How do we get ahead of crazy if we don’t know how crazy thinks?
In the late 1970s two FBI agents expand criminal science by delving into the psychology of murder and getting uneasily close to all-too-real monsters.
New Netflix series was released today. David Fincher ("House of Cards") and Charlize Theron ("Monster") executive produced this series inspired by real cases.
Early reviews have been good, I plan on watching tonight.
I watched the first episode and it was awful. The premise has poor execution, the plot has no focus, characters feel like they are reading off a script half of the time and the main character is the most bland main lead that I have ever seen on television. Terrible, just terrible.
Felt like it was pretty good tbh, I started watching it after a debacle in the Netherlands about a "crazy" person killing people. Its not an unused formula but its pretty decent, seems down to earth and up to a certain point quite "realistic" I feel.
I found the first episode too slow, but it started getting more interesting after that. I am now 6 episodes in and it's pretty good actually. Not the fastest paced show, but it's solid.
Yeah I have liked it, but it is slow paced and more focused on how they are coming up with theories on criminal psychology and interviewing serial killers to try and understand what they are thinking, than about the serial killers in action so far.
For those curious where the title of the series came from, the series is based on the book Mindhunter, which chronicles the life of real life FBI agent John E. Douglas, who the character Holden Ford is based on (Jack Crawford in The Silence of the Lambs is also based on Douglas).
Also if you haven't figured out who the guy is in the prologue's for most of the series, and want to be spoiled, it's the + Show Spoiler +
BTK Killer. Here is a list of all the real serial killers that are on or mentioned on the show.
I watched some later episodes but mostly skipped around. The interviews with the serial killers are well done. I especially liked that guy with the women's shoes fetish. That said, it's the only redeemable quality of the show. The acting outside of their encounters with the killers and all the internal politics of the FBI are boring and terribly acted. At certain points it really does seem like they did one take and didn't bother to do the scene again. The relationship plot with the hippie girl is also pretty terrible and has no reason to exist beyond "we need some sorta relationship in the show."
Netflix has got to get its shit together, so far it's only good exclusive is Stranger Things - and the second season is still up in the air in terms of how good it will be.
Love this show about trying to understand the mind of ''sequence killers''. And the pace is just right, you need time to let things hit you. It's not some mindless action tv show/movie like there are so many of these days.
It's not really a show you can skip around on and expect to follow. I understand that it might be too psychological and dialogue heavy for some people's tastes, but I never had any issues with the acting.
It plays against the stereo typical bad-ass cop hero, with a lead character who is pretty much a naïve dork at the start. As much as anything the "in between" scenes show the psychological toll that their jobs are having on their personal lives and personalities. It's a slow burn and some of the scenes that one might ask what the point is, probably won't pay off until future seasons.
I really enjoyed the series. I find it very different then other shows around. The show isn't a traditional crime show, but as much of a series about developing a new science with its own terminology. Its about wanting to understand the reason behind gruesome acts of violence instead of just calling them Evil. I can agree that the main character is stiff and awkward but think that is the way he was, more than bad acting. Nice to see that not all main characters need to be exciting personality.
7 Episodes in i'm enjoying this a lot. It tells a story that is very different in terms of pacing and story, compared to what we're used to today.
This is one of the great things about the renaissance of television. They're able to pull of plots here, that would be impossible to tell in cinema. What comes close in terms of atmosphere is Zodiac (2007), which is also by Fincher and great. Certainly not suitable for everyone's taste.
That end with Holden going into a panic attack after Kempen hugs him was the perfect ending to this season. He finally seems to have realized this is not a game and how fragile life is. His partner actually dealt with his emotions, Holden didn't. And the guy at the end was the BTK killer apparently.
On October 17 2017 23:41 Technique wrote: Love this show about trying to understand the mind of ''sequence killers''. And the pace is just right, you need time to let things hit you. It's not some mindless action tv show/movie like there are so many of these days.
This is classic David Fincher.
Ya that's what I thought too. Very similar feel and pace to that of Zodiac (about a serial killer and one of his best films). If you are only in it for action sequences or the episodic cases or w/e this might not be your show.
As people have already mentioned, this is not a typical cop show. Some sociological knowledge might be necessary in order to fully understand and appreciate some of the stories. The plot is: FBI agent Holden Ford doing research into the psychology of the serial killers. I think the cast, script and acting are some of its best features.
Don't know if anyone had any curiosity in googling some of the killers in the show. + Show Spoiler +
snippets from an interview with edmund kemper can be heard in the show
I think the final scene is very powerful, its a slow watch and not much "action" (in terms of things happening, not neccesarily violence). Its slow but very well crafted.
These people are serial killers, they killed numerous people yet Holden is tortured by the reasons that they did it, did they choose for this life? Moreover, is Holden feeling mercy or empathy for Kemper? How can you feel empathy for a serial killer? pretty scary stuff tbh, very powerful scene.
It's definitely not mercy but it's interesting that you said "empathy". It's pretty obvious that Holden's character changes gradually from that shy, hesitant, innocent boy who can barely utter those deviant words in ep 1 to a confident, driven, kind of arrogant man "Gotta make it with that young pussy before it turns into mom" is something Kemper says in ep 2 and Holden uses it in ep 10 to trap Devier Agent Ford also keeps fixating on what the actual spark for each of the killers might be and whether or not, without that small element, would those people continue on the same path. The more he learns about them and starts thinking like them, the more he becomes like them. I think it's this unconscious realisation that triggers the panic attack I have to say, there is something captivating in hearing Edmund Kemper talk
I liked season 1 except for the last couple of episodes. The bureaucratic bullshit surrounding that Speck interview is boring and not why I and, I assume, most people watch the show. + Show Spoiler +
I also don't understand why the spy, Smith, wasn't immediately fired from the unit after his (first) betrayal.
I enjoyed watching the characters interact and change throughout the season. I just found that they are all very unlikeable a bit trying and in some ways made it difficult to really get invested in any of them (e.g. I dont think I would have minded of any of them died).
i'm halfway in but it was clear from ep2 that Holden Ford is a psychopath, presented(to the viewer) under a very incipient and clumsy form. it's like he's learning the ropes of it all but it didn't sunk in yet as to why.
Holden is based on real life FBI agent John E Douglas and his book Mindhunter about his career.
Douglas is also the inspiration for Jack Crawford in Silence of the Lambs/Hannibal, though he isn't a fan of that character.
“They don’t put across accurate portrayals, and [that] aggravates me,” he told The Post. “I can’t look at those movies. You see FBI agents pulling out guns and knocking down doors and taking over investigations . . . [In reality,] if you’re a cop and I work with you on a case, I help to develop a more proactive technique.”
He is consulting on the Netflix series. “They’re going by the book and I am very pleased,” said Douglas. Watching the series “is like reliving my life all over again.”
Also this part of a real life interview with Ed Kemper shows how spot on the actor's portrayal is:
you give television to much credit. John E Douglas was ... weird to say the least:
Despite these and other triumphs, the ghoulish nature of the job eventually wore Douglas down. Nightmares and sleepless nights were increasingly frequent and he found it hard to communicate with his family (“You come home and your child scrapes her knee, but you just left work today in a case where a young child was murdered and mutilated.") Under immense pressure at work, he contracted viral encephalitis – a fever which doctors said "fried his brain". His family were warned he would likely be left in a vegetative stage. He recovered, however, and was soon back hunting killers, including Unabomber Ted Kaczynski. But the psychological trauma never quite lifted and he turned in his badge for good in 1995 aged just 49.
or some gossip
Reddit user thebeginningistheend posits that Ford might be a functional psychopath. The user points out that Ford checks off a lot of boxes on the Hare psychopathy checklist. He's cunning, he's manipulative, and he's callous. And, he has a "grandiose estimation of self," not unlike that of his subjects. Serial killers tend to self-aggrandize, which you'll know if you watch the series (or are really into serial killers).
Holden isnt a psycopath as some suggest, he might be a bit narcissistic but the last episode when he is confronted by Kemper clearly shows him having a panic attack. Something psycopaths cannot have
On October 27 2017 20:09 Pulimuli1 wrote: Holden isnt a psycopath as some suggest, he might be a bit narcissistic but the last episode when he is confronted by Kemper clearly shows him having a panic attack. Something psycopaths cannot have
arguable, but might come down to nuances in definitions(deviant psychopath vs "pro-social" psychopath for ex.+ Show Spoiler +
James H. Fallon here: "Fallon, who himself states that he has the neurological and genetic correlates of psychopathy (Antisocial Personality Disorder),[1] has categorized himself as a "pro-social psychopath".
, but there are more divisions and subdivisions here).
Low anxiety has traditionally been considered a feature of psychopathy, but there has been mixed research support for this conceptualization. We investigated the PPI-R-SF Stress Immunity subscale (a measure of low anxiety) in relation to 2 widely used self-report psychopathy scales in a sample of 346 undergraduate students. Results indicated that PPI-R-SF Stress Immunity was nearly unrelated to other indicators of psychopathy, showing a near-zero loading on the common psychopathy factor defined jointly by the scales of the PPI-R-SF and SRP-III. Stress Immunity also showed a pattern of personality and temperament correlates much different from those of other psychopathy subscales. Finally, Stress Immunity had a slight negative correlation with self-reports of diverse antisocial acts. These results suggest that despite its historical importance in the conceptualization of psychopathy, low anxiety is likely not a core feature of psychopathy.
overall, psychopathy is being redefined(or at least some are trying to):
Abstract
The psychopathy field has long been beset by confusion and contention regarding the boundaries and features of this chimerical condition. We propose that this disagreement stems largely from the historical separation between psychopathy and basic personality psychology. Using findings from a meta-analysis of the correlations between the Psychopathy Checklist-Revised (PCL-R) and normal-range personality traits as a launching point, we (a) deconstruct widely used measures of psychopathy into their constituent subdimensions and (b) examine the associations of these subdimensions with higher-order and lower-order personality dimensions drawn from the Big Five and Big Three frameworks. Our review of the adult psychopathy literature reveals broad agreement that psychopathy measures are imbued with low Agreeableness and low Conscientiousness. Nevertheless, substantial disagreement revolves around the place of largely adaptive features, especially high agentic Extraversion, low Neuroticism, and high Openness, within the psychopathy construct. We propose that ongoing debates regarding the nature and boundaries of psychopathy reflect a focus on two differing operationalizations of this condition, each of which reflects a different “species” of individual.
some estimate that between 30% to 40% of people are born with that "psychopathic condition" and then nurture splits them into further categories.
Edit: also, the attack might not have been fear/anxiety related at all; Holden might've realized he was like Kemper.+ Show Spoiler +
was pleasure, arousal; he was having a psychological orgasm
Solid show. I enjoyed its slow pace. Going in I was expecting a monster-of-the-week thriller like the first season of Hannibal (but obviously without Hannibal). But this was far more interesting. Almost a documentary style show.
I watched the show a few weeks back, so i dont have all the details in mind. But i remember that i was really fascinated by it. In my eyes, though without much further thought, it is one of the best shows made so far. The atmosphere, the pacing and the character development, all excellent imo. Especially the development of Ford seems so consistent and believable. I was and am pretty much impressed.
But im certain many folks dont enjoy this show as much as i do. If you dont like slow pace, lots of dialouge and lack of action I wouldnt recommend watching it.
Somewhat off Topic: On one hand, I get the impression since Breaking Bad (maybe before that idk.. dont know all shows .) ) the quality of the "best" shows seems to steadily increase. Today there are shows (mindhunter, stranger things, mr robot) that seem to reach at least partially a different level of quality in comparison to "older" shows. On the other hand, theres a shitton of awful movies. Well, to put it differently, theres a severe lack of excellent movies. Maybe it has always been that way, the good shows just standing out and pointing the finger at the crappy rest. Maybe i simply missed the good movies.. idk just a thought.