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I compiled this list of imbalances related to random elements that are present in SC2 (and BW) the other week:
On September 30 2016 23:05 Barrin wrote:Here's some more imbalance considerations related to randomness: - Larva spawn. Unlike the other races who can choose which side their units come out from, larva always spawns and stays at the bottom of hatches. - Terran addons. The 2x2 building is always on the bottom of the right side of the 3x3 buildings. - Field of view. The closest you can get to a 90 degree top down is actually only 56 degrees, giving you a trapezoidal view. Minimap aside, you have a greater range of view of units coming from the north than you do from the south. For air units coming at you from the north you see their flier tag before you see the unit, and from air units coming from the south you see the unit before the flier tag. You also used to be able to "hide" units behind tall cliffs and tall doodads, usually much easier from the north than from the south -- but now you can see the "wireframe" of hidden units. - Randomized Weapon Speed. Yes, you read that right. Go into the data editor and look at the Weapons tab (or a unit's weapon from the Unit tab). Now click on a weapon and scroll down to "Stats: Random Delay Maximum" and "Stats: Random Delay Minimum". Marines for example have a listed attack speed of 8.608 ("(Basic) Stats: Period"), but in practice the speed is actually -0.0625 to +0.1250, or: 8.5455 to 8.733. You can see proof of this by taking like 20+ marines, attacking a large hp unit, and watching the the attack speeds flutter among them instead of being uniform. - Fidgeting and Turning Rate. Be careful with the above experiment though, they should all be facing roughly the same direction before attacking the large hp unit or it's hard to see the randomization happen because they're not in sync to begin with. Some units like to "fidget" when left alone for a while. Look at a unit under the Unit tab and find "(Basic) Movement: Turning Rate" and "(Basic) Movement: Stationary Turning Rate"; it takes a value of 1 for that unit to turn *immediately*, but for pretty much every unit the value is below 1. The point is that sometimes a unit can be caught "off-guard" and miss the first hit opportunity (see note 3 in the spoiler) due to the randomization of fidgeting. + Show Spoiler +Note 1: The "(Basic) Movement: Lateral Acceleration" value is why units (easier to see with air units) don't actually turn on a pinpoint. Note 2: Turrets have their own Turning Rate. These Turning Rates also factor in to why a concave is better than a convex: it takes a less amount of time for a unit in the concave to acquire a new target than it does for units in the convex. Note 3: When a unit's weapon firing range is the same or higher than it's target acquisition range and you have two of these same units crossing the field for either player, the Turning Rates also factor in to see which unit gets the first hit.
I think that might be about it for imbalances, other than maybe colors and contrasting. I personally think randomization and imbalances should be minimized as much as possible in competitive games, and if I it was up to me I would try to eliminate the above things. But then again, the different races themselves represent a much greater degree of asymmetry, and I wouldn't really change that. Shrug. At the end of the day these things (race imbalances aside -- and map imbalances aside, covered recently in the another thread) usually aren't greater than the skill (using the term very broadly) difference of the players enough to affect the result of a match, especially a bo7. For the record, all of these things (except for trapezoidal field of view) were also present in BW.
On October 01 2016 06:52 Uvantak wrote: Nice post Barrin, you forgot the 2x1 Minerals tho!
I would also point out that the more games the players play on different maps, the more likely it is that imbalances even themselves out.
I'll let you be the judge on if Civ6 has more random elements (it most likely does), but if you think that BW/SC2 is devoid of random elements, you are mistaken.
And most important are the races themselves. I dare say the races are much more different than the difference between any two civ countries. Asymmetrical forces are exciting and suspenseful.
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Isn't hearthstone also considered an esport? Afaik there's several cards with a shitton of RNG to them. Poker also has a huge luck/random factor to it.
Even if Civ6 starting locations are not balanced, you can always mod it like the NQ group did with Civ5 and make it fairly more balanced.
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Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
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On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is.
That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
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Really interested in seeing how this pans out as an esport
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On October 25 2016 00:03 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is. That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously
Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
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On October 25 2016 02:20 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 00:03 Salteador Neo wrote:On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is. That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format. I don't think its about the level of randomness, but the management of luck that determines skill.
Poker players have many ways to manage luck, and that oftentimes determines champions.
The question is can a Civ 6 player manage the luck inherent within the game? If luck isn't manageable, than RNG becomes too much of a determining factor and the game doesn't feel satisfying and can't succeed as an esport.
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On October 25 2016 02:20 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 00:03 Salteador Neo wrote:On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is. That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format.
The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like.
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On October 25 2016 03:09 KillerSOS wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 02:20 ragz_gt wrote:On October 25 2016 00:03 Salteador Neo wrote:On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is. That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format. The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like. But is a bad starting position manageable? Your poker example of getting an Ace is a bit extreme.
In Civ 6, is a bad starting position so detrimental that the player would lose all the time?
Luck is part of every game, the question isn't how it affects the game, its about what tools are the players given to manage luck?
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Game duration depends on size of land and opted time, so its a viable e-sports, but just very hard to excite people with.
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On October 25 2016 03:23 Jett.Jack.Alvir wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 03:09 KillerSOS wrote:On October 25 2016 02:20 ragz_gt wrote:On October 25 2016 00:03 Salteador Neo wrote:On October 24 2016 23:57 Incognoto wrote: Randomness doesn't matter in terms of competition. You need to be able to plan out for several different possibilities accordingly, that's what competition is. That depends on the level of randomness, doesn't it? If the starting locations were so imbalanced that they basically decide the outcome of a game, it would be difficult to take that competition seriously Meanwhile poker tournament is still a thing, and fantasy sports study showing to the contrary belief, the amount of luck involved is small compared to amount of skill (you would lose money unless you are top percentile in term of skill), It is more of a question how to take account of the luck factor in the format. The difference is the "luck" is reset hand to hand. If at the start of the session the dealer tells you "you have a 50% less chance of getting an Ace this tourney" nobody would watch/play. That's what bad starting positions feel like. But is a bad starting position manageable? Your poker example of getting an Ace is a bit extreme. In Civ 6, is a bad starting position so detrimental that the player would lose all the time? Luck is part of every game, the question isn't how it affects the game, its about what tools are the players given to manage luck?
Usually it is manageable. It's rare, but some starting positions are simply too bad. The variation is too big, but most starts are playable. Taking about Civ V here, i don't think its the case, but maybe Civ VI is different.
The main problem is that games are long, so its really frustrating to get a bad start. Vs AI most people just leave and start again. A competitive setting might be frustrating too.
However, map settings can be adjusted (or modded) to be more fair.
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Dealing with randomness was totally a thing in WoW arenas too. Get a string of crits? Keep pressing. Too few crits? Back off and wait for important cooldowns before trying again.
Or from a healer's perspective.. they get a string of crits? Use your cooldowns. No? Save em. Etc.
((Not that WoW arenas are a great example.. it's just the highest level of competition I've personally experienced.))
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Russian Federation6 Posts
On October 22 2016 06:21 lestye wrote: As exciting as this is, I wish I knew more about it. I don't know much about the scene, err I didn't even know there was a scene! Does anyone have any literature about the history of competitive Civ?
I haven't looked at the Civ VI thread, but I hope we can have 50 pages of debate on whether removing tile stacking was a good or bad idea like how we debate MBS in other parts of TL. Last Civilization Clan Championship Cup tournament was number 55 i guess, but don't quote me for it. Tournament happened every six weeks, so it lasted about six years. Edit: actually, for a while Civ 3 and Civ 4 tournaments were happening at the same time, so i guess it was a little bit less than six years total. Maybe five?
When i was playing it it was something like 9 to 11 different "disciplines" (map, age and rule settings), and about 8 clans competing. I think it started back in Civ 3. Tournament took about 60 hours to complete, and it wasn't an easy thing, given that people all over the world from the different timezones were competing in it.
http://civ4players.proboards.com/board/8/civ4-world-championship-cup
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look at age of empires 2 how to deal with random maps.
Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots.
also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators.
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Would not be surprised if they end up doing map seeds/made maps with set starting positions and resource balances to make things more "fair." Hopefully doesn't end up as stagnant/identical across maps as SC2/BW though (which had more reasons to be uniform between matches than Civ).
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On October 25 2016 22:22 LaNague wrote: look at age of empires 2 how to deal with random maps.
Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots.
also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators.
You could do that system and only show the game after the first X turns... kinda like how WC3 match replays often start after the initial few seconds have already elapsed. Nothing much happens in the first 3 turns of a Civ game either.
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On October 26 2016 00:53 Yoav wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2016 22:22 LaNague wrote: look at age of empires 2 how to deal with random maps.
Add 1 restart for a player during first X turns per BO3 or something, they just type "re" and its a restart no questions asked. And you add rules that trigger a restart by ref if the affected player agrees to it, in age of empires that would for example be bugged gold spots.
also civ 6 has map seeds, so refs could roll a fair map in advance, reducing the amound of restarts visible to spectators. You could do that system and only show the game after the first X turns... kinda like how WC3 match replays often start after the initial few seconds have already elapsed. Nothing much happens in the first 3 turns of a Civ game either. Goodie huts get popped and barbarian swarms start!
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You can delete your first settler on turn one!
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On October 26 2016 00:58 Khalum wrote: You can delete your first settler on turn one! Interesting. Delete settler, conquer neighbouring civ with single warrior, win anyway!
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On October 26 2016 01:00 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2016 00:58 Khalum wrote: You can delete your first settler on turn one! Interesting. Delete settler, conquer neighbouring civ with single warrior, win anyway!
Anybody remember that AoE 1 scenario where you got one priest and the whole map was divided between these two enemy factions and it was like, good luck! Go convert dudes! Happy wololoing!
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