I think Rapid as a caster is, and always will be, solid. He admits mistakes, he tries to give a good portion of knowledge that he has. Given Rapid casts a lot of different games, is involved in a ton of communities, he does an amazing job. NoRegret doesn't play this game, but in a way it's kinda nice to see someone ask the incredibly novice questions, for those newer players. I think NoRegret should weigh on that more heavily, acting as more the "Wait, how does this work" kinda caster.
NoRegreT + RAPiDCasting - Page 3
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
I think Rapid as a caster is, and always will be, solid. He admits mistakes, he tries to give a good portion of knowledge that he has. Given Rapid casts a lot of different games, is involved in a ton of communities, he does an amazing job. NoRegret doesn't play this game, but in a way it's kinda nice to see someone ask the incredibly novice questions, for those newer players. I think NoRegret should weigh on that more heavily, acting as more the "Wait, how does this work" kinda caster. | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On April 22 2018 15:03 SchAmToo wrote: Every caster who's not Tasteless or Artosis run into the same problem. We get a shit ton of hate for, a majority of the reason, we're not them. I think Rapid as a caster is, and always will be, solid. He admits mistakes, he tries to give a good portion of knowledge that he has. Given Rapid casts a lot of different games, is involved in a ton of communities, he does an amazing job. NoRegret doesn't play this game, but in a way it's kinda nice to see someone ask the incredibly novice questions, for those newer players. I think NoRegret should weigh on that more heavily, acting as more the "Wait, how does this work" kinda caster. Actually, NoRegret had some moments where he was like "I don't know anything about this game but I think x is a good position because of y" or "I don't know anything about this game but I think x should do y do counter this, no?" and I was like "damn, right on boy". | ||
orvinreyes
577 Posts
On April 16 2018 10:51 Waxangel wrote: I was wondering, do you guys want BW knowledge from casters because it's actually USEFUL to you and they are teaching you things you didn't know? Or is it because you feel like it's something a broadcast 'should' have, because it just FEELS right to you for whatever reason (maybe it gives the broadcast a feeling of legitimacy, professionalism, etc.) The latter. Starcraft is a one-on-one sport akin to tennis and boxing. In both sports they've decided to include commentators who are pros or ex-pros to balance out spectator bias. For example, John McEnroe for tennis and Tim Bradley for boxing. They attempt to remove a lot of the guesswork regular viewers have by talking about strategy and mindset based on professional experience. Of course they can't predict everything but it gives a solid sense of legitimacy versus just having surface-level commentary. | ||
Eskiya23
Netherlands105 Posts
That being said, Rapid did 99% of the talking and gave noregret an easy 1-2 from time to time. Noregret, being a player first caster second, was lacking the fluent conversation or flow between casters. Sure, he spoke his thoughts, but as an other progamer would understand. I guess it comes with experience, I can imagine noregret didnt want to ramble or say something untrue. | ||
TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
I think that's the problem with casters is that most of the current popular casters right now don't have enough game knowledge to make useful comments nor explain the strategic plays to the viewers because they don't understand it themselves, just a bunch of jokes to talk for the sake of talking or simply just stating the obvious over and over They are good entertainers for beginner BW fans watching the VODs. | ||
RAPiDCasting
Korea (South)594 Posts
On April 22 2018 20:37 YPang wrote: Anyone who casts should actually play the game, or have competed at a semi competitive level. Neither rapid nor noregret understands the game at a deep enough level to commentate. Rapid just regurgitates whatever artosis says without the understanding aspect, and noregret obviously has 0 idea. I think that's the problem with casters is that most of the current popular casters right now don't have enough game knowledge to make useful comments nor explain the strategic plays to the viewers because they don't understand it themselves, just a bunch of jokes to talk for the sake of talking or simply just stating the obvious over and over They are good entertainers for beginner BW fans watching the VODs. Tell me more | ||
SCC-Faust
United States3736 Posts
On April 22 2018 20:37 YPang wrote: Anyone who casts should actually play the game, or have competed at a semi competitive level. Neither rapid nor noregret understands the game at a deep enough level to commentate. Rapid just regurgitates whatever artosis says without the understanding aspect, and noregret obviously has 0 idea. I think that's the problem with casters is that most of the current popular casters right now don't have enough game knowledge to make useful comments nor explain the strategic plays to the viewers because they don't understand it themselves, just a bunch of jokes to talk for the sake of talking or simply just stating the obvious over and over They are good entertainers for beginner BW fans watching the VODs. I disagree personally, but I guess it varies from person to person. I value color commentary more than analytical casting. And I think Artosis/Rapid actually have pretty nice synergy. During the earlier ASLs I think some of the commentators tried to be more informational but it was very basic things since the majority of the audience are going to be people who don't have a strong fundamental grasp of how the game works, and the more veteran viewers shit on that casters for not being "thorough". And there was quite a bit of hate towards the casters for using comparisons in SC2 and explaining the differences of the units between two games. Usually I agree with the community on these issues, but I feel pretty strongly that people have been unfair to casters, because it seems like we run in circles about what we want, and when the casters try to change their style, instead of being pleased, we say "not good enough". | ||
GornWood
Germany121 Posts
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SchAmToo
United States1141 Posts
Yeah, this is a weird thing. "have competed at a semi competitive level". Everyone wants this, but guess what, a lot of the most famous casters never did. Shit tons of professional casters never played at a competitive level, Tastosis did, and that's why they're one of the best. I never did, and shame you'll never like my casting! | ||
Abjurer
Sweden200 Posts
My favourite active caster is FlashFTW tho | ||
Miragee
8290 Posts
On April 23 2018 00:36 SchAmToo wrote: Yeah, this is a weird thing. "have competed at a semi competitive level". Everyone wants this, but guess what, a lot of the most famous casters never did. Shit tons of professional casters never played at a competitive level, Tastosis did, and that's why they're one of the best. I never did, and shame you'll never like my casting! The funny thing is that Tasteless and Artosis actually competed at a semi-professional level way back in the day yet everybody "shits" on them now. I criticise them as well. I think my hardest criticism would be that they show no progress. In the beginning people said that they are just back in BW yadayada. Ok. But now they have been back for a year or so, play BW, watch BW all day and getting paid to cast BW professional. Considering they have a background of casting/playing BW at a high level all the aforementioned stuff should get them back really quick but instead they almost make no progress. It almost feels like they are too arrogant to learn all that stuff because they are the knowledgeable veterans. I don't know how many times Artosis uttered the phrase "Uh I once knew but I can't remember but I'm pretty sure it's x" and x is just wrong... If you play and watch the game actively like they claim, how are they in the dark regarding so many strategies, counters, state of the game etc.? On April 23 2018 01:27 Abjurer wrote: I really like Rapid as a caster, he's witty and is a good entertainer. Sometimes he takes tangents too far and his game knowledge could use some polishing but he is a great addition to the BW scene! My favourite active caster is FlashFTW tho From the active casters, my favourite is FlashFTW as well. Although he didn't actually play at a high level you could see his progress in knowledge over time. | ||
Qikz
United Kingdom12010 Posts
I missed the NoRegret cast, but Rapid is awesome and I hope y'all don't treat him badly, because we don't deserve someone who cares as much as he does! <3 | ||
YPang
United States4024 Posts
On April 23 2018 00:36 SchAmToo wrote: Yeah, this is a weird thing. "have competed at a semi competitive level". Everyone wants this, but guess what, a lot of the most famous casters never did. Shit tons of professional casters never played at a competitive level, Tastosis did, and that's why they're one of the best. I never did, and shame you'll never like my casting! I meant currently play the game OR competed at a semi competitive level. Artosis still plays and have competed at a pretty high level, tastless probably doesnt play much anymore but has competed before. If you don't currently play the game nor have in the past, you can possibly get your game knowledge up by watching a ton of korean streams/FPVODs. Why is game experience so valued? It's because if you understand what's happening strategically at each stage of the game, early, mid, late, and how the previous can affect the other, you can be genuinely excited when something small happens and can inform the viewers. If you don't understand, then you just act excited during fights and explosions. When I watch artosis/tasteless'/korean casts, they are genuinely excited about the game, I can't feel that with rapid or noregret, which makes it sound like "a High schooler trying to BS an english paper". In addition, If you have a deep understanding of the game, you can change your commentary style from jokes and such to explaining to the viewers about the complexity of the match. Otherwise you're stuck with 1 style. Here's an example: if an scv dies a few seconds after scouting zerg's extractor. It can be huge because it takes ~20 seconds to mine 100 gas to get zergling speed or lair, so terrans should start looking at the timer and add 20 seconds. By that time, you should see a lair, if not it's probably speed. Therefore, the terran missed that window of knowing what the zerg upgraded first and the game can end in the next 2-3mins from a zergling bust. One of my favorite casters was super daniel man, the eSTRO coach that spoke english. He gave such great insights into every game, and the mindset of a BO3 or BO5 MU, and how to play when you're ahead or how to play when you're behind. But putting yourself out there to the public as a caster is hard, you will get criticisms, and you can't make everyone happy, and I can't do any better of a job. There isn't a guideline for how to measure commentating abilities objectively. I personally don't like it when casters go too far off on a tangent because there is a lot to explain, but it seems like there is a good enough crowd who do. | ||
ColdLava
Canada1673 Posts
On April 22 2018 15:03 SchAmToo wrote: Every caster who's not Tasteless or Artosis run into the same problem. We get a shit ton of hate for, a majority of the reason, we're not them. I think Rapid as a caster is, and always will be, solid. He admits mistakes, he tries to give a good portion of knowledge that he has. Given Rapid casts a lot of different games, is involved in a ton of communities, he does an amazing job. NoRegret doesn't play this game, but in a way it's kinda nice to see someone ask the incredibly novice questions, for those newer players. I think NoRegret should weigh on that more heavily, acting as more the "Wait, how does this work" kinda caster. I don't believe this sentiment to be true. In fact, I have a hard time listening to Tasteless commentate SC2 for the same reason having a hard time listening to Rapid cast BW - it doesn't seem like they've played the game. That being said, I have a hard time seeing this as a thing that gets them paid much, and obviously there is a shortage of commentators around, at least there is someone doing it. A good commentator can commentate the game, while also analyzing the game. It's difficult because you have two processes going on at once. Day[9] was incredible at both giving a play by play of what is happening, AND giving very good insight as to what the player is trying to do, what he's anticipating, etc. The benefit of doing this is that the commentator doesn't need to say that the same is exciting, he just says why it's exciting and the viewer picks up on it. Edit: I guess I just said what YPang said in a different way, whose post has a really good way of putting it. | ||
Incomplete..ReV
Norway598 Posts
Personally, I find those factors to be the most important, and then high level game knowledge coming down a bit on the list. Yes, it's important to convey what's going on and to give some extra insights on that. And quite frankly I think it's clear that Rapid, Artosis and Tasteless all play the game and do their research - talking about recent results in various tournaments, on ladder, the general history of players and all that. Some calls are wrong and sometimes there's a lot of wrong calls. But that's something that can be improved upon. Having it in you to leave everyone behind and live in South-Korea is not something so easily worked on. Nor having the passion to not only doing all that work on a low income (based on various comments during casts, please correct me if I'm wrong here, Rapid), but also continously getting flak from the community. Feedback is fine, but some of the criticism to various casters seems completely baseless. The accused lack of updated information on Tastosis, for instance, seems baffling to me having followed them through all ASLs. And even if it's not perfect, it's still plenty high enough level. As I feel Rapid is getting the most flak, I'd have to ask - who else? Who else amongst casters have it in them to live in South-Korea? Learn Korean, make new circles of friends, maybe have to put lovelife on hold for who knows many years, take shit from armchair professional, learn enough about SC2 as well to cast it and all that? Yes, give feedback. But for heaven's sake, try to put yourself in their shoes! We have people actually going out there, trying to build our community. There's a time to give feedback, and there's a time to think that what needs to be said has been said, and then we should wait. Be patient. I do want it to be perfectly clear that I am not claiming that none of the feedback is called for. Nor do I want to say that everyone in this topic just just giving flak for no good reason. But I think it's extra important that we remind ourselves how lucky we are to have people doing the tremendous job they're doing, and that no such work is without fault. Look at the bigger picture. There's more to it than the couple of hours we see on the screen - it's their life. | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
Edit: the poster above is correct. | ||
tanngard
Norway1321 Posts
On April 23 2018 21:40 Incomplete..ReV wrote: I feel like a lot of people have unrealistic expectations of casters, and of the situation overall. It's not like it's the biggest community, and as such we have a rather small group of people to choose from to do this specific job. We also have to take into consideration that we also need someone willing to travel all the way to South-Korea and live there, seemingly on not exactly the most luxurious payroll. In addition to that, we also need consistency and enthusiasm over the game. Personally, I find those factors to be the most important, and then high level game knowledge coming down a bit on the list. Yes, it's important to convey what's going on and to give some extra insights on that. And quite frankly I think it's clear that Rapid, Artosis and Tasteless all play the game and do their research - talking about recent results in various tournaments, on ladder, the general history of players and all that. Some calls are wrong and sometimes there's a lot of wrong calls. But that's something that can be improved upon. Having it in you to leave everyone behind and live in South-Korea is not something so easily worked on. Nor having the passion to not only doing all that work on a low income (based on various comments during casts, please correct me if I'm wrong here, Rapid), but also continously getting flak from the community. Feedback is fine, but some of the criticism to various casters seems completely baseless. The accused lack of updated information on Tastosis, for instance, seems baffling to me having followed them through all ASLs. And even if it's not perfect, it's still plenty high enough level. As I feel Rapid is getting the most flak, I'd have to ask - who else? Who else amongst casters have it in them to live in South-Korea? Learn Korean, make new circles of friends, maybe have to put lovelife on hold for who knows many years, take shit from armchair professional, learn enough about SC2 as well to cast it and all that? Yes, give feedback. But for heaven's sake, try to put yourself in their shoes! We have people actually going out there, trying to build our community. There's a time to give feedback, and there's a time to think that what needs to be said has been said, and then we should wait. Be patient. I do want it to be perfectly clear that I am not claiming that none of the feedback is called for. Nor do I want to say that everyone in this topic just just giving flak for no good reason. But I think it's extra important that we remind ourselves how lucky we are to have people doing the tremendous job they're doing, and that no such work is without fault. Look at the bigger picture. There's more to it than the couple of hours we see on the screen - it's their life. Thank you for your balanced post. Too often people forget that commentators who puts their name, face and personality out there, deserves respect for this very fact alone. Meanwhile they criticize them behind the comfort of their anonymous IDs - worth to think about? I'm not against criticism either, but it's worth to spend some time putting yourself in the shoes of who you are forwarding that criticism towards. The BW community, as a whole, is also a relatively small one, for the most part existing online, and hence our words often reach out to the kind of public figures we are discussing here. So only talking negative about Tastosis let's say, and then complaining about why they would perhaps not care more about us, the grassroots, is quite ironic eh? | ||
Alpha-NP-
United States1242 Posts
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art_of_turtle
United States1153 Posts
let's not forget that they double down as translators for interviews, which IMO is one of my favorite part of the english cast. Hearing the players thoughts, and usual grattitude of the fans makes watching brood war all the more worth it. (and also trying to predict their feelings and get a better liquibet in) | ||
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