Star Trek: Into Darkness - Page 18
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trainRiderJ
United States615 Posts
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Jibba
United States22883 Posts
On May 20 2013 23:42 -Archangel- wrote: Went to see this movie yesterday and although the movie is fun (and more fun then ST2009) it is still not real Star Trek. That and lots of plot wholes and stupid scenes make it a fun action flick and not a SF story. + Show Spoiler + While there were definitely holes and I think Khan's personal teleporter was a terrible plot device that will plague the story in the future, I think people are overlooking the many inconsistencies in the earlier movies and series. Time and space were portrayed poorly here, but they were done poorly in First Contact and even in the original series. And unfortunately, this wasn't the first time a superamazinglogicallyinconsistentteleporter has made it into ST. Even Roddenberry changed some things around. So it's true that STID has holes and is at points inconsistent (and I think Trekkies should point them about because that's what science fiction is about), but I think it's wrong to believe that this is something new and only attributable to Abrams. "Real Star Trek" also had plenty of holes and inconsistencies. | ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 21 2013 02:50 Jibba wrote: + Show Spoiler + While there were definitely holes and I think Khan's personal teleporter was a terrible plot device that will plague the story in the future, I think people are overlooking the many inconsistencies in the earlier movies and series. Time and space were portrayed poorly here, but they were done poorly in First Contact and even in the original series. And unfortunately, this wasn't the first time a superamazinglogicallyinconsistentteleporter has made it into ST. Even Roddenberry changed some things around. So it's true that STID has holes and is at points inconsistent (and I think Trekkies should point them about because that's what science fiction is about), but I think it's wrong to believe that this is something new and only attributable to Abrams. "Real Star Trek" also had plenty of holes and inconsistencies. Not nearly as important as + Show Spoiler + Scotty flies a shuttle unmolested to a secret military shipyard where they are making the biggest state of the art starship and does not get detected. Then he proceeds to join a shuttle escort like nobody there can see or count. Later this ridiculous move saves Enterprise from destruction Khan kills 30 Klingons alone with a mix of beam weapons and melee combat but then has problems beating one Vulcan LOL 1 minute of warp speed brings Enterprise from Neutral Zone to Earth LOL. If that was really the case Klingons would have invaded Earth long ago and smashed it in surprise attack the genius mind of Spock cannot predict they would just beam Admirals daughter off the ship when she talks to them although I could Admiral forbids scans of the special torpedoes although he does not know there are people inside, that didn't make sense at all. What could they find if there were no bodies inside, special engines that last longer then normal torpedoes?! | ||
Ryalnos
United States1946 Posts
On May 19 2013 16:51 Gahlo wrote: Part of the big issue with that is the foreshadowing happened during one of the few slow periods of the movie. Fast fast fast fast, take a look at this for a bit, gogogogogogo! Haha, yeah - I chose that moment for a quick run to the bathroom because it seemed like the only chance I'd get... + Show Spoiler + Assuming you refer to the scene that involves the dead tribble/Khan's blood. | ||
Sanctimonius
United Kingdom861 Posts
On May 21 2013 03:04 -Archangel- wrote: Not nearly as important as + Show Spoiler + Scotty flies a shuttle unmolested to a secret military shipyard where they are making the biggest state of the art starship and does not get detected. Then he proceeds to join a shuttle escort like nobody there can see or count. Later this ridiculous move saves Enterprise from destruction Khan kills 30 Klingons alone with a mix of beam weapons and melee combat but then has problems beating one Vulcan LOL 1 minute of warp speed brings Enterprise from Neutral Zone to Earth LOL. If that was really the case Klingons would have invaded Earth long ago and smashed it in surprise attack the genius mind of Spock cannot predict they would just beam Admirals daughter off the ship when she talks to them although I could Admiral forbids scans of the special torpedoes although he does not know there are people inside, that didn't make sense at all. What could they find if there were no bodies inside, special engines that last longer then normal torpedoes?! Meh, the torpedoes didn't bother me that much. + Show Spoiler + I just assumed Khan was lying about the reason he went rogue. Maybe he found out that the bodies of his crew had been moved, unknown to him, as the Admiral was intimidated by his abilities and intelligence and didn't want any others running around. How to get rid of them? Hide them in the very torpedoes designed by Khan, in a nice little dramatic irony, thus Khan kills his own people. Seems like the nice little personal touch the Admiral would appreciate. As for other plot points....yeah. Abrams is the master of lens flare and fun filmmaking, not scriptwriting. Although Spock going Chuck Norris on his ass seemed pretty legit - he kicked the crap out of Kirk in the first one when he was angry. Just made me wish the Romulans were better used as bad guys in the series. And the fight itself was pretty awesome. | ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 21 2013 03:40 Sanctimonius wrote: As for other plot points....yeah. Abrams is the master of lens flare and fun filmmaking, not scriptwriting. Although Spock going Chuck Norris on his ass seemed pretty legit - he kicked the crap out of Kirk in the first one when he was angry. Just made me wish the Romulans were better used as bad guys in the series. And the fight itself was pretty awesome. That is not the same. Kirk didn't even cut Khan when he tried to beat him and managed to lose all his strength while doing so :D | ||
LegalLord
United Kingdom13774 Posts
On May 21 2013 03:40 Sanctimonius wrote: Meh, the torpedoes didn't bother me that much. + Show Spoiler + I just assumed Khan was lying about the reason he went rogue. Maybe he found out that the bodies of his crew had been moved, unknown to him, as the Admiral was intimidated by his abilities and intelligence and didn't want any others running around. How to get rid of them? Hide them in the very torpedoes designed by Khan, in a nice little dramatic irony, thus Khan kills his own people. Seems like the nice little personal touch the Admiral would appreciate. + Show Spoiler + He asked how many torpedoes there were. He suspected it and then had to confirm. | ||
strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + "I'll know if the torpedoes aren't mine." "Vulcans do not lie." *torpedoes are armed, Khan ragequits* + Show Spoiler + also for super future tech those torpedoes sucked ass. 72 of them didn't even blow up a ship from the inside | ||
zoLo
United States5896 Posts
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Fulla
United Kingdom519 Posts
Needless to say he had gone insane by that point | ||
Sanctimonius
United Kingdom861 Posts
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Yoav
United States1874 Posts
On May 21 2013 06:10 Fulla wrote: Khan in the old movie, was much older and had been trapped on adeolate planet for what 20 years? Needless to say he had gone insane by that point It's actually a fun experience to watch Space Seed (TOS Episode introducing Khan) and then Wrath of Khan and then this for a look at the evolution of one story in Star Trek. I liked the movie in spite of the plot holes. Guys, it's bloody Star Trek. How many torpedoes/shuttles did Voyager have? Why are the BoPs so ridiculously huge in "The Defector"? Why exactly don't we use transporters to replicate people of great ability? Does Voyager have a ventral torpedo tube? Why are 1,000 man ships and 40 man ships run by main crews of the same number of people with almost exactly the same ranks? Why don't missed shots that impact inert objects blow them to smithereens, given that a standard photon torpedo has a yield far in excess of 8x our most powerful hydrogen bomb? It was fun, I tried not to sweat the projectile phasers, and enjoyed it. | ||
-Archangel-
Croatia7457 Posts
On May 21 2013 07:42 Yoav wrote: It's actually a fun experience to watch Space Seed (TOS Episode introducing Khan) and then Wrath of Khan and then this for a look at the evolution of one story in Star Trek. I liked the movie in spite of the plot holes. Guys, it's bloody Star Trek. How many torpedoes/shuttles did Voyager have? Why are the BoPs so ridiculously huge in "The Defector"? Why exactly don't we use transporters to replicate people of great ability? Does Voyager have a ventral torpedo tube? Why are 1,000 man ships and 40 man ships run by main crews of the same number of people with almost exactly the same ranks? Why don't missed shots that impact inert objects blow them to smithereens, given that a standard photon torpedo has a yield far in excess of 8x our most powerful hydrogen bomb? It was fun, I tried not to sweat the projectile phasers, and enjoyed it. Let me try. Who cares, Voyager sucked anyways. What is BoP? For same reason why genetic manipulation is not allowed. Again, Voyager sucked, who cares. Because 1000 man ships had crew family on board and that is why they were 1000 man ships. Maybe because they are no longer armed and just do the impact explosion. | ||
dcsoda
United States583 Posts
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EnterpriseE1701E
37 Posts
On May 07 2013 05:40 EnterpriseE1701E wrote: Saw it last night. I just want to say I told you so.Below are spoilers, and I'm 99% certain this is how it is going to go down. My chief contention is that the overwhelming majority of details about the movie are contained within the trailers or other, exceptionally short leaked clips. + Show Spoiler + If you take a look at the third English trailer, around the 0:40 second mark, you will see two figures walking out of a room which seems to be littered with coffins. This, I believe, is intentional on the part of whoever designed the trailer, but highly misleading. You will note prior to this scene, we saw Cumberbatch's character attack a number of what seems to be Starfleet officials in what looks like a meeting room. The train of thought is supposed to take us from attack -> coffins (and with one individual being buried with a starfleet flag on top, at the beginning of the trailer, this suggestion seems all the more likely). However, I want to argue that this is an incorrect interpretation. There are three big things which give that these tubes are not coffins. 1) There is no starfleet insignia, no starfleet emblem, and no starfleet flag on these "coffins." Instead, they are perfeclty non-descript-- something which seems highly unlikely, if we believe that the people killed were starfleet officials, and they were on Earth (no shortage of materials to make such a coffin). 2) These tubes have glass on top of them, such that you could see the people inside. We HAVE seen designs similar to this (I'm thinking of the TNG episode in which the crew goes into stasis to get around the lack of REM sleep in a given section of space). I would suggest these are similar to those sorts of instruments instead, such that we have a large quantity of people in cryogenic storage. 3)To back this up further, the glass seems frosted. Short and sweet. I hope it becomes obvious where this is going. In addition to the movie having an entire crew locked in cryogenic stasis, there are several other compelling facts which make the plot of this story very obvious. The next comes from from a more recent clip on youtube, no more than 1 minute in length. Cumberbatch's character says that there are "72" reasons why Kirk should look in his hold, or that Cumberbatch is right. Regardless of whatever inane dialogue these two are exchanging, the 72 is key here. After the Eugenics Wars in Star Trek, a number of augments were exiled into space on sleeper ships. One of these ships, the SS Botany Bay, was sent out with Khan and 84 other people aboard. After 12 of these capsules failed, he was left with 72 augments. http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/SS_Botany_Bay Basically, it is gonna be Khan. Several other compelling points, and some other details which will be very interesting, but are more speculative: The first post links a JP video, which has a short clip, which reenacted the radiation scene from Wrath of Khan. It isn't clear whose hands these are, but I will suggest something about this later. I think it would be wildly amiss from Abram's stated goals to include a scene like this without it being Khan as the villian. Instead, he's repeatedly said he wants these ST movies to appeal to new fans and old. Several of the trailers show the Enterprise eating massive quantities of shit, with massive chunks ripped out of her engineering and saucer sections. Coupled with a short, 2 second clip which shows several crewmen getting sucked out of a breach at light speed, we know the Enterprise is gonna get wrecked. Furthermore, we have a good shot from above ofthe Enterprise, in which it has many hull breaches as well, hurtling towards a planet. Coupled with a large, federation sort of ship slamming into SanFran harbor (Home of Starfleet) (and taking out Alcatraz as well), I suspect that the Enterprise is going to get massively, completely owned. If you've watched the third and final trailer, it should be obvious who's going to do this-- a dreadnaught which looks oddly Federation in design (it has the classic saucer/engineering/nacelle set up that we see in almost every Federation vessel), firing on the Enterprise. My prediction is as follows: Khan has the dreadnaught, makes the Enterprise grab its ankles, and sends it hurtling towards Earth. Now, since a warp core breach on the surface of the planet, near SanFran would obliterate the city (not to mention the continent as a whole), I suspect that there will be a reenactment of the radiation scene from the end of the Wrath of Khan, in an attempt to make sure the antimatter doesn't detonate as the Enterprise is crashing. Somebody's gonna die, for sure, but I wouldn't be surprised if Abrams reverses Spock dying, and instead lets Kirk, given that a theme of these trailers has been Kirk's arrogance in not having any of his crew die. Further predictions: either this person, or maybe Captain Pike will actually be the one in the coffin that we see at the start of the movie. I'd be shocked if they killed off one of the bridge crew, but we do see a funeral happening as the beginning-- a further prediction is that Pike dies in the attack. I have very little evidence beyond my Star Trek movie intuition, but Pike has been a surrogate father figure in both ST11 and from the trailers you've seen. Thoughts? | ||
DeepElemBlues
United States5075 Posts
If they're going to crib lines and scenes from Space Seed and Wrath of Khan, they should have just had the movie be a remake of Space Seed for the first half and Wrath of Khan for the second half. Instead of this terrible "Admiral Marcus wants preemptive war on the Klingons so he wakes up Khan who is supposed to be some kind of major badass but never does anything except kill some Klingons, hijack a basically uncrewed ship, and then crashes it because he doesn't suspect the most obvious trick ever." I mean come on. New Kirk beats New Khan with a fucking Trojan horse trick. Really, JJ Abrams? Old Khan would have never just stood around and let those torpedoes be beamed over without checking them at all. He'd have been down in the cargo bay opening them up the instant they beamed over. Because old Khan cared about his crew and showed it. New Khan says he cares but does nothing to show that's true. Old Spock talking up Old Khan was the only time I felt a true threat during the movie and that was just nostalgia for Old Khan. CGI Ricardo Montalban should have showed up (come on it's Star Trek tech the tech and bam he's there) and killed Lame New Cumbertach Khan, then we would have had a movie on our hands. | ||
Coppermantis
United States845 Posts
On May 21 2013 13:16 EnterpriseE1701E wrote: Saw it last night. I just want to say I told you so. Are you a wizard. | ||
tuho12345
4482 Posts
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Fwizzz
Philippines4420 Posts
I think the mainstream population doesn't care if there are plot holes. I wonder what would happen if Kirk didn't tell Scotty to shoot Khan. An anti-hero Khan allied with Kirk was a great missed opportunity. Also Cumberbatch is bad ass. That voice. Also + Show Spoiler + KHAAAAAAAN! | ||
oBlade
Korea (South)4616 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + I have a problem with this movie's use of Khan. I don't have a categorical problem with using Khan. But in this movie, it seems blasphemous. Khan is the quintessential Star Trek villain. He's the only one who got a main character killed. Ricardo Montalban's Khan is like a historical standard. So to take the same character and put him in this random situation sullies the original Khan a bit. I mean, the real villain is section 31 I think? even though section 31 would never build starships because that's not how they operate, and then at the end Khan has like 5 minutes where he tries to take control but dies. So we're split between Khan's little amount of time as the actual villain, and the fact that the other guy, Marcus, got defeated basically by Scotty ex machina? There's basically no tension in the film. Even the cinematography. All the musical cues and reveals happen immediately. Cumberbatch's Khan is good but it's not written as a lead villain. Remember, villains only get to play their parts once, basically. It's one villain to a movie. The movie or TV casts get to appear in every production, but the villain only gets one shot to do their thing. Star Trek II is one of the finest things to come out of the franchise. Into Darkness isn't, which isn't a big deal. A lot of the franchise is average material, but you don't need to recycle the most classic villain to make average material. I would prefer Into Darkness had broken into new ground. The death of Kirk, for instance. That is a fucking dramatic thing to put on screen. Just like the death of Spock was. But it's not used dramatically in this movie. It just... recycles the Wrath of Khan death scene (using exactly the same lines - and making Spock yell KHAN is just so cheesy) and then Kirk is resurrected not 10 minutes later? In Star Trek 3 it took an entire movie and the destruction of the Enterprise to bring Spock back. The messages of Star Trek II and III are about sacrifice. That's why things like Spock's death happened. Killing Kirk is a really novel idea but not if you just bring him back like nothing happened. I think Into Darkness has some interesting ideas around Kirk as far as how he can be captain and his conflict with rules/authority. But to tell that story it didn't need to cheaply rehash the death scene from The Wrath of Khan. Kirk's actual death in Generations (considered an average film I think) is a huge moment. Or at least it's supposed to be. But a 10 minute resurrection isn't very profound. Also I can't stand the damn movie theater humor that keeps slipping into these films. The shit jokes that only get a laugh when a group of people go to a movie screening at night. Not even jokes. Just cues for shitty laughter. Like Spock's "I am not sure that qualifies." Movie cliches in general. I want them to stop sneaking into Star Trek. A couple things I thought were fresh despite the general trend of the film were: 1) Khan's success in the debris field and rescue of Kirk. It expands upon the Khan traits we already know. We know he'll use you on his way to seizing power, but in this case even saves Kirk. 2) The classified nature of the torpedoes. The section 31 in the canon I know wouldn't be involved with weapons like that - because section 31 never shows themselves - but I like the idea of military/starfleet tension and state secrets in the future. Reminds me of MECOs on Enterprise, Voyager's omega particle, and probably other stuff. 3) When Khan killed Marcus I actually thought he was killing Scotty for shooting him in the back. I was seriously impressed. The death of Marcus, though, I didn't care about. Not because Marcus was an asshole but because I don't even know who he was. He had no introduction or motives. Plot-disposable. 4) Bones' attitude as Kirk's doctor. Reminds me again of previous doctor/captain relationships but without being a caricature of the old Bones/Kirk. For that matter, I like Kirk's conflicts. 5) Spock fighting Khan. Vulcan strength makes it a lot closer of a match. In fact, I like when Spock is the captain. He also seems more relatable due to the connection with Spock Prime. I would rather Zachary Quinto were the lead, and that Kirk hadn't been resurrected. Either make Kirk's death mean something or don't kill him because it doesn't mean anything if you bring him back in 10 minutes. | ||
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