why?
Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 76
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We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
why? | ||
Manit0u
Poland17046 Posts
On April 23 2015 09:44 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Regarding the prequels, I have to repost this link: http://www.starwarsringtheory.com/ring-composition-chiasmus-hidden-artistry-star-wars-prequels/ because of how amazingly thought out this theory is. Lucas knew exactly what he was doing with the prequels and it paid off. You could even make the argument that all the bells and whistles was to keep the kids entertained because of the more subtle plot (especially Episode I, which is all about how Palpatine house-of-cards his way into the Chancellor's office). Please... Having a good and deep plot, wheels within wheels and what not doesn't help you at all if you can't present it in a coherent way. Just look at the article you linked - it took 9 pages of pretty much academic text with 15 references (some to actual academic material) to explain the basic premise behind the prequels? There's subtle and there's obfuscated bullshit. Besides all that, even if it was all presented in a way that you could actually grasp at least some of it during a single viewing of the prequel trilogy, it would come to naught as the viewer is constantly assailed with: a) horrible CGI b) totally unnecessary scenes c) bad dialogue d) shitty camera work e) even more horrible CGI f) bullshit subplots that bring nothing to the main plot, only muddy it further and discourage the viewer even more g) unnecessary kid service (really don't know how to call stuff that's there to keep 8-year olds entertained) h) horrible lapses in logic and reason i) some badly cast actors j) shallow and empty characters k) no real protagonist to associate with and root for. I agree that the big meta-plot in the prequels was OK, but it was way too veiled, obscured by all the dung on the screen and thus hidden from the viewer. Perhaps people would rate the prequel trilogy better if it actually focused on the right parts of the plot, was filmed properly and so on. As it is, it's just 3 shitty movies that are painful to watch and age very badly due to overuse of green screen, CGI effects and advances in technology which make it all look worse by the minute. Edit: And just to prove my point, here's one of the comments for the article (comment #58) This is all very interesting and well-thought out and presented – my problem is that it’s far less impressive having not been constructed as such all at once. Lucas had only the vaguest outline of the bigger picture when he eventually decided it would be a six (or potentially nine)-part story and he had started in the middle. With Episodes IV, V and VI already made it was pretty easy to go back 15 years later and make the structure fit as you’ve proposed (and basically proven) it does. In fact, I’d go so far as to say it was EASIER to do that way – he practically had the outline for the prequel trilogy all laid out in front of him if he was just following the patterns already established by the original trilogy. “Ok, so Jedi started this way, I’m going to start Menace the same way but with these different characters/settings” etc. I fail to see how that’s such a great thing. And let’s face it, the fact that the plot and character details create a nice pattern does not make up for poorly-written dialogue, poorly delivered by wooden actors being poorly directed as we got in the PT. Not to mention the whole prequel idea is an inexcusably stupid way to present the story. Where’s the dramatic tension? Anakin becomes Darth Vader. The Emperor rises to ultimate power. The Jedi fall. Obi-Wan and Yoda live to teach Anakin’s son, Luke. Boba Fett does…something or other. I’m trying to decide in which order to eventually show these movies to my son and there’s no right answer – each trilogy ruins things about the other, neither does much to particularly help the other (the most egregious omission being not to give the audience a real reason to care about Alderaan – if any world should have been made familiar to the audience it was Alderaan – would have made its destruction in ANH so much more powerful). If I show him the PT first all the great reveals in the OT are spoiled. If I show him the OT first we know pretty much every outcome of every event in the PT. Don’t get me wrong, I enjoyed the read and I appreciate that you’ve shown there may be more artistic nuance there than meets the eye but it’s not enough to convince me that the PT aren’t bad movies when they clearly are on so many fundamental levels. That's why my kids will not watch the PT. | ||
Stratos_speAr
United States6959 Posts
Please tell me I didn't. | ||
shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 24 2015 08:13 Manit0u wrote: Please... Having a good and deep plot, wheels within wheels and what not doesn't help you at all if you can't present it in a coherent way. Just look at the article you linked - it took 9 pages of pretty much academic text with 15 references (some to actual academic material) to explain the basic premise behind the prequels? There's subtle and there's obfuscated bullshit. Besides all that, even if it was all presented in a way that you could actually grasp at least some of it during a single viewing of the prequel trilogy, it would come to naught as the viewer is constantly assailed with: a) horrible CGI The CGI's actually aged pretty well for early 2000s technology. It doesn't look out of place today, other than the trend back to less reliance on computers. b) totally unnecessary scenes I'd argue there wasn't enough. The deleted scenes in Episode III actually paint a really nice political picture of the situation that isn't quite visible in the final movie. c) bad dialogue I'll concede this one. Lucas wrote shitty lines. d) shitty camera work Set design was too closed. Cinematography itself was great. e) even more horrible CGI f) bullshit subplots that bring nothing to the main plot, only muddy it further and discourage the viewer even more Podracing carried on for a bit too long but it did show Anakin as a ridiculously good if not yet technically adept pilot. Which comes into effect at the end of the movie. g) unnecessary kid service (really don't know how to call stuff that's there to keep 8-year olds entertained) A legion of the Emperor's "best troops" also got beat by teddy bears. h) horrible lapses in logic and reason Do refresh my memory. I'd actually say the rash actions in Sith were all warranted, with Anakin's psyche dropping down a slippery slope, and Mace reacting with haste, which was precedented in II (going from "keepers of the peace" to violently decapitating Jango, showing the Jedi losing their clarity), and also a bit understandable when he realizes their head of state has been the Sith Lord all along. I might've missed the rashness in the first two, though. i) some badly cast actors Stems from Lucas's shitty scriptwriting, I'd argue the actors did the best with the lines they were given. j) shallow and empty characters I still contend Anakin has a lot more to bring to the table than Luke. k) no real protagonist to associate with and root for. Which is kind of the point. There is no longer good or evil. This is a trilogy about the onset of confusion, the Dark Side, and people's interactions with and transformations from power. I agree that the big meta-plot in the prequels was OK, but it was way too veiled, obscured by all the dung on the screen and thus hidden from the viewer. Perhaps people would rate the prequel trilogy better if it actually focused on the right parts of the plot, was filmed properly and so on. As it is, it's just 3 shitty movies that are painful to watch and age very badly due to overuse of green screen, CGI effects and advances in technology which make it all look worse by the minute. I'll meet you halfway here and say there was way too much shit going on which was great for little kids like me watching Sith in the theater, but now it becomes a wall of graphics. Lucas definitely overcompensated here, as the main plot of the prequels is basically a combination of post-Patriot Act America (possibly unintentional given that the trilogy started in 1999, but the allusions really materialize first in 2002's Clones [Jon Stewart even commented on it IIRC] and then in 2005's Sith) and Hitler's rise to power. He tried to put in something for the kids/easily amused, and went too far with it. Edit: And just to prove my point, here's one of the comments for the article (comment #58) That's why my kids will not watch the PT. The commenter brings up a lot of good points, although it didn't help that the RotS trailer announced Anakin became Darth Vader. I didn't see or know much about the originals until 2006 and that really does color the way I perceive the prequels because I saw them first, as opposed to people who saw the originals first and many of whom view the prequels a lot more critically. All I can say is, show your kids the originals, tell them there's a 1-3 but you don't like them and give them the same reasons you gave me, but do let them give it a shot. And I guess we'll see how 7 goes. As for viewing order (mostly in response to comment #58), rings notwithstanding, 4-5-2-3-6 is a fantastic order. I've had a lot of success with this order (and similarly, mentioning there's a 1 but I'm not a big fan and it's not really necessary to understand the rest of the 6) and people have said mixed things about 2 but for the most part liked the rest, and the 5-2 3-6 interplay. | ||
Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On April 24 2015 11:21 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: As for viewing order (mostly in response to comment #58), rings notwithstanding, 4-5-2-3-6 is a fantastic order. I've had a lot of success with this order (and similarly, mentioning there's a 1 but I'm not a big fan and it's not really necessary to understand the rest of the 6) and people have said mixed things about 2 but for the most part liked the rest, and the 5-2 3-6 interplay. 4-5-6 is correct viewing order. Then maybe 1 & 3 of the Indiana Jones series. Or maybe Blade Runner next. Could give more exhaustive rebuttal, and might if I can find a big enough coffee first. | ||
Falling
Canada10904 Posts
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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Manit0u
Poland17046 Posts
On April 24 2015 11:21 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: The CGI's actually aged pretty well for early 2000s technology. It doesn't look out of place today, other than the trend back to less reliance on computers. When was the last time you tried seeing the movies? CGI is bad if you can tell it's CGI and all the time 90% of the stuff on screen in PT is CGI... Ruins the immersion and any notion of realism (I know that realism is much to ask for in a sci-fi movie, but even if the sets don't feel tangible then how can people act in this environment and bring credible performance?). I'd argue there wasn't enough. The deleted scenes in Episode III actually paint a really nice political picture of the situation that isn't quite visible in the final movie. The fact that they included bad scenes while cutting out the meaningful ones pretty much speaks for itself. Set design was too closed. Cinematography itself was great. By great cinematography you speak of 2 cameras alternating static shots at character faces when they're talking? It's The Bold and the Beautiful level of directing and cinematography... Podracing carried on for a bit too long but it did show Anakin as a ridiculously good if not yet technically adept pilot. Which comes into effect at the end of the movie. There were many ways to portray that without having to resort to such bullshit. In fact, it would all be much better if they've chosen an older actor for Anakin. He then could actually have some will of his own and make some meaningful decisions. A legion of the Emperor's "best troops" also got beat by teddy bears. Which wasn't half as bad as podracing or Jar Jar and the movie got a lot of flack for that. Do refresh my memory. I'd actually say the rash actions in Sith were all warranted, with Anakin's psyche dropping down a slippery slope, and Mace reacting with haste, which was precedented in II (going from "keepers of the peace" to violently decapitating Jango, showing the Jedi losing their clarity), and also a bit understandable when he realizes their head of state has been the Sith Lord all along. I might've missed the rashness in the first two, though. I wasn't talking about rashness. I actually liked rashness since it goes well with the 'Let your feelings guide you' Jedi philosophy. What I don't get is how dumb some things were (on both sides of the conflict). If you want examples you don't really have to look any further than the entire hidden clone army concept. Stems from Lucas's shitty scriptwriting, I'd argue the actors did the best with the lines they were given. Not really. There wasn't a single point in PT where I would be captivated by the acting (with or without dialogue) and many points that were simply cringeworthy. I still contend Anakin has a lot more to bring to the table than Luke. He had potential to bring more to the table. It was ruined by useless pod racing, Padme romance, entire EP1 of him just kind of being there out of his own volition and randomly thrown into events etc. The character potential there was great, but it was executed horribly. Which is kind of the point. There is no longer good or evil. This is a trilogy about the onset of confusion, the Dark Side, and people's interactions with and transformations from power. Yeah, but you can't really put yourself in the state's shoes, can you? The entire idea of storytelling is to have the characters whose actions and adventures give you a reference point and serve as an anchor to unfolding events. Who is such character in the PT? If Lucas wanted to create a political thriller on a galactic scale then why not make Palpatine be the main character in the series and Jedi being the subplot/force that can potentially undermine his power (pretty much what House of Cards did)? Would make for a much better films in my opinion. On April 24 2015 15:50 shin_toss wrote: 4-5-6 1-2-3 ofc.. theres too much OT hipsterism(lol) I see here It doesn't have to do anything with hipsterism. Watching one trilogy will spoiler and ruin the other one for you. Out of the two, the OT is definitely better quality and filmmaking so I'd rather ruin the worse of the two for myself. | ||
Erasme
Bahamas15893 Posts
each of your points can be applied to the original trilogy | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On April 24 2015 22:12 Erasme wrote: nostalgia glasses each of your points can be applied to the original trilogy That is reductive. | ||
Manit0u
Poland17046 Posts
On April 24 2015 22:12 Erasme wrote: nostalgia glasses each of your points can be applied to the original trilogy Especially the point about there being 90% CGI in each shot... | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On April 24 2015 23:20 Manit0u wrote: Especially the point about there being 90% CGI in each shot... To be fair, the OT is really hard to find without the 90s updates and re-releases. These all had pretty awful CGI replacing most of the puppet work and some practical effects from the original release. I don't think that they have ever released the original cut since the 80s, so most kids growing up on TL saw the song of the Ewoks, and the force ghosts, and the awful Jabba's palace dancing. | ||
[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 24 2015 23:20 Manit0u wrote: Especially the point about there being 90% CGI in each shot... Replace CGI with claymation and puppets. And concerning spoilers, that's why 4-5-2-3-6 works so well. You learn Luke is the son of Vader, then you turn the clock back to 2, where Anakin was 19, you see how he handles everything, then in 3 you learn Palpatine is the Sith Lord, Empire is created, backstory complete, back to Episode 6 (where you meet the Emperor again) and see how it all ends. Jar Jar has like 5 lines in 2 and I don't believe he says a word in 3. I watched all the movies last month and the CGI is pretty seamless. The only noticeable jarring thing was where Grievous does fancy stuff with lightsabers and Obi-Wan just kinda stands there since there's nothing in front of him. Some of the scenes without lines are amazing. The one before Mace goes to kill Palpatine where Anakin and Padme are looking out toward each other says so much without any words. | ||
[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 24 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote: To be fair, the OT is really hard to find without the 90s updates and re-releases. These all had pretty awful CGI replacing most of the puppet work and some practical effects from the original release. I don't think that they have ever released the original cut since the 80s, so most kids growing up on TL saw the song of the Ewoks, and the force ghosts, and the awful Jabba's palace dancing. The original Ewok song was worse IMO | ||
Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On April 24 2015 23:35 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Replace CGI with claymation and puppets. And concerning spoilers, that's why 4-5-2-3-6 works so well. You learn Luke is the son of Vader, then you turn the clock back to 2, where Anakin was 19, you see how he handles everything, then in 3 you learn Palpatine is the Sith Lord, Empire is created, backstory complete, back to Episode 6 (where you meet the Emperor again) and see how it all ends. Jar Jar has like 5 lines in 2 and I don't believe he says a word in 3. I watched all the movies last month and the CGI is pretty seamless. The only noticeable jarring thing was where Grievous does fancy stuff with lightsabers and Obi-Wan just kinda stands there since there's nothing in front of him. Some of the scenes without lines are amazing. The one before Mace goes to kill Palpatine where Anakin and Padme are looking out toward each other says so much without any words. Prequels so bad that in a list of the order to watch them you would miss out one entirely? lol Then again, time is a precious resource. | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
The Ewoks in general were shit. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On April 24 2015 23:22 ThomasjServo wrote: I don't think that they have ever released the original cut since the 80s, so most kids growing up on TL saw the song of the Ewoks, and the force ghosts, and the awful Jabba's palace dancing. Now that IS nostalgia, and it is not really all that important. The only changes that definitively made the episodes worse were "Greedo shot first" and the "NO!" Vader. And while those were bad, they are also kinda trivial. The overall content of the movie is far, far more important than the nitpicks that people like to think makes a movie terrible. | ||
ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On April 24 2015 23:43 LegalLord wrote: Now that IS nostalgia, and it is not really all that important. The only changes that definitively made the episodes worse were "Greedo shot first" and the "NO!" Vader. And while those were bad, they are also kinda trivial. The overall content of the movie is far, far more important than the nitpicks that people like to think makes a movie terrible. All I meant to say is that it would be the likely case as to why Erasme would comment on the shitty CGI from the OT. Otherwise it is just a matter of preference as to do those additions bother you, or not? I find them more distracting than anything, like Lucas wanted to add flame decals to the side of a sporty car but did it with crayon. I get that he wanted to add something, but now I can't stop staring at those decals. | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
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