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put this on reddit why? don't make in unhelpful. a single line "blizz is good/bad" is unhelpful.
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Note from former DS/DH admin and Fish operator SEBUNS:
Hello, I'm translating this on behalf of fish_radio. Blizzard Korea is very disrespectful to the entire community.
This has been an issue for quite a while. Many of us disagreed on posting this given how valuable StarCraft is to us, but in light of recent issues we agreed it was time to say something to the foreign community.
For more, please contact me (SEBUNS*Op) on KakaoTalk, ID gc1999 If you want to talk to fish_radio, DM him on TeamLiquid for the ID fish_radio.
This will not be posted to the Korean community, but we're sure it'll make its way there somehow.
It has been a few months since I've talked about the background of the Korean StarCraft, and almost six months since SC:R was officially released. For almost fifteen years Fish Server served as the ultimate gaming platform to Koreans, who have recently been forced to Blizzard servers, or iCCup. Neither of these are ideal for several reasons, but we've heard that echo chamber long enough so do some research if you aren't already informed as to why.
Contrary to popular belief, StarCraft 1.16.1 with Fish Server was what most would consider stagnant for the last two years of its existence. The player base was always rising, but not enough for it to really matter. Even so, the player base was strong. The remaster was supposed to take a very old product propped up by the community, and provide basic but extremely important features. The deal was simple and acceptable; pay fifteen dollars, get the remaster. Sweet. Realistically speaking, only an idiot would complain about paying fifteen dollars for an overhaul of a game known to have horrible code. Sadly, this didn't turn out to be the case. Licensing fees, tournament fees, online-only restrictions, and bugginess continue to plague the remastered copy of the game.
Fish served no purpose after the remaster. Despite having clan features, channel features, icons, a point system, and more, it simply was no match for the 1v1 matchmaking system. With the ad panel removed, Fish had no income. Blizzard didn't mention the ad panel from the closed beta was going to be removed upon release. You know, the one that advertised the release date of the remaster. Fish was entirely non-profit and paid for out of pocket. We accepted no donations and did our best to provide the ultimate StarCraft experience. Blizzard did not include Fish in the matchmaking system nor did they provide Fish with any funding whatsoever.
Despite a very buggy release, Fish had high hopes for the game to grow on its own and shut down due to poor funding, lack of assistance from Blizzard, and a 1.16.1 server running on a (moderately) updated network that was closed source and never seen by the admins.
After seeing all sorts of issues on the remastered client like hackers and frequent crashes, some Koreans started going back to 1.16.1 using iCCup, CYaRon, and DragonHeart (DragonSquare). DH/DS shut down, as the player base did not justify the server's existence. CYaRon is an old clone of Fish with a very small player base. Koreans on iCCup are having trouble finding games, which hurts the foreign scene as well because the Join list is filled with Korean titles.
It is now 2018 and the StarCraft player base is shrinking. StarCraft's big draw before the remaster was how the community powered the game. Without being at the mercy of a corporation, StarCraft was free to be whatever the players wanted it to be. Blizzard has added too many fees for unknown LAN tournaments to start. The tournament licensing fee imposed by Blizzard on AfreecaTV has driven many sponsors away.
Us developers can't help but wonder why Blizzard thought an iron grip on the community was a good idea when before the release, they said SCR was going to be released and left at the mercy of the community. Blizzard told us it would only be touched if it needed updates in the far future. It has now been 160 days since the release of StarCraft Remastered. Many of us have quit altogether in frustration.
Patch 1.21.2 was just released... - No 2v2 ladder - No 3v3 ladder - No 4v4 ladder - No clan system - No ranks - Hackers are back - No sign of custom server support - No acknowledgement of critical security issues devs have repeatedly reported - Random lag, even with Koreans in the same city - Lots of crashes
There's much more I can add to this list. StarCraft Remastered is starting to feel like a cash grab. Support and popularity for the game is dropping fast, even on AfreecaTV where StarCraft was once considered invincible.
To make things worse, Blizzard Korea is horrible. Not only were our concerns and complaints ignored, but Blizzard Korea swore at us and told us to just play something else if we're so unhappy. We were sworn at then later removed from the Blizzard Korea chat on Skype. Blizzard Korea is also infamous for censoring and calling out users on the Korean Blizzard forums, sometimes with stickied posts giving personal information of users they don't like.
Me, SEBUNS, and other developers hope to receive some sort of acknowledgement from Blizzard. TeamLiquid is the last place we can ask for help. We can't grow a game that's out of our control. StarCraft needs a different approach as a game, a program, and a sport.
Thank you for reading this. I ask with the utmost respect that all replies are constructive. Please no one liners about Blizzard being evil or something.
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Hearing those licencing fees driving away sponsers relly hurts....the pro circuit was a huge deal for fans and the scene i hope they remove some of these licencing fees or even better contribute to the funding and prize pool of tournaments
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On January 20 2018 18:44 Shock710 wrote:Hearing those licencing fees driving away sponsers relly hurts....the pro circuit was a huge deal for fans and the scene i hope they remove some of these licencing fees or even better contribute to the funding and prize pool of tournaments sad to see overwatch and star2 get prize money. starcraft gets fined instead == why is it different for starcraft?....
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I can't say I care about 2v2/3v3/4v4 ladder or ranks or matchmaking, but the existence of hacks is a major concern. Blizzard has a pretty poor track record of handling hacks. It's also pretty clear that the third party developers were much more successful at keeping the community going than blizzard itself: simply compare the official server population to fish prior to the release of remastered. It's hard to support a company like this, when the most they ever did for starcraft even when it was still massively popular was try to shut down tournaments in favor of SC2.
What's sad to me is that it didn't have to be like this, there were so many different ways that blizzard could have approached SC2 and SC:R. That they chose an approach that basically shut down the existing community is very sad.
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Well, people are bitching about ASL being killed/bugs/etc. on the English battle.net Starcraft forums too. Very sad to hear about how Blizzard Korea is treating you guys also. Hope blizzard removes their head from their ass and starts doing positive things for the community.
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Thank you very much for the post Fish_radio. It's is disappointing that this is a happening to our loved game and it's community. I'm not sure what can be done exactly though. I sometimes feel Blizzard just wanted a quick cash grab from Brood war. Blizzard Korea swearing at you seems really rude indeed. I would think they'd have better customer service people then that.
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On January 20 2018 19:25 NoS-Craig wrote:Blizzard Korea swearing at you seems really rude indeed. I would think they'd have better customer service people then that. it's not customer service, it's the Blizzard Korea team.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 20 2018 19:40 fish_radio wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 19:25 NoS-Craig wrote:Blizzard Korea swearing at you seems really rude indeed. I would think they'd have better customer service people then that. it's not customer service, it's the Blizzard Korea team.
Customer relations/service are part of the Blizzard Korea team.
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Hatred towards blizzard just keeps growing....
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sooo why is this exclusive for tiny portion of SCR fanbase, english fanbase, when almost all the fanbase is in korea?
Doesnt make sense to me.
you can say that it smells.... fishy
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Are there really no legal loopholes that can make OpenBW run as an independant game?
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This is all very frustrating to read. I was really starting to enjoy SC:R since joining a clan and playing some non ladder games and small tournaments. But nonetheless this post is 100% right.
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i still literally can't even que in 1v1 match making, it just bugs out.. i'll always side with fish given how much fun and time i have spent on their servers, and i can't wait to see the next 1.16.1 server pop up. also, i feel like between foreigners remastered lags a LOT. like if i'm playing a 3v3 on usw, it's sure to need to go to extra high.. if i'm playing a 3v3 on korea (from the US) the lag isn't normally an issue.. very annoying.
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how the mighty have fallen
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One can only wonder in what way this is supposed to make Blizzard more money. If nothing else, a ccompany wants that. All these decisions just seem odd and achieve nothing except pissing people off? Shameful display.
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Is there a way that Fish can run again if playerbase are willing to donate or will it get shutdown by Blizz? F.e. many vanilla WoW servers running because of donations. I don't think for a 20 year old game amount to run a server will be really high, especially on old patch.
I'm really sad SB abandoned, let's see if OpenBW can become something.
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Blizzards reputation gets worse and worse... I can only convince my friends to never purchase any blizzard related stuff ever again but that will be like 5-6 less copies of... I don't know, Classic WoW?
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 20 2018 20:27 jinjin5000 wrote: sooo why is this exclusive for tiny portion of SCR fanbase, english fanbase, when almost all the fanbase is in korea?
Doesnt make sense to me.
you can say that it smells.... fishy
That's what I want to know. Not sure who you are but you can call this a message from Fish, but once again like last time there's actually 0 evidence to back up this claim what so ever. You're just spouting your opinion and hiding behind the Fish moniker when this has nothing to do with them. There;s never been a single iota of proof that you're from Fish itself.
Also you're ignoring that the people who ran Fish were shady as all hell. Jinjin can confirm
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On January 20 2018 23:17 Qikz wrote: Also you're ignoring that the people who ran Fish were shady as all hell. Jinjin can confirm. At the end of the day, we know what happens when Blizzard takes over. So i prefer everybody else but Blizz.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 20 2018 23:40 [AS]Rattus wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 23:17 Qikz wrote: Also you're ignoring that the people who ran Fish were shady as all hell. Jinjin can confirm. At the end of the day, we know what happens when Blizzard takes over. So i prefer everybody else but Blizz.
We get 2 massive twitch events that had over 30,000 viewers and a vastly renewed interest in the game?
The player count outside of Korea has gone up considerably since the iCCUP days and although Afreeca are having issues with Blizzard we don't know what those are so we shouldn't judge Blizzard on things we don't understand. Put your pitchforks away and just try and enjoy playing the game.
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On January 20 2018 21:04 friendbg wrote: Are there really no legal loopholes that can make OpenBW run as an independant game? Well, if openBW ever gets finished we can go down that road and see where it leads us.
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On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: Please no one liners about Blizzard being evil or something. Still. I mean, it was pretty obvious what would happen. Blizzard decided many, many years ago that there will be pretty much no autonomy in the BW scene. SC:R was just one of the final steps towards that. Personally, I never wanted SC:R, I was perfectly fine with BW. When SC:R hit and people switched, I left the scene. People embraced "death" willingly and I wanted to be no part of it.
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On January 20 2018 23:49 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 23:40 [AS]Rattus wrote:On January 20 2018 23:17 Qikz wrote: Also you're ignoring that the people who ran Fish were shady as all hell. Jinjin can confirm. At the end of the day, we know what happens when Blizzard takes over. So i prefer everybody else but Blizz. We get 2 massive twitch events that had over 30,000 viewers and a vastly renewed interest in the game? The player count outside of Korea has gone up considerably since the iCCUP days and although Afreeca are having issues with Blizzard we don't know what those are so we shouldn't judge Blizzard on things we don't understand. Put your pitchforks away and just try and enjoy playing the game. If i do the math, the missing Afreeca Team Battle combined with no ASL5 leaves us still deep in the red.
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United States32484 Posts
I wonder if this is posted on English forums only because Fish can't sell themselves as a faultless, saintly org in Korean communities and get away with it....?
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On April 26 2010 19:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 25 2010 12:30 J1.au wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA are both greedy companies. However if Blizzard stops BW tournaments I will never buy another of their games again.
EDIT: Also, stop hating on just KeSPA. Without them Korean BW would be nothing. They're the ones who bring stability to the scene and make it attractive to corporate sponsors. KeSPA are an awful company. They care only about the money and don't give a damn about whatever fans they have. They're just in this to make a quick buck while Brood War is still popular. Someone will easily replace KeSPA, perhaps even a better company which would be alot better for spreading the scene outside of Korea. Korea wouldn't have any foreign players mainly due to influences from Kespa, without KeSPA stopping things like that eSports could finally become a worldwide thing.
This is what you had to say when Blizzard took legal action versus KeSPA that eventually ended with the total annihilation of the professional Brood War scene. Full disclosure of all relevant information does not seem to be matters of utmost importance to you when Blizzard isn't involved. As far as I am aware of, official confirmations that foreign players were actively kept out of the scene by KeSPA are no where to be found, yet there you were throwing accusations to alter the subject.
It is rather ironic that you are scolding people for being frustrated by competitive Brood War being held back years later with clearly the same party being involved once again. People are often rotten. Companies are in general corrupt assholes who only care about money. That isn't the core issue. The reason why people are frustrated is because they are seeing competitive Brood War being held back. They know how far Blizzard have been willing to take things if they do not have things their way. The combination of those two factors alone are terrifying for anyone who truly are invested in the competitive scene.
The very foundation of competitive Brood War could be at stake, and here you are warning others of the dangers of siding against Blizzard without full information. That's fine, but don't tell others how to act. I watch Brood War to see high level games with the highest stakes available, and the only platform on which that takes place is under threat from Blizzard. That makes them accountable. I really couldn't give a rat's arse over the details that makes Blizzard act in this manner, and your constant protective stance towards Blizzard, even when it is at the cost of competitive Brood War, tells me you wouldn't be too affected if this all comes crashing down.
On August 04 2012 21:39 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2012 21:37 BLinD-RawR wrote:On August 04 2012 21:37 Tobblish wrote:On August 04 2012 21:35 Kusaji wrote: Good shit. Blizzard, I think this is a mistake.. But.. Nonetheless..
Not that Blizzard killed it, OGN and Kespa did. They moved over. bull fucking shit. OGN and KeSPA got black balled By sponsers. Blizzard doesn't control sponsers. They're not some kind of company in a dystopian future. Can we please just watch the last bits of the last BW OSL without arguing in here? T_T
The last ever OGN StarLeague to host competitive Brood War, and people were understandably upset by the fact that Ongamenet was being forced to cancel their decade long legacy. Enjoyment wasn't the natural response to come out of this particular situation.
You seem to have a really unhealthy fixation on having good vibes towards Blizzard even when it all comes crashing down. That's your prerogative, but please understand that some people's priorities are different from yours. There's nothing more condescending than telling people to calm the fuck down because you personally aren't devastated by what's going on.
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On January 20 2018 23:49 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 23:40 [AS]Rattus wrote:On January 20 2018 23:17 Qikz wrote: Also you're ignoring that the people who ran Fish were shady as all hell. Jinjin can confirm. At the end of the day, we know what happens when Blizzard takes over. So i prefer everybody else but Blizz. We get 2 massive twitch events that had over 30,000 viewers and a vastly renewed interest in the game? The player count outside of Korea has gone up considerably since the iCCUP days and although Afreeca are having issues with Blizzard we don't know what those are so we shouldn't judge Blizzard on things we don't understand. Put your pitchforks away and just try and enjoy playing the game.
The foreign base is insignificant and lets be real, those 30k at least in the last tournament were becuase the players were very known casters, or you can see those 30k populating Battle.net? (not at all), if you see the figures in Korea the game is shrinking quite fast and once BW Korea is dead, the real and competitive game is dead too, RM has been the final nail in the coffin for BW, ironic but true.
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On January 21 2018 01:39 Waxangel wrote: I wonder if this is posted on English forums only because Fish can't sell themselves as a faultless, saintly org in Korean communities and get away with it....? That's what I was thinking. Fish_radio was quick to pull the trigger on blaming blizzard for the takedown of Fish if anyone remembers when there was no proof and it turns out there was a generalized ban on private servers due to some new law in korea.
I am not advocating or defending blizzard, I think it's shitty that ASL is being held up but we don't have both sides of the story. The starcraft community is generally a pretty mature one, hopefully everyone can maintain some level of maturity during this.
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Serious problems it seems overall.
fish_radio, can you better structure the problems into a terse summary, break the whole text into a list of numbered/categorized items? So that we will better and clearly understand the actual problems, discuss individual solutions to them. Make the forum thread constructive (or create another one), not growing it into a collection hopeless messages and talks of inexact stuff.
Foreign community highly depends on what's going on in the Korean community. While there's a delay when it actually hits the foreign community, finally foreign community is affected by a lot.
Currently, it's not clear what is needed the solve what problems exactly. Petitions, announcements, website or special software development, funding, new organizations, representatives and influential people to contact Blizzard directly, etc.
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This is why esports can never be taken seriously. Not because "a bunch of nerds playing video games and it's not a real sport" but because petty companies like Blizzard own the rights of potential esport games like Starcraft. How can and how will it be sustainable for 10 or more years if after 20 years Blizzard still can't let this shit go. I'm not even talking about online only games like CsGO or Dota2 because it's out of the question already due to company bound servers and such.
How can young players devote their lives (because that's how sports become serious and nationally recognized) if they don't even know that their game will last 10 years let alone 2 or 3.
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I dislike that Blizzard is not allowing tournaments to run, that is beyond stupid and I wish they would just let the Koreans host tournaments as they please.
I do not think remastered was a cash grab. I guarantee that Remastered barely made Blizzard money compared to all their other products. I feel like Blizzards intentions were good, but they fucked up bad with their tournament requirements and still not including features.
I think Remastered is great and I enjoyed it. The fact that there is still no ranking system is beyond stupid, I figured that would be coming within a month of release. I miss ASL, really want it to come back soon. Hope Blizzard gets off their asses and gets this situation resolved.
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On January 20 2018 23:49 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 23:40 [AS]Rattus wrote:On January 20 2018 23:17 Qikz wrote: Also you're ignoring that the people who ran Fish were shady as all hell. Jinjin can confirm. At the end of the day, we know what happens when Blizzard takes over. So i prefer everybody else but Blizz. We get 2 massive twitch events that had over 30,000 viewers and a vastly renewed interest in the game? The player count outside of Korea has gone up considerably since the iCCUP days and although Afreeca are having issues with Blizzard we don't know what those are so we shouldn't judge Blizzard on things we don't understand. Put your pitchforks away and just try and enjoy playing the game.
This is kind of a ridiculous post when you consider the difficulties afreeca had with coming to an agreement with the last asl. It's not some myth that people are just throwing around. We might not know the details of their discussions but what we understand is that blizzard is charging absurd fee's for 3rd parties to host tournaments.
Also, blizzard made some promises prior to remastered that never the saw the day of light. We're left with a starcraft that is buggy, extremely laggy, they practically shut down servers they promised to assist. Starcraft is in such a horrid state atm that its nearly impossible to play. 2v2//3v3 lag 90% of the time, the game shuts out, kicks me out all the time with errors, some accounts im able to customize my profile and in others it simply just doesn't give me the options. The bugs are endless, the lag is extreme. I personally dont think blizzard is in any position to be making such high demands with a game that is barely playable.
The main problem that is causing suspicion is that blizzard doesn't seem to care about getting the game to function correctly. They continue to let us down patch after patch. I mean valkary's still dont shoot when you stack them... They said they fixed that on one of the first patch notes. When they release patch notes 50% of the stuff on their aren't actually fixed. Blizzard is an unreliable company atm which is why people are throwing them under the bus without questions.
I'm not trying to flame you but think you haven't been playing the game or roaming the forums as much as i have. The complaints about the same thing since before "beta" remastered had been released have not even been fixed.
From my point of view, they just simply don't give a crap and were looking for a quick money grab.
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On January 21 2018 03:19 blade55555 wrote: I dislike that Blizzard is not allowing tournaments to run, that is beyond stupid and I wish they would just let the Koreans host tournaments as they please.
I do not think remastered was a cash grab. I guarantee that Remastered barely made Blizzard money compared to all their other products. I feel like Blizzards intentions were good, but they fucked up bad with their tournament requirements and still not including features.
I think Remastered is great and I enjoyed it. The fact that there is still no ranking system is beyond stupid, I figured that would be coming within a month of release. I miss ASL, really want it to come back soon. Hope Blizzard gets off their asses and gets this situation resolved.
Every time I saw Blizzard getting too cozy with the Korean Brood War scene, there were casualties. It is getting to the point where the sight of any article with the mention of Blizzard's involvement with Brood War makes me afraid more than anything else.
I don't care whether SC: Remastered was a cash grab. I do not care how much money SC: Remastered made for Blizzard. I feel like Brood War tournaments such as ATB and ASL became harder to host after Blizzard started to regulate the conditions under which they could be held. I feel like the months of previously unseen lag and technical issues hurt the streaming industry. I feel like the change of conditions for the PC cafes played a role in Brood War being played less in PC cafes of Korea than ever before.
I think SC: Remastered provided excitement and interest for Brood War outside of Korea. There's no denying that. However, it came at the cost of the health of the Korean Brood War scene. I really want that to stop. I hope that situation gets resolved.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
On January 21 2018 03:30 Cheesefome wrote: I'm not trying to flame you but think you haven't been playing the game or roaming the forums as much as i have. The complaints about the same thing since before "beta" remastered had been released have not even been fixed. .
Cheeseofme I respect your opinion, but what the hell is that bit in your post. I've been a member of this forum now for years, I've had over 10,000 posts and I read the forum multiple times daily even from work. I host and cast tournaments every other week and I've casted some of the recent TL Open tournaments with Sayle.
I've also been playing the game since 2008 and over the past year or so I've been playing BW for at least 3 hours a day. I'm not sure what exactly else you need me to do for me to form an opinion.
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On January 21 2018 01:39 Waxangel wrote: I wonder if this is posted on English forums only because Fish can't sell themselves as a faultless, saintly org in Korean communities and get away with it....? This makes me wonder why they were kicked out of that blizzard korea chat.
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United Kingdom12010 Posts
I'd just like to point out that my stance is that not everything has been terrible since remastered. I'm not defending what the bigwigs at Blizzard are doing and nor do I wish for any of this to be happening.
Bringing up my post where I ask people to stop destroying the forum with constant arguing when we were all experiencing what would very likely be the last OSL ever I wouldn't say is me defending Blizzard. I will defend the devs of the game though as they do want to see their remastered baby do well. At the end of the day it's not their decision on the legal side of what Blizzard do and they have no choice on where to send money. I just get sick of people calling the devs shit when Grand from the dev team has even been here to tell us exactly what's going on in terms of development and why things are hard to do.
I just think unless we know the full facts we shouldn't go blaming anyone for anything. Yes you can feel angry, but saying that everyone who works at Blizzard is scum or that Blizzard (including the devs) have ruined the game then I feel you're misguided. The game was destroyed by illegal betting and matchfixing. That's the reason why the OSL died in the first place. You can blame Blizzard and wanting KeSPA to pay for the rights to use their game to make money all you want, but matchfixing killed pro BW.
All I've really said in this thread is that I think that this entire OP is shady as hell, because we have no proof this person is from Fish and also Fish were known to be shady as hell.
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I think the harsh reality is that blizzard doesn't care about sc remastered because they really don't have to. There's no money in it for them, they milked the last little bit out of everyone with remastered, now that the hype is dying off and the last of their money has been made from it, why bother promoting it? If youre truly upset which i know many of you are, your best bet is to not invest any of your money in blizzard from now on. I think so far the remastered has some perks but overall has been sad and heartless business practice
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the game is in a much better state now that during the beta, so they are actually fixing things. I will agree with you that when it was released it wasnt great at all, and I also felt betrayed. 2v2 ladder would be good as well to have more people playing, and lag is still an issue but overall ladder is decent. I had a lot of lag on iccup as well (not on Fish though, that worked great!).
I also dont have a lot of trust in the op, there has to be some truth in it but to what extent I do not know. Fish doesnt exactly have a nice reputation.
I feel bad for Afreeca and I really want them to host a tournament but to me this is quite different from Fish, who was a 3rd party server, however you want to consider things it was obvious it would not last long with SC:R. Just quitting en masse or bitching about blizzard every single time is not gonna help what s left of the community. They need to realise people are still interested in the game and get their shit together but making useful suggestions is better than just losing it after a rumour or another. I think that s what Qikz meant.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that the biggest problem here is that Blizzard has not communicated with us about any of these (and other) allegations. If these various allegations are true, then Blizzard probably should keep its mouth shut. But if there is another side to these stories, then it behooves Blizzard to release some sort of explanatory statement rather than allowing the rumor mill to turn and the negative perception of them to snowball. I'm generally inclined to think it more likely than not that most of the negative statements about Blizzard are true, but I'm also not going to draw any definitive conclusion until I at least hear both sides of the story.
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I remember tweeting to Blizzard that the remaster feels like a final cash-in on BW leading to a decline of the game. It's sad to see it become true. They had so much potential with Starcraft 2, but to me it feels like they wasted that potential and now milk the rest out of the Starcraft franchise, leaving especially the semi-competitive players behind.
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On January 21 2018 05:37 Qikz wrote: I'd just like to point out that my stance is that not everything has been terrible since remastered. I'm not defending what the bigwigs at Blizzard are doing and nor do I wish for any of this to be happening.
Bringing up my post where I ask people to stop destroying the forum with constant arguing when we were all experiencing what would very likely be the last OSL ever I wouldn't say is me defending Blizzard. I will defend the devs of the game though as they do want to see their remastered baby do well. At the end of the day it's not their decision on the legal side of what Blizzard do and they have no choice on where to send money. I just get sick of people calling the devs shit when Grand from the dev team has even been here to tell us exactly what's going on in terms of development and why things are hard to do.
I just think unless we know the full facts we shouldn't go blaming anyone for anything. Yes you can feel angry, but saying that everyone who works at Blizzard is scum or that Blizzard (including the devs) have ruined the game then I feel you're misguided. The game was destroyed by illegal betting and matchfixing. That's the reason why the OSL died in the first place. You can blame Blizzard and wanting KeSPA to pay for the rights to use their game to make money all you want, but matchfixing killed pro BW.
All I've really said in this thread is that I think that this entire OP is shady as hell, because we have no proof this person is from Fish and also Fish were known to be shady as hell. Wasn’t there also a match fixing scandal in SC2? The community is growing atm like it had not done in a long time.
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On January 21 2018 05:26 Qikz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 03:30 Cheesefome wrote: I'm not trying to flame you but think you haven't been playing the game or roaming the forums as much as i have. The complaints about the same thing since before "beta" remastered had been released have not even been fixed. . Cheeseofme I respect your opinion, but what the hell is that bit in your post. I've been a member of this forum now for years, I've had over 10,000 posts and I read the forum multiple times daily even from work. I host and cast tournaments every other week and I've casted some of the recent TL Open tournaments with Sayle. I've also been playing the game since 2008 and over the past year or so I've been playing BW for at least 3 hours a day. I'm not sure what exactly else you need me to do for me to form an opinion.
Well you sure not acting like it. There has been more than enough information passed around to assume blizzard is up to no good. Giving someone the benefit of the doubt to a company like blizzard is hard to do when they are constantly lying about content and information.
No one is blaming the devs. To the contrary people are making it perfectly clear that that devs are not at fault and in many posts showing gratitude. You have all these posts but its like you don't read before you post. People are raging at the company not at the devs and in many post people are making it perfectly clear that the anger is not directed at them.
We gave blizzard the benefit of the doubt when the train reck of a newly remastered was released. We kept saying "it'll get fixed dont worry guys", "they are busy with the game it'll get patched soon" ect ect... we still waiting... and valkaries still bug out when they made a huge announcement about that being fixed a LONG time ago.
Most comments were positive and looking on the bright side of all the mess but it's gone too long. They have pushed the limits and on top of that making it difficult for tournaments to flourish. They gave us a horrible version of new starcraft, fine, but now they making it seem like 90k is what the game's rights are worth. I'm surprised that anyone is even willing to pay them 90k for the right to host starcraft. At starcrafts current state, even if i were filthy rich my demands would be to give me a fully compatible starcraft game and i'll pay the 90k but as of now we have this half ass'd version starcraft that EVEN if i were filthy rich wouldn't pay 30k for the rights.
Honestly I don't even believe this is about whats good for the community or money. I have a feeling there is bad blood between blizz and afreeca. That is my theory. I cannot imagine why blizzard would make it this impossible for 3rd party's to host their game. They only benefit and blizzard atm is in such a good position financially that they could care less. It's at the cost of the fans unfortunately. Again that is only a theory so nobody take that to heart or quote it.
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On January 21 2018 06:09 WGT-Baal wrote: the game is in a much better state now that during the beta, so they are actually fixing things. I will agree with you that when it was released it wasnt great at all, and I also felt betrayed. 2v2 ladder would be good as well to have more people playing, and lag is still an issue but overall ladder is decent. I had a lot of lag on iccup as well (not on Fish though, that worked great!).
I also dont have a lot of trust in the op, there has to be some truth in it but to what extent I do not know. Fish doesnt exactly have a nice reputation.
I feel bad for Afreeca and I really want them to host a tournament but to me this is quite different from Fish, who was a 3rd party server, however you want to consider things it was obvious it would not last long with SC:R. Just quitting en masse or bitching about blizzard every single time is not gonna help what s left of the community. They need to realise people are still interested in the game and get their shit together but making useful suggestions is better than just losing it after a rumour or another. I think that s what Qikz meant.
Well said.
The thing is people have been giving constructive criticism in the forums. Blizzard does "attempt" to fix these things. the problem here is that when they release patch notes half the stuff they say they fixed in patch notes aren't actually fixed. This has happened patch after patch after patch. They should begin by releasing reliable patch notes and maybe a lot of people won't be so hasty about throwing them under the bus when bad news pops up. Atm, blizzard is coming off as unreliable from day 1 of remastered release.
Really hope they find the intention in all this negativity somehow.
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On January 21 2018 07:45 Cheesefome wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 06:09 WGT-Baal wrote: the game is in a much better state now that during the beta, so they are actually fixing things. I will agree with you that when it was released it wasnt great at all, and I also felt betrayed. 2v2 ladder would be good as well to have more people playing, and lag is still an issue but overall ladder is decent. I had a lot of lag on iccup as well (not on Fish though, that worked great!).
I also dont have a lot of trust in the op, there has to be some truth in it but to what extent I do not know. Fish doesnt exactly have a nice reputation.
I feel bad for Afreeca and I really want them to host a tournament but to me this is quite different from Fish, who was a 3rd party server, however you want to consider things it was obvious it would not last long with SC:R. Just quitting en masse or bitching about blizzard every single time is not gonna help what s left of the community. They need to realise people are still interested in the game and get their shit together but making useful suggestions is better than just losing it after a rumour or another. I think that s what Qikz meant. Well said. The thing is people have been giving constructive criticism in the forums. Blizzard does "attempt" to fix these things. the problem here is that when they release patch notes half the stuff they say they fixed in patch notes aren't actually fixed. This has happened patch after patch after patch. They should begin by releasing reliable patch notes and maybe a lot of people won't be so hasty about throwing them under the bus when bad news pops up. Atm, blizzard is coming off as unreliable from day 1 of remastered release. Really hope they find the intention in all this negativity somehow.
I completely agree with you. The patch notes are misleading at best. And at this point I dont consider Blizzard to be reliable but at the same time it s not like we have a choice, since they own the game.
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fish_radio, you talk on behalf of a team of developers, right? You can take the matter in your hands and help finish OpenBW.
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You can't just enjoy a perfect game that was practically destroyed...
At this point, I'd rather have SD Graphics, and iCCup back... smh...
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On January 21 2018 11:06 GGzerG wrote: You can't just enjoy a perfect game that was practically destroyed...
At this point, I'd rather have SD Graphics, and iCCup back... smh... iccup is still up.
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On January 22 2018 00:15 jello_biafra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 11:06 GGzerG wrote: You can't just enjoy a perfect game that was practically destroyed...
At this point, I'd rather have SD Graphics, and iCCup back... smh... iccup is still up. And 1.16.1 (SD graphics) is officially free.
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Literally further proving my point that 1 good quote for SCBW >> Everything shitty they've ever done. This isn't some sort of holy war but damn people sure seem to think it is
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On January 21 2018 07:03 allhenryros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 21 2018 05:37 Qikz wrote: I'd just like to point out that my stance is that not everything has been terrible since remastered. I'm not defending what the bigwigs at Blizzard are doing and nor do I wish for any of this to be happening.
Bringing up my post where I ask people to stop destroying the forum with constant arguing when we were all experiencing what would very likely be the last OSL ever I wouldn't say is me defending Blizzard. I will defend the devs of the game though as they do want to see their remastered baby do well. At the end of the day it's not their decision on the legal side of what Blizzard do and they have no choice on where to send money. I just get sick of people calling the devs shit when Grand from the dev team has even been here to tell us exactly what's going on in terms of development and why things are hard to do.
I just think unless we know the full facts we shouldn't go blaming anyone for anything. Yes you can feel angry, but saying that everyone who works at Blizzard is scum or that Blizzard (including the devs) have ruined the game then I feel you're misguided. The game was destroyed by illegal betting and matchfixing. That's the reason why the OSL died in the first place. You can blame Blizzard and wanting KeSPA to pay for the rights to use their game to make money all you want, but matchfixing killed pro BW.
All I've really said in this thread is that I think that this entire OP is shady as hell, because we have no proof this person is from Fish and also Fish were known to be shady as hell. Wasn’t there also a match fixing scandal in SC2? The community is growing atm like it had not done in a long time. Yes there was a match fixing scandal, yes multiple teams disbanded as an aftereffect, yes multiple sponsors dropped as an aftereffect, just like BW did. BW couldn't keep on going after that and closed 2 years later hoping for a better future in SC2. There is no SC3 to hedge bets on now. Its continue SC2 or end SC here.
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For the past year or more I've been in a state of internal debate about wether or not I want to come back to BW and invest my time in it again. It is, in my opinion, the greatest game ever created and I've enjoyed countless hours of fun playing it.
I recently watched ASL 4 and was very excited to see SC:R released and that tournaments seemed to be doing well. After finishing ASL 4 I was sure I should start playing BW again so I started looking on the forums.
All I've seen is negative feedback towards Blizzard from the users. Now it seems BW is in a similar state to that of SC2 where the user base is constantly unhappy with what Blizzard is doing.
I really hope there always remains a server where everyone in the world can enjoy the game remastered or not. I'm more than happy to play on 1.16.1 for the next twenty years because in my eyes BW was perfect.
In my opinion Fish has always been the #1 place to get the best practice one could hope for and Iccup was home to my community where I could play 2v2, bgh, and communicate with most of the users. If I'm understanding this correctly it sounds like Blizzard is taking these servers away, or creating a situation where these servers are unplayable. To me, that's disgusting.
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All I've seen is negative feedback towards Blizzard from the users. Now it seems BW is in a similar state to that of SC2 where the user base is constantly unhappy with what Blizzard is doing. A lot of it frankly, is just whinyness from a few outspoken people. I mean, not in terms of ASL, but sc:R in general. 2000 mmr or so is sort of rough as a lot of koreans lag for a lot of europeans/some NA, but thats the not the majority experience of players, and I dont lag vs anyone. The match making completely destroys anything iccup could ever offer.
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What the fk is this guy talking about when top Afreeca BJs can seem to churn out great games on a daily basis. Doesn't sound like some "server issues and lack of features" are keeping them from playing great games. I'm enjoying the tons of content from Flash Larva Last Shuttle JD etc etc...
Just sounds like salty tears from a couple of folks who somehow thought their business model would last forever (a model that leeches on someone else's intellectual property, apparently). World works differently.
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"Blizzard Korea is also infamous for censoring and calling out users on the Korean Blizzard forums, sometimes with stickied posts giving personal information of users they don't like." This part can't be true can it? Seems like an easy lawsuit if Blizzard is doxing it's own users on its public forums. I just can't see them ever getting away with that or it not having been in the news.
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Another week, another new opportunity to say fuck you Blizzard. Fuck you Blizzard!
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Some interesting choice of words. I'm curious about a few things:
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: We accepted no donations and did our best to provide the ultimate StarCraft experience.
Why not accept donations if the ad revenue was blocked? What is the reason behind this and is it legal or...? It seems weird if one source of income was blocked not to explain why other avenues aren't used.
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: It is now 2018 and the StarCraft player base is shrinking. StarCraft's big draw before the remaster was how the community powered the game.
1. Do we have numbers that the player base is shrinking? A before & after or something? This is a statement about a number, but no numbers were given here. 2. If the big draw is the community, then I think I would've expected many people to go back to the old ICCUP servers. However, I hear there is no one on them. Matchmaking is important, but wouldn't the quality of the game be more important?
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: There's much more I can add to this list. StarCraft Remastered is starting to feel like a cash grab.
Earlier you mentioned $15 is too cheap to complain about, but then claim here it's a cash grab. Is the $15 profitable given the immense rework they did? Do we know this? Sources of information here?
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: Blizzard Korea is also infamous for censoring and calling out users on the Korean Blizzard forums, sometimes with stickied posts giving personal information of users they don't like.
I think if this is the case, showing screenshots of this type of behavior would definitely get Blizz Corporate involved.
On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: Me, SEBUNS, and other developers hope to receive some sort of acknowledgement from Blizzard. TeamLiquid is the last place we can ask for help.
I think this is a poor place to ask for help, tbh. I know a lot of the Blizzard Engineers have routinely answered in professional interviews that they scour the BNet forums. However, you also mentioned the Korea forums are not working for you. Can you link some of the posts? I'm curious if they completely ignore or what the issue is.
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On January 22 2018 17:37 SchAmToo wrote: 1. Do we have numbers that the player base is shrinking? A before & after or something? This is a statement about a number, but no numbers were given here.
PC cafe numbers from the 2nd week of January 2018 (most recent data available): 2.46%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=33277
PC cafe numbers from 2nd week of October 2017 (around two months after the full release of SC Remastered: 3.03%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=32398
PC cafe numbers from 2nd week of August 2017 (just before the full release of SC Remastered): 3.86%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/news02_view.aspx?seqid=31827
PC cafe numbers from the 2nd week of March 2017 (just before the announcement of SC Remastered): 3.73%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=30240
PC cafe numbers from October 2015 (before any single member of Flash, Jaedong, or Stork retired from professional Starcraft 2): 3.38%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=25828
PC cafe numbers from August 2015 (before Bisu made his AfreecaTV debut): 3.46%
http://www.gametrics.com/news/News02_View.aspx?seqid=25230
PC cafe numbers for Brood War fluctuated around 3% for the better part of a decade.
That number started to elevate in early 2017 to nearly 4%, as all the darlings of Brood War such as Flash, Jaedong, and Stork made their comebacks for their Brood War fans.
Even before the announcement for SC Remastered, you can see how the numbers are closer to 4% than 3%.
The hype for SC Remastered temporarily boosted the numbers even further, but after less than two months of its full release, play time for Brood War started to plummet, continued to decrease with no signs of slowing down.
Now less people are playing Brood War in PC Cafes than ever before. For over two decades, this is the first time in history that I've seen Brood War having PC cafes numbers below 2.5%, and that number has been floating around since late last year.
Playing time for Brood War in PC cafes reached its highest peak in years in 2017 due to numerous factors, and less than six months after the official release of SC Remastered in 15th August 2017, playing time for Brood War in PC cafes is lower than it has ever been in the past two decades.
That's what I was able to gather, anyhow.
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Is PC cafes the best measure though. I understand that Korea has got a different approach than other countries when it comes down to playing from PC Bangs, but I also expect more and more people to play from home?
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On January 22 2018 18:42 kogeT wrote: Is PC cafes the best measure though. I understand that Korea has got a different approach than other countries when it comes down to playing from PC Bangs, but I also expect more and more people to play from home?
Not sure, but it is one metric from which we can judge the popularity of Brood War with fairly decent accuracy over a long time-frame. Actual play time from various severs are harder to gauge since I personally found it extremely difficult to find any numbers for actual play time from those servers across multiple years.
I don't know what else would explain Brood War suffering such a sudden drop in terms of play time within PC cafes that remained extremely stable for over a decade regardless of what else went on, other than the issues created due to SC Remastered. It's not like other older titles like Kart Rider suffered such a staggering drop due to people wanting to play older gaming titles from home. In fact, compared to October 2013, there's more people playing Kart Rider in 2018.
PUBG may be popular, but Brood War didn't drop this low when League of Legends alone had over 40% of the market share, or when League of Legends and Overwatch combined had very similar market share to what PUBG and League of Legends has as of today, or when all of the top three titles (League of Legends, Overwatch, and FIFA Online) had over 10% of the market share. No matter who was at the top, Brood War always floated around 3% for years on end. Until now.
I really don't know why some people think SC Remastered helped the Korean Brood War scene. Korean Brood War was actually at its healthiest in terms of overall player base, streaming numbers, and competitive scene before Blizzard's intervention from almost every available source of information out there.
I don't care about what Blizzard intentions are. However it outright drives me crazy when people drive the narrative that Blizzard's actions should be free from criticism until every we exhaust every single possible alternative explanation imaginable. It truly does not matter whether Blizzard intends to hurt Brood War or not, the fact of the matter is that they are hurting Brood War, and have done a solid job of fucking things up for Brood War in the past also. Blizzard are accountable for their actions, and people who shy away from the reality of the situation by worrying more about Blizzard's image, and at the same time pretend to truly care for Brood War, are quite simply, frauds.
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On January 22 2018 19:15 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 18:42 kogeT wrote: Is PC cafes the best measure though. I understand that Korea has got a different approach than other countries when it comes down to playing from PC Bangs, but I also expect more and more people to play from home? Not sure, but it is one metric from which we can judge the popularity of Brood War with fairly decent accuracy over a long time-frame. Actual play time from various severs are harder to gauge since I personally found it extremely difficult to find any numbers for actual play time from those servers across multiple years. I don't know what else would explain Brood War suffering such a sudden drop in terms of play time within PC cafes that remained extremely stable for over a decade regardless of what else went on, other than the issues created due to SC Remastered. It's not like other older titles like Kart Rider suffered such a staggering drop due to people wanting to play older gaming titles from home. In fact, compared to October 2013, there's more people playing Kart Rider in 2018. PUBG may be popular, but Brood War didn't drop this low when League of Legends alone had over 40% of the market share, or when League of Legends and Overwatch combined had very similar market share to what PUBG and League of Legends has as of today, or when all of the top three titles (League of Legends, Overwatch, and FIFA Online) had over 10% of the market share. No matter who was at the top, Brood War always floated around 3% for years on end. Until now. I really don't know why some people think SC Remastered helped the Korean Brood War scene. Korean Brood War was actually at its healthiest in terms of overall player base, streaming numbers, and competitive scene before Blizzard's intervention from almost every available source of information out there. I don't care about what Blizzard intentions are. However it outright drives me crazy when people drive the narrative that Blizzard's actions should be free from criticism until every we exhaust every single possible alternative explanation imaginable. It truly does not matter whether Blizzard intends to hurt Brood War or not, the fact of the matter is that they are hurting Brood War, and have done a solid job of fucking things up for Brood War in the past also. Blizzard are accountable for their actions, and people who shy away from the reality of the situation by worrying more about Blizzard's image, and at the same time pretend to truly care for Brood War, are quite simply, frauds.
Letmelose laying it down as it is, as always. Damn!
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On January 22 2018 19:15 Letmelose wrote:Show nested quote +On January 22 2018 18:42 kogeT wrote: Is PC cafes the best measure though. I understand that Korea has got a different approach than other countries when it comes down to playing from PC Bangs, but I also expect more and more people to play from home? Not sure, but it is one metric from which we can judge the popularity of Brood War with fairly decent accuracy over a long time-frame. Actual play time from various severs are harder to gauge since I personally found it extremely difficult to find any numbers for actual play time from those servers across multiple years. I don't know what else would explain Brood War suffering such a sudden drop in terms of play time within PC cafes that remained extremely stable for over a decade regardless of what else went on, other than the issues created due to SC Remastered. It's not like other older titles like Kart Rider suffered such a staggering drop due to people wanting to play older gaming titles from home. In fact, compared to October 2013, there's more people playing Kart Rider in 2018. PUBG may be popular, but Brood War didn't drop this low when League of Legends alone had over 40% of the market share, or when League of Legends and Overwatch combined had very similar market share to what PUBG and League of Legends has as of today, or when all of the top three titles (League of Legends, Overwatch, and FIFA Online) had over 10% of the market share. No matter who was at the top, Brood War always floated around 3% for years on end. Until now. I really don't know why some people think SC Remastered helped the Korean Brood War scene. Korean Brood War was actually at its healthiest in terms of overall player base, streaming numbers, and competitive scene before Blizzard's intervention from almost every available source of information out there. I don't care about what Blizzard intentions are. However it outright drives me crazy when people drive the narrative that Blizzard's actions should be free from criticism until every we exhaust every single possible alternative explanation imaginable. It truly does not matter whether Blizzard intends to hurt Brood War or not, the fact of the matter is that they are hurting Brood War, and have done a solid job of fucking things up for Brood War in the past also. Blizzard are accountable for their actions, and people who shy away from the reality of the situation by worrying more about Blizzard's image, and at the same time pretend to truly care for Brood War, are quite simply, frauds. The problem with this measure is that cafes have to pay more since sc3 came out (to crapzzard). Hence most likely costumers have to pay more to play it in cafe, which can lead to lower numbers.
But there is another measure - number of donations for BJs. Before sc3 i used to watch streams a lot and know that for examle Flash gained 10 000+ balloons basically everytime he streamed. I checked a big number of his videos from last 6 months and a drop in donations is huge - now its like ~1500 balloons, hence 7x less.
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On January 21 2018 01:39 Waxangel wrote: I wonder if this is posted on English forums only because Fish can't sell themselves as a faultless, saintly org in Korean communities and get away with it....?
I dont think people should take what fish_radio says with too much seirousness.
criticism against blizzard is fine, but fish_radio is one fishy dude. History of these type of posts and baitings
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Has blizzard given any statement about any of this, or asl or the situation in korea?
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On January 23 2018 03:22 StylishVODs wrote: Has blizzard given any statement about any of this, or asl or the situation in korea?
Nope.
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On January 21 2018 02:19 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 23:49 Qikz wrote:On January 20 2018 23:40 [AS]Rattus wrote:On January 20 2018 23:17 Qikz wrote: Also you're ignoring that the people who ran Fish were shady as all hell. Jinjin can confirm. At the end of the day, we know what happens when Blizzard takes over. So i prefer everybody else but Blizz. We get 2 massive twitch events that had over 30,000 viewers and a vastly renewed interest in the game? The player count outside of Korea has gone up considerably since the iCCUP days and although Afreeca are having issues with Blizzard we don't know what those are so we shouldn't judge Blizzard on things we don't understand. Put your pitchforks away and just try and enjoy playing the game. The foreign base is insignificant and lets be real, those 30k at least in the last tournament were becuase the players were very known casters, or you can see those 30k populating Battle.net? (not at all), if you see the figures in Korea the game is shrinking quite fast and once BW Korea is dead, the real and competitive game is dead too, RM has been the final nail in the coffin for BW, ironic but true. This.
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Didnt blizzard force pc cafes to charge more for sc:R? Isnt it possible some portion of the pc cafe drop off is just misers?
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On January 23 2018 03:43 Dazed. wrote: Didnt blizzard force pc cafes to charge more for sc:R? Isnt it possible some portion of the pc cafe drop off is just misers? Which would change the situation how, exactly?
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I only read the initial post here, but could someone explain me the Blizzard's side of the argument? Like what are their motivation and what are they hoping for?
Apart from that, I believe we got an unfinished product in form of SC:R. Even months after its release its functionality is really unsatisfying. Lack of features such as 2v2 ladder or clan/team tools is a real disgrace from a company that is a major player in online games.
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I wonder how long we have to sit here and point out gamebreaking flaws in remastered. All we get is this australian dude that comes and gives us updates on youtube with how happy they are with everything. Makes me sick
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Put your pitchforks away and just try and enjoy playing the game.
Well, I would if I could find a game without lag, or even find one at all.
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On January 23 2018 05:42 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2018 03:43 Dazed. wrote: Didnt blizzard force pc cafes to charge more for sc:R? Isnt it possible some portion of the pc cafe drop off is just misers? Which would change the situation how, exactly? Ok, to put it into context:
It means PC Cafes who doesn't buy Blizzard's package won't have premium access to Blizzard games. Premium access, in this case, means free access to all of Blizzard's games without actually purchasing the game. SC:R was included on this list (which made some PC Cafe owners angry since they didn't have to for 1.16).
But it really doesn't mean much in this context, since the ratings only count the usage of the game 'StarCraft' within PC Cafes. Even if the venue did not purchase these packages, players can still enjoy StarCraft without buying the game because non-remastered version is free.
Of course, this might mean that users might have to install StarCraft by themselves everytime they visit (most PC Cafes do a system restore after person finishes playing on the PC). If the users are frustrated by this, it may drive them away which MAY attribute to dropped numbers. I really don't see this being the case here though.
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I’m from Korea myself and I feel like the Fish community shouldn’t buy any sympathy for their unjustifiable requests.
First things first, Fish server itself is illegitimate. It is an unofficial open server, in which people can play the game for free. I have not seen any people since the 2000s who actually paid to play BW in Korea. The server could be running only because Blizzard has overlooked it.
After the remastered version was released, it is simply that the Blizzard stops overlooking such conducts of “playing the game for free” by integrating the server into one official server. To my knowledge, it seems that the Fish community asks for re-openning the server. It is like saying that “we don’t want to pay the development costs of the remastered version, but want to pay the game.” No justification should be there to re-open the illegitimate-overlooked server, since Blizzard steped into its own game and decided to remaster it and release it both to earn money and to thank the popularity it has received.
The Fish community must not think they are legitimately and morally justified to ask for financial and technical supports for several years to come. I mean, if Blizzard wants to do, good for you! But if Blizzard doesn’t want to put same level of supports of sc2 or overwatch, there is still no room for complaints.
Anyway, in the first place, the community and the players enjoyed the game for free. Secondly, it is so obvious that sc2 and overwatch are still on active development and, especially overwatch, earn a lot.
The remaster is remaster. It is not re-developing, re-habilitating the scene, and re-turing to the sc:bw from sc2. To me, personally, the Fish community seems to be under the delusion that they are justified to ask for more and that the game is still too popular to receive more supports.
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I have asked this question before but got no response, so I’ll try again:
Can someone just explain to me why Blizzard is charging organizations to host SC:R events, while effectively subsidizing SC2 events? I just want to know their reasoning behind this. It’s not like SC2 is a new game anymore.
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^ oldcamel you start with "fish = illegitimate because unofficial", why? don't you understand the need that has existed for servers others than blizzards which were not providing what the players needed while providing it for their newer games? (stuff that existed also in starcraft originally but was eventually just left to hacks?) I don't really understand your point of view at all tbh, straight blizzard apology, ignore the SC:R issues, what's good for the game?
you seem to be for some reason afraid that people might play a game for free. Why is that a problem? are you concerned in the increasing wealth of activision shareholders, don't you know they're very rich? do you believe that if people don't pay for something, then they do not deserve to enjoy it? who is this hurting in any way?
why would you criticize fish so harshly and build your blizzard defense narrative when fish done stuff for people for free which was great for the game, while blizzard would do stuff that's not good for the game and try to control as much of it as possible for money? your world seems upside down
or I'm missing whatever piece of your history
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On January 23 2018 23:07 Jae Zedong wrote: I have asked this question before but got no response, so I’ll try again:
Can someone just explain to me why Blizzard is charging organizations to host SC:R events, while effectively subsidizing SC2 events? I just want to know their reasoning behind this. It’s not like SC2 is a new game anymore. But whom exactly are you asking this question? Are you hoping that someone competent enough from Blizzard is lurking here and is going to respond? As far as I know Blizzard did not release any official statement why are they doing this, and people who would respond here to your question simply don't have this knowledge.
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On January 22 2018 17:37 SchAmToo wrote:Some interesting choice of words. I'm curious about a few things: Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: We accepted no donations and did our best to provide the ultimate StarCraft experience.
Why not accept donations if the ad revenue was blocked? What is the reason behind this and is it legal or...? It seems weird if one source of income was blocked not to explain why other avenues aren't used. Show nested quote +On January 20 2018 17:53 fish_radio wrote: It is now 2018 and the StarCraft player base is shrinking. StarCraft's big draw before the remaster was how the community powered the game. 1. Do we have numbers that the player base is shrinking? A before & after or something? This is a statement about a number, but no numbers were given here. 2. If the big draw is the community, then I think I would've expected many people to go back to the old ICCUP servers. However, I hear there is no one on them. Matchmaking is important, but wouldn't the quality of the game be more important?
2. Then you heard the wrong thing. I know plenty of people that still play iccup, or again or play both. Also a lot of koreans migrated after fish was shut down.
Given that iccup wasn't the best 3rd party server (admittedly) that's nothing to scoff st. And many stick with SC:R because foreigners tours are still played on it even tho the server is worse.
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On January 24 2018 00:24 Netto. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2018 23:07 Jae Zedong wrote: I have asked this question before but got no response, so I’ll try again:
Can someone just explain to me why Blizzard is charging organizations to host SC:R events, while effectively subsidizing SC2 events? I just want to know their reasoning behind this. It’s not like SC2 is a new game anymore. But whom exactly are you asking this question? Are you hoping that someone competent enough from Blizzard is lurking here and is going to respond? As far as I know Blizzard did not release any official statement why are they doing this, and people who would respond here to your question simply don't have this knowledge.
Because the most ardent Blizzard apologists usually come up with some perverted corporate logic to defend them at every turn, but it seems not even the fanboys are defending this. I just want a plausible explanation. Because this does not seem to make sense on any level.
At this moment it seems Blizzard could not have done more damage to BW since 2010 if they tried. And they definitely tried.
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i see some reddit and sc2 users come to distaste my message. it's unhelpful to this. we believe it's inexcusable.
you can't say love/hate a company, but the method. we want a method change, not a blizzard to die.
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On January 24 2018 01:34 fish_radio wrote: i see some reddit and sc2 users come to distaste my message. it's unhelpful to this. we believe it's inexcusable.
you can't say love/hate a company, but the method. we want a method change, not a blizzard to die.
nice fake engrish miku well done
User was warned for this post
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On January 23 2018 09:40 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2018 05:42 Jealous wrote:On January 23 2018 03:43 Dazed. wrote: Didnt blizzard force pc cafes to charge more for sc:R? Isnt it possible some portion of the pc cafe drop off is just misers? Which would change the situation how, exactly? Ok, to put it into context: It means PC Cafes who doesn't buy Blizzard's package won't have premium access to Blizzard games. Premium access, in this case, means free access to all of Blizzard's games without actually purchasing the game. SC:R was included on this list (which made some PC Cafe owners angry since they didn't have to for 1.16). But it really doesn't mean much in this context, since the ratings only count the usage of the game 'StarCraft' within PC Cafes. Even if the venue did not purchase these packages, players can still enjoy StarCraft without buying the game because non-remastered version is free. Of course, this might mean that users might have to install StarCraft by themselves everytime they visit (most PC Cafes do a system restore after person finishes playing on the PC). If the users are frustrated by this, it may drive them away which MAY attribute to dropped numbers. I really don't see this being the case here though. I meant that Blizzard's policy still hurts the userbase, even if it's only a portion of PC Bang and only a "miser" portion of the userbase, it's still a negative effect - so Dazed's post didn't bring up anything that changes the situation in my view.
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On January 24 2018 01:46 -Debaser- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 01:34 fish_radio wrote: i see some reddit and sc2 users come to distaste my message. it's unhelpful to this. we believe it's inexcusable.
you can't say love/hate a company, but the method. we want a method change, not a blizzard to die. nice fake engrish miku well done
lmao yea. I dont get how this thread isn't closed yet when that masterpiece "revolutionizing PvT" was locked
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On January 23 2018 16:29 -EU-OldCamel wrote: I’m from Korea myself and I feel like the Fish community shouldn’t buy any sympathy for their unjustifiable requests.
First things first, Fish server itself is illegitimate. It is an unofficial open server, in which people can play the game for free. I have not seen any people since the 2000s who actually paid to play BW in Korea. The server could be running only because Blizzard has overlooked it.
After the remastered version was released, it is simply that the Blizzard stops overlooking such conducts of “playing the game for free” by integrating the server into one official server. To my knowledge, it seems that the Fish community asks for re-openning the server. It is like saying that “we don’t want to pay the development costs of the remastered version, but want to pay the game.” No justification should be there to re-open the illegitimate-overlooked server, since Blizzard steped into its own game and decided to remaster it and release it both to earn money and to thank the popularity it has received.
Those illegitimate servers provided functionality that Blizzard failed to. Yes Blizzard was within their rights to shut down free downloads of their game, but imo forcing everyone to switch to "remastered" was the worst way to go about it. Great, everyone is integrated onto one official server now - and they are leaving the game in droves because of lag, reduced functionality, ugly graphics etc.
As I understand it, the whole pro scene of broodwar always had "illegitimate" and shady aspects from a purely legal or business stand point. So I guess all of it should be condemned and tossed out. Because the poor victim Activision/Blizzard is truly suffering from the illegitimate use of the IP that it bought from the old Blizzard.
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OP states hackers are back but I've yet to witness a single confirmed hacking incident. Even if I'm wrong, certainly a huge scaling back in the amount of hackers compared to pre-remasterd. Just wanted to give me 2 cents on that paticular comment.
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[/i]On January 24 2018 01:46 -Debaser- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2018 01:34 fish_radio wrote: i see some reddit and sc2 users come to distaste my message. it's unhelpful to this. we believe it's inexcusable.
you can't say love/hate a company, but the method. we want a method change, not a blizzard to die. nice fake engrish miku well done User was warned for this post
Warned for the post but fish radio faking drama and pretending to have bad English grammar all the sudden gets away
Lmao state of moderation. This should have been closed while ago with dodgy information and fish radios history of dodgy information and drama gathering out of nothing.
There's a reason this wasn't posted in Korean but instead in English. English exclusive? P-lease. English speaking bw community is barely fraction of whole. It doesn't do anything but spark drama here since Korea has majority.
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Has fish_radio ever shown proof that they were a "former Fish administrator?" Why are they allowed to constantly make these threads acting like some official and claiming to speak for the entire Korean BW community? It doesn't even make sense that these complaints about Blizzard Korea would only be posted to TL.
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On January 24 2018 14:29 Sero wrote: Has fish_radio ever shown proof that they were a "former Fish administrator?" Why are they allowed to constantly make these threads acting like some official and claiming to speak for the entire Korean BW community? It doesn't even make sense that these complaints about Blizzard Korea would only be posted to TL.
not entire korean BW community because after few days of hating blizzard for unstable server for SCR, fish server being scummy was the main topic of discussion
theres reason this isnt in korean.
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have a staff DM me. i can't give the names out loud if you want proof.
i can show kakao with the real owner
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This is almost as good and enjoyable to read as the "Blizzard California attacks brain" thread. That thread also proved nothing but to be wrong. Yet BW acolytes here believed it no questions asked. Because jumping on the Blizzard hate train is more fun than actually having to look up for information yourself.
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On January 25 2018 06:18 404AlphaSquad wrote: This is almost as good and enjoyable to read as the "Blizzard California attacks brain" thread. That thread also proved nothing but to be wrong. Yet BW acolytes here believed it no questions asked. Because jumping on the Blizzard hate train is more fun than actually having to look up for information yourself.
Just because one thread is wrong, it doesn't mean that all threads are wrong.
It is no evidence that Blizzard is actively hindering the BW esport scene.
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On January 25 2018 06:35 MrUniverse wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2018 06:18 404AlphaSquad wrote: This is almost as good and enjoyable to read as the "Blizzard California attacks brain" thread. That thread also proved nothing but to be wrong. Yet BW acolytes here believed it no questions asked. Because jumping on the Blizzard hate train is more fun than actually having to look up for information yourself. Just because one thread is wrong, it doesn't mean that all threads are wrong. It is no evidence that Blizzard is actively hindering the BW esport scene. I am not the one advocating for blind following. All I ask is for healthy skepticism from a questionable source. Of course some people are just looking for confirmation bias.
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On January 25 2018 06:18 404AlphaSquad wrote: This is almost as good and enjoyable to read as the "Blizzard California attacks brain" thread. That thread also proved nothing but to be wrong. Yet BW acolytes here believed it no questions asked. Because jumping on the Blizzard hate train is more fun than actually having to look up for information yourself.
foreign community isnt exactly well versed on fish drama on korea
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So, TL Administrators or Moderators are clearly in this thread because people are being warned. Can we please get some sort of confirmation we're actually talking to Fish in any official capacity here? Or can I go make random accounts with 0 fact-checking?
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If Fish_Radio is Mku which I am pretty sure it is, then all of this info is just ridiculous and gossip / blown out of proportion, ASL 5 is coming soon as i've been told by several Korean friends in [WHITE], I am pretty sure they wouldn't lie about it as they have players in it I think.
Miku is not a reputable source and i'm honestly not even sure why people are taking him / her seriously on TL after how I and I'm sure many others have seen how Miku acts / has acted on Discord in the past.
I had no idea Fish_Radio was Miku so I was actually buying into a lot of what was said, but it is actually pretty sad / pathetic when someone switches from perfect english to unbelievably poor broken English on purpose at the drop of a dime just to convince people of what they are saying, which is all that is happening right now.
Miku is an attention whore, a soothsayer or whatever you want to call it, I wouldn't believe anything Fish_Radio says, at all.
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On January 25 2018 08:23 SchAmToo wrote: So, TL Administrators or Moderators are clearly in this thread because people are being warned. Can we please get some sort of confirmation we're actually talking to Fish in any official capacity here? Or can I go make random accounts with 0 fact-checking?
Yah I agree with this. This is an emotional time for a lot of people and there is a lot of information we do not have. I think the worst thing that can happen in these moments is having someone spread false information when people are already heavy on a cocktail of assumptions and anger.
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lmao wintertrollbot=miku=fish_radio plz
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Seeker
Where dat snitch at?36657 Posts
This thread has way more negative posts than positive ones. It's become a shit-flinging fest. Let's just close this thread and preserve what's left of BW's legacy and dignity.
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