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Greetings younglings!
Today you're in for a treat as I shall reveal to you the ultimate CCG. The game for real men (and women) who aren't afraid of tackling the hardships and pains to learn it, collect the required cards and sail forever through the seas of suffering before finally being able to win some games.
I present to you Vampire: The Eternal Struggle (VTES in short). You're probably thinking "Bah! Why is this lunatic pestering me with some old bullshit?". Here's why...
Deckbuilding
In most CCGs deckbuilding is pretty straightforward, you have rules like 'No more than 3-4 copies of the same card' and being limited to current legal arc with card choices. Not in VTES. In this glorious game there is no limit on card duplicates in your decks (in VTES you're using two decks because one is for pussies) and all sets ever released are tournament legal (with the exception of exactly 11 cards in total that are banned). Considering that you need one deck of at least 12 cards and another in the range of 60-90 and that there are about 3600 different cards (I might be wrong here) the amount of possible combinations becomes pretty ludicrous.
Multiplayer
This is one of the few (if not the only) CCGs that were designed with multiplayer in mind first and foremost. The right number of people to play the game is 5 (can be more, can be less but with 6+ it can drag too long and 4- can disrupt the table balance with 4 being OK just slightly sub-optimal). This opens up a lot of possibilities since with 5 players a lot can happen, especially that there are plenty of cards that enforce interaction between all of them to varying degrees. Hell, even in the rules you have a chapter about making and breaking deals with other players. Your deck is too strong? Not when 4 people gang up on you. Your deck is too weak? Not a problem if someone across the table can help you out.
Strategy
Taking all of the above into consideration it should be clear by now that strategy in this game is many fathoms deep. You not only have to carefully track the situation on the table, including all the mental games, you have to manage your resources carefully (things poker players should love). The situation on the table shifts constantly and keeps you on the edge of your seat, especially that in this game you can be the last man standing and still lose.
Now, let's talk a bit about the basics...
How do I win?
Each player begins the game with 30 pool, you use it to put vampires into play and play some actions. Most of the actions must be performed by the vampires, who can also attack your prey's (player's to your left) pool. If you manage to reduce your prey to 0 pool you oust him or her, take 1 victory point, replenish some of your pool and move to the next one. Sounds simple enough.
Here's the trick though. You only get points for ousting your prey. If you oust someone else (by accident or by being forced to) you don't get the points but his or her predator (player to the right) does. That's why you need to pay close attention to what's going on since you want to be ousting your prey, defending from your predator and simultaneously trying to prevent other players from ousting their prey.
Awesome isn't it?
Stay tuned in this thread for more. I'll be showing you some basic deck archetypes (because rarely you meet 2 decks that are the same, I'm changing my deck 2-3 times/month) so you can see some of the many options available, which only makes it more awesome. I'll also explain the typical cards and how they work (from politics, through stealth to brute force).
For the impatient, here are the rules (don't put much hope in fully comprehending them): http://www.vekn.net/rulebook
Here's the card list: http://www.vteschecklist.com/
And here's a great resource for some news, decks, podcasts and other resources (I strongly advise reading the Colloquial Dictionary portion of the page): https://vtesone.wordpress.com/
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Seems interesting, but please state some of the key information such as is it a physical CCG or a digital CCG or both, is it available on Steam or other platforms, and maybe put a few screenshots and videos of gameplay in the OP.
Since the websites you linked had no price or download buttons I can only assume its some kind of website based game.
Edit: There are no scroll over highlights for any of the numerous special abilities or keywords on the cards, so you have to search each term on a separate page
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i collected this game for 7 years and had over 20k cards when they cut the support for it
this game doesent suffer from power creep as much as other card games , tho its still present in later editions (heart of nitzchetus should be banned for example) and the general trend that running weenie decks (lots of low cost minions) is the strongest strategy are the minor flaws i see.
still very enjoyable because as OP said if you player gets up to a great start he tends to attract a lot of "table-hate" to keep him down, and if you spend your first turn playing zillahs valley and influencing out Anson , then on the second turn steal your prey 5 pool with parity shift you deserve everything you get.
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On April 28 2015 05:58 Pocom wrote:Seems interesting, but please state some of the key information such as is it a physical CCG or a digital CCG or both, is it available on Steam or other platforms, and maybe put a few screenshots and videos of gameplay in the OP. Since the websites you linked had no price or download buttons I can only assume its some kind of website based game. Edit: There are no scroll over highlights for any of the numerous special abilities or keywords on the cards, so you have to search each term on a separate page
1. It is a "physical" CCG, actual cards. Although you can play it online for free via software like LackeyCCG.
2. The price as with any CCG depends on the deck you'd like to play. Some are really cheap (you can get fully tournament capable deck for as much as $30) and some are really expensive. Since the game isn't being officially released since 2010 it has some problems. WotC considered it too big of a threat to MtG, just like Netrunner - all designed by the same guy btw - and squashed it hard. There were several attempts at revival by different companies and even fans themselves but the biggest problem is that different copyrights belong to half a dozen different entities and it's impossible to get them all. Either way, there's plenty of cards floating around (just check out e-bay), you can even get sealed and unopened decks if you want. Also, VEKN (the player organization that's taking care of tournaments etc.) is now releasing free expansions in PDF form. Usually the hardest thing in building the ultimate deck you want (depending on the deck of course) is the amount of time you have to invest in it (took me 4 years to finish building my EuroBrujah and I got bored with them after a month). At least you don't have to worry about cards you're getting not being legal in a year or two.
3. There are no highlights for the special abilities and such because there really aren't any special abilities in this game (not in a traditional sense).
Basically, each vampire has 4 stats: 1 strength (damage you do to other vampires), 1 bleed (how much pool you can take from your prey in a single action), 0 stealth (for bypassing blocks) and 0 intercept (for blocking). There's also capacity (number in the circle at the bottom right of the vampire, denotes his blood, how much pool you must spend to bring him into play, his age etc.). Most special abilities are either special effects simply written on the vampire/card or influence the stats (+2 strength, +1 stealth etc.).
Vampires also have disciplines at either basic (square) or superior (rhombus) level. Disciplines do not affect the game directly, they're just enablers for the actions the vampire can take.
I'll add more info at a later date. The game is so complex that it's impossible to explain it in a single post. If you have any questions feel free to ask here though.
Here's some more good info: https://vtesone.wordpress.com/ (adding it to the OP)
this game doesent suffer from power creep as much as other card games , tho its still present in later editions (heart of nitzchetus should be banned for example) and the general trend that running weenie decks (lots of low cost minions) is the strongest strategy are the minor flaws i see.
I'd like to disagree here. Sure, there are some really strong cards, but the last major offenders are Lilith's Blessing (banned) and Villein (which was broken when LB was around, now it's OK).
Heart of Nizchetus is a really strong card but it only really works in several decks, and even then it can always be contested, blocked, destroyed and such. No biggie.
I'll have to strongly disagree on the weenie side of things though. There are very few weenie decks floating around recently and there's a strong presence of decks with 8+ capacity vampires only. There's also plenty of ally decks, but I wouldn't count them as weenie.
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I'll have to strongly disagree on the weenie side of things though. There are very few weenie decks floating around recently and there's a strong presence of decks with 8+ capacity vampires only. There's also plenty of ally decks, but I wouldn't count them as weenie.
well , in my meta weenies used to be all the rage , you couldent have a table with either Pander vote , Cel-Gun, weenie auspex or tupdogs
also the fact that dominate is an incredibly strong discipline (Deflection , Obedience , Govern the Unaligned), well , i wouldent say its overpowerd per se, but you cant run a high cap deck that doesent in some way use dominate or auspex (unless you do extremly tricky shit like cybele great beast)
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On April 28 2015 18:19 Irratonalys wrote:Show nested quote + I'll have to strongly disagree on the weenie side of things though. There are very few weenie decks floating around recently and there's a strong presence of decks with 8+ capacity vampires only. There's also plenty of ally decks, but I wouldn't count them as weenie.
well , in my meta weenies used to be all the rage , you couldent have a table with either Pander vote , Cel-Gun, weenie auspex or tupdogs also the fact that dominate is an incredibly strong discipline (Deflection , Obedience , Govern the Unaligned), well , i wouldent say its overpowerd per se, but you cant run a high cap deck that doesent in some way use dominate or auspex (unless you do extremly tricky shit like cybele great beast)
Enkidu would like to disagree with you
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Enkidu would like to disagree with you
until he gets hit by pentex subversion or Protect thine own you mean? No , high caps can run vote decks (mainly because of strong abilities like Arikas or Lutz von Hohenzollerns). And if everyone plays like a more gimmicky fun deck you can make a combat deck involving one high cap work , but in general these vampires are incredibly vulnerable to stuff like pentex or sensory deprivation
What was the trickiest most creative deck you ever played btw? For me it was a deck involving Lorenzo Detuono (burn 5 blood at the end of combat to move the opposing non ready minion to your ready region) and Illusion of the Kindred. The Idea was to have a crypt of maybe 4-5 Ravnos with superior chimestry and 12 times Lorenzo. Bring out one of the Ravnos , get into Combat, play Illusion of the Kindred to get a full Lorenzo, use Immortal grapple and burning wrath for a secure torpor and use his ability to get the vampire. the 5 blood cost is not an issue because you get a fresh lorenzo from your crypt every combat with your Illusion of the Kindred.
That Deck never really worked because the combo is too long , but it was fun when it worked ^^
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Caitiff vote veck - get a Praxis Seizure 1st turn or lose the game.
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I just started Netrunner one week ago so how would you describe this card game in regards to Netrunner ?
What are the major differences in the flow of the game and accessability in terms of rules and cards acquisition ?
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On April 29 2015 00:11 Samcai wrote: I just started Netrunner one week ago so how would you describe this card game in regards to Netrunner ?
What are the major differences in the flow of the game and accessability in terms of rules and cards acquisition ?
Well, differences in flow can't really be discussed since they're 2 completely different games. One of which is strictly heads-up and the other one strictly multi-player.
As far as accessibility goes, the rules might overwhelm most people in the beginning (there's plenty of them, and then you get special rules for calling referendums, blood hunts etc. etc.) but once you've seen one game being played you should grasp enough of it to be able to play. After that it's gaining experience.
Card accessibility depends on several factors. Most decks can be built fairly cheaply - Reasonably Priced Decks section on VTES ONE has a decent selection of beginner decks that you can play even against normal decks, you can build them for around 5EUR/deck. Usually, for a tournament-capable deck you'll have to spend around 30-100EUR (focus on getting the right master cards first, like pentex subversion etc. since they're expensive but you'll be using them in almost every deck so you shave its cost on each subsequent deck you build). That is, unless you have very deep pockets, good connections etc. then you can even go for decks like Warghoul, Tupdogs, Nephandus, Shambling Hordes (basically, ally decks). They can get obnoxiously expensive since you need plenty of expensive cards for them and it's hard to find people willing to part with them even if the price is right. Apart from some extreme cases collecting VTES is definitely cheaper than any current CCG.
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I bought into the game some when it first came out as Jyhad. It's a good game, but it's out of print which means even if you want to get into it, it's not easy to get other players in or find opponents. Certainly you might find an existing player base in your area, but if not then that's a major problem. For me it would mean I would have to provide enough decks for all my gaming group.
I always hoped that maybe it would come back as an LCG by fantasy flight or someone else with set card contents to make it easier to get my gaming group into the game. Back when Jyhad was first out, our local groups all played with 4 card limits, but I believe that VTES players play no card limits for deck construction, which is the number one objection it seems from VTES players to re-releasing as an LCG. All the FFG Living Card Games have 3 card limits. It seems like the designers could make 3 card limits work though by introducing more cards that do similar effects, but I know many VTES players disagree. I don't quite understand their objection though since it's not like it would prevent groups who have all the old stuff from continuing to play with their current groups and original cards.
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On April 29 2015 05:39 karazax wrote: I bought into the game some when it first came out as Jyhad. It's a good game, but it's out of print which means even if you want to get into it, it's not easy to get other players in or find opponents. Certainly you might find an existing player base in your area, but if not then that's a major problem. For me it would mean I would have to provide enough decks for all my gaming group.
I always hoped that maybe it would come back as an LCG by fantasy flight or someone else with set card contents to make it easier to get my gaming group into the game. Back when Jyhad was first out, our local groups all played with 4 card limits, but I believe that VTES players play no card limits for deck construction, which is the number one objection it seems from VTES players to re-releasing as an LCG. All the FFG Living Card Games have 3 card limits. It seems like the designers could make 3 card limits work though by introducing more cards that do similar effects, but I know many VTES players disagree. I don't quite understand their objection though since it's not like it would prevent groups who have all the old stuff from continuing to play with their current groups and original cards.
I can hardly see how it could work. Some of the coolest and most amazing decks have 12-40 copies of a given card. The change to 3-4 card limit would be possible, but the game wouldn't really be the same any more. I know it might promote more diverse decks, but focused ones (ie: good ones) are going to take a big hit.
Just looking through my decks, even the most diversified and toolboxy ones can't really operate below at least 6 copies of several different cards in the deck.
By setting the card limit you also throw out the entire combat deck type out the window. Maybe not all of them but stuff like animalism or potence simply can't operate without having 12+ copies of key cards.
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On April 29 2015 06:13 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2015 05:39 karazax wrote: I bought into the game some when it first came out as Jyhad. It's a good game, but it's out of print which means even if you want to get into it, it's not easy to get other players in or find opponents. Certainly you might find an existing player base in your area, but if not then that's a major problem. For me it would mean I would have to provide enough decks for all my gaming group.
I always hoped that maybe it would come back as an LCG by fantasy flight or someone else with set card contents to make it easier to get my gaming group into the game. Back when Jyhad was first out, our local groups all played with 4 card limits, but I believe that VTES players play no card limits for deck construction, which is the number one objection it seems from VTES players to re-releasing as an LCG. All the FFG Living Card Games have 3 card limits. It seems like the designers could make 3 card limits work though by introducing more cards that do similar effects, but I know many VTES players disagree. I don't quite understand their objection though since it's not like it would prevent groups who have all the old stuff from continuing to play with their current groups and original cards. I can hardly see how it could work. Some of the coolest and most amazing decks have 12-40 copies of a given card. The change to 3-4 card limit would be possible, but the game wouldn't really be the same any more. I know it might promote more diverse decks, but focused ones (ie: good ones) are going to take a big hit. Just looking through my decks, even the most diversified and toolboxy ones can't really operate below at least 6 copies of several different cards in the deck. By setting the card limit you also throw out the entire combat deck type out the window. Maybe not all of them but stuff like animalism or potence simply can't operate without having 12+ copies of key cards.
I haven't played it since the first year Jyhad was released, and we played with 4 card limits, but it seems like they could make more new cards that are similar to existing cards so you don't need that many copies of the exact same card. So maybe you have multiple animalism or potence cards with minor differences. Or maybe not. It would be interesting to see FFG try. It seems like it would be very difficult to design new cards for a game with no card limit, and I would guess that part of the reason you need at least 6-40 copies of various cards to make a deck is that they wouldn't see any need to make more cards that are similar to ones that already exist.
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One of the reasons why VTES has avoided power creep and remained fairly balanced for over 20 years is because of no card limit. Most CCGs tend to work in cycles, with new and more powerful cards coming out each expansion (because no one would buy them if expansions had weaker cards) and the end of the release cycle usually sees the most broken cards and decks possible. Then they reset with new arc, probably allowing some of the non-broken old cards to go through but majority being obsoleted/banned and you have to build your deck again.
It's much harder to do in VTES (and I think it's a good thing) because you can't make a very powerful card and justify it by saying "well, you can only have 3 of those in the deck so no biggie". Since there's no card limit and all cards are tournament-legal you have to balance each new card against all those factors. This makes releasing new and exciting stuff pretty hard.
But it also has positives. First and foremost is very slow power creep, better balance and more stable meta-game. The other good thing about it is that if you build a good deck and you like playing it you can be sure that you'll be able to continue to do so years from now if you wish. I mean, some of the best decks that you see at the tournaments were designed in the 90's and they survived up until this day with minor changes and variations to accomodate for the new releases.
For example, here's the Nosferatu Royalty deck I'm playing now and then and I adore it:
Deck Name: Nosferatu Royalty
Crypt (Capacity min=4 max=9 avg=7.17; 12 cards) ================================================== 1x Agrippina 4 pot OBF Nosferatu:1 2x Calebros, The Martyr 5 obf pot ANI Nosferatu:2 3x Nikolaus Vermeulen 7 ani for obf POT Nosferatu:2 3x Selma the Repugnant 8 ani for OBF POT Nosferatu:1 3x Sheldon, Lord of the Clog 9 for ANI AUS OBF POT Nosferatu:1
Library (90 cards) ===================== Master (18 cards) 1x Coven, The 1x Dark Influences 1x Elysium: The Palace of Versailles 1x Giant's Blood 1x Labyrinth, The 1x Pentex(TM) Subversion 1x Perfectionist 1x Secure Haven 1x Slum Hunting Ground 1x Two Wrongs 4x Villein 2x Warsaw Station 2x Wash
Action (10 cards) 2x Abactor 1x Army of Rats 2x Fifth Tradition: Hospitality 4x Fourth Tradition: The Accounting 1x SchreckNET
Political Action (16 cards) 1x Ancient Influence 1x Ancilla Empowerment 1x Banishment 1x Domain Challenge 9x Kine Resources Contested 3x Parity Shift
Equipment (2 cards) 2x Camera Phone
Action Modifier (26 cards) 2x Closed Session 2x Elder Impersonation 4x Faceless Night 2x Forgotten Labyrinth 6x Freak Drive 4x Lost in Crowds 4x Old Friends 2x Spying Mission
Reaction (8 cards) 2x Mental Maze 6x Second Tradition: Domain
Combat (6 cards) 4x No Trace 2x Superior Mettle
Combo (4 cards) 4x Swallowed by the Night
Created with Secret Library v0.9.4c. (Apr 30, 2015 13:18:14)
The cool thing with addition of some new cards is that you don't have to rely on the same old Legendary Vampire + Parity Shift combo, which made this a rather one-dimensional deck. Now you can better adapt to the situation on the table and rarely feel completely useless. The deck is also much less vulnerable to things that were otherwise hard counters to it.
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