On July 24 2016 06:50 Purind wrote: BW introduced team preview, which is funny since many players (every single non-competitive player...) don't even know of this mechanic
I think I agree about Gen 4. Not my fav gen by any means, but the effect that it had... let me put it this way. I absolutely cannot go back to playing Gen 1-3 pokemon games solely because of the phys/special split
Pokemon "story" is not so much about the plot as it is about the lore and worldbuilding. If you look at it as a game about a kid saving the world from an evil team then becoming the greatest trainer ever, then yeah all of them are super lame. But Pokemon is about becoming a part of the world and getting lost in the lore/region. As a region, Unova felt more fleshed out, especially with the game treating gym leaders as actual characters and human beings with lives rather than JUST trainers who sit in the gym all day waiting for challengers. That said, I couldn't really get interested in Unova's lore. As much as I loved some of the cities like Castelia and Nimbasa, I just didn't care about Reshiram/Zekrom, the genies or any of the musketeers
As for marketing material, I saw the three starters (just the baby forms. Nowhere near Charizard or Greninja's level), Zoroark/Zorua and legends like Victini/Genesect used in their marketing. All-in-all pretty forgetable, though there were quite a few that I liked
The memorable ones that people always talk about are Garbodor and Vanilluxe, though they aren't exactly memorable in good ways
My post was all over the place. I think I mostly agree with deth, I just think he's being a little harsh on Gen 5
It's a shame you haven't played BW2. I'd like to get your opinion on it. Story was far worse, but the pokemon selection is great. You could get lots of interesting stuff (like Riolu, Azurill, Growlithe, Magnemite, Magby) before getting your 2nd badge. I'm curious if you would have enjoyed gen 5 more if you had more interesting pokemon to choose from
Team preview was kind of a big deal for the VGC circuit, but I always played on Shoddy/PO/Showdown so I never really cared about it. I dunno, I'd never buy B/W2 but I may emulate them at some point if I get bored enough.
To be honest I don't remember much if any of the story or characters from B/W to comment on them, it was just that forgettable. All I remember is that there were idiot groups arguing over what relationship pokemon/humans should have and I was just a passive observer of their drivel without contributing.
I'm talking about recent marketing material, though, both official and unofficial. You see Pokemon from virtually every generation at Nintendo events and in banners here and there, and all I can really think of is the grass starter and Victini that are still getting any kind of face time and virtually none at that, whereas there's a handful from every other generation that show up pretty consistently.
don't play vanilla gen5 if you're going to play on emulator, I mean sure you should try to experience it once but if you want to have fun play blaze black 2/volt white 2, makes it the best shit ever.
Yellow was my first pokemon game. Didn't have a handheld for a while until the DS. I got it right around the time Platinum was released. I skipped the next few generations because I kept waiting for the third game in the generation because that's all I played so far.
On July 24 2016 10:44 BLinD-RawR wrote: don't play vanilla gen5 if you're going to play on emulator, I mean sure you should try to experience it once but if you want to have fun play blaze black 2/volt white 2, makes it the best shit ever.
I didn't know he updated it for 2 as well, that should be fun.
On July 24 2016 11:51 andrewlt wrote: Yellow was my first pokemon game. Didn't have a handheld for a while until the DS. I got it right around the time Platinum was released. I skipped the next few generations because I kept waiting for the third game in the generation because that's all I played so far.
I'm so excited for hyper training! I was always try to avoid picking up event Pokes because I knew it'd be a bitch to get the right IVs for them. Not to mention Hidden Power too.
I was so annoyed when they fed me a Lati in ORAS because I knew the importance of Latis in competitive. It's something I haven't been shake off since learning about competitive. Now I can play without worries, just need the correct nature on em.
Now they just need to have the essential stuff like Stealth Rock, Defog, Knock Off etc on TMs/NPCs and we are good to go. I had so much fun Wifi battling on XY, it's just different mood-wise from Showdown.
On July 24 2016 06:50 Purind wrote: BW introduced team preview, which is funny since many players (every single non-competitive player...) don't even know of this mechanic
I think I agree about Gen 4. Not my fav gen by any means, but the effect that it had... let me put it this way. I absolutely cannot go back to playing Gen 1-3 pokemon games solely because of the phys/special split
Pokemon "story" is not so much about the plot as it is about the lore and worldbuilding. If you look at it as a game about a kid saving the world from an evil team then becoming the greatest trainer ever, then yeah all of them are super lame. But Pokemon is about becoming a part of the world and getting lost in the lore/region. As a region, Unova felt more fleshed out, especially with the game treating gym leaders as actual characters and human beings with lives rather than JUST trainers who sit in the gym all day waiting for challengers. That said, I couldn't really get interested in Unova's lore. As much as I loved some of the cities like Castelia and Nimbasa, I just didn't care about Reshiram/Zekrom, the genies or any of the musketeers
As for marketing material, I saw the three starters (just the baby forms. Nowhere near Charizard or Greninja's level), Zoroark/Zorua and legends like Victini/Genesect used in their marketing. All-in-all pretty forgetable, though there were quite a few that I liked
The memorable ones that people always talk about are Garbodor and Vanilluxe, though they aren't exactly memorable in good ways
My post was all over the place. I think I mostly agree with deth, I just think he's being a little harsh on Gen 5
It's a shame you haven't played BW2. I'd like to get your opinion on it. Story was far worse, but the pokemon selection is great. You could get lots of interesting stuff (like Riolu, Azurill, Growlithe, Magnemite, Magby) before getting your 2nd badge. I'm curious if you would have enjoyed gen 5 more if you had more interesting pokemon to choose from
Team preview was kind of a big deal for the VGC circuit, but I always played on Shoddy/PO/Showdown so I never really cared about it. I dunno, I'd never buy B/W2 but I may emulate them at some point if I get bored enough.
You can't be serious about team preview only being a big deal for doubles. It fundamentally changed how the opening turns of the game play out and removed a lot of randomness in battles.
Gen 5 also added hidden abilities which greatly expanded the number of viable pokemon to play with. There are definite issues with the balancing, but the infinite weather war was probably one of the most interesting dynamics in competitive pokemon.
On July 24 2016 06:50 Purind wrote: BW introduced team preview, which is funny since many players (every single non-competitive player...) don't even know of this mechanic
I think I agree about Gen 4. Not my fav gen by any means, but the effect that it had... let me put it this way. I absolutely cannot go back to playing Gen 1-3 pokemon games solely because of the phys/special split
Pokemon "story" is not so much about the plot as it is about the lore and worldbuilding. If you look at it as a game about a kid saving the world from an evil team then becoming the greatest trainer ever, then yeah all of them are super lame. But Pokemon is about becoming a part of the world and getting lost in the lore/region. As a region, Unova felt more fleshed out, especially with the game treating gym leaders as actual characters and human beings with lives rather than JUST trainers who sit in the gym all day waiting for challengers. That said, I couldn't really get interested in Unova's lore. As much as I loved some of the cities like Castelia and Nimbasa, I just didn't care about Reshiram/Zekrom, the genies or any of the musketeers
As for marketing material, I saw the three starters (just the baby forms. Nowhere near Charizard or Greninja's level), Zoroark/Zorua and legends like Victini/Genesect used in their marketing. All-in-all pretty forgetable, though there were quite a few that I liked
The memorable ones that people always talk about are Garbodor and Vanilluxe, though they aren't exactly memorable in good ways
My post was all over the place. I think I mostly agree with deth, I just think he's being a little harsh on Gen 5
It's a shame you haven't played BW2. I'd like to get your opinion on it. Story was far worse, but the pokemon selection is great. You could get lots of interesting stuff (like Riolu, Azurill, Growlithe, Magnemite, Magby) before getting your 2nd badge. I'm curious if you would have enjoyed gen 5 more if you had more interesting pokemon to choose from
Team preview was kind of a big deal for the VGC circuit, but I always played on Shoddy/PO/Showdown so I never really cared about it. I dunno, I'd never buy B/W2 but I may emulate them at some point if I get bored enough.
You can't be serious about team preview only being a big deal for doubles. It fundamentally changed how the opening turns of the game play out and removed a lot of randomness in battles.
Gen 5 also added hidden abilities which greatly expanded the number of viable pokemon to play with. There are definite issues with the balancing, but the infinite weather war was probably one of the most interesting dynamics in competitive pokemon.
You and I have a different definition of "interesting" and Shoddy let you see your opponent's team either way IIRC (even if you didn't, you learned your opponents' teams quickly once you got to the top of the ladder and faced 5-6 people all the time). It didn't really matter online and there isn't a robust online scene for in-game battling, so VGC is all that's left.
Secret abilities were fine but not interesting since it was just more of the same.
Shoddy did not do team preview gen 4, and the fact that only playing against 4 or 5 people to you seems like a good reason to discount how profound of a change team preview is is quite silly.
Hidden abilities' impact was huge, not in the concept itself but in application. The amount of pokemon it made viable and the strategies opened up is massive. The new abilities given to old pokemon are also really noteworthy, and all of a sudden those old weather related abilities were actually relevant.
New moves also had a huge effect on the metagame. Just because they didn't fundamentally change an existing mechanic or add a brand new mechanic doesn't mean that the game didn't do much to change things up. That would be like saying Brood War didn't really do much to improve over Starcraft, which I would consider a clearly absurd statement.
If you play older gens on Showdown, they hide the team. That's how the game worked in Gen 4. If it's true what you say about Shoddy, then I don't think it's fair to include Shoddy as part of Gen 4, as now we're stepping outside of how the games are actually like. It's like taking Rom hacks and considering those as part of Gen 5 (even worse I'd say, as atleast the Gen5 Rom hacks follow the rules of Gen 5)
I agree on Hidden Abilities. I was going to mention them, but from a competitive standpoint, it was just another ability. I think even stuff like Spore mechanics on grass types is a more fundamentally impactful change. Big fundamental changes would be things like phys/spec split, new typings or the inclusion of megas. I wouldn't include Hidden Abilities as part of those fundamentally big changes, just like how I wouldn't count stat buffs to Roserade and Alakazam. Sure, it just so happened that they gave two pokemon a HA that shaped the way competitive was played, but they coulda done that without HAs (just change an ability) and it would have had the same impact. It's more of an impactful (game breaking) buff than it is a fundamental change to how the game works/functions
From a more casual viewpoint, Gen 5 had the Dream World, which was weird and they didn't really feel like bringing back in later gens. They shut it down though, so I don't know if it's fair to include that. It was unique and different, but you can't experience that anymore
Another weird thing they added in Gen 5 was Rotations. I love it and had tons of fun with it, but from a competitive standpoint, it's just really terrible. Pokemon already has plenty of 50-50s. Now imagine if each of those 50-50s had their own 50-50s. It's just really weird and clusterfucky (but I still love it!)
Also agree on weather wars. I hated Gen 5 weather wars so much and I hate VGC 2016. I'd even prefer VGC 2015, fighting the same 5 mons (Kangaskhan and friends) game after game after game.
Even if you just consider the changes "buffs", you can't really say that it doesn't fundamentally change how the game works because of how much it had an effect on how you played. Increasing the number of potential abilities from 2 to 3 is about as big of a change as from 1 to 2, and arguably with the broken nature of many hidden abilities compared to most pokemon's second abilities, it was even bigger. Given just how much the game was influenced by this, I think Gen 5's particular mix of new abilities was as big a change as adding a 5th move or 7th roster slot would be.
Consider that stall as a playstyle more or less died in gen 5. The main reason for this was the diversity that gen 5 brought making it too difficult to account for them all in regular play.
On July 26 2016 06:08 chocorush wrote: Shoddy did not do team preview gen 4, and the fact that only playing against 4 or 5 people to you seems like a good reason to discount how profound of a change team preview is is quite silly.
Hidden abilities' impact was huge, not in the concept itself but in application. The amount of pokemon it made viable and the strategies opened up is massive. The new abilities given to old pokemon are also really noteworthy, and all of a sudden those old weather related abilities were actually relevant.
New moves also had a huge effect on the metagame. Just because they didn't fundamentally change an existing mechanic or add a brand new mechanic doesn't mean that the game didn't do much to change things up. That would be like saying Brood War didn't really do much to improve over Starcraft, which I would consider a clearly absurd statement.
Now we're just off-topic. I said B/W is the worst generation and none of this disproves that. Of course it affected the competitive metagame, every game does, that doesn't make it good.
"disproves that" You do realize that's very much just your opinion and disproving opinions is quite hard? As far as i'm concerned D/P/Pt were by and far the absolute worst series of games in almost every single regard and was the least fun i've ever had in pokémon with only HGSS redeeming gen 4 at all. But that's just my opinion, not a fact.
On July 26 2016 07:16 chocorush wrote: Even if you just consider the changes "buffs", you can't really say that it doesn't fundamentally change how the game works because of how much it had an effect on how you played. Increasing the number of potential abilities from 2 to 3 is about as big of a change as from 1 to 2, and arguably with the broken nature of many hidden abilities compared to most pokemon's second abilities, it was even bigger. Given just how much the game was influenced by this, I think Gen 5's particular mix of new abilities was as big a change as adding a 5th move or 7th roster slot would be.
Consider that stall as a playstyle more or less died in gen 5. The main reason for this was the diversity that gen 5 brought making it too difficult to account for them all in regular play.
What you say makes sense and I agree fully. I never meant to dispute the fact that Gen 5 competitive is different from previous Gens. I realize that a lot of your comments are in defense of "What did Gen 5 bring competitively?" comment and there's no denying the effect things like drizzletoed, Scald and Ferrothorn had. I have nothing to add and agree with you.
I'd like to shift the goal posts a little and ask "What did Gen 5 bring to the masses?" Things like Prankster Thundie, Drizzle Politoed are aspects that are important to people like you and me, who are already huge diehard Pokemon fans, but the masses do not consume Pokemon the way we do and more than 99% of the people who played BW/BW2 aren't affected by how the metagame shapes up. In thinking about it, there are actually some pretty important things. I'm not gonna mention story/characters, I've already said what I wanted to about that
- Unlimited use TMs - Join Avenue - Earlier I brushed off Hidden abilities, but there are things tied to HA like grottos and Dream World - Rotation battles - Shaking grass (Audino hunting. I believe the shaking grass mechanic is a Gen 5 thing, correct me if I'm wrong) - Repel mechanics. Can't remember if this started in Gen 5, but I think it did. When a Repel ran out, the game would prompt you to ask if you wanna use another one
Just some things that players who spend less than 100 hours would notice. The Repel thing and unlimited TMs is something that doesn't affect how competitive fundamentally (might take longer to build a team, but it has no effect on the end result of how a team looks like) but are HUGE for casual players
So while the changes are not exactly head-turning changes that would sell the game to the masses, they certainly do make a big difference to people playing the game
A whole mess of things. Aloa form which due to different climates of aloa, now have diffferent types and apperances. Exeuggtor is the best. Not quite sure what i think of Z-moves though.
Also according to Serebii we will get more info August 12th.
So does every pokemon get a specific Z-move or is it just all Water types have this Z move, all Fire this one, etc. And if so, can it only be used by monotype pokemon or can dual type choose to use either one?
In competitive, how the hell do you balance around that? Can tanky pokemon and walls actually stand up to Z moves from Pokemon they could normally just wall?
A whole mess of things. Aloa form which due to different climates of aloa, now have diffferent types and apperances. Exeuggtor is the best. Not quite sure what i think of Z-moves though.
Also according to Serebii we will get more info August 12th.
While I like the idea of "new climate means the pokemon 'evolved' in different ways" what if I want an actual Vulpix? Also I'm scared as fuck that we might actually not have gym leaders anymore, these "island challenges" sound like they could replace them
A whole mess of things. Aloa form which due to different climates of aloa, now have diffferent types and apperances. Exeuggtor is the best. Not quite sure what i think of Z-moves though.
Also according to Serebii we will get more info August 12th.
While I like the idea of "new climate means the pokemon 'evolved' in different ways" what if I want an actual Vulpix? Also I'm scared as fuck that we might actually not have gym leaders anymore, these "island challenges" sound like they could replace them
From what I get, the challenges are things you have to do to unlock the "Kahunas" which are basically the new gym leaders.