On August 21 2018 08:16 ShowTheLights wrote: For me, it is simple as this: He is human. He made a mistake and apologized for it. He didnt murder anyone. He should be forgiven.
Think about your life; you've fucked up PLENTY of times in your life. You're just some random ass nerd sitting on your computer complaining about shit on message boards. He just happened to be in the spotlight when he fucked up.
MOVE ON, and forgive him, just like you moved on from your own mistakes. If you do not approve of him, that's fine. Him streaming affects your life 0%.
So if a person gets convicted for child abuse while working as a babysitter, people should be okay with the person working as one years later? How about Kim Carrier, who took a big shit on Starcraft by using the nickname fans gave him to run an adult karaoke joint? Should he be allowed to cast KSL alongside KCM and Zeus?
Look at people who truly apologized for their crimes, like Fake Yellow. They sincerely apologized (unlike Savior who "was only the broker" and banned anyone who talked about matchfixing), and stayed away from the game. Even Sky has promised that he would stream LoL, not Starcraft, as he understands what he did to the scene.
I don't care if Savior streams Mukbang, LoL, or any other kind of content. But for him to continually benefit from the field he destroyed jobs in is incredibly selfish.
On August 21 2018 13:13 RWLabs wrote: How about Kim Carrier, who took a big shit on Starcraft by using the nickname fans gave him to run an adult karaoke joint? Should he be allowed to cast KSL alongside KCM and Zeus?
what's this about?
alright nevermind, just read about it lol... that is so random
On August 21 2018 01:10 noobcake_ wrote: I was having a nostaglic moment condensed into one sentence. Then look at these lengthy replies trying to pick my one sentance apart . Also, I never said he was still rocking it. How could he be, given his life ban. His play style wasn't really all that vintage, but yeah of course the meta does shift.Go watch his replays from the around 2008ish. The games look fairly similar to JD of today. Only big noticeable difference were that he used more sunks and often burrowed his drones. The JD of today rarely does either of those. Today's muta harass is probably a bit better as well but not by a significant margin. But I wasn't trying to compare players across eras because you can't really but I can judge them within their respective eras, I would give Savior the slight edge over JD. JD is a great player and I pretty much want him to win every game he plays. He's just very solid. But Savior just had this really quirky edge to him that seemed to really stand out within the era he played in. And that quirkiness wasn't at the expense of APM, macro and micro. His APM and macro wasn't incredible but it was pretty good given the quirkiness of his play.
Nostalgia is fine. Delusional thinking is not.
sAviOr became mediocre as a professional far before his involvement within match-fixing. He had a domestic record of 15-28 (34.88%) against the terran race in 2008, and spent more time losing than winning within the ProLeague, and was busy getting knocked out in the earlier rounds of the individual leagues. Either you don't remember the career arc of sAviOr correctly, or you are just looking for the most random things in the depths of total mediocrity, while labelling those things falsely as pure genius.
If you are interested in terrible players doing quirky things while losing, I would suggest LASL for viewing, where the most random shit can and will happen. Random quirkiness isn't in short supply, any shit player can display imagination and creativity should the stakes and level of competition be low enough.
Its well known he was in a slump from sometime in 2008 up to early 2010 when he got busted. But lots of good players have had slumps. Pretty convenient for you to focus on a slump that he had no chance of turning around since he then got his life ban.
In one of his last tournaments in 2009 or 2010 he beat JD. It was one of the only a few times the two faced each other. But by this stage, JD was no slouch. .
And regarding quirkiness, I made it clear that his quirkiness wasn't just random cheese etc. He had a good mix of solid play and quirkiness. That is what stood out for me. He was pulling out this quirky moves against the top programers of the time so not sure why you keep saying he was playing against trash opponents.
You say he was a terrible player. And I say I disagree. That's my opinion and I am entitled to it. Let's agree to disagree
On August 21 2018 01:10 noobcake_ wrote: I was having a nostaglic moment condensed into one sentence. Then look at these lengthy replies trying to pick my one sentance apart . Also, I never said he was still rocking it. How could he be, given his life ban. His play style wasn't really all that vintage, but yeah of course the meta does shift.Go watch his replays from the around 2008ish. The games look fairly similar to JD of today. Only big noticeable difference were that he used more sunks and often burrowed his drones. The JD of today rarely does either of those. Today's muta harass is probably a bit better as well but not by a significant margin. But I wasn't trying to compare players across eras because you can't really but I can judge them within their respective eras, I would give Savior the slight edge over JD. JD is a great player and I pretty much want him to win every game he plays. He's just very solid. But Savior just had this really quirky edge to him that seemed to really stand out within the era he played in. And that quirkiness wasn't at the expense of APM, macro and micro. His APM and macro wasn't incredible but it was pretty good given the quirkiness of his play.
Nostalgia is fine. Delusional thinking is not.
sAviOr became mediocre as a professional far before his involvement within match-fixing. He had a domestic record of 15-28 (34.88%) against the terran race in 2008, and spent more time losing than winning within the ProLeague, and was busy getting knocked out in the earlier rounds of the individual leagues. Either you don't remember the career arc of sAviOr correctly, or you are just looking for the most random things in the depths of total mediocrity, while labelling those things falsely as pure genius.
If you are interested in terrible players doing quirky things while losing, I would suggest LASL for viewing, where the most random shit can and will happen. Random quirkiness isn't in short supply, any shit player can display imagination and creativity should the stakes and level of competition be low enough.
Its well known he was in a slump from sometime in 2008 up to early 2010 when he got busted. But lots of good players have had slumps. Pretty convenient for you to focus on a slump that he had no chance of turning around since he then got his life ban.
In one of his last tournaments in 2009 or 2010 he beat JD. It was one of the only a few times the two faced each other. But by this stage, JD was no slouch. .
And regarding quirkiness, I made it clear that his quirkiness wasn't just random cheese etc. He had a good mix of solid play and quirkiness. That is what stood out for me. He was pulling out this quirky moves against the top programers of the time so not sure why you keep saying he was playing against trash opponents.
You say he was a terrible player. And I say I disagree. That's my opinion and I am entitled to it. Let's agree to disagree
You specifically selected the era as "2008ish" and somehow in your mind it becomes about how I cherry picked the time-frame. If OriOn beating a single zerg-versus-zerg match versus Jaedong in 2009 (the most random factoid to explain someone's overall form, but sure, it is me who cherry-picks, not you) is enough to qualify him as a potential "pure genius" player every time he does something off-beat, you have a different handle on reality than I do.
Everything sAviOr has done since his prime, whether it was getting butt-fucked by firebathero in a montage of never-ending post-game ceremonies, being humiliated with carriers by PJ, a Chinese player who never had a single official victory as a professional, trying to "solve" his long-term slump by getting involved with match-fixing, or exiting the professional scene to play versus lower tier players like Ever)P(Rich on stream, and being humiliated by them, and not even having the skill, nevermind the kind of "pure genius" to shut them up when they bad mouthed him openly for his past deeds has all been part of a colossal downward spiral during which he never showed promise of being the kind of player he once was.
sAviOr has been getting butt-fucked by mechanically superior players for over a decade now.
This statement is true whether you like it or not. Deal with it, and go watch your shitty disgraced, washed-up hero out of pity and tell yourself that his rehashed known moves are "pure genius". However, I personally am entitled to disagree with such delusions when you share your thoughts with us.
From what I heard he was very rude, cocky and arrogant in his prime. But when you’re on top of the world in your profession, you can kind of get away with being an asshole even though you’re going to make some enemy’s in the process. I think people will never forget how selfishly he treated the game. He was the best, had a massive ego, treated others below him poorly and when he got involved with match fixing it sealed his fate. He hurt the integrity of the esport tremendously and costed a lot of people their jobs...
On August 21 2018 01:10 noobcake_ wrote: I was having a nostaglic moment condensed into one sentence. Then look at these lengthy replies trying to pick my one sentance apart . Also, I never said he was still rocking it. How could he be, given his life ban. His play style wasn't really all that vintage, but yeah of course the meta does shift.Go watch his replays from the around 2008ish. The games look fairly similar to JD of today. Only big noticeable difference were that he used more sunks and often burrowed his drones. The JD of today rarely does either of those. Today's muta harass is probably a bit better as well but not by a significant margin. But I wasn't trying to compare players across eras because you can't really but I can judge them within their respective eras, I would give Savior the slight edge over JD. JD is a great player and I pretty much want him to win every game he plays. He's just very solid. But Savior just had this really quirky edge to him that seemed to really stand out within the era he played in. And that quirkiness wasn't at the expense of APM, macro and micro. His APM and macro wasn't incredible but it was pretty good given the quirkiness of his play.
Nostalgia is fine. Delusional thinking is not.
sAviOr became mediocre as a professional far before his involvement within match-fixing. He had a domestic record of 15-28 (34.88%) against the terran race in 2008, and spent more time losing than winning within the ProLeague, and was busy getting knocked out in the earlier rounds of the individual leagues. Either you don't remember the career arc of sAviOr correctly, or you are just looking for the most random things in the depths of total mediocrity, while labelling those things falsely as pure genius.
If you are interested in terrible players doing quirky things while losing, I would suggest LASL for viewing, where the most random shit can and will happen. Random quirkiness isn't in short supply, any shit player can display imagination and creativity should the stakes and level of competition be low enough.
Its well known he was in a slump from sometime in 2008 up to early 2010 when he got busted. But lots of good players have had slumps. Pretty convenient for you to focus on a slump that he had no chance of turning around since he then got his life ban.
In one of his last tournaments in 2009 or 2010 he beat JD. It was one of the only a few times the two faced each other. But by this stage, JD was no slouch. .
And regarding quirkiness, I made it clear that his quirkiness wasn't just random cheese etc. He had a good mix of solid play and quirkiness. That is what stood out for me. He was pulling out this quirky moves against the top programers of the time so not sure why you keep saying he was playing against trash opponents.
You say he was a terrible player. And I say I disagree. That's my opinion and I am entitled to it. Let's agree to disagree
You specifically selected the era as "2008ish" and somehow in your mind it becomes about how I cherry picked the time-frame. If OriOn beating a single zerg-versus-zerg match versus Jaedong in 2009 (the most random factoid to explain someone's overall form, but sure, it is me who cherry-picks, not you) is enough to qualify him as a potential "pure genius" player every time he does something off-beat, you have a different handle on reality than I do.
Everything sAviOr has done since his prime, whether it was getting butt-fucked by firebathero in a montage of never-ending post-game ceremonies, being humiliated with carriers by PJ, a Chinese player who never had a single official victory as a professional, trying to "solve" his long-term slump by getting involved with match-fixing, or exiting the professional scene to play versus lower tier players like Ever)P(Rich on stream, and being humiliated by them, and not even having the skill, nevermind the kind of "pure genius" to shut them up when they bad mouthed him openly for his past deeds has all been part of a colossal downward spiral during which he never showed promise of being the kind of player he once was.
sAviOr has been getting butt-fucked by mechanically superior players for over a decade now.
This statement is true whether you like it or not. Deal with it, and go watch your shitty disgraced, washed-up hero out of pity and tell yourself that his rehashed known moves are "pure genius". However, I personally am entitled to disagree with such delusions when you share your thoughts with us.
Well at least he has the best Final Edit of them all.
I don't see how anyone can still defend or want to watch Savior. Just imagine if, say, Kobe Bryant match-fixed NBA games, contributing to the eventual collapse of all of professional basketball, and then went on to continue to try to make money streaming himself playing basketball against a bunch of amateurs--I would be willing to bet that the backlash amongst fans would be much more severe than any spiteful pithy comments made towards Savior by TL netizens.
While I don't think we need to beat the dead horse of denouncing Ma Jae Yoon, I think any lingering praise of him that is anything more than "Yeah he was good back in the day and he contributed a lot to the development of BW strategy back in '05-'07. Moving on now" is distasteful and innappropriate.
MJY is only second to flash... watching him in his prime was something else. Thanks for posting his youtube channel i'll subscribe.
The kid made a mistake get over it and people here making pedophile comparisons. Kespa giving him a lifetime ban is a joke, the same Kespa who's president was arrested on bribery and embezzlement. Nice to see people here supporting a lifetime ban .... people get released from jail for murder after doing their time.... lol
This statement is true whether you like it or not. Deal with it, and go watch your shitty disgraced, washed-up hero out of pity and tell yourself that his rehashed known moves are "pure genius". However, I personally am entitled to disagree with such delusions when you share your thoughts with us.
I would be so happy if you could shut the fuck up, really.
This statement is true whether you like it or not. Deal with it, and go watch your shitty disgraced, washed-up hero out of pity and tell yourself that his rehashed known moves are "pure genius". However, I personally am entitled to disagree with such delusions when you share your thoughts with us.
I would be so happy if you could shut the fuck up, really.
I would be glad to be put in my place if you could bother to speak sense and address the issue at hand. The last conversation we had wasn't the most constructive or insightful, but I could give it another shot. I'm all ears.
On August 22 2018 11:27 reincremate wrote: I don't see how anyone can still defend or want to watch Savior. Just imagine if, say, Kobe Bryant match-fixed NBA games, contributing to the eventual collapse of all of professional basketball, and then went on to continue to try to make money streaming himself playing basketball against a bunch of amateurs--I would be willing to bet that the backlash amongst fans would be much more severe than any spiteful pithy comments made towards Savior by TL netizens.
While I don't think we need to beat the dead horse of denouncing Ma Jae Yoon, I think any lingering praise of him that is anything more than "Yeah he was good back in the day and he contributed a lot to the development of BW strategy back in '05-'07. Moving on now" is distasteful and innappropriate.
Praising literally one of the absolute best players to ever touch the game is distasteful and inappropriate, but comparing throwing a match in a video game to murder and child abuse isn't?
On August 22 2018 17:02 iFU.pauline wrote: On August 21 2018 19:30 Letmelose wrote:
This statement is true whether you like it or not. Deal with it, and go watch your shitty disgraced, washed-up hero out of pity and tell yourself that his rehashed known moves are "pure genius". However, I personally am entitled to disagree with such delusions when you share your thoughts with us.
I would be so happy if you could shut the fuck up, really.
I would be glad to be put in my place if you could bother to speak sense and address the issue at hand. The last conversation we had wasn't the most constructive or insightful, but I could give it another shot. I'm all ears.
On August 22 2018 17:02 iFU.pauline wrote: On August 21 2018 19:30 Letmelose wrote:
This statement is true whether you like it or not. Deal with it, and go watch your shitty disgraced, washed-up hero out of pity and tell yourself that his rehashed known moves are "pure genius". However, I personally am entitled to disagree with such delusions when you share your thoughts with us.
I would be so happy if you could shut the fuck up, really.
I would be glad to be put in my place if you could bother to speak sense and address the issue at hand. The last conversation we had wasn't the most constructive or insightful, but I could give it another shot. I'm all ears.
firebathero has created a youtube channel of him doing the most random and inexplicable things by purposefully avoiding top level competition and doing plays versus terrible players. It is what he has been doing since his professional days, when he had more fun toying around with sAviOr, rather than going full hardcore for excellence. If doing highlight reel worthy plays versus bad players is what you are after, he is the guy for you.
dunno why savior makes you so blind,there is actually no point in arguing cuz u are basically ignoring every savior did in the BW prime era and u could still see his magic in that post era,and now u are like yes he is doing that vs lesser players,is no sense cuz they are actual games most of them really good games,is not just a shame noob video that he is doing to show us that he can do some excellent moves with the units.no need to tell that savior was trashing shuttle and some other pros when he was taking more serious his streaming and the tournament he was allowed to play in the non pro scene before Sonic decided to ban from SSL aswell after the bad pr.(funny cuz sonic actually encourage him to stream)
i mean. we are in 2018 you are like some old guy telling the same thing over and over,how savior the matchfixer he is so bad he destroyed the scene,if that scene was so weak that didnt survive the matchfixing maybe that scene wasnt destined to survive that long anyway.( in any sense im saying what he did is right,f*ck him,f*ck cheaters,) but stop fooling yourself ,and is also very childish what u are doign denying what the guy has done to the zerg race..the best article on TL is about him and his zvt revolution rofl.there are maybe 40 reasons u can hate savior,but u cant deny the guy was the best when he was into the challenge.
On August 22 2018 20:45 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: dunno why savior makes you so blind,there is actually no point in arguing cuz u are basically ignoring every savior did in the BW prime era and u could still see his magic in that post era,and now u are like yes he is doing that vs lesser players,is no sense cuz they are actual games most of them really good games,is not just a shame noob video that he is doing to show us that he can do some excellent moves with the units.no need to tell that savior was trashing shuttle and some other pros when he was taking more serious his streaming and the tournament he was allowed to play in the non pro scene before Sonic decided to ban from SSL aswell after the bad pr.(funny cuz sonic actually encourage him to stream)
i mean. we are in 2018 you are like some old guy telling the same thing over and over,how savior the matchfixer he is so bad he destroyed the scene,if that scene was so weak that didnt survive the matchfixing maybe that scene wasnt destined to survive that long anyway.( in any sense im saying what he did is right,f*ck him,f*ck cheaters,) but stop fooling yourself ,and is also very childish what u are doign denying what the guy has done to the zerg race..the best article on TL is about him and his zvt revolution rofl.there are maybe 40 reasons u can hate savior,but u cant deny the guy was the best when he was into the challenge.
I get that you like sAviOr, and want to defend him. But you are just rambling about the most random subjects I did not touch. Your criteria for what constitutes a really good game must either be low enough that you find any half decent amateur player fascinating, or you are purposefully lowering the bar to pretend that sAviOr still has that genius about him. If it is sAviOr's trademark approach to the game that you find interesting, his vintage playstyle hasn't disappeared, so you can enjoy that particular aesthetic that he has about him, but don't give me bullshit reasoning about how he is still a total genius or how the games he plays are of a really high quality.
sAviOr is so utterly shit compared to so many of the players available for viewing (and it's been a one way downhill trajectory ever since early 2007), that you butcher the very meaning of the word by calling what he does as genius, just like it is ridiculous to go overboard with the deificiation of an ex-footballer dribbling circles around overweight random farts as if it is pure footballing art of the highest calibre. I truly don't care if you can do elasticos around a random nobody and pretend that is genius just because the aesthetic of it is pleasing to you.
You an go beat your drum about who wrote what about sAviOr, and what your perception of an appropriate response for his past actions would be to somebody who actually gives a shit. Go donate all your money to sAviOr for all I care. Just don't tell me bullshit about him in order to show your support for the dude. You don't convince me with the zeal you have, only factually correct posts with valid points that address the issue at hand would shut me up.
sorry i didnt get you i guess,there is not point arguing how good savior right now is,does he even play 1v1 ? last i heard he was playing 2v2 bet matches or something like that.about genius,i dont think it dissapears,i actually never donated anything to savior ,but to people like eagle movie in_dove and few others,but how is that relevant what i do with my money ? mind what you do with yours
WHAT CAN I TELL YOU, MA BONJWA FOR LIFE . thanks to him jaedong effort soulkey ggplay all of them exist. keep eating your useless anger ^^
On August 22 2018 21:27 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote: sorry i didnt get you i guess,there is not point arguing how good savior right now is,does he even play 1v1 ? last i heard he was playing 2v2 bet matches or something like that.about genius,i dont think it dissapears,i actually never donated anything to savior ,but to people like eagle movie in_dove and few others,but how is that relevant what i do with my money ? mind what you do with yours
WHAT CAN I TELL YOU, MA BONJWA FOR LIFE . thanks to him jaedong effort soulkey ggplay all of them exist. keep eating your useless anger ^^
Leto rapes sAviOr in two-versus-two matches as well. There is no realm within competitive Brood War that sAviOr excels at except making his fanboy's panties wet whatever he does as a human being. As is showcased by the likes of you.
It's up to the streaming service to decide who can stream. They seem to be ok with savior doing it on their site. If people want to donate to him, let them. You know it's been what, 8 years? BW would have lost all it's talent anyway when Blizzard forced the switch. Sure savior played a huge role in taking down professional brood war, but don't fool yourself into believing it'd still be here today if it wasn't for him. As much as I miss Proleague, I am quit happy where BW is right now compared to the Sospa era, and I do believe that there is still some room for growth, even though it seems that with Blizzard involved it's very hard to get new tournament organizers interested.
To be quiet honest, I'm personally more upset about Blizzard's treatment of BW than the matchfixing scandal, so I'd much rather see Blizzard pass the ownership of Starcraft to someone who cares then continue to stalk savior and make sure that he never touches BW again. Nobody forces you to watch his stream, let alone donate or even discuss it.
On August 22 2018 17:02 iFU.pauline wrote: On August 21 2018 19:30 Letmelose wrote:
This statement is true whether you like it or not. Deal with it, and go watch your shitty disgraced, washed-up hero out of pity and tell yourself that his rehashed known moves are "pure genius". However, I personally am entitled to disagree with such delusions when you share your thoughts with us.
I would be so happy if you could shut the fuck up, really.
I would be glad to be put in my place if you could bother to speak sense and address the issue at hand. The last conversation we had wasn't the most constructive or insightful, but I could give it another shot. I'm all ears.