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This is a thread that is dedicated to discussing One Piece. Do not read this thread if you are not currently caught up as there are spoilers in here.
If an episode or a chapter has already been officially released, then it is not necessary to post using spoilers.
If you have knowledge on a chapter that has not been officially released yet, do NOT post it in this thread. Ignoring this public note will result in a mod action. |
On November 06 2014 01:20 shell wrote: This is not a novel or a romance and no one said it would or should win the nobel prize..
None of the guys you mentioned could do OP.. because they probably can't draw.. But Oda can write.. even if he couldn't write a master piece deserving of a nobel prize.
On the Mozart part I can understand the genius side of him, writing and performing since very young and changing music forever but that doesn't mean that impact reaches everybody!
The thing is i really like manga and i've read dozens of it and this one even tho it's chilish and silly beats the others because it's fun and has a deeper story
Oh and btw the only portuguese writer to win a nober prize was Saramago and he isn't considered in the top5 of portuguese writers.. fame and fortune doesn't make you the best much like lack of recognition doesn't make you bad
I didn't comment on whether One Piece should win a Nobel Prize or not. I responded to your post regarding the longtivity of Odas writing. You asked for anyone else that could write for 17 years and maintain a certain degree of consistency in their writing AND maintain some succes. To that i responded that between 1901 and atleast 1947, Thomas Mann wrote several literary classics, that did earn him the Nobel Prize. The fact that he won the Nobel Prize was merely to show that he was somewhat succesful, considering that fact that the Nobel Prize is one of the greatest acknowledgements that an author can get. And while i agree with you that fame and fortune does not equal quality, i also think that it makes next to no sense to discuss mainstream succes if you are not allowed to look at for instance awards, sale numbers or general reception of an author.
The reason that i made a reference to Beatles and Mozart was to examplify the difference Oda and for instance Thomas Mann. One Piece is great on it's own merits, like Beatles, but compared to for instance Thomas Mann, One Piece is no masterpiece.
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On November 06 2014 04:02 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 01:20 shell wrote: This is not a novel or a romance and no one said it would or should win the nobel prize..
None of the guys you mentioned could do OP.. because they probably can't draw.. But Oda can write.. even if he couldn't write a master piece deserving of a nobel prize.
On the Mozart part I can understand the genius side of him, writing and performing since very young and changing music forever but that doesn't mean that impact reaches everybody!
The thing is i really like manga and i've read dozens of it and this one even tho it's chilish and silly beats the others because it's fun and has a deeper story
Oh and btw the only portuguese writer to win a nober prize was Saramago and he isn't considered in the top5 of portuguese writers.. fame and fortune doesn't make you the best much like lack of recognition doesn't make you bad I didn't comment on whether One Piece should win a Nobel Prize or not. I responded to your post regarding the longtivity of Odas writing. You asked for anyone else that could write for 17 years and maintain a certain degree of consistency in their writing AND maintain some succes. To that i responded that between 1901 and atleast 1947, Thomas Mann wrote several literary classics, that did earn him the Nobel Prize. The fact that he won the Nobel Prize was merely to show that he was somewhat succesful, considering that fact that the Nobel Prize is one of the greatest acknowledgements that an author can get. And while i agree with you that fame and fortune does not equal quality, i also think that it makes next to no sense to discuss mainstream succes if you are not allowed to look at for instance awards, sale numbers or general reception of an author. The reason that i made a reference to Beatles and Mozart was to examplify the difference Oda and for instance Thomas Mann. One Piece is great on it's own merits, like Beatles, but compared to for instance Thomas Mann, One Piece is no masterpiece. well i think thats a bit of a narrow view on the term masterpiece
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On November 06 2014 00:08 bolahola wrote: eh I can tell that I really hurt some peoples feelings in this thread with my comments. My post was trollish in nature,I kinda love to drop in here every once in a while and take a stab at people that adore one piece and I didnt mean it as seriously as I wrote it,its absolutely fine to like one piece.
Just dont be like that virgin flamewheel he prolly still lives in his mothers basement
User was banned for this post.
You sure got us!
Damn that guys intellect is so superior to us basement dwelling dick suckers. We should all be ashamed of ourselves.
+ Show Spoiler +I wonder if he even gets the severe sarcasm i imply. What a complete tool.
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Why is Forikorder my favorite poster in this thread now..?
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On November 06 2014 04:30 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 04:02 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 01:20 shell wrote: This is not a novel or a romance and no one said it would or should win the nobel prize..
None of the guys you mentioned could do OP.. because they probably can't draw.. But Oda can write.. even if he couldn't write a master piece deserving of a nobel prize.
On the Mozart part I can understand the genius side of him, writing and performing since very young and changing music forever but that doesn't mean that impact reaches everybody!
The thing is i really like manga and i've read dozens of it and this one even tho it's chilish and silly beats the others because it's fun and has a deeper story
Oh and btw the only portuguese writer to win a nober prize was Saramago and he isn't considered in the top5 of portuguese writers.. fame and fortune doesn't make you the best much like lack of recognition doesn't make you bad I didn't comment on whether One Piece should win a Nobel Prize or not. I responded to your post regarding the longtivity of Odas writing. You asked for anyone else that could write for 17 years and maintain a certain degree of consistency in their writing AND maintain some succes. To that i responded that between 1901 and atleast 1947, Thomas Mann wrote several literary classics, that did earn him the Nobel Prize. The fact that he won the Nobel Prize was merely to show that he was somewhat succesful, considering that fact that the Nobel Prize is one of the greatest acknowledgements that an author can get. And while i agree with you that fame and fortune does not equal quality, i also think that it makes next to no sense to discuss mainstream succes if you are not allowed to look at for instance awards, sale numbers or general reception of an author. The reason that i made a reference to Beatles and Mozart was to examplify the difference Oda and for instance Thomas Mann. One Piece is great on it's own merits, like Beatles, but compared to for instance Thomas Mann, One Piece is no masterpiece. well i think thats a bit of a narrow view on the term masterpiece
I'd say that the term masterpiece is pretty narrow.
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On November 06 2014 05:14 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 04:30 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2014 04:02 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 01:20 shell wrote: This is not a novel or a romance and no one said it would or should win the nobel prize..
None of the guys you mentioned could do OP.. because they probably can't draw.. But Oda can write.. even if he couldn't write a master piece deserving of a nobel prize.
On the Mozart part I can understand the genius side of him, writing and performing since very young and changing music forever but that doesn't mean that impact reaches everybody!
The thing is i really like manga and i've read dozens of it and this one even tho it's chilish and silly beats the others because it's fun and has a deeper story
Oh and btw the only portuguese writer to win a nober prize was Saramago and he isn't considered in the top5 of portuguese writers.. fame and fortune doesn't make you the best much like lack of recognition doesn't make you bad I didn't comment on whether One Piece should win a Nobel Prize or not. I responded to your post regarding the longtivity of Odas writing. You asked for anyone else that could write for 17 years and maintain a certain degree of consistency in their writing AND maintain some succes. To that i responded that between 1901 and atleast 1947, Thomas Mann wrote several literary classics, that did earn him the Nobel Prize. The fact that he won the Nobel Prize was merely to show that he was somewhat succesful, considering that fact that the Nobel Prize is one of the greatest acknowledgements that an author can get. And while i agree with you that fame and fortune does not equal quality, i also think that it makes next to no sense to discuss mainstream succes if you are not allowed to look at for instance awards, sale numbers or general reception of an author. The reason that i made a reference to Beatles and Mozart was to examplify the difference Oda and for instance Thomas Mann. One Piece is great on it's own merits, like Beatles, but compared to for instance Thomas Mann, One Piece is no masterpiece. well i think thats a bit of a narrow view on the term masterpiece I'd say that the term masterpiece is pretty narrow. i dont understand how you can say that the beatles cant be a masterpiece, but beethoven can or that one piece cannot be a masterpiece by thoms mann can
unless you just think its impossible to create a masterpiece if your not doing something classic/standard
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One Piece's target market is adolescents. But so are video games. Read what you like and don't justify yourself.
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On November 06 2014 05:25 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 05:14 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 04:30 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2014 04:02 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 01:20 shell wrote: This is not a novel or a romance and no one said it would or should win the nobel prize..
None of the guys you mentioned could do OP.. because they probably can't draw.. But Oda can write.. even if he couldn't write a master piece deserving of a nobel prize.
On the Mozart part I can understand the genius side of him, writing and performing since very young and changing music forever but that doesn't mean that impact reaches everybody!
The thing is i really like manga and i've read dozens of it and this one even tho it's chilish and silly beats the others because it's fun and has a deeper story
Oh and btw the only portuguese writer to win a nober prize was Saramago and he isn't considered in the top5 of portuguese writers.. fame and fortune doesn't make you the best much like lack of recognition doesn't make you bad I didn't comment on whether One Piece should win a Nobel Prize or not. I responded to your post regarding the longtivity of Odas writing. You asked for anyone else that could write for 17 years and maintain a certain degree of consistency in their writing AND maintain some succes. To that i responded that between 1901 and atleast 1947, Thomas Mann wrote several literary classics, that did earn him the Nobel Prize. The fact that he won the Nobel Prize was merely to show that he was somewhat succesful, considering that fact that the Nobel Prize is one of the greatest acknowledgements that an author can get. And while i agree with you that fame and fortune does not equal quality, i also think that it makes next to no sense to discuss mainstream succes if you are not allowed to look at for instance awards, sale numbers or general reception of an author. The reason that i made a reference to Beatles and Mozart was to examplify the difference Oda and for instance Thomas Mann. One Piece is great on it's own merits, like Beatles, but compared to for instance Thomas Mann, One Piece is no masterpiece. well i think thats a bit of a narrow view on the term masterpiece I'd say that the term masterpiece is pretty narrow. i dont understand how you can say that the beatles cant be a masterpiece, but beethoven can or that one piece cannot be a masterpiece by thoms mann can unless you just think its impossible to create a masterpiece if your not doing something classic/standard
First of all let me make one thing clear. I am in no position whatsoever to positively decide if something is a masterpiece, given the fact that i myself am no virtuous in any particular field. However, i believe that i am qualified to negatively decide if something, within a field that i am quite familiar with, is a masterpiece or not. If you look at The Beatles for instance, it is quite evident that neither the lyrics nor musical composition of any of their songs are outstanding. As far as One Piece goes, it is generally the same problems that apply.
While the story of One Piece is indeed far superior to mangas such as Dragonball, Naruto or Bleach the overall character complexity is still fairly mediocre compared to many other books. One Piece just has a wealth of fairly well crafted personalities, rather than a small group of highly complex characters. And if you look at the actual composition of the story, it follows the same very generic manga structure. Each arc centers around a single or a few characters, leading up to final boss fight against antagonist of said characters, and after Luffy has went all out against the final boss, the proces will start over. Furthermore the development of a personality will often times heavily stagnate after their arc is over. Robin for instance has seen next to no character development since the Enies Lobby arc ended in 2007(!). A good seven year time-span where she has been a quite generic character.
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So you're saying thatyou're not qualified to say what's a masterpiece but qualified to say what's not a masterpiece?
Your first mistake is comparing One Piece, a manga, to normal literature.
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On November 06 2014 06:23 AsnSensation wrote: So you're saying thatyou're not qualified to say what's a masterpiece but qualified to say what's not a masterpiece?
Yes, that is exactly what i am saying. Does that sound wierd to you?
On November 06 2014 06:23 AsnSensation wrote: Your first mistake is comparing One Piece, a manga, to normal literature.
Why would that be a mistake? A manga is nothing more than a comic from Japan, and a comic is nothing more than a book with pictures to go with the text.
EDIT: In regards to the difference between manga and normal literature, it's true that there are differences. For instance i would not expect Oda to give a detailed description of the appearance of Doflamingo, given the fact that he has already drawn a perfectly good picture of aforementioned character. But in regards to the quality of the story and character complexity i see no reason why we should have lower expectations for a manga, or a movie for that matter.
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Austria24413 Posts
And a movie is nothing more than a bunch of moving pictures, with sound! One Piece is basically a movie.
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On November 06 2014 06:06 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 05:25 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2014 05:14 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 04:30 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2014 04:02 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 01:20 shell wrote: This is not a novel or a romance and no one said it would or should win the nobel prize..
None of the guys you mentioned could do OP.. because they probably can't draw.. But Oda can write.. even if he couldn't write a master piece deserving of a nobel prize.
On the Mozart part I can understand the genius side of him, writing and performing since very young and changing music forever but that doesn't mean that impact reaches everybody!
The thing is i really like manga and i've read dozens of it and this one even tho it's chilish and silly beats the others because it's fun and has a deeper story
Oh and btw the only portuguese writer to win a nober prize was Saramago and he isn't considered in the top5 of portuguese writers.. fame and fortune doesn't make you the best much like lack of recognition doesn't make you bad I didn't comment on whether One Piece should win a Nobel Prize or not. I responded to your post regarding the longtivity of Odas writing. You asked for anyone else that could write for 17 years and maintain a certain degree of consistency in their writing AND maintain some succes. To that i responded that between 1901 and atleast 1947, Thomas Mann wrote several literary classics, that did earn him the Nobel Prize. The fact that he won the Nobel Prize was merely to show that he was somewhat succesful, considering that fact that the Nobel Prize is one of the greatest acknowledgements that an author can get. And while i agree with you that fame and fortune does not equal quality, i also think that it makes next to no sense to discuss mainstream succes if you are not allowed to look at for instance awards, sale numbers or general reception of an author. The reason that i made a reference to Beatles and Mozart was to examplify the difference Oda and for instance Thomas Mann. One Piece is great on it's own merits, like Beatles, but compared to for instance Thomas Mann, One Piece is no masterpiece. well i think thats a bit of a narrow view on the term masterpiece I'd say that the term masterpiece is pretty narrow. i dont understand how you can say that the beatles cant be a masterpiece, but beethoven can or that one piece cannot be a masterpiece by thoms mann can unless you just think its impossible to create a masterpiece if your not doing something classic/standard First of all let me make one thing clear. I am in no position whatsoever to positively decide if something is a masterpiece, given the fact that i myself am no virtuous in any particular field. However, i believe that i am qualified to negatively decide if something, within a field that i am quite familiar with, is a masterpiece or not. If you look at The Beatles for instance, it is quite evident that neither the lyrics nor musical composition of any of their songs are outstanding. As far as One Piece goes, it is generally the same problems that apply. While the story of One Piece is indeed far superior to mangas such as Dragonball, Naruto or Bleach the overall character complexity is still fairly mediocre compared to many other books. One Piece just has a wealth of fairly well crafted personalities, rather than a small group of highly complex characters. And if you look at the actual composition of the story, it follows the same very generic manga structure. Each arc centers around a single or a few characters, leading up to final boss fight against antagonist of said characters, and after Luffy has went all out against the final boss, the proces will start over. Furthermore the development of a personality will often times heavily stagnate after their arc is over. Robin for instance has seen next to no character development since the Enies Lobby arc ended in 2007(!). A good seven year time-span where she has been a quite generic character. so your saying that only complexity matters when determining a masterpiece?
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Who gives a damn about the medium a story is told through. manga, book, movie or whatever. A good enough writer could make OP into an insane collection of literature, a good enough director could make it one of the best TV series or movies. Its the story rather than the medium. Over a decade of a focused plot and created a world more thorough than anything across all forms of media (including books).
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On November 06 2014 05:55 Hyperbola wrote: One Piece's target market is adolescents. But so are video games. Read what you like and don't justify yourself.
OP's target market were adolescents ten year ago. We are all adults now
I don't think today's generation appreciates OP as much as we do.
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Please stop this ridiculous argument. One piece is a masterpiece compared to presented arguments.
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On November 06 2014 06:47 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 06:06 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 05:25 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2014 05:14 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 04:30 Forikorder wrote:On November 06 2014 04:02 Prog455 wrote:On November 06 2014 01:20 shell wrote: This is not a novel or a romance and no one said it would or should win the nobel prize..
None of the guys you mentioned could do OP.. because they probably can't draw.. But Oda can write.. even if he couldn't write a master piece deserving of a nobel prize.
On the Mozart part I can understand the genius side of him, writing and performing since very young and changing music forever but that doesn't mean that impact reaches everybody!
The thing is i really like manga and i've read dozens of it and this one even tho it's chilish and silly beats the others because it's fun and has a deeper story
Oh and btw the only portuguese writer to win a nober prize was Saramago and he isn't considered in the top5 of portuguese writers.. fame and fortune doesn't make you the best much like lack of recognition doesn't make you bad I didn't comment on whether One Piece should win a Nobel Prize or not. I responded to your post regarding the longtivity of Odas writing. You asked for anyone else that could write for 17 years and maintain a certain degree of consistency in their writing AND maintain some succes. To that i responded that between 1901 and atleast 1947, Thomas Mann wrote several literary classics, that did earn him the Nobel Prize. The fact that he won the Nobel Prize was merely to show that he was somewhat succesful, considering that fact that the Nobel Prize is one of the greatest acknowledgements that an author can get. And while i agree with you that fame and fortune does not equal quality, i also think that it makes next to no sense to discuss mainstream succes if you are not allowed to look at for instance awards, sale numbers or general reception of an author. The reason that i made a reference to Beatles and Mozart was to examplify the difference Oda and for instance Thomas Mann. One Piece is great on it's own merits, like Beatles, but compared to for instance Thomas Mann, One Piece is no masterpiece. well i think thats a bit of a narrow view on the term masterpiece I'd say that the term masterpiece is pretty narrow. i dont understand how you can say that the beatles cant be a masterpiece, but beethoven can or that one piece cannot be a masterpiece by thoms mann can unless you just think its impossible to create a masterpiece if your not doing something classic/standard First of all let me make one thing clear. I am in no position whatsoever to positively decide if something is a masterpiece, given the fact that i myself am no virtuous in any particular field. However, i believe that i am qualified to negatively decide if something, within a field that i am quite familiar with, is a masterpiece or not. If you look at The Beatles for instance, it is quite evident that neither the lyrics nor musical composition of any of their songs are outstanding. As far as One Piece goes, it is generally the same problems that apply. While the story of One Piece is indeed far superior to mangas such as Dragonball, Naruto or Bleach the overall character complexity is still fairly mediocre compared to many other books. One Piece just has a wealth of fairly well crafted personalities, rather than a small group of highly complex characters. And if you look at the actual composition of the story, it follows the same very generic manga structure. Each arc centers around a single or a few characters, leading up to final boss fight against antagonist of said characters, and after Luffy has went all out against the final boss, the proces will start over. Furthermore the development of a personality will often times heavily stagnate after their arc is over. Robin for instance has seen next to no character development since the Enies Lobby arc ended in 2007(!). A good seven year time-span where she has been a quite generic character. so your saying that only complexity matters when determining a masterpiece?
No that is not what i am saying. I am saying that there is different factors that comes into play when you qualify the quality of a certain product. The complexity and depth of the characters is one thing that i would consider in any story. Let me give you a couple of examples.
If i were to review a regular book, i would look at the general flow of the language, the composition and the depth of the story. I would however NOT consider the artwork for the cover of the book, because the book is no about the cover. If i were to review a comic, i would also consider the composition and the depth of the story. I would however not expect the same flow of language as in a novel, because comics are made up of short sentences rather than a wall of text. But where as i was indifferent in regards to the artwork of the novel, i would consider the artwork of a comic to be something to consider.
On November 06 2014 06:42 DarkLordOlli wrote: And a movie is nothing more than a bunch of moving pictures, with sound! One Piece is basically a movie.
I believe that manga in anime bears much more resemblence to each other than novels and movies, yes. If you don't consider fillers, i challenge you to find a movie based on a novel, that follows the novel as closely as the One Piece anime follows the manga.
On November 06 2014 06:58 Chro wrote: Who gives a damn about the medium a story is told through. manga, book, movie or whatever. A good enough writer could make OP into an insane collection of literature, a good enough director could make it one of the best TV series or movies. Its the story rather than the medium. Over a decade of a focused plot and created a world more thorough than anything across all forms of media (including books).
The first part of this quote is exactly my point. When you consider the quality of a story, you should not consider the medium the story is told through. My point however, is exactly the opposite of the rest of the post. I don't believe that One Piece could be turned into world class literature, as i believe the story to be inferior to many great novels. And in regards to the magnitude of the One Piece universe i am quite sure that most people would agree than quantity =/= quality.
The One Piece universe is indeed quite impressive, but it is nevertheless filled with stock characters.
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No that is not what i am saying. I am saying that there is different factors that comes into play when you qualify the quality of a certain product. The complexity and depth of the characters is one thing that i would consider in any story. Let me give you a couple of examples.
If i were to review a regular book, i would look at the general flow of the language, the composition and the depth of the story. I would however NOT consider the artwork for the cover of the book, because the book is no about the cover. If i were to review a comic, i would also consider the composition and the depth of the story. I would however not expect the same flow of language as in a novel, because comics are made up of short sentences rather than a wall of text. But where as i was indifferent in regards to the artwork of the novel, i would consider the artwork of a comic to be something to consider.
but you are saying because the characters are not as complex as they could OP is not a masterpiece
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On November 06 2014 07:32 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +No that is not what i am saying. I am saying that there is different factors that comes into play when you qualify the quality of a certain product. The complexity and depth of the characters is one thing that i would consider in any story. Let me give you a couple of examples.
If i were to review a regular book, i would look at the general flow of the language, the composition and the depth of the story. I would however NOT consider the artwork for the cover of the book, because the book is no about the cover. If i were to review a comic, i would also consider the composition and the depth of the story. I would however not expect the same flow of language as in a novel, because comics are made up of short sentences rather than a wall of text. But where as i was indifferent in regards to the artwork of the novel, i would consider the artwork of a comic to be something to consider. but you are saying because the characters are not as complex as they could OP is not a masterpiece
No that is not what i am saying. I am saying that individual character development is often times limited to a few arcs, and that after that arc ends there is little to no further character development. My example is Robin - a character that has not seen any development in seven years, in spite of being one of the main characters. And that very lack of continuous development is what i dislike about One Piece. Said lack of development is why i say that One Piece is no masterpiece, especially considering that the individual arcs themselves are nothing spectacular in terms of story telling.
One Piece is a wealth of fairly good individual stories that are tied together by Luffy and his crew, but none of the stories themselves are outstanding in any way.
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The thing is Thomas Mann didn't developed the same story for 17 years, he created various works during his working life, like all of the writers/artists do.
Oda has one story to tell and he is telling it in a weekly chapter with 14 to 20 pages since 1997.. that's impressive and amazing to me!
oh and btw i have no problem to tell my girlfriend that i love a caracter named Luffy that is a rubber man in a japanese comic book... it's just one of my many interests!
oh and btw i also like HxH and it sucks balls compared to OP.. first of all OP never had any bad arcs and HxH is just stupid and the author frequently gets into situations where we has trouble getting out! OP doesn't need 1000 words per page to explain the situation.
Nico Robin does have a part to play and the 2 years with the Revolutionaries will make a impact later.. just wait for it
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On November 06 2014 07:47 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On November 06 2014 07:32 Forikorder wrote:No that is not what i am saying. I am saying that there is different factors that comes into play when you qualify the quality of a certain product. The complexity and depth of the characters is one thing that i would consider in any story. Let me give you a couple of examples.
If i were to review a regular book, i would look at the general flow of the language, the composition and the depth of the story. I would however NOT consider the artwork for the cover of the book, because the book is no about the cover. If i were to review a comic, i would also consider the composition and the depth of the story. I would however not expect the same flow of language as in a novel, because comics are made up of short sentences rather than a wall of text. But where as i was indifferent in regards to the artwork of the novel, i would consider the artwork of a comic to be something to consider. but you are saying because the characters are not as complex as they could OP is not a masterpiece No that is not what i am saying. I am saying that individual character development is often times limited to a few arcs, and that after that arc ends there is little to no further character development. My example is Robin - a character that has not seen any development in seven years, in spite of being one of the main characters. And that very lack of continuous development is what i dislike about One Piece. Said lack of development is why i say that One Piece is no masterpiece, especially considering that the individual arcs themselves are nothing spectacular in terms of story telling. One Piece is a wealth of fairly good individual stories that are tied together by Luffy and his crew, but none of the stories themselves are outstanding in any way.
i dont see how what you said could meajn anything other then "becuase the main characters are not complex OP is not a masterpiece"
and i dont see how there individual stories, each arc causes long term changes in the world (expect skypeia i suppose)
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