On May 14 2018 03:18 danielias wrote: Best Zerg of all time: sAvior Best Current Zerg:Hero/Soulkey
I've watched some sAvior games. And I've watched alot of Jaedong games. What I observe is how "developed" the zerg meta is at the time of Jaedong. And it shows in his macro and micro. That's what I think of when I watch old games of Savior
One thing savior did that was incredible, in zvt was his ability to pincer/run a terran ragged with threats of flanks, etc. I loved that dynamic.
All these players had their legacies and following created due to their excellence within the competitive realm. Without respect and appreciation for the competitive platforms these players excelled under, that would have never happened.
herO was never a top class zerg player during his professional years, he admitted it as such. However, he created a legacy for himself after the birth of the streaming era. In the two Sonic StarLeagues that had Bisu (the first modern all-time legend to begin streaming) participating in it, herO reached the finals both times, losing one finals narrowly by a score of 2-3, and winning the other by a score of 3-0.
herO also was by far the best performing zerg during the five seasons of AfreecaTV StarLeague we had thus far, and has reached the bracket stages four times. He is also the only zerg player to manage a top four placement more than once.
herO's credentials speak for themselves. By ignoring what goes on in the AfreecaTV StarLeague, and mentioning names like sAviOr or Jaedong, people are refusing to acknowledge the only reputable competitive platform we have left in the Brood War scene. Why do people even pretend to want the return of competitive Brood War? You are not even appreciating what little that is left of the competitive realm as of now, and would rather masturbate to old VODs of washed up players like sAviOr, than giving credit where it is due.
I know the circumstances surrounding competitive Brood War has changed drastically, and the sheer competitive intensity that was found during the professional years will never be replicated, but I'm astonished at the total lack of appreciation of what AfreecaTV StarLeague is trying to replicate somewhat.
Nobody here is trying to compare what herO has done now to what was accomplished years ago when the intensity of the competition (measured by metrics such as the influx of new generations of talent) was more fierce, but come on, at least acknowledge herO for what he has done with the given situation. Otherwise the entire point of hosting competitive platforms becomes moot. Why does herO get berated for taking competition more seriously (he is the hardest working player by far in terms of total number of online sponsored matches played) than others? Isn't that what we all hope for? Instead of streamers dicking around with UMS, other gaming titles, and having casual fun with female streamers?
The more we refuse to acknowledge herO for his legacy that he created within the streaming era, the more we decrease the value of Brood War competitions of today. What is even the point of practicing hard for tournaments if nobody acknowledges it, and more important things are like coasting off the legacy you created during your professional years, or being entertaining enough to entice the streaming audience becomes the main focus for streamers?
What the audience demands affects the market. If you start to treat competition as some sort of a stage for your player to shine in based on his popularity rather than merit, and shame less popular players for "ruining" the experience by taking away certain match-ups you were looking forward to, tournament organizers will go more and more along the path of WWE rather than running a legitimate competition.
This discussion thread has more things in common with discussion threads for popularity based shows like American Idol, than what one would expect from a thread trying to discuss the best zerg player of today.
I'm sure some people are trolling while others are still living in the past. Jaedong is no where near the top anymore unfortunately and Savior as mentioned is washed up. He had his time at least and so did Jaedong so they have large legacies.
As for hero, it's amazing how far he's come since the start of the streaming era. Those finals with Bisu and high finishes show that he's one of the best, if not the best zerg atm. IMO, ahead of SK and Larva who are 2 contenders for the title.
Late 2014-Current: Hero hands down is the best performing zerg. Had Zero stayed out of the army it's possible he'd be battling for a top spot based on his results prior to the Flash era. Post Kespa - Mid 2014: Killer easily
Right now it's Hero and Soulkey, 2017 Effort/Larva/Soulkey were very close. Overall in post-Kespa era I would go for Hero, really consistent and probably had the highest peak around SSL11.
On May 14 2018 11:35 ortseam wrote: Right now it's Hero and Soulkey, 2017 Effort/Larva/Soulkey were very close. Overall in post-Kespa era I would go for Hero, really consistent and probably had the highest peak around SSL11.
I think he has a higher peak now though he crushed Bisu one-sidedly in SSL11 so hard to tell.
Hero is the best zerg right now IMO. We all love Jaedong, but lets be real, he's way past his prime. His name shouldn't come up in this thread. #2 to me is probably Effort.
On May 14 2018 00:58 Letmelose wrote: We already know who has the best results in tournaments. It is hero. He also happens to have the highest ELO rating out of any zergs in online sponsored matches (although it changes quite often) as of today.
Who performed the best online during the past year (May 2017) versus the very top end players?
Who performed the best versus Bisu (those who played more than 30 online matches against him during the past year), the undisputed king of PvZ?
1. EffOrt: 54.3% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. Jaedong: 44.1% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. Larva: 43.1% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. herO: 40.0% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 5. Soulkey: 38.2% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017
Who performed the best versus Flash (those who played more than 30 online matches against him during the past year), the undisputed king of the current Brood War scene?
1. Soulkey: 34.8% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. EffOrt: 31.9% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. herO: 28.9% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. Larva: 26.8% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 5. Jaedong: 17.6% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017
Who performed the best versus Jaedong (those who played more than 20 online matches against him during the past year), who still is probably the best mirror match-up player?
1. EffOrt: 47.7% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. herO: 44.7% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. Larva: 42.9% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. Soulkey: 32.4% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017
I don't know why people extrapolate Soulkey's tremendous zerg-versus-terran abilities as if it was representative of his overall strengths as a player. Soulkey has been a zerg-versus-terran specialists since his professional years, and is a sheer natural at the match-up. However, he is not a grinder like herO or Larva, and I suspect will remain relatively unchanged in the future also.
EffOrt, before his recent slump in recent months, was probably the best performing zerg player in online sponsored matches, but could never translate that into a decent ASL performance.
To be quite frank, there is no satisfying answer. The throne for the title of the best zerg on the planet has been pretty much vacant ever since Jaedong started to suffer from injuries towards the very end of his professional career. Sure you can argue for some of the more prominent names, but I don't think any one zerg player is head and shoulders above the rest like Jaedong once was.
Thanks for the extremely informative post. Where do you find those kind of statistics?
On May 14 2018 00:58 Letmelose wrote: We already know who has the best results in tournaments. It is hero. He also happens to have the highest ELO rating out of any zergs in online sponsored matches (although it changes quite often) as of today.
Who performed the best online during the past year (May 2017) versus the very top end players?
Who performed the best versus Bisu (those who played more than 30 online matches against him during the past year), the undisputed king of PvZ?
1. EffOrt: 54.3% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. Jaedong: 44.1% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. Larva: 43.1% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. herO: 40.0% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017 5. Soulkey: 38.2% win rate against Bisu in online sponsored matches since May 2017
Who performed the best versus Flash (those who played more than 30 online matches against him during the past year), the undisputed king of the current Brood War scene?
1. Soulkey: 34.8% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. EffOrt: 31.9% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. herO: 28.9% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. Larva: 26.8% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017 5. Jaedong: 17.6% win rate against Flash in online sponsored matches since May 2017
Who performed the best versus Jaedong (those who played more than 20 online matches against him during the past year), who still is probably the best mirror match-up player?
1. EffOrt: 47.7% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 2. herO: 44.7% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 3. Larva: 42.9% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017 4. Soulkey: 32.4% win rate against Jaedong in online sponsored matches since May 2017
I don't know why people extrapolate Soulkey's tremendous zerg-versus-terran abilities as if it was representative of his overall strengths as a player. Soulkey has been a zerg-versus-terran specialists since his professional years, and is a sheer natural at the match-up. However, he is not a grinder like herO or Larva, and I suspect will remain relatively unchanged in the future also.
EffOrt, before his recent slump in recent months, was probably the best performing zerg player in online sponsored matches, but could never translate that into a decent ASL performance.
To be quite frank, there is no satisfying answer. The throne for the title of the best zerg on the planet has been pretty much vacant ever since Jaedong started to suffer from injuries towards the very end of his professional career. Sure you can argue for some of the more prominent names, but I don't think any one zerg player is head and shoulders above the rest like Jaedong once was.
Thanks for the extremely informative post. Where do you find those kind of statistics?
The numbers are from a Korean site run by a guy who does statistical analysis of every recorded online sponsored match played since May 2017. If you can read Korean, you can use various cut-off points to see who performed the best versus Flash (or any other player of your liking), say May 2017 to December 2017, for example.
As an example, from May 2017 to December 2017, EffOrt had the highest win rate versus Flash out of any zerg players, but he lost so many games to Flash in January 2018, that his May 2017 to January 2018 head-to-head record against Flash dropped by nearly 10% in terms of overall win rate. He struggled heavily versus the in-vogue 1-1-1 strategy, and basically got tilted to oblivion, and seems to prefer playing UMS games instead of trying to overcome this new meta-game trend.
If you only consider online sponsored games from 2018 onwards, Soulkey and herO have the highest win rates versus Flash. Players such as EffOrt and Larva may have had superior success against more orthodox terran strategies, but herO has been one of the few zerg players to actually try and come up with an answer versus the 1-1-1 strategy instead of giving up, or blaming racial imbalance.
herO may not be the most talented, or gifted zergs around, but he has been in my eyes a model professional, and set the standard for how to approach competitive Brood War in the streaming era. No player comes even close to herO in terms of his passion and discipline towards the game itself. His attitude and integrity as a competitor cannot be questioned. He has humility, respect for his opponents, as well as being one of the purest competitors in this current landscape of Brood War. Such dedication towards competition and excellence, especially if backed up by actual results, should be acknowledged, and I posted online statistics that show that herO has been consistently top notch within the online realm also.
herO may not be head and shoulders above everybody else, but pretending that he is clearly a level below anyone from a holistic perspective is just wrong. herO used to be a thoroughly mediocre zerg-versus-protoss one-trick pony during his professional years, but through hard work and dedication, has managed to evolve into one of the most well rounded zerg players on the planet. When people go the extra mile to mock such dedication towards excellence in an era where the temptation to entertain is greater, it just triggers the hell out of me.
Time to be a negative nancy and say stats don't really matter because they can't predict the future. Soulkey is overhyped. I don't know why people keep bringing him up. sAviOr is irrelevant to this conversation because he hasn't been good in ages.
The truth is there is no "best zerg" right now. There are only "top zergs". Now, I could put Soulkey on a "top zerg" list. But the very best? C'mon. You know Effort, Jaedong, Hero, and Larva are going to be favorites to win against almost anyone, but to be honest, the playing field is pretty even right now.
in 2017 it was effort for sure,he won the SSL,he also won some offline showmatch vs flash and each time the guy played the game u could see huge inspiration coming from his play,innovative zvp strats,crazy zvt play etc,in terms of ASL he didnt make any results,but he looked incredible well in the first ASL,almost making a comeback vs shuttle after a failed 5pool.but right now u can see he doesnt care anymore,he spend most of his time playing team games,so i doubt we will see that scary effort anytime soon. i agree with nina that is very hard to pick a zerg player right now annd say this guy is the best,in terms of recents ASL,obviously hero is one step above but nothing espectacular,it could be he was the one that adapted the most to the new maps.
It's been difficult to get hyped about Zergs for a while in BW (which sucks because that's my favorite race). Per that post with matchup statistics, when the best zerg winrate vs. Flash is 34.8% you really watch tournaments knowing they will lose, and being pleasantly surprised when they happen to win.
As far as who's most likely to do that, I'd say Hero at the moment.
Thank you letmelose for restating your point. The tournaments decide who is best. There is no better metric. The tournaments are what the players practice for. Outside the tournaments, winrates are just statistics.
On May 14 2018 03:27 iFU.pauline wrote: Effort of course. this guy has the sickest z v t and z v p ever recorded. Only Jaedong equals him when it comes to zvz. Would be an insult to even compare him to lower zergs like hero(wtf?) or larva lol.
I won't take in account bw new era with ASL and other tourney coze obviously this guy isn't putting the same "effort" (kill me) as he used to do when he was progamer. He clearly surpassed Jaedong at the time he powned Flash in OSL final and there is no one that came even close to him since then.
What did EffOrt actually do outside of that one tournament to actually merit those kind of statements?
By the skill he displays, plain and simple. I bet most of players if given the choice would put Effort as the last zerg you want to play. Effort beats the crap out of anyone fair and square, and you don't see that type of strength in HerO or Larva.
This isn't worth any discussion, Hero obviously. Effort performance is very good except he lose to Shuttle. What? Lose to whom? Shuttle. Then what's his previous ASL result? That's it. Lavra is very good except he surrendered to Mini without even putting up any fight. What? You believe that's the best zerg we have? Jaedong??? No please, he is over.
On May 14 2018 03:27 iFU.pauline wrote: Effort of course. this guy has the sickest z v t and z v p ever recorded. Only Jaedong equals him when it comes to zvz. Would be an insult to even compare him to lower zergs like hero(wtf?) or larva lol.
I won't take in account bw new era with ASL and other tourney coze obviously this guy isn't putting the same "effort" (kill me) as he used to do when he was progamer. He clearly surpassed Jaedong at the time he powned Flash in OSL final and there is no one that came even close to him since then.
What did EffOrt actually do outside of that one tournament to actually merit those kind of statements?
By the skill he displays, plain and simple. I bet most of players if given the choice would put Effort as the last zerg you want to play. Effort beats the crap out of anyone fair and square, and you don't see that type of strength in HerO or Larva.
I didn't realize we were treating Brood War as a performance art. If you were to award points for technical ability and style, I probably would agree that EffOrt's victories when he is on form are masterpieces. His good games are stimulating and mesmerizing to watch at the same time, although they don't nearly happen as frequently as you pretend.
However, if you throw around vague terminologies like "strength" and "skills" instead of actually looking into competitive results, and completely ignoring competitive results until it matches your expectations for your personal hierarchy of player potential and ability, you might as well imagine how things would play out in your head instead of observing reality at that point. Why bother even watching if you are only willing to input information that confirms your preconceived notions of reality?
That is just delusional behaviour, and even if it is somewhat rooted on information, it does not do anybody any good. Player ability and player performance does not always correlate accurately, and it is wrong to presume that the player with the most success is the most skilled, or most talented. However, with that being said, ignoring results negates the entire purpose of competition. The end objective of any competition is to win.
Once you start to prioritize your personal subjective opinion over clear end objectives that can be measured, there is no discussion to be had. You can basically rationalize anything to suit your own narrative at that point.
Unless every one of EffOrt's victories that are impressive to the eye count as ten regular victories achieved by herO, I don't see a logical conclusion where EffOrt clearly outclasses herO to the point where it is an insult to compare and contrast the two.
You like EffOrt more. I already got that. I was asking if there was any merit to your statements. I'm still waiting for the answer. If players were judged by how impressed people were by careful selection their most memorable games, you could have a universe where Bisu ranks above Flash. His MSL victory over sAviOr alone could count for like three championship titles by the raucous it caused.
Competition is not an entirely accurate representation of skill (plus people have different definitions of what constitutes as skill). The plethora of practice bonjwas we had over the years such as Canata, and Rain when they dominated fellow SK Telecom T1 players during practice, yet achieving nothing of note within the professional realm is indicative of that. However, once you start to completely disregard competitive results in favour of your own personal views on the matter, there is literally nothing that can disprove your own delusional thinking, since the only things that matter are your own subjective opinions on the subject.