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5003 Posts
KeSPA and the 10 Progame Teams: "We're disappointed by Blizzard's Interview that devalues the efforts of the organizations that had developed eSports for 10 years"
KeSPA found that there were misunderstandings regarding the current situation regarding negotiations and the conflict points in Paul Sam's press conference, and thus, they are releasing an official statement that aims to straighten many of these misconceptions.
▶ KeSPA and the 10 Progame teams acknowledge Blizzard's IP Rights. KeSPA and the negotiation team have recognized Blizzard's intellectual property rights from the beginning of the negotiations as Blizzard is the original author. This agreement regarding recognizing Intellectual Property rights was something that was agreed upon even within the negotiations, and this was also the reason why negotiations were possible to the present, and KeSPA and the negotiation team had sincerely applied themselves to the negotiations. But because recognizing the IP rights shouldn't be a chain that constrains the organizations involved via license fees, demanding complete ownership rights to derivative works, and to even demanding auditing rights to KeSPA, KeSPA has repeatedly been in discussions to try and reach a common ground where both sides can agree with with regards to IP rights acknowledgement.
▶ The misunderstanding behind the "Communal Property" Comment.
The comment that caused many misunderstandings that implied that Starcraft and other games involved in eSports are communal property is a comment stemming from an misunderstanding within communication process. KeSPA had only meant that eSports is within the realm of sports where many people watch and enjoy, and Sports needs to guarantee Public viewing rights to the audience. KeSPa will now make it clear that the remark did not intend to imply that "eSports games are communal property".
▶ The extreme amount requested by Gretech will put the eSports market under trial. While Blizzard has mentioned that KeSPA had made 1.7 billion won in the three years KeSPA had run a licensing business, and that the amount Gretech requested is only 1/5th of the amount taken in by KeSPA, but in reality, the amount requested by the Gretech amounts to 700 million won a year minimum if you combine the Proleague and both Individual Leagues. This amounts to far more than 2 billion won even through a simple calculation. Furthermore, because Gretech continues to push for year long contracts, we don't know how much they will charge for extending the contract after the first year.
KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue.
Currently, KeSPA's main source of revenue are the membership fee, the Proleague sponsorships, and the Proleague licensing revenues, and these revenues are completely reinvested into operating the Proleague and to grow the foundations of eSports.
The Proleague licensing business was started with the purpose of creating an industrial framework so that many more people could watch eSports and Proleague through many more platform channels that arose from changes in the media industry.
From this, KeSPA completely reinvests the Proleague licensing revenues so that contests on the scale of the Proleague will continue to operate, which allows for maintaining and expanding a market where many teams and players can be active. KeSPA also covers up the deficit created by operating these leagues, and they are covered in part by the membership fees.
Even up to today, Korea's eSports market, unlike other Pro Sports markets, has difficulty stably operating and creating profits. The licensing fees charged by Blizzard and Gretech in the name of "only companies with a certain level should participate in the eSports industry" is at a level that can shake the foundations of the current eSports market in Korea.
▶ KeSPA and the Progame teams are doing their best to guarantee the rights of the players.
Blizzard has commented that KeSPA and the Progame teams restrict the freedom of the players, and that Blizzard would renovate this system by raising eSports and the players in the proper way.
But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice.
Furthermore, KeSPA, through negotiations with colleges, is trying its best to renovate the player's education environment, and even created the Ace Progame team so that good players could maintain their skill. The progame team also offers ways in which the retired players could work as a team coach, and also provides opportunities to be recruited into certain corporations.
Blizzard needs to think once again how much effort that went into the last 10 years by the many players and participants to create a stable Progame team system via corporate sponsorships.
▶ The records and accomplishment of players are history. It's quite different from Blizzard's accusations of removing NaDa's rights as a player and deleting his records and accomplishments. NaDa, after his contract ended with his team, has expressed desire to retire. All that happened was his retirement went through, and there wasn't an incident where his accomplishments were taken away or deleted [T/N: This refers to an incident where NaDa's records got deleted for a few hours on KeSPA's site. KeSPA has said it was a computer error]
▶ Blizzard should not ignore the accomplishments and the efforts by the organizations that have advanced eSports for the past 10 years. Blizzard said that because players and audiences have a right to demand and enjoy high quality eSports broadcasts, and said that they need a broadcast license fee so that only companies that reach a certain standard can enter the eSports industry. But in the last 10 years, the broadcasting stations and the Progame teams, KeSPA, and other organizations had worked together to create the foundation and the model of an eSports industry, and it's becoming the standard of worldwide eSports. Many organizations around the world took interest in the growth of Korea's eSports scene and introduced it to the world, and many countries are using Korea's eSports system as a model to develop an eSports market in their country.
In order to develop Korea's eSports market, over the last 10 years the Progame teams invested billions of won every year. The government, civilian organization, and KeSPA has also continued to put in many costs and effort to expand the base of eSports in Korea and to enhance the status of Esports internationally.
Thus, Blizzard's argument about "License fee to have a high quality eSports broadcast" is a statement that ostracizes the broadcasting companies, the progame teams, KeSPA, the government, and all other involved organizations, while ignoring the efforts and accomplishments of these organizations in the past 10 years, and we express extreme disappointment regarding this statement.
▶ KeSPA and the 10 Progame teams all want the negotiations to be resolved quickly. KeSPA has put together a negotiation team and met around 10 times now and continued to advance the negotiations. Through negotiations and by narrowing the difference in opinions, there was a complete agreement with the exception of 2~3 articles, and in reality negotiations were very close to being settled. However, in this past November 25th, Blizzard and Gretech has suddenly announced that if KeSPA does not agree to Blizzard and Gretech's original demands regarding the ownership of derivative works [T/N: Before this, KeSPA offered 50/50 and Gretech seemed to have agreed considering their previous statement, but it looks like they took all of this back to that point where Blizzard owns 100%?], then negotiations regarding license fees will be impossible.
The negotiation team, even after this statement where all the negotiations done before where thoroughly ignored, had made queries regarding the this remark and is currently waiting for a response. Even though KeSPA and the negotiation team has approached the negotiation with sincerity, Blizzard and Gretech had made a sudden statement revealing that they are preparing a lawcase, leading the negotiation to a stop. We are curious about Blizzard's real intentions and doubtful about Blizzard's desire to settle the negotiation.
However, even through all this, KeSPA and the negotiation team, and the Broadcasting station that has a lawsuit awaiting them, will always be willing to sincerely reenter negotiations for the growth of eSports in Korea and the rights for eSports fans to watch games.
On December 06 2010 11:15 Selith wrote:Seems KeSPA posted additional information yesterday. This new information includes more detail on the actual KeSPA's income from licensing fee and what they did with it. So here you go: Source is: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=2416325Show nested quote +KeSPA spoke yesterday (Dec. 5th), that "[KeSPA] finalized broadcasting licensing with IEG as the broadcasting business in 2007, and received 1,700,000,000 won for 3 years of broadcasting. But, 1,500,000,000 won were invested in broadcasting production purposes for OGN and MBCGame over the 3 years, and whatever remained were invested in events and promotions. As a result, profits gained through the leagues are virtually nil. Even before we can fully operate e-sports market comfortably, the "ridiculous licensing fee" requested by Blizzard / Gretech can completely shake down the very roots of e-sports market."
In addition, they said, for the rights of viewers and the growth of e-sport in Korea, KeSPA and broadcasting companies will always actively take part in the negotiations.
KeSPA showed their operating costs and income over the years of 2007, 2008, and 2009 as follows:
* In 2007 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 500,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2008 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2009 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* Throughout 2007, 2008, and 2009, total of - 200,000,000 won was spent for marketing and promotion *
** Total tally **
Profit: 1,700,000,000 won
Broadcasting support cost: - 1,500,000,000 won Marketing and promotion: - 200,000,000 won
Hmm. Korean netizens in general saying the same thing you've heard that they have been: "lol kespa"
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Looking forward to it Milkis Hyung :3
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Thanks Milkis. Waiting in anticipation.
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Don't you have finals/papers to do? >:O But thanks :3
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Oooo, I am shivering with excitement. Thanks again, Milkis, for another awesome translation! =3
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Damn what a tease!
Goodluck with translation.
*saved edit for response from translated article*
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
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How do you translate a giant middle finger?
edit: ty Milkis :3
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On December 03 2010 17:21 moopie wrote: How do you translate a giant middle finger?
lol yes how do you translate a middle finger?
Jokes aside,I wonder what they think of not filing an injunction?
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On December 03 2010 17:21 moopie wrote: How do you translate a giant middle finger? LOL. I'm pretty sure it's universally understood. Like math.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On December 03 2010 17:26 LunarC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 17:21 moopie wrote: How do you translate a giant middle finger? LOL. I'm pretty sure it's universally understood. Like math.
and Coconuts.
Please translate quick or I might get caught using a school computer for this.
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Sweet, thanks in advance for your hard work during exam time Milkis
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Paul Sams was obviously trolling. So, way to feed the troll, KESPA.
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On December 03 2010 17:18 konadora wrote: milkis, have my konamix
Konakis? Milkadora?
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
On December 03 2010 17:46 ninini wrote: Paul Sams was obviously trolling. So, way to feed the troll, KESPA.
He was trolling?It didn't seem like it to me.
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what is this about? i guess i'll find out
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5003 Posts
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We'll see when milkis is done translating, but Sam's visit to Korea should trigger Kespa to allow players to switch games at will... Or they could just ignore him and go on being who they are.
Edit: Well nevermind then, they end up saying nothing we haven't heard before, except the college part, which isn't really a thing, they are "Looking into it". Blizzard's position is still the reasonable one to me. Thanks Milkis
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5003 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:02 Zozo wrote: We'll see when milkis is done translating, but Sam's visit to Korea should trigger Kespa to allow players to switch games at will... Or they could just ignore him and go on being who they are.
They've always been allowed to do that, officially, anyway.
There were a few articles i've read regarding some threats but that was from the progame teams themselves and i have no idea if they went through with it.
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Thanks for the translation. Hm it sounds like Kespa/MBC/OGN are softening or maybe this statement are just worded more mildly but it seemed like a major swing of attitude from the " just try and sue us you foreign company approach" I wonder if they think they are losing considering the previous articles which seemed to indicated that Gretech is gaining momentum + netizens reactions. Then again i'm no law expert so don't mind me.
Well, hopefully this will bring things closer to negotiations because at least OGN/MBC and the Teams does not deserve all of this regardless of what we think of Kespa and Gretech.
I still don't buy their Nada's record excuse though.
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ALLEYCAT BLUES49034 Posts
I like this interview and KeSPA did not flame paul sams at all(shocking really).I wonder why Gretech went back on their deal?....no don't give me crap like "They want to kill BW hurr durr",Sane explainations are helpful.)
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5003 Posts
I still don't buy their Nada's record excuse though.
What excuse?
Most of the extreme rumors started off from pgr21 which goes batshit insane over the tiniest things KeSPA does. They were like "oh okay" later after they found out more about it :O
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o.o i would have expected KesPA to lash out at Blizzard, but it seems like they are saying that Blizzard and Gretech are the ones being the assholes here and are trying to take advantage of them. Lets just see what Blizzard/ Gretech would say about this.\
and of course, thank you milkis!
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On December 03 2010 18:07 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:02 Zozo wrote: We'll see when milkis is done translating, but Sam's visit to Korea should trigger Kespa to allow players to switch games at will... Or they could just ignore him and go on being who they are. They've always been allowed to do that, officially, anyway. There were a few articles i've read regarding some threats but that was from the progame teams themselves and i have no idea if they went through with it.
Well, I didn't know about that, it always felt like the player had to retire to go after new games, which kinda makes it look like he's no longer a pro. nvm what i said then.
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On December 03 2010 18:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: I like this interview and KeSPA did not flame paul sams at all(shocking really).I wonder why Gretech went back on their deal?....no don't give me crap like "They want to kill BW hurr durr",Sane explainations are helpful.) I think i'm being perfectly rational when i do believe they want to kill proBW.
On December 03 2010 18:13 Zozo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:07 Milkis wrote:On December 03 2010 18:02 Zozo wrote: We'll see when milkis is done translating, but Sam's visit to Korea should trigger Kespa to allow players to switch games at will... Or they could just ignore him and go on being who they are. They've always been allowed to do that, officially, anyway. There were a few articles i've read regarding some threats but that was from the progame teams themselves and i have no idea if they went through with it. Well, I didn't know about that, it always felt like the player had to retire to go after new games, which kinda makes it look like he's no longer a pro. nvm what i said then.
I don't want to work at the supermarket anymore so i go get a job at the department store...naturally the supermarket decides they don't want to continue paying me.. =S
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Canada5565 Posts
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On December 03 2010 18:13 Zozo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:07 Milkis wrote:On December 03 2010 18:02 Zozo wrote: We'll see when milkis is done translating, but Sam's visit to Korea should trigger Kespa to allow players to switch games at will... Or they could just ignore him and go on being who they are. They've always been allowed to do that, officially, anyway. There were a few articles i've read regarding some threats but that was from the progame teams themselves and i have no idea if they went through with it. Well, I didn't know about that, it always felt like the player had to retire to go after new games, which kinda makes it look like he's no longer a pro. nvm what i said then.
Most of the former MBC players who moved to SC2 are still registered with Kespa so its up to the individual player/team really whether they want to retire.
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Estonia4504 Posts
Hmm... I hope Blizzard/Gretech isn't mad about what seems to be breaches of the NDA regarding negotiations. Their position has softened considerably, and I really hope Blizzard agrees, for the sake of E-sports. I don't think it's fair that they get 50% ownership, but that's just a pill we have to swallow.
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9069 Posts
thank you Milkis <3
I was hoping for a Kespa response
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Russian Federation122 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:07 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:02 Zozo wrote: We'll see when milkis is done translating, but Sam's visit to Korea should trigger Kespa to allow players to switch games at will... Or they could just ignore him and go on being who they are. They've always been allowed to do that, officially, anyway. There were a few articles i've read regarding some threats but that was from the progame teams themselves and i have no idea if they went through with it.
Really? As far as I know, they are disallowed to play SC2 by their contract, even in their's free time and non-competitively
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On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote: ▶ The extreme amount requested by Gretech will put the eSports market under trial. While Blizzard has mentioned that KeSPA had made 1.7 billion won in the three years KeSPA had run a licensing business, and that the amount Gretech requested is only 1/5th of the amount taken in by KeSPA, but in reality, the amount requested by the Gretech amounts to 700 million won a year minimum if you combine the Proleague and both Individual Leagues. This amounts to far more than 2 billion won even through a simple calculation. Furthermore, because Gretech continues to push for year long contracts, we don't know how much they will charge for extending the contract after the first year.
This is what I've been saying too. Not sure how Sams calculated his numbers.
On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote: Blizzard has commented that KeSPA and the Progame teams restrict the freedom of the players, and that Blizzard would renovate this system by raising eSports and the players in the proper way.
But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice. I don't see a problem with this either. Yes, the contracts are strict in how and what the player does with his time, but thats because the player is contracted to commit to practice bw. A player that wants to spend a few months to practice SC2 for example can do so, but not while he is getting housed and paid to be a full-time bw player. Sams wants the players to be able to do what they want to, but still expects their teams to support them financially regardless.
As for the NaDa incident, I believe it wasn't malicious simply because I don't think KeSPA would have been that stupid with regards to the PR hit. That aside, Sams also accused e-sports under KeSPA as being responsible for the match fixing scandal, which is pretty outrageous. That scandal happened due to a few greedy individuals betraying their teams and fellow players and coaches, and wouldn't have been any different with another organization at the helm.
I also think the 'entry fee' thing is pretty absurd, being a recurring fee on a per-contract basis, with a year in length. Blizzard claims it exists to uphold IP rights (gee they are using that as a reasoning for everything these days), yet it is just a fee that gets attached on top of the already existing operating costs. It is said to be a fee to make sure that the content is professional, though with less money to spend on production, it certainly won't improve. Haven't years of airing MSL,OSL and SPL showed that the level of production has been worthy? either way, charging a fee won't change that. Whether or not Blizzard intends to pocket that cash or give it to the homeless, at the end its still money that is being taken out of the BW esports market and going elsewhere, thus burdening the already delicate financial balance in play.
Thanks again for translating Milkis <3.
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5003 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:20 Tirr wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:07 Milkis wrote:On December 03 2010 18:02 Zozo wrote: We'll see when milkis is done translating, but Sam's visit to Korea should trigger Kespa to allow players to switch games at will... Or they could just ignore him and go on being who they are. They've always been allowed to do that, officially, anyway. There were a few articles i've read regarding some threats but that was from the progame teams themselves and i have no idea if they went through with it. Really? As far as I know, they are disallowed to play SC2 by their contract, even in their's free time and non-competitively
Well you're quite wrong considering many teams actually have computers with SC2 in progaming houses so many players could try playing sc2 and stuff :|
not sure where these rumors start really :O
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On December 03 2010 18:14 ShadeR wrote: I don't want to work at the supermarket anymore so i go get a job at the department store...naturally the supermarket decides they don't want to continue paying me.. =S
That is not what I meant, if I decided to check back after a long time away on my favorite player (let's say nada) and went to Kespa looking for info they wouldn't tell me: "He's now playing starcraft 2", I would get "He's now retired from broodwar".
Doesn't matter though, I had the wrong idea to begin with.
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Canada10904 Posts
On December 03 2010 18:14 ShadeR wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: I like this interview and KeSPA did not flame paul sams at all(shocking really).I wonder why Gretech went back on their deal?....no don't give me crap like "They want to kill BW hurr durr",Sane explainations are helpful.) I think i'm being perfectly rational when i do believe they want to kill proBW.
Easier ways to go about this- starting with a patch that kills BW a couple months after release, stop selling the game in stores, shut down iCCup and close Battlenet 1.0. Given the lack of these much easier and less expensive methods, I'd be hesitant to think that they're hoping to to kill off BW.
Thanks so much Milkis for translating this stuff. So good to read.
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Blizzard claims: "We just want IP rights not money (trollface), we like eSports and we can do better than you guys~ we already got gom on our side AND the flash & jaedong of law firms lolsupnow?"
Kespa: "Fuck that!, we worked our asses off for 10 years you can't just take it all away, we know its your game but we can hold tournies and broadcast for eSports fans in our own country"
-_- I'm crazy
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On December 03 2010 18:26 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 18:14 ShadeR wrote:On December 03 2010 18:09 BLinD-RawR wrote: I like this interview and KeSPA did not flame paul sams at all(shocking really).I wonder why Gretech went back on their deal?....no don't give me crap like "They want to kill BW hurr durr",Sane explainations are helpful.) I think i'm being perfectly rational when i do believe they want to kill proBW. Easier ways to go about this- starting with a patch that kills BW a couple months aftere release, stop selling the game in stores, shut down iCCup and close Battlenet 1.0. Given the lack of these much easier and less expensive methods, I'd be hesitant to think that they're hoping to to kill off BW. Not really. Not if you are trying to kill of your product gently (without painting yourself as the bad-guy). I don't think they want to kill BW either, though they certainly want power over KeSPA. Having BW out of the way benefits SC2 quite a bit, but having complete power over BW in korea means you can move BW off primetime to free slots for SC2 (which they initially demanded in negotations with the stations), and then after that as long as BW can continue to prop itself up I don't think they care either way. SC2 sales generate money, BW sales are more or less stagnant at this point. WIth SC2 having 2 expansions planned for the next few years, you can expect Blizzard to want to keep people interested until then. If BW ends up dying as a result of bad negotiations and court disputes, Blizzard can continue their PR and claim they are innocent and they wanted eSports to grow, but KeSPA didn't want to listen.
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This is pretty interesting. KeSPA states that they recognize Blizzard's IP rights, but they also don't want to do any of the things that go along with that. It's like saying you'll take out the trash, but never actually doing it. Blizzard being unreasonable with their requests is a separate issue, and that's what negotiations are for. The issue is if you claim to respect Blizzard's IP rights then you are NOT allowed to make money from their product without a license. What Blizzard asks for is a whole other argument, the legal argument here is whether or not Blizzard has the RIGHT to ask for anything, and legally Blizzard most certainly does.
I am very skeptical of KeSPA's claims that they don't have any money to spare. At the same time I think Blizzard already knows that KeSPA/MBC etc have the ability to produce high quality broadcasts. This is basically a pissing contest between these two companies and as far as the law is concerned, Blizzard is in the right.
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All this PR propaganda from Blizzard and KeSPA is starting to become boring really fast.
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thanks translating all of this :3
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On December 03 2010 18:33 Zim23 wrote: This is pretty interesting. KeSPA states that they recognize Blizzard's IP rights, but they also don't want to do any of the things that go along with that. It's like saying you'll take out the trash, but never actually doing it. Blizzard being unreasonable with their requests is a separate issue, and that's what negotiations are for. The issue is if you claim to respect Blizzard's IP rights then you are NOT allowed to make money from their product without a license. What Blizzard asks for is a whole other argument, the legal argument here is whether or not Blizzard has the RIGHT to ask for anything, and legally Blizzard most certainly does. Please. KeSPA recognizing Blizzards IP rights is one thing. Blizzard wanting complete copyright of broadcasts + renegotiation of contract terms every year is another, though Blizzard is doing their HARDEST to equate one with the other.
* IP rights: Every license needs a clause acknowledging Blizzard for creating the game and for the ownership of the IP. * Approval: Whenever you use the Intellectual Property rights, you need approval from Blizzard and Gretech source Ownership might be 50:50, but Blizzard has final say about everything. KeSPA has been doing a fine job for the last 10 years and now having to run everything through Blizzard just shows how arrogant Blizzard really is.
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thanks for translating
kespa is basically saying "we don't actually make money so the amount you're asking for is unreasonable" which seems likely to be true
this on the other hand
▶ KeSPA and the Progame teams are doing their best to guarantee the rights of the players. is pretty lolworthy
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Finally, the translation is up, thanks again, Milkis! Kespa's position is so much clearer to me now. Both Blizzard and Kespa may be waxing lyrical about their own positions, but Kespa, no matter their faults, has a very good reason for not seeing the negotiations through entirely.
Personally, I would normally not take any sides at all but rather only support MBC and OGN to get out of this whole mess but now Blizzard is just bullying the BW proscene into submission. And that is not a nice thing. Thus, I as a fan do not appreciate that at all so bring it on (edit: with your Kim & Chang lawyers)! =3
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Nice, well balanced response from KeSPA. Still don't know to who root for in this tug of war.
But... "License fee to have a high quality eSports broadcast" How the hell Gretech (GOM) still have the rights? Remember few days before Pre-Season 1 GSL that there will be no free streams outside of korea and a separate package for vods and stream. Also a official post in TL from GOM about that issue that they run in the red and had to cash in on western viewers? Heck OSL/proleague was way better (as a broadcast - not commenting the matches) at the time and they say now that they want quality assurance by fees..
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That was a pretty good response by Kespa.
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I don't like how Blizzard is handling this, but anyone who followed the Jaedong "free agent" saga knows that anything Kespa says about players' rights is just for PR.
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KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue.
So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok.
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On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok.
revenue =/= profit
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On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok.
A non-profit organization (abbreviated as NPO, also known as a not-for-profit organization) is an organization that does not distribute its surplus funds to owners or shareholders, but instead uses them to help pursue its goals.
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On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok.
jesus not this again ..
get your facts straight ..
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On December 03 2010 19:58 ThePurist wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok. revenue =/= profit
nope, (((in this case) positive)!) revenue in comparison to total outlay = profit.
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i agree with kespa, thow i know they have their issues , but those are not so big as blizzard problems
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NaDa's records got deleted for a few hours on KeSPA's site. KeSPA has said it was a computer error
AHAHAHAHHAHAHA, that's so good, made me laugh
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 03 2010 20:15 Geo.Rion wrote: NaDa's records got deleted for a few hours on KeSPA's site. KeSPA has said it was a computer error
AHAHAHAHHAHAHA, that's so good, made me laugh It happens on government servers as well when someone's state is altered, only to be reinstated. In notars offices in Estonia, at least.
Also, it seems pretty weird that Nada was the only one, and only for a few hours. You'd think MVP, July and Boxer would have received the same treatment.
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new usage of corruptor with corruption very interesting gj july
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On December 03 2010 20:23 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 20:15 Geo.Rion wrote: NaDa's records got deleted for a few hours on KeSPA's site. KeSPA has said it was a computer error
AHAHAHAHHAHAHA, that's so good, made me laugh It happens on government servers as well when someone's state is altered, only to be reinstated. In notars offices in Estonia, at least. Also, it seems pretty weird that Nada was the only one, and only for a few hours. You'd think MVP, July and Boxer would have received the same treatment.
Exactly. And yet this "error" was outblown to nauseous proportions by the media who made it look like it was an intentional deletion by Kespa. So much for facts being distorted... ^^
EDIT: The above poster... wrong thread.
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On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote:
In order to develop Korea's eSports market, over the last 10 years the Progame teams invested billions of won every year. The government, civilian organization, and KeSPA has also continued to put in many costs and effort to expand the base of eSports in Korea and to enhance the status of Esports internationally.
Thus, Blizzard's argument about "License fee to have a high quality eSports broadcast" is a statement that ostracizes the broadcasting companies, the progame teams, KeSPA, the government, and all other involved organizations, while ignoring the efforts and accomplishments of these organizations in the past 10 years, and we express extreme disappointment regarding this statement.
The government is in Kespa's side, Blizzard should GG right now or sign a peace treaty. Fighting government is the most pointless thing to do as a game company.
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Like what I stated in paul sams thread I rest my case <3 Kespa .... and never mind go go go proleague ^^.
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On December 03 2010 20:09 Gautz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 19:58 ThePurist wrote:On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok. revenue =/= profit nope, (((in this case) positive)!) revenue in comparison to total outlay = profit.
I don't understand
Whatever revenue they generate is supposed to be re-invested for their organization/cause. How is it profit? Nobody owns KeSPA, there aren't shareholders, it's an NPO that represents Korean e-sports. I'm sure the Ministry of Culture audits them to check their numbers.
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I think I have found undisputable proof that Blizzard is evil. Take a look at these two photos.
Paul Sams, nice guy that buys free lunches for progamers
M. Bison, incarnation of evil in a candidate for the worst video game film of all time
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+ Show Spoiler +On December 03 2010 22:38 Teddyman wrote:I think I have found undisputable proof that Blizzard is evil. Take a look at these two photos. Paul Sams, nice guy that buys free lunches for progamersM. Bison, incarnation of evil in a candidate for the worst video game film of all time On a diff. note!! What a pic of BoxeR and his GF!! She looks and laughs a lot like Yoona(SNSD)!!
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On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok.
NPO (non-profit organisations) means that they don't aim to get rich. They are allowed to make profits to sustain their organisation.
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It definitely seems like Kespa is softening their stance. They conveniently dodged the whole IP thing though. Saying you recognize the IP rights of Blizzard is one thing. Actually having to go to them for approval, licencing, etc. (treating them like they do have the IP rights) is another.
If Kespa was seriously trying to get moving past the whole thing, they could have not charged OGN and MBC to begin with, and when asked, they could have just gone through the process of licensing like normal people. If they had pre-emptively approached Blizzard about new terms, I have no doubt the broadcasting fee would have lessened if not totally evaporated.
The communal property issue is simple. In every sporting event, the IP rights belong at least on paper, to the league, not the players, and not the teams, and not the cable company. At the end of every game i watch, there's always a "this televised broadcast is the property of the NFL(insert organization), and may not be rebroadcast without expressed written consent..." yada yada yada. Here, substitute league for the creators of the game. It is hardly enforced, just paper deterrent to companies who would like to illegally profit from the content on a large scale.
As for the interests of the players, you only have to look to every BW pro who switched over to SC2. Per Spunky's interview on giantbomb, "kespa is like communism, SC2 is like America." I don't think you have to go further than that.
I believe Kespa could have gotten a sweetheart deal for both BW and SC2 if they came to the table in the right way. Their arrogance prompted these series of actions and now they have to pay because the time frame for that deal is over. I hope everything gets worked out, but I don't see Blizzard backing down anytime soon.
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Honestly, this is starting to look a lot like Belgian Politics.
Especially this:
KeSPA and the 10 Progame teams all want the negotiations to be resolved quickly. KeSPA has put together a negotiation team and met around 10 times now and continued to advance the negotiations. Through negotiations and by narrowing the difference in opinions, there was a complete agreement with the exception of 2~3 articles, and in reality negotiations were very close to being settled. However, in this past November 25th, Blizzard and Gretech has suddenly announced that if KeSPA does not agree to Blizzard and Gretech's original demands regarding the ownership of derivative works , then negotiations regarding license fees will be impossible.
One thing I learned is that a difficult negotiation, especially one with were 2 sides have a history, should be kept OUT of the media. They negotiate behind closed doors, getting closer and closer to at least SOME compromise, right up the the point someone makes a statement in the press and the shit hits the fan again.
For the record, Belgian elections were about 6 months ago, 2 sides have been negotiating since then and every time someone makes a statement in the press, they have to start aaaaaaall over again.
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KeSPA made me giggle with this one... I mean if they yell it loud enough do they hope to get support from enough people who don't understand the basic laws and principles behind all of this?
Most of this is just repeating stuff we have already read adding: and the 10 progame teams.
I think they have 1 or 2 legitimate points but seeing the history and their previous actions, are not unreasonable.
Namely: Being Audited, and no contract security (1 yr contract)...
However when you consider that they claim to be "Non-Profit" and refuse to give realistic figures to things like : How much revenue are you generating, how much is being reinvested, and how much is tied into things like executive salaries... It's understandable that Blizzard wants to know how big your cookie jar is.. so they can establish fees that are reasonable yet won't kill eSports.
/shrug
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KESPA seems to be backing down quite a bit now that a lawsuit is on the table. Now seems like a good time to go back to the table and hammer something out before the law firm of Flash & Jaedong smacks them in the head.
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On December 03 2010 19:25 Holgerius wrote:That was a pretty good response by Kespa.
Yeah I'm acctualy kinda surprised. Funny that this "scandal" is the only BW related thing for me anymore.
I wan't a serious courtroom drama. "Our arguments are invalid? BITCH, YOUR LIFE IS INVALID"
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This is why video games cannot be any type of sport. Sport should only require the purchase of equipment and in case of many sports, you can improvise or do away with some equipment complete. For example, in the 1950 FIFA World Cup, India (having received their freedom from UK 2 years prior) was absent, because FIFA would not allow the Indian Soccer team to play without shoes. In some tropical countries, kids use coconuts instead of balls to play football (sorry, soccer) because they cannot afford to buy a ball. Buying a copy of SC2 cannot considered an equipment purchase (my argument here is that the computer system is the equipment).
Think of any athletic sport. Is there any corporation that wants their IP acknowledged? KeSPA spent 10 years making a pie and Blizzard only now wants a piece of it. Did Blizzard do anything for eSports?
On another note, have you heard of idSoftware, Valve, or Epic demand license fees from CPL/CAL? (There were many other games played in CPL/CAL)
Why didn't Blizzard demand fees from MLG and WCG?
Why is a corporation that sells copies of a game allowed to decide on all rules of said game thereby influencing any type of tournament play?
NBA and FIBA have different rules and court specifications. Likewise for MLS, FIFA, UEFA. Tournament/League organizers should be setting game rules (like requiring a factory for research or how much damage a certain unit does or takes to build and etc), not a corporation which does not have a vested interest in the tournament/league.
Blizzard, double standard much?
When SC2 came out, the layman knew two things: 1. it's a sequel 2. it's a career in South Korea (told by those that play games and know)
I don't think SC2 sales would have been at the same level if KeSPA had not been around for the last 10 years (by KeSPA, I mean the South Korean eSports scene).
If broadcasting SC2 games is considered a derivative work, then why aren't all the streamers on TL pay Blizzard a licensing fee for transmitting their IP? Sean Plott (aka Day[9]), receives over ten thousand views for his daily show 5 days a week. Imagine if Blizzard decided to charge him 1 dollar for each viewer as a license fee. 10,000 * 5 * 52 = 2,600,000USD per year. Hint: Sean, consider charging your viewers 1USD per daily.
Why are we even talking about IP? How can you have intellectual property? If you have an idea and you let it out, it's not your own anymore, it is now in public domain. You are still the author, but you can't just come in and restrict someone from implementing it. If you draw something, you produce an artwork. Are games art? Artwork is not intellectual property. Artwork is a product, how you sell it, reproduce it, etc. is up to you.
A wise man once said: Tape backups are for wimps, real men put their code on a public ftp server and let the world mirror it.
Sincerely, BearJewSlava.584
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On December 03 2010 22:53 Firereaver wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 03 2010 22:38 Teddyman wrote:I think I have found undisputable proof that Blizzard is evil. Take a look at these two photos. Paul Sams, nice guy that buys free lunches for progamersM. Bison, incarnation of evil in a candidate for the worst video game film of all time On a diff. note!! What a pic of BoxeR and his GF!! She looks and laughs a lot like Yoona(SNSD)!! How the crap can you compare BoxeRs aunt of a girlfriend to Yoona?
Boxer could do so much better, just look at Storks girlfriend.
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Braavos36362 Posts
On December 04 2010 00:14 gslavik wrote: This is why video games cannot be any type of sport. Sport should only require the purchase of equipment and in case of many sports, you can improvise or do away with some equipment complete. For example, in the 1950 FIFA World Cup, India (having received their freedom from UK 2 years prior) was absent, because FIFA would not allow the Indian Soccer team to play without shoes. In some tropical countries, kids use coconuts instead of balls to play football (sorry, soccer) because they cannot afford to buy a ball. Buying a copy of SC2 cannot considered an equipment purchase (my argument here is that the computer system is the equipment).
Think of any athletic sport. Is there any corporation that wants their IP acknowledged? KeSPA spent 10 years making a pie and Blizzard only now wants a piece of it. Did Blizzard do anything for eSports? You can't compare ESPORTS to regular sports. There's no point in trying to box it into a classification because what's going on right now is unprecedented.
On another note, have you heard of idSoftware, Valve, or Epic demand license fees from CPL/CAL? (There were many other games played in CPL/CAL)
Why didn't Blizzard demand fees from MLG and WCG? They didn't because they weren't prepared for the scene's development like Blizzard is now. I really doubt the Blizzard-MLG involves 0 licensing fees. Just because the details are not public does not mean they have no agreement.
Why is a corporation that sells copies of a game allowed to decide on all rules of said game thereby influencing any type of tournament play?
NBA and FIBA have different rules and court specifications. Likewise for MLS, FIFA, UEFA. Tournament/League organizers should be setting game rules (like requiring a factory for research or how much damage a certain unit does or takes to build and etc), not a corporation which does not have a vested interest in the tournament/league.
Blizzard, double standard much? There's no "double standard" because again, ESPORTS != sports.
When SC2 came out, the layman knew two things: 1. it's a sequel 2. it's a career in South Korea (told by those that play games and know) I don't think SC2 sales would have been at the same level if KeSPA had not been around for the last 10 years (by KeSPA, I mean the South Korean eSports scene). If broadcasting SC2 games is considered a derivative work, then why aren't all the streamers on TL pay Blizzard a licensing fee for transmitting their IP? Sean Plott (aka Day[9]), receives over ten thousand views for his daily show 5 days a week. Imagine if Blizzard decided to charge him 1 dollar for each viewer as a license fee. 10,000 * 5 * 52 = 2,600,000USD per year. Hint: Sean, consider charging your viewers 1USD per daily. This is just a ridiculous argument. IP rights start and end somewhere, and even if they encompassed Day9 dailies or streamers, Blizzard has the right to decide where and how they want to enforce those. If they feel that tournament / team organizational bodies like KeSPA or broadcast channels like OGN need to pay licensing fees but an individual caster does not, that's their right.
What you're saying is they either need to charge all or charge none, and that shouldn't be the case at all. The streamers and casters may very well be creating derivative works, but Blizzard is simply choosing not to enforce their IP rights over those right now.
Why are we even talking about IP? How can you have intellectual property? If you have an idea and you let it out, it's not your own anymore, it is now in public domain. You are still the author, but you can't just come in and restrict someone from implementing it. If you draw something, you produce an artwork. Are games art? Artwork is not intellectual property. Artwork is a product, how you sell it, reproduce it, etc. is up to you. There are lot of well-accepted reasons why IP exists and the benefits it brings. I doubt anyone feels it's reasonable to just counter Blizzard's assertion of their rights in SC2 with "why have IP rights at all?" That's nonsense.
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United States4796 Posts
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Why are we even talking about IP? How can you have intellectual property? If you have an idea and you let it out, it's not your own anymore, it is now in public domain. You are still the author, but you can't just come in and restrict someone from implementing it. If you draw something, you produce an artwork. Are games art? Artwork is not intellectual property. Artwork is a product, how you sell it, reproduce it, etc. is up to you.
I'm quoting this again, because I can't believe somebody actually said this. Oh man, so good. Thank you TL.net for your inadvertant comedy. Makes my work day so much better.
The one post I really agree with in this thread was that they shouldn't have made all this public. I feel like KESPA obviously wants "the public" on their side, hoping it would sway Blizzard or something. I feel like this would have gone alot better if it all was behind closed doors. C'est la vie.
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In my opinion, Blizzard is clearly the bad guy here. Just think about their motives. What do they possibly have to gain? Blizzard surely doesn't need the money and isn't depending on the fee to sustain their company. If anything, the fee should just be symbolic. If you look at it from KeSPA's point of view, why would they not pay a fee if it was reasonable? It would save them so much trouble, and would definitely be a lot easier than going to court, now that the option is on the table. KeSPA might have been bluffing before, but now is really not the time for that anymore. The only reason I can see for Blizzard to pursue this is because they want to shut KeSPA down, effectively the BW scene, to ease competition with SC2 and Gretech, something that generates far more money than the fee would.
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Yes, damn you Blizzard for trying to make as much revenue from a successful franchise as possible. What type of business would do such a thing?
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KeSPA says it's trying to protect it's players after that episode with NaDa? IIRC, his record was restored after numerous death threats by Korean netzians after he moved on to StarCraft 2. They had their chance to admit they were wrong back in 2007-08 with the Intel Classic tournament and all they did was screw us out of a chance to have an English broadcast by boycotting because they couldn't have their way.
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On December 04 2010 00:14 gslavik wrote:This is why video games cannot be any type of sport. Sport should only require the purchase of equipment and in case of many sports, you can improvise or do away with some equipment complete. For example, in the 1950 FIFA World Cup, India (having received their freedom from UK 2 years prior) was absent, because FIFA would not allow the Indian Soccer team to play without shoes. In some tropical countries, kids use coconuts instead of balls to play football (sorry, soccer) because they cannot afford to buy a ball. Buying a copy of SC2 cannot considered an equipment purchase (my argument here is that the computer system is the equipment). Think of any athletic sport. Is there any corporation that wants their IP acknowledged? KeSPA spent 10 years making a pie and Blizzard only now wants a piece of it. Did Blizzard do anything for eSports? On another note, have you heard of idSoftware, Valve, or Epic demand license fees from CPL/CAL? (There were many other games played in CPL/CAL) Why didn't Blizzard demand fees from MLG and WCG? Why is a corporation that sells copies of a game allowed to decide on all rules of said game thereby influencing any type of tournament play? NBA and FIBA have different rules and court specifications. Likewise for MLS, FIFA, UEFA. Tournament/League organizers should be setting game rules (like requiring a factory for research or how much damage a certain unit does or takes to build and etc), not a corporation which does not have a vested interest in the tournament/league. Blizzard, double standard much? When SC2 came out, the layman knew two things: 1. it's a sequel 2. it's a career in South Korea (told by those that play games and know) I don't think SC2 sales would have been at the same level if KeSPA had not been around for the last 10 years (by KeSPA, I mean the South Korean eSports scene). If broadcasting SC2 games is considered a derivative work, then why aren't all the streamers on TL pay Blizzard a licensing fee for transmitting their IP? Sean Plott (aka Day[9]), receives over ten thousand views for his daily show 5 days a week. Imagine if Blizzard decided to charge him 1 dollar for each viewer as a license fee. 10,000 * 5 * 52 = 2,600,000USD per year. Hint: Sean, consider charging your viewers 1USD per daily. Why are we even talking about IP? How can you have intellectual property? If you have an idea and you let it out, it's not your own anymore, it is now in public domain. You are still the author, but you can't just come in and restrict someone from implementing it. If you draw something, you produce an artwork. Are games art? Artwork is not intellectual property. Artwork is a product, how you sell it, reproduce it, etc. is up to you. A wise man once said: Tape backups are for wimps, real men put their code on a public ftp server and let the world mirror it. Sincerely, BearJewSlava.584
Ok Mr BearJewSlava, gonna keep this short 1) The lawsuit, the negotiations, heck everything is about Starcraft: Broodwar. More specifically about how 1 entity decided that they didn't need to have the rights to the product they were delivering. Not SC2. Not 2000. Not WCG. Not MLG. Not whatever.
2) IP rights are exactly what they say they are: Rights. You can choose to enforce them, you can choose to ignore em, you can sell em, you can trade em. You don't have to sell em to anyone if that's what you want... Nor do you have to agree to any price.
3) Why didn't Blizzard demand fees from MLG and WCG? You work for MLG or WCG? MLG spent over 2 years negotiating with Blizzard for the rights to have Starcraft 2 on the procircuit. (Source: SoTG episode 22 interview with one of the organizers) If you are wrong about that one, I think you are also wrong about WCG.
4) You might not agree with IP, but IP go hand in hand with the creative process. Without it there's no reason to create any high production value game if someone is just gonna stomp on your rights to make money with it after. The laws may change someday, but it's not KeSPA job to change the law, just because it's slowing them down, or because it's inconvenient or unpopular.
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Regarding common points in this thread's comments:
1. KeSPA's stance
KeSPA's stance has not changed, nor they are softening up. It has been stated repeatedly that KeSPA has no problem regarding Blizzard's IP—it's about the licensing terms. Derivative work IP, control, and Blizzard power to audit have been in debate even before Gretech got the Starcraft IP license.
2. NaDa
Blown out of proportion. Translators in this thread already explained what happened. And really, the accusations follow no logic. Why only NaDa? Boxer, July, and several other peogamers switched before NaDa.
If you can't come out with a better answer than "because KeSPA are jerks", don't bother. If you make an accusation, back it up.
3. Profit
Already responded multiple times. Unless there is evidence KeSPA breaks te rules of non-profit organizations, the argument is moot. Non-profits also need revenue to work; and non-profits aré not exclusively dependant on grants.
4. Blizzard does has the right to get compensated for their IP. However, licensing parties should also be able to challenge terms, especially if they are anticompetitive. IP law is not black and white, all or nothing, and this is a good opportunity to interpret it so that Blizzard gets compensated while KeSPA (and whatever licensor) keep the rights of derivative works (this is a good thing). As KeSPA is the first organization that managed to make a real eSport organization, this case is what will set precedence for future rulings. So this will affect not only KeSPA, but also Gretech and whoever wants to make any professional environment in the future. In a way, Gretech wins long-term if KeSPA wins, especially if in the future they want to branch out or go independent from Blizzard.
I am not saying Blizzard should not get compensated. Ideally, I think it should be a share of the revenue proportional to the total revenue. I don't even think Gretech could pay their own license fees per tournament if they had to.
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What I don't get is why Gretech doesn't ask for a percentage of the net? that's what I would do to ensure things would go smoothly, but then again I am just an armchair quarterback in this.
But seriously, does Gretech really expect to get more money out of fighting Kespa than they could get out of a percentage deal?
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United States7483 Posts
NPO (non-profit organisations) means that they don't aim to get rich. They are allowed to make profits to sustain their organisation.
Incorrect. What a Non-profit organization literally means is that any and all profits (positive difference in revenue and costs) must go directly back into the organization. However, that is past the point of sustainability, as you merely must break even to sustain. Profits for an NPO go into expansion and growth.
What KeSPA said was that they run smaller for profit companies on the side to generate sufficient revenue in order to break even with regards to the NPO portion, as otherwise they would operate at a cost. This is legal in the United States and done frequently, I assume it's legal in Korea.
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dam this thing is so complicated. hopefully they can find a common ground to settle on. they should just play for it in a game of starcraft lol.
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The NFL is a non-profit entity, too. I'm pretty sure MLB is a non-profit as well. Being an NPO means nothing and it's not an excuse to dodge IP rights. I could claim that I acknowledge the IP rights of the artists whenever I download songs from MIRC, too.
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On December 04 2010 00:14 gslavik wrote:This is why video games cannot be any type of sport. Sport should only require the purchase of equipment and in case of many sports, you can improvise or do away with some equipment complete. For example, in the 1950 FIFA World Cup, India (having received their freedom from UK 2 years prior) was absent, because FIFA would not allow the Indian Soccer team to play without shoes. In some tropical countries, kids use coconuts instead of balls to play football (sorry, soccer) because they cannot afford to buy a ball. Buying a copy of SC2 cannot considered an equipment purchase (my argument here is that the computer system is the equipment). Think of any athletic sport. Is there any corporation that wants their IP acknowledged? KeSPA spent 10 years making a pie and Blizzard only now wants a piece of it. Did Blizzard do anything for eSports? On another note, have you heard of idSoftware, Valve, or Epic demand license fees from CPL/CAL? (There were many other games played in CPL/CAL) Why didn't Blizzard demand fees from MLG and WCG? Why is a corporation that sells copies of a game allowed to decide on all rules of said game thereby influencing any type of tournament play? NBA and FIBA have different rules and court specifications. Likewise for MLS, FIFA, UEFA. Tournament/League organizers should be setting game rules (like requiring a factory for research or how much damage a certain unit does or takes to build and etc), not a corporation which does not have a vested interest in the tournament/league. Blizzard, double standard much? When SC2 came out, the layman knew two things: 1. it's a sequel 2. it's a career in South Korea (told by those that play games and know) I don't think SC2 sales would have been at the same level if KeSPA had not been around for the last 10 years (by KeSPA, I mean the South Korean eSports scene). If broadcasting SC2 games is considered a derivative work, then why aren't all the streamers on TL pay Blizzard a licensing fee for transmitting their IP? Sean Plott (aka Day[9]), receives over ten thousand views for his daily show 5 days a week. Imagine if Blizzard decided to charge him 1 dollar for each viewer as a license fee. 10,000 * 5 * 52 = 2,600,000USD per year. Hint: Sean, consider charging your viewers 1USD per daily. Why are we even talking about IP? How can you have intellectual property? If you have an idea and you let it out, it's not your own anymore, it is now in public domain. You are still the author, but you can't just come in and restrict someone from implementing it. If you draw something, you produce an artwork. Are games art? Artwork is not intellectual property. Artwork is a product, how you sell it, reproduce it, etc. is up to you. A wise man once said: Tape backups are for wimps, real men put their code on a public ftp server and let the world mirror it. Sincerely, BearJewSlava.584
can we please stop comparing everything in starcraft to normal sports? It's like comparing apples and oranges, sure they're both fruits but not everything is comparable between them.
Also as much as I enjoy the day9 dailies, $1 per show is not sustainable at all. You have people having a bitch fest regarding paying $15 for 40 hours of content for the GSL so I doubt people would pay $1 per hour for the daily. To get a idea of how ridiculous your numbers are, $2.6 million per year is 10 times the amount Blizzard wants for the broadcasting fees for BW ($88k * 3 seasons = $264k).
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thanks for the translation!
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On December 04 2010 01:54 VManOfMana wrote: Regarding common points in this thread's comments:
1. KeSPA's stance
KeSPA's stance has not changed, nor they are softening up. It has been stated repeatedly that KeSPA has no problem regarding Blizzard's IP—it's about the licensing terms. Derivative work IP, control, and Blizzard power to audit have been in debate even before Gretech got the Starcraft IP license.
2. NaDa
Blown out of proportion. Translators in this thread already explained what happened. And really, the accusations follow no logic. Why only NaDa? Boxer, July, and several other peogamers switched before NaDa.
If you can't come out with a better answer than "because KeSPA are jerks", don't bother. If you make an accusation, back it up.
3. Profit
Already responded multiple times. Unless there is evidence KeSPA breaks te rules of non-profit organizations, the argument is moot. Non-profits also need revenue to work; and non-profits aré not exclusively dependant on grants.
4. Blizzard does has the right to get compensated for their IP. However, licensing parties should also be able to challenge terms, especially if they are anticompetitive. IP law is not black and white, all or nothing, and this is a good opportunity to interpret it so that Blizzard gets compensated while KeSPA (and whatever licensor) keep the rights of derivative works (this is a good thing). As KeSPA is the first organization that managed to make a real eSport organization, this case is what will set precedence for future rulings. So this will affect not only KeSPA, but also Gretech and whoever wants to make any professional environment in the future. In a way, Gretech wins long-term if KeSPA wins, especially if in the future they want to branch out or go independent from Blizzard.
I am not saying Blizzard should not get compensated. Ideally, I think it should be a share of the revenue proportional to the total revenue. I don't even think Gretech could pay their own license fees per tournament if they had to.
When KeSPA formed, they began to request broadcasting fees from the gaming channels to fund which was something Blizzard didn't like but they tolerated. When GOMTV wanted to start their own league and help bring in the foreign base, they went to Blizzard Entertainment directly for permission to use StarCraft in televised matches (something KeSPA did not do). Blizzard was more than willing to allow GOMTV to do that. About a season or two into these Intel Classic leagues, KeSPA began to demand payment from GOMTV for broadcasting StarCraft leagues without their permission. GOMTV refused on the grounds that they had direct permission from the manufacture of the game. As a result, KeSPA made the games not count for the 3rd season. When time for the 4th season to come, KeSPA began threatening players to terminate their licenses if they continued participating in GOM's leagues (why the 4th season never happened). This really pissed of Blizzard which is why they propose such harsh conditions for them (as they still haven't changed their view on this incident).
As for the NaDa case, what happened was KeSPA wanted to delete the records for NaDa which many netzians interpreted as doing the same as the purging of SaviOr's records (which erased all of his awards) when he was banned. Whether this was the case or not we'll never know but it sparked a huge uproar nonetheless and KeSPA restored the records with the ones that the TV stations keep and claimed it was a mistake on the server (the details are extremely sketchy on that reasoning and many don't trust KeSPA after their release of certain reasons where people know they're in the wrong one too many times). They do put pressure on the media that support KeSPA to push out articles that don't praise any of those old progamers (and in some cases view them as traitors to Brood War).
So yeah...if KeSPA is going to act like jerks then I will call them jerks. They push their players around like nobodies business which is a bit unfair to them.
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thanks for translating it
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All of that mouth flapping and not one good rebuttal to the accusation that they're using Blzzard's IP without permission. KeSpA are a bunch of lying worms.
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This doesn't look good for KeSPA... I've read their response and nothing they said was constructive. And its clearly shown they diverted some common logic in their response.
Like how paul sams said that fees can be adjusted after the entry qualification, which is not as big as 1.7billion in the bulk. So you can't just say, oh, x3, its bigger.
And who charges for 3 years at a time? Thats a long time, and quality can drastically change if not checked annually.
KeSPA also completely turned their head around for the nada-incident. They did not admit what thousands of people witness and said it didn't happen? How crazy is that?
The sum of the response is, e-sports grew for 10 years and everything should be their's. =.= and I can't believe they compared e-sports, to sports. lol I thought we were pass that already.
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"But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice."
I call bullshit, "player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go"
if it was only KeSPA and they had a specific/unique contract to that *one* player, then he _doesn't have a choice_ it's "don't play as a professional or play with us" (before GOMtv + SC2).
there isn't a "heres also another contract with different terms that you *can* accept"
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There was an interview with day9 a while back where he made a supposition that the requirement to pay for rights to Starcraft was all because Blizzard disagreed with KeSPA's operating principles. While this may be impossible to ever prove I have a feeling that this is part of the reason.
Also, from an interview with a Blizzard representitive http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=173542
* As for the rights of the players, we first, need the freedom. Existing players under KeSPA, due to their contract, they can't participate in other leagues. We believe that we can give the progamers the chance to freely choose. If progamers so wish, they should be allowed to participate in any other leagues. In the past, KeSPA did not give the progamers any freedom. Right now, if the progamers wish so, they can return to StarCraft 1 after playing SC 2. The progamers need to have the freedom to choose what they want to play.
We can also see what can happen when Blizzard does not participate as a partner in e-sports that makes use of Blizzard games. I've seen the match fixing scandal, and I've also seen how Lee Yun-Yeol (NaDa) had his record and his achievements completely nullified just because he chose to play a game he wanted to play. This is obviously not fair. So, that is why we are trying hard to protect our IP rights. We want to grow e-sports and progamers through right methods. I think it's also important to point out that the people who stream themselves playing Starcraft do not earn money by doing so. It appears that Blizzard is ok with use of their IP for making youtube videos and generally any content that gives them free advertising, yet crack down hard on anyone who makes money, such as the person famously sued for making a levelling guide for WoW.
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thx milkis, as always
really really trying not to take sides heres, but im leaning toward kespa's now because it seems they were so close to finishing negociations (with the exception of the $$$ fees), then bliz just shut down and suddenly wants 100% instead of 50/50? Then a law suit? Kespa's questioning of whether they really want to see a successful end to negociations is valid IMO.
Bias aside, I wish they could just play nice
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It's quite silly to say that a contract isn't restricting the freedoms of players. They don't get to play unless they are under a contract. They can do that in the GSL.
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On December 04 2010 03:44 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +"But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice." I call bullshit, "player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go" if it was only KeSPA and they had a specific/unique contract to that *one* player, then he _doesn't have a choice_ it's "don't play as a professional or play with us" (before GOMtv + SC2). there isn't a "heres also another contract with different terms that you *can* accept"
Seriously in what part of the world you sign a contract and then you got to work only for that organization (Pro-team)?, around all the world people just get paid for one company and work for whatever company they want or if they will , they just can sit at home and do nothing.
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Thank you so much for the translation, Milkis. <3
I like KeSPA's calm and obliging tone in this statement. I really hope this issue will be resolved soon!
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"developed" esports? more like profited from. i like how they put their image forward as some caring nanny that nursed professional starcraft into existence.
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On December 04 2010 03:03 Archduke wrote: All of that mouth flapping and not one good rebuttal to the accusation that they're using Blzzard's IP without permission. KeSpA are a bunch of lying worms.
And I wonder why mods don't ban this guy for such an uneducated post in a serious thread. I'm sure if I post "Blizzard are a bunch of lying worms" I will get permanent ban in 5 mins.
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Profits for an NPO go into expansion and growth.
In theory, in reality a lot of profits for large NPO's go into paying high salaries for CEO's etc. While most of their work force is volunteer and upaid. Red Cross is a perefect example of this where a large majority of donated money doesn't go to help anyone, it goes to pay salaries of people who never steep foot out of an office building...or to pay for commericals asking for more money.
Kespa started out largely for the players but it's well known over time kespa advocated less and less for players and more and more for kespa's control of players. A lot of kespa's constraints on players are absolutely ridiculous, the reason kespa is threatend by what blizzard is doing here is because they are about to lose control of the starcraft esport in korea to the group being put together being supported by blizzard, players, and gom.
If they want to broadcast and 'profit' from blizzards product they should pay blizzard to do it, it's no different then ABC, NBC, FOX, paying the NFL to broadcast their games to make commerical profit off them.
Crying were a NPO is a load, the top people in kespa make nice comfy salaries to just oversee starcraft and they are afraid they are going to lose their bank roll, or expose their corruption by agreeing to blizzards terms.
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If Blizzard is behind the new lame OSL group selection process then I hate them with all my heart.
If not then DON'T TOUCH MY STARCRAFT :<
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Blizzard: WE WANT INTERNET MONAY! Friend Kespa: Were not your friend, Buddy Blizzard: Were not your buddy, Guy Kespa, Were not your guy, Friend.
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its good to see a softening of language on both sides, though Kespa has in this regard stepped up their game the most. Hopefully with this issue so much in the public eye, both sides will continue to soften their stance and find an amicable agreement.
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nothing new.
2 sides arguing that they are right when in reality, both are greedy and want more power and influnce over a potential industry.
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I just think its stupid how Blizzard is after Kespa... There isn't that much money to be made from them, so I question their motives in this situation. Also, Blizzard is apart of a multi-BILLION dollar corporation... With that being said, 1.7 billion won is only roughly 1.5 million USD.. Are they really traveling to Korea, starting all of this, over that small amount of money?
I just can't help but think that Blizzard is out of line in this situation. Kespa gives Blizzard free promotion of their product...
They need to keep their greasy, money loving fingers out of Korea. If they really wanted to help e-Sports develop into something, then situations like this wouldn't exist. There are bigger fish to fry and by doing this they are dumping water on a fire that doesn't need to be extinguished.
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On December 04 2010 06:33 VPC wrote: I just think its stupid how Blizzard is after Kespa... There isn't that much money to be made from them, so I question their motives in this situation. Also, Blizzard is apart of a multi-BILLION dollar corporation... With that being said, 1.7 billion won is only roughly 1.5 million USD.. Are they really traveling to Korea, starting all of this, over that small amount of money?
I just can't help but think that Blizzard is out of line in this situation. Kespa gives Blizzard free promotion of their product...
They need to keep their greasy, money loving fingers out of Korea. If they really wanted to help e-Sports develop into something, then situations like this wouldn't exist. There are bigger fish to fry and by doing this they are dumping water on a fire that doesn't need to be extinguished.
Blizzard is trying to develop Starcraft 2, which Kespa is fully against. Like you said there's no money in Brood War for Blizzard, but there is in their new game...
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The part when KeSPA mentioned protecting players' rights and expanding esport to other countries, I lol'ed.
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On December 04 2010 06:52 mrdx wrote: The part when KeSPA mentioned protecting players' rights and expanding esport to other countries, I lol'ed. They are expanding... OSL finals in China, STX Masters in China, IEF..
China is the only other country in the world with any decent sized BW community left standing, what more do you want?
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In the battle of two greedy corporations (KeSPA and Blizzard), two broadcasting companies suffer greatly. OGN took the first step into making what we know as eSports today (may be you can argue that it was Tooniverse). OGN refined the formats for the tournaments for both individual league and team league. MBCgame came on couple years later, but it created this nice rivalry, which really only help the scene as they were trying to create more and better contents. When pie became big enough, big corporations started to sponsor teams and players, signing contracts with players. OGN and MBCgame had to found and sponsor their own teams for the proleague just so that they can be part of the owner's group and have a say in the matter. Ultimately, proleague which was first started by OGN, was taken away by KeSPA and two broadcasting companies were forced to pay for the broadcasting rights. In order for their leagues to function, they have to oblige to KeSPA since KeSPA owns the players via contracts. Now, Blizzard comes in and all this mess happened. I'm fine with all this since I really hated KeSPA ever since they asked for the broadcasting rights. What I really feel sorry about is that two broadcasting companies were they first ones to take hit. They were the ones who have lawsuit in their hands. If they could, they would've made a deal with Blizzard, but I believe they really can't because of control KeSPA has over the players. As much as I hate KeSPA, I think Blizzard getting everything they want will only hurt the eSports. I can't see any big companies willing to sponsor teams and players and provide all the nice supports BW players get today if KeSPA were to break down. Sure SC2 teams are getting sponsored, but they aren't anywhere near the level of BW, and I remember how the scene was in the early days of BW and a lot of players and teams couldn't support themselves. Maybe, SC2 scene will get big enough to be at the level BW is today, and it might have better structure than this KeSPA shenanigans (I really hope there will be players union to negotiate things with owners group, since players have basically no rights as of now, in BW and SC2), but I feel like there is an easier path of transition, and for now, maintaining KeSPA and the current BW scene is much smoother in my opinion. But then again, complete dismantling of BW scene may be more painful but quicker way to build a healthier eSports.
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On December 04 2010 06:52 mrdx wrote: The part when KeSPA mentioned protecting players' rights and expanding esport to other countries, I lol'ed. The part when Blizzard mentioned "Quality broadcasters", I lol'ed.
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Riddle me this:
If Blizzard is this power hungry company, why didn't it charge the same fees from GOMTV wanted to host the TG-Sambo Intel Classic Leagues for Brood War? If they paid any sort of fee at all, it was insignificant to mention and they offered VODs for those completely free even to this date which is something they don't do for the GSL leagues today. Even then it's Gretech that's charging the money for this service, not Blizzard. I would assume they're getting a good chunk of money from it as well.
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On December 04 2010 07:25 Neo7 wrote: Riddle me this:
If Blizzard is this power hungry company, why didn't it charge the same fees from GOMTV wanted to host the TG-Sambo Intel Classic Leagues for Brood War? If they paid any sort of fee at all, it was insignificant to mention and they offered VODs for those completely free even to this date which is something they don't do for the GSL leagues today. Even then it's Gretech that's charging the money for this service, not Blizzard. I would assume they're getting a good chunk of money from it as well.
most people take a stand without being fully informed of the facts, or just ignore the inconvenient facts and take a side while hating the others just for the sake of hating someone, and there is also a group of "ZOMG BLIZZ GONNA KILL BW SCENE QQQQQQ" phobic people that paints blizzard as the devil of e-sport, just because they fear that the status quo of their beloved sport is threaten without thinking straight...
i'd like to see them make the statement about "protecting their players right" bullshit with a straight face..
as for me, i'm tired of these barrage of statement/coutner-statements propaganda's, too many bullshit has been spewed and i can't be bothered to sift though it to see who's in the right, just stfu and settle it in the court already, since its obvious the 2 party aren't willing to compromise and come to an agreement... save everyone the time and trouble...
edit: Oh crap, there goes my reaver post lol...
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
kespa makes me laugh every time
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On December 04 2010 06:33 VPC wrote: I just think its stupid how Blizzard is after Kespa... There isn't that much money to be made from them, so I question their motives in this situation. Also, Blizzard is apart of a multi-BILLION dollar corporation... With that being said, 1.7 billion won is only roughly 1.5 million USD.. Are they really traveling to Korea, starting all of this, over that small amount of money?
I just can't help but think that Blizzard is out of line in this situation. Kespa gives Blizzard free promotion of their product...
They need to keep their greasy, money loving fingers out of Korea. If they really wanted to help e-Sports develop into something, then situations like this wouldn't exist. There are bigger fish to fry and by doing this they are dumping water on a fire that doesn't need to be extinguished.
Everything Kespa said is an outright lie with the exception of their potential economic troubles. They have always been dubious liars who will cut anyone's throat as long as it helps them. Now they have to face the consequences of their piratical business practices. Walk the plank Captain Kespa.
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Firstly, thanks to Milkis for the translation. Might I also suggest that OPs on the Gretech_v_KeSPA subject be headlined by a link to the KeSPA liquipedia article, just to avoid unnecessary discussions on the nature of KeSPA later on. Although that might need some expanding, now that I look at it.
The thing that worries me the most about the distribution of IP rights is its effect on the VODs, streams and casters. While OGN/MBC have had no gripes with these (for as far as I can remember), the same can not be said of Gretech. They have been highly protective of their SC2 broadcasts (reasonable and expected), but IIRC (and someone please correct me, if not), one or more of the claims that ultimately took down John747 were over the GOMTV MSLs, to which I don't even think they should have rights (sponsors generally don't, do they?). I'm seriously concerned what might happen if Blizzard decide to enforce their share or monetise the broadcasting of Korean BW to the foreign community. OGN/MBC certainly wouln't care a whit over the well-being of their foreign viewership (except maybe China?), so they'll go with whatever Blizzard wants. A troubling possibility.
On another note, I like how KeSPA actually went over Sams's statement point-for-point, as opposed to the usual election-campaign-type regurgetated monologue. Though I did cringe when they were commenting on player rights and contracts. Last I checked, the free agency was still a mess.
And on a completely unrelated note, @gslavik: Lol, is that your Bnet handle?! Nothing against it, but I thought Blizzard would have banned it while you were still typing it in.
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On December 04 2010 07:57 Rekrul wrote: kespa makes me laugh every time Do Koreans believe their BS or just fanboy foreigners?
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In a nutshell: Blizzard wants money, Kespa wants money, they are still unable to agree on how much money each should get.
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On December 04 2010 08:21 Milkis wrote:one can easily construct such a biased list for any given company, i wouldn't trust that thread at all I'd like to see a list of why KesPA is good then
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All I want to say is I'm damn glad the original creators of football, baseball, hockey, gymnastics, track and field, etc. aren't living in today's world. What a horrible place it would be.
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On December 04 2010 06:33 VPC wrote: I just think its stupid how Blizzard is after Kespa... There isn't that much money to be made from them, so I question their motives in this situation. Also, Blizzard is apart of a multi-BILLION dollar corporation... With that being said, 1.7 billion won is only roughly 1.5 million USD.. Are they really traveling to Korea, starting all of this, over that small amount of money?
This obviously isn't about the money they can earn directly from this. It's about setting a precedence. If they let Kespa make money from Blizzard's IP it will be much harder to stop the next guy from doing so. If that becomes the legal standard no games will be made and maintained for eSports anymore, since anyone can take it away. Obviously this is the extreme of what could result from this, but that's basically what it is about.
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On December 04 2010 08:05 JayDee_ wrote:Do Koreans believe their BS or just fanboy foreigners? Blizzards PR releases regarding this have had a far higher % of bullshit than the Kespa ones. The only major lie in this is about player rights.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies
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On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies
It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not.
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On December 04 2010 09:17 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not. You're arguing with Rekrul, who is probably the foreigner with the best knowledge of the inner workings of the Korean SC scene. From his post on the new team organization in SC2, you can see that Kespa is not as friendly or non-profit as they'd like people to believe. It's a really good read, and a good contrast to Kespa's comments here. It shows that they're more concerned with recouping money in addition to their advertising than with "growing esports" or "player rights."
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On December 04 2010 08:53 Scarecrow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 08:05 JayDee_ wrote:On December 04 2010 07:57 Rekrul wrote: kespa makes me laugh every time Do Koreans believe their BS or just fanboy foreigners? Blizzards PR releases regarding this have had a far higher % of bullshit than the Kespa ones. The only major lie in this is about player rights. Kespa has never legally respected Blizzards IP rights. If they did, negotiations would have been over years ago. They tried to use the "Communal Property" theory a long time ago when Blizzard started questioning what they were doing selling broadcasting rights for BW. It was crystal clear what Kespa meant by the statement. I guess the Nada debacle is up for debate, but doesn't it seem a little too coincidental that his records were deleted soon after he switched to SC2? What are the odds of that timing? Astronomical.
Obviously this will only be settled in court, so I guess we have a lot of time to wait.
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On December 04 2010 09:24 Kishkumen wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:17 Quarz wrote:On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not. You're arguing with Rekrul, who is probably the foreigner with the best knowledge of the inner workings of the Korean SC scene. From his post on the new team organization in SC2, you can see that Kespa is not as friendly or non-profit as they'd like people to believe. It's a really good read, and a good contrast to Kespa's comments here. It shows that they're more concerned with recouping money in addition to their advertising than with "growing esports" or "player rights."
I dont say "non-profit=friendly". I only say Kespa is fomal non-profit Organisation. No with this oneliner he has nothing to add. It is wrong.
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I have always had the impression that KeSPA have been making to many rules, and desisions to stay in control of possible developement in different arenas, that can "undermine" them. I have seen alot of controversy the last ten years. KeSPA being a non-profit .org is just so wrong. As far as I can see, they have i.ex: "made money on renting out another mans appartement that they already rent themselves for a cheaper buck".
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Estonia4504 Posts
On December 04 2010 09:34 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 08:53 Scarecrow wrote:On December 04 2010 08:05 JayDee_ wrote:On December 04 2010 07:57 Rekrul wrote: kespa makes me laugh every time Do Koreans believe their BS or just fanboy foreigners? Blizzards PR releases regarding this have had a far higher % of bullshit than the Kespa ones. The only major lie in this is about player rights. I guess the Nada debacle is up for debate, but doesn't it seem a little too coincidental that his records were deleted soon after he switched to SC2? What are the odds of that timing? Astronomical. The records are stored on computer networks. Files are altered during state switches, certain files are deleted. As I've posted earlier this thread, this HAPPENS. All the time. And the odds of that timing are really high, considering noone probably touches the records at any other time.
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On December 04 2010 09:41 mustaju wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:34 JayDee_ wrote:On December 04 2010 08:53 Scarecrow wrote:On December 04 2010 08:05 JayDee_ wrote:On December 04 2010 07:57 Rekrul wrote: kespa makes me laugh every time Do Koreans believe their BS or just fanboy foreigners? Blizzards PR releases regarding this have had a far higher % of bullshit than the Kespa ones. The only major lie in this is about player rights. I guess the Nada debacle is up for debate, but doesn't it seem a little too coincidental that his records were deleted soon after he switched to SC2? What are the odds of that timing? Astronomical. The records are stored on computer networks. Files are altered during state switches, certain files are deleted. As I've posted earlier this thread, this HAPPENS. All the time. And the odds of that timing are really high, considering noone probably touches the records at any other time. Fair enough. It's still a suspect error at the very least.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
On December 04 2010 09:17 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not.
oh
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On December 04 2010 09:17 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not. As someone else pointed out, the NFL and NHL are also non-profit companies. Guess what they do with their money? Reinvest it, pay salaries, advertising, etc exactly the same as KeSPA. NPO doesn't mean shit.
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Im not really sure whose side to be on here, but if Blizzard shuts down e-sports in Korea because of this BS, im going to stop playing Blizzard games forever. Period. No questions.
We already have leagues like CAL going away. E-sports is a new tough market, and intimidating companies is only going to hurt it more.
We need more E-sports companies rising from the shadows. We shouldnt be creating a situation for them that scares them from even starting up.
This is also a stupid move company wise, as having companies broadcast your game for free over a TV network is like free advertising 24/7.
My guess is that a lot of people are pirating the game in South Korea, and Blizzard is taking it out on Kespa. Whatever the case, i hope Blizzard knows what its doing and doesnt go too far.
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On December 04 2010 09:58 Rekrul wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:17 Quarz wrote:On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not. oh oh. lets see if we both get a ban i doubt it.
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On December 04 2010 10:17 Cryosin wrote: Im not really sure whose side to be on here, but if Blizzard shuts down e-sports in Korea because of this BS, im going to stop playing Blizzard games forever. Period. No questions.
We already have leagues like CAL going away. E-sports is a new tough market, and intimidating companies is only going to hurt it more.
We need more E-sports companies rising from the shadows. We shouldnt be creating a situation for them that scares them from even starting up.
This is also a stupid move company wise, as having companies broadcast your game for free over a TV network is like free advertising 24/7.
My guess is that a lot of people are pirating the game in South Korea, and Blizzard is taking it out on Kespa. Whatever the case, i hope Blizzard knows what its doing and doesnt go too far.
We need more E-sports companies rising from the shadows. gomTV
We shouldnt be creating a situation for them that scares them from even starting up. averatec intel classic season 3
This is also a stupid move company wise, as having companies broadcast your game for free over a TV network is like stealing 24/7.
My guess is that a lot of people are pirating the game in South Korea, and this has nothing to do with anything.
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I think it is very important that it is possible for all companies to be able to provide a sc2-broadcast product if they give Blizzard a good enough reflection of the game, set by standard quality criterias. Competition is very important for increase of quality.
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On December 04 2010 09:34 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 08:53 Scarecrow wrote:On December 04 2010 08:05 JayDee_ wrote:On December 04 2010 07:57 Rekrul wrote: kespa makes me laugh every time Do Koreans believe their BS or just fanboy foreigners? Blizzards PR releases regarding this have had a far higher % of bullshit than the Kespa ones. The only major lie in this is about player rights. Kespa has never legally respected Blizzards IP rights. If they did, negotiations would have been over years ago. They tried to use the "Communal Property" theory a long time ago when Blizzard started questioning what they were doing selling broadcasting rights for BW. It was crystal clear what Kespa meant by the statement.
This has been addressed over and over. KeSPA respects Blizzard's IP, but not under the definition and terms Blizzard wants to impose. They are willing to pay for using Starcraft, but any tournament-sponsoring organization would be insane to accept Blizzard's terms, which encompasses all kind of derived work. Not even Gretech; they just happen to be exempt because they do not need to negotiate IP licensing with themselves.
Once you digest the point of view that Starcraft != The Actual Matches (and the creative work involved to produce them), the "communal" comment is not as crystal clear.
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this feels like middle school drama.
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Until Blizzard gets off their high horse on other issues I hope they get the kick in the nuts they deserve.
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All the corporate behavior is a result of the Activision take over imo. Activison have no experience with serious gaming, and have really underestimated the community. They treat Sc2 like some x-box game.
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No real news, I guess they'll have to settle this in court :\
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so kespa is fine when they can claim ownership and charge other people for using starcraft, but when blizzard does it to kespa it's suddenly wrong and immoral to do...
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This thread is very one sided... and I don't agree with what Kespa is doing and will not accept them for things such as deleting Nada's stats due to a "computer error". Seriously, what are the coincidences it was an accident that happened to happen with Nada's SC2 activity? I know you are arguing a point so ofc it is one sided, but I don't agree with Kespa.
There are reasons/explanations for the higher charge that Blizzard/Gom requires and some of the other stuff presented here to be unfair to Kespa in the other thread that was started, titled something about clearing misconceptions between Blizzard/Gretech vs Kespa/OGN/MBC.
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On December 04 2010 09:17 Quarz wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not.
What Rekrul I'm guessing is laughing at... and It makes me giggle a little too I guess. Is that stating you are non-profit doesn't really mean all that much if you are hiding funds or paying high end executives ridiculous salaries you refuse to disclose. (Major point of contention that KeSPA doesn't want to let go... Audit... wonder why, hehe)
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On December 04 2010 13:35 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: This thread is very one sided... and I don't agree with what Kespa is doing and will not accept them for things such as deleting Nada's stats due to a "computer error". Seriously, what are the coincidences it was an accident that happened to happen with Nada's SC2 activity? I know you are arguing a point so ofc it is one sided, but I don't agree with Kespa.
There are reasons/explanations for the higher charge that Blizzard/Gom requires and some of the other stuff presented here to be unfair to Kespa in the other thread that was started, titled something about clearing misconceptions between Blizzard/Gretech vs Kespa/OGN/MBC.
Yeah no crap, a random computer error that coincidentally happens when he says hes going to play SC2. And a few hours of a huge angry response from fans the "error" luckily was fixed.
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srsly ur dumb? sry. but when else should this happen? they only touch this stats when he wins something and when they have 2 change the status. so now ask urself why only nada and not the other pros? give me just 1 good reason for that. personal hate for nada? highly doubt it.
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5003 Posts
On December 04 2010 14:32 rasers wrote: srsly ur dumb? sry. but when else should this happen? they only touch this stats when he wins something and when they have 2 change the status. so now ask urself why only nada and not the other pros? give me just 1 good reason for that. personal hate for nada? highly doubt it.
i can tell you why nada and not the other pros though
the other pros are still registered on kespa's website :O
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I readily admit not having the best grasp on all the aspects of this back-and-forth struggle, but this part here:
Blizzard has commented that KeSPA and the Progame teams restrict the freedom of the players, and that Blizzard would renovate this system by raising eSports and the players in the proper way.
But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice. ...it reminds me of the drama and frustrations surrounding Jaedong's departure from and return to Oz. Kespa didn't seem to live up to those words then, though that was a complicated affair as well.
I don't necessarily agree with all that Blizzard is doing, but Kespa does seem to be far worse...
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Yeah, I know it's not as bad as before, but it still seems inadequate. These are still mostly kids, and I never really bought the idea that their team acts as their agent.
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Kespa a non profit organization? You mean like the time they licensed SCBW tv rights for redic. ammounts of $
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United States4053 Posts
On December 04 2010 15:16 FindingPride wrote: Kespa a non profit organization? You mean like the time they licensed SCBW tv rights for redic. ammounts of $ Getting money =/= profits
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On December 04 2010 04:38 ShaperofDreams wrote: "developed" esports? more like profited from. i like how they put their image forward as some caring nanny that nursed professional starcraft into existence.
I like how you conveniently ignore the fact that BW esports wouldn't exist without Kespa building it up. Honestly there are no shareholders and no dividends going out.
The CEO salary thing is just a dumb assumption that people have made in response to the fact that there are no profits funneling out of this organization.
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United States4053 Posts
On December 04 2010 14:44 Catalyst wrote:I readily admit not having the best grasp on all the aspects of this back-and-forth struggle, but this part here: Show nested quote +Blizzard has commented that KeSPA and the Progame teams restrict the freedom of the players, and that Blizzard would renovate this system by raising eSports and the players in the proper way.
But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice. ...it reminds me of the drama and frustrations surrounding Jaedong's departure from and return to Oz. Kespa didn't seem to live up to those words then, though that was a complicated affair as well. I don't necessarily agree with all that Blizzard is doing, but Kespa does seem to be far worse... from the thread you linked:
On August 28 2009 16:24 DanceCommander wrote:Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote: Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? No, but its just sad You don't just retire after winning an OSL... Apparently, another zerg begs to differ.
ON topic: I think we need to compile a thread of COLD, HARD FACTS + Explanations about the various facets of the IP Rights case. There's too likely a chance that misinformation will spread in these threads (e.g. someone posting that KeSPA doesn't allow its players to play SC2 back on Pg. 2). And there are people who don't know the difference between sales, revenue, and profits... we just need a central bank of information to consult with regards to this case. It'll make the discussions so much better, IMO. I'll make it if I find time.
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On December 04 2010 13:45 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 09:17 Quarz wrote:On December 04 2010 09:06 Rekrul wrote: the whole 'we are a non profit organization' thing makes me LOL every time
when kespa is merely a collaboration of all the big companies It doesnt matter if it is a collaboration of big copanies. It only matter what they do with the money they earn. So i dont know why you laugh. Is Kespa a normal company that make profit or not. What Rekrul I'm guessing is laughing at... and It makes me giggle a little too I guess. Is that stating you are non-profit doesn't really mean all that much if you are hiding funds or paying high end executives ridiculous salaries you refuse to disclose. (Major point of contention that KeSPA doesn't want to let go... Audit... wonder why, hehe)
Man seroisly. FIFA and in other NPOs(NFL,NBA etc.) thats only mean, this organisation exists for es specific goal. FIFA for football and KESPA for BW. It is really your problem, if you think NPO=Good company. Everybody knows how corrupt those organizations are. FIFA for example earns several hundred Millions and they are still NPO. So, why are your giggling?
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It is indeed complicated. All the news that came out just making me confused even-more. Just wanted to ask the person who really know, are they both money hungry and fight for the money or is there a good side and bad side in this?
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KeSPA does allow their players to play SC2. i.e. WeMadeFox Moon.
Sadly, WC3 players have more freedom than SC1 players for some reason :p
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Kespa is just pissed off that Blizzard wants to take all the e-sport and not give them a single share for doing the job for 10 years and Kespa also thinks that if GOMTV owns everything e-sport "the way koreans know it" will go to hell. And what I mean by this is in Korea the pro"LEAGUES" have a different format of the e-sport that is held in Europe or North América were there aren't huge tournaments that involves clans playing against each other like a soccer team.
E-sport to Blizzard, IN MY HUMBLE OPINION!, is more like a "Wimbledon tournament" instead of a "Champions League" if you guys understand the difference.
GOMTV has no freaking plans of leading some sort of League since they seem very focused on 1v1. It seems that they do some Clanwars and stuff but it's not like a LEAGUE.
If I heard right at the google tech lab were they talk about SC2, HDHusky talks about this. Tournaments are good, but leagues are very good also. Soccer isn't only about leagues, it's also about some tournaments like the world cup, european cup, whatever cup.
What makes soccer so viewable around the globe and with a huge variety of spectators from all over the world ? It's not the national team. It's the leagues inside their own country. A chilean loves a chilean team but also likes an european team. But of course it will cheer for Chile in the worldcup but he will still argue that the goalkeepr of his team is way better and should be in the Chilean team and blablablablalbalba.
That doesn't happen in golf as much as it happen in soccer/basquetball/rugby/(NFL No because it's only in the US and I'm talking about worldwide mass of viewers).
So treating e-sport as soccer means making leagues grow all over the world and everybody should like it and promote it and make it huge. e-sport ain't made from a rich people hobby.
And treating e-sport as golf means making it very exclusive and golf only survives because its full of rich people playing and it was founded by them so it became popular between this important people, same as regatta, but Starcraft 2 isn't that sort of game. In korea Starcraft 2 looks a lot more like soccer were it need MASSES of viewers to survive because that will make sponsor be interested since this is not golf and the sponsors won't sell Louis Vuitton Starcraft 2 watches that cost eur $5.000 to the fans like they do with Regatta fans (http://www.louisvuitton.com/web/flash/index.jsp?direct1=cate&direct2=homme&direct3=cat10043&direct4=cat1520005&direct5=prod620122&langue=en_GB&buy=1).
I totally agree with Kespa unless GomTV have a very huge plan to make some major league or try to make starcraft like a golf but for the "gamer" standard that is usually the male from 20-30 years old (average) and with many segmentation variables that I won't put them here because I'm tired.
Hope Blizzard understand and what they should do is force Kespa and all this other guys to give the service that GOMTV provides to the foreigners because that's really an awesome thing that GOMTV is doing for the foreign scene that other e-sport organization aren't doing, instead of asking for that huge amount of money.
Both should reach an agreement and I agree more with KESPA, but Blizzard should force everybody to make it reachable to the whole world by forcing them to produce content for foreigners also... Their revenue would be bigger indeed since they would have a broader audience.
Jesus I wrote too much, must sleep.
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Lets get this over with .. no point in talking to the public .. i hate the system but we can't all have what we want. it will all boil down to whoever gets the upperhand and be on the good side of whoever it is going to be the arbiter for this piece of ruffle in what we call and love 'E-sport'!
BW HWAITING!
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This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat.
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On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote: This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat. I think you'd be off center to seriously believe that KeSPA are innocent little angels in this conflict either, but blizzard has a long history of making life miserable for anyone who refuses to give them a tidy cut of their "profits" whenever it's possible. Blizzard is one of the few gaming companies that shuts down third party mod projects that utilize their IP, which is especially interesting as a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content.
If Blizzard does have the moral high ground here, it's not by a huge margin.
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simple facts already stated:
KeSPA's fee's are used to finance and keep running the SL and PL and the BW scene in general
actiblizzard fee would go only, and only to actiblizzard
if you cant see it yet then you are just denying whats in front of your eyes
i really hope they get over this fast enough, thank you a lot for the translation, its always good to read both sides of the argument, makes it easier to tell who's the one talking bs(not that it was difficult from the start)
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On December 04 2010 19:10 SwiftSpear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote: This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat. which is especially interesting as a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content.
Ironic isn't it? :D
Its funny how people hate kespa when proteams before wanted sponsor's help. i dont understand why rek feel hatred towards these companies when infact they made it possible for the scene to last (they may haven't started it but atleast they were a big factor for it's success). could atleast give them some credit.
if its how kespa treats progamers under their contract, thats another story.
all in all its all about money. none from both sides admits that its all about money. its pathetic. but i love BW games and who ever delivers these games has, to me, to win.
and no i don't hate SC2 per se, its just that i hate overhyped things. but this isn't about SC2 nor BW.
its about dominating and controlling the scene. its like that from dune
who ever controls the spice, controls the universe spice=IP universe=e-sport/profit/the best players of the word/fans/money/money/profit ..
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"But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go."
lol'd.
Spunky even said it. "Playing under KeSPA was like playing under a communist regime." And if you want playing video games to be like that, then...well...I don't know what to say to you.
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Keep the updates coming. Blizzard needs to put their money where their mouth is a offer up a prize pool for teams and players to vie for. Jinro's last match had 70K viewers. A full blow season and singles tournament certainly can be translated into revenues through ticket and merchandise sales. Common Blizzard, do the right thing.
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I miss a lot of news since there is this new "community news section". This would deserve to be on the first page.
Anyway, I think it is totally normal to recognize Blizzard's IP, but whatever the PR stunts Paul Sams tries, it's hard to see the link between IP rights and the fact that Gretech asked MBC and OGN to yield their broadcast schedule (aka don't fucking broadcast PL/SL at the same time we broadcast GSL).
I think Kespa was totally right to reject these unacceptable conditions, and that losing a lawsuit can't be as bad as accepting them.
Thanks Milkis for the translation !
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On December 04 2010 20:02 JoFu wrote: Spunky even said it. "Playing under KeSPA was like playing under a communist regime." And if you want playing video games to be like that, then...well...I don't know what to say to you.
And Jaedong said "if it's not for Kespa and the broadcasting stations there is no esport and Blizzard is the guy who don't understand anything".
Seriously quoting one guy's biased view doesn't mean anything.
Kespa's system has regular salary, recognized job status and free gaming condition. In Kespa's system mapmakers and players own their maps and games, and Kespa must pay salary to the players and mapmakers to have control of their IP. Not to mention that they have media support which allow their games to be broadcast on TV like regular sports.
Blizzard's system has no assured salary (only the lucky guys who have a sponsor have), "amateur" status from the gov, and everything are paid by the players and not by the tournament's organizers. Battle.net 2.0 is the most bullshit thing ever made because every games, replays, maps, broadcast products created by the efforts of many people BELONGS to Blizzard. It doesn't only apply to the pro scene, it applies to every people in the world : the game you play with the silly comps do not belong to you, the map you spent 64 hours of work to make does not belong to you, THEY ALL BELONG TO BLIZZARD.
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
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On December 04 2010 19:10 SwiftSpear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote: This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat. a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starship_Troopers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.R._Giger
Just wanted to point out that 40k is no more original than Starcraft. Starship has space marines, a bug based race and smart, grey aliens. Also, Giger is more influential to the zerg than any arachnid.
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On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 20:02 JoFu wrote: Spunky even said it. "Playing under KeSPA was like playing under a communist regime." And if you want playing video games to be like that, then...well...I don't know what to say to you. And Jaedong said "if it's not for Kespa and the broadcasting stations there is no esport and Blizzard is the guy who don't understand anything". Seriously quoting one guy's biased view doesn't mean anything. Kespa's system has regular salary, recognized job status and free gaming condition. In Kespa's system mapmakers and players own their maps and games, and Kespa must pay salary to the players and mapmakers to have control of their IP. Not to mention that they have media support which allow their games to be broadcast on TV like regular sports. Blizzard's system has no assured salary (only the lucky guys who have a sponsor have), "amateur" status from the gov, and everything are paid by the players and not by the tournament's organizers. Battle.net 2.0 is the most bullshit thing ever made because every games, replays, maps, broadcast products created by the efforts of many people BELONGS to Blizzard. It doesn't only apply to the pro scene, it applies to every people in the world : the game you play with the silly comps do not belong to you, the map you spent 64 hours of work to make does not belong to you, THEY ALL BELONG TO BLIZZARD. Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
*nod* I remember that quote by Jaedong! Blizzard is not perfect either, and you just summed up most of their faults well. This Kespa bashing is getting old, regardless of whether they committed 'a major crime' in the anti-fans' eyes. BW e-sports would not have thrived without them because they are made up of all the sponsors of the teams involved. And however much I dislike some of their actions in the past, I only want BW to survive and prosper along with SC2.
We should all get along. But if BW dies because of this lawsuit against MBC, OGN and Kespa, then you all know who to focus your anger at. It is that simple. Zergbong, the winner of SC2 GSL Season 2, said in an interview that the SC community was divided in South Korea and that all the bickering back and forth was getting useless; he continued by saying that we should love and play both games regardless of what happens and that the fans are the real victims here. I can not agree with him more! ^^
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On December 04 2010 19:10 SwiftSpear wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 18:38 Maeldun wrote: This is the first time I felt for KeSPA, and felt that Blizzard were being assholes. Normally in my casual glances at this issue, I felt that KeSPA were assholes and Blizzard were awesome (over simplifying my feelings, but meh, it shall do). This however makes me question Blizzard's integrity somewhat. I think you'd be off center to seriously believe that KeSPA are innocent little angels in this conflict either, but blizzard has a long history of making life miserable for anyone who refuses to give them a tidy cut of their "profits" whenever it's possible. Blizzard is one of the few gaming companies that shuts down third party mod projects that utilize their IP, which is especially interesting as a huge amount of their IP is derived from WarHammer content. If Blizzard does have the moral high ground here, it's not by a huge margin.
We could easily say that all these medieval warfare with magic and orcs and elves involved is derived from Tolkien's LOTR. They still feel very different to me. I believe blizzard actually did openly say where their inspirations come from.
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On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote: KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue.
What a bold-faced lie.
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On December 04 2010 17:18 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 14:44 Catalyst wrote:I readily admit not having the best grasp on all the aspects of this back-and-forth struggle, but this part here: Blizzard has commented that KeSPA and the Progame teams restrict the freedom of the players, and that Blizzard would renovate this system by raising eSports and the players in the proper way.
But, KeSPA and the Progame teams do not restrict the freedoms of the players themselves. Every player enters the Progame team only after plenty of negotiations with a contract that is unique to the player, and the player himself has complete freedom to choose where he wants to go. The Progame team provides the player with a moderate salary that follows from their contract and a stable environment where they can practice. ...it reminds me of the drama and frustrations surrounding Jaedong's departure from and return to Oz. Kespa didn't seem to live up to those words then, though that was a complicated affair as well. I don't necessarily agree with all that Blizzard is doing, but Kespa does seem to be far worse... from the thread you linked: Show nested quote +On August 28 2009 16:24 DanceCommander wrote:On August 28 2009 16:23 GTR wrote: Am I the only one here who thinks that Jaedong leaving Starcraft won't be as detrimental as everyone thinks it will? No, but its just sad You don't just retire after winning an OSL... Apparently, another zerg begs to differ. ON topic: I think we need to compile a thread of COLD, HARD FACTS + Explanations about the various facets of the IP Rights case. There's too likely a chance that misinformation will spread in these threads (e.g. someone posting that KeSPA doesn't allow its players to play SC2 back on Pg. 2). And there are people who don't know the difference between sales, revenue, and profits... we just need a central bank of information to consult with regards to this case. It'll make the discussions so much better, IMO. I'll make it if I find time.
A Liquipedia article, perhaps? Linking to all the translation threads related to this issue and a timeline would be a good start.
There is too much misinformation. It really bugs me how many people think that KeSPA completely wants to ignore Blizzard's IP.
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On December 04 2010 14:33 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 14:32 rasers wrote: srsly ur dumb? sry. but when else should this happen? they only touch this stats when he wins something and when they have 2 change the status. so now ask urself why only nada and not the other pros? give me just 1 good reason for that. personal hate for nada? highly doubt it. i can tell you why nada and not the other pros though the other pros are still registered on kespa's website :O
That didn't answer the question.
The question is why would KeSPA retaliate only against NaDa?
It is extremely easy to accidentally "delete" all the information related to an entity. I continuously have to diagnose this kind of problems at my job. Incorrectly changing the status of a player is more than enough to "delete" all his data, which perfectly explains the timing of the incident.
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Guys, do you know how korean SAMSUNG, KIA, DAEWOO-like corporations work? They were initiated and supported by government. There are no rich guys owning these companies and making billions each year. Every profit these companies get are invested in education, research and other stuff to improve and go further. That was the idea. South Korea is very small and thats how they stay alive. I truly believe that KESPA is working in same way.
If I was head of Blizzard/Activision I would be very happy that our product (starcraft) has became something. Is KESPA running/doing something wrong? No they don't. They are making our dream come true. All that Blizzard/Activision wants is money. Thats it. Do you think they'd do better? Lets be honest GSL is fucking failing. There is more disappointment than excitement. Maps are bullshit as well as metagame.
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On December 03 2010 19:53 Minzy wrote:Show nested quote +KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. So KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that is allowed to make a profit. ok. Tsk.
Profit = Revenue - Costs
It's perfectly possible to generate revenue without making a profit. It even happens to for-profit organisations.
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On December 05 2010 00:44 HollowLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote: KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. What a bold-faced lie.
Your statement is libellous. Please show us an income statement of KeSPA that shows them banking a profit.
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On December 04 2010 19:22 [White]NaDa wrote: simple facts already stated:
KeSPA's fee's are used to finance and keep running the SL and PL and the BW scene in general
actiblizzard fee would go only, and only to actiblizzard
if you cant see it yet then you are just denying whats in front of your eyes
i really hope they get over this fast enough, thank you a lot for the translation, its always good to read both sides of the argument, makes it easier to tell who's the one talking bs(not that it was difficult from the start)
I obviously have no hard facts on these numbers... but if say... KeSPA took the fees, paid first an executive board of people salaries 5-10 times higher than the average player in the leagues first and then reinvested the rest into the teams and then went on to declare themselves an NPO but refusing to disclose how they invest their money would you still think of them as being awesome if the actual numbers came out?
I'd say probably not.
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On December 05 2010 01:50 Simplistik wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 00:44 HollowLord wrote:On December 03 2010 16:53 Milkis wrote: KeSPA is a nonprofit organization that grows and supports the eSports industry, but in order to create a stable environment for eSports and to promote eSports within Korea, KeSPA is allowed to pursue businesses that generate revenue. What a bold-faced lie. Your statement is libellous. Please show us an income statement of KeSPA that shows them banking a profit.
Has anyone actually seen KeSPA's financial records, executive salaries, etc? We keep having this argument, but we have no numbers to look at.
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Do the BW players have a bunch of quasi prostitute/groupy girls that live with them at the pro team houses? If so screw player rights.
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Nothing's changed ever since this whole fiasco got big this year. Same statements same arguments...
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5003 Posts
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
I'm pretty sure the WeMade WC3 players are still associated with WeMade
in fact, I'm sure WeMade would have 100% been happy to sponsor NaDa as he went to do GSL and such.
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On December 05 2010 02:22 Mike941 wrote: Do the BW players have a bunch of quasi prostitute/groupy girls that live with them at the pro team houses? If so screw player rights.
This isn't the fighting game scene, mate.
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On December 05 2010 01:57 Furycrab wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 19:22 [White]NaDa wrote: simple facts already stated:
KeSPA's fee's are used to finance and keep running the SL and PL and the BW scene in general
actiblizzard fee would go only, and only to actiblizzard
if you cant see it yet then you are just denying whats in front of your eyes
i really hope they get over this fast enough, thank you a lot for the translation, its always good to read both sides of the argument, makes it easier to tell who's the one talking bs(not that it was difficult from the start) I obviously have no hard facts on these numbers... but if say... KeSPA took the fees, paid first an executive board of people salaries 5-10 times higher than the average player in the leagues first and then reinvested the rest into the teams and then went on to declare themselves an NPO but refusing to disclose how they invest their money would you still think of them as being awesome if the actual numbers came out? I'd say probably not.
Speculating that Kespa is not an NPO is the same as asserting that Blizzard is out to kill off BW. Both statements seem logical, but neither have any solid proof.
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I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster.
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On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster.
I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already.
Move on.
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On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet.
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United States4053 Posts
On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it.
Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind.
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On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to.
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On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to.
Your analogy sux, that is it.
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On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to. Its accurate? your analogy is that you are assuming that there is dirt which you can't prove. Doesn't make a very good argument.
The last few pages I'm seeing a lot of the "what if KeSPA pays huge salaries to x?", "what if they aren't a nonprofit?", "why don't they want another (rival) company to audit them?", is that really what the anti-KeSPA argument has boiled down to? guess what? no company would want a rival company to audit them, whether there is dirt getting done or not. With the bullshit being tossed (by both sides), releasing information like that is just one more thing that can be twisted against you in the future (claims of mis-allocation of funds, inefficiency of operations, excuse to raising Blizzard's/Gretech's fees the following year because they want to squeeze an extra buck here and there, etc). After the bullshit Sams just said (like how they only want the equivalent of 1/5 of the fees, which is waaay off) the last thing you would willingly give out is more ammo for them. KeSPA can be audited by the government, not blizzard.
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On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part)
I'd like you to take a look at Moon.
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On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good.
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On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to. Your analogy sucks in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, nor any correct information.
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The Proleague licensing business was started with the purpose of creating an industrial framework so that many more people could watch eSports and Proleague through many more platform channels that arose from changes in the media industry. This would be funny if it wasn't tragic.
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On December 05 2010 05:54 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to. Your analogy sux, that is it. Excellent argument.
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Now I'm trying not to pick any sides here, as I think both organizations have made some very idiotic moves in the past few years. However, I don't think that KeSPA is doing what they're stating in that article. Now, I don't know exactly when the negotiations have taken place during this past year, but if they truly respected Blizzard's IP rights, then they should have never started the leagues again until the negotiations between them were finalized.
Just because you offer a settlement for the rights doesn't mean the IP holder should be obligated to take it. If Blizzard doesn't want to negotiate, then it's their decision. If you respected the rights, you should respect that decision.
Starting the leagues again just probably violated their Blizzard's IP rights and much more. It was a bold and serious move that probably offended Blizzard. Now I know that KeSPA probably had concerns when the leagues would start again, but they should of waited longer, even if the fans demanded for it. Now they got themselves in a probably far worse position than before.
As for Blizzard, I agree that their terms and IP rights control has gotten too far. I don't really know if the terms and conditions would be suitable for a large e-sports organization as KeSPA, because some of the terms really limits to what they want to do. However, as I go back to the beginning, it is Blizzard's game and IP, so it is their terms and conditions you have to abide by if you want to use their rights commercially. Sucks though, but it can get ugly if you don't respect and uphold it.
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I'm happy with GOM. GOM worked out a deal and got it done. Why can't KESPA? Instead KESPA is trying to infringe on blizzards rights. KESPA doesn't have a leg to stand on.
That is the bottom line.
Anytime someone accepts what you said and then says. But
Which is clearly said
But because recognizing the IP rights shouldn't be a chain that constrains the organizations involved via license fees, demanding complete ownership rights to derivative works, and to even demanding auditing rights to KeSPA, KeSPA has repeatedly been in discussions to try and reach a common ground where both sides can agree with with regards to IP rights acknowledgement.
This clearly states that KESPA doesn't respect blizzards rights. There is no discussion on the IP rights. Its clearly blizzards. KESPA as an organization needs to come to an agreement with Blizzard or they are done. Its really that simple. Everything else is just bullshit and attempting to get an emotional or opinionated response from the community which doesn't matter in the case of IP rights.
Especially considering some people such as spunky referring to KESPA as communism... I believe it was...
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On December 05 2010 09:19 JayDee_ wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 05:54 palexhur wrote:On December 05 2010 05:31 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 05:06 infinitestory wrote:On December 05 2010 04:53 JayDee_ wrote:On December 05 2010 04:46 maybenexttime wrote:On December 05 2010 04:26 JayDee_ wrote: I came up with an analogy today. Being a SC fan under Kespa is like being the son of a Mafia boss. He treats you well, gives you everything you ever wanted, you're set for life. However, deep in the back of your mind you know he got that money by killing/extorting/cheating people. With all the luxuries you have, you know your father is a low life gangster. I'm pretty sure everyone's tired of seeing irrelevant analogies already. Move on. Thanks, for the daily troll. I haven't been hit by one yet. No, he's absolutely right. There is no analogy that can describe this situation correctly. It's unprecedented. I think even baller would struggle with it. Just don't try to make analogies for anything related to the IP Rights case. It's the first of its kind. The analogy was accurate in my opinion. It didn't present any new information, but analogies aren't designed to. Your analogy sux, that is it. Excellent argument.
Spice analogy then
Who controls the spice controls the universe
spice = IP universe = Money/Profit(REVENUES!)/Best players playing their leagues/advertisments!/money/money/money ..
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@Jay_Dee If you are an SCV getting bombarded by Guardians (Moopie), Tanks (Amnesia) and a myriad of other units with none coming to your defence. I think it would be a good idea to take a good look at yourself (and your argument) and see if there is anything wrong.
Personally speaking, i think your argument/analogy is not good. It is basically your personal opinion on a highly debatable matter, flavoured with even more of your own personal biases.
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On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good.
No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable?
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On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable? If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is.
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On December 05 2010 12:45 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable? If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is.
I think he was talking about the (false) rumor that players are altogether banned from touching SC2 even during their time off and holidays, which have been going around some time in the past. It is, however, a false rumor and i have no idea how it has come about that people are taking it as facts now.
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konadora
Singapore66060 Posts
On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. Nope, it's correct.
Moon's profession is still a WC3 player. SC2 is his "side-hobby" or "off-season" game which he just happens to have enough skill to participate in without being fully dedicated to training for.
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On December 04 2010 00:22 Hot_Bid wrote:
There are lot of well-accepted reasons why IP exists and the benefits it brings. I doubt anyone feels it's reasonable to just counter Blizzard's assertion of their rights in SC2 with "why have IP rights at all?" That's nonsense.
Gross oversimplification, IP rights is a very broad subject and many parts of it are controversial at best. The US is at one extreme, I am not sure where in the spectrum Korea is at.
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On December 05 2010 12:45 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable? If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is.
I wasn't talking about NaDa specifically, but sure it applies to him as well. I was thinking about the fact that any BW pro who wishes to give SC2 a shot won't be allowed back to BW for 3 years. They are forced to retire, which is nonsensical and moronic in itself. Call it what you want the effect is the same.
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I don't think KeSPA has arguments that are going to hold up in court during a legal battle with Blizzard, should that occur. The fact of the matter is that Blizzard employees made all of the artwork seen in the game of Starcraft, and every time a match is shown on Television, that is Blizzard's artwork playing on the screen. If they didn't give KeSPA permission to use it, then KeSPA simply can't make the claim that what they're doing is legal.
Regardless of whoever might be right or wrong from a moral standpoint, I feel like it's pretty clear from a legal standpoint that KeSPA will lose in a court battle. The real question is, how benevolent will Blizzard be with its IP once it finally secures it? Will Blizzard allow KeSPA to keep running Starcraft leagues while sharing the profit, or will they take it away from KeSPA entirely?
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United States7483 Posts
In theory, in reality a lot of profits for large NPO's go into paying high salaries for CEO's etc. While most of their work force is volunteer and upaid. Red Cross is a perefect example of this where a large majority of donated money doesn't go to help anyone, it goes to pay salaries of people who never steep foot out of an office building...or to pay for commericals asking for more money.
Kespa started out largely for the players but it's well known over time kespa advocated less and less for players and more and more for kespa's control of players. A lot of kespa's constraints on players are absolutely ridiculous, the reason kespa is threatend by what blizzard is doing here is because they are about to lose control of the starcraft esport in korea to the group being put together being supported by blizzard, players, and gom.
If they want to broadcast and 'profit' from blizzards product they should pay blizzard to do it, it's no different then ABC, NBC, FOX, paying the NFL to broadcast their games to make commerical profit off them.
Crying were a NPO is a load, the top people in kespa make nice comfy salaries to just oversee starcraft and they are afraid they are going to lose their bank roll, or expose their corruption by agreeing to blizzards terms.
Oh I wasn't arguing that KeSPA is a good NPO or even really an NPO, I was merely stating what the classification of an NPO meant in the legal sense, and what the theory behind it is.
And salaries and employee pay qualifies as 'costs', and therefore isn't a usage of profits.
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On December 05 2010 15:43 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2010 12:45 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 12:11 Longshank wrote:On December 05 2010 06:36 moopie wrote:On December 05 2010 06:28 zhurai wrote:On December 04 2010 22:53 kamikami wrote:
Blizzard is the communist here, not Kespa. Blizzard fans 'only argument is that "Players under Kespa are not allowed to play 2 games at a time" which is extremely weak : no player plays 2 games at a time both professionally, They are under Pro Contract and receive salary, they are tied to the company they work for, like every professional jobs in the world. If you are a professional developer working for Microsoft you are not allowed to work for Ford as a professional car seller. In the SC2 scene Blizzard don't pay the players anything and therefore the players have no tie with Blizzard, they are freelancers and can do whatever they want, but they lack a professional contract and a regular salary. Blizzard even strip the players from the right to own their rightful IP : the games they played.
bad argument. (About the bolded part) I'd like you to take a look at Moon. WC3 has nowhere near the demanding schedule that BW has. Moon has no domestic leagues to play in, whereas BW progamers have very busy week-to-week schedules. A year long proleague as well as individual leagues (for those not eliminated) doesn't leave as much time to try to pursue another game professionally without neglecting the effort going into BW (which is what they are contracted for, and what they are getting paid and housed to do full time). In the end, if your employer (team) is fine with you devoting x hours of your working time into something else, then great, but not agreeing to it doesn't make your employer unreasonable/communist/etc. kamikami's argument is good. No one has said players should be able to freely chose game while maintaining salary, where did you get this from? KeSPA is however banning anyone who wants to give SC2 a go for 3 years, how on earth is that reasonable? If you are talking about NaDa's retirement announcement, it came as a result of him choosing to not re-sign with WeMade and was a generic retirement deal. The terms of the retirement announcement were the same terms that apply to any progamer that does not re-sign with a team (and thus loses his progaming license), the 3-year break from KeSPA affiliated teams applies to all retiring progamers, not just NaDa (or those transferring to SC2). You can go look at KeSPA's retirement notices and see they are all the same, regardless of players transferring to SC2 or not. As for why the terms are what they are, I don't know, they aren't what I would have used but it is what it is. I wasn't talking about NaDa specifically, but sure it applies to him as well. I was thinking about the fact that any BW pro who wishes to give SC2 a shot won't be allowed back to BW for 3 years. They are forced to retire, which is nonsensical and moronic in itself. Call it what you want the effect is the same.
False. None of the former MBCGame BW players who switched to SC2 have retired. They are still registered with Kespa. In fact they are still on Kespa's December rankings. Many so-called "retired" progamers in fact keep their licenses (like Nal_ra) because once you officially give up your license and retire, it's hard to get it back again. It's not a new rule they invented to deter players from switching to SC2.
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Blizzard (coughActivisioncough) wants way too big a piece of the pie, but Kespa isn't without fault either.
Regardless of how it turns out, the end result will set a pretty huge precedent for future esports attempts.
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ehh It all comes down to greed whitch is what I think hurts the pro gaming scene the most.
All companies involved just want as much money as possible and only support esports in order to get that money. I do not think that because blizzard created starcraft they should get a piece of sponsorship money. Hell blizzard makes litterrally over 64 MILLION dollars a MONTH Way more than that accually but I did the math on WOW players once and it came up to just over 64 million dollars a month in subscriptions and this was a year or two ago there are far more wow subscribers now. And when you consider all the merchandising like action figures posters wow card games plushies etc etc I mean the company makes ubsurd amounts of money. They need to relax on the pro gaming scene and stop demanding money in the end they will make a hell of alot more if they relax a bit. If online gaming became as big in the US as in korea imagine the sheer volumes of cash they would make. The problem therein is that blizzard makes outrages demands of anyone profiting whatsoever from SC. I have heard rumors that they wanted a percentage of the money professionals were paid by their sponsors, like some ridiculous amount 30-40%. *shrug* Blizzard was an amazing company until they sold out and went totally corporate.
Blizzard just needs to back off and allow esports to grow, it will eb alot more beneficial for them int he long run
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No matter how much deed KeSPA have done in the past, their goal has strayed over the years. Their passions has burnt out, and now just become a money/power hunger organization that only cared about itself.
So I'd like to see KeSPA to be gone, as replacements will eventually take over. With new guys on the block, there will be more opportunity for everyone. No doubt we will see a greater result, if not the same.
Since majority of Korean want it gone anyway, why not just let it go, surely they understand the scene more than us, it is like choosing governament.
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Jeez. Its like choosing between a rock and a hard place. Kespa has been a terrible organization for quite some time. And its complete bullshit when they say they care about the players. They care about what they recieve out of it, and their treatment of players is ridiculous.
But on the other hand, Blizzard isnt the same 'ol Blizzard. Since Activision bought them they are just money hungry. They are very shady now, compared to when they were so chill and actually cared about the community and giving them what they want. I mean they've taken away SOOO much just so they can sell as many copies as possible. But will turn around and claim that they value Esports.
Ugh, time to facepalm.
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Thanks for translating =)
Silly koreans, they had the chance to kidnap Paul Sams and force Blizzards hand in the negotiations!
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United States238 Posts
Seems KeSPA posted additional information yesterday. This new information includes more detail on the actual KeSPA's income from licensing fee and what they did with it.
So here you go:
Source is: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=2416325
KeSPA spoke yesterday (Dec. 5th), that "[KeSPA] finalized broadcasting licensing with IEG as the broadcasting business in 2007, and received 1,700,000,000 won for 3 years of broadcasting. But, 1,500,000,000 won were invested in broadcasting production purposes for OGN and MBCGame over the 3 years, and whatever remained were invested in events and promotions. As a result, profits gained through the leagues are virtually nil. Even before we can fully operate e-sports market comfortably, the "ridiculous licensing fee" requested by Blizzard / Gretech can completely shake down the very roots of e-sports market."
In addition, they said, for the rights of viewers and the growth of e-sport in Korea, KeSPA and broadcasting companies will always actively take part in the negotiations.
KeSPA showed their operating costs and income over the years of 2007, 2008, and 2009 as follows:
* In 2007 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 500,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2008 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2009 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* Throughout 2007, 2008, and 2009, total of - 200,000,000 won was spent for marketing and promotion *
** Total tally **
Profit: 1,700,000,000 won
Broadcasting support cost: - 1,500,000,000 won Marketing and promotion: - 200,000,000 won
Hmm.
Korean netizens in general saying the same thing you've heard that they have been: "lol kespa"
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Why would anyone even support Kespa during all this?
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Because they enjoy watching proBW.
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>< wants to rage against blizzzard again but what ever <3 kespa
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On December 06 2010 12:37 Lil.Sassy wrote: Why would anyone even support Kespa during all this?
Because it governs the only current successful e-sports structure known to us right now?
While it may be in Blizzard's legal rights to do it, the morality of it is a huge issue.
KeSPA doesn't even seem interested in SC2, so I don't know, the argument that Blizzard is trying to protect SC2 doesn't seen valid to me, other than the fact that it wants SC2 on the primetime TV slots (Good luck with that though as you just sued the two TV corporations airing Starcraft). If KeSPA suddenly went out and started hosting SC2 tournaments without Blizzard's consent, then I would support Blizzard fully because it is their new game and they have to protect it. However, why can't Blizzard let BW slide? Threatening the scene that has existed for 10 years? The only e-sports to be shown on national TV? The backlash they are going to get if the scene crumbles? (assuming Koreans haven't all completely switched over to SC2 already).
I sorta feel that the Koreans take Starcraft for granted, I mean they've had it going for them for years, I don't think they feel that it's going to change, but the potential for it to die as soon as KeSPA loses is there. But they are still clinging on to past wrongdoings by KeSPA at the moment. Kinda like how we may criticize our own government while praising another country's.
If Koreans knew something we didn't, wouldn't someone have stepped up by now with that kind of information for Milkis or Selith to dig up?
Also, I have mixed feelings about people arguing about the rights of the players. KeSPA holds fair tournaments as far as I know, and after reading the comments of many people in the BoxeR thread, who seem to believe that e-sports is all about protecting star players at the expense of other players to increase exposure/viewership... lets just say I was pretty disappointed when the thread got closed.
Do people think Blizzard can do better? I'm no too confident about that. Because everything about them in the new games WoW and SC2 seems to point to them doing everything in their power to pull casuals in and tailor the product to fit them, catering to the "bigger audience". Will e-sports fit into this business model? Because I'd feel rather uneasy if it wasn't.
Either way... what I've said is not 100% right, but that's how I feel about the situation at the moment. Hope BW pulls through, and maybe this will give them incentive to expand MBC/OGN channels worldwide, we already have KBS and arirang here.
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Canada10904 Posts
On December 06 2010 13:02 IntoTheEmo wrote: If KeSPA suddenly went out and started hosting SC2 tournaments without Blizzard's consent, then I would support Blizzard fully because it is their new game and they have to protect it. However, why can't Blizzard let BW slide? Threatening the scene that has existed for 10 years? The only e-sports to be shown on national TV? The backlash they are going to get if the scene crumbles? (assuming Koreans haven't all completely switched over to SC2 already).
I sorta feel that the Koreans take Starcraft for granted, I mean they've had it going for them for years, I don't think they feel that it's going to change, but the potential for it to die as soon as KeSPA loses is there. But they are still clinging on to past wrongdoings by KeSPA at the moment. Kinda like how we may criticize our own government while praising another country's.
If Koreans knew something we didn't, wouldn't someone have stepped up by now with that kind of information for Milkis or Selith to dig up?
The thing is KESPA's arguments would transfer to SC2. I think Blizzard is interested in the BW scene, but even if they didn't it's easier for them to use BW as the legal battle ground before someone like KESPA jumps in to the SC2 scene and says that IP doesn't mean what you think it means and we can sell broadcasting right without your permission. Pre-emptive if you will
I'm still very hesitant to dismiss the Koreans opinions of KESPA as taking things for granted as though we on the outside have a better picture of how the BW scene.
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5003 Posts
On December 06 2010 11:15 Selith wrote:Seems KeSPA posted additional information yesterday. This new information includes more detail on the actual KeSPA's income from licensing fee and what they did with it. So here you go: Source is: http://www.playxp.com/sc2/news/view.php?article_id=2416325Show nested quote +KeSPA spoke yesterday (Dec. 5th), that "[KeSPA] finalized broadcasting licensing with IEG as the broadcasting business in 2007, and received 1,700,000,000 won for 3 years of broadcasting. But, 1,500,000,000 won were invested in broadcasting production purposes for OGN and MBCGame over the 3 years, and whatever remained were invested in events and promotions. As a result, profits gained through the leagues are virtually nil. Even before we can fully operate e-sports market comfortably, the "ridiculous licensing fee" requested by Blizzard / Gretech can completely shake down the very roots of e-sports market."
In addition, they said, for the rights of viewers and the growth of e-sport in Korea, KeSPA and broadcasting companies will always actively take part in the negotiations.
KeSPA showed their operating costs and income over the years of 2007, 2008, and 2009 as follows:
* In 2007 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 500,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2008 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* In 2009 *
Profit from broadcasting license: 600,000,000 won
Broadcasting support for OGN: - 250,000,000 won Broadcasting support for MBC: - 250,000,000 won
* Throughout 2007, 2008, and 2009, total of - 200,000,000 won was spent for marketing and promotion *
** Total tally **
Profit: 1,700,000,000 won
Broadcasting support cost: - 1,500,000,000 won Marketing and promotion: - 200,000,000 won
Hmm. Korean netizens in general saying the same thing you've heard that they have been: "lol kespa"
added to OP
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I think this line of reasoning doesnt hold (aka "they need to rip shits up in BW in order to deter similar competition in SC2"). Blizz already have COMPLETE control over SC2 due to their battle.net policy n stuffs. No way anyone can do ANYTHING related to SC2 without their consent, much less compete with them.
As such, i believe their motive is much less... valid.
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On December 06 2010 14:33 ffreakk wrote: I think this line of reasoning doesnt hold (aka "they need to rip shits up in BW in order to deter similar competition in SC2"). Blizz already have COMPLETE control over SC2 due to their battle.net policy n stuffs. No way anyone can do ANYTHING related to SC2 without their consent, much less compete with them.
As such, i believe their motive is much less... valid.
Did you ever think about it the other way... Blizzard has to put super ridiculous Battle.net control and can't actually make a LAN client, even for tournaments, because they don't want a KeSPA 2.0? (even if it isn't technically KeSPA) For them a favorable court ruling in a Korean court means they could start trying to expand their plans.
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I don't understand the situation too much so I apologize if I make some major mistakes, but there's just some minor concerns I have:
So in the KeSPA licensing income, it says they only make 500,000,000 won per year from licensing rights.
For GOM TV right now, just the winner of each month's GSL wins about 100,000,000 won. So if they keep up similar prizes throughout a year, that will be more than 1,200,000,000 in just prizes given out alone. If broadcasting these games only makes as little as KeSPA says, then wouldn't GOM TV be losing out on shitload of money right now?
Now you might say that KeSPA only reported 500,000,000 of pure profit so that might mean the money is the amount calculated after subtracting the total revenue from the prize money, production fee etc. But then shouldn't the 250,000,000 they claim to have spent on supporting OSL and MSL been taken into account when calculating that profit?
I mean I guess they could have not included in the calculation, but it just seems to me that these numbers are very fishy. It seems that they are manipulating numbers or even falsely reporting numbers to help their public image. I, for one, find it hard to believe they make so little money from the broadcasting of SC.
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LOL Bots in TL? snatchin our people up?
I'm so confused about IP rights even tho i've read some of the OP, EXACTLY what is ip rights? Broadcasting rights to sc or something?
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I believe the proper response when you do not know is to find out, not throw around random numbers and think that they do not make sense.
A few things that i believe you missed out
- GSL prize pool =/= Proleague n Starleague prize pool - Kespa has more capital source than just the money they charge broadcasting stations.. In fact that money shouldnt be much compared to the amount the sponsors inject into the scene. - And i honestly dont think that GSL is generating profit. Blizz is pumping the $$$ in because they believe that it would help elevate the sales of SC2, thats why it is still operational. When Blizz's interest leaves, i do not know if GSL will still happens though.
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On December 06 2010 20:33 Rawenkeke wrote: LOL Bots in TL? snatchin our people up?
I'm so confused about IP rights even tho i've read some of the OP, EXACTLY what is ip rights? Broadcasting rights to sc or something?
Blizzard believes that since Starcraft is protected by copyright laws that the broadcast are a direct derivative of their product and is thus eligible for licensing compensation.
What would be interesting is that if Blizzard gets it's way and a game switch occurs, where players will start playing some other game professionally.
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On December 06 2010 20:33 Rawenkeke wrote: I'm so confused about IP rights even tho i've read some of the OP, EXACTLY what is ip rights? Broadcasting rights to sc or something?
IP stands for Intellectual Property: property (as an idea, invention, or process) that derives from the work of the mind or intellect.
From Blizzard's point of view Kespa is using their property to make money. There's been a lot of comparisons with actual property to make a point for either side. To give an example for both sides using football:
Pro blizzard: Starcraft is like the stadium and kespa is using it and charging spectators to watch. Pro kespa: Starcraft is like the ball, we don't have to pay the inventer to the ball every time we play or spectate a football match.
There have been better analogies than that last one, since that last one is obviously flawed, but compairing IP to physical property is difficult to begin with. And this conflict is grown to be about much more than mere recognition of blizzard's IP. From my limited and ignorent perspective Blizzard seems to have a stronger case than Kespa, but since I'm not going to be the one deciding that, my opinion wont make any difference.
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On December 06 2010 19:14 Fangzhou wrote: I don't understand the situation too much so I apologize if I make some major mistakes, but there's just some minor concerns I have:
So in the KeSPA licensing income, it says they only make 500,000,000 won per year from licensing rights.
For GOM TV right now, just the winner of each month's GSL wins about 100,000,000 won. So if they keep up similar prizes throughout a year, that will be more than 1,200,000,000 in just prizes given out alone. If broadcasting these games only makes as little as KeSPA says, then wouldn't GOM TV be losing out on shitload of money right now?
Now you might say that KeSPA only reported 500,000,000 of pure profit so that might mean the money is the amount calculated after subtracting the total revenue from the prize money, production fee etc. But then shouldn't the 250,000,000 they claim to have spent on supporting OSL and MSL been taken into account when calculating that profit?
I mean I guess they could have not included in the calculation, but it just seems to me that these numbers are very fishy. It seems that they are manipulating numbers or even falsely reporting numbers to help their public image. I, for one, find it hard to believe they make so little money from the broadcasting of SC.
Gomtv does not have TV broadcasting costs. Itdoes not run progaming houses like MBC and OGN does/used to. Neither do they run Courage, Elite Schools League, Dream League, training events etc etc like Kespa does for BW. But most importantly, they do not run a Proleague. Kespa/MBC/OGN clearly have far higher operational costs. If you do not know anything, refrain from wild conspiracy theories.
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On December 06 2010 23:25 Abraxa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 20:33 Rawenkeke wrote: I'm so confused about IP rights even tho i've read some of the OP, EXACTLY what is ip rights? Broadcasting rights to sc or something? IP stands for Intellectual Property: property (as an idea, invention, or process) that derives from the work of the mind or intellect. From Blizzard's point of view Kespa is using their property to make money. There's been a lot of comparisons with actual property to make a point for either side. To give an example for both sides using football: Pro blizzard: Starcraft is like the stadium and kespa is using it and charging spectators to watch. Pro kespa: Starcraft is like the ball, we don't have to pay the inventer to the ball every time we play or spectate a football match. There have been better analogies than that last one, since that last one is obviously flawed, but compairing IP to physical property is difficult to begin with. And this conflict is grown to be about much more than mere recognition of blizzard's IP. From my limited and ignorent perspective Blizzard seems to have a stronger case than Kespa, but since I'm not going to be the one deciding that, my opinion wont make any difference.
I like those particular analogies, makes it very easy for casuals to understand the whole conflict. Also, about the second one being flawed; isn't KeSPA's case flawed to begin with?
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Canada10904 Posts
On December 06 2010 23:25 Abraxa wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 20:33 Rawenkeke wrote: I'm so confused about IP rights even tho i've read some of the OP, EXACTLY what is ip rights? Broadcasting rights to sc or something? IP stands for Intellectual Property: property (as an idea, invention, or process) that derives from the work of the mind or intellect. From Blizzard's point of view Kespa is using their property to make money. There's been a lot of comparisons with actual property to make a point for either side. To give an example for both sides using football: Pro blizzard: Starcraft is like the stadium and kespa is using it and charging spectators to watch. Pro kespa: Starcraft is like the ball, we don't have to pay the inventer to the ball every time we play or spectate a football match. There have been better analogies than that last one, since that last one is obviously flawed, but compairing IP to physical property is difficult to begin with. And this conflict is grown to be about much more than mere recognition of blizzard's IP. From my limited and ignorent perspective Blizzard seems to have a stronger case than Kespa, but since I'm not going to be the one deciding that, my opinion wont make any difference.
To add to this, intellectual property states that as a creator of IP, you have control over your works derivatives. (Example- Nobody but JK Rowling can write a sequel to the Harry Potter series and she expressly has to sell the rights to make the movie to someone else for a movie to be made. One cannot just make a movie or an unofficial sequel and profit from it.) Furthermore, one cannot profit from ideas within the novel without permission- using characters from a novel or book to advertise products without permission from the author. Companies have this with logos- you can't just slap a Nike sign on a product without it being a Nike product.
I think your pro-Blizzard analogy is terrible because a stadium is not IP in any sense of the word unless perhaps it was a very specific design by an architect. (Or rather an architecture design is probably IP, but the analogy doesn't parallel very well when the analogy implicitly includes the game of whatever is being played. SC2 doesn't just house the game, but is the game. And that game is contains content that in any other context would be considered art- music, graphics, video. All that is IP. The concept of what is a "high templar" belongs to Blizzard.) But I'm really tired of coming up with analogies. It's much more like any other piece of music, movie, book, or created work.
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Obviously any analogy compairing IP to actual objects will be flawed. The stadium analogy is about the actual stadium btw, not the design or anything. The analogy is that Kespa is using the stadium that is owned by another company to host their tournament and not paying the owners of the stadium for it. But like I said, any analogy will be flawed and laws concerning IP are because of the nature of IP a lot less clear than about actual physical property.
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On December 07 2010 01:00 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On December 06 2010 23:25 Abraxa wrote:On December 06 2010 20:33 Rawenkeke wrote: I'm so confused about IP rights even tho i've read some of the OP, EXACTLY what is ip rights? Broadcasting rights to sc or something? IP stands for Intellectual Property: property (as an idea, invention, or process) that derives from the work of the mind or intellect. From Blizzard's point of view Kespa is using their property to make money. There's been a lot of comparisons with actual property to make a point for either side. To give an example for both sides using football: Pro blizzard: Starcraft is like the stadium and kespa is using it and charging spectators to watch. Pro kespa: Starcraft is like the ball, we don't have to pay the inventer to the ball every time we play or spectate a football match. There have been better analogies than that last one, since that last one is obviously flawed, but compairing IP to physical property is difficult to begin with. And this conflict is grown to be about much more than mere recognition of blizzard's IP. From my limited and ignorent perspective Blizzard seems to have a stronger case than Kespa, but since I'm not going to be the one deciding that, my opinion wont make any difference. To add to this, intellectual property states that as a creator of IP, you have control over your works derivatives. (Example- Nobody but JK Rowling can write a sequel to the Harry Potter series and she expressly has to sell the rights to make the movie to someone else for a movie to be made. One cannot just make a movie or an unofficial sequel and profit from it.) Furthermore, one cannot profit from ideas within the novel without permission- using characters from a novel or book to advertise products without permission from the author. Companies have this with logos- you can't just slap a Nike sign on a product without it being a Nike product. I think your pro-Blizzard analogy is terrible because a stadium is not IP in any sense of the word unless perhaps it was a very specific design by an architect. (Or rather an architecture design is probably IP, but the analogy doesn't parallel very well when the analogy implicitly includes the game of whatever is being played. SC2 doesn't just house the game, but is the game. And that game is contains content that in any other context would be considered art- music, graphics, video. All that is IP. The concept of what is a "high templar" belongs to Blizzard.) But I'm really tired of coming up with analogies. It's much more like any other piece of music, movie, book, or created work.
It seems like as long as blizzard enforces these IP rights there can never be a pro scene equal to what we saw from Kespa though, which is sad. Will blizzard really even profit all that much from licensing ip rights? I understand that blizzard wants to keep control of their product this time around but I don't really see what they stand to gain from it other than minor profits in comparison to sales and WoW. Everyone seems to be shooting down the sport analogies saying that Esports =/= real sports, however, that is the beauty of what Kespa did. They turned sc into a spectator sport with sponsors on live TV and paid professional players. I am not really on either side of the fence as I don't agree with a lot of stuff Kespa does, but I also really hate blizzards direction ever since the release of WoTLK. Kespa is no more money hungry than the current Actiblizzard. It's sad to see one of the greatest gaming companies in the world change so much when a few years back they would've approached the situation completely different. Wc3 had LAN and no IP rights issues only because it was never developed into a pro sport like SC. Even though it may legally be Blizzards right to want a slice of the pie that is korean sc esports, it doesn't seem morally right to suggest they want the growth of esports at the same time. I could be completely wrong about Blizzards motives though, and they could just be trying to help. But what is Blizzard really going to change? GSL is fun to watch but without contracted players and leagues there is no sport. It turns into an event like MLG, which is great, but nothing like a stadium full of people, broadcasted on live TV. MLG and WCG are great for the Esport community but don't really expand to mainstream audiences.
Srry bout the wall of text and my shitty writing xD
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On December 07 2010 08:25 Synapze wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2010 01:00 Falling wrote:On December 06 2010 23:25 Abraxa wrote:On December 06 2010 20:33 Rawenkeke wrote: I'm so confused about IP rights even tho i've read some of the OP, EXACTLY what is ip rights? Broadcasting rights to sc or something? IP stands for Intellectual Property: property (as an idea, invention, or process) that derives from the work of the mind or intellect. From Blizzard's point of view Kespa is using their property to make money. There's been a lot of comparisons with actual property to make a point for either side. To give an example for both sides using football: Pro blizzard: Starcraft is like the stadium and kespa is using it and charging spectators to watch. Pro kespa: Starcraft is like the ball, we don't have to pay the inventer to the ball every time we play or spectate a football match. There have been better analogies than that last one, since that last one is obviously flawed, but compairing IP to physical property is difficult to begin with. And this conflict is grown to be about much more than mere recognition of blizzard's IP. From my limited and ignorent perspective Blizzard seems to have a stronger case than Kespa, but since I'm not going to be the one deciding that, my opinion wont make any difference. To add to this, intellectual property states that as a creator of IP, you have control over your works derivatives. (Example- Nobody but JK Rowling can write a sequel to the Harry Potter series and she expressly has to sell the rights to make the movie to someone else for a movie to be made. One cannot just make a movie or an unofficial sequel and profit from it.) Furthermore, one cannot profit from ideas within the novel without permission- using characters from a novel or book to advertise products without permission from the author. Companies have this with logos- you can't just slap a Nike sign on a product without it being a Nike product. I think your pro-Blizzard analogy is terrible because a stadium is not IP in any sense of the word unless perhaps it was a very specific design by an architect. (Or rather an architecture design is probably IP, but the analogy doesn't parallel very well when the analogy implicitly includes the game of whatever is being played. SC2 doesn't just house the game, but is the game. And that game is contains content that in any other context would be considered art- music, graphics, video. All that is IP. The concept of what is a "high templar" belongs to Blizzard.) But I'm really tired of coming up with analogies. It's much more like any other piece of music, movie, book, or created work. It seems like as long as blizzard enforces these IP rights there can never be a pro scene equal to what we saw from Kespa though, which is sad. Will blizzard really even profit all that much from licensing ip rights? I understand that blizzard wants to keep control of their product this time around but I don't really see what they stand to gain from it other than minor profits in comparison to sales and WoW. Everyone seems to be shooting down the sport analogies saying that Esports =/= real sports, however, that is the beauty of what Kespa did. They turned sc into a spectator sport with sponsors on live TV and paid professional players. I am not really on either side of the fence as I don't agree with a lot of stuff Kespa does, but I also really hate blizzards direction ever since the release of WoTLK. Kespa is no more money hungry than the current Actiblizzard. It's sad to see one of the greatest gaming companies in the world change so much when a few years back they would've approached the situation completely different. Wc3 had LAN and no IP rights issues only because it was never developed into a pro sport like SC. Even though it may legally be Blizzards right to want a slice of the pie that is korean sc esports, it doesn't seem morally right to suggest they want the growth of esports at the same time. I could be completely wrong about Blizzards motives though, and they could just be trying to help. But what is Blizzard really going to change? GSL is fun to watch but without contracted players and leagues there is no sport. It turns into an event like MLG, which is great, but nothing like a stadium full of people, broadcasted on live TV. MLG and WCG are great for the Esport community but don't really expand to mainstream audiences. Srry bout the wall of text and my shitty writing xD
Wall of text with good logic hats off to you yeah blizzard's is a mere shadow of its former self .
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Why does everyone on TeamLiquid suddenly seem to support KeSPA, what happened to 6 months ago when everyone loathed them for all the dumb things they've done?
I made an account just to say this.
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I don't understand
Whatever revenue they generate is supposed to be re-invested for their organization/cause. How is it profit? Nobody owns KeSPA, there aren't shareholders, it's an NPO that represents Korean e-sports.
There seems to be a whole lot of confusion about the relevance of KeSPA's status as a non-profit organization. From a legal perspective this is irrelevant.
To put it simply, any activity which uses someone else's intellectual property that generates revenue must be given permission to do so by the owner of that IP. Whether or not a profit is made isn't important.
As an example, imagine that a charitable non-profit organizaion, lets say the Salvation Army, wants to get extra money to for feeding the homeless this year. Someone has the idea of opening up a Salvation Army movie theater in one of their offices. For a token fee compared to the price of a normal movie ticket, people can sit down and watch recently released DVD's (that the SA buys at retail) of major motion pictures on a projection screen. Legally speaking, does the Salvation Army need the permission of Warner Brothers (or whomever else movies they use) to do this?
Absolutely! While there are no actual profits made, there will be plenty of revenue. It doesn't even matter if the costs for this venture end up higher than the revenue brought in (resulting in a loss), all that matters is that revenue was created using someone else's property.
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On December 07 2010 19:22 Sixotanaka wrote: Why does everyone on TeamLiquid suddenly seem to support KeSPA, what happened to 6 months ago when everyone loathed them for all the dumb things they've done?
I made an account just to say this.
When they were wrong, people are against them.
Many think that they agree with Kespa this time, so they (Kespa) get the support.
On the other hand, i dont think that continually bashing someone for an eternity just because they did some wrongs in the past, and without consideration to their current actions/situation is logical, or right, for that matter.
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Kespa who? Who needs Kespa? I certainly don't. I watch great games on GOMTv and there is enough free streaming of quality matches going on. Some power hungry old game playing Korean group wants to dictate the "scene" is just laughable to me. Get off it. There are pro SC2 teams and leagues formed and playing. The train has already left and it looks like KeSpa is trying to catch a running train at this point. Anyone notice how contrite it sounded, yet how many times did they tell you of "10 years". Move on, SC1 is an old lovable game, but the future is SC2. KeSpa is an idiotic organization.
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@ KeepYaCoolBro
Im pretty surprised u didnt get a temp ban or at least a warning for your post. Magnificent display of ignorance and idiocy, in my humble opinion.
@ Big Jim Shade
I think it has already been agreed upon that the legal rights of both sides in this mess is pretty unclear since there was no cases like this before. What is still in discussion though, is both the moral issues of Blizz pissing on their long-time benefactor, refusing to acknowledge the importance as well as (positive) impact of Kespa on Starcraft, and e-Sport as a whole.
Also, i am extremely doubtful that Blizz's action will benefit the e-Sport scene as a whole. This looks even more ridiculous since Blizz has been singing "for the future of e-Sport" for a good while now.
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On December 08 2010 10:31 KeepYaCoolBro wrote: Kespa who? Who needs Kespa? I certainly don't. I watch great games on GOMTv and there is enough free streaming of quality matches going on. Some power hungry old game playing Korean group wants to dictate the "scene" is just laughable to me. Get off it. There are pro SC2 teams and leagues formed and playing. The train has already left and it looks like KeSpa is trying to catch a running train at this point. Anyone notice how contrite it sounded, yet how many times did they tell you of "10 years". Move on, SC1 is an old lovable game, but the future is SC2. KeSpa is an idiotic organization.
I watch both SC1 and SC2, SC1 is much more entertaining. New does not equal better.
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I find it amusing that KeSPA and Blizzard are attracting all this attention over the Starcraft II intellectual property while the Chinese government is quietly endorsing (at least quiet on this side of the ocean) a major, major Warcraft III tournament and nobody has a word to say about it.
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On December 13 2010 18:15 MichaelJLowell wrote: I find it amusing that KeSPA and Blizzard are attracting all this attention over the Starcraft II intellectual property while the Chinese government is quietly endorsing (at least quiet on this side of the ocean) a major, major Warcraft III tournament and nobody has a word to say about it. I belive the law in China regarding IP is different than in South Korea, and thus is a lost cause for Blizzard.
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