Outside of competitive play, entry hazards are totally meaningless.
Nintendo Switch Thread - Page 68
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Outside of competitive play, entry hazards are totally meaningless. | ||
B.I.G.
3251 Posts
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Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2017 19:06 Frolossus wrote: the problem with competitive is how it doesn't match the idea of pokemon being a monster raising sim at all. like i said before it feels like a TCG instead. What's wrong with that? Competitive Pokemon is what the competitive community wants it to be (and they honestly have more say over how competitive play "feels" than the the game designers do in many ways given how heavily competitive Pokemon is curated by rulesets), and that's fine. Given how far Showdown developed as the primary means to play/practice competitive, most of the competitive community isn't interested in "monster raising sim" aspect of Pokemon anyway. Most competitive players would rather have complete fine-tuned control over their Pokemon down to the numerical IV/EV level, and for years competitive teams were generated with cheat devices. It's only really the addition of improved player control of various elements of breeding and training that allowed some crossover between the competitive and breeding subgroups of the fanbase. | ||
Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On November 18 2017 19:19 TheYango wrote: What's wrong with that? Competitive Pokemon is what the competitive community wants it to be (and they honestly have more say over how competitive play "feels" than the the game designers do in many ways given how heavily competitive Pokemon is curated by rulesets), and that's fine. Given how far Showdown developed as the primary means to play/practice competitive, most of the competitive community isn't interested in "monster raising sim" aspect of Pokemon anyway. Most competitive players would rather have complete fine-tuned control over their Pokemon down to the numerical IV/EV level, and for years competitive teams were generated with cheat devices. It's only really the addition of improved player control of various elements of breeding and training that allowed some crossover between the competitive and breeding subgroups of the fanbase. that is a result of being stuck with all of these game mechanics that they put in and never intended to be exploited in the ways they were in the first place. it's more like they want this type of competitive game because no better options ever came into existence. the core gameplay ideas of the franchise are collecting and raising but somehow those got buried by concepts of "optimal pokemon" and "event-only movesets". netbattle/shoddy/pokemon online/showdown/whatever it will be in another 5 years only exist because making real pokemon all the time feels terrible to do and takes hundreds of hours. you know, the part where the player is actually supposed to play the game. it's a result of failure of the game mechanics to make actually raising pokemon be fun and optimal pokemon forcing you to discard 99% of them. if there was any sane system for doing any of these things or the mechanics that forced these types of min/maxing didn't exist then the need for sims wouldn't have been created in the first place. for example if players couldn't see or control any of their stat rolls then battling would be much more reactive and engaging. not being able to say you have a guaranteed 2hko on X pokemon with Y move all the time would help so much for relating the feeling of playing the campaign to playing against other people. the way the game turned into feels like i'm playing math homework instead of a game | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2017 19:34 Frolossus wrote: for example if players couldn't see or control any of their stat rolls then battling would be much more reactive and engaging. None of the things we're talking about *are* ever shown to the player, nor are they given direct control of any of them. All the information we have available is because everything about the games was reverse-engineered, and Nintendo only half-gave us ways to alter them via breeding/alternatives to training only after the cat was out of the bag. Every competitive community is always going to strive to get as much information out of the system as possible. Even if the game didn't show you your core stats and their growth was totally randomized rather than being controlled by EVs, then hackers would have reverse-engineered the pseudorandom number generation used to generate those values and control them. People were already changing their DS clocks to generate 31-IV mons in Gens 4-5 because the community reverse-engineered how IVs are generated. There isn't really any amount of information hiding you could do that would prevent people from figuring it out and utilizing it to gain an advantage in competitive play. | ||
Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On November 18 2017 19:48 TheYango wrote: None of the things we're talking about *are* ever shown to the player, nor are they given direct control of any of them. All the information we have available is because everything about the games was reverse-engineered, and Nintendo only half-gave us ways to alter them via breeding/alternatives to training only after the cat was out of the bag. Every competitive community is always going to strive to get as much information out of the system as possible. Even if the game didn't show you your core stats and their growth was totally randomized rather than being controlled by EVs, then hackers would have reverse-engineered the pseudorandom number generation used to generate those values and control them. People were already changing their DS clocks to generate 31-IV mons in Gens 4-5 because the community reverse-engineered how IVs are generated. There isn't really any amount of information hiding you could do that would prevent people from figuring it out and utilizing it to gain an advantage in competitive play. have a server randomly assign stat rolls within a range every time you queue up for a match. problem solved and the game becomes interesting again. also don't display hp number below the bar this sort of game would actually reward you for raising a set of pokemon because all of the min-maxing goes completely out the window. it would also actually force them to design other systems to make pokemon seem unique from each other. i really like the glorified spinda pattern idea for this more than hidden stat influencing genetics. natures should have been retooled to be the natural evolution of how traded pokemon could loaf around if you didn't have enough badges. not just another sort of hidden stat modifier | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2017 19:53 Frolossus wrote: have a server randomly assign stat rolls within a range every time you queue up for a match. problem solved and the game becomes interesting again. also don't display hp number below the bar this sort of game would actually reward you for raising a set of pokemon because all of the min-maxing goes completely out the window That doesn't throw min-maxing out the window at all. It just turns deterministic outcomes into probabilistic ones based on the roll ranges. The best choices are still the best choices, they just have a chance to fail that the player has to filter out in their decision making. | ||
Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On November 18 2017 19:59 TheYango wrote: That doesn't throw min-maxing out the window at all. It just turns deterministic outcomes into probabilistic ones based on the roll ranges. The best choices are still the best choices, they just have a chance to fail that the player has to filter out in their decision making. which is more engaging gameplay for the player and doesn't force them to discard all of their terrible pokemon. also a battle factory-styled limited format would be really cool as an alternative mode. | ||
Gahlo
United States34964 Posts
On November 18 2017 18:07 B.I.G. wrote: Gen 1 was all about alakazam with high speed (or whatever the stat is called) one hitting people with psychic right? | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On November 18 2017 20:02 Frolossus wrote: which is more engaging gameplay for the player and doesn't force them to discard all of their terrible pokemon. also a battle factory-styled limited format would be really cool as an alternative mode. I don't think probabilistic hidden-information games are inherently more engaging than deterministic ones. It's just a design choice, what you're describing isn't objectively better. Probabilistic games have their upsides (determining optimal lines of play is generally more complex due to the nature of hidden information) but also their downsides (they're subject to randomness of outcomes, which are generally not viewed favorably in competitive games). You also have to accommodate the fact that Pokemon is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. While the competitive player would like his "bad" Pokemon's stats to not matter, the breeder wants the perfect Pokemon he's bred to have value for his time investment to feel rewarding. If breeding 31-IV Pokemon has no value to anyone because competitive play re-randomizes stats anyway, that makes the experience less satisfying for the breeder. Bridging the gap between breeding and competitive play in recent gens has just made things better for everyone, because for the competitive player, the process of getting Pokemon he wants has become more painless, while for the breeder, there's more recognition for the product of his effort because even though it's easier to breed perfect Pokemon, there's more people interested in obtaining them legitimately. | ||
Frolossus
United States4779 Posts
On November 18 2017 20:13 TheYango wrote: I don't think probabilistic hidden-information games are inherently more engaging than deterministic ones. It's just a design choice, what you're describing isn't objectively better. Probabilistic games have their upsides (determining optimal lines of play is generally more complex due to the nature of hidden information) but also their downsides (they're subject to randomness of outcomes, which are generally not viewed favorably in competitive games). You also have to accommodate the fact that Pokemon is a lot of different things to a lot of different people. While the competitive player would like his "bad" Pokemon's stats to not matter, the breeder wants the perfect Pokemon he's bred to have value for his time investment to feel rewarding. If breeding 31-IV Pokemon has no value to anyone because competitive play re-randomizes stats anyway, that makes the experience less satisfying for the breeder. Bridging the gap between breeding and competitive play in recent gens has just made things better for everyone, because for the competitive player, the process of getting Pokemon he wants has become more painless, while for the breeder, there's more recognition for the product of his effort because even though it's easier to breed perfect Pokemon, there's more people interested in obtaining them legitimately. as far as i know they never solved the problem of dudes with memory editors negating all of that interaction between breeders and competitive people. also the duping. there should be some sort of pokemon hash database that people have to connect to and ensure that every pokemon is globally unique and every hash that shows up more than once is blacklisted. then there was that problem of people hacking 6iv dittos to breed with. if the parent was obtained through hacks then the child is not legit and stuff. man this all reminds me of how much of a pain in the ass it was to actually do anything the legal way in these games. splatoon 2 is quickly becoming one of my favorite switch games but i'm finding motion controls really hard to get used to. | ||
chocorush
694 Posts
If you want to play a wild format where lots of random things happen, try playing vgc. Double the attacks means crits happen much more often, and protect rng, status, evasion, etc play a bigger role. Non 100 percent accuracy moves are also more prominent in the meta. I personally find the format frustrating because the amount of randomness increases the skill and studying required to consistently win in tournament by a lot more than I really care for a format I don't find particularly enjoyable. | ||
TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
On November 17 2017 08:13 Terranasaur wrote: I think all the "dumbing down" has been positive. Its nice to be able to appraise and breed Pokemon without all the hassle from previous gens. The gameplay from SM is lightyears ahead of RBY I'm not talking about that. It's the progression and how you get things you need. For example in X/Y surf is just given to you right where you need it and when you get to the shore a lapras is also given. The games are now full of things like this that you needed to search for them in the past. | ||
{CC}StealthBlue
United States41071 Posts
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ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
On November 20 2017 07:05 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Wow the Pro controller is heavy =/ But your wallet isn't anymore | ||
Cricketer12
United States13829 Posts
LOL (they really need to lower the price) | ||
[Phantom]
Mexico2169 Posts
Debating wether to buy a switch or not...I'd love to play it, already played Zelda on WiiU so the only big game would be Odyssey. Currently it's about 320 dollars where I live when usually it's about 550 dollars...It's my country's blackfriday. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of money currently... But if i don't but it now i'll probably never buy it..not sure...I alread have a game though, a friend gifted me the Rabbids one as he though I already had a switch. | ||
ChristianS
United States3126 Posts
On November 21 2017 04:40 [Phantom] wrote: Any multiplayer game that use just the joycons? Debating wether to buy a switch or not...I'd love to play it, already played Zelda on WiiU so the only big game would be Odyssey. Currently it's about 320 dollars where I live when usually it's about 550 dollars...It's my country's blackfriday. Unfortunately I don't have a lot of money currently... But if i don't but it now i'll probably never buy it..not sure...I alread have a game though, a friend gifted me the Rabbids one as he though I already had a switch. You can play Mario Kart with just a Joycon, which means you can do 2P just buying the console and the game. Although I'd much rather use a pro controller or something. Rabbids has some kind of multiplayer thing, but I haven't tried it so I don't know what the controller situation is. Seems like you oughta be able to pass the controller back and forth, considering it's a turn-based game. There's also Snipperclips. Not very long, but I think it's fantastic: + Show Spoiler [Snipperclips trailer] + | ||
sharkie
Austria17988 Posts
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