So, the sentencing occurred today in Korea (the 22nd). Basically, they have a week to appeal the sentences. Out of the people who got sentenced, those of interest are
Progamer Justin - 18 month sentence, 3 years suspended sentence, 3 million won fine, 120 hours of community service, 40 hours of gambling treatment program. Progamer sAviOr - 1 year sentence, 2 year suspended sentence, 120 hours of community service. Ex Progamer By.1st - 6 month sentence, 1 year suspended sentence, 40 hours of gambling treatment program Ex Progamer ShinHwA - 6 months sentence, 1 year suspended sentence, 40 hours of gambling treatment program
Note on "suspended sentence": If they don't screw up within that time period, they actually don't end up going to jail, and they count that you have served your sentence after that period is over.
The other progamers who were involved were let off with a fine, iirc. I don't know if there was anything past that, but since I haven't seen anything regarding them, I assume that is true.
Betting is illegal in South Korea. I wonder if any of them will attempt a Martha Stewart style comeback after they serve their time. I wonder if they will be able to compete ever again or if their reputations are tarnished for good. That would be cool if there was some kind of prison league that started up as a result of this.
So do I get this right? They don't go to jail at all unless they commit a crime during the probation time? And if they do screw up, they are imprisoned for the duration specified in the OP? Or is the probation time after / in addition to a compulsory jail time?
Progamer sAviOr - 1 year sentence, 2 year probation, 120 hours of community service.
k.. any law students here?
does this mean he goes to jail for 1 year. if his rehabilitation / community service is done well, he is out ( total jail time = 1 year) otherwise he goes for 1+2 years
or..
he doesnt go to jail but if he commits crime within 2 years, he will go to jail for 1 year.
On October 22 2010 18:03 Scorch wrote: So do I get this right? They don't go to jail at all unless they commit a crime during the probation time? And if they do screw up, they are imprisoned for the duration specified in the OP? Or is the probation time after / in addition to a compulsory jail time?
If they don't screw up for the duration of their probation they are not going to jail at all, if they do screw up, they are going to jail for the time specified in the sentence, so Savior for 1 year.
On October 22 2010 18:09 dtz wrote: Progamer sAviOr - 1 year sentence, 2 year probation, 120 hours of community service.
k.. any law students here?
does this mean he goes to jail for 1 year. if his rehabilitation / community service is done well, he is out ( total jail time = 1 year) otherwise he goes for 1+2 years
or..
he doesnt go to jail but if he commits crime within 2 years, he will go to jail for 1 year.
The way it works in the states is you serve your sentence, in Savior's case 1 year in jail and after he's done he has 2 years probation(normally checking in with your parole officer, no drug use, upstanding citizen type crap) where if he violates probation he goes back to jail to serve the rest of his probation there. If he wasn't going to spend anytime in jail they wouldn't have a sentence unless it's a suspended sentence type thing. Korean justice system might work completely different though.
They deserve going to jail for what they did. Screwing up the integrity of a sport by gambling is probably the worst thing a competitor can do other than killing/harming another. Sad that it happened but, at least justice is served.
On October 22 2010 17:47 heyoka wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority here but people going to jail over video games is the funniest thing in the world to me.
I don't think they were accused of playing a video game.
Please ppl..putting a nerd in jail for this will at best create a criminal, and not serve society. I know a lot of people feel punishment in the traditional sense is the only way to go in almost all cases, but that oppinion is either made by anger, or misplaced idealistic principles/lack of knowledge. A find, and community service is a good way to go about it. Soceity won't profit from young gamers with sensible minds being manipulated by murderers in jail. And if you feel individual despair is more important than the better of the society, you know one of the reasons for prisons being a billion dollar industry in you know where, and why the world is crazy
On October 22 2010 18:20 konadora wrote: seems kinda light, yet at the same time, feels kinda harsh. contradictory, yes, but idk that's how i feel :/
That's exactly how I feel too. I guess I am more sad/disappointed that young decently well-off people resorted to crime. I kind of feel bad though about the criminal records/social ostracizing etc I hope theyre not like super fucked for life.
On October 22 2010 17:47 heyoka wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority here but people going to jail over video games is the funniest thing in the world to me.
Savior has turned into a real life Kenny Powers.
They are not going to jail over a video game....its not like they stole some WoW items and are being jailed for it...
They are being jailed for match fixing a sporting event....Jail sentences seem reasonable in this case, they all get what they deserve.
Well in Canada you serve your time first and once you are completed a portion of it you are able to apply for or be released on Probation. If you violate the terms of your Probation you are sent back to Jail to serve the remaining amount of your time.
I have an Aunt who works with the Justice Department here, Generally you will serve 1/6th of your sentence before you get out on Probation based on a review of your behavior.
Whether or not any of this is relavent in a different system of law still remains to be noted, but regardless I think it is safe to say that these people WILL be going to jail. Getting sentenced to jail time then being told you only go there if your bad again is kind of a useless system.
There is really no justification in saying they deserve a degree of lenience because they are either young or accomplished videogame professionals. Im sure they were smart enough to know they were frauding and stealing from people when they set up the details of fixing their matches.
On October 22 2010 19:17 Xavv wrote: Well in Canada you serve your time first and once you are completed a portion of it you are able to apply for or be released on Probation. If you violate the terms of your Probation you are sent back to Jail to serve the remaining amount of your time.
I have an Aunt who works with the Justice Department here, Generally you will server 1/6th of your sentence before you get out on Probation based on a review of your behavior.
Whether or not any of this is relavent in a different system of law still remains to be noted, but regardless I think it is safe to say that these people WILL be going to jail. Getting sentenced to jail time then being told you only go there if your bad again is kind of a useless system.
There is really no justification in saying they deserve a degree of lenience because they are either young or accomplished videogame professionals. Im sure they were smart enough to know they were frauding and stealing from people when they set up the details of fixing their matches.
People offered them money, and they took it. I would understand it if they received a fine, probation, maybe a year of community service, but going to jail? In a lot of ways they're victims themselves too, I imagine after only accepting one time the criminal gambling types had enough power over any of them to push them to more.
If they were sentenced to a term + Probation they will go to jail for a portion or all of the sentence given and then potentially be let out on Probation after that time.
The OP just defined Probation wrong and now has the entire thread confused.
On October 22 2010 20:15 Thunderfist wrote: This is so retarded.
People cant do what they want because someone doesnt like it.
It doesnt damages anyone, and no one is poisoning himself with coke or anything. It's just gambling with money. Wtf is wrong with that ?
Uh...It's really not "just gambling".
The players involved were taking money to throw games so that people who were mass betting could take advantage of it. Not only that, they were going on the same websites themselves and betting AGAINST themselves to further profits made.
It's fraud, plain and simple. There is absolutely no way to justify it.
On October 22 2010 20:20 Piy wrote: So they actually don't go to prison at all if they don't fuck up?
No problem with that really. I appreciate that it's a Korean cultural thing, but from a western standpoint it seems ridiculous.
I think south korea has a serious problem with gambling so I guess that's the reason why these punishments seem rather harsh from a western standpoint.
i heard justin bet 50,000,000 won that he'd be sentenced to more jail time than savior and tried 2 get 18+ months on purpose, they should investigate him for sentence fixing
yeah alotta people seem to think its about the gaming and not the fact of stealing money.. the fact that a video game was used for the theft dosn't make stealing any less.
It's kind of sad these players receive about the same sentence as Plaxico Burress and he was indicted for illegal possession of firearms in a public area.
2 years probation means that if you stuff up during those 2 years you will be imprisoned for the time of your initial sentence. THE WHOLE INITIAL SENTENCE, regardless of how much time has passed on probation.
On October 22 2010 20:30 baller wrote: i heard justin bet 50,000,000 won that he'd be sentenced to more jail time than savior and tried 2 get 18+ months on purpose, they should investigate him for sentence fixing
So many people not reading or not knowing what is what. 1 year jail time, suspended for 2 years = he'll be under watch from an inspector (a policeman or a community service one, I'm not sure how to explain it in English) for 2 years instead of going behind the bars for 1 year.
If he fails to show up for a meeting with his inspector or some shit, he'll be put in jail for that 1 year. The inspector is there for monitoring him, so he won't commit a crime again in those 2 years. And it's not like getting a parking ticket will put him in jail, so stop thinking he'll have to be a saint for 2 years. He'll just have to abide by the law, like every other normal citizen ;/
On October 22 2010 17:47 heyoka wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority here but people going to jail over video games is the funniest thing in the world to me.
Savior has turned into a real life Kenny Powers.
He is not being senteced for playing games, hes sentenced for being part of an illegal betting scam. And for me Its well deserved, the "OMG this are gamers not real mafia guys" excuse doesnt really work, if you made something illegal, you have to pay for it.
I'm still confused whether they're going to jail or not. Does someone have knowledge of how it works in Korea? I mean, it differs so much from US to Canada and in Germany it works also different (if you get suspended sentence you don't go to jail, but if you screw up in this time you have to go), then I think that it possibly works different in Korea,
On October 22 2010 17:47 heyoka wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority here but people going to jail over video games is the funniest thing in the world to me.
Savior has turned into a real life Kenny Powers.
QFT i am flabbergasted to the point i actually get to use this word. Jail sentence, i forget sometimes how serious this is in Korea. WOW i hope Korean jail doesn't include casual buttsecs. Either way, as long as we have brood war.
I'm pretty sure it goes like Jail time then suspended sentence as probation. All laws differ from countries but thats the most common ideology behind it.
Just to clarify here. This is from the wikipedia page on suspended sentence:
A suspended sentence is a legal term for a judge's delaying of a defendant's serving of a sentence after they have been found guilty, in order to allow the defendant to perform a period of probation. If the defendant does not break the law during that period, and fulfils the particular conditions of the probation, the judge usually throws out the sentence
So, savior isn't really going to jail, unless he screws up and gets caught betting on GSL matches or something.
I'm glad that they don't have to go to jail. Jail time for such a minor offense would have been ridiculous. On the other hand they could have increased the community service time so they can at least feel somewhat punished...
On October 22 2010 17:47 heyoka wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority here but people going to jail over video games is the funniest thing in the world to me.
Savior has turned into a real life Kenny Powers.
I agree, but when you make it into a sport you can expect this kind of things...still think that jail time is a bit too much. Nerds in jail? They ain't gonna be able to sit down for years
Why would there be a 1 year sentence AND a 2 years suspended sentence? Im sure that hes in there for a year then will be out on suspended sentence after that 1 year. (in savior's case)
On October 22 2010 23:41 inFeZa wrote: Why would there be a 1 year sentence AND a 2 years suspended sentence? Im sure that hes in there for a year then will be out on suspended sentence after that 1 year. (in savior's case)
Because it is not. As far as I understand it, it is 1 year suspended sentence with 2 year probation, which means he will be watched for 2 years and if he commits crime in that time he will go to jail for one year (+ whatever will be added for the new crime). And being watched does not necessarily mean having to see someone regularly (although it is possible), just that if he commits crime he will serve time both for this sentence and for the new one.
but thanks to bad translation there is possibility that is is 1 year sentence with 2 years suspended sentence, but I don't think it is high probability
"break their parole" jesus..i mean, some nerds fixed a Starcraft game. Yes, it's a pretty serious offence, but it's not like their all sitting with the shivers, and a gun in their hand just waiting to rob a liquor store
On October 22 2010 17:47 heyoka wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority here but people going to jail over video games is the funniest thing in the world to me.
Savior has turned into a real life Kenny Powers.
Why is it even relevant that it's video games. All that matters is money.
They committed fraud, the fact that it involved video games does not reduce the severity of the crime anymore than murder would be taken less seriously if someone was killed by being bludgeoned with a keyboard.
No matter the means of the scam they profited from corruption and people were robbed of their money.
On October 23 2010 01:30 oRacLeGosu wrote: "break their parole" jesus..i mean, some nerds fixed a Starcraft game. Yes, it's a pretty serious offence, but it's not like their all sitting with the shivers, and a gun in their hand just waiting to rob a liquor store
Well fraud might not be as bad as threatening someone's life but it ain't something to take lightly either. The fact the they used a video game to commit fraud is irrelevant.
I can only imagine that courtroom. "As you can see here judge, Savior made an obvious mistake which cost him the game..." And only in Korea is there a chance that the judge would know what they're talking about.
I can't say I disagree with the court's decision. I wonder what'll happen to these players once their sentence is over.
On October 22 2010 19:47 Mothxal wrote: People offered them money, and they took it. I would understand it if they received a fine, probation, maybe a year of community service, but going to jail? In a lot of ways they're victims themselves too, I imagine after only accepting one time the criminal gambling types had enough power over any of them to push them to more.
I know, the other day this guy offered me money to steal something. I should've taken it, huh?
They took money in a way that is ILLEGAL. Sometimes, when do you illegal things, you go to JAIL. That's the way a penal system works. If you can't do the time, don't do the crime (yeah yeah, don't do it...if somebody recognizes that quote I'll be impressed ;b).
Plus, they aren't going to jail, they have a suspended sentence and a heap of community service. Totally fair, imo.
And a HUGE LOL to the "some people aren't made for jail" thing. Yeah, like I shouldn't ever have to go to jail because it's just not very convenient for me.
On October 22 2010 17:49 Klive5ive wrote: 1 year in jail seems intuitively wrong to me. They should have fined him more and less jail.
edit: Ah he's not certain to be jailed, that makes more sense.
You have to take into account that these players will have a very hard time finding jobs, especially savior, because he was so well known, and so well know now, for his taking part in this. So, he really has to save up that money, and i think the judge realized this
On October 22 2010 17:49 Klive5ive wrote: 1 year in jail seems intuitively wrong to me. They should have fined him more and less jail.
edit: Ah he's not certain to be jailed, that makes more sense.
You have to take into account that these players will have a very hard time finding jobs, especially savior, because he was so well known, and so well know now, for his taking part in this. So, he really has to save up that money, and i think the judge realized this
Eh, Savior is the Korean Martha Stewart.
Was rich but still got greedy, broke the law, got in trouble. Maybe one day he'll get back to the spotlight.
On October 22 2010 18:32 oRacLeGosu wrote: Please ppl..putting a nerd in jail for this will at best create a criminal, and not serve society. I know a lot of people feel punishment in the traditional sense is the only way to go in almost all cases, but that oppinion is either made by anger, or misplaced idealistic principles/lack of knowledge. A find, and community service is a good way to go about it. Soceity won't profit from young gamers with sensible minds being manipulated by murderers in jail. And if you feel individual despair is more important than the better of the society, you know one of the reasons for prisons being a billion dollar industry in you know where, and why the world is crazy
Finally some common sense.....
Some of you who stated they should go to jail should maybe do some times urself and see how u like it... Mixing computer nerds who where poor and made bad decisions with rapists, murderers and paedophiles is fucking stupid. They go in normal and come out with the knowledge of how to cook meth, rob people with minimal risk and how to avoid being detected when raping/murdering..... Same issue with marijuana but thats a whole other basket of eggs
Jail is a system of control used by oppresive autocracies to use fear as a tool to keep sheep from making there own minds up in the face of illogical decisions being made by there governments which are controlled by corporations.
I believe societies problems are too vast and from to many contributing factors for jail to work on people... We need to wake up and realize that if people were not poor (ie disband capatalism because it is killing democracy) and there was no drug war waged on civilians (ie in netherlands where if u get addicted to heroin u get it for free from the doctor after u admit u are a junky, there for reducing violent crimes and robberys dramatically) that actually taking the time to find out what is wrong in a persons life and try to help them fix it is the best solution to crimes any society can ever have.
Look what happens in america, fucking 3 strikes law in some states is the most retarded thing i have ever heard off, and u wonder why u see a police chases CONSTANTLY with people killing people just to get away.... when all they are doing is getting pulled over with weed in theyre pocket..... Is it a co-incidence that the same countries who enforce 3 strike u get life policys are the very same places where jails are run by corporations who make MONEY per head off the people in those jails... no.
Community service, bann them from playing the game proffessionaly ever again and fine them. Shit society has bigger fish to fry and jails are already full
Hmm, why is there no mention of go.go and Hwasin ? Honestly, I found those were the only two I actually cared about (more-so go.go than Hwasin). Just hope that their sentences aren't as big
I mean there are much worse things in the world than throwing a game for money that go unpunished... not to mention they more or less have a future, not to mention Prison seems to be a really terribad place :/
Bisu fans rejoice for go.go is no longer there to embarrass him :O
edit: Reread thread and understood that the sentenced players will not necessarily go to jail
I don't understand all this pro-fixers commotion. Match fixing RUINS any sport! I hope they die 5 times and go to all imaginable hells. One year of jail for a guy who betrays the sport that made him what he is? Not that much.
Obviously it depends on the circumstances. Completely insane serial murder caught and sentenced? Phew, relief. Jaywalker sentenced to life in prison? Uh... Match-fixer given a sentence that may or may not deter future offenders? That's completely debatable.
I don't see why people are so quick to make all-encompassing statements like this.
uhhh im no lawyer but if they list the sentence and the suspended sentence separately doesn't that mean they serve the sentence and THEN go on probation for the listed time? so all of them are going to jail?
reading this thread it seems like everyone is reading '2 year suspended sentence' and skipping the rest of the information LOL
On October 23 2010 06:29 Licmyobelisk wrote: Looks like none of them are going to Jail but will be probationary depending on their sentence. but does that mean they can play SC 2? I guess yes
On October 23 2010 08:42 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: uhhh im no lawyer but if they list the sentence and the suspended sentence separately doesn't that mean they serve the sentence and THEN go on probation for the listed time? so all of them are going to jail?
reading this thread it seems like everyone is reading '2 year suspended sentence' and skipping the rest of the information LOL
since these gamers had their gaming license suspended by Kespa, it appears that Kespa might not have a hold on the progaming scene much longer as Blizzard seems to be promoting a more open 'free-for-all' policy, does this mean they can participate in Blizzard sanctioned tourneys like the GSL? I was always under the impression that Gaming Licenses only apply to Kespa-related activities, and Blizzard never cared for those...
On October 22 2010 18:00 b_unnies wrote: im clueless on laws, but if probation means that they dont go to jail unless they screw up, why is probation period longer than jail time ?
Seriously? Probation outside of jail, will always be longer than actual jail time. Does that not make sense?
i like go.go/brood twins/hwasin/type-b so i'm probably a bit biased towards them, but i think a heavy fine and a ban from BW is punishment enough for just being involved.
however, trash like justin and savior who entice these progamers to match-fix AND THEN forcing them to continue (savior made hwasin feel guilty by saying "oh, my hyung said he lost XXXXXXX won because of you, what are you going to do about it?", and hwasin was only given leta's BO and still lost) deserve to be punished more. you worry about prison changing their minds into criminals, but i think savior thinks he's so baller that he can go bully other progamers that maybe he should feel a little bullying himself
i understand these sentences sound harsh...but imagine if peyton manning fixed the super bowl...or a baseball/hockey/basketball players decided to fix a game. this is serious stuff because people do bet on these things(so do the people who are fixing the games) so people can make serious money in a dishonest way. match fixing is very immoral and goes against everything competition stands for. although fines seem to hurt people more than jail time (in white collar crime). also this is a new industry (a decade old) courts accross the world often use big things in a new scene to make examples so people dont do it again (all the new types of internet crimes)
to Americans it seems like a video game. To Koreans (and the sc2 community) its a sport and a league and a business. Businesses need to conduct themselves with a level of integrity. and clearly some teams/players aka businesses conducted themselves very inappropriately.
i hope this makes sense and i hope i didnt ramble. take care
I think they got sentenced with 'joint suspensions'. Which basically means they go on probation for the suspended sentence that the OP wrote and if they mess up they will serve the initial sentence.
On October 23 2010 08:42 FakeSteve[TPR] wrote: uhhh im no lawyer but if they list the sentence and the suspended sentence separately doesn't that mean they serve the sentence and THEN go on probation for the listed time? so all of them are going to jail?
reading this thread it seems like everyone is reading '2 year suspended sentence' and skipping the rest of the information LOL
That's what I thought at first. However, some people pointed out that "suspended sentence" actually means that the sentence serving is delayed and only comes into effect if the defendant commits another crime during the period of the suspended sentence. In Savior's case this would mean that only if he commits another crime during the next two years he'll have to serve one year of jail time. As opposed to serving 1 year in prison and then being on probation for two more years. Suspended Sentence
They were more suspended for the fact that they were involved in a money making scandal than gambling itself. Still, the sentences feel a little harsh.
On October 23 2010 16:52 nalgene wrote: They're only banned by KeSPA? Can they play in American tournaments if they get out?
I believe Blizzard has officially banned them from SC2 tournys as well. In other words, the only thing they can do is play SCBW in the US after they get out... but then again, the only people who still play SCBW in the US are hardcore TL'ers and those who know about Progambler Ma. So basically, he can't do anything even when he gets out.
I just find it funny that Mr. Ma is not getting fined at all... I think jail is a little too harsh for having already destroyed his entire career and future. But then again, all he has left is his money and his rolex watches, I guess we could leave him some of that.
They aren't going to jail because of a video game but rather financial fraud; rigging games to make money out of it etc. It's like the mob in the 60's! weeee ;D
On October 22 2010 18:32 oRacLeGosu wrote: Please ppl..putting a nerd in jail for this will at best create a criminal, and not serve society. I know a lot of people feel punishment in the traditional sense is the only way to go in almost all cases, but that oppinion is either made by anger, or misplaced idealistic principles/lack of knowledge. A find, and community service is a good way to go about it. Soceity won't profit from young gamers with sensible minds being manipulated by murderers in jail. And if you feel individual despair is more important than the better of the society, you know one of the reasons for prisons being a billion dollar industry in you know where, and why the world is crazy
You make some sense, but are way off in the wrong direction. They didn't get any jailtime (yet) so when are they going to be manipulated by some murderer? Fact remains that there has to be some sort of disincentive to cheat in this way or the decision will only be easier to make in the future for other progamers.
On October 22 2010 17:47 heyoka wrote: Maybe I'm in the minority here but people going to jail over video games is the funniest thing in the world to me.
The sad thing about all of this is, they are now legit bad boys and have the papers to prove it. The amount of pussy they will harvest is unimaginable, compared to what pro gaming supplied. Slap on a tatoo and start smoking fags, then you will be set for life, pussy-wise....
First of all, they will be jailed as an example of match fixing. This will warn other progammers that match fixing is stupid and yes, you will go to jail for that.
1 year of sentence, 2 years of suspended sentence means that the minimum sentence for financial fraud is 3 years. But instead of put your ass into jail for 3 years, the law will let you serve 1 year in the slammer and 2 years of probation. The lawyer probably pulls some sort of deals or whatever to lighten Savior's sentence.
It's just habits of Korean court to tell sentence first even if criminals actually get suspended sentence Korean court usually do not order first-time offenders to go jail unless guilt is too serious
I don't think they will go anywhere videogames or games in general anytime soon. Suspended sentence for first time offenders is pretty common, does it work differently in the US ? I don't get why people are so confused.
Be interesting to see how this all turns out a little bit further down the line. Though hopefully this sends out a strong message for anyone wanting to do match fixing in the future
On October 24 2010 09:06 Romantic wrote: Why should someone be thrown in a cage for it?
I've still yet to figure out why people who are not a danger to others are put in cages as punishment.
Here is why match-fixing is bad:
Gamblers makes bets with the assumption that the payout is slightly better than 1:1, because they have some internal knowledge/belief that the betting line is not entirely accurate. Match-fixing turns what should be a 50/50 bet into a 100/0 bet. Those on the 0 side have been defrauded of their money, because the 50/50 expectation was not true.
Imagine if I'm playing roulette, but the casino is using a wheel where it always lands on Red. If I bet Black, the Casino essentially stole money from me. In match-fixing, it's a third-party rather than the "house" who's doing the defrauding, but the victim is no better off.
This is exactly the same as someone investing in a company with the belief the stock price will go up, but the stock price plummets to zero because the company lied about its prospects for success. Aka securities fraud.
It's also the same as me selling you a defective laptop, because you assumed the laptop would only have a .01% chance of failing rather than the actual percentage of 100%. Aka consumer fraud.
Defrauders are dangerous to society because money is just as important, if not more-so, to the wellbeing of an individual than their physical safety.
By the way, i dont really see this as a crime ala OJ Simpson that makes you go back and hate him even though he was one of the greatest. I see this as relatively petty and wish they wouldn't be 'banned forever' from Korean gaming.
It's not made clear, who threw games, and who just bet on games.
It is clear that these players were all very good, and had a flawless(?) reputation before this.
I wonder how many more are involved, and if many are keeping their mouths shut to avoid pointless collateral damage, (more players and people being thrown out of esports, shamed)