On April 15 2014 04:09 Raneth wrote: Neither of them have rights, surely the throne is now the queen regents, (margeries) as she married joffery and became queen, the throne will then pass to her first born. Dont forget the wedding actually took place, that has changed who is in line for what, those lannister kids shouldnt really even be in the pecking.
This is not how succession works. Siblings of the king go first.
Seriously. Y'all need to play some Crusader Kings 2.
i think iron throne goes by Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture by ck2 standards.
male priority king's -> son -> daughter -> brother -> sister -> father -> mother then to king's brother's son then repeat.
i love ck2
And, importantly, (not really here, but for succession nerds), it iterates, ignoring death for lines of succession.
So if Joff had a son, he would be king. But also if Joff had a grandson, and his son were dead, the grandson would be king irrespective of any brothers, sisters, mothers, etc. kicking around.
Also, I was posting in this thread last night, then spent the rest of it playing CK2... such a baller game.
There is also a GoT mod for Crusader Kings. Dunno how good it is though.
its pretty good, the map is westoros + essos, its quiet epic. there's a mod that extracted the dragon + valyrian part to be used with original ck2 (europe), i prefer that one.
On April 15 2014 01:38 Yoav wrote: Okay, so a lot of speculation that the Tyrells did it. But if Westeros is following usual western Europe succession rules: 1) Younger brother (Tommen?) is now king, though under the age of maturity and therefore using a regent. 2) Queen SarahConnor/Gorgia probably goes back to being regent, but it does depend on regency laws, which vary. Tywin probably gets to pick if there is any picking. 3) Tywin remains Hand (based on Ned Stark remaining hand even after a succession, until removal from the role). 4) Margery becomes a whole lot of nothing. Maybe keeps a Princess title, or some other ceremonial title, depending on how they hand those out, but no technical power whatsoever. I really don't see what she would gain from the marriage. Marriage doesn't make queens co-rulers under Westerosi law... they're just consorts. And even then, we were told earlier on in this show that consumation is necessary to count as a proper marriage. Only case I can imagine is if they want a marriage with Tommen (same deal, less insanity), and wanted to kill Joff before consumation so Westerosi incest laws don't prohibit the marriage (and allow them to avoid a Catherine of Aragon style mess). 5) Balon Greyjoy would do well to turn down wedding invitations for the forseeable future.
So why would Lady Olenna want to kill the king, if her granddaughter Margaery doesn't gain anything from it? Is she plotting against her own granddaughter?
They made it abundantly clear that the crown/Lannisters can't afford everything that's going on and the oncoming winter (at least, that's what I'd guess the significance was of all the time spent discussing splitting the bill of the wedding and how much is owed the Iron Bank of Braavos). The Lannisters still need both the money and army of the Tyrells.
Ok, King Joffrey is dead. Tommen is the new King, but he is underaged. That means, for a couple more years, Cersei will be the Queen Regent.
How do the Tyrell fit into this picture?
You are saying that the Lannisters need the Tyrell because of money, which makes sense. However, are the Lannisters going to give up the throne just because of those money issues?
What's stopping the Tyrells from withdrawing their support if Cersei was straight up made queen regent? Why would Cersei even be the most logical candidate for the job if Margaery was just made queen?
It's pretty customary in these situations for a parent of the underaged monarch to act as regent until they come of age. With the way succession works, because Margaery didn't have time to have any children with Joffrey, she is nothing now. Tommen is King, and Cersei will most likely be his regent like she was for Joffrey, but people may resist her a little more on that front this time around.
Margaery acting as Queen Regent for Tommen would seem a little strange to you, wouldn't it? When he came of age, what would happen? An unmarried King/Queen on the Iron Throne? Or Margaery being forced to step down?
There are countless historical examples of the betrothed Queen being married to the new King upon the death of the brother if the marriage had not been consummated. Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon is just one such example of this.
If brethren dwell together, and one of them die, and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger: her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife, and perform the duty of an husband's brother unto her.
Deuteronomy 25:5 KJB
By medieval feudal tradition, albeit sourced in the Bible, Margaery would become the wife of the new king.
I think that it seems likely that it's the Tyrells who poisoned Joffrey (otherwise there is much misdirection going around in the show). If so, I can't imagine that they would do it out of the goodness of their heart. Obviously, they expect to have some kind of grasp on King's landing. I might be mistaken, but Margaery has more power than Cercei now, as she'd be Queen regent when waiting for the closest thing the Baratheons have to a heir, so that'd be Tommen.
I imagine the Lannisters would probably prefer having Cercei running things, and they do have a firm grasp on King's Landing. I'm really wondering how it'll play out though, because the Tyrells clearly have something in mind and Olenna seems to competent to have done all this for nothing, so I don't expect Margaery to be discarded by the Lannisters too easily.
I don't imagine that the plans of the Tyrells is to bring back Stannis, which would be counter productive to their family's interests (unless I missed something). Plus I guess with Tommen being right there and surrounded by Lannisters, that'd be impossible to pull off... So it leaves Margaery with enough power to annoy the Lannisters, as she rules with Tommen being too young to really do anything.
I expect an interesting power struggle between the Lannisters and the Tyrells. Wonder if it'll turn violent.
On April 16 2014 07:28 Djzapz wrote: I think that it seems likely that it's the Tyrells who poisoned Joffrey (otherwise there is much misdirection going around in the show). If so, I can't imagine that they would do it out of the goodness of their heart. Obviously, they expect to have some kind of grasp on King's landing. I might be mistaken, but Margaery has more power than Cercei now, as she'd be Queen regent when waiting for the closest thing the Baratheons have to a heir, so that'd be Tommen.
If we compare it to medieval europe, a queen that got widowed with no heir is a nobody (power wise). Especially one that has been married for only a few hours. She is only a Tyrell once again and has no grasp over power. Usually regency are often assured by the mothers and/or other family members (uncles), a few times it has been another powerful family with ties to the previous monarch.
The most logical regency in that case would be Tywin. He's the patriarch of the house, grandfather of King Tommen, a man respected and feared. There is no other logical person.
Edit: However as someone pointed out, it is a distinct possibility that Margaery will be betrothed to Tommen but she wouldn't be regent anyway.
On April 16 2014 07:28 Djzapz wrote: I think that it seems likely that it's the Tyrells who poisoned Joffrey (otherwise there is much misdirection going around in the show). If so, I can't imagine that they would do it out of the goodness of their heart. Obviously, they expect to have some kind of grasp on King's landing. I might be mistaken, but Margaery has more power than Cercei now, as she'd be Queen regent when waiting for the closest thing the Baratheons have to a heir, so that'd be Tommen.
If we compare it to medieval europe, a queen that got widowed with no heir is a nobody (power wise). Especially one that has been married for only a few hours. She is only a Tyrell once again and has no grasp over power. Usually regency are often assured by the mothers and/or other family members (uncles), a few times it has been another powerful family with ties to the previous monarch.
The most logical regency in that case would be Tywin. He's the patriarch of the house, grandfather of King Tommen, a man respected and feared. There is no other logical person.
Edit: However as someone pointed out, it is a distinct possibility that Margaery will be betrothed to Tommen but she wouldn't be regent anyway.
Well I don't know much about medieval Europe and I don't really know how it works in GoT, but I know that there are multiple ways in which successions happen. I think that Anglo-Saxon England, the Frankish Empire and the empire of the Kievian Rus all had very different traditions.
Tywin is clearly not interested in being the main figurehead of the kingdom, so it seems to me like Cercei would want to take it, but I can't imagine that the Tyrells would've poisoned the king only to immediately lose their grasp of the power.
Edit: However as someone pointed out, it is a distinct possibility that Margaery will be betrothed to Tommen but she wouldn't be regent anyway.
Well I guess I'm clearly out of my depth if that's how it works . Maybe the Tyrells are playing the long game then. I just kind of assumed that Margeary was going to have some power and that was the whole point for the Tyrells.
im not too sure about the "foreshadowing" of the dead birds, when the sword came down and the birds flew out i was like "surely he hit one of them" and then the scene of the dead birds came on, and it was like "oh he did lol" i thought it was just to show that. Also i thought the top bit of the cake was like just that bird release thing, like there would be something covering the cake than have the fake bird trap cake bit on top, (birds in a enclosed enviroment probably shitting all over the place)
I wonder if its tywin who kill joffery, at first i thought it was lady olenna with that whole neckalce theory people had going, but now reading some other peoples theories i like the one about like tywin doing it so hes can like do the whole king of the hand is ruling in place. plus he didnt seem surprised at all when joffery died or even look like he gave a shit.
Also whats was with the bran vision, they showed this man in a big cloak (kinda like crow??? clothing) and it looked like he commanded a ton of ravens the same ones that attack/warned? sam about that white walker. (also whats with those creep tree faces i remember one of them being in winterfell and hodor running past it with his penis failing. Is the guy from the vision meant to be under the tree (starting to remind me of the eragon series with that sword/ore under the tree LOL)
more arya please (i heard it was her birthday a few days ago too) i cant wait till she gets to that assassin city w/e its called the one who the facechanger told her about
On April 16 2014 10:25 Djzapz wrote:18% say he choked himself (so damn hard his eyes started to bleed and he turned purple in seconds)
I didn't realize how that came off. I meant to suggest that he legitimately choked on the cake or wine without poison. Now people are voting that he purposefully choked to death, pfft. There's no way to remove that option without remaking the poll I presume? Oh well.
So, while it's easy to get distracted by the murder mystery, we also got some interesting information this episode on the Fire God. A few distinct theological statements we've heard so far about this religion:
1) Our current plane is "hell" 2) Escape from this plane is desirable 3) Fire is the purest death 4) There is an effort to purify oneself of all evil, so that one is readied to pass on, but this can even be in the very act of death. 5) The Fire God is opposed by another god, described as a Darkness God 6) The Night is Dark and full of terrors
We may go on to infer that the Darkness God has some relation to this world, probably as its creator. All the new information goes to push our understanding of this religion away from seeing this as Crystal Dragon Islam, and toward seeing it as a Crystal Dragon Manichaeism.
Manichaeism is a first millenium religion that blended Christianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Platonism and Gnostic elements to propose a strict dualism manifested both in the divine (good god, bad god) and the world (good spiritual world, bad material world). For an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
On April 16 2014 10:47 Yoav wrote: So, while it's easy to get distracted by the murder mystery, we also got some interesting information this episode on the Fire God. A few distinct theological statements we've heard so far about this religion:
1) Our current plane is "hell" 2) Escape from this plane is desirable 3) Fire is the purest death 4) There is an effort to purify oneself of all evil, so that one is readied to pass on, but this can even be in the very act of death. 5) The Fire God is opposed by another god, described as a Darkness God 6) The Night is Dark and full of terrors
We may go on to infer that the Darkness God has some relation to this world, probably as its creator. All the new information goes to push our understanding of this religion away from seeing this as Crystal Dragon Islam, and toward seeing it as a Crystal Dragon Manichaeism.
Manichaeism is a first millenium religion that blended Christianity, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Platonism and Gnostic elements to propose a strict dualism manifested both in the divine (good god, bad god) and the world (good spiritual world, bad material world). For an overview: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism
Here's the S3 Lore video for the Lord of Light for some more info. As always, the comments MAY be dark and full of spoilers, if you visit the youtube page. I don't see one for this (currently), but care.
Also, I would argue that it's much more Zoroastrian, which is where the Abrahamic religions and Manchiaeism derives its moral dualism between good and evil; a god of good and creation in an eternal struggle against an anti-thesis god of evil, with humanity playing an active role in the struggle.
Heck, Zoroastrians have fire temples as their place of worship.
It's interesting to note that the cup-beaerer is quite an honorable position and only the most trustworthy men were given that honor. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cup-bearer
Also, they didn't seem to have any food tasters checking the cake before the king ate it. I understand that food testers were quite indispensable for kings in those days.
Given the circumstances and given the fact that King Joffrey was poisoned to death, Oberyn Martell should become a high probability suspect. Oberyn is also called the Red Viper. How does a Viper, kill its prey? With poison right?
History: In s04e01, he already made it clear that he wants Tywin Lannister and Gregor Clegane to answer for the deaths of Elia of Dorne (her sister) and her children in the Sack of King's Landing. If he indeed assassinated Joffrey, then we could say that it is getting back at house lannister.
On April 16 2014 00:55 Ghost-z wrote: I still think the poison was in the pie. The dead birds seem to foreshadow this and the only person seen eating the pie is Joeffrey. Tywin is shown playing with some pie on his fork but he never actually eats it on screen.
i also thinks its in the pie
my theory is that it must have been poisoned by the queen / that old lady. notice how the queen feeds him the pie but doesn't eat any herself
in most situations, for anyone else to have poisoned either the wine or the pie, would mean to risk randomly poisoning the queen or perhaps someone else. that would be pretty pointless if they have an intended target (joffrey)
Tywin could be the murderer. He is clearly ruthless enough to make such sacrifices. He knows that Joffrey is an unpredictable cunt who might put the family's position at risk at any time, and he doesn't know how much longer he can control him. At the same time, he sees that Margaery gains more and more influence over Joffrey. With Joffrey dead, Tommen becomes the next king, Cersei stays Queen Regent and Tywin can pull the strings as the Hand Of The King, while Margaery loses all her power. The elegant part is that the Tyrells' elimination from power happens without directly affronting them, so they can't really do much about it. Even if the Lannisters are forced to betrothe Margaery to Tommen, that gives the Lannisters some 10 years of uncontested power until Tommen comes of age and plenty of time to come up with a new plan.
I would think Tywin actually makes the most sense, except how can he prevent margaery from eating the pie or drinking the wine. That's a lot of risk for something very unpredictable, and if it failed would make it much harder to kill him in the future.
Besides, wouldn't it be very easy for Tywin to kill him some other way anyways?