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Here is the thing tho. RSI wants to churn out free updates and content to its players every two-weeks to a month. That costs a lot of money. They also have to run servers to provide everyone with this giant persistent universe as not everyone will opt to run their own server with limited amount of people. Them being able to raise extra income via cosmetic stuff is helpful to fund this. The best currency selling done by a game-developer that I know of is CCP with EvE. Where players convert "Plex" for in-game isk. Do the players care? No. Why? Because what the person buys via real money can be attained without the purchase of isk.
That is what RSI is doing as well, except their model is limited in how much you can buy every month where in EvE it's essentially limited by your wallet and player demand for plex.. Roberts has stated that if a player decides to purchase 100,000 credits in-game, a person who does not purchase the currency can attain that same credit within 4-5 hours of game time. But that's just an example. Anything you can buy can be attained in-game, contrary to what "pay to win" is which is when items can only be bought with real money or they give players an actual statistical advantage over those who do not purchase.
Some people have more time to play a game, others have more money than time. At the end of the day, both of you will be on a equal footing, one will get there a little faster, but skip out on a lot of fun content in getting there. But the bottom line is, you will be on an equal footing, what will set you apart will be who can actually fly their ship better, at least that is what the general idea is.
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Really cool that they are being inspired by Demon/dark souls for the multiplayer component, that could actually work really well in a game like this... It certainly sounds awesome, but I will try to hold the hype down until it's closer to release.
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On November 23 2012 15:47 BeJe77 wrote: Some people have more time to play a game, others have more money than time. At the end of the day, both of you will be on a equal footing, one will get there a little faster, but skip out on a lot of fun content in getting there. But the bottom line is, you will be on an equal footing, what will set you apart will be who can actually fly their ship better, at least that is what the general idea is.
This is just not true, I got no clue why are people claiming this. This would be true for a singleplayer game or a PvE MMO but this game is going to be PvP. People with more $ = more ingame currency = better ships = advantage in PvP. It is as simple as that. And why I will not be playing the MMO part of the game.
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On November 23 2012 21:26 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 15:47 BeJe77 wrote: Some people have more time to play a game, others have more money than time. At the end of the day, both of you will be on a equal footing, one will get there a little faster, but skip out on a lot of fun content in getting there. But the bottom line is, you will be on an equal footing, what will set you apart will be who can actually fly their ship better, at least that is what the general idea is.
This is just not true, I got no clue why are people claiming this. This would be true for a singleplayer game or a PvE MMO but this game is going to be PvP. People with more $ = more ingame currency = better ships = advantage in PvP. It is as simple as that. And why I will not be playing the MMO part of the game.
You decide that now if you want... Meanwhile the sensible people at least wait for the alpha before making any judgements about the game.. lol
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Honestly, I've had the exact same though for the last two pages. Yes some plans of theirs worry me, but until we are at least close to alpha nothing is really set in stone...
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I think that you can pretty much keep away from the PvP combat part of the game while you level up, if you don't want to spend any money. At least that's how it should be done. There should be a surefire way of making sure some rich kid can't spend $800 and go around making everyone else's life hell as soon as the game comes out. I think this is what they will do TBH, just allow players to stay out of harm's way for a while..
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On November 23 2012 23:57 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On November 23 2012 21:26 -Archangel- wrote:On November 23 2012 15:47 BeJe77 wrote: Some people have more time to play a game, others have more money than time. At the end of the day, both of you will be on a equal footing, one will get there a little faster, but skip out on a lot of fun content in getting there. But the bottom line is, you will be on an equal footing, what will set you apart will be who can actually fly their ship better, at least that is what the general idea is.
This is just not true, I got no clue why are people claiming this. This would be true for a singleplayer game or a PvE MMO but this game is going to be PvP. People with more $ = more ingame currency = better ships = advantage in PvP. It is as simple as that. And why I will not be playing the MMO part of the game. You decide that now if you want... Meanwhile the sensible people at least wait for the alpha before making any judgements about the game.. lol
game is not even in alpha yet and they already have p2w in the form of starter ships for people that put down some money in the kickstarter, that does not bode well at all. Lets just hope they listen to the fans and steer away from that direction as development goes on.
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They wanted to get the funding to make a better game somehow. I don't see why its a problem that a thousand people have a cruiser when the game launches. The other ships are cool and all, but CR has said the great divide will be because of pilot skill. A skilled pilot in a starter ship can beat a decent pilot in a Hornet.
You should also remember that the algorithm that determines the the random space "battle instances" has a skill mmr portion to it, as well as other factors. He has explained this on the site in some detail, and it seems like the best solution given that an EVE style of one universe with hundreds of people battling all at the same time is impossible with current tech.
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Just wanted to say, RSI has been very understanding about my pledges being recorded multiples times. They dealt with it greatly. Already getting a good vibe for all of this.
Thanks to Cycodude for the help too.
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On November 24 2012 04:11 Craze wrote: They wanted to get the funding to make a better game somehow. I don't see why its a problem that a thousand people have a cruiser when the game launches. The other ships are cool and all, but CR has said the great divide will be because of pilot skill. A skilled pilot in a starter ship can beat a decent pilot in a Hornet.
You should also remember that the algorithm that determines the the random space "battle instances" has a skill mmr portion to it, as well as other factors. He has explained this on the site in some detail, and it seems like the best solution given that an EVE style of one universe with hundreds of people battling all at the same time is impossible with current tech.
What about a player starting in the constellation, and a player needs to be more skilled to beat someone who put down some money to get a better starting ship is pretty much definition of p2w.
In my own opinion being able to purchase in game credits with real money is not that big of deal, as mentioned earlier since a player can make that amount in x amount of hours played and they would be on equal footing. The developers need to make money and if someone wants to spend some real money to get x credits thats fine with me, but the key here is that its a defined amount of credits for how whatever money they spent. However when you give out rewards that allows you to start in a for example cargo ship so you can do eg trade missions right away compared to another player who needs to make small amounts of credits in x hours doing easy missions using the starter ship to purchase that cargo ship so he can be on equal footing thats a problem. In a game that is going to have "competitive pvp", where players are going to lose their ship many many times and each time a player is given an x hour headstart over another player because they put down some money, thats effectively buying x hours times whatever number of times they are going to die over the course of the time they play the game that is hundreds and perhaps thousands of hours of advantage. which is a huge difference compared to just buying y amount of credits using real money.
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You had a couple points in there.
1. A constellation will be "tougher" than something cheaper, like a 300i for example. But the smaller ships are much faster and more maneuverable. CR has said you can beat a constellation in a single manned fighter by simply being "better." But if I was to play chicken with you as a 300i against your constellation, I'd lose every time. It may take me 20 hits to down you, and you only 2 or 3 to down me, but it can be done.
2. Yes, players that start right away with a cargo freighter will have an advantage in amassing a trading empire. But they also need infrastructure to protect that freighter unless they want to run low profitability trade missions through safer zones where there is a heavy UEE presence. This means friends that protect their freighter from pirates.
3. I agree that its a significant advantage to have these insured ships, but that advantage is finite as new ships are put into the game that these players will want to fly. They may always have the basic ship that they pledged to buy to fall back on, and that's better than your basic ship if you didn't pledge, but eventually no one is going to want to fly those things to be competitive against others who are using the newest ships and equally importantly, modules.
Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but having read everything RSI has released these are the impressions of the game I have so far. And call me crazy but I trust CR to build the space sim that fans of the genre have always yearned for.
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On November 24 2012 04:49 Shivaz wrote: What about a player starting in the constellation, and a player needs to be more skilled to beat someone who put down some money to get a better starting ship is pretty much definition of p2w.
In my own opinion being able to purchase in game credits with real money is not that big of deal, as mentioned earlier since a player can make that amount in x amount of hours played and they would be on equal footing. The developers need to make money and if someone wants to spend some real money to get x credits thats fine with me, but the key here is that its a defined amount of credits for how whatever money they spent. No this is a huge problem. Because if two competitive players race against each other the one with more $ earned outside the game will always win. Because both can spend same amount of time playing the game while one can also boost his money with $. And that will let him get better ships and better upgrades much faster which in turn will make the amount of time he spends in game give him even more money then the guy that didn't spend $. It is a snowball effect.
Since we are on a starcraft forum I guess you all play/watch SC. Telling us that being able to buy more money and that being OK is like saying it is OK when DRG and MvP play and MvP gains 10% more resources from all his scvs because he payed tournament organizers 500$ up front so they load a special map where blue player get this bonus. So is that OK as well? It is not p2w, DRG will gain same resources but it will take a bit longer and the map has finite resources and both can only have max 200 armies. I am sure that is OK as well then...
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On November 24 2012 05:29 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On November 24 2012 04:49 Shivaz wrote: What about a player starting in the constellation, and a player needs to be more skilled to beat someone who put down some money to get a better starting ship is pretty much definition of p2w.
In my own opinion being able to purchase in game credits with real money is not that big of deal, as mentioned earlier since a player can make that amount in x amount of hours played and they would be on equal footing. The developers need to make money and if someone wants to spend some real money to get x credits thats fine with me, but the key here is that its a defined amount of credits for how whatever money they spent. No this is a huge problem. Because if two competitive players race against each other the one with more $ earned outside the game will always win. Because both can spend same amount of time playing the game while one can also boost his money with $. And that will let him get better ships and better upgrades much faster which in turn will make the amount of time he spends in game give him even more money then the guy that didn't spend $. It is a snowball effect. Since we are on a starcraft forum I guess you all play/watch SC. Telling us that being able to buy more money and that being OK is like saying it is OK when DRG and MvP play and MvP gains 10% more resources from all his scvs because he payed tournament organizers 500$ up front so they load a special map where blue player get this bonus. So is that OK as well? It is not p2w, DRG will gain same resources but it will take a bit longer and the map has finite resources and both can only have max 200 armies. I am sure that is OK as well then... It all depends on the nature of paid bonuses. For exemple if Blizzard started selling master division accounts for a +20$, some people would buy it but even though they would have an advantage in the division, they would end up in their place after a while.
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Silly analogy, the game (SC) is played out over a matter of minutes versus building a character, a business, and pool of resources over a longer amount of time. The game is a completely different genre. If I could buy bullets that hit harder with real cash, or ship modules that gave me greater shields and I ONLY had access to these things with real cash then I would agree with you.
Couple reasons why I think you are mistaken:
1) You are thinking of this games economy like WoW or other MMOs, where the more farming you do the more money you have, or you just buy from farmers. Think of it like EVE. You can become very "good" at this game and make massive amounts of money via a trading empire if that's what you want to do. You don't spend your time running your own shipments, that would be ridiculous. You hire your shipments out, just like a real economy. You can guard these shipments as a merc and make money, just like a private security firm would. You can hijack them, the most risky but profitable way of making cash. Participating in the player run economy, where the merchants/masterminds/ceo's will always be on top (because that's the way the world works) will be extremely profitable for less time invested if you know what you are doing. If you want to pve to make your money you will have a fairly consistent amount you can make for a certain amount of time invested, see EVE.
2) I know the only way for them to continually churn out content is to get a stream of revenue somehow. Subscriptions will decrease the universe's population significantly, in my opinion that is the worst outcome. The only other way to get money in is a micro transaction model, and cosmetics, while cute and loveable, won't generate the kind of revenue stream needed to continue to build content post-release. And if people can purchase a LIMITED amount of credits per month or whatever, that's fine by me, because the more people that participate in the universe the more fun and immersive it will be.
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It is still really, really in development so who knows what is actually going to make it in. They will have to deliver on the people who pledged and expect something in return in some way, that is for sure. What will happen beyond that is anyone's guess.
Right now I'm trying to decide if I want to pledge anything or not. I'll probably end up getting this game just for the single player/Squadron 42 alone, even if that is all that makes it to retail, so I might contribute just for that.
I think some people aren't understanding/don't know what they have stated regarding the multiple-player (and I've read somewhat conflicting things, myself). From what I understand, some of the key multiplayer elements are:
1) Being able to set up factions or "squadrons" which are sort of like small guilds. These can do anything from trading, bounty hunting, pirating, shipboarding, any mix of the above and more.
2) Being "first" to certain areas seems to have some benefit. For example, I read if you discover a new wormhole/warp point it will be named after you. You may also be able to "claim" new discoveries.
3) You can tailor your pvp interaction with other players via some sort of game setting. I'm not 100% sure how this functions, nor do I know if there will be "noob zones," "safe zones," "pvp zones" or anything of that nature.
I got all of that from various parts of the RSI and Star Citizen websites. Some of it may be out of date already. Most of that material (with the exception of parts of #3), seems to heavily favor having more money/ships/equipment FAST and snowballing it and controlling areas/players from there. I could very well see that as being "pay to win," as it is currently stated (again, it is really early, though).
Like I said, I'd probably grab this just for the Squadron 42 content alone, but I would really love this to be the space sim that Freelancer and to an extent even Privateer was supposed to be. Right now, I have my doubts regarding the multiplayer, but there is a lot of time to change things.
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i think people are seeing this as pvp only...which is not the case. you don't have to do pvp if you don't want, you can stick to safer systems in the beginning or do pve scripted events with your friends. if you find yourself fighting against a player in your aurora, you screwed up. there will be safe areas (uee controlled systems) as well as lawless systems. so what if someone else has a ship that can haul more cargo than you? what does that have to do with your game? "they can get stuff faster than you!". so what. maybe a group controls a new system from the beginning...cool, there are 99 other systems. it's only a matter of time before another group challenges their control with similar ships.
i think you'll find these are non-issues in two years time.
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On November 24 2012 09:07 CycoDude wrote: i think people are seeing this as pvp only...which is not the case. you don't have to do pvp if you don't want, you can stick to safer systems in the beginning or do pve scripted events with your friends. if you find yourself fighting against a player in your aurora, you screwed up. there will be safe areas (uee controlled systems) as well as lawless systems. so what if someone else has a ship that can haul more cargo than you? what does that have to do with your game? "they can get stuff faster than you!". so what. maybe a group controls a new system from the beginning...cool, there are 99 other systems. it's only a matter of time before another group challenges their control with similar ships.
i think you'll find these are non-issues in two years time.
I guess we are just understanding the advertised game very differently. From what I've read, the multiplayer it is supposed to be very player-influenced and controlled. That, and there is initially a pretty limited amount of resources available, and the people with better ships and more credits will get more of that share. This isn't advertised like WoW or something where the primary thing people do is group against pve content, and that content is pretty controlled by Blizzard (with lockouts, resets, etc.). The pvp in most MMOs is very structured and controlled to keep the playing field pretty level as well.
This is not how freelancer was, or how this game is currently being advertised. It is supposed to be much more player controlled, so that yes, there may be "safe areas" where you can run missions and be pretty protected, but the real meat of the game is in player-controlled space where the biggest and baddest control weaker players. Again, that is how I'm currently interpreting the game, and that is my experience with other space sims in the past (this may not be the case). Usually the people that start ahead stay ahead, and the people who come later have to play by their rules. That is why it is hard to get newer players involved (again, just past experience with these types of games). And really, isn't the point of multiplayer to interact with other players, not run pve content safe from the threat of player interaction?
We'll see if they continue in the direction they are currently stating, or if I'm just misinterpreting what they've advertised.
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I personally think/hope that Star Citizen will be a bit like EVE, meaning that bigger does not equal better. Take the the Constellation as an example: Except for one turret, all the guns are frontal only. This means that a smaller, and therefore faster, ship should be able to outmaneuver it and avoid most of the damage. I'm pretty sure that this won't be like your typical MMO, where more expensive equipment (the ship) just adds X hp and X damage. Furthermore I think that the pledge ships won't be the absolute best ships for their role. Otherwise people that have pledged for a big ship won't have a lot of possibilities to progress their character. The only real problem I have with the pledge system is that some players will have an infinite resupply of expensive ships and that could be abused in a couple of ways (boarding, kill and salvage, etc.). But these are fairly obvious, so they should find ways to prevent this before launch. All in all i'd say that this discussion is a bit premature considering how early we are in the development and how little we actually know about the business model and economy of the game.
-- I used CycoDude's referral link, but nothing happens when I click the "Verify" button. Can you check if it worked anyway? Don't want you to miss out on potential rewards. =)
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i did get one, but i have no way of confirming who it was.
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Mine still says you Cyco. I had to do it five or six times though.
So lets talk a TL squad. Obviously we're going to have all different types but I feel at the start we should focus on trading. Stockpile some creds. If things go well, get a decent sized freighter and do bigger runs. I know we won't be the only ones thinking this, so we should have another squad that's deticated to robbing/blockading compitition. First off though, we should roll call on whose interested and what ship(s) you have available and roll you wish to play.
Myself - 300i - trading to start, get a decent bankroll and then focus on piracy on the compitition. I will most likely own nothing bigger then a large freighter. Fighting is what I primarily want to do.
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