by every possible metric anyway, its just that Flash played like a god in 2010 and outshined everyone. As for Tesagi, i think PvZ is the matchup with some real problems.
On September 11 2017 17:01 TaardadAiel wrote: There is only one thing I consider close to imbalanced in terran (assuming high-end pro level play) and that is the comsat station. Information limited only by time, but not resources and distance, is a terrific tool in the hands of a great progamer. I have not watched as many games as most of you have, but I have seen time and again Flash winning not because he had it easier mechanically or strategically, but because he knew what was going to happen at crucial points in the game.
And protoss is very much like guitar. Easiest to play badly.
Being completely honest, if Terran didn't have Scan TvP would be impossible to win. Not only because of arbiters, but if you can't see the tech you will immediately lose.
On September 11 2017 17:01 TaardadAiel wrote: There is only one thing I consider close to imbalanced in terran (assuming high-end pro level play) and that is the comsat station. Information limited only by time, but not resources and distance, is a terrific tool in the hands of a great progamer. I have not watched as many games as most of you have, but I have seen time and again Flash winning not because he had it easier mechanically or strategically, but because he knew what was going to happen at crucial points in the game.
And protoss is very much like guitar. Easiest to play badly.
Naw, naw, naw, don't get it twisted with that perverse anti-Terran rhetoric. This is how it really is: areas exposed by scan disappear all too quickly. After that, the slimy, deceitful Zerg and Protoss fuckers just alter their "revealed" game plan and you don't know what they're actually doing until you can scan again or if you have lots of scans because it's late game, you have to waste APM (which is a pretty big fucking resource) scanning and checking continuously. Meanwhile, slimy Zerg and Toss cheaters have retardedly cheap permanent map hack units in the form of overlords and observers that--get this- can move around freely showing them everything. To add insult to injury, these overpowered flying fucks get speed and sight upgrades. Last time I checked you couldn't upgrade comsat range or speed!
Edit: And as a result of having to waste your limited add-on ability by making lame-ass comsats to compensate for the lack of intel, you are no longer able to make nukes to try to overcome the massive imba, as if it weren't hard to enough to pull off nukes already.
Just look at this classic example of Protoss imba: Hiya nukes free twice killing all the OP probes and a bunch of OP dragoons and finally the OP nexus...and free still wins the game due to Protoss OP.
On September 11 2017 15:30 reincremate wrote: I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves.
Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss, but he was like "yo this is too reasy, I'm going to play the massively hard race instead to give everyone else a chance" and then all these other high-skill players started doing the same with Terran and Zerg.
You are forgetting zerg. If Boxer playded protoss he would have been stopped by zergs, plenty more than the times he got stopped by protoss players as terran. If you look back at the participation lists for OSLs, you can clearly see that protoss was the race that was struggling the most.
I think your theory of terran and zerg being more of an challenge and hence a certain type of ambitious and inner motivated player would choose them is an interesting theory. I think one should be careful of reading too much into it however because i think there are plenty of other reason to choose a certain race and if we look at TT1's reasonable list of top10 players of all time, we are talking about a very small sample of players, right? Then two plausible explanations for why there are 5 terrans (and not 3,333333) is simple chance or the theory that at the very highest level of near perfect skill, the rewards are greater as terran.
Qikz, I agree; it's just that in my opinion comsat power raises exponentially with player skill. A vulture, for example, is tremendously cost-effective, but as someone mentioned earlier, there is a definite cap at using them - they are awfully apm-intensive. Comsat interpretation has no boundary and as for mechanics, well, you can easily hotkey those. Provided progamers at this level are not just mindless clickers, I bet they're willing to sacrifice single-digit apm for information.
reincremate, buddy, I play Terran. It's just that I consider the comsat to be one of the main reasons there are several Terran bonjwas. Players with such ridiculous skill can make wonders out of almost FREE information. Overlords and observers can actually die WHILE WATCHING, one of them is a flying supply depot(therefore important, and it's made out of the same old larvae that give you units and stuff) and is comically slow initially, the other costs some gas and supply, is pretty brittle, and requires a dedicated tech tree. And is one of TWO of the race's detectors.
Then again, you are probably being ironic and I am a dumb moron, who couldn't get the joke.
And I consider the game as close to balanced as I would want it, being a total noob and only a fan of the scene. I still think maps are the primary determinants of balance.
On September 11 2017 16:10 TT1 wrote: ^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 16:06 iFU.pauline wrote:
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored on player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
Isn't absolute skill level an absolutely terrible metric of judgement when comparing players from different eras? It wouldn't even take Bisu, By.Sun (who was said to be the top ranked protoss of his team towards the end of professional Brood War) would wipe the floor with almost every great player in history due to how advanced the meta-game evolved over the years, despite having never reached the round of sixteen in his professional career.
By that logic, Jesse Owens, one of the most accomplished track and field in history, as well as being the record holder for the 100 metre sprint for a longer duration than any other man in history, is rendered near useless judging by one of the two metrics you've mentioned, because his actual 100 metre record is actual pretty abysmal by today's standards.
Once you factor in the level of play to any significant degree, you are basically asking people to ignore players from the past. What's the point of counting Bisu's MSL trophies in 2007, when any rendition of him in the more recent past would wipe the floor with him? Bisu's best record in 2011 was the round of sixteen and the last finals he had seen was in 2008, but from an absolute skill point, he was head-and-shoulders above Bisu in 2007, despite the latter reaching three MSL finals in a row.
But if you look at the entirety of Bisu's body of work (total winrate, performance in non major tournaments) you can easily make a case for him being an atypical bonjwa. Overall he's had extremely good results, they just haven't been in major tournaments like JD and Flash.
For example, did you count WCG wins in your championship ranking? Yes the final tournament isn't as hard as a regular major tournament but the Korean qualifiers are insanely hard, comparable to any major tourney.
Almost everybody on the list has significant non-major tournament wins during their professional years. And, no I'm not going to count joke tournaments tournaments where three professional attended to beat a bunch of random amateurs. I'm only counting tournaments that had participation from at least twenty professional players:
NaDa (4): 3rd iTV Ranking League, 4th iTV Ranking League, GhemTV StarLeague S3, KT-KTF 2003/2004 Premier League ---------------------------------------------------------- Jaedong (3): GomTV Classic S1, WCG 2009, Seoul 2007 e-Sports Festival BoxeR (3): ZZGame.com Progamer Invitational, WCG 2001, WCG 2002 ----------------------------------------------------------- Flash (2): GomTV Classic S3, WCG 2010 July (2): KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League, 7th iTV Ranking League ---------------------------------------------------------- iloveoov (1): WCG 2006 Stork (1): WCG 2007 Bisu (1): GomTV Classic S2 XellOs (1): WCG 2004
Bisu did win of smaller tournaments that a select few professionals were invited to, but that's not a sign of excellence, that's a sign of being popular enough, or not having overlapping scheduling. If you're going to count every tournament with a single digit professional player participation, YellOw has won over a dozen of those.
Bisu does have excellent win rate, and so does EffOrt. In fact, EffOrt beats the crap out of multiple championship winning zergs such as sAviOr, or July. ZerO holds the record for having the highest win rate in games played in OGN StarLeague, yet nobody thinks he is the greatest OGN StarLeague player ever.
Bisu simply has portions of his career where he can hang with some of the best the scene has ever seen, but he also has huge inconsistencies to his career, which is why Stork was much better at qualifying for the lower rounds of the individual leagues, for example. Both Flash and Jaedong stands above their contemporaries by almost all metrics of performance, whereas the it simply does not hold true for Bisu. He was an inconsistent genius, who may have looked, or felt like he was on par with Flash and Jaedong, but his results as a competitor did not overshadow his contempories, which could be said for both Flash and Jaedong by almost all metrics.
If you were curious about WCG qualifications, Stork and Jaedong were the most successful players of the modern era, qualifying for the main stage a record three times each. They are the only players in the post-XellOs era to have qualified for the main WCG tournament more than once. Bisu managed to represent his country once, and got a bronze medal on the main stage. Not bad, but nothing spectacular either. Even Kal managed a silver medal in WCG 2010.
Most of those tournaments had huge qualifiers that players had go through (not counting the Blizz Worldwide Invitationals). Bisu has 4 IEF titles, each of those had qualifiers and he also has a GOMTV Classic title. On top of that he also has 3 MSL titles. Championships matter, imo 3 major championships make you a bonjwa. All the players who have 3 or more major championships were extremely dominant at a certain point in their career.
In any case all this is moot, my main argument was to talk about the lack of protoss dominance (and the dominance of Terran) throughout the history of BW.. not whether or not Stork deserves to be ranked ahead of Bisu due to his consistency in major tournaments.
If you have like 10 great, dominating players thats a very small sample size. Doesn't matter if it took 20 years. Besides, they are not independent either. How many young ambitious players took terran because of boxer, the first super star of BW. Was the race distribution really 1/3? I don't see how you can make any conclusion on balance without taking those things into account.
On September 11 2017 16:10 TT1 wrote: ^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 16:06 iFU.pauline wrote:
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored on player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
Isn't absolute skill level an absolutely terrible metric of judgement when comparing players from different eras? It wouldn't even take Bisu, By.Sun (who was said to be the top ranked protoss of his team towards the end of professional Brood War) would wipe the floor with almost every great player in history due to how advanced the meta-game evolved over the years, despite having never reached the round of sixteen in his professional career.
By that logic, Jesse Owens, one of the most accomplished track and field in history, as well as being the record holder for the 100 metre sprint for a longer duration than any other man in history, is rendered near useless judging by one of the two metrics you've mentioned, because his actual 100 metre record is actual pretty abysmal by today's standards.
Once you factor in the level of play to any significant degree, you are basically asking people to ignore players from the past. What's the point of counting Bisu's MSL trophies in 2007, when any rendition of him in the more recent past would wipe the floor with him? Bisu's best record in 2011 was the round of sixteen and the last finals he had seen was in 2008, but from an absolute skill point, he was head-and-shoulders above Bisu in 2007, despite the latter reaching three MSL finals in a row.
But if you look at the entirety of Bisu's body of work (total winrate, performance in non major tournaments) you can easily make a case for him being an atypical bonjwa. Overall he's had extremely good results, they just haven't been in major tournaments like JD and Flash.
For example, did you count WCG wins in your championship ranking? Yes the final tournament isn't as hard as a regular major tournament but the Korean qualifiers are insanely hard, comparable to any major tourney.
Almost everybody on the list has significant non-major tournament wins during their professional years. And, no I'm not going to count joke tournaments tournaments where three professional attended to beat a bunch of random amateurs. I'm only counting tournaments that had participation from at least twenty professional players:
NaDa (4): 3rd iTV Ranking League, 4th iTV Ranking League, GhemTV StarLeague S3, KT-KTF 2003/2004 Premier League ---------------------------------------------------------- Jaedong (3): GomTV Classic S1, WCG 2009, Seoul 2007 e-Sports Festival BoxeR (3): ZZGame.com Progamer Invitational, WCG 2001, WCG 2002 ----------------------------------------------------------- Flash (2): GomTV Classic S3, WCG 2010 July (2): KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League, 7th iTV Ranking League ---------------------------------------------------------- iloveoov (1): WCG 2006 Stork (1): WCG 2007 Bisu (1): GomTV Classic S2 XellOs (1): WCG 2004
Bisu did win of smaller tournaments that a select few professionals were invited to, but that's not a sign of excellence, that's a sign of being popular enough, or not having overlapping scheduling. If you're going to count every tournament with a single digit professional player participation, YellOw has won over a dozen of those.
Bisu does have excellent win rate, and so does EffOrt. In fact, EffOrt beats the crap out of multiple championship winning zergs such as sAviOr, or July. ZerO holds the record for having the highest win rate in games played in OGN StarLeague, yet nobody thinks he is the greatest OGN StarLeague player ever.
Bisu simply has portions of his career where he can hang with some of the best the scene has ever seen, but he also has huge inconsistencies to his career, which is why Stork was much better at qualifying for the lower rounds of the individual leagues, for example. Both Flash and Jaedong stands above their contemporaries by almost all metrics of performance, whereas the it simply does not hold true for Bisu. He was an inconsistent genius, who may have looked, or felt like he was on par with Flash and Jaedong, but his results as a competitor did not overshadow his contempories, which could be said for both Flash and Jaedong by almost all metrics.
If you were curious about WCG qualifications, Stork and Jaedong were the most successful players of the modern era, qualifying for the main stage a record three times each. They are the only players in the post-XellOs era to have qualified for the main WCG tournament more than once. Bisu managed to represent his country once, and got a bronze medal on the main stage. Not bad, but nothing spectacular either. Even Kal managed a silver medal in WCG 2010.
Most of those tournaments had huge qualifiers that players had go through (not counting the Blizz Worldwide Invitationals). Bisu has 4 IEF titles, each of those had qualifiers and he also has a GOMTV Classic title. On top of that he also has 3 MSL titles. Championships matter, imo 3 major championships make you a bonjwa. All the players who have 3 or more major championships were extremely dominant at a certain point in their career.
In any case all this is moot, my main argument was to talk about the lack of protoss dominance (and the dominance of Terran) throughout the history of BW.. not whether or not Stork deserves to be ranked ahead of Bisu due to his consistency in major tournaments.
IEF had huge qualifier tournaments for amateur/semi-professional players, and unless you were curious about who were the best practice partners at the time, I don't think it's an apt comparison to tournaments like iTV Ranking League, or KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League that actually had a qualifying stage for professional players.
If you believe winning three major individual league championships is the be-all-and-end-all of what constitutes a bonjwa, then I can't convince you otherwise, but that's not the main issue like you said.
I would certainly agree that historically speaking, terran was the most successful race, while the protoss race was the least successful. My point was that contrasting the number one players from each of the three races becomes a flawed exercise due to the fact that Flash is not the clear number one in terms of achievements, and Bisu barely qualifies as the clear number one player of his race due to his highly inconsistent nature. You are pretending that the players you perceive to be the greatest players ever were all extreme outliers in terms of achievements, when that was simply not the case. It's an insult to NaDa to say that you can rate Bisu above him, when it's clear that they are not even on the same planet in terms of achievements.
If absolute skill is of paramount importance, then you should probably restructure the list to include the likes of Last, since he'll wreck anybody who made their mark in the distant past.
Looking at the best players of all time, a small list of individual outliers, and trying to draw balance conclusions from that is fallacious. Making threads on balance always yields the same results; the same people who cry about x will cry about x, and there will be moronic shitposts, some heated words and misleading numbers will get thrown around, and then it fizzles out until next time it's brought up.
Let's get meta here. Instead of questioning balance, let's question whether balance is even worth discussing. I think not, because what purpose does this discussion have? Whatever "conclusions" we arrive at as a result of this discussion, would we even know how to implement changes to the game to make it more "balanced?"
Let's not forget that this is always dependent on the context of maps. There have been maps that gave every race a huge advantage over some other. How does that factor into the "balance" discussion if all it takes is an extra entrance into your natural to make PvZ unplayable, for example? How can one ever examine balance in isolation, like judging a painting without a canvas?
I've gone to university professors with tons of numbers compiled by myself and Lightwip/LegalLord and there was little consensus as to what the best statistical analysis would be on the historic W/L data from BW's professional era. Data that we have already determined to be misleading in nature anyway, and demanding of a subjective knife to dice up into "meaningful" parts. In other words, this is just another futile exercise, with hot air being blown all over the place but no outcome. Looking forward to the next iteration in a month or two, it's always fun.
On September 11 2017 16:10 TT1 wrote: ^ Now look at how dominant those Terran players were during their era. The top 3 Terran players (NaDa/oov/Flash) have 17 championships compared to 7 championships from the top 3 Protoss' (Bisu, Nal_rA, Jangbi). And obviously we're not talking about a small sample size here, BW's been around for a while..
On September 11 2017 16:06 iFU.pauline wrote:
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
Those are the kind of stats we need and of course NaDa comes on top.
Well i linked the liquipedia page as my source, it has all those numbers . Like i said i mainly factored on player accomplishments but i also took individual player skill levels into consideration (in Bisu's case for example, i called him a bonjwa based on his skill level). You also have to factor in the level of play during each players prime.
Isn't absolute skill level an absolutely terrible metric of judgement when comparing players from different eras? It wouldn't even take Bisu, By.Sun (who was said to be the top ranked protoss of his team towards the end of professional Brood War) would wipe the floor with almost every great player in history due to how advanced the meta-game evolved over the years, despite having never reached the round of sixteen in his professional career.
By that logic, Jesse Owens, one of the most accomplished track and field in history, as well as being the record holder for the 100 metre sprint for a longer duration than any other man in history, is rendered near useless judging by one of the two metrics you've mentioned, because his actual 100 metre record is actual pretty abysmal by today's standards.
Once you factor in the level of play to any significant degree, you are basically asking people to ignore players from the past. What's the point of counting Bisu's MSL trophies in 2007, when any rendition of him in the more recent past would wipe the floor with him? Bisu's best record in 2011 was the round of sixteen and the last finals he had seen was in 2008, but from an absolute skill point, he was head-and-shoulders above Bisu in 2007, despite the latter reaching three MSL finals in a row.
But if you look at the entirety of Bisu's body of work (total winrate, performance in non major tournaments) you can easily make a case for him being an atypical bonjwa. Overall he's had extremely good results, they just haven't been in major tournaments like JD and Flash.
For example, did you count WCG wins in your championship ranking? Yes the final tournament isn't as hard as a regular major tournament but the Korean qualifiers are insanely hard, comparable to any major tourney.
Almost everybody on the list has significant non-major tournament wins during their professional years. And, no I'm not going to count joke tournaments tournaments where three professional attended to beat a bunch of random amateurs. I'm only counting tournaments that had participation from at least twenty professional players:
NaDa (4): 3rd iTV Ranking League, 4th iTV Ranking League, GhemTV StarLeague S3, KT-KTF 2003/2004 Premier League ---------------------------------------------------------- Jaedong (3): GomTV Classic S1, WCG 2009, Seoul 2007 e-Sports Festival BoxeR (3): ZZGame.com Progamer Invitational, WCG 2001, WCG 2002 ----------------------------------------------------------- Flash (2): GomTV Classic S3, WCG 2010 July (2): KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League, 7th iTV Ranking League ---------------------------------------------------------- iloveoov (1): WCG 2006 Stork (1): WCG 2007 Bisu (1): GomTV Classic S2 XellOs (1): WCG 2004
Bisu did win of smaller tournaments that a select few professionals were invited to, but that's not a sign of excellence, that's a sign of being popular enough, or not having overlapping scheduling. If you're going to count every tournament with a single digit professional player participation, YellOw has won over a dozen of those.
Bisu does have excellent win rate, and so does EffOrt. In fact, EffOrt beats the crap out of multiple championship winning zergs such as sAviOr, or July. ZerO holds the record for having the highest win rate in games played in OGN StarLeague, yet nobody thinks he is the greatest OGN StarLeague player ever.
Bisu simply has portions of his career where he can hang with some of the best the scene has ever seen, but he also has huge inconsistencies to his career, which is why Stork was much better at qualifying for the lower rounds of the individual leagues, for example. Both Flash and Jaedong stands above their contemporaries by almost all metrics of performance, whereas the it simply does not hold true for Bisu. He was an inconsistent genius, who may have looked, or felt like he was on par with Flash and Jaedong, but his results as a competitor did not overshadow his contempories, which could be said for both Flash and Jaedong by almost all metrics.
If you were curious about WCG qualifications, Stork and Jaedong were the most successful players of the modern era, qualifying for the main stage a record three times each. They are the only players in the post-XellOs era to have qualified for the main WCG tournament more than once. Bisu managed to represent his country once, and got a bronze medal on the main stage. Not bad, but nothing spectacular either. Even Kal managed a silver medal in WCG 2010.
Most of those tournaments had huge qualifiers that players had go through (not counting the Blizz Worldwide Invitationals). Bisu has 4 IEF titles, each of those had qualifiers and he also has a GOMTV Classic title. On top of that he also has 3 MSL titles. Championships matter, imo 3 major championships make you a bonjwa. All the players who have 3 or more major championships were extremely dominant at a certain point in their career.
In any case all this is moot, my main argument was to talk about the lack of protoss dominance (and the dominance of Terran) throughout the history of BW.. not whether or not Stork deserves to be ranked ahead of Bisu due to his consistency in major tournaments.
IEF had huge qualifier tournaments for amateur/semi-professional players, and unless you were curious about who were the best practice partners at the time, I don't think it's an apt comparison to tournaments like iTV Ranking League, or KT-KTF 2004/2005 Premier League that actually had a qualifying stage for professional players.
If you believe winning three major individual league championships is the be-all-and-end-all of what constitutes a bonjwa, then I can't convince you otherwise, but that's not the main issue like you said.
I would certainly agree that historically speaking, terran was the most successful race, while the protoss race was the least successful. My point was that contrasting the number one players from each of the three races becomes a flawed exercise due to the fact that Flash is not the clear number one in terms of achievements, and Bisu barely qualifies as the clear number one player of his race due to his highly inconsistent nature. You are pretending that the players you perceive to be the greatest players ever were all extreme outliers in terms of achievements, when that was simply not the case. It's an insult to NaDa to say that you can rate Bisu above him, when it's clear that they are not even on the same planet in terms of achievements.
If absolute skill is of paramount importance, then you should probably restructure the list to include the likes of Last, since he'll wreck anybody who made their mark in the distant past.
But i never said that and i don't have Bisu ahead of NaDa, i have JD ahead of NaDa. I only said some people MIGHT have Bisu ahead of NaDa just so we'd avoid having needless discussions over whether or not Bisu should be ahead of NaDa and vice versa (mainly just to be PC, Bisu has a lot of fans and i didn't want the thread to get easily derailed).
Letmelose: While I agree that the absolute skill is increasing over time, is the gap really that significant? I'll concede that anything before 2005 or so would be comically outdated today, but couldn't you make a case for 2010 Flash holding his own against 2017 Flash after a quick, theoretical crash course in how the metagame has evolved?
(Which I counter-intuitively believe would be fair, since otherwise 2017 Flash would have unfair information advantage simply by knowing how 2010 Flash played. In my scenario, 2010 Flash wouldn't be allowed to practice the new builds or anything, simply know about them.)
2010 Flash was a thorough-bred full time progamer with an entire team providing perfect training environment, and an unrelenting play schedule against the very best. That has got to count for something, at least?
On September 11 2017 18:25 Jealous wrote: Looking at the best players of all time, a small list of individual outliers, and trying to draw balance conclusions from that is fallacious. Making threads on balance always yields the same results; the same people who cry about x will cry about x, and there will be moronic shitposts, some heated words and misleading numbers will get thrown around, and then it fizzles out until next time it's brought up.
I think you are irrationally hating on very well-thought out discussion that promotes practical solutions to the balance problems inherent in the game. That's narrow-minded and backwards, man.
Let's get meta here. Instead of questioning balance, let's question whether balance is even worth discussing. I think not, because what purpose does this discussion have? Whatever "conclusions" we arrive at as a result of this discussion, would we even know how to implement changes to the game to make it more "balanced?"
Of course balance is worth discussing. Why else would anyone discuss it? What conclusions can we make, you ask? My answer is: very many of course! I won't try to list all of them (as I personally don't know all of them) but can share with you one important conclusion: despite super OP Protoss and Zerg imba in the form of defilers, arbiters, hydralisks, zealots, workers with greater range, buildings that heal over time on their own/have shields, etc. there have been a greater number of Terran bonjwas. That's because Boxer was a freaking genius. Then a bunch of less amazing but still pretty good SC players decided to follow in his shining example. Like Boxer himself said: the humans of course have to win in the end no matter what, just like in Starship Troopers.
Let's not forget that this is always dependent on the context of maps. There have been maps that gave every race a huge advantage over some other. How does that factor into the "balance" discussion if all it takes is an extra entrance into your natural to make PvZ unplayable, for example? How can one ever examine balance in isolation, like judging a painting without a canvas?
Any quick look at BW history makes it self-evident that they had to counterbalance the genius of Boxer, Oov and Nada by making maps that were imba against Terran. Just look up any OSL that wasn't won by those three during their era as proof. But it didn't always work out though, as we ended up with a boxer vs oov finals anyway.
I've gone to university professors with tons of numbers compiled by myself and Lightwip/LegalLord and there was little consensus as to what the best statistical analysis would be on the historic W/L data from BW's professional era. Data that we have already determined to be misleading in nature anyway, and demanding of a subjective knife to dice up into "meaningful" parts. In other words, this is just another futile exercise, with hot air being blown all over the place but no outcome. Looking forward to the next iteration in a month or two, it's always fun.
That's a lot of words, but no substance. You need to provide some evidence to back up your ideas.
Let me be serious for a second. Do you all honestly want to risk a balance patch NOW?
The game has been fine for nearly 10 years. Every race have had winners. Why would you upset everything now to try and balance something that's mostly fine?
On September 11 2017 19:25 Qikz wrote: Let me be serious for a second. Do you all honestly want to risk a balance patch NOW?
The game has been fine for nearly 10 years. Every race have had winners. Why would you upset everything now to try and balance something that's mostly fine?
Has the game really been fine? There's plenty of data that suggests otherwise. BW's been around for a long time, of course there's gonna be protoss and zerg winners. You have to look at every race as a whole to judge things properly tho.
In any case the game can be balanced around maps.. but that alone is enough to tell you that there's an inherent issue (you have to balance maps around Terran). If i had to make a balance change i honestly wouldn't know what to do, mostly in fear of breaking the game.
Does anyone really believe this game is perfectly balanced? If yes, does anyone believe that each race will stay completely balanced regardless of how high the mechanical skill of the players becomes?
Obviously the answer(s) are NO.
Terran is slightly OP. (Even if it's 2-3%)
Do we wanna mess with the balance and heritage (sacredness) of a 20 years old game? I'm not sure.
P.S. Terran is hardest on low levels, so, being slightly OP on top level is like a pat on the back for sticking with the hardest race thru all those levels and getting cheesed the fuck out in various ways. If BW was re-balanced in a way that all races were balanced on TOP level - no new player would choose Terran imo, as suddenly it's even harder on lower levels. It's way to hard to perfect to come to the top level, only to be perfectly balanced with others.
On September 11 2017 16:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS.
HAHAHAHAHA InControl would be proud
I wanted to report that aggressive shit post - but it seems being part of the staff makes it impossible to get reported, and you get a free ticket to swear and "scream"...
I had something else to contribute - but I forgot after reading that post.
On September 11 2017 20:06 niteReloaded wrote: Does anyone really believe this game is perfectly balanced? If yes, does anyone believe that each race will stay completely balanced regardless of how high the mechanical skill of the players becomes?
Obviously the answer(s) are NO.
Terran is slightly OP. (Even if it's 2-3%)
Do we wanna mess with the balance and heritage (sacredness) of a 20 years old game? I'm not sure.
P.S. Terran is hardest on low levels, so, being slightly OP on top level is like a pat on the back for sticking with the hardest race thru all those levels and getting cheesed the fuck out in various ways. If BW was re-balanced in a way that all races were balanced on TOP level - no new player would choose Terran imo, as suddenly it's even harder on lower levels. It's way to hard to perfect to come to the top level, only to be perfectly balanced with others.
Personally i think Zerg is by far the hardest race at every skill level (definitely in macro games), just because of how hard it is to manage your army and your production facilities (hatcheries) are all over the map. Zerg's hotkeys are severely taxed, way more than T and P.
Early game PvZ is tough for Toss, middgame PvZ is tough for Z, lategame PvZ is about even. Reavers are great but so is perma damage plague (assuming both players are high level players and the zerg can perfectly control his lategame army, if not Toss has the advantage). That said how many PvZ's get to that point? Every PvZ has an early game stage tho .
I don't have in depth knowledge of ZvT but statisically Zerg's been having a really tough time in modern TvZ's (+1 5 rax into mech).
We were playing a completely different game in 2003, so to factor games from so long ago to support an argument for inherent imbalance doesn't really make sense to me. Boxer played TvZ in 2001 completely differently (the "I will never expand until my main minerals run out and then float my CC to my natural" style) to Flash in 2012, they may as well have been playing different races. If someone discovered Savior's 3 hatch muta build that rendered all Boxer's 1 base shenanigans useless earlier, it looks completely different. And then you have all the Protoss suffering pre-Bisu and so on.
Not that I don't agree that they're balance issues, but I think citing bonjwas from times when we didn't have muta micro, pylon walls at expansions and so on doesn't really support an argument for inherent balance in 2017 at all. As I said, BW was a completely different game back then.
I think : medics heal too fast, tanks cost too little supply, vultures kill workers too quickly. Could make vultures deal.. 18 dmg? or 16? (3 hits to lings) Or increase hp of workers a little?^^ wouldnt be bad imo. DTs probably still should kill workers in one hit.. however having no notification is "sagi" ^^ so maybe not^^ actually I think they don't need to kill workers in one hit. They only feel weak in midgame, when detected, but what can you do. Some more hp or shield?
also I think : hydras are too weak vs M&M (because of medics) and perhaps against mutalisks. I think Mutalisks should probably be medium size.
I think reavers also kill workers too quickly (and marines), I would say reduce their aoe size and def make the scarab more reliable would be good imo.. too random. If I would say anything else is too strong with P, maybe storm damage is too fast, idk. Make it last longer and same dmg or smtg. It kills workers too quickly too, and M&M.
Qikz : risking a balance patch : I don't know. I think the game can be improved for sure, but of course doing it right is hard and there is a risk of not quite doing it right. Since its a creative thing there are many ways to do it, so it's hard to agree. It requires the designers to have strong understanding and to make strong coherent choices that really improve the game as a whole. Also problem of replays that stop working, which can be fixed if the game will load stuff from previous patch after recognizing replay version.
also I think Battlecruiser could use a dmg increase.. guardians and devourers smtg? more hp for guardians? a little more dmg for devourers? and scouts cheaper at least or more ground dmg or.. free sight upgrade.. I think swarm is too invincible, I would say maybe change it to increase armor of units or smtg.
nada is the clear #1 in my books, and i speak as someone who isn't particularly a fan of his.
there was a gap in my period of time watching of not seeing very many bisu games. i'd ended up watching for free or leta more than i would bisu's games, which compels me as much as another person talking about july to say that bisu is overrated. who was that guy on estro with the weirdest builds? that guy was underrated for gameplay, lol. see how opinions like these can be quite trashy?
but just considering meaningful impact on the game, i'd put july on par with bisu. that is a player i became a fan of (as a protoss player) because of his entire game-style. so to me, the greatest players of all time, after the most accomplished of players, are the players who produced games that had such an amazing impact on the viewer.
you could create a long list of best players of all time to then leave ambiguous ordering, and everyone would re-arrange it in their own way even if the idea were to go purely off of data.
there will be a good number of players with similar achievements, but their pathway to that success was all quite different. without a double elimination bracket, we see two stories unfold to its fullest. were there different draws and the tiniest little differences in some of the games, a career could have changed at the drop of the hat.
invariably, the game (inside and outside of it) is just about incomplete information.
just be glad that players today want to continue beating each other up at the highest level, and we're able to think back to all the good games we've seen and learned from since the earlier 2000's.
OP? south koreans are OP for being able to take this game (and most other games) so incredibly seriously.
Honestly, all this talk of people wanting balance patches worries the hell out of me.
Why risk everything that has been built over the past 10 years when there's no real actual evidence that there's any imbalance at all.
Claiming that map balance has only been to counteract Terran. That's a blatant lie. There's been maps that were removed and changed due to Zerg and Protoss being too strong also.
Claiming the top 10 are the epitomy of balance is wrong also. You should look at all the progamers across the board and base balance on that. There's a lot more Terran progamers for instance due to how popular people like BoxeR, Nada and Oov were.
It feels like the balance discussion is either people subjectively discussing what they feel is op with out anyone even close to be playing at the level where it starts to matter. (personal opinion: if there is any imbalance at foreigner level it's more likely to be prosagi).
Or hobby statisticians discussing a complex field where professors would have a hard time finding a consensus on a right method to prove tesagi.
i think it matters at all levels above beginner.. but its true what you said Qikz, looking only at the top progamers is not very.. not the statistics anyway. What happens in the game, how it happens, that's where you can see smtg, not in the statistics at the very top. You could have a game with 3 very well balanced races, but the 3 very best players are all of one race, and make a wrong assomption that this race is OP.
for me when I play the game or watch, I see things that feel OP, and things that feel weak. I think if they were tuned around, the game would be better, more fun, more fair, more skill even. But I'm not really asking for a balance patch because, I don't see ppl agreeing on anything o_o?
One issue as well, is you're using statistics based on the fact Flash for instance beat 10 no name Protoss players in proleague which will have skewed the balance statistics a lot.
A better metric would be to look at Flash vs Jaedong back then or Flash vs Stork/Bisu and looking at the winrate. They're the best players from each race. You then need to look at what maps those were actually played on.
It's why map statistics are so flawed, because it never takes into account the ELO of the players who were actually playing.
of course some things feel OP, there are meant to be power spikes to be built around. if you aren't feeling seriously outmatched sometimes, or feel that you have all the solutions, that in itself is a hallmark of an uninteresting and imbalanced game.
there are quite a few ways to separate or express yourself differently from other players of the same race. those are options that can be rated to be more or less effective than each other. i feel like that's what you're describing.
people don't agree on anything because people in majority are self-serving and are not highest tier players.
i've been playing this game for how long, and then stop playing for 5 years and come back to understand that i can't do some of the most basic builds straight off the bat.
no matter how accustomed to a game you are, it's natural to just forget details about even the things you are most passionate about.
i'm severely opposed to any balance change to the game. Watching Larva wrecking the shit out of Last and Flash in some games (i think its quite close to 50% now) is something extremely magical. Please let this magic keep happening.
On September 11 2017 21:21 Qikz wrote: One issue as well, is you're using statistics based on the fact Flash for instance beat 10 no name Protoss players in proleague which will have skewed the balance statistics a lot.
A better metric would be to look at Flash vs Jaedong back then or Flash vs Stork/Bisu and looking at the winrate. They're the best players from each race. You then need to look at what maps those were actually played on.
It's why map statistics are so flawed, because it never takes into account the ELO of the players who were actually playing.
We're not tho.. we're mainly comparing major championships won by players in different eras. Proleague games are bo1's on set maps, make's for a lot of variance.
On September 11 2017 16:47 Bakuryu wrote: not this stupid Tinyland video again. why are people always posting that video, everybody seen it 10 times by now. Tinyland just used a clickbait video title and goes like "this shit is real", while the pros are joking and orchestrating this "debate", just look at sea's outfit and the way he is similing. i already explained how Tinyland/the korean community calling tesagi/gundam was 100% wrong in his other video just by simply analysing the game, because Light did 3 out of 3 things correct while jaedong did about 0-1 out of 3 things right.
tinyland doesnt know much about the game so i dont blame him.
On September 11 2017 16:35 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: JESUS TRY THE HARD LIFE OF A ZERG. WE DONT HAVE FUCKING MAP CROSSING ARCLITE CANNONS, EVERYTHING CANNOT BE REPAIRS, WE DONT HAVE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION LIKE SPIDER MINES AND WE CERTAINLY AS FUCK DONT HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAUSE ANY GAME THAT HAS THAT SUCKS LIKE COMMAND AND CONQUER 3. ALSO, WE DONT HAVE FLYING BUILDINGS OR MOTHERFUCKING DEFENSIVE STRUCTURES THAT SHOOT AIR AND GROUND AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND COST 100$ FUCKING MINERALS. OUR WORKERS DIE WHEN THE WIND BLOWS TOO HARD AND SURE AS FUCK DONT HAVE FUSION CUTTERS. WAIT? YOU HAVE GOLIATHS THAT SHOOT ACROSS THE MAP AT AIR UNITS AND CAN BE REPAIRED AND ARE CHEAP? JESUS WHO MADE THIS GAME.
JESUS I WISH I HAD 5-6 of THE ALL TIME BEST PLAYERS TO MODEL MY GAME AFTER. WAIT? WERENT THEY ALL FUCKING TERRAN? WE HAVE NADA, BOXER, OOV, FLASH, MIDAS and XELLOS ALL KICKING ASS FOR YEARS AT A TIME WHILE WE GET FUCKING FAT ASS JULY WHO SUCKS NOW, YELLOW WHO ALWAYS FUCKING SUCKED BUT NOBODY KNEW FOR A BIT AND WE FINALLY GOT SAVIOR BUT THEN THEY DRESSED HIM LIKE HITLER SO HE SUCKED AND NOW WE HAVE JAEDONG BUT THAT KID CANT FIGURE OUT THE NEW KOREAN MAPS THAT DONT MATTER. JESUS FUCK IT MUST BE NICE TO HAVE PLAYERS THAT SPAN DECADES AND DOMINATE THE ENTIRE TIME. GIMME SOME OF THAT PLEASE.
HEY WHAT ABOUT BUILDINGS DO YOU LOSE A SCV EACH TIME YOU MAKE ONE? NO. WHAT THE FUCK? WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU CAN ACTUALLY TELL THEM TO RETURN TO MINING AFTER THEY ARE DONE BUILDING? I THOUGHT THAT AUTO MINING GARBAGE WAS FOR HACKERS OR BAD GAMES. TERRAN'S CAN DO IT? FUCK THAT SOUNDS LIKE A SWEET DEAL. EACH TIME WE (zerg) HAVE TO BUILD WE TELL ONE OF OUR SACRED MINERS "HEY FUCK YOU TIME TO DIE" AND THEY DO. THEN WE GET A FUCKING BUILDING. WHICH, HALF THE TIME ISNT ENOUGH: WE HAVE TO PAY MOREE FUCKING MONEY TO GET IT TO DO SOME SHIT LIKE DICK THE GROUND OR SPRAY PISS IN THE AIR.
WHEN YOU SELECT RANDOM, WHAT GAME SCREEN DO YOU GET IN BETWEEN? ANY GUESSERS? THAT'S RIGHT: TERRAN. EVEN THE FUCKING GAME KNOWS WHAT YOU SHOULD OBVIOUSLY HAVE CHOSEN WHEN YOU FORGOT TO SELECT TERRAN AND GOT RANDOM. FUCKING INSANE BIAS.
HAHAHAHAHA InControl would be proud
I wanted to report that aggressive shit post - but it seems being part of the staff makes it impossible to get reported, and you get a free ticket to swear and "scream"...
I had something else to contribute - but I forgot after reading that post.
It's a reference to a pretty infamous post made years ago by InControl. It's topical enough and funny.
On September 11 2017 15:30 reincremate wrote: I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves.
Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss, but he was like "yo this is too reasy, I'm going to play the massively hard race instead to give everyone else a chance" and then all these other high-skill players started doing the same with Terran and Zerg.
This is a really naive way to look at things.
In pretty much any competitive avenue the best want to be the best. They will pick the option that gives them the greatest chance to win. This is human nature. The idea that people pick the worst choice to "challenge" themselves is nonsense and shows a lot of anti-Protoss bias.
People don't pick Terran to "challenge" themselves, they pick it because it has the greatest room for mechanical (and probably strategic) improvement and therefore the highest skill ceiling. Combine the mechanical and strategic potential of the race and the cultural popularity (with several of the early greats being Terran e.g. Boxer, Oov, NaDa), and there's a clear reason that 1) Terran is the most popular professional race and 2) the greatest players have all played Terran.
Protoss has always been known as "easiest to learn, hardest to master". Protoss mechanics leave the race more limited tactically than Terran, and as you continue to increase the mechanical and strategic skill of players, there's only so much more innovation that can go into the race compared to Terran.
I think you have to look at it from this perspective,
Protoss vs Terran is entirely reliant on you getting the jump on the Terran player as Protoss (assuming equal macro from both players). That applies whether it be DT, Reaver, Arbiters or stopping a push. Based on that fact alone, so long as the map allows Terran to be safe without being punished economically (even if it takes a high level of skill to be safe), the Terran player can guarantee a win against the Protoss player with a perfect game, whereas the Protoss player cannot.
Now, what you can argue is that's a map issue or that this level of skill is unattainable, but if it's almost attainable, then the Protoss player is reliant on a certain degree of luck?
And if it is a map issue, can you make a map where the Protoss player can exploit Terran without it being unwinnable for Terran?
There's no question it's imbalanced, it's just a question of what is imbalanced and if it can be fixed. Is it the maps? Is it the Early Game? Mid Game? Late Game? Skill cap? There are a lot of factors and you wouldn't want to fix the wrong one.
Personally, I think Gateway units should have a late game upgrade to reduce cost because they are far inferior late game to Terran and Zerg base tech (which both have upgrades to improve their base units), but I'm not sure if that's really a problem at the top level and I'm not educated enough in the game to propose an alternate solution.
On September 11 2017 22:05 Eywa- wrote:Personally, I think Gateway units should have a late game upgrade to reduce cost because they are far inferior late game to Terran and Zerg base tech (which both have upgrades to improve their base units), but I'm not sure if that's really a problem at the top level and I'm not educated enough in the game to propose an alternate solution.
I think this sounds like an over engineered SC2 type solution.
Not that I'm actually in favor of implementing any balance changes (because it would break 16 years of continuity and have unforeseen consequences), but I would like to see top players try a custom map where the underused, interactive abilities are buffed into existence but not into dominance.
I would begin by making a few abilities pre-researched such as hallucination and burrow, and removing the Covert Ops add-on (science facility would hold all its functions by default). Mind Control could be a little bit cheaper, but it kinda needs to suck in order not to break the game.
I might even nerf or remove uninteractive abilities like lockdown and maelstrom to compensate for the increased importance of dark archons and ghosts. If burrow turns out to be too strong in ZvP, I might lower the cost/research time of psionic storm to help combat hydra all-ins.
Of course this would just be for fun and I do not actually think this should be in a patch as it would probably wreck the game. At the end of the day I would just like to see some more innovative strategies involving hallucination, burrow and nukes.
I personally believe that the equilibrium between the three races constantly changes depending on the level of the game. The state of the balance found at amateur level is not the same for the state of balance found at a semi-professional level, and it is ever changing for various tiers of professionals also. I also have the opinion based on viewing team melee games, that the state of balance found in games displaying the highest possible level of human play, and games showing superhuman levels of play are vastly different also. So the answer to the racial imbalance, which invariably exists at every level at least to some degree, is to "get better".
However, it would be foolish to argue against the fact that the terran race found the greatest success found at professional level of play, with the sample size ranging from the top one hundred to two hundred players for any given era. This is a fact not only going by the number of championship titles, but individual league attendance rates, and ProLeague win rates. Although the imbalance may not be large, and it is a stupid idea to think that numbers taken from the entire spectrum of professional Brood War games is representative of any single era, it is equally stupid to say that the terran race did not find greater success than the other two races if you look at things from a historical context.
The reason for this may be:
1) There are more terran players to start with, meaning that there is a greater pool of talent to choose from.
Disagree: Protoss players have the greatest overall player pool. I am not certain about the exact number of semi-professionals (amateur players who were good enough to win the Courage Tournament, but had yet to be drafted into a professional team), but I'm pretty sure that the number of semi-professional protoss players were pretty respectable. I remember ZeuS (ex-coach of OGN Sparkyz) once saying that his team didn't bother to chase after semi-professional protoss players because semi-professionals of the other two races were more valuable even if they were objectively worse at the time.
2) There is an inherent imbalance with the power level of the terran race being in sync with overall aptitude for the game.
Disagree: If that was the case the terran race would be stomping the other two races even more so when streamers gather around to play team melee. Turns out protoss is the strongest race when played under a team melee setting. I do not have any good evidence for this, but go to any stream and ask streamers with extensive team melee experience which race is best suited for team melee, I bet you the answer would be protoss every single time. Superhuman multi-tasking rewards protoss far more than it rewards the terran race.
3) Flash is overpowered and is skewing all the statistics:
Disagree: People complaining about the terran race started long before Flash even made his debut. He just happens to be at the epicentre for all this discussion going on currently, not only because he is the best player, who also happens to be a terran player, like a lot of players who dominated the scene for prolonged periods of time. There's been similar discussions involving NaDa, and iloveoov also.
4) Other races just haven't found the appropriate break-through that the terran race has found:
Sort of agree: Statistics for the zerg race in general soared after the mutalisk stacking micro-management, and this new discovery was so powerful that maps that failed to account for the power of the mutalisk stacking micro-management were immediately branded as god-awful maps. Before the optimization of early game builds, and the discovery of late-mech, the zerg race had temporarily displaced the terran race as the most broken race out of the three. Now we're back to square one.
5) Terran race is the strongest race at the professional level:
Sort of agree: The imbalance may not be huge, but digging up obscure reasons to why this game is absolutely perfectly balanced at the professional level seems kind of dishonest to me. Games are hard to balance. Maps are hard to balance. People have been fine tuning balance at professional level of play for over a decade, and the results have been pretty good in general, but balance has never been quite perfect even when there were professional map makers working in conjunction with professional teams and players, and since the game is ever changing, maps that were considered really well balanced back then aren't always considered balanced now. It's a constant struggle, but it has never been bad enough for people to seriously ask for a new patch, since, let's be frank, the odds of patch fucking the balance up even more is a more likely outcome than magically solving the delicate issue of balance between the three races that has been worked on continuously on the same patch from every possible side for nearly twenty years.
If you look at the current Global ladder standing, it seems clear that Terran has some kind of advantage, at least in ladder play. Or is it because in korea there are just a lot more terran players than other races? There could be other reasons than Tesagi to this but in my personal opinion there is some truth to Tesagi
It's amazing what the hivemind effect can do... This is like watching mass hysteria, artificially creating a problem that is not even there via over-analysis.
On September 11 2017 15:30 reincremate wrote: I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves.
Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss.
....... lol, Boxer did originally play Protoss I believe he said in one of his Interviews, then he switched to Terran. BoxeR also was one of the most creative players withi his Terran dropship signature style, not to include that PvZ / PvT can be pretty damn hard at the higher levels the Korean pros play at, your entire statement is pretty much void. =\
On September 11 2017 16:26 NoS-Craig wrote: Here's a translated video of BW pros talking about Tesagi. The up-loader translated it to English best he could. I think some of you might have seen this before. Pretty good watch for people who want to see pros view on the situation.
don't get why people keep posting this. This guy has no idea what he is talking about. These koreans are joking around and appealing to casual base who has been calling terrans taesagi because of flash.... There is no taesagi according to top zergs. They all say other terrans can be destroyed except flash.
Also balance doesn't even affect us amyway. Protoss should shut the hell up. They are beneficiaries of low ceiling requirement. Its only when you reach 2500+ mmr does it suddenly become hard. Thats when you just dont 1a2a3a4a with maximized effiency anymore. You actually have to do what other two races have been doung to win
The only balance issue with the game that I have is that scouts cost too much and take too long to build. If they cost something like 200 minerals and 100 gas with a 60 second build time, this game would be completely balanced...
On September 11 2017 17:26 Morbidius wrote: Jaedong is a bonjwa by every possible metric anyway, its just that Flash played like a god in 2010 and outshined everyone. As for Tesagi, i think PvZ is the matchup with some real problems.
why? current data shows from ladder protoss beats zerg until mmr reaches mmr? also zerg has these A level zergs that shits on sone toss like stork, tyson, amd etc. Lot of bad toss that skew the stats
On September 11 2017 19:25 Qikz wrote: Let me be serious for a second. Do you all honestly want to risk a balance patch NOW?
The game has been fine for nearly 10 years. Every race have had winners. Why would you upset everything now to try and balance something that's mostly fine?
Has the game really been fine? There's plenty of data that suggests otherwise. BW's been around for a long time, of course there's gonna be protoss and zerg winners. You have to look at every race as a whole to judge things properly tho.
In any case the game can be balanced around maps.. but that alone is enough to tell you that there's an inherent issue (you have to balance maps around Terran). If i had to make a balance change i honestly wouldn't know what to do, mostly in fear of breaking the game.
Maybe just a scout buff? :3 /s
I don't think maps affecting balance is an inherent issue. I would always expect a flat featureless map to be imbalanced.
I have written about this somewhere before, but one of the larger issues is that interesting, featureful maps tend to favour Terran. Terran like narrow passages, Terran like cliffs, Terran can do everything they want on 3 gas. And our big problem comes in when we realise Protoss like narrow passages vs Zerg, but wide areas vs Terran. Protoss like easy bases vs Zerg, but dislike Terran having easy bases vs Protoss. So whenever we try to help Protoss vs Zerg, we have trouble to not hurt Protoss vs Terran. Whenever we try to help Zerg vs Terran, we have trouble not to hurt Protoss vs Zerg. Protoss are the trouble race because they want one thing vs Zerg and another vs Terran. Terran want the same thing vs Zerg and Protoss, Zerg want the same thing vs Protoss and Terran. Zerg have less trouble vs Terran than Protoss have trouble vs Zerg, so we always end up doing things that help Protoss a little vs Zerg that give Zerg a harder time vs Terran, rather than things to help Zerg vs Terran that would make Protoss vs Zerg even more challenging.
If you can't think of strategies to solve this problem of how the races function, you can't solve the slight imbalance. You can try to think of units Protoss use vs Zerg but not Terran, units Zerg use vs Terran but not Protoss, units Terran use vs Protoss but not Zerg, but you're sort of ignoring a fundamental issue. We could make corsairs accel faster or have higher top speed so protoss lose them less vs scourge, we could make lurker aspect research faster so the 5 rax timing isn't as strong, but these changes are too specific to what is a more general problem.
IMO basically the only way to solve this completely is if you decide to make maps that are only meant for one matchup and mirrors. PvZ maps, TvZ maps, PvT maps. Then you eliminate the frustration of dealing with the Protoss. But that isn't as romantic or fun, and frankly that slight imbalance is just a part of the game that makes it so endearing to fans. We want good representation among the races, but we also love a good underdog story, where players are forced to pull out special strategies to deal with a map that is not balanced in a matchup that is difficult. Normally the better players just wins with better mechanics, but in the finals you see two players at the top of their form, and you see something more special. I think you would lose something about BW if you tried to make it perfectly balanced, because if you did why would you ever need a Boxer, a Nal Ra, a Zero or any player known primarily for creativity? Much motivation for surprising the opponent would be gone if things were completely fair.
It's very hard to separate the "best" players from the "greatest" players. Nada can be considered the second greatest terran player of all time due to his myriad trophies and longevity, but his peak skill level didn't compare to someone like Fantasy. If you put young Nada in the time machine from Back to the Future and have him start playing at the same time as Flash, what would happen? Impossible to say.
In terms of the best players ever (where "best" is measured by peak level) I'm pretty comfortable with a Flash/JD/Bisu/Stork/Fantasy top 5, in some order. Fitting those five into a single ranking alongside the great players of old isn't worth the effort, in my opinion.
On September 11 2017 17:26 Morbidius wrote: Jaedong is a bonjwa by every possible metric anyway, its just that Flash played like a god in 2010 and outshined everyone. As for Tesagi, i think PvZ is the matchup with some real problems.
why? current data shows from ladder protoss beats zerg until mmr reaches mmr? also zerg has these A level zergs that shits on sone toss like stork, tyson, amd etc. Lot of bad toss that skew the stats
well the stats right now are still bugged, on my account I receive a little less than 1 ghost match per match played that affect my MMR (pretty much unable to progress in mmr despite winning more than losing^^), I assume lots of other players too. Rly annoying me btw, it's been a month, still doesn't work, I almost stop playing.
On September 11 2017 23:00 Bacillus01 wrote: If you look at the current Global ladder standing, it seems clear that Terran has some kind of advantage, at least in ladder play. Or is it because in korea there are just a lot more terran players than other races? There could be other reasons than Tesagi to this but in my personal opinion there is some truth to Tesagi
1 Korea `.`;; 3188 terran 197 76 3 2 Korea organ[[[ 3153 terran 196 104 0 3 Korea vBisuv 3128 protoss 136 49 1 4 U.S. East lllillil 3098 terran 109 19 0 5 Korea By.SnOw1 3083 protoss 195 95 0 6 Korea moolgogi^^ 3073 terran 110 41 0 7 Korea wGm.Shine 3069 zerg 200 122 1 8 U.S. West Scan 3061 terran 84 16 0 9 U.S. West lllllilli 3027 terran 67 11 0 10 Korea IlIIlllIlIlIII 3016 terran 91 16 0 11 Korea SKT_Pantasy 3013 terran 93 30 0 12 Korea Bright[KaL] 3011 terran 105 29 2 13 Korea inguh^^ 2995 terran 87 28 0 14 Korea moksaeggi 2986 terran 213 130 0 15 Korea 205DA 2982 terran 81 13 0 16 Korea IIIlllllIIIIIIl 2979 terran 75 22 0 17 Korea nocopyright 2961 terran 92 25 0 18 Korea mae=99 2945 zerg 88 28 0 19 Korea masc 2938 zerg 174 97 2 20 Korea skehahffj0 2922 terran 152 69 2
Korea has always loved Terran. It was one of the reasons I loved playing versus Koreans is I got to play my favorite match up (zvt) a lot. On Fish server most of my games were ZvT. On Korean server in SC2 same thing. When I see Korean zergs laddering, feels like they get zvt a lot. Hell I watch Artosis ladder and he gets TvT a shit ton.
Terran so good, but it's fun to play against (until that mech switch comes anyway ).
On September 11 2017 23:51 Demurity wrote: It's amazing what the hivemind effect can do... This is like watching mass hysteria, artificially creating a problem that is not even there via over-analysis.
(you might have lost your mind, or you might argue what is artificial)
Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
On September 11 2017 15:30 reincremate wrote: I think it's because Protoss is the easy race, so most really skilled players will pick Terran and Zerg to challenge themselves.
Boxer could have won like 12 OSLs if he played Protoss.
....... lol, Boxer did originally play Protoss I believe he said in one of his Interviews, then he switched to Terran. BoxeR also was one of the most creative players withi his Terran dropship signature style, not to include that PvZ / PvT can be pretty damn hard at the higher levels the Korean pros play at, your entire statement is pretty much void. =\
You see, that just proves my point. Boxer would have dominated the scene at least 15 times harder than Flash did and is doing if he stuck with P, but he knew that would just ruin esports since no one would want to watch one guy pwn everyone forever and ever, so he switched to T and left the protoss innovation to mortals like Nal_ra (no disrespect to mortals like Nal_ra). He took a dive for esports, but he managed to do pretty well anyway.
On September 11 2017 17:26 Morbidius wrote: Jaedong is a bonjwa by every possible metric anyway, its just that Flash played like a god in 2010 and outshined everyone. As for Tesagi, i think PvZ is the matchup with some real problems.
why? current data shows from ladder protoss beats zerg until mmr reaches mmr? also zerg has these A level zergs that shits on sone toss like stork, tyson, amd etc. Lot of bad toss that skew the stats
well the stats right now are still bugged, on my account I receive a little less than 1 ghost match per match played that affect my MMR (pretty much unable to progress in mmr despite winning more than losing^^), I assume lots of other players too. Rly annoying me btw, it's been a month, still doesn't work, I almost stop playing.
you still cant deny toss has best win rate at lower midnlevels
it's all about the t1 units. T>Z>P>T. Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces. Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units. See, it's all about the initial t1 units.
If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
I don't think there's any real way to prove Terran is imbalanced statistically, there's so many variables with maps, player skill is all over the place going back in time, etc. If you have the top few players of all time (relative to their peers) you have what boxer/nada/iloveoov/flash and savior/jaedong as the bonjwas? If we assume the races are pretty balanced then what is the chance the top 6 players will be 2 of each race? what are the odds it's 4t/2z/0p? Maybe the very top players just happened to play Terran and a couple Zergs, in an alternate universe some of those guys pick Protoss and are they just as dominant with P? We can't know obviously but my point is the sample size of the best players isn't big enough. As far as I remember there was never a period where there were like >3 players of one race dominating, at the top of the Kespa rankings. Most of those guys had some kind of paradigm changing advantage mechanically, does that say much about balance if a player comes along with better mechanics than everyone else and dominates for a few months or a year while the rest of the field catches up or dies off?
If you enlarge the group to the top 10 like in the OP or top 15 does it even out? Ya it does, there's a bunch of Protoss players that I think could be regarded in the top ~15 of all time but not in the top 6 (again relatively, not absolute skill) Bisu, rA, Reach, Jangbi, Stork. I know there's been a lot of results posted in the thread already but to add another, of the 15 players that made >3 starleague finals (there's only a few who made 2 finals, and a bunch of 1 timers) there's 5 of each race, yes the Protosses won less titles between them but that's such a small sample even still, those finals hinge on a single game or even a single engagement or whatever, it doesn't really say anything about balance. So balance depends on what parameters you are using to measure it, a lot.
I know some people don't have much of a grasp of statistics, considering a lot of people whine when on a new map a matchup goes like 5-0 in one races favor, or a top player loses to a lesser player on it... it was the map! fucking imba piece of shit! Maybe they don't know the history of BW with some unorthodox maps where one race had an advantage and the other had to figure out a way around it because the "standard" way to play didn't work. Maps like Katrina, Monty Hall etc. But yes of course there were maps that were just imbalanced for certain match ups as well.
Observation: Zergs have won more titles and had more champions in the last ~6 years of pro bw (2007-end of 2012) than Terran, Flash 6 titles, fantasy/forgg/mind 1 each, for 9 total . Zergs - Jaedong 5 titles, effort/hydra/calm/luxury/july/ggplay for 11 total. This is all after the PvZ revolution that made the match up much more balanced. If it wasn't for Flash, Jaedong would probably have won even more titles tilting it even more in Zergs favor. Had Jaedong not existed, the opposite could be said. Protoss during this time period of roughly modern BW had 6 titles, Bisu 3, Jangbi 2, Stork 1. It's still not really enough sample size to say much about balance, it's possible that Flash and Jaedong are just the 2 best players to play the game(absolute skill wise) had they picked another race maybe they would have been just as successful, maybe more or less, again we can't know unforunately. This is not counting the Gom tournaments or WCG Koreas in this time period but you could play with that too, not sure why the community basically discounts those things in favor of starleagues but whatever.
The fact that Flash is basically the consensus GOAT i think plays a huge part in Terran being seen as imbalanced by some people. It's been mentioned by multiple people in the thread already. Fantasy had a lot of success but only ended up getting one starleague title, he may have been shafted by the timing of the sc2 switch coming on the back of 3 consecutive osl finals. No other terrans in the last few years really achieved anything, Mind/ForGG had their 1 off tournament wins and went back to being human pretty fast.
Jaedong being the clear #2 or 1a or whatever you want to call him in absolute skill, well #3 and 4 are considered to be Bisu and Stork right? Those 4 were considered to be the S class for a long time at the height of skill in BW with Fantasy/Effort/Jangbi right below them. 2 p in the top 4 but they weren't as strong as 1/2
Post Kespa it is hard to say much about balance because the skill level dropped quite a bit, whoever were the best players to stick around dominated (Sea, Killer, hero) Once other big names started coming back like Bisu/Effort and later Flash/JD/Stork etc the dominant players changed pretty quickly once they got back into practicing full time. It wasn't about what race you played just about who was the best player. Which I think it is and always has been, once you get to a high enough level that P is not actually imbalanced (because of mechanics, and bad players limitations mechanically which doesn't have much to do with this discussion.)
People make some false assumptions in my view. T is the best race at high levels? Well Flash is the GOAT so it's easy to assume this but what if the sc2 transition never happened? Flash was not nearly as dominant in 2011-12, and was more on par with Bisu/Fantasy for his overall win rate, maybe he would have been overtaken completely, Jaedong already had been seemingly by that point. If we are assuming the overall skill of the top players is slowly rising over time and the skill ceiling will never be hit how can you say anything about balance at a skill level we have never seen or may never see?
The ladder is a pretty poor indicator for balance at any level really, at the top well you can see the list, there's a bunch of multiple accounts of the same people, scan is #8 on the ladder and it's pretty safe to say he's not that good compared to others in ASL for example. He has nothing to do all day but ladder or practice games with his amateur clan, top pros are preparing for ASL or doing their thing streaming and making bank.
I was very happy to hear Pete Stilwell say that balance patch/discussions were never even on the table. I'm know this is a discussion thread and that's fine, but you see the tesagi "meme" a ton on peoples streams, probably mostly from people who don't even play the game or are very familiar with it. Seems there's some sincerity behind the meme though from a lot of people which just equates it to whining, I guess that's something that comes from other communities moreso than BW, I don't know but it's really annoying. Just like when the 1a2a3a EZ race stuff was going on way back when, it's whining and it's annoying to a lot of people including myself. Ok I feel like I'm rambling like a madman but I needed to say something, I think it's the influx of newer users who come from other communities where balance complaints and patching is a thing is getting to me lol.
Yeah but this is TT1, a guy who played as semi-pro (pro?) whos the one coming in here to make a balance thread, not some random from sc2 who knows nothing about the game.
EDIT: also, flash is a player that practices so hard that others just cant fathom that level of effort to get to that skill level and maintain it. That also plays into why hes so good, not because of the race. Same with a player like kobe bryant, he willed himself to be one of the best players ever through sheer willpower.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
How is reaching OSL finals in 2004 and 2005 "early success"?
How is innovationg and revolutionising tactical play and micro lead to "pioneer of cheese"?
"I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great."
Should we not honour and respect the people that laid important stepping stones for everyone else to take advantage of? Do you think it was easy to cut through the jungle of early BW and find a successful path to victory? To be an original thinker and find solutions in the chaos?
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
you're wrong. Larva has good zvz now hes not the old larva.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
you're wrong. Larva has good zvz now hes not the old larva.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
you're wrong. Larva has good zvz now hes not the old larva.
His game vs. Killer was underwhelming at best.
A BO loss that inevitably would lose him the game in long rush distance 2 player map? I chalk a good chunk of that game to a 12 hatch > 12 pool gas over his skill.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Post kespa is not as fair of a comparison since protoss didnt have any good protoss until the return of players like stork, rain, best... so that statistic is pretty heavily skewed imo.
On September 12 2017 05:23 FlaShFTW wrote: Yeah but this is TT1, a guy who played as semi-pro (pro?) whos the one coming in here to make a balance thread, not some random from sc2 who knows nothing about the game.
EDIT: also, flash is a player that practices so hard that others just cant fathom that level of effort to get to that skill level and maintain it. That also plays into why hes so good, not because of the race. Same with a player like kobe bryant, he willed himself to be one of the best players ever through sheer willpower.
If you're responding to me then yes, I know who TT1 is and it is kind of funny a foreign Protoss is making the thread about tesagi but it's clear he's doing it from the viewpoint of Korean pros at the highest level, as the discussion should be. He also started the thread with some attempt to provide some starting points for discussion, not balance whining like erggg vultures so cheap! comsat imba, etc.
The point of my post is that what is perceived as balance changes with the skill level of the absolute top players because they are delving into uncharted territory as time goes on. The GOAT has to play one race, he happens to play terran but we can't prove that is the reason he is great, or rather the reason that he is slightly better than #2. The #2 player does as well, it might be a different race than #1 player (it is if we agree that player is Jaedong.) , so how can we say Terran is imbalanced when there's one player who is dominating with it and all the other Terrans might do ok, but nothing notably above the #2 zerg or #2 protoss in absolute skill. Maybe Flash is just that slightly better than Jaedong? Maybe he had some luck go his way in their finals vs each other, it's such a small sample of games and we can see if you take their entire careers vs each other it's virtually 50/50, even then it's not a big sample. It is not a game of perfect information and there is a lot more luck in the game than I think most people realize or would like to admit.
If the top few players in aboslute skill ALL played Terran then maybe you can look at racial balance actually being a problem, or if NO Protoss player was anywhere near the top, but I think it's pretty agreed upon by the community that Bisu is #3 and Stork is #4, If we expand the list out to top 20, 30 or whatever it gets more and more balanced which could point to the fact the game is pretty well balanced, and the biggest deciding factor is a players skill, experience and preparation, it's just impossible to say that their race plays a part or if it does, how much of a part does it play?
All this feels kind of stupid considering we know that maps play a massive part in balance and those are changing very quickly in the Kespa days, before any kind of balance can really be established or new builds can be developed. Many of those maps were thrown out after 1 or 2 starleague seasons which is such a short time to develop new builds or establish a decent sample size to determine balance. I think most people who've been around for a while I think don't want to see any kind of balance changes, but if balance is something that needs to be addressed then it's done by the map pool.
On September 12 2017 04:37 shall_burn wrote: it's all about the t1 units. T>Z>P>T. Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces. Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units. See, it's all about the initial t1 units.
Zealot+dragoon isn't really the reason why terrans mech against protoss.
On September 12 2017 04:37 shall_burn wrote: it's all about the t1 units. T>Z>P>T. Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces. Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units. See, it's all about the initial t1 units.
Zealot+dragoon isn't really the reason why terrans mech against protoss.
This guy probably said verbatum what tinyland said in his "meta" video. What he forgot to say was that reavers and storm make short work of mnm which is why terran mechs to avoid that
On September 11 2017 14:47 TT1 wrote: I'm sure everyone can agree that the best player of each race is Flash, JD and Bisu. That said, if you look at their individual accomplishments it's clear that Bisu is way behind JD and Flash.
Are really having this "all the bonjwas were terran" conversation again?
On September 11 2017 14:47 TT1 wrote: I'm sure everyone can agree that the best player of each race is Flash, JD and Bisu. That said, if you look at their individual accomplishments it's clear that Bisu is way behind JD and Flash.
Are really having this "all the bonjwas were terran" conversation again?
Just a starting point for the discussion. OP is an attempt to provide facts/data.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Okay using Bisu as an example was bad since he actually is the best protoss and I think of him as the flash of protoss and very close to flash's level of play. I should have used some of the other top players instead. It is strange that he hasn't won more. Bisu is the only example I can think of in all of starcraft that actually "supports" the P underpowered theory. Honestly, I don't think that is the case at all, my own opinion on the fact that he hasn't won more, is because he is very inconsistent. When Bisu plays at his max level, he is more impressive than Flash's max level, but the problem is that Flash is almost always close or on max level, while Bisu is either on that God tier level, or he is just playing like a standard korean pro. That is a very very bad thing for winning tournaments.
When it comes to the BO1 thing, I didn't watch the sSak vs Stork game, so can't comment on that. sSak vs Last, I never said that sSak couldn't beat Last, since that was a normal TvT where he ended up going for a sort of all in doom drop, and it worked, so what? I only used the example of Last vs Stork, because it showcases the imbalance in PvT, not in a million years would a terran win vs a protoss in that match, if the tables had been turned on number of mistakes/damage taken.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Okay using Bisu as an example was bad since he actually is the best protoss and I think of him as the flash of protoss and very close to flash's level of play. I should have used some of the other top players instead. It is strange that he hasn't won more. Bisu is the only example I can think of in all of starcraft that actually "supports" the P underpowered theory. Honestly, I don't think that is the case at all, my own opinion on the fact that he hasn't won more, is because he is very inconsistent. When Bisu plays at his max level, he is more impressive than Flash's max level, but the problem is that Flash is almost always close or on max level, while Bisu is either on that God tier level, or he is just playing like a standard korean pro. That is a very very bad thing for winning tournaments.
When it comes to the BO1 thing, I didn't watch the sSak vs Stork game, so can't comment on that. sSak vs Last, I never said that sSak couldn't beat Last, since that was a normal TvT where he ended up going for a sort of all in doom drop, and it worked, so what? I only used the example of Last vs Stork, because it showcases the imbalance in PvT, not in a million years would a terran win vs a protoss in that match, if the tables had been turned on number of mistakes/damage taken.
What? Your second paragraph makes no sense to me. Are you saying that if Last didnt make those mistakes that Stork still would have won 99% of the time?
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: If you are going to discuss game balance, you have to look at it at this present time. Bringing in nada, boxer, iloveoov etc makes no sense, because if we sent larva, effort, jaedong back in time to play those guys with the knowledge they have of the game now, they would win every single game so easily it wouldn't even be funny to watch. So why would you even bring those days up? People were very far away from the highest skill ceiling back then, no point in bringing it up in balance talks.
Is the highest skill ceiling still far away? Maybe, maybe not.. But it has never been higher than now, so that's what we have to work with, unless someone knows a way to travel to the future.
Now, as for the hinting at Terran being too strong, I think it's better to look at the players, rather than their race. My personal opinion is that Flash is just so good, that he makes Terran seem stronger than it actually is, and I actually predict that if Flash played Protoss or Zerg, he would make them seem even stronger than he makes Terran seem now. Just look at a matchup where balance is not an issue, TvT. Flash is absolutely crushing every Terran on the planet, yeah Last can take him out online sometimes, but when it really matters, he is just way too strong. Flash crushed the second best Terran(Last) in the previous ASL 3-0. Whenever he plays the matchup without balance as an issue, he dominates all others of the same race, and have do so for a very very long time. He had the highest win streak with 22 wins in TvT in a row.
Now the question is, does Bisu dominate in PvP? Does Larva(who beats flash regularly online in real macro games), dominate in ZvZ? No, Larva get's trashed in ZvZ all the time, but somehow he is able to even sometimes dominate Flash in ZvT, so I guess Terran is too strong?
I could go on forever, but this is how I feel atleast..
The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
Does Bisu dominate PvP? Have you seen his PvP when he streams? Yes he does, look at his post KeSPA era winrate:
And you're actually talking about a BO1 group stage match? sSak beat Stork in a game where Stork had a huge econ lead AND he also beat Last, is sSak considered the 2nd best Terran in the world? We're talking about championship winning players/bonjwas that have dominated the game throughout the history of BW.. not just a single BO1 group stage match.
Okay using Bisu as an example was bad since he actually is the best protoss and I think of him as the flash of protoss and very close to flash's level of play. It is strange that he hasn't won more. Bisu is the only example I can think of in all of starcraft that actually "supports" the P underpowered theory. Honestly, I don't think that is the case at all, my own opinion on the fact that he hasn't won more, is because he is very inconsistent. When Bisu plays at his max level, he is more impressive than Flash's max level, but the problem is that Flash is almost always close or on max level, while Bisu is either on that God tier level, or he is just playing like a standard korean pro.
When it comes to the BO1 thing, I didn't watch the sSak vs Stork game, so can't comment on that. sSak vs Last, I never said that sSak couldn't beat Last, since that was a normal TvT where he ended up going for a sort of all in doom drop, and it worked, so what? I only used the example of Last vs Stork, because it showcases the imbalance in PvT, not in a million years would a terran win vs a protoss in that match, if the tables had been turned on number of mistakes/damage taken.
I actually don't think Last played that match smartly at all, let's analyze what happened. Last pushes out earlier than usual and takes out 2 expansions (to punish Stork's failed reaver tech). That's great, he's sitting on 3 bases vs 2 bases and Stork is forced to long distance mine while remaking his expos. In turn Last loses his tank count (and he didn't trade well with them when Stork dropped on them at his 3rd) which delays him from re-pushing out again.
So what does Last do with his eco advantage to capitalize on the fact that Stork is on 2 bases and has to get his eco back up again? Well nothing, he sits in his base until both players are maxed out and Stork has his expos up again. He didn't even try to push his lead by getting 2-1 to setup for his following push (and everyone knows the strength of Terran mech is upgrades).
When he does decide to attack he pushes out with 1-0 upgrades at a time where he should have easily been 2-1, that's the edge he should have gained from the eco advantage he had over Stork. So the end result of Last's initial push when he took out 2 expansions is this: he moves out again with a maxed out army and 1-0 upgrades (on 3 bases) vs a maxed Protoss who's taking his 5th.. which isn't a good spot for Terran. Then this happened:
Had Last not attacked at all and did a standard 11:30 2-1 timing he would have been in a better position than the 200/200 position he was in in that game.
I agree with most of your review of the match TT1, but it only strengthens my position. The build Last did was meant to push that early, it's basically: make tanks instead of vultures, take 3rd as quick as possible, and get to the 7 factory +1 timing attack. Stork's utter failure of the reaver and speed upgraded shuttle, only makes the timing push even stronger. Last pushes out, takes out 2 bases of stork. Storks response: counter attack with his dragoons, they don't do much at all.
My point is, how much does a terran have to do to win? Being very greedy and getting away with it, toss completely fails his speed shuttle/reaver, has nothing to defend the timing attack because of the two previous situations, ends up doing a dragoon counter attack that does very little, and loses 2 bases. Why the hell is it still possible to win in the protoss position, that's my question. As I said, a terran would never be able to get back from so many mistakes.
Last lost 9 tanks to kill the third, and killed several dragoons/zealots in the process, that is not the best trade, but it should not be the reason to lose a game.
I was thinking "these guys are taking this tongue-in-cheek balance discussion satire thread a little bit too far" and then I realized this was all a serious discussion.
On September 12 2017 04:37 Kare wrote: The washed up Stork even took out Last(the second best Terran in the world) in ASL today, after Last was more greedy than scrooge mcduck and got away with it, Stork suicided his speed shuttle with reaver, got crushed by the timing push, lost 2 bases, and still ended up winning the game with 200/200 supply compared to Last's 100.
You oversimplify to the point of misrepresentation. It was equal parts series of errors for Last and cunning from Stork. Last missed that 1'o expansion after seeing nothing in the nat. Then he focused too much on the original nat attack, helped no less by Stork's misdirection, that Stork's lone hero DT was having a tank party all by himself. Stork was a huge disadvantage at that point that suicide and evening things at zero was the best move, and so he did. Last restarted with zero tanks and 2.5 based. While Stork rolled in with 4 base eco.
On September 11 2017 19:25 Qikz wrote: Let me be serious for a second. Do you all honestly want to risk a balance patch NOW?
The game has been fine for nearly 10 years. Every race have had winners. Why would you upset everything now to try and balance something that's mostly fine?
Has the game really been fine? There's plenty of data that suggests otherwise. BW's been around for a long time, of course there's gonna be protoss and zerg winners. You have to look at every race as a whole to judge things properly tho.
In any case the game can be balanced around maps.. but that alone is enough to tell you that there's an inherent issue (you have to balance maps around Terran). If i had to make a balance change i honestly wouldn't know what to do, mostly in fear of breaking the game.
Maybe just a scout buff? :3 /s
I don't think maps affecting balance is an inherent issue. I would always expect a flat featureless map to be imbalanced.
I have written about this somewhere before, but one of the larger issues is that interesting, featureful maps tend to favour Terran. Terran like narrow passages, Terran like cliffs, Terran can do everything they want on 3 gas. And our big problem comes in when we realise Protoss like narrow passages vs Zerg, but wide areas vs Terran. Protoss like easy bases vs Zerg, but dislike Terran having easy bases vs Protoss. So whenever we try to help Protoss vs Zerg, we have trouble to not hurt Protoss vs Terran. Whenever we try to help Zerg vs Terran, we have trouble not to hurt Protoss vs Zerg. Protoss are the trouble race because they want one thing vs Zerg and another vs Terran. Terran want the same thing vs Zerg and Protoss, Zerg want the same thing vs Protoss and Terran. Zerg have less trouble vs Terran than Protoss have trouble vs Zerg, so we always end up doing things that help Protoss a little vs Zerg that give Zerg a harder time vs Terran, rather than things to help Zerg vs Terran that would make Protoss vs Zerg even more challenging.
If you can't think of strategies to solve this problem of how the races function, you can't solve the slight imbalance. You can try to think of units Protoss use vs Zerg but not Terran, units Zerg use vs Terran but not Protoss, units Terran use vs Protoss but not Zerg, but you're sort of ignoring a fundamental issue. We could make corsairs accel faster or have higher top speed so protoss lose them less vs scourge, we could make lurker aspect research faster so the 5 rax timing isn't as strong, but these changes are too specific to what is a more general problem.
IMO basically the only way to solve this completely is if you decide to make maps that are only meant for one matchup and mirrors. PvZ maps, TvZ maps, PvT maps. Then you eliminate the frustration of dealing with the Protoss. But that isn't as romantic or fun, and frankly that slight imbalance is just a part of the game that makes it so endearing to fans. We want good representation among the races, but we also love a good underdog story, where players are forced to pull out special strategies to deal with a map that is not balanced in a matchup that is difficult. Normally the better players just wins with better mechanics, but in the finals you see two players at the top of their form, and you see something more special. I think you would lose something about BW if you tried to make it perfectly balanced, because if you did why would you ever need a Boxer, a Nal Ra, a Zero or any player known primarily for creativity? Much motivation for surprising the opponent would be gone if things were completely fair.
I like this post a lot. Gets to the heart of why balancing this game is so tricky.
Do you think the race balance would be overall better in proleague than in the individual leagues? Because there, teams can choose who to play on a given map, so if a map is really bad for a given race they just wouldn't play it. That's sort of like your idea of having maps meant only for one matchup. Admittedly not every team could field top players from all 3 races to cover all the maps, but it still seems like you'd get better balance data there than in the individual leagues, where you have no control over what maps you play, and one bad map/game is all it takes to eliminate a player.
My feeling is that yes, Terran is the best overall, but only by a tiny amount. People make the mistake of comparing races unit by unit- like "zealots cost 100 but only do 16 damage, while vultures cost 75 and do 20 damage + mines, so Terran imba". Terran probably does have the best units, but this game is more than just units. The best feature of Protoss is its bases- they mine faster, one probe builds everything, cannons defend everything, buildings are compact, and there are lots of cheesy proxy possibilities. The best feature of Zerg is the hatchery/larva system, which lets them effortlessly switch what kinds of units they produce, store up larva for a sudden burst of production (like the first muta group), recover quickly if they're macro slips, and hide/disguise what kind of tech they're going for. It's hard to quantify this stuff vs the dps and cost effectiveness of Terran units, but it really does make a big difference, and for all levels of players.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
How is reaching OSL finals in 2004 and 2005 "early success"?
How is innovationg and revolutionising tactical play and micro lead to "pioneer of cheese"?
"I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great."
Should we not honour and respect the people that laid important stepping stones for everyone else to take advantage of? Do you think it was easy to cut through the jungle of early BW and find a successful path to victory? To be an original thinker and find solutions in the chaos?
A guy posted after you, saying Boxer should be number 1 or 2, overall.
What I know I can say... is he did absolutely nothing since I started playing the game. All he did was ruin games. Omg, there would be so much hype going into every single boxer game. And what would he do? Oh, he would try to proxy rax Oov and everyone else.
Casuals love this guy, but anyone who actually appreciates good SC probably hates this guy. The guy couldn't even make an A-team on any team, once people figured out how to stop all-ins. He had zero macro and his games were pathetic.
So sick of early success trumping everything. Flash could dominate for the next 20 years straight and someone would say, hey how about that one guy who won a championship while no one knew what APM was. How bout that guy. Man he was the best ever. Give me a break.
So insulting to everyone that plays Terran. No one even remembers Midas, and Boxer could only dream of being that good... I don't know how these guys don't smack talk him.
I just did a quick tally of the last 2 pages of his TLPD stats. 30-50 his last 80 games. Overall, he lives off T vs Z and has a sub 50% in T vs P (hard matchup, though). I'd love to know his proxy rax stats. Give maxblack a time machine and he might be the next BW Bonjwa.
Oh how I hate this "only macro games are real/good games" attitude. If you love starcraft you love all kind of games, not just the ones you deem skillful. Boxers strategies are legendary and he managed to stay a relevant player throughout the ~10 year run he had as a professional brood war player, and last time I checked he spent the vast majority of that on the a team of skt/air force ace. For how much you seem to admire oov, you should love boxer just as much for discovering oov. There is a reason oov was sad about beating boxer in the osl finals... I'm not even saying that boxer is the best ever, I would say nada and flash are really the only two guys in the race for that title, but give the man some damn respect and don't treat him like trash. And this is even ignoring everything he did for the game as an esport, there is a reason they call him the godfather of esports...
On September 12 2017 11:40 Lorch wrote: Oh how I hate this "only macro games are real/good games" attitude. If you love starcraft you love all kind of games, not just the ones you deem skillful. Boxers strategies are legendary and he managed to stay a relevant player throughout the ~10 year run he had as a professional brood war player, and last time I checked he spent the vast majority of that on the a team of skt/air force ace. For how much you seem to admire oov, you should love boxer just as much for discovering oov. There is a reason oov was sad about beating boxer in the osl finals... I'm not even saying that boxer is the best ever, I would say nada and flash are really the only two guys in the race for that title, but give the man some damn respect and don't treat him like trash. And this is even ignoring everything he did for the game as an esport, there is a reason they call him the godfather of esports...
Here is the problem... Anyone can dominate early on if they choose to all-in every game. It takes more time to figure out how to stop them than it does to execute them. That's why Huk didn't own everyone for life. Once people figure out how to stop all-ins, you have to be able to macro to some degree or else you have to retire. The greatest player ever isn't forced to retire...
All of you guys should be ashamed. Short sample or not, Fantasy managed to achieve over 60% in every matchup and was pretty much the only Terran consistently taking games off Flash, and we're just going to claim Boxer is better cause he did some cool stuff. That's sad.
Going by overall winrates would be a much better indicator than introducing RIDICULOUS amounts of bias and fan girlism. Anytime you're ranking Boxer ahead of real players, it's time for a better metric.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
I think this is pretty damn unfair to BoxeR. Pure skill, of course he doesn't matchup, but his impact on the game is so far above someone like Midas (who was a really good terran), that it's just absurd to even compare them.
It's like dismissing early scientific or mathematical pioneers just because some random phd student in their field likely knows more about the subject than they ever did.
I kind of agree with the PvZ bit (although I think Nal_rA knew how to play PvZ, but wasn't the mechanical monster that someone like Bisu is).
EDIT: Also, it's been a while, but my memory of the Boxer vs Oov OSL final was that it was an incredibly close series, and that's edging towards modern era. Anyway, greatest ever he definitely wasn't. Most important starcraft player, however, almost definitely?
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
I think this is pretty damn unfair to BoxeR. Pure skill, of course he doesn't matchup, but his impact on the game is so far above someone like Midas (who was a really good terran), that it's just absurd to even compare them.
It's like dismissing early scientific or mathematical pioneers just because some random phd student in their field likely knows more about the subject than they ever did.
I kind of agree with the PvZ bit (although I think Nal_rA knew how to play PvZ, but wasn't the mechanical monster that someone like Bisu is).
As someone who got into SC later, I just think it's SUPER unfair to act like those who won first are the best ever, meanwhile players like Flash were like 10 years old and hadn't even played. It's not fair.
It's like if I just started playing SC 2 and got top 10 GM, I don't want to hear about a guy who has played 10 years and is rank 50000 now, but is the greatest ever since he was rank 5 in Beta.
No one is copying boxer. No one. People are trying to win games. If there is ANYONE who should have "what they've done for the game" strengthen their position on the podium, it's Oov. This is a macro game, and he was the best at his time, by far. He's the guy who was inspiring everyone.... He's the guy who was a lot better than Boxer and had even more of an impact... yet... Boxer won first.
As for Boxer vs Oov, I'm still peeved. So peeved. There was the dumbest amount of hype ever for Boxer vs Oov, on rush hour, and I believe Boxer tried to in base proxy rax Oov.
Every game, you'd fool yourself. You'd fall for the hype. You'd be thinking, I must be an idiot, cause I'm pretty sure Boxer is just going to cheese my fav player, and it will be a lame 4 minute game. But, you'd think why would everyone suck this guy off so much and be so hyped for it if that would happen?
Without fail, epic fail. Hate boxer fans more than anything.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
I think this is pretty damn unfair to BoxeR. Pure skill, of course he doesn't matchup, but his impact on the game is so far above someone like Midas (who was a really good terran), that it's just absurd to even compare them.
It's like dismissing early scientific or mathematical pioneers just because some random phd student in their field likely knows more about the subject than they ever did.
I kind of agree with the PvZ bit (although I think Nal_rA knew how to play PvZ, but wasn't the mechanical monster that someone like Bisu is).
As someone who got into SC later, I just think it's SUPER unfair to act like those who won first are the best ever, meanwhile players like Flash were like 10 years old and hadn't even played. It's not fair.
It's like if I just started playing SC 2 and got top 10 GM, I don't want to hear about a guy who has played 10 years and is rank 50000 now, but is the greatest ever since he was rank 5 in Beta.
No one is copying boxer. No one. People are trying to win games. If there is ANYONE who should have "what they've done for the game" strengthen their position on the podium, it's Oov. This is a macro game, and he was the best at his time, by far. He's the guy who was inspiring everyone.... He's the guy who was a lot better than Boxer and had even more of an impact... yet... Boxer won first.
As for Boxer vs Oov, I'm still peeved. So peeved. There was the dumbest amount of hype ever for Boxer vs Oov, on rush hour, and I believe Boxer tried to in base proxy rax Oov.
Every game, you'd fool yourself. You'd fall for the hype. You'd be thinking, I must be an idiot, cause I'm pretty sure Boxer is just going to cheese my fav player, and it will be a lame 4 minute game. But, you'd think why would everyone suck this guy off so much and be so hyped for it if that would happen?
Without fail, epic fail. Hate boxer fans more than anything.
Professional Brood War reached its highest point with BoxeR. More tournaments were hosted because of BoxeR. More companies took interest in professional Brood War because of BoxeR. More people became aware of competitive Brood War because of BoxeR than any other single player in history. Presidents, celebrities, the military, and multi-billionaires started to care about e-Sports because of BoxeR. BoxeR could have rested on his laurels, but did everything he could to create a legacy that went beyond himself.
Everybody sucks given enough time and number of potential usurpers. BoxeR ensured his fate as someone who would eventually suck by actively promoting the structure of professional teams, doing everything he could to make competitive Brood War a mainstream content, and inspiring a whole generation young Korean adults to try to be like him, or maybe even become greater than him. Being outshined was his legacy.
If Flash and BoxeR switched their date of birth, I would be willing to bet any number of money that we wouldn't even be having this wretched conversation right now. One of the legacies created by BoxeR he personally wouldn't be proud of, unfortunately.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
I think this is pretty damn unfair to BoxeR. Pure skill, of course he doesn't matchup, but his impact on the game is so far above someone like Midas (who was a really good terran), that it's just absurd to even compare them.
It's like dismissing early scientific or mathematical pioneers just because some random phd student in their field likely knows more about the subject than they ever did.
I kind of agree with the PvZ bit (although I think Nal_rA knew how to play PvZ, but wasn't the mechanical monster that someone like Bisu is).
As someone who got into SC later, I just think it's SUPER unfair to act like those who won first are the best ever, meanwhile players like Flash were like 10 years old and hadn't even played. It's not fair.
It's like if I just started playing SC 2 and got top 10 GM, I don't want to hear about a guy who has played 10 years and is rank 50000 now, but is the greatest ever since he was rank 5 in Beta.
No one is copying boxer. No one. People are trying to win games. If there is ANYONE who should have "what they've done for the game" strengthen their position on the podium, it's Oov. This is a macro game, and he was the best at his time, by far. He's the guy who was inspiring everyone.... He's the guy who was a lot better than Boxer and had even more of an impact... yet... Boxer won first.
As for Boxer vs Oov, I'm still peeved. So peeved. There was the dumbest amount of hype ever for Boxer vs Oov, on rush hour, and I believe Boxer tried to in base proxy rax Oov.
Every game, you'd fool yourself. You'd fall for the hype. You'd be thinking, I must be an idiot, cause I'm pretty sure Boxer is just going to cheese my fav player, and it will be a lame 4 minute game. But, you'd think why would everyone suck this guy off so much and be so hyped for it if that would happen?
Without fail, epic fail. Hate boxer fans more than anything.
Like I said, Boxer pretty much singlehandedly forged the Starcraft progaming scene and decided not to overdo his awesomeness lest he turn the whole thing into a fringe personality cult for one dude, so he showed off some badass micro that everyone tried to mimic for years to follow, won a few tournaments, laid some foundational building blocks for the future strategic meta (without revealing too much, thus allowing other players to slowly discover new aspects of the game and further its development) and then continued to play entertaining Starcraft without owning everyone too hard by winning too many games, especially the poor Protosses who were struggling.
It's not just that he could have won at least 20 OSLs if he ketp playing Protoss or if the map-makers didn't try to rig the game against him by adding silly gimmicks like easily holdable natural expansions and maps with third bases, it's that he didn't need to. Instead he managed to have the much more significant accomplishment of letting the world see what real uber micro looks like before it realized "oh wait we can just make more barracks and win by making bigger armies lol". By the time that realization set in, it was already done; the beauty of the bunker rush and marines dancing against lurkers had already become inextricable threads woven into the fabric of the esports universe. That's why Slayer_S_Boxer is the greatest of all time (I mean oov, nada, flash, fantasy are all alright, I guess, but you can't even compare them to Boxer)
Great post Letmelose. But I think you missed the most important part of Boxers legacy (which admittedly was destroyed by the match fixing scandal and blizzard): Every single male Korean has to go to the military. In a game like Starcraft where everyone practices so much, 2 years of no PC can often be the end of a career. The only three ways I know to get out of military service are: Leave Korea and never return, have a health condition (like saviors leg) or win an olympic gold medal. Boxer created Airforce Ace and in doing so gave progamers a chance to keep playing and practising during their military service. That to me will always be Boxers greatest achievement. And probably the saddest thing to be destroyed by blizzard + match fixing.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
I think this is pretty damn unfair to BoxeR. Pure skill, of course he doesn't matchup, but his impact on the game is so far above someone like Midas (who was a really good terran), that it's just absurd to even compare them.
It's like dismissing early scientific or mathematical pioneers just because some random phd student in their field likely knows more about the subject than they ever did.
I kind of agree with the PvZ bit (although I think Nal_rA knew how to play PvZ, but wasn't the mechanical monster that someone like Bisu is).
As someone who got into SC later, I just think it's SUPER unfair to act like those who won first are the best ever, meanwhile players like Flash were like 10 years old and hadn't even played. It's not fair.
It's like if I just started playing SC 2 and got top 10 GM, I don't want to hear about a guy who has played 10 years and is rank 50000 now, but is the greatest ever since he was rank 5 in Beta.
No one is copying boxer. No one. People are trying to win games. If there is ANYONE who should have "what they've done for the game" strengthen their position on the podium, it's Oov. This is a macro game, and he was the best at his time, by far. He's the guy who was inspiring everyone.... He's the guy who was a lot better than Boxer and had even more of an impact... yet... Boxer won first.
As for Boxer vs Oov, I'm still peeved. So peeved. There was the dumbest amount of hype ever for Boxer vs Oov, on rush hour, and I believe Boxer tried to in base proxy rax Oov.
Every game, you'd fool yourself. You'd fall for the hype. You'd be thinking, I must be an idiot, cause I'm pretty sure Boxer is just going to cheese my fav player, and it will be a lame 4 minute game. But, you'd think why would everyone suck this guy off so much and be so hyped for it if that would happen?
Without fail, epic fail. Hate boxer fans more than anything.
Professional Brood War reached its highest point with BoxeR. More tournaments were hosted because of BoxeR. More companies took interest in professional Brood War because of BoxeR. More people became aware of competitive Brood War because of BoxeR than any other single player in history. BoxeR could have rested on his laurels, but did everything he could to create a legacy that went beyond himself.
Everybody sucks given enough time and number of potential usurpers. BoxeR ensured his fate as someone who would suck by actively promoting the structure of professional teams, and inspiring a whole generation young Korean adults to try to be like him, or maybe even become greater than him. Being outshined was his legacy.
If Flash and BoxeR switched their date of birth. I would be willing to bet any number of money that we wouldn't even be having this conversation right now.
First replay I was shown was of Boxer. I had no idea there was a pro scene. Like, I get it. But, I still think it's really insulting to act like he was a better player than... pretty much any other Terran. It's disingenuous.
I watched the video that detailed the ELO rankings from 1999-2012. I was expecting to see Boxer owning every early year. Man... you can't even watch that video and come away feeling like Boxer was any better/different than anyone else. Who I was surprised by was Nal_Ra. I didn't realize he was still at the top, after I started.
At the end of the day, I was a Terran player... and... if I wanted to get better or improve... Boxer was pretty much the last guy on earth I would want to watch, unless it was for "micro tricks."
I don't believe in arbitrary best players. What time you were good is very arbitrary. It's like the Kyrie Irving trade in basketball where the logic given was "he's a super star." Once people get carried away with labels and "intangibles," people become delusional real quick.
Keep lists more win rate centric and you will be more in-line with reality. If Midas were to do FBH dances after every win and have more of a personality, I'm sure he'd be on everyone's top 5 lists. Thus... let's be real.
boxer is not the "best" player of all time. no one claims he was the highest skill because obviously the newest players are best because people get better all the time. he's the "greatest" of all time because he's had the most impact on the game
On September 12 2017 12:28 rauk wrote: boxer is not the "best" player of all time. no one claims he was the highest skill because obviously the newest players are best because people get better all the time. he's the "greatest" of all time because he's had the most impact on the game
Win rates. The worst pro gamer right now could be waaaaaay better than anyone from 2004, but their win rates would still suck. You can thank Boxer for getting you into SC, but you can't thank him for making you good at anything.
So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time? I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer. Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer?
On September 12 2017 12:28 rauk wrote: boxer is not the "best" player of all time. no one claims he was the highest skill because obviously the newest players are best because people get better all the time. he's the "greatest" of all time because he's had the most impact on the game
Win rates. The worst pro gamer right now could be waaaaaay better than anyone from 2004, but their win rates would still suck. You can thank Boxer for getting you into SC, but you can't thank him for making you good at anything.
It's official then.
1) ZerO is the greatest OGN StarLeague player of all time. 2) Horang2 is the greatest PvP player of all time. 3) SnOw is the greatest PvT player of all time. 4) EffOrt is the second greatest zerg player of all time. 5) GoRush was the best player in the world in 2004.
By the way, as for the Elo video you pointed out, you do realize that the data taken to create that graph is mostly from TLPD and YGOSU right? You do realize that data from the earlier days are incredibly incomplete, and it's down right stupid to make assumptions purely from that video without having any context, right?
Otherwise Bisu in 2011 was one of the greatest players of time, despite having failing to make it past the round of sixteen even once since 2009? Study your history before trying to stir up controversy with your limited insight.
On September 12 2017 12:28 rauk wrote: boxer is not the "best" player of all time. no one claims he was the highest skill because obviously the newest players are best because people get better all the time. he's the "greatest" of all time because he's had the most impact on the game
Win rates. The worst pro gamer right now could be waaaaaay better than anyone from 2004, but their win rates would still suck. You can thank Boxer for getting you into SC, but you can't thank him for making you good at anything.
You realize that players like Stork, Sea, Bisu were playing BW back in 2005 right? That's when BoxeR finished 2nd in an OSL. Do you consider those guys bad players in today's game? You have to evaluate players based on their peers from the same era. Obviously the general skill level is gonna get better as time goes on.. that happens in every sport.
On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote: So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time? I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer. Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer?
Thanks for asking.
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Hiya 10. Androide (my "boxer pick") or Last
I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote: So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time? I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer. Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer?
Thanks for asking.
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick")
I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
Going by your own rules, Leta should be #3 on that list by default. His 2008-2010 skill level was much higher than oov's in 2004-2006.
On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote: So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time? I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer. Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer?
Thanks for asking.
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick")
I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
oov should be 10 at best on your list and leta should be 3rd after fantasy cuz of his PL skill. nada wasn't as good as bogus or last by 2010 so
On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote: So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time? I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer. Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer?
Thanks for asking.
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick")
I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
Going by your own rules, Leta should be #3 on that list by default. His 2008-2010 skill level was much higher than oov's in 2004-2006.
There is nothing more telling about how impressive a Terran is than their T vs P numbers. Zerg is a pinata for good Terrans... and to think someone had to proxy rax them and send scvs every game? Come on. T vs P, on the other hand, takes a player who is all-around good and smart.
Leta is a 50% T vs P player, who is more in the mold of Boxer (won with wonky strats, mostly wraiths). I'm a big Xellos fan, too, but as mentioned, I have to give the edge to the better T vs P players.
And, you're putting words in my mouth by the way, as I made it pretty clear that win rates and ELO discrepancies are more important than overall skill. But, you have to keep in mind that no one had a clue how to play SC, early on. Dominating then was a lot more realistic than now.
Anyone who can watch that ELO rating video and come to the conclusion that Boxer is more substance than hype/myth is smoking something good.
On September 12 2017 04:37 shall_burn wrote: it's all about the t1 units. T>Z>P>T. Marines&medics are better than hydras and lings, that's why zerg has to get t2-t3 units to fight terran t1 forces. Hydras and lings are better than zealots and dragoons, protoss needs hts, reavers and even sairs for scouting Zealots and dragoons are stronger than terran t1 (this one is tricky though, but non-the-less). The bulk of protoss army is zeal goon, and to fight that terran needs factory units. See, it's all about the initial t1 units.
Zealot+dragoon isn't really the reason why terrans mech against protoss.
This guy probably said verbatum what tinyland said in his "meta" video. What he forgot to say was that reavers and storm make short work of mnm which is why terran mechs to avoid that
Nah, this thought just came to my head lately by itself, and I was seeking for a place to share it ^^ The second point is legit, though
So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play? Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well.
On September 12 2017 12:32 Lorch wrote: So please why don't you present your own list of like the top 10 terrans of all time? I really can't see how Boxer/Oov/Nada/Fantasy/Flash/Xellos would not all be auto picks for such a list. You make it sound like only the current top players matter and anyone who came before them is worth nothing. Does Grrrs OSL mean nothing? Oov became pretty irrelevant once his style got figured out. You could break him down to a guy who was only good at making lots of units and attack moving them across the map like you do with boxer. Are you honestly trying to convince us that Midas should be ranked higher than Boxer?
Thanks for asking.
1. Flash 2. Fantasy 3. Oov (second in my heart) 4. Nada 5. Sea 5. Midas 6. Xellos 7. Innovation 8. Leta 9. Last 10. Androide (my "boxer pick")
I could see boxer being 8-10. Cheese is strong. I "dislike" how no one ever mentions Androide, though. When I played, he was the only non Korean Terran winning games vs Koreans. One of the best non Koreans ever, yet... no one even wants to remember he played. That was my non Korean inspiration.
Going by your own rules, Leta should be #3 on that list by default. His 2008-2010 skill level was much higher than oov's in 2004-2006.
There is nothing more telling about how impressive a Terran is than their T vs P numbers.
According to whom? And does this stay true for PvZ and ZvT? Can't wait for Yellow[ArnC] to be be put above July!
On September 12 2017 13:49 Lorch wrote: So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play? Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well.
I followed Terran. If I made a list of another race, I'd probably replicate you guys and say some ridiculous stuff like Reach is the best Protoss ever cause he is "manly." He won the first tournament I ever saw. He's the reason this game still exists. You know, crazy stuff like that.
"According to whom?" Me. And anyone who has played Terran should feel the same. Hiya is pretty much the only non super elite Terran to manage respectable numbers vs Toss. If we were to just worship good T vs Z, let's put Forgg in the top 3. After all, he won a star league, too.
On September 12 2017 13:49 Lorch wrote: So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play? Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well.
You've proved your point. The guy can't even stay true to his own flawed logic, as BoGus' all-time peak ELO versus protoss, coincidently his only truly noteworthy match-up, is lacking even compared to BoxeR's all-time peak ELO versus protoss.
What is it with terran players who can't execute proper bionic plays to save his mother's life, thinking that pumping mass units off multiple factories after copying a professional player's build, is somehow all that matters in this world? I get that these professionals played a vital role in boosting an amateur player's ego about his own Brood War skills, but seriously we don't need to milk several pages worth of pure garbage just for the hell of it.
On September 12 2017 13:49 Lorch wrote: So in a list about the greatest of all time where one would consider tournament results, impact on the meta, proleague performance, contributions to the scene etc. your only measurement is ELO (which as someone else mentioned is super flawed as records from the first couple of years of BW are pretty bad) and your personal preference for macro play? Your terran list is hilarious enough, please do us a favour and post top 10s for zerg and protoss as well.
You've proved your point. The guy can't even stay true to his own flawed logic, as BoGus' all-time peak ELO versus protoss, coincidently his only truly noteworthy match-up, is lacking even compared to BoxeR's all-time peak ELO versus protoss.
What is it with terran players who can't execute proper bionic plays to save his mother's life, thinking that pumping mass units off multiple factories after copying a professional player's build, is somehow all that matters in this world? I get that these professionals played a vital role in boosting an amateur player's ego about his own Brood War skills, but seriously we don't need to milk several pages worth of pure garbage just for the hell of it.
At least maxblack knows he has people who are ready to crown him the best SC 2 player. I saw him win a game with a 3 gate all-in once. Oh, it was genius. No one had ever done it. That's awesome. Keep telling the story of how awesome it is for the rest of eternity.
All of his plays were so awesome. Let's relive the hype: www.youtube.com Remember kids, it's smart to cheese people who are better than you. If you have enough flair, you can even convince people that you're better. After all, you won.
On September 12 2017 13:56 playa wrote: "According to whom?" Me. And anyone who has played Terran should feel the same. Hiya is pretty much the only non super elite Terran to manage respectable numbers vs Toss. If we were to just worship good T vs Z, let's put Forgg in the top 3. After all, he won a star league, too.
Sorry, who mentioned worshiping good TvZ? Every matchup is important. TvP isn't the measuring stick of terran ability just because you say so.
Remember kids, it's smart to cheese people who are better than you. If you have enough flair, you can even convince people that you're better. After all, you won.
It's almost like you want to be seen as someone who's ahead of the curve in your outlook when really you're just coming across as someone who maybe just lost some ladder games in less than ideal ways. That or BoxeR's trash and everyone but you is stupid... yeah that must be it.
On September 11 2017 15:52 Letmelose wrote: I will talk only about achievements, the only metric that can be vaguely compared between players from different eras. I will discuss the results of legendary players in individual leagues that had continuous presence across all eras (OGN StarLeague/KPGA Tournament/MSL). KPGA Tournaments started in 2002, so people like BoxeR will be shafted slightly, and MSL got cancelled earlier than the OGN StarLeague, so people who were doing well towards the end of professional Brood War such as FanTaSy will be shafted slightly also.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
5 terran players, 3 zerg players, and 2 protoss players.
As you can see, terran players are always dominating the all-time lists no matter which way you cut it. It's always in the same order, terran on top, and protoss at the bottom.
However, the number one player in terms of achievements is not clear cut for the protoss race as it is for the other two races:
NaDa is literally the top placed terran player for every single bracket stage.
Jaedong is the top placed zerg player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of round of sixteen appearances.
Stork is the top placed protoss player for every single bracket stage apart from the number of championships won.
Bisu is probably the top placed protoss player overall, but fails to even make the top ten list on most of the lists due to his inconsistency.
Protoss is the least successful race in the major individual leagues by almost any metric, but to make matters worse, there are no towering figureheads for the protoss race in terms of individual league achievements. Bisu simply does not dominate the other protoss legends such as Stork, Nal_rA and Reach apart from being more clutch in the finals. Remember, all it takes is a goon upgrade from Stork in game five, and we may have Stork as the most accomplished protoss player of all time in the major individual leagues.
I personally think that both Flash and Jaedong performed almost as well as they possibly could with their respective races, with the given time frame. Bisu may have matched them in terms of ability, but was far from being as complete as either of them in terms of being a competitor, and only matched his rivals when he felt like it. I don't think it's fair to categorize him on the same level of Flash, or Jaedong, when Bisu was closer to his contemporaries in terms of achievements, even if he had spikes of performances where he looked to be on the level of Flash, and Jaedong, even with his racial disadvantage.
Remember that after iloveoov, only two terran players reached multiple finals (Flash, and FanTaSy), and only one zerg player managed to reach multiple finals after sAviOr (Jaedong), whereas in the same era, three protoss players reached multiple finals (Bisu, Stork, and JangBi).
Even in the ProLeague seasons after Flash's debut, there were plenty of high performing protoss players:
I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes.
On September 12 2017 16:49 Qikz wrote: I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes.
I don't think you should make blanket statements like that when you don't have a full grasp of the Korean language.
Are there any indications Blizzard will patch game that hasn't seen any changes for at least a decade? Are there big enough BW tournaments in the horizon that would necessitate such patch?
On September 12 2017 16:49 Qikz wrote: I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes.
I don't think you should make blanket statements like that when you don't have a full grasp of the Korean language.
im korean and these progamers are clearly joking. You seem to be not aware of korean afreeca scene as well. Mind you that there was taesagi chants all over chat... cuz of flash and it was ridiculous for awhile. These pros responded to that in return sarcastically..
On September 12 2017 16:49 Qikz wrote: I do like how even though nobody (not zerg or protoss) at the highest level where game balance actually make a difference are calling tesagi minus one translated joke video where the translator missed all the jokes.
I don't think you should make blanket statements like that when you don't have a full grasp of the Korean language.
im korean and these progamers are clearly joking. You seem to be not aware of korean afreeca scene as well. Mind you that there was taesagi chants all over chat... cuz of flash and it was ridiculous for awhile. These pros responded to that in return sarcastically..
Jesus Christ, then pay a little more attention to the scene, there's so much unrecorded shit I can't list them all, but educate yourself before trying to educate me after watching that one video.
On September 12 2017 01:54 playa wrote: Boxer is the most overrated player ever. I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great. May as well say Huk is the best SC 2 player ever. I'd even put Midas above Boxer. But, then again, I can't think of many Terrans I wouldn't put ahead of Boxer.
Guy belongs on an honorary list. Pioneers of cheese or something. I think Oov is the second best Terran, by far, but I can see how it can go either way. Protoss sucks cause only one person has ever been able to play P vs Z. Hard to win things when you have to dodge a matchup. Few get that lucky in brackets.
How is reaching OSL finals in 2004 and 2005 "early success"?
How is innovationg and revolutionising tactical play and micro lead to "pioneer of cheese"?
"I hate how early success in a game cements you as an all time great."
Should we not honour and respect the people that laid important stepping stones for everyone else to take advantage of? Do you think it was easy to cut through the jungle of early BW and find a successful path to victory? To be an original thinker and find solutions in the chaos?
A guy posted after you, saying Boxer should be number 1 or 2, overall.
What I know I can say... is he did absolutely nothing since I started playing the game. All he did was ruin games. Omg, there would be so much hype going into every single boxer game. And what would he do? Oh, he would try to proxy rax Oov and everyone else.
Casuals love this guy, but anyone who actually appreciates good SC probably hates this guy. The guy couldn't even make an A-team on any team, once people figured out how to stop all-ins. He had zero macro and his games were pathetic.
So sick of early success trumping everything. Flash could dominate for the next 20 years straight and someone would say, hey how about that one guy who won a championship while no one knew what APM was. How bout that guy. Man he was the best ever. Give me a break.
So insulting to everyone that plays Terran. No one even remembers Midas, and Boxer could only dream of being that good... I don't know how these guys don't smack talk him.
I just did a quick tally of the last 2 pages of his TLPD stats. 30-50 his last 80 games. Overall, he lives off T vs Z and has a sub 50% in T vs P (hard matchup, though). I'd love to know his proxy rax stats. Give maxblack a time machine and he might be the next BW Bonjwa.
Here is the thing about discussions. I brought you 3 spesific challenges related to spesific points you wrote about. What you need to do is deal with those 3 challenges and not just jump on a tirade of statements and opinions - most of them ignorant and disrespectful as Letmelose and plenty of others have thoroughly shown you. We can all argue to the sun goes down and get NOWHERE if we dont deal with eachother arguments in a methodical manner. There are so many problems with what you wrote in your response to me, but you are not getting away from you responsibilites in a discussion by offering strawmens and diverging our attention.
I have actually watched all OSL games up until 2005, just to study and relive its history. You keep on talking about "king of cheese" and it just goes to show you dont know what you are talking about. Boxer is the king of micro and tactical play. His zerg opponents coud have the double amount of bases (and more), yet Boxer through sheer micro and grit, could use the small forces he had in incredible effective and sensational ways to make up for his relative small economy. Nothing about that has anything to do with cheese or all-ins like you keep on repeating. Go watch all the games from the old osl tournaments to get a more correct perspective. You can find them here https://www.youtube.com/user/TVOngamenet/playlists?shelf_id=0&sort=dd&view=1
You also need to understand the difference between the greatest and the best players of all time.
On September 12 2017 20:07 Jumperer wrote: First of all I would like to begin by saying that I welcome a balance patch. If anything else it would make the game interesting, arn't you all tired of watching the same shit over and over? Zerg badly needs help in ZvT and protoss in PvZ.
As for boxer being a fraud. What the fuck, boxer is a great player and a legend both for what he did inside and outside the game. Guy made 7 major finals, won 2 and lost 2 game 5s in 2 series that could've gone either ways. despite the fact that he can't "macro". his "cheese" are creative strategies and his games are fun to watch. He innovated the fuck out of starcraft and that's how he dominated, not with physical mechanic not with APM, but with him staying ahead of the meta and doing something creative that no one has ever seen before.
Hell, Terran was considered garbage in korea before he come a long. Of course, he couldn't compete with modern players who are younger, hungier, and has better mechanic. It happens to all great players in every sports. The fact that boxer was still somewhat keeping up with them is an amazing feat in itself. Reminds me of Arnold in terminator 2/3.
PvZ is bullshit though and I will tell you why the matchup is bullshit. TT1 said protoss win late game but I disagree, Protoss only win super late game, we're talking like 40 mins. Zerg destroys protoss once he gets hive. You need dragoons to fight lurkers but plague and dark swarm render dragoon useless. If toss fucks up and lose a base at that stage its also gg for protoss. Crackling under darkswarm kill your base in 5 seconds. Protoss dont have that ability because zerg's ability to defend after hive is ridiculous. nydus canel lurker sunken spore mass crackling reinforcement along with defiler. You have to grind them out as protoss.
Lurker is bullshit pvz especially combined with spore and sunken. First you need to tech to observer which cost a shit ton of gas just to see lurkers and then you have to micro that observer so it doesnt get killed by hydra/muta/scourge/anything. You also cant kill that unit effectively, dragoons need 50 shots to kill lurkers and usually dragoons cant get an angle where you can snipe lurker one by one. We don't have OP sieged tank to deal with this bullshit. Storm used to kill lurker in one hit(though they can unburrow and save it) but then some genius at blizzard changed it in patch 1.08 so now you need 2 storms to kill one lurker. You also need storm however to fight the rest of the zerg army. Lurkers dont even need to be micro, you just set it down and watch it kill 6000 zealots. If the spatans in 300 had lurkers they would've conquered the world.
This is how bs the matchup is, goddamn shuttle speed and observer speed cost less than zerglings speed. No protoss in the history of starcraft with the exception of bisu can beat the top zergs straight up. Nal_rA was considered a god at that matchup and even he could only manage 60% winrate at his PvZ peak.
PvZ kind of feels like you're imminently going to lose, and then either you actually do lose, or the Zerg randomly says "gg" and leaves because you outlasted him.
I've noticed that when I was watching Snows stream yesterday.
On Gold Rush he was getting droped by the Zerg (I think it was ggaemo) and it looked like he was on the back foot defending non stop. then out of no where the Zerg types 'gg'. I think he just defended and rebuilt bases real quick and outlasted the Zerg he was facing. The Gold Rush map is crazy.
Maps factor in. It wasnt discovered until 2005 onward that pvz was balanced better if protoss had more gases, previously it was thought protoss were benefited for more minerals. So protoss were getting trashed by zergs, and most of the maps then also favoured terran [in everything]. A lot of map seasons have favoured terran strongly.
On September 12 2017 23:46 Dazed. wrote: Maps factor in. It wasnt discovered until 2005 onward that pvz was balanced better if protoss had more gases, previously it was thought protoss were benefited for more minerals. So protoss were getting trashed by zergs, and most of the maps then also favoured terran [in everything]. A lot of map seasons have favoured terran strongly.
I think the problem with map making is a map either:
On September 11 2017 16:38 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: To paraphrase Grandmaster Artosis, the entirety of Terran strategy for every matchup can be summarized as waiting to get enough tanks to kill an entire army in one volley. Even the short-sighted and simple Terran players can recognize such a great imbalance. But I have to admit, having the fastest unit in the game on only the 2nd tier of tech with a short build time, that can shoot fragmentation grenades capable of vaporizing all peons, zerglings, zealots, defilers, and high and dark templar in seconds, and can even shoot these grenades backwards without losing acceleration, AND can shit out three mini-nukes that burrow into the ground only to pop out at the perfect time and seek out an enemy unit at an inescapable speed, gives siege tanks and their arclite cannons quite a run for their money.
Ah, how could I forget their cost? Let's make a list of units (excluding peons) that are cheaper than vultures: --Zergling --Marine
That was easy.
hmm, you forgot terran have the highest range in just - ground to ground, ground to air, and with yamato (which is the most powerful spell in the game) air to air, air to ground Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield/hitpoints and im fine.
Im positive for slight balance change and even new ideas and units. Thinking about remastered they couldve fixed at least the bugged AI of the goons, since toss is the weakest race. Change may occur if blizzard have interest in growing bw, however i doubt interest will sustain after the initial remastered hype fades away. Maybe in the future we will have sc bw 2? that would be super great. Or modded versions of the game will start getting popularity? Which is more likely due to RTS genre fading in the course of time.
On September 12 2017 23:46 Dazed. wrote: Maps factor in. It wasnt discovered until 2005 onward that pvz was balanced better if protoss had more gases, previously it was thought protoss were benefited for more minerals. So protoss were getting trashed by zergs, and most of the maps then also favoured terran [in everything]. A lot of map seasons have favoured terran strongly.
I think the problem with map making is a map either:
A) Favors Terran or B) Is extremely boring
That's not true, I would say that maps that favors terran are 4 poses maps like FS, CB where you can get an easy third, fourth and fifth, actually it's so easy that usually they can even take them at the same time vs zerg during mech switch. Not a chance you do this on 3 poses maps like Tau Cross or Aztec. Tau Cross is by far the most balanced and entertaining map you can have and it is not Terran favored.
Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield and im fine.
You mean a shield battery? That's a building!
It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D
As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns.
With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points:
1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three.
I know this is completely off topic, but I'd just like to point out that one can clearly see Kim Carrier in this video. I thought he was done with starcraft? Either way, I'm super happy to see him. I will never forget his tears at the Tving OSL finals and that epic speech to end professional brood war. He'll always be my favorite Korean caster.
On September 12 2017 20:07 Jumperer wrote: First of all I would like to begin by saying that I welcome a balance patch. If anything else it would make the game interesting, arn't you all tired of watching the same shit over and over? Zerg badly needs help in ZvT and protoss in PvZ.
As for boxer being a fraud. What the fuck, boxer is a great player and a legend both for what he did inside and outside the game. Guy made 7 major finals, won 2 and lost 2 game 5s in 2 series that could've gone either ways. despite the fact that he can't "macro". his "cheese" are creative strategies and his games are fun to watch. He innovated the fuck out of starcraft and that's how he dominated, not with physical mechanic not with APM, but with him staying ahead of the meta and doing something creative that no one has ever seen before.
Hell, Terran was considered garbage in korea before he come a long. Of course, he couldn't compete with modern players who are younger, hungier, and has better mechanic. It happens to all great players in every sports. The fact that boxer was still somewhat keeping up with them is an amazing feat in itself. Reminds me of Arnold in terminator 2/3.
PvZ is bullshit though and I will tell you why the matchup is bullshit. TT1 said protoss win late game but I disagree, Protoss only win super late game, we're talking like 40 mins. Zerg destroys protoss once he gets hive. You need dragoons to fight lurkers but plague and dark swarm render dragoon useless. If toss fucks up and lose a base at that stage its also gg for protoss. Crackling under darkswarm kill your base in 5 seconds. Protoss dont have that ability because zerg's ability to defend after hive is ridiculous. nydus canel lurker sunken spore mass crackling reinforcement along with defiler. You have to grind them out as protoss.
Lurker is bullshit pvz especially combined with spore and sunken. First you need to tech to observer which cost a shit ton of gas just to see lurkers and then you have to micro that observer so it doesnt get killed by hydra/muta/scourge/anything. You also cant kill that unit effectively, dragoons need 50 shots to kill lurkers and usually dragoons cant get an angle where you can snipe lurker one by one. We don't have OP sieged tank to deal with this bullshit. Storm used to kill lurker in one hit(though they can unburrow and save it) but then some genius at blizzard changed it in patch 1.08 so now you need 2 storms to kill one lurker. You also need storm however to fight the rest of the zerg army. Lurkers dont even need to be micro, you just set it down and watch it kill 6000 zealots. If the spatans in 300 had lurkers they would've conquered the world.
This is how bs the matchup is, goddamn shuttle speed and observer speed cost less than zerglings speed. No protoss in the history of starcraft with the exception of bisu can beat the top zergs straight up. Nal_rA was considered a god at that matchup and even he could only manage 60% winrate at his PvZ peak.
idk what the heck you are saying ablut pvz balance. PvZ balance only matters at high level you toss fools. You guys have the easiest time to win on ladder. Go look it up on starlog.gg and stop complaining.
Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield and im fine.
You mean a shield battery? That's a building!
It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D
As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns.
With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points:
1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three.
I see cost reduction as a best solution.
im sorry but toss is best race at low/mid level and you shouldn't be complaining since it doesn't really apply at level you just macro and win o.o. Once it gets to high level 2800++ now you have to start thinkin extra hard and do some brilliant strats that rain/mini/snow/bisu doing that have them in top10/15 elo.
Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield and im fine.
You mean a shield battery? That's a building!
It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D
As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns.
With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points:
1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three.
I see cost reduction as a best solution.
I... I don't see how you could ever make protoss units cheaper outside of scouts (and even scouts are crazy good already) without breaking the entire game.
I don't understand how you could possibly say Protoss is the most unflexible. You have literally the best air units in the game (carrriers) and gateway armies can kill every other army imaginable.
On September 11 2017 20:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think : medics heal too fast, tanks cost too little supply, vultures kill workers too quickly. Could make vultures deal.. 18 dmg? or 16? (3 hits to lings) Or increase hp of workers a little?^^ wouldnt be bad imo. DTs probably still should kill workers in one hit.. however having no notification is "sagi" ^^ so maybe not^^ actually I think they don't need to kill workers in one hit. They only feel weak in midgame, when detected, but what can you do. Some more hp or shield?
also I think : hydras are too weak vs M&M (because of medics) and perhaps against mutalisks. I think Mutalisks should probably be medium size.
I think reavers also kill workers too quickly (and marines), I would say reduce their aoe size and def make the scarab more reliable would be good imo.. too random. If I would say anything else is too strong with P, maybe storm damage is too fast, idk. Make it last longer and same dmg or smtg. It kills workers too quickly too, and M&M.
Qikz : risking a balance patch : I don't know. I think the game can be improved for sure, but of course doing it right is hard and there is a risk of not quite doing it right. Since its a creative thing there are many ways to do it, so it's hard to agree. It requires the designers to have strong understanding and to make strong coherent choices that really improve the game as a whole. Also problem of replays that stop working, which can be fixed if the game will load stuff from previous patch after recognizing replay version.
also I think Battlecruiser could use a dmg increase.. guardians and devourers smtg? more hp for guardians? a little more dmg for devourers? and scouts cheaper at least or more ground dmg or.. free sight upgrade.. I think swarm is too invincible, I would say maybe change it to increase armor of units or smtg.
I'm only on page three so I have yet to see where this discussion has led, but dude, changing this much at once would be an absolute complete disaster.
On September 11 2017 16:26 NoS-Craig wrote: Here's a translated video of BW pros talking about Tesagi. The up-loader translated it to English best he could. I think some of you might have seen this before. Pretty good watch for people who want to see pros view on the situation.
don't get why people keep posting this. This guy has no idea what he is talking about. These koreans are joking around and appealing to casual base who has been calling terrans taesagi because of flash.... There is no taesagi according to top zergs. They all say other terrans can be destroyed except flash.
Also balance doesn't even affect us amyway. Protoss should shut the hell up. They are beneficiaries of low ceiling requirement. Its only when you reach 2500+ mmr does it suddenly become hard. Thats when you just dont 1a2a3a4a with maximized effiency anymore. You actually have to do what other two races have been doung to win
PvT is actually the matchup where 1a2a3a is in fact the absolute least viable. I think it's pretty balanced on modern maps, but the 1a2a3a meme is at the very worst less true than tesagi.
i think the only way to save this game is to introduce a veto ban system. each player at the start of the game would be allowed to ban 2 units of the opponent race that they think is too strong... and it would also open up a lot of new strategy possibilities. for example you could ban zealots and dragoons and then rush early space marines to kill protoss. or zerg could play mass defiler with support after banning dark archon (who feedback spellcasters) and science vessels or protoss could ban missile turrets and rush air vs terran (scouts anyone??)
On September 11 2017 20:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think : medics heal too fast, tanks cost too little supply, vultures kill workers too quickly. Could make vultures deal.. 18 dmg? or 16? (3 hits to lings) Or increase hp of workers a little?^^ wouldnt be bad imo. DTs probably still should kill workers in one hit.. however having no notification is "sagi" ^^ so maybe not^^ actually I think they don't need to kill workers in one hit. They only feel weak in midgame, when detected, but what can you do. Some more hp or shield?
also I think : hydras are too weak vs M&M (because of medics) and perhaps against mutalisks. I think Mutalisks should probably be medium size.
I think reavers also kill workers too quickly (and marines), I would say reduce their aoe size and def make the scarab more reliable would be good imo.. too random. If I would say anything else is too strong with P, maybe storm damage is too fast, idk. Make it last longer and same dmg or smtg. It kills workers too quickly too, and M&M.
Qikz : risking a balance patch : I don't know. I think the game can be improved for sure, but of course doing it right is hard and there is a risk of not quite doing it right. Since its a creative thing there are many ways to do it, so it's hard to agree. It requires the designers to have strong understanding and to make strong coherent choices that really improve the game as a whole. Also problem of replays that stop working, which can be fixed if the game will load stuff from previous patch after recognizing replay version.
also I think Battlecruiser could use a dmg increase.. guardians and devourers smtg? more hp for guardians? a little more dmg for devourers? and scouts cheaper at least or more ground dmg or.. free sight upgrade.. I think swarm is too invincible, I would say maybe change it to increase armor of units or smtg.
I'm only on page three so I have yet to see where this discussion has led, but dude, changing this much at once would be an absolute complete disaster.
thanks for your encouraging remark but you're not even saying why so when I read it, it only feels bad and that's all... I put some thought into this, I'm not saying everything I suggest is great but make an effort at least yo.
Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield and im fine.
You mean a shield battery? That's a building!
It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D
As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns.
With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points:
1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three.
I see cost reduction as a best solution.
Dunno, what game you are playing, but in BW cannons occupy the same space as turrets and always deal full damage (and can hit ground!), while turrets deal only half damage vs mutas. So you actually have more firepower vs mutas as Protoss and don't need army supply to defend a base vs ground harrass, which makes you flexible.
On September 11 2017 20:42 ProMeTheus112 wrote: I think : medics heal too fast, tanks cost too little supply, vultures kill workers too quickly. Could make vultures deal.. 18 dmg? or 16? (3 hits to lings) Or increase hp of workers a little?^^ wouldnt be bad imo. DTs probably still should kill workers in one hit.. however having no notification is "sagi" ^^ so maybe not^^ actually I think they don't need to kill workers in one hit. They only feel weak in midgame, when detected, but what can you do. Some more hp or shield?
also I think : hydras are too weak vs M&M (because of medics) and perhaps against mutalisks. I think Mutalisks should probably be medium size.
I think reavers also kill workers too quickly (and marines), I would say reduce their aoe size and def make the scarab more reliable would be good imo.. too random. If I would say anything else is too strong with P, maybe storm damage is too fast, idk. Make it last longer and same dmg or smtg. It kills workers too quickly too, and M&M.
Qikz : risking a balance patch : I don't know. I think the game can be improved for sure, but of course doing it right is hard and there is a risk of not quite doing it right. Since its a creative thing there are many ways to do it, so it's hard to agree. It requires the designers to have strong understanding and to make strong coherent choices that really improve the game as a whole. Also problem of replays that stop working, which can be fixed if the game will load stuff from previous patch after recognizing replay version.
also I think Battlecruiser could use a dmg increase.. guardians and devourers smtg? more hp for guardians? a little more dmg for devourers? and scouts cheaper at least or more ground dmg or.. free sight upgrade.. I think swarm is too invincible, I would say maybe change it to increase armor of units or smtg.
I'm only on page three so I have yet to see where this discussion has led, but dude, changing this much at once would be an absolute complete disaster.
thanks for your encouraging remark but you're not even saying why so when I read it, it only feels bad and that's all... I put some thought into this, I'm not saying everything I suggest is great but make an effort at least yo.
I'm really not sure if you're serious. Some people are serious in this thread, and some obviously aren't.
Why would you change ten things at once? That violates every principle of game design. If you change so many things, you can't tell what the effect of each individual one is, because the entire milieu is different.
I'm not saying anything about any particular change you suggested, because it's moot since so many at once after a fairly stable 15 years would be insane, with many top players around having played the same game for 10+ years at this point, or close to 20 for some who still play but aren't at the top (e.g. Reach)
well I didn't really suggest they all be changed at once so whatever then, just suggestions put up for discussion... not that I don't think some things are better changed together than by themselves...
On September 13 2017 05:21 ProMeTheus112 wrote: well I didn't really suggest they all be changed at once so whatever then, just suggestions put up for discussion... not that I don't think some things are better changed together than by themselves...
I guess I will address the changes themselves - it seems you just want to make everything strong weaker. It's okay that there are counters and strong units in certain situations. Not everything has to be exactly equally powerful in all situations. If that were the case, there would be no strategy.
The last OSL champion is Jangbi, he won it back to back beating Fantasy who 3-0ed Flash in the last OSL semi-final. Players in 2012 were much better than they are now in my opinion, but Tesagi was not a thing. I'm kinda sad that we never got the chance to see what Jangbi and Protosses in general could've achieve had BW pro-scene continued.
On September 13 2017 05:21 ProMeTheus112 wrote: well I didn't really suggest they all be changed at once so whatever then, just suggestions put up for discussion... not that I don't think some things are better changed together than by themselves...
I guess I will address the changes themselves - it seems you just want to make everything strong weaker. It's okay that there are counters and strong units in certain situations. Not everything has to be exactly equally powerful in all situations. If that were the case, there would be no strategy.
I agree with that, however when the strong stuff is too strong, it eliminates room for other stuff to be useful thus decreasing the strategy potential. Also you will find that, things won't all be equally powerful in all situations if they are not the same. Their different characteristics mean they will generate pros and cons by nature. Therefore if the balance is very good, more potential unfolds.
Give me a unit that autorecharges plasma shield and im fine.
You mean a shield battery? That's a building!
It needs to grow some legs then and autorecharge my army :D
As i think more on the balance subject it appears in my mind that the protoss race just became uneficient as the years passed, because players learned how to counter most of the things in the protoss arsenal. While making these unefecient stuff are at high price to build, leaving you without options if fails. Im having in mind shuttle/reaver harass. I cant recall much successful usage of that in the last 1-2 years, most of i remember is fail or just doing ok damage(corsair reaver completelly died in pvz). While when u dont succeed u are far behind or sometimes instant gg. What are the effective ways of harass in pvz, or pvt? Dark templars, high templars? It became a piece of cake for T and Z. Reavers and dark templars have their best usage in mirror matchup... Zerg can switch from unit to unit fast and easy, while Protoss race sluggish build transition many times lead to defeat, as toss doesnt have the terran defensive advantage. Air to air only unit play a main role in PvZ, cosidering how unefecient air to air unit is. Even if a protoss deal a massive damage with corsairs that cannot possibly kill a Zerg. While terran have the choise of Marines with medic which can insta kill zerg if hes not top notch in sunken timing and muta micro, goliaths, valkyres or wraiths. Can a toss invest in base defense efectively against mutas? No, canons are huge and cost 150 minerals, while ter can build turrets for half of the price and build time and can place 2 to 4 turrets in a place where cannon spawns.
With that in mind i can rely my conclusion to 2 main points:
1. Protoss units and tech are too costly for a balance. 2. Protoss is the most unflexible race of the three.
I see cost reduction as a best solution.
Dunno, what game you are playing, but in BW cannons occupy the same space as turrets and always deal full damage (and can hit ground!), while turrets deal only half damage vs mutas. So you actually have more firepower vs mutas as Protoss and don't need army supply to defend a base vs ground harrass, which makes you flexible.
My previous post was about progamers and highest level of play, i know toss is great at low/mid level, but i can say even at mid level pvz is hard. Cannons were never efficient against mutas, thats why pros dont mass canon as response. Now lets make comparison between turret and canon in possible muta harrass. Canon is 150 minerals, slower build time and lower rate of fire than a turret which cost 75 minerals and around half of the build time. I had mistaken that turret is smaller than a cannon, but also have in mind that best position if u dont want to manner your workers at natural is one pylon behind minerals which make less space for canons. The fact that in main base you usually have buildings around nexus is another reason you dont usually see canon spam like turrets in one or two straight lines. The third thing, its super easy to build X amount of emergency turrets at the last second, its cheap fast and all u have to do is to catch one worker at a time and hit BT. Ive been surviving so many times as a terran like that. At the same time you cannot do that as protoss not only because of the space, slower build rate but because many times as you scout mutas you will have to build a pylons first at the right spots which means your cannons will be too late. The situation when muta is in your base - its way easier for terran to hold mutas with turrets, u can repair and even if muta stack kills one or two of your turrets by that time other 2 are finished, as a protoss u pray your canons will last another volley for your next to finish building. Infact you need army supply and also tech in air to air units just for countering the mutas otherwise you just die... I dont rember seeing progamer defending mutas with canons in recent bw era. As in that situation Terran have Marines - a ranged units that shoot ground and air and with stim are way faster than protoss ground army, can both attack and retreat efectively and are great against anything before lurker tech in standart tvz.
You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right? The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat. You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken.
On September 13 2017 09:25 Lorch wrote: You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right? The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat. You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken.
I don't care much for balance discussion because who cares if a race is 1% better at its peak performance if most people don't play at peak performance. However there are some things with Protoss that can be changed that make me mad. Protoss has the 2 units with the worst AI in the game. Dragoon and reaver scarab. Reaver scarab being by far the worst AI of all time. And Protoss has the worst unit in the game the scout. Ghost is pretty crappy too but it cost way less so it's ok they suck.
This discussion is pointless. I wont even argue with the shitty points made because not only is the premise flawed, (that there needs to be an equal representation of each race for the game to be balanced) but every discussion on this matter is useless unless you really trust Blizzard to balance the game, which I doubt anyone still in BW wants. After 7 years of dreadful balance patching of Blizzard in sc2, i would like them to stay away from this game gameplay.
Also if it were anyone else complaining about bw balance, you would have been roasted.
On September 12 2017 18:26 someone on discord wrote: People need to get over it. The game has been out for 19 years, 19 fucking years! Why talk about this shit now.
On September 13 2017 13:33 riotjune wrote: Blizzard pls buff protoss! Where's David Kim when you need him????!!
Protoss Balance Changes
- Protoss Archons now retain all templar abilities, using shields as mana. - All protoss buildings now function shield batteries. - Shield regeneration rate reduced by 12,5% - Shields can now be repaired by probes. - Protoss Observers now have ‘Counterspell’ - Nullifying all spell effects in radius. On a cool down of 15 seconds. Beware! This includes friendly spells and effects! - The Protoss Shield Battery now has a new researchable ability called “Where we are going, we don’t need, roads.” At a cost of 200/200. When cast in an area, with a radius similar to Scanner Sweep all non-Zealot Protoss ground units gain the ability to fly. - Protoss Probe now has an attack range of 3, up from 1. - Protoss Probe damage increased to 10, up from 5. - Protoss Probe now has a new passive ability: “Demon Aura”. The effect is simply a visual clarification as this undocumented effect was already in the game. - Removed shield drain cost from the Protoss Dark Archon’s Mind Control spell. - Reduced Mind Control cost to 75, down from 150.
Terran Balance Changes
- Terran Vulture mineral cost is now 85 up from 75. - Terran Vulture mineral cost is now 80 down from 85. - Terran Vulture mineral cost is now 95 up from 80. - Terran Vulture build time increased by 5, was 19. - Terran Vulture build time decreased by 2, was 24. - Terran Vulture build time increased by 7, was 22. - Terran Vulture’s Spider Mine ability is now on a 15 second cool down. - Spider mines now need to be constructed at the Machine Shop and individually loaded into vultures at a cost of 15 minerals. - Spider mines can now be Mind Controlled. - Terran Firebats now have 3 attacks, up from 2. - Removed Terran Valkyrie from the game. - Terran Siege Tanks have had their Stabilising Struts removed, they are now a 100/100 upgrade in the Machine Shop that requires the Armory to research. - Terran Siege Tanks now roll back with every shot in Siege Mode until the Stabilising Struts are researched. - Terran Bunker remains unchanged. - Terran Supply depots can now lift off, losing their supply capacity while airborne. - Flying units can no longer bypass airborne Terran buildings.
Zerg Balance Changes
- Zerg now has a new unit, the ‘Retconnolisk’. Only one Retconnolisk per Hatchery can be active. - The Retconnolisk channels creep energy to construct Zerg buildings, much like the Terran SCV. Channeling drains minerals per second relative to the current HP of the building under construction. - The Retconnolisk can be constructed at the Hatchery without using larvae and costs 100 minerals. - Zerg Hatcheries have a new upgrade called “Enhanced Purgeglands” reducing the channeling costs of the Retconnolisk’s construction. - Zerg Retconnolisk has a new ability: ‘Consume Minerals.” Allowing the Retconnolisk to consume a full patch of minerals instantly. These minerals are set aside in a separate ‘Building Bank’ that can only be used to construct buildings. The minerals are lost if the Retconnolisk is killed. - The Retconnolisk has the same stats as a Zerg Drone except it can attack air with a concussive melee attack. - Zerg Drones can no longer build structures. - Increased Zerg Broodling duration by 10% - Zerg Mutalisk’s Glaive Wurm second bounce now deals 4 damage, up from 3. - Reduced Zerg Mutalisk’s HP by 5. - Zerg Hydralisk no longer has a range air attack. - Zerg Hydralisk Den now has a new evolution: “Hydras can’t look up.” for 100/100 will allow Hydralisks to shoot air. - Zerg Ultralisks no longer give a shit, as a consequence of this change in attitude they no longer are affected by spells or unit collisions. - Zerg Defilers now have to keep moving, otherwise they’ll take damage. This is based off of feedback that they kind of look like they’re struggling and squirming when they’re stationary. ‘It just feels right.’
This patch will be deployed on the Test Realm tomorrow, giving you a total of 2,5 days before this goes live anyway as we’re already working on the second iteration with our own testers.
In terms of player feedback, we will ignore exact every third post and implement every fifth suggestion regardless of relevance or lucidity.
On September 13 2017 09:25 Lorch wrote: You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right? The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat. You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken.
Bisu can dominate zerg because he has the best physical mechanic in all of esports. No other protoss in the world can imitate his multitask-based pvz. He's an outlier. Your logic is extremely flawed because you claim the matchup is fine using an outlier while ignoring the rest of the population. Not all protosses are bisu and not all women are joan of arc.
I watched a Korean show 2009ish or 2010, a long time ago so my memory is sketchy. Effort, Stork, some other players, I don't remember if Jaedong and Flash were there as well or if the others just brought them up. But they all agree Bisu's micro is way beyond theirs. Effort is a self-admitted spammer, but he chuckled when he sees how much Bisu can work the apm all throughout the game. The immortal probe was universally brought up, and everyone also mentioned how Bisu's first couple Zealot harass is really terrifying for zergs.
But the most important thing discussed in the show was when Stork said it's not Bisu's mechanics that makes him god of PvZ, but his "soul", again, I'm drawing from almost a decade old memory, but Stork explained it like: Bisu is like the Kerrigan of Protoss. He has the soul of a zerg in the mind and body of a Protoss. He knows every trick and secret zergs have. At this point, Effort interrupted, saying other protoss rely on available information and adjust according to that, while Bisu can read both on available and absent information. He can predict strategies based on absence of units or overlord in a location in the map, number of lurkers even if some are hidden, and can decide by instinct if 2 or 3 corsairs are needed or he needs to allocate gas to templar tech in important transitions in games. Add this to the fact that he knows every timing in the zerg arsenal and can outmicro any zerg, even himself and Jaedong, Bisu's pvz is gold standard. Stork concluded that Bisu understands both the form and the essence of what zergs are trying to do, and that's why it's impossible for other Protoss to follow, because once the form changes, they get lost already, but Bisu knows both intimately and is not deceived by any zerg shenanigans. They just laughed at the end saying that ZvP is broken and Bisu is the only one capable of wining the MU.
This was on an Arirang show alongside the replays of the week that the casters review. Good times.
On September 13 2017 09:25 Lorch wrote: You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right? The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat. You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken.
Bisu can dominate zerg because he has the best physical mechanic in all of esports. No other protoss in the world can imitate his multitask-based pvz. He's an outlier. Your logic is extremely flawed because you claim the matchup is fine using an outlier while ignoring the rest of the population. Not all protosses are bisu and not all women are joan of arc.
and you are also ignoring the fact that toss is op at early/mid levels until 2500 mmr where semi pro/pros hover aroun?? so whats the point? You want more toss users? who is going to play already the rarest race zerg?
Why not just nerf the firebat? It only ever gets used in TvZ, the matchup where Terran has the biggest advantage. And it's not a particularly interesting unit even in that matchup. It mostly just gets used as a get-out-of-jail-free card, when terran loses their first marine force and has zerglings swarming in their base. Any other race would just die in that situation, but Terran still has a solid chance of making a comeback, thanks to the firebat (plus 60 HP scvs, liftoff, repairable buildings, etc). It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen enough to affect the TvZ win rate- maybe 2%? So you could help balance in that matchup by 2% without throwing off any other aspect of the game.
I don't think there's any comparable unit you could nerf in ZvP that only gets used in that matchup. Maybe reduce the HP of some zerg buildings like the evo chamber and hydro den, since they're so important for simcity defense? That would be interesting. But seriously, nerf the firebat.
On September 14 2017 13:24 Twinkle Toes wrote: Serious question, why does SCV have 60hp? What disadvantage is it compensating for to justify +33% hp?
Also, agree with Firebat^. I think it's the easiest, balance-restoring but logical change that could be done.
Shorter range, slower response, no automatic health regeneration, and vulnerability while building.
Shorter range and slower response is tricky. While Drone and Probe have range attacks, they have slower rate of fire that it evens out with SCVs.
To list other factors Drone - health regeneration but they are sacrificed for buildings, can build only on creep Probe - shield regeneration, warp in multiple buildings, build anywhere within psi SCV - micro-cost for immediate repair, build anywhere
SCVs have no disadvantage to warrant such relatively massive hp difference
When balance was mentioned in BW section I was interested to read about how map design could be changed to cater "modern balance". Instead I got to read worthless posts about changing unit properties.
On September 14 2017 13:24 Twinkle Toes wrote: Serious question, why does SCV have 60hp? What disadvantage is it compensating for to justify +33% hp?
Also, agree with Firebat^. I think it's the easiest, balance-restoring but logical change that could be done.
Shorter range, slower response, no automatic health regeneration, and vulnerability while building.
Shorter range and slower response is tricky. While Drone and Probe have range attacks, they have slower rate of fire that it evens out with SCVs.
To list other factors Drone - health regeneration but they are sacrificed for buildings, can build only on creep Probe - shield regeneration, warp in multiple buildings, build anywhere within psi SCV - micro-cost for immediate repair, build anywhere
SCVs have no disadvantage to warrant such relatively massive hp difference
I assume you've never played Terran right?
If the SCV didn't have 60HP you would literally lose every TvP at the beginning. You would never be able to finish your barracks in time against a good probe.
On September 14 2017 13:24 Twinkle Toes wrote: Serious question, why does SCV have 60hp? What disadvantage is it compensating for to justify +33% hp?
Also, agree with Firebat^. I think it's the easiest, balance-restoring but logical change that could be done.
Shorter range, slower response, no automatic health regeneration, and vulnerability while building.
Shorter range and slower response is tricky. While Drone and Probe have range attacks, they have slower rate of fire that it evens out with SCVs.
Yeah, if neither player micros. It affects early game worker harassment, especially in PvT. Also, proxy gates and 4/5 pool would be extremely difficult to defend even after being scouted.
You are assuming the enemy probe/drone micro is perfect while the terran is an idiot who will just let his scv die while building something. Terrans have always reacted to this by switching scvs. The question to me is do you need +33% if this is the disadvantage that is being compensated for. Even at prolevel, scvs never reach 30 heath before they nullify any harass.
I'm not saying there are no reasons why it shouldnt be 60 vs 40 for the two other workers, Im just saying all the reasons presented so far seem insufficient to justify the 60hp.
On September 12 2017 05:23 FlaShFTW wrote: Yeah but this is TT1, a guy who played as semi-pro (pro?) whos the one coming in here to make a balance thread, not some random from sc2 who knows nothing about the game.
EDIT: also, flash is a player that practices so hard that others just cant fathom that level of effort to get to that skill level and maintain it. That also plays into why hes so good, not because of the race. Same with a player like kobe bryant, he willed himself to be one of the best players ever through sheer willpower.
If you're responding to me then yes, I know who TT1 is and it is kind of funny a foreign Protoss is making the thread about tesagi but it's clear he's doing it from the viewpoint of Korean pros at the highest level, as the discussion should be. He also started the thread with some attempt to provide some starting points for discussion, not balance whining like erggg vultures so cheap! comsat imba, etc.
I still think my point hasn't come across, maybe I'm just plain wrong, but it is in no way balance whining. First of all, I'm in NO position to comment Terran balance per se, since I barely play the game competitively; second of all, even when I do, I play Terran; and last but not least, I consider the game - as an observer - to be pretty close to balanced, at least at the highest level, since that's where most of the viewers (including myself) are. I have no clue if Protosses struggle vs Terrans on mid-level ladder/ICCUP/whatever, and quite frankly, I don't care much. Most of this discussion has been revolving around the top players from all eras anyway. It's just that genius players can do more with real-time, on-demand information. It's true terrans are dependent on the comsat in all matchups; that's something the meta has forced anyway. It's true the other two races can screw around with the Terran and force scans to waste energy; but for some reason I just think a genius has more use for a comsat than for an observer, for example. Even meta building and adjusting BOs has probably been revolving around heavy comsat usage and I don't think it happened spontaneously; I think big guys timed their academies, then comsats, then scans to possible enemy build orders and did it countless times to perfect them. Probably those of you that have followed the scene since its early days can elaborate more, I am just thinking out loud, not trying to look knowledgeable - because I'm not. And quite frankly, I don't think participating in an online discussion about a game we all love should be restricted to aficionados and oldschoolers. Please, correct me if I am wrong. I had hopes for a proper discussion.
On September 13 2017 09:25 Lorch wrote: You do realise that you are supposed to open corsair to deal with mutas, right? The only comparable thing terran has is wraiths, and I can't remember anyone besides Leta who really put that into effect in competitive play. Toss uses cannons to kill scourge and corsairs to deal with mutas. Meanwhile terran uses marines + turrets to keep mutas at bay and eventually vessels to end the threat. You make it sound like everything should be the same in a game with three distinct races. Of course protoss has a different interaction with zerg than terran. In the natural balance of starcraft of P>T>Z>P you are supposed to have a harder time with PvZ. And you said it yourself that players like Bisu can dominate Zerg just fine, and imo as long as it's possible for someone to do it there is no issue. If you are struggling at anything on the mid level it's probably because you suck at macro and/or control, not because the game is broken.
You have many wrongs and seem to not understand what ive been talk about or didnt read my previous post. As i said making expensive air to air unit just to counter other unit is uneffective by default same goes for 200-200 for robo + 50-100 observatory just for observer with low health and sluggish speed. Why terran need to have that corsair option when he have marines that are great against both ground and air and they can be healed to full health? Natural balance goes T>Z>P. Protoss builds simply doesnt work anymore as they used to in the past, thats why protoss players use so much unorthodox openings, again with not much success. Now lets talk to the trademar toss things. When was the last time youve seen sucessful reaver play in pro level, and what is the ratio of success overall? Do you remember a game where corsair reaver worked against zerg in the last 2 years? Or maybe dt rush/harass in non mirror matchup? I dont see how can protoss players suck while others dont. Protoss shuttle harass is the most expensive of all the races too. So much for toss is too costly and hard to recover from. Not only that but it became uneffective. I can see protoss "bag of builds" sort of depleted its potential. Part of this could be that the level of play significantly decreased and with no young blood, players are too old to perform sharp enough, also other races learned how to defend and defending is way easier than doing the harass.
I believe if SCV was nerfed to 40HP, PvT winrate would exceed 60%. We'd see a lot more early agression that terrans would simply get the shorter stick from most of the time.
i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
On September 13 2017 13:33 riotjune wrote: Blizzard pls buff protoss! Where's David Kim when you need him????!!
Protoss Balance Changes - Protoss Probe now has a new passive ability: “Demon Aura”. The effect is simply a visual clarification as this undocumented effect was already in the game.
Sounds powerful but I can't argue with the reasoning. PS: + Show Spoiler +
Never admit that your posts are satire. You will only regret it.
I think SCVs were probably given 60HP because the marine being the weakest very early game unit, T needs to involve scvs more often in fight, and they can be targeted while they build and repair.. I like it how it is, I think drones and probes maybe have too few hps (getting killed too quickly by some stuff) but SCV having more hp than them feels fine.
On September 14 2017 12:52 Shinokuki wrote:and you are also ignoring the fact that toss is op at early/mid levels until 2500 mmr where semi pro/pros hover aroun?? so whats the point? You want more toss users? who is going to play already the rarest race zerg?
what a joke, have some respect for protoss users pls~ or switch to protoss and get rekt^^
Scvs have 60hp because they need to survive while building things. Its simple.
Any complaints about 60hp scv are ridiculous and obviously are coming from non terran players. Claiming its as simple as pulling scvs off and replacing them during probe harass clearly shows youve never had scvs wig out n get stuck ontop of buildings while the probes magic range continues to hit them.
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
But balance discussion does not have to be about fixing balance, but to discuss and gain understanding for the game and why there are certain discrepancies between the races. Better to have a discussion than have people keep perpetuating their own home made theories without resistance, because ideas and bias about balance in a game with 3 different races will never go away. Neither will the fact that BW is not and never have been perfectly balanced. Discussing the nuances of that fact is interesting and is not a support for changing the game.
That 60 hp scvs always give unfair advantage to terran in rushes, not only in defensive perspective. The easiest way for a terran to win a game in 1 min is bunker rush and that often happens. I would like to see a percentage statistic with wins gained by scv or bunker rush. Or how easy is to hold hydra rush when 12 shots kill 1 scv? 45 or 50 hp wouldve been just fine.
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
None of your warnings or bans were regarding balance whining or discussion. Only reason this thread is still open is because the hope was that it wouldn't devolve into the usual balance whine otherwise, it would've been closed as soon as it was posted. Rest assured that if it starts to get bad, it will be closed.
On September 14 2017 23:38 _Animus_ wrote: That 60 hp scvs always give unfair advantage to terran in rushes, not only in defensive perspective. The easiest way for a terran to win a game in 1 min is bunker rush and that often happens. I would like to see a percentage statistic with wins gained by scv or bunker rush. Or how easy is to hold hydra rush when 12 shots kill 1 scv? 45 or 50 hp wouldve been just fine.
SCV health obviously helps in rushes, but in what way is it unfair? Are you losing lots of games to bunker rush in PVT? It can be defended easily even with 12 nexus. This is like me complaining that zealots having more health than marines is an "unfair advantage to Protoss in rushes."
The scv 60 hp argument has always been interesting. On one hand, scvs are definitely the clunkiest of all workers, no range, and also very vulnerable when building. They also dont have natural hp regen and requires a second scv to repair, meaning now youre pulling a second worker off the line to help. So in early game if terran is scouted early, they are effectively using 1.5 scvs to make a building.
On the other hand, if youre attacking or defending, the tanky scvs are obviously way better than probes/drones. So its kind of give and take. It makes early game terran slightly annoying to play with needing to pull the second scv.
Otherwise, i think the hp is fine. Lower would mean that harassing building scvs would be way easier and force terran to really be on top of microing scvs early on
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
Well the purpose of this thread was to present a bit of data as a starting point to a balance discussion (for every matchup). Even the Korean scene is having these type of discussions.. so why can't we?
If i had to make a change i would increase the vultures build time and maybe change the siege tanks attack upgrade from +5 to +4. I didn't do the math to see whether or not +4 siege tanks could still 2 shot tanks (after 2 attack upgrades).. so that change might have an impact on TvT as well. In any case i don't think that's a bad thing. If +2 attack siege tanks can't 2 shot tanks anymore that would make midd to late game drops (in someone's main) much less punishing.
Imo the main issue is mech, stuff like SCV changes aren't necessary. Both Zerg and Terran have very strong 200/200 armies but the difference is Zerg's army is extremely hard to control whereas Terran can perfectly control their entire ball of death.
There's a give and take for Zerg, if someone is REALLY good they can master their race and become a beastly player. Even progamer Zergs aren't able to play their race efficiently just because of how high the skill cap is. A Terran 200/200 army on the other hand has no downside, you have an extremely strong army that you can move around the map with ease. Protoss can do that as well but the downside is that our 200/200 army isn't nearly as strong as the other races (which like i said is fine, there's a give and take).
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
Well the purpose of this thread was to present a bit of data as a starting point to a balance discussion (for every matchup). Even the Korean scene is having these type of discussions.. so why can't we?
If i had to make a change i would increase the vultures build time and maybe change the siege tanks attack upgrade from +5 to +4. I didn't do the math to see whether or not +4 siege tanks could still 2 shot tanks (after 2 attack upgrades).. so that change might have an impact on TvT as well. In any case i don't think that's a bad thing. If +2 attack siege tanks can't 2 shot tanks anymore that would make midd to late game drops (in someone's main) much less punishing.
Imo the main issue is mech, stuff like SCV changes aren't necessary. Both Zerg and Terran have very strong 200/200 armies but the difference is Zerg's army is extremely hard to control whereas Terran can perfectly control their entire ball of death.
There's a give and take for Zerg, if someone is REALLY good they can master their race and become a beastly player. Even progamer Zerg's aren't able to play their race efficiently just because of how high the skill cap is. A Terran 200/200 army on the other hand has no downside, you have an extremely strong army that you can move around the map with ease. Protoss can do that as well but the downside is that our 200/200 army isn't nearly as strong as the other races.
i dont get the hate for terrans. I'm zerg and i think t has the higest skill ceiling. Look at the current top ten elo and you see 4 zergs/3t/3p..... and you are also missing the fact that p is very good at our levels
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
Well the purpose of this thread was to present a bit of data as a starting point to a balance discussion (for every matchup). Even the Korean scene is having these type of discussions.. so why can't we?
If i had to make a change i would increase the vultures build time and maybe change the siege tanks attack upgrade from +5 to +4. I didn't do the math to see whether or not +4 siege tanks could still 2 shot tanks (after 2 attack upgrades).. so that change might have an impact on TvT as well. In any case i don't think that's a bad thing. If +2 attack siege tanks can't 2 shot tanks anymore that would make midd to late game drops (in someone's main) much less punishing.
Imo the main issue is mech, stuff like SCV changes aren't necessary. Both Zerg and Terran have very strong 200/200 armies but the difference is Zerg's army is extremely hard to control whereas Terran can perfectly control their entire ball of death.
There's a give and take for Zerg, if someone is REALLY good they can master their race and become a beastly player. Even progamer Zerg's aren't able to play their race efficiently just because of how high the skill cap is. A Terran 200/200 army on the other hand has no downside, you have an extremely strong army that you can move around the map with ease. Protoss can do that as well but the downside is that our 200/200 army isn't nearly as strong as the other races.
i dont get the hate for terrans. I'm zerg and i think t has the higest skill ceiling. Look at the current top ten elo and you see 4 zergs/3t/3p..... and you are also missing the fact that p is very good at our levels
Sorry but they don't, Zerg has the highest skill cap and it isn't remotely close. I understand that P is good at lower to midd levels but we're talking about balance at the highest level.
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
Well the purpose of this thread was to present a bit of data as a starting point to a balance discussion (for every matchup). Even the Korean scene is having these type of discussions.. so why can't we?
If i had to make a change i would increase the vultures build time and maybe change the siege tanks attack upgrade from +5 to +4. I didn't do the math to see whether or not +4 siege tanks could still 2 shot tanks (after 2 attack upgrades).. so that change might have an impact on TvT as well. In any case i don't think that's a bad thing. If +2 attack siege tanks can't 2 shot tanks anymore that would make midd to late game drops (in someone's main) much less punishing.
Imo the main issue is mech, stuff like SCV changes aren't necessary. Both Zerg and Terran have very strong 200/200 armies but the difference is Zerg's army is extremely hard to control whereas Terran can perfectly control their entire ball of death.
There's a give and take for Zerg, if someone is REALLY good they can master their race and become a beastly player. Even progamer Zerg's aren't able to play their race efficiently just because of how high the skill cap is. A Terran 200/200 army on the other hand has no downside, you have an extremely strong army that you can move around the map with ease. Protoss can do that as well but the downside is that our 200/200 army isn't nearly as strong as the other races.
i dont get the hate for terrans. I'm zerg and i think t has the higest skill ceiling. Look at the current top ten elo and you see 4 zergs/3t/3p..... and you are also missing the fact that p is very good at our levels
Sorry but they don't, Zerg has the highest skill cap and it isn't remotely close. I understand that P is good at lower to midd levels but we're talking about balance at the highest level.
what evidence do you have? Flash is the evidence for the terran skill ceiling. Also I agree z has the consensus highest skill ceiling but its impossible to reach it. Someone like flash can reach almost the highest skill ceiling T can offer but someone like larva/effort/jd cannot reach the impossible. Thats the diff. T has the viable highest skill ceiling possible
On September 15 2017 01:08 ProMeTheus112 wrote: have you seen that crazy scv + medics rush designed to kill natural nexus in tvp ? -_-
hmmm, I just thought about something like that today ^^
any reps to share? I'm curious. frankly the idea sounds obscene ;p
I think scan did it in one of his videos but couldnt tell you which, maybe just on a stream
From what I understand, it's pretty similar to the fake double (2 tanks, handful of marines, and an early vulture) except that you push out a little later with a medic after you build your academy. It makes the marines way tankier and prevents them from being easily kited across the map.
Thanks, I get the SCV 60hp arguments now, especially the early game harass disadvantage and the rush advantage. I have two questions, if you guys could answer ...
1. How would it affect the game if SCVs have 50hp? 2. Scan is the universal object of "tesagi whining", how would it affect the game if Comsats have 150 energy instead of 200?
Nothing is more annoying than having a drone or probe chip away at an SCV's HP as it mines and you have to pull another worker to deny this lol. SCV HP and Scan are fine as is, no need to change them. Having one less scan in the late game can be detrimental especially playing against Zerg and they do a switch. I personally use Scan quite a bit to try and get a read on enemy positioning, units, upgrades, attack possibilities etc... I've seen pros also scanned many times simultaneously late game. Either way, things are fine as is.
Thats why I said I understand why scv hp need to be more that those of other workers, but 60 is too much when used offensively, so would 50 be a good compromise?
Mid to late game when tech switches ZvT happen, Terran would normally have 2-3 CCs, You doing multiple scans does not mean its not wanting of fix, it just means that its available. It's like you saying vulture having speed and mine upgrades are perfectly ok because you often use them. From what I understand, we are here to discuss balance, and scan and vultures (though I dont want to bring up vultures for now) are one of the most immediate things people complain about as being tesagi. The argument is scan is ok since Terrans dont have fast and flexible units that can gather information like observers and overlords, but having 4 max scans is too much, so how would 3 do? It doesnt eliminate the option, it just makes the field a little more even.
On September 14 2017 21:26 A.Alm wrote: i get warned/banned for anything but TT1 can start up a troll thread discussing BW balance?
90% of the posts here are people calling other people wrong/stupid and then 12 lines of text explaining why. the other 10% are sc2 kids coming with super legit balance suggestions.
STOP creating stupid balance discussion threads in a 19 yo game where the sc:remastered has ALREADY CAME OUT AND IS FINAL.
Well the purpose of this thread was to present a bit of data as a starting point to a balance discussion (for every matchup). Even the Korean scene is having these type of discussions.. so why can't we?
If i had to make a change i would increase the vultures build time and maybe change the siege tanks attack upgrade from +5 to +4. I didn't do the math to see whether or not +4 siege tanks could still 2 shot tanks (after 2 attack upgrades).. so that change might have an impact on TvT as well. In any case i don't think that's a bad thing. If +2 attack siege tanks can't 2 shot tanks anymore that would make midd to late game drops (in someone's main) much less punishing.
Imo the main issue is mech, stuff like SCV changes aren't necessary. Both Zerg and Terran have very strong 200/200 armies but the difference is Zerg's army is extremely hard to control whereas Terran can perfectly control their entire ball of death.
There's a give and take for Zerg, if someone is REALLY good they can master their race and become a beastly player. Even progamer Zerg's aren't able to play their race efficiently just because of how high the skill cap is. A Terran 200/200 army on the other hand has no downside, you have an extremely strong army that you can move around the map with ease. Protoss can do that as well but the downside is that our 200/200 army isn't nearly as strong as the other races.
i dont get the hate for terrans. I'm zerg and i think t has the higest skill ceiling. Look at the current top ten elo and you see 4 zergs/3t/3p..... and you are also missing the fact that p is very good at our levels
Sorry but they don't, Zerg has the highest skill cap and it isn't remotely close. I understand that P is good at lower to midd levels but we're talking about balance at the highest level.
what evidence do you have? Flash is the evidence for the terran skill ceiling. Also I agree z has the consensus highest skill ceiling but its impossible to reach it. Someone like flash can reach almost the highest skill ceiling T can offer but someone like larva/effort/jd cannot reach the impossible. Thats the diff. T has the viable highest skill ceiling possible
if it's possible, it's viable. players need to train harder and be better then.
Don't agree with any changes to vultures, tanks, scvs or scan.I would reduce medic healing rate by 5-10% because the 5 rax +1 is very strong.Other changes would be reduction in scout speed cost to 100/100 and reductions in the cost of some of the energy upgrades, wraith for example, to 100/100.
On September 15 2017 11:14 Twinkle Toes wrote: Thanks, I get the SCV 60hp arguments now, especially the early game harass disadvantage and the rush advantage. I have two questions, if you guys could answer ...
1. How would it affect the game if SCVs have 50hp? 2. Scan is the universal object of "tesagi whining", how would it affect the game if Comsats have 150 energy instead of 200?
1. Terran won't survive early game rushes as easily, but also won't bunker rush as effectively. Overall, a pretty good change.
2. It would do little since Terrans use energy to check the map. The only thing it would affect are siege tank pushes without vessels vs. Zerg (you probably want to save up all the energy you can) and play vs. Arbiters (you want to save up energy since vessels get stasised). If anything, this is the kind of change where it doesn't help Zerg almost ever (who pushes without a vessel?), but hurts Terran vs. Protoss more.
Instead of the comsat change, I would just reduce medic starting armor from 1 to 0. It would help Zergs against Terran to snipe medics with mutas, but won't affect any PvT concerns.
The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
True, TvZ mech push without Vessel is idiotic, and comsat nerf wont affect it much at all, but comsat nerf to TvP is suicidal without max scan. How about reduce area or duration of reveal? Problem with scan ZvT is that it allows T to transition late mech effectively after knowing about game situation (tech switches, army position, situations in key strategic areas, etc). In effect, scan ushers 3-3 mech push because T knows everything he needs to know about Z, and at the same time can nullify any threat Z has against mech T - lurkers, defiler, flanking units in the dark.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
Only partially true. Late BW Golden Era (my unofficial categorization) 2010s where NSK and Zero were tinkering with queens ZvT and even ZvZ(!) was the most exciting period in all of BW. Ensnare on mutalisks, on bio, key tank snipes with broodlings were all fun to play and fun to watch. But that got figured out pretty quickly, at least in TvZ.
Terrans just learned to turret with more reckless abandon. Watch one of the last games between Flash and Zero where Zero's 6+ queens where rendered useless due to spammed turrets all over the map, and were later easily removed by Irradiate and a Valk. Soon, Light, Fantasy, and even motherfucking Leta were copying it.
I mean queens are nice, and theoretically should be sound countered to lategame T, but the come so late and need so much energy, and are paperthin that if you add them to an already micro and hotkey-intensive zerg army, you would need an additional finger on each hand, an 100+ increase in apm, AND a nerf of queens' spell energy.
On September 14 2017 23:38 _Animus_ wrote: That 60 hp scvs always give unfair advantage to terran in rushes, not only in defensive perspective. The easiest way for a terran to win a game in 1 min is bunker rush and that often happens. I would like to see a percentage statistic with wins gained by scv or bunker rush. Or how easy is to hold hydra rush when 12 shots kill 1 scv? 45 or 50 hp wouldve been just fine.
SCV health obviously helps in rushes, but in what way is it unfair? Are you losing lots of games to bunker rush in PVT? It can be defended easily even with 12 nexus. This is like me complaining that zealots having more health than marines is an "unfair advantage to Protoss in rushes."
Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush. Also its the only worker that takes 2 dt shots to be killed and have the magical ability to run thru storm and not die, which is a kinda unfair.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
What you could do is make ensnared units cast animations take a lot longer. That would be a buff to ensnaring m&m, but will leave just about everything the same.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
What you could do is make ensnared units cast animations take a lot longer. That would be a buff to ensnaring m&m, but will leave just about everything the same.
This is a nice suggestion. And imagine all the ZVZ muta+q vs.muta+q ensnare dodge
Hey TT1 what do you think about the fact Terran supposedly takes quite a bit more APM than Zerg? Is that a proof that Terran takes more skill than Zerg. I saw your post about Zerg being harder in your opinion because it is harder to macro larva and you have too many units for hotkeys. I think it is a good interesting discussion. But maps are probably the answer to inherent T>Z by 5% and Z>P by 10%.
For the TvZ and TvP matchup I would suggest: a slight buff to drones and probes (+5hp), tired of well executed bunker rushes and vultures killing super effectively a slight buff to queen hp, that an irradiate would only bring it to minimal health. This would make queens cost efficient against turrets/irradiates and enable the zerg army to better duke out with 4-5 valkyries
I love BW, but I would really like to see top zergs and protosses do better
On September 16 2017 09:12 Alpha-NP- wrote: Hey TT1 what do you think about the fact Terran supposedly takes quite a bit more APM than Zerg? Is that a proof that Terran takes more skill than Zerg. I saw your post about Zerg being harder in your opinion because it is harder to macro larva and you have too many units for hotkeys. I think it is a good interesting discussion. But maps are probably the answer to inherent T>Z by 5% and Z>P by 10%.
Terran requires more APM? According to who? Zerg usually has more EAPM than the other races because they move their units around the map the most (it's also harder to macro properly with Z). EffOrt is probably the fastest progamer atm. Typically T/Z have more apm than P but it varies from player to player (i.e: Bisu etc.).
On September 16 2017 09:12 Alpha-NP- wrote: Hey TT1 what do you think about the fact Terran supposedly takes quite a bit more APM than Zerg? Is that a proof that Terran takes more skill than Zerg. I saw your post about Zerg being harder in your opinion because it is harder to macro larva and you have too many units for hotkeys. I think it is a good interesting discussion. But maps are probably the answer to inherent T>Z by 5% and Z>P by 10%.
Terran requires more APM? According to who? Zerg usually has more EAPM than the other races because they move their units around the map the most (it's also harder to macro properly with Z). EffOrt is probably the fastest progamer atm. Typically T/Z have more apm than P but it varies from player to player (i.e: Bisu etc.).
Zergs' macro is forgiving. You can fail to macro for up to 3 larvas and not lose anything of armysize. You can only get into timing dangers.
with terrans, if you fail to macro for the duration of 2 buildcycles of a tank, those 2 tanks cannot be made up for, ever.
skill goes beyond how much apm is required to have good mechanics with a race because there is also a lot of decision making involved, its not necessarily more complicated because you do more actions, it can be more mechanical but easier to decide. Also sometimes its an issue of checking some stuff constantly to be ready to jump back or forth or just react rly quickly that makes you want to get more apm. Imo thats why P is typically less apm intensive but takes just as much skill to play, thats how i see it anyway.
I mean theres mechanical skills and there are decision making skills
B- with P with <100apm, sounds real tough though ^^
On September 16 2017 09:12 Alpha-NP- wrote: Hey TT1 what do you think about the fact Terran supposedly takes quite a bit more APM than Zerg? Is that a proof that Terran takes more skill than Zerg. I saw your post about Zerg being harder in your opinion because it is harder to macro larva and you have too many units for hotkeys. I think it is a good interesting discussion. But maps are probably the answer to inherent T>Z by 5% and Z>P by 10%.
Terran requires more APM? According to who? Zerg usually has more EAPM than the other races because they move their units around the map the most (it's also harder to macro properly with Z). EffOrt is probably the fastest progamer atm. Typically T/Z have more apm than P but it varies from player to player (i.e: Bisu etc.).
Zergs' macro is forgiving. You can fail to macro for up to 3 larvas and not lose anything of armysize. You can only get into timing dangers.
with terrans, if you fail to macro for the duration of 2 buildcycles of a tank, those 2 tanks cannot be made up for, ever.
Zerg's macro is harder compared to the other races because T/P have all their production facilities in 1 spot, whereas Zerg has them spread out all over the map. You need to f key and hotkey production facilities way more than the other races.
Terran and Toss can hotkey 1 of their gates or facts, double tap that key then cycle through all their production facilities to macro. Zerg can't do that, they need to hotkey multiple hatcheries (the high lvl Z's hotkey ~6 hatcheries separately) on top of having to manage way more units than the other races.
I think deciding what to produce with the larvas with Z is way tough to decide too so that makes their macro harder in a non mechanical way too^^ it just feels like there are a lot of possibilities that can be good or bad and have significant impact on the game for each larva used :O and every building you make in essence costs a larva^^ that you can plan on.. supply, drone, or a unit of different cost and stength.. even waiting for a bunch of larvas to delay making a decision :O
On September 16 2017 09:36 niteReloaded wrote: I was C-/C Terran on ICC. I think I've never been beaten by a Terran with <100 apm.
I have, on the other hand, been murdered by some Zergs with <100 apm.
I think you can hardly get to D+ with <100 apm as Terran, while you can get to C- or C with Zerg, and like B- with toss lol.
just my opinion tho, and of course, even if it were to be true, it doesn't say much about higher levels of competition.
Anecdotal. Besides, you lie if you say <100 apm zerg can beat a C/C- terran.
On September 16 2017 09:36 niteReloaded wrote: Zergs' macro is forgiving. You can fail to macro for up to 3 larvas and not lose anything of armysize. You can only get into timing dangers.
with terrans, if you fail to macro for the duration of 2 buildcycles of a tank, those 2 tanks cannot be made up for, ever.
Zerg macro is more unforgiving than Terran and Protoss. From your statements, I think you don't know zerg at all. Zerg macro is all about timing. Correctly use a larva now, then you have a larva for the next timing cycle. Miss a larva now and you miss the next cycle. For P and T, miss it now and it only means that it is delayed in entering the game. For Zerg, it's literally one unit that will never be if you miss the timing.
I could explain this further if it is still not clear to you.
On September 16 2017 09:12 Alpha-NP- wrote: Hey TT1 what do you think about the fact Terran supposedly takes quite a bit more APM than Zerg? Is that a proof that Terran takes more skill than Zerg. I saw your post about Zerg being harder in your opinion because it is harder to macro larva and you have too many units for hotkeys. I think it is a good interesting discussion. But maps are probably the answer to inherent T>Z by 5% and Z>P by 10%.
Terran requires more APM? According to who? Zerg usually has more EAPM than the other races because they move their units around the map the most (it's also harder to macro properly with Z). EffOrt is probably the fastest progamer atm. Typically T/Z have more apm than P but it varies from player to player (i.e: Bisu etc.).
It comes from an old thread that may be outdated. But the conclusion was that Terran took more apm and multitasking than Zerg. I'd like to come to a definite conclusion. But your the expert not me.
I don't know if you can directly compare the APM of Terran and Zerg. Even with EAPM, it leaves out a lot. For example, you can easily get EAPM over 1000 by just spamming hotkeys and control groups- it doesn't *do* anything, but it's "effective".
I think Terran has more of the fiddly mouse micro (click scv, click to repair, click building to liftoff, click tank to siege, click vulture to lay mine, etc) while zerg is more about zooming around the map with lots of control groups. Not that Terran doesn't use control groups, or zerg doesn't have fiddly mouse stuff, but it's just more with each. That would explain the general consensus that Terran requires the most mechanics/hand speed, but Zerg players often have the highest EAPM.
I have a theory that the high number of Terran bonjwas is influenced by the mirrors. A Terran who excels in TvT is likely to do well in the other match-ups but ZvZ is almost like a completely different game than ZvT or ZvP. To be a dominant Zerg you have to posses a greater variety of disparate skills than a Terran or a Protoss. This is part of what makes Jaedong such a treasure. I feel that if ZvZ played out a little more like ZvT and ZvP we would have seen a higher number of Zerg Bonjwas.
On September 16 2017 13:16 DepressionSC wrote: I have a theory that the high number of Terran bonjwas is influenced by the mirrors. A Terran who excels in TvT is likely to do well in the other match-ups but ZvZ is almost like a completely different game than ZvT or ZvP. To be a dominant Zerg you have to posses a greater variety of disparate skills than a Terran or a Protoss. This is part of what makes Jaedong such a treasure. I feel that if ZvZ played out a little more like ZvT and ZvP we would have seen a higher number of Zerg Bonjwas.
Perhaps there's an element of truth to this. Zerg-versus-zerg is so micro-management-centric that it actually is more beneficial to use your arrow keys to maneuver the screen around, because it leads to more precise micro-management, a trait that was seen in a lot of micro-management-centric players such as BoxeR or Crazy-Hydra. This particular trait would be more of a hindrance in more macro-management-focused match-ups.
It's a good thing Jaedong managed a way to master zerg-versus-zerg even without that particular trait, but I personally believe that he could have been trained into an unstoppable (not a figure of speech, but literally unstoppable) zerg-versus-zerg machine if his team really wanted to develop Jaedong as a pure zerg-verus-zerg sniper.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
Yeah Queens only work on D level ICCUP players like Flash and Last. /s
Seriously, just because "counters exist" doesn't mean Queens aren't viable. They are. That doesn't mean they are right for every single game or situation, but they have use in high level ZvT.
It's not fair to say "look at BW's history, how few games Queens are used" -- well they are used now, get used to it.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
I, as protoss, met queens may be couple of times from the same player (zealot.hero was his name, iirc). And playing ZvT, my style is hydra ling lurker with ensnare, it's availible at t2 and overall feels fresh and fun after tonns of standart games. Of course, it's for the D-guys like myself, and, let's be honest, the majority of BW population.
On September 16 2017 09:36 niteReloaded wrote: Zergs' macro is forgiving. You can fail to macro for up to 3 larvas and not lose anything of armysize. You can only get into timing dangers.
with terrans, if you fail to macro for the duration of 2 buildcycles of a tank, those 2 tanks cannot be made up for, ever.
Zerg macro is more unforgiving than Terran and Protoss. From your statements, I think you don't know zerg at all. Zerg macro is all about timing. Correctly use a larva now, then you have a larva for the next timing cycle. Miss a larva now and you miss the next cycle. For P and T, miss it now and it only means that it is delayed in entering the game. For Zerg, it's literally one unit that will never be if you miss the timing.
I could explain this further if it is still not clear to you.
Technically if you miss a macro cycle on Terran or Protoss, it's the same as that unit "never existing", assuming a system with a finite limit on game time and perfect macro. The only difference is you can't queue up the unit as Zerg and make your money go away, you have to build more hatcheries to get rid of excess money.
People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
Yeah Queens only work on D level ICCUP players like Flash and Last. /s
Seriously, just because "counters exist" doesn't mean Queens aren't viable. They are. That doesn't mean they are right for every single game or situation, but they have use in high level ZvT.
It's not fair to say "look at BW's history, how few games Queens are used" -- well they are used now, get used to it.
Yeah you will see queens are on an upward trend on Afreeca streams. I've seen them be effective even when used less-than-optimally. I'm positive we will see more of them going forward in the ASL.
On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote: People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
bruh.. zergs have been doing it more and more vs the mech switch in zvt. what are you on lol
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Incomplete. Fantasy played in 7 semifinals, just like Savior (on one MSL he was eliminated by Flash, on other MSL by JD)
Also skill and achievements of Jangbi and Fantasy before 2010 are massively underrated. Fantasy had pretty big 2008 and 2009 with 2 finals he barely lost and 1 semifinal, had at one moment 4 consecutive wins against Jaedong at his peak and had respectable PL record. He was criticized for inconsistent TvZ but to be fair - his TvZ was at the time pretty strong matchup, what is seen with his great matches against JD at the time. I would put him along with Stork for that matter. Jangbi was considered best PvT player along with Stork, whose reputation as PvT monster was pretty badly damaged by bad final record, he also had multiple final appearances, however he was criticized for his PvZ. IMO he can be easily put along with Stork and Fantasy even with his bad PL record.
IMO the legacy of those players were massively hit by their slump in 2010. While Fantasy at last get into the semifinal of MSL, when he was barely eliminated by all-time-form Flash, Jangbi was hit by the slump so hard that he almost looked like a noob.
4 terran players, 4 zerg players, and 3 protoss players.
Incomplete. Fantasy played in 7 semifinals, just like Savior (on one MSL he was eliminated by Flash, on other MSL by JD)
Also skill and achievements of Jangbi and Fantasy before 2010 are massively underrated. Fantasy had pretty big 2008 and 2009 with 2 finals he barely lost and 1 semifinal, had at one moment 4 consecutive wins against Jaedong at his peak and had respectable PL record. He was criticized for inconsistent TvZ but to be fair - his TvZ was at the time pretty strong matchup, what is seen with his great matches against JD at the time. I would put him along with Stork for that matter. Jangbi was considered best PvT player along with Stork, whose reputation as PvT monster was pretty badly damaged by bad final record, he also had multiple final appearances, however he was criticized for his PvZ. IMO he can be easily put along with Stork and Fantasy even with his bad PL record.
IMO the legacy of those players were massively hit by their slump in 2010. While Fantasy at last get into the semifinal of MSL, when he was barely eliminated by all-time-form Flash, Jangbi was hit by the slump so hard that he almost looked like a noob.
If there is a tie, I will take into account their other placements to break the tie.
sAviOr accomplished more from the seven times he reached the semi-finals than any other player. That is the reason why I didn't have Bisu on that particular list either, despite the fact he also reached seven semi-finals.
As for JangBi, I actually think he was one of the most talented protoss players of all time. For the longest time, I actually thought he was the most talented in terms of sheer skill cap. There was so much hype about JangBi back in 2006 on FighterForum, that it was impossible not to think he would become a protoss bonjwa one day. The guy was said to be already one of the best players on Samsung Khan during practice, like when Stork, the protoss ace of the team and one of the best protoss-versus-protoss players in the scene at the time, played against JangBi on his first day on the team, he was soundly beaten by the wunderkid.
However, being good at the professional level requires more than that. JangBi didn't have good mental resilience, and suffered terribly from stage fright. He was one of those players who was only godlike during practice. When he didn't get the financial support he felt he deserved from the team, he literally sabotaged his professional career by refusing to practice at all. Talent aside, there's no way in hell he can be put easily alongside Stork as a competitive gamer. His highs may have been fantastic, but the lows of his career are just too significant to overlook.
Championships: Stork (1) versus JangBi (2) Finals or above: Stork (5) versus JangBi (4) Semi-finals or above: Stork (8) versus JangBi (5) Quarter-finals or above: Stork (12) versus JangBi (6) Round of sixteen or above: Stork (24) versus JangBi (8)
Yes, when JangBi felt like practicing, or things were going just right for him, he was capable of doing just as much, if not more so than Stork. But the fact of the matter is, for the vast majority of his career, he was not. Stork was the ace player of his team even if JangBi was putting forth superior results during practice, Stork was the one qualifying for all the tournaments while JangBi sulked about not being paid enough, or not keeping his composure and getting knocked out early by the most random opponents. Even TheRock had more instances of progressing to the round of sixteen than JangBi. Let that sink in for a moment.
Stork's all-time ProLeague record including the play-off stages: 191-121 (61.1%) JangBi's all-time ProLeague record including the play-off stages: 109-106 (50.7%)
JangBi has the poorest record in the ProLeague out of all the Six Dragons. Stork is tied with Bisu for third (out of every single professional player in existence) in terms of number of ProLeague victories. Like I said, JangBi was the ultimate hot and cold player in recent years. He may have been a superior player to Stork in terms of pure gaming ability, but was terrible at converting his talent for the game into tangible results as a competitive gamer, which is what professional Brood War is all about. Winning under a competitive setting. Not winning when everything is going exactly as you wished or hoped for. Not winning during practice with nothing to push you out of your comfort zone.
JangBi is in my opinion one of the worst players of all time in terms of managing his professional career, and only showed glimpses of genius throughout his entire career. One of the best protoss players of all time when he was firing all cylinders? Definitely. Easily on the level of Stork in terms of his overall career achievements? Not so much. Perhaps it's different from a pure fan perspective. The nature of his career is so engaging, and he feels like a superlative talent. However, from a competitive stand-point, Stork was head and shoulders above JangBi, even if JangBi managed to win one more title, in my opinion. Who would you purchase out of the two if you were in charge of a professional team back then?
On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote: People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
bruh.. zergs have been doing it more and more vs the mech switch in zvt. what are you on lol
Indeed. And they first started getting used by zero way back in like...2010? 2011? Half a decade of use is pretty long...
While if I had to give an edge to one race on BW I'd choose Terran, the 'advantage' really doesn't represent much and I think the statistics we're all working with are more about players than about general balance. Terran simply had the most talented guys, with the best competitive mindsets. Flash and iloveoov are/were winning machines, NaDa wasn't nearly as hardworking but is, by general consensus, the biggest genius in BW history.
My point is, if those three had all picked Protoss or Zerg, we would be having a very different conversation.
Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote: People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
What the hell? You guys are so certain and so wrong at the same time that it's baffling. Queens have never been as used as nowadays. It's almost a necessity in split map scenarios against terrans. Jaedong can't use them, so he's going for the drops everywhere approach, but other zergs when they get to a certain time of the game, they make 12 or more queens and let it gather energy.
Ts are making valks now but it can be killed easily by scourges. It's just a matter of how good of an economy Zs have. WHen Larva gets a 3rd gas early, it's 100% certain that either he wins the game before it gets there or he'll end up making Queens. Because if he gets the 3rd fast, that snowballs and he'll et the 4th even earlier. You'll need queens late game. Sometimes he makes like two groups of queens, so he can round them.
It's a matter if they can hold the T before Queens kick in. And often enough, they can. Really hard to beat Ts late game in split map scenarios without queens or without harassing everywhere (JD approach).
We'll prolly see it on Crossing Field /FS in this ASL if we get games where both users play standard and it gets to late game ZvT.
Are there any stats on how often zerg wins zvt, when the game gets into late game queens vs mech? My impression is that zerg loses a lot more than they win in that situation. They *can* win, but it's just such an uphill battle against a maxed out 3/3 mech army, especially once Terran fills up the map with turrets and mines.
But maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea because most of the games I've seen like that have been Larva vs. Flash or Last, and they're both godly at using huge mech armies. How does it work against other players?
What would happen to Zs before, not sure, 2007? If they had the same number of bases as the Terran? They'd get destroyed most of the time. So was there a balance patch to make terrans stronger or they simply developed strategies with the help of new maps that they can match Zerg FE and still deny Zergs the 3rd gas?
T was always the stronger race but Z and P had the advantage of expoing earlier due to better mobility and if matched, taking a 3rd way earlier than the Terran. That doesn't happen anymore. With one barrack they can bank rush both races, Zs found a way to stop it but still by losing a lot of mining time. By microing a bit far from the base 6+ Drones against ~3 scvs and the incoming marines.Against P it's almost impossible to beat if you go 12nex. Ts will send 12 scvs and bunker rush you.
It's so hard that I've seen Sea open up with a fast CC build then find Best doing a 12nexus on andromeda and still successfully bunker Rush Best. They do Barrack/Depot - Bunker Rush into CC against Zergs quite consistently too.
I've written all this to say: changing anything about the units will change the late game's meta so hard that its gonna be a mess. We all knew since after our first week playing BW that Ts were supposedly weaker early game and stronger late in the game. So, if we gotta do something I feel Blizzard should start with messing with the bunker's HP. Reduce it to not sure how much. It'd need to be tested but that'd bring back the scenarios where P and Z(more eco friendly FE) could safely expo faster than T without being bunker rushed and therefore would end all this BS about game imbalance.
"Oh, but that would take out the bunker rush!!!". Nope. Thats why I didn't mention anything about making it more expensive. If you wanna bunker rush then go for BBS like in the old days. Going 1barrack rush and transitioning into a fast CC is too easy for the Ts.
200-250HP would do it? Not sure.
So yeh, that's my humble yet 'elitist' take on this supposedly imbalance issue. Don't want blizzard touching units because once they start, they may make things much worse.
On September 17 2017 12:31 Luddite wrote: Are there any stats on how often zerg wins zvt, when the game gets into late game queens vs mech? My impression is that zerg loses a lot more than they win in that situation. They *can* win, but it's just such an uphill battle against a maxed out 3/3 mech army, especially once Terran fills up the map with turrets and mines.
But maybe I'm just getting the wrong idea because most of the games I've seen like that have been Larva vs. Flash or Last, and they're both godly at using huge mech armies. How does it work against other players?
It's a matter of how good your economy is. As I said, if you aren't much ahead of the T, you either take the JD approach or you'll end up going for Queens. Still, I'd bet some money that the win ratio is much better than when they try to deal with Terran's mech ball using brute force.
It's not a 'tricky' build anymore. It's almost standard, we don't seel everygame because very few games go to late game. Ts are working on countering it because seeing 12 tanks disappear can make them lose the game quite fast. Now they'll start to remaking Vessels after some point and even some go for Valks, also because the Muta switch can also be devastating. The late game ZvT became a Cat and Mouse battle. It's a beauty.
I gave up on the match up when the fast hive/tech to swarm became popular but now its my favorite match up to watch on Dual FPVods.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
Top progamers indeed used them, in a grand total of 2 or 3 games at most in all of BW history. As I said earlier, queens in ZvT are nice, but the fad died as soon as it saw use. Terrans just spammed turrets and added a one or two valks to the late mech+SV army. Then all investment in mineral, gas, and time to accumulate energy for the zergs are completely nullified - resources that could be put to better use by getting Ultras and Defilers.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
Yeah Queens only work on D level ICCUP players like Flash and Last. /s
Seriously, just because "counters exist" doesn't mean Queens aren't viable. They are. That doesn't mean they are right for every single game or situation, but they have use in high level ZvT.
It's not fair to say "look at BW's history, how few games Queens are used" -- well they are used now, get used to it.
The bolded "/s" is redundant; your idiocy is already massively apparent through your statements.
I made 3 or 4 posts on this topic already in the last couple of pages, and for your sake, I will summarize them here: highest prolevel ZvT queens are nice and exciting, but terrans easily found a cheap hard counter that this strategy was never even thought of again. In lower level games (such as D/D+ ICCup) where the margin for error is far far wider and knowledge of the game is not as immaculate, this strategy could work.
To elaborate. From 2010-2011/2012 when the skill level in BW was at its absolute peak, queens as an answer to lategame mech were tried for a few games. There was a reason why that strategy was never seen again in the rest of the individual and team leagues after a couple or so game. See, to get lategame zvt queens to be effective as intended, you have to of course spawn queens - not just 1 or 2, but perhaps 5-6 at least (as done in actual progames) so that you have enough to snipe the mass of tanks at that point in the game and also to cycle the energy efficiently. Needless to say, that required minerals and gas. Nevermind minerals as any good pro zerg lategame would have no problem with minerals and would just be dumping them at lings and lords. But gas is precious lategame for ultralisks, hydra-lurkers, and defilers. That's just item number 1, namely spawning queens. Now, you also need to research brrodling (and maybe ensnare), which is another gas dump. Moreover, broodling need 150/250 max queen energy, so it takes practically forever to have a chance for a single snipe and you have to wait again for another chance. (I will save the unit properties of the queen later)
This all means that lategame zvt, while terran is massing tanks, vults, and even a few mms, and bulking them up to their unstoppable 3/3 level, you are skimping on ultralisks and lurkers FOR A CHANCE to snipe tanks. Again as I said multiple times, its exciting and clever - IF IT WORKS. To go back a bit, did you notice two things I purposely didnt mention in the lategame mech army? Yes, scvs and SVs.
I will not theorycraft on the outcome of this strategy but instead narrate how it occurred in the actual games that it was played. So Flash was sitting on key positions in the map with tanks, gols, and vults waiting for Zero to dry up and to waste his army while his vultures are constantly raiding stray units and bases. The time has come and Zero (and in another game NSK) move out with his dark swarmed ultra-ling-lurker army, and surprise!!! QUEENS!!! Flash loses some ground but readjusts, merely on the strength of the immovable 3/3 mech army. Makes a couple of Valks, and teams it up with the SVs to hunt for the queens. Meanwhile, in the main battle fields, he spams a million turrets around his army. Now Zero is done playing around and proceeds with another push. Voila, not only was he greeted by a stronger and more organized tank wass, but his queens cant even get in range bacause of the turrets. once the jig was up and Flash has an idea where the queens are, the Valk+SV go hunting. Not only are the queens "attackless", they are also paper-thin. A couple irradiates and a few valk airbombs erase the queens, and the short-lived strategy, in existence.
The take home lesson here is that going queens come at the cost of reducing your main army or delaying upgrades. On the terran side, the things he needs to deal with queens are already in play anyway, and all those investment for the strategy I mentioned above are countered by a mere 100 mineral building and removed from the game by things that terran already has, at no additional cost to adjust to the strategy.
So, unless there is a new and effective meta, or the terran is an idiot, this strategy is much more likely to fail than succeed. It was tried before and it is being tried now in the SC:R revival. Still no success. Show me otherwise and I will withdraw my statement.
On September 15 2017 14:11 tomatriedes wrote: The game was more balanced before mech switch became so popular and perfected. Rather than nerfing terran units I would like to see a small energy buff to queens to make them more efficient.
Watch Larva and ZerO man. Queens are plenty efficient already. One reason this is is watch Flash's video on the mech switch where he says you basically want only tanks. This means queens have no counter in the terran army for the most part.
I never said queens are of no use, just that tweaking them would help with balance.
Would be nice if mass queen broodlings were useful for us regular folks, instead of being so difficult that only top pros could use them.
To be honest, queens might have even found more use in D level ICCup ZvT where are just having fun playing the game and not really minding the perfect BO or strat win. If I were playing zerg against a D or E level terran, I'd put queens in play 100% of the time the game reaches late lair tech.
I, as protoss, met queens may be couple of times from the same player (zealot.hero was his name, iirc). And playing ZvT, my style is hydra ling lurker with ensnare, it's availible at t2 and overall feels fresh and fun after tonns of standart games. Of course, it's for the D-guys like myself, and, let's be honest, the majority of BW population.
So, unless there is a new and effective meta, or the terran is an idiot, this strategy is much more likely to fail than succeed. It was tried before and it is being tried now in the SC:R revival. Still no success. Show me otherwise and I will withdraw my statement.
...theres thousands of ladder and tournament games showing it succeed.
Ok, i read a few replies and it got me curious. I'm not dogmatic and I argue based on evidence that I'm aware of, but a lot of you have been saying that lategame ZvT queens are popular and successful.
I may be OOTL, but could anyone link a 2016 or 2017 game using this strat successfully?
So, unless there is a new and effective meta, or the terran is an idiot, this strategy is much more likely to fail than succeed. It was tried before and it is being tried now in the SC:R revival. Still no success. Show me otherwise and I will withdraw my statement.
...theres thousands of ladder and tournament games showing it succeed.
I can't wade through all the ladder games, besides I think we want to limit our discussion to prolevel. Anyway, could you link me some progames? thanks
On September 17 2017 13:34 Twinkle Toes wrote: Ok, i read a few replies and it got me curious. I'm not dogmatic and I argue based on evidence that I'm aware of, but a lot of you have been saying that lategame ZvT queens are popular and successful.
I may be OOTL, but could anyone link a 2016 or 2017 game using this strat successfully?
Thanks
Go to the Larva thread, like half of the vods people link there are him using queens successfully.
Thanks Luddite. But I'm gonna need some help lol. What the hell is the Larva thread? His fan thread? I came from BW but swtiched totally to SC2, but then enjoyed that BW is kinda back with ASL and SC:R. But I have zero anything about BW between 2012-2017
On September 17 2017 14:12 Twinkle Toes wrote: Thanks Luddite. But I'm gonna need some help lol. What the hell is the Larva thread? His fan thread? I came from BW but swtiched totally to SC2, but then enjoyed that BW is kinda back with ASL and SC:R. But I have zero anything about BW between 2012-2017
2015 game, ZerO vs Last: Last made the finals in the previous SSL losing a close series to sSak and was a favourite. ZerO won a nice game on Circuit Breaker which is considered somewhat balanced to eliminate Last. In 2016/17, we've seen Larva beat Flash using queens on Camelot and other maps on his streams during the last ASL etc... Some zergs prefer drops, other queens but they are still viable to a degree in the matchup.
Ok so I did some due diligence. And thanks Dazed and BigFan for the above vids.
I just finished watching 5, maybe 6, lategame zvt mech vs queens. Here's my conclusion:
Yeah I was totally ignorant of the developments in this strategy, it's seeing a lot of play since I last watched BW. Sorry about that, ok?
I notice the strategy is viable (short of being actually completely successful) in two specific situations: first, in balanced (non terran favored) maps where z have a fighting chance to fight mech without navigating through choke points, too much elevated areas where tanks can dominate pretty much uncontested, vast expanse of "buildable" land where t can spam turrets, AND plenty of "groundless" areas where queens can hide while regenerating energy;
second. when it is SUPER lategame when both parties are scavenging for the last few hundreds remaining in mineral and gas patches. In this situations, queens are crucial in counteracting small raiding parties of vulture and tanks, especially if it comes with dark swarm and ultralings. They are also useful as escorts to z's own raiding armies and reducing t's defenses sniping stray tanks and goliaths, HOWEVER...
In peak lategame mech when both parties are still in full eco and military might, queens are meatbags during engagement and have to be used with utmost care, or have to be hidden away and saved for later.
Scourge are an ok (but not metashifting) reply to mech SV. and could be good if t has suboptimal goliath and turret count.
The muta switch was inspired!
All those queens and not one case of Infested CC, dayum!
THEREFORE, correct me if I'm wrong, the winning strategy for zerg seems to be: constant aggro to prevent mech accumulating to its full power at max, reduce or remove lurkers in favor of queens and spire tech, superhuman apm with queen-broodling and plague+darkswarm, in addition to the usual atm-intensive army control, mech switches to keep t honest between tank+vult and gols, while z is always a step ahead in army advantage, and a balanced map.
It's doable but extremely difficult for zerg, and not necessarily full-fledged winning strategy at this point. I don't ever see this as a go to mainstream strategy unless there is a more effective variation developed later. But it's exciting how this will be tweaked further and how it would fair against peak terran like flash-level circa 2012. I hope BW makes a proper mainstream comeback so we could see this and more.
And while this is a balance thread, let me punch in a few whines. In all of the zvt ive watched, there were key stretches in lategame where zerg was throwing down 500/500+- on ultralings only to be completely nullified by 9 mines from 3 vultures lol. the zergs are practically breaking the bank and all terran has to do is pull 2-3 vultures and plant mines in rally points or in mineral patches and the zerg army literally disappears, even before the vultures themselves engage. so funny. tldr: vulture and vulture mines imba
Don't forget this amazing (queen) game either. Jaedong vs Flash in the deciding match of Moo vs Neox in the ACL from this summer. I've never seen anything like this before or after.
IMO the game is ALMOST perfectly balanced. Of course some match ups will be harder for some races like PvZ and ZvT but all in all being close to 50% win ratio in all MUs is pretty darn good for a 98 game. The only thing I think is tesagi (like many others already stated) are vultures. Vultures are too good (or too cheap). Everything else is fine.
true the vulture is probably the biggest terran advantage.. I wouldn't change anything to the mines even though they're really strong because, it seems like it would be a huge change. Idk. But I think they kill workers unfair fast, I would say reducing their dmg a bit would probably be good. Ofc this would impact their damage on other targets too, and I think that wouldn't be bad. Not a huge damage reduction, something like 2 or 4 damage less, they would kill workers in 3 shots, so a 50% change of effectiveness at that (in situations where no shots wasted), 4 shots for killing scvs instead of 3, and if further reduced they would also need 3 shots to kill a ling. A little less effective at killing zealots with direct damage.. Seeing how fast they are, cheap, how fast they shoot, they damage shields 100%, they have the mines, I think losing a little damage on the vulture would not be bad.
Changing the mines by making the AoE a little smaller, is that good or bad? too big a change, probably, it's a bigger change, it impacts pvt too much (though it would be less friendly fire damage for the terran too lol).
On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote: People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
bruh.. zergs have been doing it more and more vs the mech switch in zvt. what are you on lol
no, the games where Zergs were using queens were like 3-4 months ago for a while with mixed results. you won't see Larva, Effort and so on use them now. you won't see them in the ASL. they're really not worth it.
On September 18 2017 00:38 ProMeTheus112 wrote: true the vulture is probably the biggest terran advantage.. I wouldn't change anything to the mines even though they're really strong because, it seems like it would be a huge change. Idk. But I think they kill workers unfair fast, I would say reducing their dmg a bit would probably be good. Ofc this would impact their damage on other targets too, and I think that wouldn't be bad. Not a huge damage reduction, something like 2 or 4 damage less, they would kill workers in 3 shots, so a 50% change of effectiveness at that (in situations where no shots wasted), 4 shots for killing scvs instead of 3, and if further reduced they would also need 3 shots to kill a ling. A little less effective at killing zealots with direct damage.. Seeing how fast they are, cheap, how fast they shoot, they damage shields 100%, they have the mines, I think losing a little damage on the vulture would not be bad.
Changing the mines by making the AoE a little smaller, is that good or bad? too big a change, probably, it's a bigger change, it impacts pvt too much (though it would be less friendly fire damage for the terran too lol).
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
On September 16 2017 23:44 Espers wrote: People don't use Queens anymore, it was just something Zergs tried for a little while once ZvT gets to end game with 3-3 Tanks..They lack the punch to really stop the Terran push because you have to wait so long for Queen mana to regenerate enough to cast another Broodling, and as people said mixing in Valks deters Queens very well.
They're just not very good. I don't know why people mention "well it works at D", that's beside the point. It's an inferior strategy at every level.
Ensnare in the midgame probably has more potential, but not really worth delaying your Hive or having less gas for Hive stuff.
bruh.. zergs have been doing it more and more vs the mech switch in zvt. what are you on lol
no, the games where Zergs were using queens were like 3-4 months ago for a while with mixed results. you won't see Larva, Effort and so on use them now. you won't see them in the ASL. they're really not worth it.
I know for a fact that Larva has played multiple queen games in the last 30 days too.
EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not trying to say that the strategy is good or effective, but the use of queens against mech is clearly still in use on occasion.
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Chill bro, we be messin. This thread needs a light-hearted moment like this anyway
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote: dt do not 1 shot them then.
as they dont scvs.
which will make toss suck even more in all match ups
On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
ehat a toss. You benefit from easiness of the race at that level. I could understand if you are complaining ehen you are 2500 mmr+ but i just can't man. I also can't believe you said that about zvt as wrll
On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote: dt do not 1 shot them then.
as they dont scvs.
which will make toss suck even more in all match ups
On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance?
If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise.
Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1% Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3%
Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6% Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4%
When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races.
However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history.
On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote: dt do not 1 shot them then.
as they dont scvs.
which will make toss suck even more in all match ups
On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance?
If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise.
Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1% Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3%
Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6% Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4%
When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races.
However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history.
so basically this shows that cb is not zerg favored map and also confirms the idea that fs is really bad for fs
On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote: dt do not 1 shot them then.
as they dont scvs.
which will make toss suck even more in all match ups
On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
ehat a toss. You benefit from easiness of the race at that level. I could understand if you are complaining ehen you are 2500 mmr+ but i just can't man. I also can't believe you said that about zvt as wrll
I'm certainly not complaining. I main Terran and yes Toss is a nightmare to deal with at low levels but I don't see any point in complaining about the balance when I have so much room to get better. When I refer to Toss seeming under-powered I am just observing on how things seem at a very high level. Ultimately I prefer to love the game than to complain about it.
As for ZvT, I notice a ton of really strong options that Zerg has all through the game. Their dropships don't cost gas or supply and defilers are just bonkers good (not that Terran doesn't have equally strong options please remember that I feel the match-up is close to even not Zerg favored). If anything Zerg is just more difficult at high levels.
On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote: dt do not 1 shot them then.
as they dont scvs.
which will make toss suck even more in all match ups
On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance?
If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise.
Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1% Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3%
Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6% Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4%
When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races.
However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history.
I was referring to the current state of balance at the highest current skill level. My intuition regarding Protoss being under-powered was based on an observation that Protoss doesn't seem to be producing many players that seem like a championship threat right now. There are relatively few top Zergs but I feel like a higher percentage of them look like they could win a tournament. Is your chart based around a particular ELO? I am curious as to whether you agree with my assertion about the quantity of championship-level Protosses and why. You seem to have access to better information to me and I wouldn't be surprised if my superficial observations are just completely wrong although I would be interested in figuring out how that happened.
And for the record, I think Tesagi is a dumb meme since, as you said, Brood War is far from solved. I was more thinking that if dumb memes are what we are doing these days, it seems odd that no one complains about Toss being bad (at a high level anyways).
On September 18 2017 08:51 _Animus_ wrote: Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Wait until we have strategy learning AIs capable of beating flash with all races. Then we can simply run them against each other for a couple of years to see..
On September 19 2017 10:17 DepressionSC wrote: it seems odd that no one complains about Toss being bad (at a high level anyways).
Except for... every single Protoss in these threads? Also, even implying that PvT is anywhere near ZvT in terms of balance, both now and in Kespa era, is simply wrong
On September 18 2017 08:05 StorrZerg wrote: dt do not 1 shot them then.
as they dont scvs.
which will make toss suck even more in all match ups
On September 17 2017 13:30 Twinkle Toes wrote:
On September 16 2017 16:54 ninazerg wrote:
On September 15 2017 16:41 _Animus_ wrote: Well in pvz and pvt ive seen alot of pro players lose to bunker rush.
How can someone lose to a bunker rush in PvZ?
Ladies and gentlemen, undeniable irrefutable evidence of tesagi. /thread :p
Obviously a typo, i was having tvz in mind, like Mind the progamer , who accidentally bunker rushed 5 out of 6 games in a row in kongdoo tournament finals two years ago against Kwanro. The only reason he didnt bunker rush the sixth game was because Kwanro rushed him and rush was held... because scvs are 60 hp and tank infinite hits so with that game Mind won the tournament
Honestly "Toss is underpowered" would feel like a way more accurate meme than Tesagi. ZvT is way more fair than PvZ or PvT.
I would also have very few bad feelings about changing SCV health to 50.
Are you talking about balance during the professional era, or current state of balance?
If you look into the Elo-adjusted expected win rate (because a shit player like Britney going 50% against somebody clearly better like Flash is not perfect balance) for each of the match-ups on Circuit Breaker and Fighting Spirit, the most played maps in recent months, statistics says otherwise.
Circuit Breaker: Sample size of 6,386 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 44.1% Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.7% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 48.8% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 52.3%
Fighting Spirit: Sample size of 2,182 sponsored matches
Expected zerg-versus-protoss win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 43.6% Expected zerg-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 46.2% Expected protoss-versus-terran win rate between players with the same Elo rating: 47.2% Expected protoss-versus-zerg win rate between player with the same Elo rating: 56.4%
When was the last time you saw the terran race as a whole performing clearly the worst out of the three races given sufficient sample size? We can only assume what the actual balance of the game is at the highest level, since literally nobody has solved the game of Brood War, and the players are still in the process of advancing closer to pefecting their mastery of the game, and there is no reason to think the the possible skill cap for human beings has been reached already. I'm willing to keep an open mind if people think the terran race as a whole has made progressions towards theoretically perfect human play at a rate that was ahead of the other two races.
However, it is a downright lie to suggest that the terran race hasn't been putting forth superior results (however miniscule the actual disparity in results happen to be) compared to the other two races at the competitive level. The question of which race is getting shafted the most is up to discussion, and it's true that the protoss race has been at the receiving end for most of history, but it's not as clear cut as you make it out to be, as if it has been an even two-horse race between the terran and the zerg race throughout history.
I was referring to the current state of balance at the highest current skill level. My intuition regarding Protoss being under-powered was based on an observation that Protoss doesn't seem to be producing many players that seem like a championship threat right now. There are relatively few top Zergs but I feel like a higher percentage of them look like they could win a tournament. Is your chart based around a particular ELO? I am curious as to whether you agree with my assertion about the quantity of championship-level Protosses and why. You seem to have access to better information to me and I wouldn't be surprised if my superficial observations are just completely wrong although I would be interested in figuring out how that happened.
And for the record, I think Tesagi is a dumb meme since, as you said, Brood War is far from solved. I was more thinking that if dumb memes are what we are doing these days, it seems odd that no one complains about Toss being bad (at a high level anyways).
All-time ASL ranking according to their formula (which is used to seed players):
I'm not sure whether you put higher emphasis on competitive LAN tournaments like the ASL, or online sponsored matches.
The equilibrium between the three races is ever-changing, and is heavily influenced by the form of certain players, influx of new talent and ideas, advances in the meta-game, and the map pool. We're not dealing with a fixed problem here. However, it is almost an irrefutable fact that while the protoss and zerg race had points in history where they were quite clearly the worst performing races, the terran race has been relatively free from such lows throughout history, at least after BoxeR rose to power. BoxeR won his first OGN StarLeague title (as well as numerous other tournaments forgotten by the people) before the infamous 1.08 patch, so I think his rise to prominence was helped by the patch, but not a by-product of it.
It's not just the current state of the balance people have issues with, it's the fact that it's been on on-going issue that lasts for over a decade. Historically speaking, it's a fact that the terran race has done better than the other two races. It's also a fact that Flash, who also happens to be a terran player, is leading the competition on all fronts (a coincidence that dates back for years). I personally think there are two possibilites for this:
1) Either there is an inherent gaming imbalance in favour of the terran race at the highest level.
2) Or the terran race has as a whole been ahead of the curve in terms of development, specifically on the style of map pools we have come to terms with as being adequate for competitive play, for whatever reasons.
I personally lean towards the latter, because if I had total control over the map pools, I could imagine a scenario where Flash, or any terran prodigy that comes after him never wins another tournament ever again. Even if there is a problem, I'm of the opinion that we should be open to recourses other than changing the game itself, it's been done that way for years, and just like players have advanced over the years, map making has been an artform that has been worked on for over a decade also. The search for the perfectly balanced map at the competitive level has been the holy grail for all map makers. I trust that we are closer to it than when the scene was at its infancy. I have trust in the art of map making.
On September 19 2017 18:35 Jumperer wrote: I have revisited this thread and have gains new idea retarding the balance situation.
First, I thought T was the hardest race at the highest level, but after reading TT1's post I change my mind. Z is the hardest because hatcheries are spread throughout the map. Lurkers and defilers require extensive micro in ZvT not to mention all the flankings you have to do. Zerg also doesn't have enough control groups for 50000 units.
I still think SCV are OP at 60 hp. People are missing the point with their argument. Scv destroys probe and drone in 1v1 situation. People complaining about SCV dying while building a building is stupid. It literally never happens with proper micro. All you have to do is get an scv to chase a probe/drone and then replace the damaged scv with a new SCV. Hell, you can even repair. In SC2 SCV has 50 HP for a reason.
Secondly, everyone in this thread universally agreed that vulture is OP. Fastest unit in the game that can kill workers extremely fast with 3 mini nukes for 75 mineral? WTF. It also builds fast. It needs a nerf.
Furthermore, 200/200 3-3 terran mech is broken against every race and requires way too hard of an effort for other races to kill it. Terran can just brute force while controlling vessel. It's also not hard to move around the map using around 5-6 hotkeys compared to zerg 200/200.
Letmelose's data suggests that terran has been broken since 1.08. All the bonjwa with the exception of Savior has been terran. How can one race dominate for over such a long period of time across different era if the game is truly balanced?
In conclusion, terran is broken, there is no denying it. There may have been period of time where other races have slight upperhand due to adaptation/innovation, but once terran adapted to that adaptation it's simply game over for other races. The longer a pro map is in the cycle, the better the terran perform since it's the best defensive race combined with the best 200/200 army. One can only come up with so many creative timing attacks and mindgames before it get downloaded.
BTW, tank's range are broken as fuck, but nobody talks about it because the range is OP to the point of it being iconic.
Thanks for the insight. I can't believe your post isn't satire.