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Netherlands4485 Posts
On April 16 2018 19:52 seom wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know?
Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) I mean they are professional casters, they should have more than just a working knowledge of the basics of the game if you ask me. Its also really cringy when it is obvious that the casters have no idea what is going on in the game or make consistent wrong calls etc Agreed. If your lack of game knowledge consistently makes you give false readings of the game then you aren't the right caster. At most you're merely the best caster at hand.
Casting BW isn't something to overlook. It shows that it's not something you can just do. It takes a lot of investment.
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On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know?
Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) So cynical! For me the main reason is neither of those things. To help me pay attention to the game, either I need to not understand the language, so that I have my full attention taking note of what the builds were, what I think will happen, what I think the game position is like, or I need a cast in a language I do understand to be pulling some of that weight for me. I can't really multitask listening and thinking at the same time.
Ironically, I think it might actually be less important for a caster to be knowledgeable when you yourself don't know much of what is going on, than if you do have good game knowledge and find yourself distracted and missing things. But even if you don't have much knowledge, a good analysis will please you, hearing a few bench marks about what is important to pay attention to, what is actually a big loss and what isn't.
I think one thing you have to keep in mind with BW fans is that we're kind of a unique audience, a lot of us used to watched BW without understanding the commentary for many, many years, and only understood the game on any level because we played it obsessively.
For me, RAPiD every cast sounds like someone bullshitting their way through an English essay in high school, and I find that distracting. What confuses me is that I know people used to have similar complaints about Klazart back in the day, and I loved his commentaries in those days. In fact, I pretty much liked anyone who did an RWA, and I could easily listen to Manifesto7 even though he is the same person who banned someone for doing the computer zealot rush against him. What is the difference? I haven't listened to the old commentaries in so long I can't really say for sure, but I think somehow I didn't find them as distracting, or as empty.
I guess it's not really important to me that a caster have so called useful knowledge. Nor do I care if they go on little tangents and talk about whatever, especially during quiet parts of the game. What I do find distracting is if a caster doesn't really understand the result of a battle, and kind of blows it up as a big deal every time, and his play by play is kind of weird and hackneyed. I think even the mediocre players I used to listen to watched and played enough BW to understand just like I did what was and wasn't that big of a deal. When what I think is a big deal and what the caster thinks is a big deal don't line up, it causes dissonance and distraction. And I think acquiring that knowledge is less about being a great player like Artosis was, and more about just sheer volume of games watched, as though all our minds were little machine learning programs fine tuning our tolerances for what is and isn't ordinary. Again, I think matching that tolerance is more difficult with old fans than it is with newer fans. But I've also seen enough familiar names saying they don't mind RAPiD to know this is only a subset of old fans I happen to be a part of. In some part I think the desire to make the conversation about game knowledge is maybe making too specific a complaint about the overall effect of a caster, that perhaps RAPiD's style just annoys a subset of us because it relies on good game knowledge which perhaps he has for SC2 and which has led him to a successful career. He gets complaints every video he's in, but that's probably a very small minority, though it's hard to feel that way when I am one of the people who will just look for the Korean VOD after watching him commentate one game.
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Rapid is great , he improved soooo much from his 1st bw cast , Rapidcasting <3
Btw Rapid + Sayle would be an epic combo.
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On April 16 2018 14:51 Peeano wrote: For me the ideal caster(s) will make you want to play the game. Teach you new things either strategically or about the players and the life around it. Without a playerbase there is no future. And learning about players makes you understand and respect them more. Given the competitive nature of BW, that in turn helps create a friendlier gaming experience.
Superdanielman and Tasteless was my favorite combination back in the day. SDM gave so much interesting insights about the game and its scene. Tasteless rambled less back then and his jokes were actually funny. Every time I try Tasteless nowadays he just annoys me.
(I'm just stating my opinion, I'm not hating on any casters.) How is declaring that Tasteless just annoys you, an interesting or constructive opinion? We have many opinions, but, as I'm sure you are aware, some are probably best to keep for ourselves.
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I liked the casting. Both showed passion. That matters most.
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artosis and tasteless just do it for me, something about hearing them just reassures me. If i had to pick one casting duo forever it would be them. That said, rapid and noregret would be a fine addition if they just upped their game knowledge a bit.
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Netherlands4485 Posts
On April 17 2018 06:29 tanngard wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2018 14:51 Peeano wrote: For me the ideal caster(s) will make you want to play the game. Teach you new things either strategically or about the players and the life around it. Without a playerbase there is no future. And learning about players makes you understand and respect them more. Given the competitive nature of BW, that in turn helps create a friendlier gaming experience.
Superdanielman and Tasteless was my favorite combination back in the day. SDM gave so much interesting insights about the game and its scene. Tasteless rambled less back then and his jokes were actually funny. Every time I try Tasteless nowadays he just annoys me.
(I'm just stating my opinion, I'm not hating on any casters.) How is declaring that Tasteless just annoys you, an interesting or constructive opinion? We have many opinions, but, as I'm sure you are aware, some are probably best to keep for ourselves. It's not an interesting if you cannot relate. Have you experienced Tasteless and SDM?
Maybe I should have kept the last part to myself or maybe worded it differently.
It's probably more honest to say he isn't meeting my expectations, at all. I want to like him, like I did in the past. But he really doesn't appeal to me in any way anymore. Hence he annoys me. His years of experience casting SC2 (on top of BW) has not made him a better BW caster, but instead has made him worse. His jokes don't appeal to me anymore, his BW knowledge took a massive hit. And it seems like he hardly takes any time to prepare an upcoming cast or refresh his BW knowledge outside casting the actual matches. I expect more professionalism and maturity from him, (the same goes for Artosis). Over the years he did get to a very decent level of Korean which is commendable.
It really baffles me that there are multiple amateur casters in this arguably small community who are able to bring much better commentary than their professional colleagues do. (With fewer resources as well.) As far as I can tell Tastosis have pretty much a monopoly position which is good for them. They earned it, but they also have to keep earning it, right? The overall quality of their casts is just decent at best. It's something I cannot wrap my head around. I just know they can do much better. + Show Spoiler [ASL5] +It's like remembering the godly JvZ and seeing JD go down 2-0. It really just hurts the old fan inside you. I don't even think it's great analogy, but hopefully you get the idea. If you ask me Tastosis are under performing compared to their younger, more inexperienced selves. That is my conclusion every time I try to listen to them since they started casting BW again, even now in ASL5. It's gone from remembering their better casts, to longing for better casts, to disappointment.
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TLADT24917 Posts
While I don't doubt Rapid's passion for the game and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong calls time after time just really hurts the viewing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first group of the Ro16. Rapid was talking about a FD in a TvT (not exactly common, mostly in TvP) and then a quick look at the resource counter showed that Mind was banking money, likely a cc but he was talking about some proxy fac or port or something.
I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the co-caster etc... Going full adrenaline in a cast and constantly making wrong calls or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing Rapid do this in a recent cast was extremely disappointing.
I've always watched Korean casts, but not being able to see games live, Afreeca vods being a pain to load etc... has forced me to watch the english casts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the tastosis casts which could be better.
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Loved ASL. Sad it was a sc:remastered event rather then a Brood War event but nothing can be done about that to drum up player intrest it seems. Glad you two were able to put forth the passion to cast these tournaments in english. You are among the remaining few with the intrest and work ethic to do so! well done.
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I did not read this thread..but it is absolutely insane to me that any of you would consider rapid/noregrets castings of brood war games to be anything close to good.
I wish I had actual content to add, but sadly that is all i can say on this unfortunate matter.
Tasteless and Artosis are actual broodwar players. That's all that really needs to be said. Buttt I'll just say some more shit. If tasteless or artosis annoys you thats fine...i get it not everyone is appealing to everyone. What's a fact though is that tasteless and artosis are true brood war fans deep down who have played this game since I started. Which is 20 years ago. If you can't appreciate that as a fan listening to a cast, then go fuck yourself Ok I apologize, maybe you like listening to people talk really fast and fake knowledge/passion about what they are casting. Hey whatever you like
I've said negative things enough about rapid in other posts (and I'm sure I would've said them about noregret as well) but that is in the past and as I said then; it's not his fault. They need actual brood war players as back ups....
User was warned for this post
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On April 17 2018 11:21 Peeano wrote:Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 06:29 tanngard wrote:On April 16 2018 14:51 Peeano wrote: For me the ideal caster(s) will make you want to play the game. Teach you new things either strategically or about the players and the life around it. Without a playerbase there is no future. And learning about players makes you understand and respect them more. Given the competitive nature of BW, that in turn helps create a friendlier gaming experience.
Superdanielman and Tasteless was my favorite combination back in the day. SDM gave so much interesting insights about the game and its scene. Tasteless rambled less back then and his jokes were actually funny. Every time I try Tasteless nowadays he just annoys me.
(I'm just stating my opinion, I'm not hating on any casters.) How is declaring that Tasteless just annoys you, an interesting or constructive opinion? We have many opinions, but, as I'm sure you are aware, some are probably best to keep for ourselves. It's not an interesting if you cannot relate. Have you experienced Tasteless and SDM? Maybe I should have kept the last part to myself or maybe worded it differently. It's probably more honest to say he isn't meeting my expectations, at all. I want to like him, like I did in the past. But he really doesn't appeal to me in any way anymore. Hence he annoys me. His years of experience casting SC2 (on top of BW) has not made him a better BW caster, but instead has made him worse. His jokes don't appeal to me anymore, his BW knowledge took a massive hit. And it seems like he hardly takes any time to prepare an upcoming cast or refresh his BW knowledge outside casting the actual matches. I expect more professionalism and maturity from him, (the same goes for Artosis). Over the years he did get to a very decent level of Korean which is commendable. It really baffles me that there are multiple amateur casters in this arguably small community who are able to bring much better commentary than their professional colleagues do. (With fewer resources as well.) As far as I can tell Tastosis have pretty much a monopoly position which is good for them. They earned it, but they also have to keep earning it, right? The overall quality of their casts is just decent at best. It's something I cannot wrap my head around. I just know they can do much better. + Show Spoiler [ASL5] +It's like remembering the godly JvZ and seeing JD go down 2-0. It really just hurts the old fan inside you. I don't even think it's great analogy, but hopefully you get the idea. If you ask me Tastosis are under performing compared to their younger, more inexperienced selves. That is my conclusion every time I try to listen to them since they started casting BW again, even now in ASL5. It's gone from remembering their better casts, to longing for better casts, to disappointment. Lots of what you write here i can relate to. I feel that Tasteless might not be as up to date on strategy as we would expect him to be. I hope he will refresh his knowledge to a greater degree. But he doesn't annoy me the slightest bit. He has a great chemistry with Artosis. I like his humour and casting style. He is an originial, i defintively appreciate that, rather than him simply imitating a common idea of what a shoutcaster should be.
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As a total newbie, tastosis and rapid really helped me get into the game. And they DID make me want to play it. I understand that perhaps their casts can be out of date or perhaps not as informative as die hard fans would like. But it was accessible. I was able to slowly learn the game and I have watched other amateur casters since then who have understood the game brilliantly and given so much insight, but, would have been boring or baffling originally.
I feel like such a wonderfully complex and rich game needs an accessible, humorous cast to allow new players to get into the game. After that there's loads of other more complex stuff to find. Basically i see them as the pop easy watching casters and I think they're all awesome
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51132 Posts
On April 17 2018 15:32 TheFoReveRwaR wrote: I've said negative things enough about rapid in other posts (and I'm sure I would've said them about noregret as well) but that is in the past and as I said then; it's not his fault. They need actual brood war players as back ups....
actual bw players who can commentate in english in korea don't exist. simple as that. i was one of them, but i had to move back to australia, and these days there isn't enough job opportunities to cast in korea that i can't go back without living off ramen and living in a shitty box room.
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When the matches are really important, it's a better experience to play them without any commentary. Most commentary sounds like this annoying guy next to you in the theater telling you what's going on in the screen, and making unrelated jokes with his friends.
However, if you want some nice background banter for when you're doing something else, tastosis is so entertaining and familiar.
The observer is way more important. He shows you the story that's going on, for you to see.
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On April 16 2018 23:51 Chef wrote: What I do find distracting is if a caster doesn't really understand the result of a battle, and kind of blows it up as a big deal every time, and his play by play is kind of weird and hackneyed. I think even the mediocre players I used to listen to watched and played enough BW to understand just like I did what was and wasn't that big of a deal. When what I think is a big deal and what the caster thinks is a big deal don't line up, it causes dissonance and distraction.
This is probably the biggest annoyance.
Sometimes casters are not that knowledgeable, don't have a lot of personal history with the game, aren't that skilled, aren't even great casters. Sometimes that's okay.
What's not okay is when the commentary is just disrupting the flow of the viewing experience. Perhaps the biggest strength of Korean casting is the levels of excitement that follows the narrative of each game: it stays appropriate and in tune with what's happening; that's why lots of non speakers are able to accept it, because it adds or at least follows along with what they're seeing.
To be honest, a lot of Korean analysis, or the analysis offered by "veterans", is not that deep or complex or useful if you've played the game enough you already know what just happened, it's just entertaining to have a voice put that feeling into words. What's not entertaining is when what's being said by the commentator is just inherently pulling me away from that experience and the game. I don't want to mute the game sounds, but I don't want to be continually distracted as i'm watching.
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While I don't doubt BigFan's passion for teamliquid and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong posts time after time just really hurts the browsing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first noregret + rapidcasting thread. BigFan was talking about a cast with RAPiD and NoRegreT (not exactly common, mostly in desperate situations) and then a quick look at the sheer difficulty of moving to a foreign country to live and work showed that RAPiD was not banking money, likely a sacrifice on his part to because he fucking loves StarCraft.
I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the casters etc... Going full adrenaline in a post and constantly making wrong posts or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing BigFan do this in a recent post was extremely disappointing.
I've always watched Teamliquid posts, but not being able to see posts live, reddit being a pain to load etc... has forced me to read moderator posts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the actually big fans which could be better.
On April 17 2018 12:30 BigFan wrote: While I don't doubt Rapid's passion for the game and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong calls time after time just really hurts the viewing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first group of the Ro16. Rapid was talking about a FD in a TvT (not exactly common, mostly in TvP) and then a quick look at the resource counter showed that Mind was banking money, likely a cc but he was talking about some proxy fac or port or something.
I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the co-caster etc... Going full adrenaline in a cast and constantly making wrong calls or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing Rapid do this in a recent cast was extremely disappointing.
I've always watched Korean casts, but not being able to see games live, Afreeca vods being a pain to load etc... has forced me to watch the english casts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the tastosis casts which could be better.
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On April 22 2018 02:24 rapidtransit247 wrote:While I don't doubt BigFan's passion for teamliquid and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong posts time after time just really hurts the browsing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first noregret + rapidcasting thread. BigFan was talking about a cast with RAPiD and NoRegreT (not exactly common, mostly in desperate situations) and then a quick look at the sheer difficulty of moving to a foreign country to live and work showed that RAPiD was not banking money, likely a sacrifice on his part to because he fucking loves StarCraft. I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the casters etc... Going full adrenaline in a post and constantly making wrong posts or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing BigFan do this in a recent post was extremely disappointing. I've always watched Teamliquid posts, but not being able to see posts live, reddit being a pain to load etc... has forced me to read moderator posts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the actually big fans which could be better. Show nested quote +On April 17 2018 12:30 BigFan wrote: While I don't doubt Rapid's passion for the game and think his excitement is genuine (or at least seems to be), seeing him make wrong calls time after time just really hurts the viewing experience. An an example (if my memory serves me right) was from the first group of the Ro16. Rapid was talking about a FD in a TvT (not exactly common, mostly in TvP) and then a quick look at the resource counter showed that Mind was banking money, likely a cc but he was talking about some proxy fac or port or something.
I'm honestly not expecting him to be an expert or anything because I'm not one either. However, if you are unsure of how things are proceeding, take a quick breather, gather your thoughts and make an educated guess on what it might be then stop there. If you are definitely unsure, then just state what's going on and try and figure things out with the co-caster etc... Going full adrenaline in a cast and constantly making wrong calls or misinformation is really detrimental to the experience and seeing Rapid do this in a recent cast was extremely disappointing.
I've always watched Korean casts, but not being able to see games live, Afreeca vods being a pain to load etc... has forced me to watch the english casts. On the bright side, I can at least live with the tastosis casts which could be better.
Honestly Rapid, I think Tastosis should be much more under fire considering the difference in BW experience between you and them. Your level of casting is pretty close to theirs so considering your circumstances.
You shouldn't take most of what is posted here as a personal insult. For example, I like every caster currently casting BW. They are fun people, their banter is great etc. Tastosis was also my favourite duo in the beginning of SC2 when I still watched that. However, all that doesn't mean there isn't valid criticism to be made and one is that the lack of knowledge across the board annoys quite a few people because it's distracting. How that can be changed is another story but voicing the criticism should be ok and not taken as a personal insult or am I wrong here?
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This is an extremely disappointing thread. Most of the comments here are hip shot and not well thought out. There are a lot of things that go into being a caster, some of which cannot be accurately critiqued on a forum.
In regards to Tastosis, I think it's silly to expect them to remember everything that they once knew. They both took an enormous amount of time away from BW, they also cast SC2, and have obligations outside the starcraft world that inhibit them from playing the game 24/7. I enjoy them because they have been around a long time and are a similar age to myself which makes it easier to relate.
As for Rapid and NoRegreT, they're fine. Bring em on. Give them more opportunity to cast. I'm %100 excited for fresh faces and voices comming into the scene. What I don't appreciate is having them cast a Ro16 game with Flash in the group. I would prefer to have the hyped groups casted by more knowledgeable people. But there is a catch 22 to this scenario. Rapid and NoRegreT need to get more time practicing casting in order to get better at it (in regards to BW). So I would like to see them cast more so they get better. If I have to grind my teeth through a few casts because they don't know what's up I will survive with the knowing they are passionate and doing their best.
From my perspective all the casters could be more knowledgeable about that game and all that reflects is the infinite complexity that BW challenges all of us with.
Bring on the fresh faces and let's all try to be supportive.
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they are doing ok I guess, good chemistry. They do lack knowledge but it s hard to blame them given the state of BW now it s hard to find people to cast.
I usually prefer the Korean cast though, they have great energy and some interesting things to do, for the few times I actually manage to understand it.
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On April 22 2018 10:45 MuNi wrote: This is an extremely disappointing thread. Most of the comments here are hip shot and not well thought out. There are a lot of things that go into being a caster, some of which cannot be accurately critiqued on a forum.
In regards to Tastosis, I think it's silly to expect them to remember everything that they once knew. They both took an enormous amount of time away from BW, they also cast SC2, and have obligations outside the starcraft world that inhibit them from playing the game 24/7. I enjoy them because they have been around a long time and are a similar age to myself which makes it easier to relate.
As for Rapid and NoRegreT, they're fine. Bring em on. Give them more opportunity to cast. I'm %100 excited for fresh faces and voices comming into the scene. What I don't appreciate is having them cast a Ro16 game with Flash in the group. I would prefer to have the hyped groups casted by more knowledgeable people. But there is a catch 22 to this scenario. Rapid and NoRegreT need to get more time practicing casting in order to get better at it (in regards to BW). So I would like to see them cast more so they get better. If I have to grind my teeth through a few casts because they don't know what's up I will survive with the knowing they are passionate and doing their best.
From my perspective all the casters could be more knowledgeable about that game and all that reflects is the infinite complexity that BW challenges all of us with.
Bring on the fresh faces and let's all try to be supportive. More or less ditto for me.
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know?
Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) I've always felt (well, not always, but for years now) that the SC community in general (BW and SC2) feels like StarCraft games must have either a very specific type of casting that varies from person to person, or they have an unattainably high expectation of all casters save, for example, Tastosis or [insert fan favorite caster here]. There's this whole "if you aren't exactly like my own idea of who/what Tastosis is then you're bad" idea (again, just using Tastosis as an example) and I know where it comes from (they are really darn good at what they do) but I can't get behind that mentality. And, idk, maybe it isn't as much of the community thinking that as it feels to me that it is, but there's certainly a massive amount of members vocalizing it everywhere. "Who are these clowns?", very clearly, aggressively demanding one caster over another, "[insert pretty much anyone here] IS SO ANNOYING", "muting this shit caster", so on and so on.
To me, professionalism is so much more than "has a massive library of knowledge about the game", but that's the definition that RTS and some DOTA/what-have-you viewers have. If you go to a Wednesday Night Fights stream or anything I've seen/heard Tasty Steve and Sajam do it's wildly different: The casters who are energetic, passionate and positive are the ones who are asked to come back and are usually the ones who excel, but it never feels like the FGC must have the things the RTS community demands.
There's a certain expectation that whoever is on the mic should know how to commentate and play the game, but even then the amount of people who are negative about it are the vast minority (from what I've seen). Or, when people say "who are these clowns" it's followed by [insert positive "Wow!" emote here], when people say "muting these trash casters" it's at least followed by [insert sarcastic, funny emote here].
That's a lot of stuff I feel is missing when ZombieGrub does commentary on a big stage, or when NoRegret gets to cast legendary BW players live in Korea, or when a player is asked to cast and they say yes and get on the mic and cast some StarCraft. There's plenty of excitement, but there's plenty of bashing alongside it.
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