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On April 09 2014 08:08 oneofthem wrote: wizards should try out other spells. frozen orb is not all that the class has to offer, far from it. people are complaining on battle.net that arcane is too strong now....
it appears only the fire builds are safe! probably because its so fucking hard to get cindercoat and magefist.
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Someone that loves the arcane and/or fire builds should sell us on them! I saw a bunch of discussion in the last few pages on arcane stuff, but an overall recap and more importantly any cutoffs/pieces that make or break the build would be awesome! I'm bored of FOrb, so I wouldn't mind trying new stuff even if FOrb is still viable lol.
Same with fire. The fire build actually sounds really fun but how reliant on Mirrorball or other legendaries is it?
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On April 09 2014 08:22 Duka08 wrote: Someone that loves the arcane and/or fire builds should sell us on them! I saw a bunch of discussion in the last few pages on arcane stuff, but an overall recap and more importantly any cutoffs/pieces that make or break the build would be awesome! I'm bored of FOrb, so I wouldn't mind trying new stuff even if FOrb is still viable lol.
Same with fire. The fire build actually sounds really fun but how reliant on Mirrorball or other legendaries is it? my char.
http://us.battle.net/d3/en/profile/dAPhREAk-1843/hero/3929813
skills disint + entropy does 649% weapon dmg as arcane. archon is archon. add +15% dmg with force weapon add +10% dmg with sparkflint add +15% dmg with audacity add +10% dmg with unwavering will +20% CDR with evocation (for archon) -17% dmg from blue bc you are in the enemies' face all of the time.
items +63% arcane dmg from SoJ, andys, custerin wristguards, trium +27% dmg to elites from SoJ.
i dont have, but you can add +disint dmg on weapon and armor. you can also add +arcane on ammy and i think gloves. slorak's has insane disint dmg (up to 30% i think).
CDR on helm and shoulders (20.5%)
i can keep disintegrate up most of the time. the rare times i cant, i pop shock pulse (which also does arcane dmg) for ap regen. if i see an elite, i pop archon.
i find arcane insane against elites and big hp monsters, but not so great against simple trash and things that run or fly away (you lose ap).
i like arcane wiz. if i ever get a cindercoat and magefist, i may try fire builds though.
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Having finally been able to test out forb, I must say that the complaints about the nerf are somewhat justified due to the fact it goes beyond a simple decrease in radius:
-Chill duration has been reduced to the point that it is no longer worth it to use Cold Blooded (swap it for Elemental Exposure and you'll notice a difference, though it's not nearly as effective as Cold Blooded was pre-nerf). Chill duration has also been reduced to the point where forb is not particularly useful in slowing down mobs.
-AP regeneration has been reduced thanks to the Electrocute/Prodigy nerf. It's now actually more frustrating than it is fun to use forb due to its high resource cost.
-Crits have apparently been nerfed. I tried aiming dead-center at monsters, but I no matter how much and how hard I tried, I still couldn't get ticks to reach half the amount of damage I used to do. Might just be me, though... but I have seen others complain about this as well.
So I then switched over to Arcane Torrent and wow... it's infinitely better. It was already arguably better before the nerf, but now there is no question about it. Not to mention how CDR Archon remains untouched and ultra powerful. Way to encourage build diversity, Blizzard.
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On April 09 2014 09:27 Masheyoon wrote: Having finally been able to test out forb, I must say that the complaints about the nerf are somewhat justified due to the fact it goes beyond a simple decrease in radius:
-Chill duration has been reduced to the point that it is no longer worth it to use Cold Blooded (swap it for Elemental Exposure and you'll notice a difference, though it's not nearly as effective as Cold Blooded was pre-nerf). Chill duration has also been reduced to the point where forb is not particularly useful in slowing down mobs.
-AP regeneration has been reduced thanks to the Electrocute/Prodigy nerf. It's now actually more frustrating than it is fun to use forb due to its high resource cost.
-Crits have apparently been nerfed. I tried aiming dead-center at monsters, but I no matter how much and how hard I tried, I still couldn't get ticks to reach half the amount of damage I used to do. Might just be me, though... but I have seen others complain about this as well.
So I then switched over to Arcane Torrent and wow... it's infinitely better. It was already arguably better before the nerf, but now there is no question about it. Not to mention how CDR Archon remains untouched and ultra powerful. Way to encourage build diversity, Blizzard. - The chill duration thing sounds.... strange. And unnecessary. Either an undocumented change or a new bug.
- The AP gen of Electrocute/Prodigy was nerfed by about 33%, so that's quite a bit. Was wondering how painful it'd feel.
- Are you sure crits have been nerfed? Or was the ACTUAL bug they fixed with FOrb that it now does half the damage it did pre-patch? People used to say frequently that FOrb was doing twice the intended damage for some reason, but I always thought that might just have been the fact that the "explosion" damage was just easy to score most of the time, hence why they nerfed the AoE. If the ACTUAL bug they fixed was that FOrb WAS doing double damage for some hidden reason, then the additional changes to AoE and such will probably hurt even more haha. Will need to keep an eye on other people's research.
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Frozen Orb was doing damage 3 times (source: http://eu.battle.net/d3/en/forum/topic/9938503901 ), it could be that one of these steps got removed so that FO now works like other runes (half the damage while it passes through mobs and half when it explodes). Just a speculation (patch isn't live on EU), although it could explain the smaller numbers.
I still don't know how I'm going to play, I tried some arcane build but nothing seemed on par with frozen orb.
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On April 09 2014 08:16 dAPhREAk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 08:08 oneofthem wrote: wizards should try out other spells. frozen orb is not all that the class has to offer, far from it. people are complaining on battle.net that arcane is too strong now.... it appears only the fire builds are safe! probably because its so fucking hard to get cindercoat and magefist.
Ahahaha, really? I've had like 4 Magefists drop for me since patch 2.0! Now if only I can transmute those into the new IK or Earth set...
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I actually decided to uninstall the game. Blizzard's poor decisions have only lead to limiting build diversity and discouraging players from investing in builds out of fear that they would be forced to backtrack said investment.
I don't mind forb being nerfed, just as I didn't mind the 1.0.8 WW barb getting nerfed, but as per usual, they nerfed the skill to the point of being tedious and frustrating and overall not optimal to use. It's not my idea of fun.
Thanks, Blizzard, but no thanks.
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Caldeum1976 Posts
On April 09 2014 10:59 Masheyoon wrote: I actually decided to uninstall the game. Blizzard's poor decisions have only lead to limiting build diversity and discouraging players from investing in builds out of fear that they would be forced to backtrack said investment.
I don't mind forb being nerfed, just as I didn't mind the 1.0.8 WW barb getting nerfed, but as per usual, they nerfed the skill to the point of being tedious and frustrating and overall not optimal to use. It's not my idea of fun.
Thanks, Blizzard, but no thanks. Back before 2.0.1 every wizard was either CM/WW or archon, with almost no diversity at all besides some random sleetstorm builds and stuff like that. But now there are several common builds plus many other possibilities and they nerf one a little bit and they are "limiting build diversity"? This just isn't the case here.
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On April 09 2014 11:11 Valiver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 10:59 Masheyoon wrote: I actually decided to uninstall the game. Blizzard's poor decisions have only lead to limiting build diversity and discouraging players from investing in builds out of fear that they would be forced to backtrack said investment.
I don't mind forb being nerfed, just as I didn't mind the 1.0.8 WW barb getting nerfed, but as per usual, they nerfed the skill to the point of being tedious and frustrating and overall not optimal to use. It's not my idea of fun.
Thanks, Blizzard, but no thanks. Back before 2.0.1 every wizard was either CM/WW or archon, with almost no diversity at all besides some random sleetstorm builds and stuff like that. But now there are several common builds plus many other possibilities and they nerf one a little bit and they are "limiting build diversity"? This just isn't the case here.
The problem is that they didn't nerf it by a little bit due to the reasons I mentioned in my above post. It was a significant enough nerf to render it unenjoyable. Like I said, I don't mind nerfing it down a bit, but they went overboard by nerfing its damage, seriously nerfing its AoE, reduced chill duration, and to top it all off, greatly reduced two AP generating skills that were really only useful for forb. It's just not fun anymore, and it's not fun being forced to change the way I like to play every time Blizzard releases a patch.
They limited build diversity because there's no longer a reason to chose forb over arcane torrent at the moment. It's much more powerful and not as tedious.
Really, the biggest issue, as I also mentioned, is that Blizzard only discourages investing time in a single build. There's also the matter that they don't release complete info on all the changes they make (Mirror Ball, for example, was nerfed but Blizzard didn't even mention it. That's unprofessional in my opinion).
EDIT: Apparently this nerf was an unintentional over nerf:
I did some testing with Frozen Orb compared to the other orbs on a zombie target in act 1.
The 15 yard radius that it clearly states that it should be doing is not functioning, I can use a Arcane Orb - Spark and it clearly hits for 15 yards whereas I have to shoot my Frozen orb directly on or pretty much clipping the zombie as it explodes to get the explosion part of the Move.
I agree that it was far stronger than intended but now it doesn't even feel like it is exploding in a 15 yard radius for the explosion portion of the damage, feels more like it was unintentionally over nerfed.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i was running this fire build on my wiz with wand of woh. it's pretty ok for farming lower torment very fast.
however, soem of the fire builds rely on having cooldown reduction from the empower shrine, and that has been nerfed
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YES! I'VE FINALLY GOTTEN A LEVEL 70 MOONLIGHT WARD!
Since ROS started, been using my level 60 version, been spamming all my bloodshards on Kadala and she finally rewarded me with not 1, but 2 moonlight ward at one go. I ended up salvaging the poorer one, kept my current one which has 318% wpn dmg when exploding.
My melee wizard build is in pretty much full swing, im just lacking a Thunderfury/Wand of RoH & the pox pants for more damage. Probably should throw in a andarials for even more free damage off items.
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On April 09 2014 11:33 Masheyoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 11:11 Valiver wrote:On April 09 2014 10:59 Masheyoon wrote: I actually decided to uninstall the game. Blizzard's poor decisions have only lead to limiting build diversity and discouraging players from investing in builds out of fear that they would be forced to backtrack said investment.
I don't mind forb being nerfed, just as I didn't mind the 1.0.8 WW barb getting nerfed, but as per usual, they nerfed the skill to the point of being tedious and frustrating and overall not optimal to use. It's not my idea of fun.
Thanks, Blizzard, but no thanks. Back before 2.0.1 every wizard was either CM/WW or archon, with almost no diversity at all besides some random sleetstorm builds and stuff like that. But now there are several common builds plus many other possibilities and they nerf one a little bit and they are "limiting build diversity"? This just isn't the case here. The problem is that they didn't nerf it by a little bit due to the reasons I mentioned in my above post. It was a significant enough nerf to render it unenjoyable. Like I said, I don't mind nerfing it down a bit, but they went overboard by nerfing its damage, seriously nerfing its AoE, reduced chill duration, and to top it all off, greatly reduced two AP generating skills that were really only useful for forb. It's just not fun anymore, and it's not fun being forced to change the way I like to play every time Blizzard releases a patch. They limited build diversity because there's no longer a reason to chose forb over arcane torrent at the moment. It's much more powerful and not as tedious. Really, the biggest issue, as I also mentioned, is that Blizzard only discourages investing time in a single build. There's also the matter that they don't release complete info on all the changes they make (Mirror Ball, for example, was nerfed but Blizzard didn't even mention it. That's unprofessional in my opinion). EDIT: Apparently this nerf was an unintentional over nerf: Show nested quote +I did some testing with Frozen Orb compared to the other orbs on a zombie target in act 1.
The 15 yard radius that it clearly states that it should be doing is not functioning, I can use a Arcane Orb - Spark and it clearly hits for 15 yards whereas I have to shoot my Frozen orb directly on or pretty much clipping the zombie as it explodes to get the explosion part of the Move.
I agree that it was far stronger than intended but now it doesn't even feel like it is exploding in a 15 yard radius for the explosion portion of the damage, feels more like it was unintentionally over nerfed.
The nerf to arcane generation was entirely warranted, no other class could fill their resource bulb as quickly as a wizard could. Your post proves that you think you're being reasonable but you're just being fickle. There are vastly more builds now than before so you are categorically and objectively wrong when you say "limited build diversity". Bringing Frozen Orb in line with nearly every other class build is fair.
Maybe now you'll need to use a bit of strategy instead of mindlessly pressing your right-mouse button and killing everything on the screen.
But then again, if you're uninstalling a game just because one of the simplest and most OP builds was nerfed, the community is better off without you.
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I suppose I'll be a voice of reason and say that I think FOrb is still strong. The AoE on the bonus damage definitely feels smaller, but not too small that it ruins the build. You just need to space orbs better. The bigger hit is with AP regen, and that's going to hurt quite a few builds so that's not specifically a FOrb nerf of course.
I tried disintegrate/archon build daphreak, but didn't care for it. It feels pretty strong, even for being poorly itemized (since I was just giving it a shot and only re-rolled a few things). But my main issue is that I don't like the lack of mobility. I like the ranged playstyle and blink/wormhole for speeding up runs. Thanks for the details though! I'll keep it in mind if anything great drops that might synergize with it. I might also try messing around with it with a different rune on Archon, since I wasn't using it on cooldown usually depending on mob density and quest.
I'm really hoping to get a couple of the relevant legendaries for a fire build (especially Mirrorball!) to try that out, because it sounds very fun. For now I'll stick with FOrb, which, despite the nerf, feels like my runs are maybe 10% slower at worst. Not a huge deal, really. AP regen nerf hurts the most, but that's warranted probably.
Anyone with insight into Arcane Torrent builds? Specifically which rune(s) and what playstyle makes it best? I had some fun with it leveling, but I'm confused as to what would make it so strong for T1+
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
if you get the archon set then you'll have mobility in archon form. and with enough cdr it can be pretty imba.
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So I spent a shit ton of gold rerolling my items to build for cold/frozen orb.
I feel like I wanna stop playing for a while now.
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From my understanding, arcane torrent is mostly based on the cascade rune where your attacks can proc more attacks. Arcane torrent build is best vs packs that can be grouped up & bosses, but pretty trash vs trash mobs. If you consistently run with a pull monk in your party, arcane torrent is one of the best spells in terms of damage/ap. My friend and I have tested it out extensively and it is actually good in those situations... monks and fellow wizards with blackhole are your best friends. If you do not have those, I personally find arcane torrent (cascade) to be bad for soloing.
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On April 09 2014 13:20 Dakkas wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 11:33 Masheyoon wrote:On April 09 2014 11:11 Valiver wrote:On April 09 2014 10:59 Masheyoon wrote: I actually decided to uninstall the game. Blizzard's poor decisions have only lead to limiting build diversity and discouraging players from investing in builds out of fear that they would be forced to backtrack said investment.
I don't mind forb being nerfed, just as I didn't mind the 1.0.8 WW barb getting nerfed, but as per usual, they nerfed the skill to the point of being tedious and frustrating and overall not optimal to use. It's not my idea of fun.
Thanks, Blizzard, but no thanks. Back before 2.0.1 every wizard was either CM/WW or archon, with almost no diversity at all besides some random sleetstorm builds and stuff like that. But now there are several common builds plus many other possibilities and they nerf one a little bit and they are "limiting build diversity"? This just isn't the case here. The problem is that they didn't nerf it by a little bit due to the reasons I mentioned in my above post. It was a significant enough nerf to render it unenjoyable. Like I said, I don't mind nerfing it down a bit, but they went overboard by nerfing its damage, seriously nerfing its AoE, reduced chill duration, and to top it all off, greatly reduced two AP generating skills that were really only useful for forb. It's just not fun anymore, and it's not fun being forced to change the way I like to play every time Blizzard releases a patch. They limited build diversity because there's no longer a reason to chose forb over arcane torrent at the moment. It's much more powerful and not as tedious. Really, the biggest issue, as I also mentioned, is that Blizzard only discourages investing time in a single build. There's also the matter that they don't release complete info on all the changes they make (Mirror Ball, for example, was nerfed but Blizzard didn't even mention it. That's unprofessional in my opinion). EDIT: Apparently this nerf was an unintentional over nerf: I did some testing with Frozen Orb compared to the other orbs on a zombie target in act 1.
The 15 yard radius that it clearly states that it should be doing is not functioning, I can use a Arcane Orb - Spark and it clearly hits for 15 yards whereas I have to shoot my Frozen orb directly on or pretty much clipping the zombie as it explodes to get the explosion part of the Move.
I agree that it was far stronger than intended but now it doesn't even feel like it is exploding in a 15 yard radius for the explosion portion of the damage, feels more like it was unintentionally over nerfed. The nerf to arcane generation was entirely warranted, no other class could fill their resource bulb as quickly as a wizard could. Your post proves that you think you're being reasonable but you're just being fickle. There are vastly more builds now than before so you are categorically and objectively wrong when you say "limited build diversity". Bringing Frozen Orb in line with nearly every other class build is fair. Maybe now you'll need to use a bit of strategy instead of mindlessly pressing your right-mouse button and killing everything on the screen. But then again, if you're uninstalling a game just because one of the simplest and most OP builds was nerfed, the community is better off without you.
I explained in that very post that you quoted that I don't at all mind a FOrb nerf, but the issue was that Blizzard yet again (just as they had done with the barb) overnerfed it to the point where people had to consider rerolling their item stats and consider a different build.
And the issue is that the skill was not brought in line, but actually lowered due to the fact that its now-lowered 15 yard radius doesn't even work (it's much smaller than the actual FOrb animation). Nerfing radius was definitely a good idea, sure, but not to the point where the animation itself lies to you. The chill nerf is also really big because the benefit of slowing down mobs is no longer there. You see, nerfing some of these things would be ok, but when you combine all of this with the AP regen nerf (which I will agree was needed, albeit again, 33% is a lot considering FOrb's cost), the skill was rendered frustrating.
But even then, I did not in any way state that I was quitting the game because an OP skill was nerfed. I quit because of how disappointed and discouraged I was thanks to Blizzard's tendency to cause players to backtrack their investments and the fact that they 1) don't admit to nerfing and instead attempt to cover it up by calling it a "bug fix" (what was the point to the PTR again?) and 2) don't provide complete info on their nerfs (MM was nerfed but Blizzard did not mention it, among others things of the sort).
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On April 09 2014 20:16 Masheyoon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2014 13:20 Dakkas wrote:On April 09 2014 11:33 Masheyoon wrote:On April 09 2014 11:11 Valiver wrote:On April 09 2014 10:59 Masheyoon wrote: I actually decided to uninstall the game. Blizzard's poor decisions have only lead to limiting build diversity and discouraging players from investing in builds out of fear that they would be forced to backtrack said investment.
I don't mind forb being nerfed, just as I didn't mind the 1.0.8 WW barb getting nerfed, but as per usual, they nerfed the skill to the point of being tedious and frustrating and overall not optimal to use. It's not my idea of fun.
Thanks, Blizzard, but no thanks. Back before 2.0.1 every wizard was either CM/WW or archon, with almost no diversity at all besides some random sleetstorm builds and stuff like that. But now there are several common builds plus many other possibilities and they nerf one a little bit and they are "limiting build diversity"? This just isn't the case here. The problem is that they didn't nerf it by a little bit due to the reasons I mentioned in my above post. It was a significant enough nerf to render it unenjoyable. Like I said, I don't mind nerfing it down a bit, but they went overboard by nerfing its damage, seriously nerfing its AoE, reduced chill duration, and to top it all off, greatly reduced two AP generating skills that were really only useful for forb. It's just not fun anymore, and it's not fun being forced to change the way I like to play every time Blizzard releases a patch. They limited build diversity because there's no longer a reason to chose forb over arcane torrent at the moment. It's much more powerful and not as tedious. Really, the biggest issue, as I also mentioned, is that Blizzard only discourages investing time in a single build. There's also the matter that they don't release complete info on all the changes they make (Mirror Ball, for example, was nerfed but Blizzard didn't even mention it. That's unprofessional in my opinion). EDIT: Apparently this nerf was an unintentional over nerf: I did some testing with Frozen Orb compared to the other orbs on a zombie target in act 1.
The 15 yard radius that it clearly states that it should be doing is not functioning, I can use a Arcane Orb - Spark and it clearly hits for 15 yards whereas I have to shoot my Frozen orb directly on or pretty much clipping the zombie as it explodes to get the explosion part of the Move.
I agree that it was far stronger than intended but now it doesn't even feel like it is exploding in a 15 yard radius for the explosion portion of the damage, feels more like it was unintentionally over nerfed. The nerf to arcane generation was entirely warranted, no other class could fill their resource bulb as quickly as a wizard could. Your post proves that you think you're being reasonable but you're just being fickle. There are vastly more builds now than before so you are categorically and objectively wrong when you say "limited build diversity". Bringing Frozen Orb in line with nearly every other class build is fair. Maybe now you'll need to use a bit of strategy instead of mindlessly pressing your right-mouse button and killing everything on the screen. But then again, if you're uninstalling a game just because one of the simplest and most OP builds was nerfed, the community is better off without you. I explained in that very post that you quoted that I don't at all mind a FOrb nerf, but the issue was that Blizzard yet again (just as they had done with the barb) overnerfed it to the point where people had to consider rerolling their item stats and consider a different build. And the issue is that the skill was not brought in line, but actually lowered due to the fact that its now-lowered 15 yard radius doesn't even work (it's much smaller than the actual FOrb animation). Nerfing radius was definitely a good idea, sure, but not to the point where the animation itself lies to you. The chill nerf is also really big because the benefit of slowing down mobs is no longer there. You see, nerfing some of these things would be ok, but when you combine all of this with the AP regen nerf (which I will agree was needed, albeit again, 33% is a lot considering FOrb's cost), the skill was rendered frustrating. But even then, I did not in any way state that I was quitting the game because an OP skill was nerfed. I quit because of how disappointed and discouraged I was thanks to Blizzard's tendency to cause players to backtrack their investments and the fact that they 1) don't admit to nerfing and instead attempt to cover it up by calling it a "bug fix" (what was the point to the PTR again?) and 2) don't provide complete info on their nerfs (MM was nerfed but Blizzard did not mention it, among others things of the sort).
That's even more hilarious you'd even bring up the Barb nerf. I'm assuming you're talking about the perma-WotB being nerfed because Barbs didn't receive any other notable nerfs. If you're disappointed by perma-WotB being nerfed simply means you're a really fickle player. I'm not even going to bother arguing with you if you can't see how broken perma-WotB is because the community is truly better off without you.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Sigh, it's Nether Tentacles all over again. One rune does double the damage of any other, everyone knows it(!), it gets nerfed, people start to CRY. Then, trail of cinders (people really believed it was ok to kill elite packs with a mobility skill). Now, FO/electrocute.
People, face it, FO is like the most dumbfire skill in the entire game, it should have either high cost or low damage as a drawback. Just from the utility standpoint it's miles ahead of any other arcane orb rune so it should never ever top them in damage. Even goddamn multishot has a cone AoE and takes a braincell or two to align.
On April 09 2014 15:46 Mithhaike wrote: From my understanding, arcane torrent is mostly based on the cascade rune where your attacks can proc more attacks. Arcane torrent build is best vs packs that can be grouped up & bosses, but pretty trash vs trash mobs. If you consistently run with a pull monk in your party, arcane torrent is one of the best spells in terms of damage/ap. My friend and I have tested it out extensively and it is actually good in those situations... monks and fellow wizards with blackhole are your best friends. If you do not have those, I personally find arcane torrent (cascade) to be bad for soloing.
Arcane torrent is mostly based around almost 600% (I'll round it to 600 ok?) weapon damage in a large AoE. Cascade isn't something that makes or breaks builds, although it's damage is rather deceptive. From what I understood, the skill itself ticks twice as fast as your AS (dealing it's 600% damage in two instances of 300%), however, the damage from cascade is the damage of the missile itself, so it deals more than double the damage of a single AT missile. I have 450k damage on my wiz (with buffs to arcane tho) and I normally see 3.5 mil crits on AT with all the buffs, but occasionally 10 mil crits appear, apparently from cascade.
AT's worst case is a nephalem rift that has groups of 3 white mobs scattered all over the place, since you have to setup your cast every time. AT's best case is a horde of mobs with above average HP that take 3-4 missiles to kill each. Treat arcane torrent like the old gloom/spike trap demon hunter - terrible for speed clearing, progressively better as monster density and killing time increases.
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