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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51300 Posts
STUDENT Rhiannon Brooksbank-Jones has had surgery to lengthen her tongue so she can speak Korean like a native.
Rhiannon, 19, who hopes to live in Korea after university, found she had difficulties pronouncing some words.
Her dentist said it was because her tongue was shorter than average, which meant she could not make a distinctive L-sound that occurs in the Korean language.
So determined Rhiannon had surgeons snip part of the skin flap that attaches the tongue to the mouth - and it now reaches a full centimetre further.
She said: "Surgery was the only option. It's not like you can just stretch your tongue.
"Some people might say it's a bit extreme but I'm a perfectionist. My pronunciation was very foreign before but now I can speak with a Korean accent."
Rhiannon, of Beeston, Notts, is awaiting A-level results and hopes to do a Korean Studies degree at Sheffield University.
Mum Fiona said: "When she sets her mind to something she goes for it wholeheartedly."
Source - TheSun
Interesting! I have to love The Sun paper! Truely amazing news story i read this lunch time! She states that having a shorter tongue than average meant she couldnt pronouce "L-Words" very well and made her Korean acsent sound Foreign!
Wonder if Tastosis have this trouble?
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I have short tongue and I can pronounce 'L-words' perfectly
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This is an old scam, but it usually went the other way around. More than a few people in Korea have had tongue reshaping surgery to become "better" speakers of English. The truth of the matter, however, is that this is just surgeons taking advantage of people who know no better.
Her pronunciation is not better, her Korean is not better, and it scares me that any form of medical practitioner would believe that she can't speak Korean because her tongue is too short.
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It scares me that people believe stories from the sun.
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Actually, I work in an ENT Clinic for the military, and we do this quite regularly in clinic. It's just a quick snip and I almost wouldn't qualify it as a surgery, but it does allow better pronunciation for most people.
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Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51300 Posts
On August 12 2011 21:38 aebriol wrote: It scares me that people believe stories from the sun.
Troll I buy it for the Sport, and just love the gossip they put in it too :3
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On August 12 2011 21:45 Flenser166 wrote: Actually, I work in an ENT Clinic for the military, and we do this quite regularly in clinic. It's just a quick snip and I almost wouldn't qualify it as a surgery, but it does allow better pronunciation for most people.
No, it doesn't.
There is absolutely no evidence and no reasoning that it would. Differences in pronunciation between native and non-native speakers of a language exist solely in the brain. It makes no sense that they would be physical considering tongue lengths and shapes vary just as much within a tribe as they do on a worldwide level. Why is it that Korean people seem to be just fine with their tongue length, and this problem only afflicts non-native speakers? I'd even bet you that comparing places of articulation with the Korean /l/ and the English /l/ do not show that much of a difference in tongue extending.
Surgery cannot treat non-native pronunciation in a language; it's a completely different issue. You may ask "Why does the military do it then?" and to that I'll just ask you another question: Why does the military still use the audiolingual method--a methodology of teaching second languages that was proven completely ineffective in the mid 60's--as the primary way of training their soldiers to speak other languages?
The reason why you hear differences in their pronunciation is because you're looking for differences in their pronunciation.
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What an oddly offensive username. And what a strange thread for people to argue in.
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It's an extremely common surgery, if you can even call it that. Supposedly helps with french kissing also ;p.
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I was reading, and I was like O_O. And then I read the source and i was like XD. The Sun........
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lol, the sun strikes again!
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Asians can make L sounds?
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Man I was thinking tongue job meant something else... Gotta get that mind out of the gutter.
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On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds?
Yes. What other fascinating questions do you want me to answer?
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On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards.
edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L.
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On August 12 2011 22:25 SpeaKEaSY wrote: Man I was thinking tongue job meant something else... Gotta get that mind out of the gutter.
You're not alone here. That's the only reason I clicked the link. FALSE ADVERTISING I'D SAY.
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On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L.
South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs.
Not that hard.
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lol, nice to see that the professional linguists here know so much on the matter.
Its a story from the sun, and hardly in-depth reporting. Its actually quite common for people to have their lingual frenulum altered.
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Wrong japanese has no L sounds.
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On August 12 2011 21:47 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:38 aebriol wrote: It scares me that people believe stories from the sun. Troll I buy it for the Sport, and just love the gossip they put in it too :3
You can't say it was a troll, and confirm your sincerity, in the same sentence.
Otherwise you'll be full up on cake
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uhh yeah, tabloid article? whatever people want to read i guess
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Um o_O if this is the right surgery I'm thinking of, a lot of Koreans have it to. I had it myself as a kid. 혀가 짧아서 어렸을 때 수술 하는 사람 많은뎅,,, From what I know though, it's only effective if you have the surgery done at a young age. The doctor told my mom that if I had the surgery too late, my pronunciation would be affected. It might be the same for the girl in the article though, if she hasn't learned Korean for very long..?
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On August 12 2011 22:23 Kevan wrote: Don't ever read The Sun. True, scientists say the sun causes cancer
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On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard.
ROLF. I actually have trouble making the rolling R sound. Would never ever consider surgery though, sounds like a gimmick to increase business :p.
Besides, if you speak a foreign language badly, usually the natives will think its cute
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On August 12 2011 23:28 Raysalis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard. ROLF. I actually have trouble making the rolling R sound. Would never ever consider surgery though, sounds like a gimmick to increase business :p. Besides, if you speak a foreign language badly, usually the natives will think its cute
Let's not get carried away. All that happened was that the doctor clipped the skin holding your tongue down. Nothing major.
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This problem never occurred to me. Sorry to all the short-tongues.
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I thought this was fairly common to have done, as far as snipping the bit of skin underneath the tongue. I've had it done though that was along with a gum graph to prevent my gums from receding further from when my teeth were crooked (fixed now)
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This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area.
It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx".
Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me?
P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth!
For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg
[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should...
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I can't people anyone can quote The Sun as a legitimate source. Didn't they just recently uncover the 12 secret prophecies of Merlin which they use to help predict your horoscope?
Yeah, totally legit on second thought. I retract my statement.
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On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. Yeah Korean's have this. I really want to listen to how she pronounces L sounds before and after..
On August 12 2011 22:57 hdan wrote: Wrong japanese has no L sounds. From what I hear, actually hear myself is that Japanese people pronounce R sounds with L sounds and L sounds with R sounds. Anyone else notice that?
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Can't she stretch her tongue like those monks that attach huge weights to their junk?
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This is a common procedure, docs just clip some skin or whatever under your tongue letting you extend it further. Think Gene Simmons of Kiss. I had it done to mine for um, nsfw reasons.
I was having surgery on my ear done and simply requested them to do that too before going in there.
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On August 12 2011 22:33 Wyrm_uW wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:25 SpeaKEaSY wrote: Man I was thinking tongue job meant something else... Gotta get that mind out of the gutter. You're not alone here. That's the only reason I clicked the link. FALSE ADVERTISING I'D SAY.
I was a victim of this as well
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I am bilingual for Chinese and English and I don't have any problem at all. Is this just a Japanese and Korean thing?
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This sounds utterly stupid. I highly doubt this would help 'pronounciation'. It's not like adopted children speaks with an accent because they have short tongues or anything. Might help if you've got some kind of weird speech impediment though.
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On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard. south asians? philippines language has a million L's in it... nagluluto... Lapu Lapu city... maniLA... exactly what south asians are you talking about here?
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The Sun is synonymous with "The Trolls"
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On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should...
i'm the same... i think i could slowly do it from around age 10. so useful with removing the mucus or whatever lol. guess its not really that uncommon. i'm still trying to figure out what those circular things are at the far left and right of the upper mouth. any idea?
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sensible people should never take the The Sun as a reliable source of information, Sensationalist obscuring facts to promote a particular story they wish to tell in order to sell their papers and advertising space rarely do they have any real news to offer.
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To be able to speak Korean better ... right ... I'd almost believe that's the reason. No get another surgery to get rid of the gag reflex and I'll marry you :D
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On August 13 2011 00:14 jimbob615 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should... i'm the same... i think i could slowly do it from around age 10. so useful with removing the mucus or whatever lol. guess its not really that uncommon. i'm still trying to figure out what those circular things are at the far left and right of the upper mouth. any idea?
You mean in the mouth or in the nasopharynx? Like before you put it up in there or after? If it's before, your tonsils are there by your uvula (the teardrop thing in the back of your mouth). They have a bumpy texture. I had mine removed, but I can still feel remnants of them there.
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On August 12 2011 21:34 Shana wrote: I have short tongue and I can pronounce 'L-words' perfectly
Did it occur to you that her tongue might have been shorter than yours?
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The Sun is the worst newspaper in England, anyone with common sense and an ounce of knowledge about its history would know this.
Sensationalist crap.
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Oh, a story in The Sun, and it does neither involve Hitler nor Aliens, so the chance that everythin of is ture rises to about 1%
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Uh... who the hell has trouble in a language class and goes to their dentist for help? >_>;
Guess it could just come up in convo during an appointment or something.
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On August 13 2011 00:40 aka_star wrote: sensible people should never take the The Sun as a reliable source of information, Sensationalist obscuring facts to promote a particular story they wish to tell in order to sell their papers and advertising space rarely do they have any real news to offer. Sensible people shouldn't blindly trust any media, let alone one such as this. The primary goal of most media is to make money and spread propaganda. Therefore seemingly average things (such as clipping the skin under your tongue to extend it further, which I've had done myself) are exaggerated to get a rise out of people. I'm honestly surprised the Sun didn't just say she did it for sexual reasons to get even more of a rise in this overly politically correct world. That's why I had mine done.
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On August 12 2011 23:54 Sephy90 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. Yeah Korean's have this. I really want to listen to how she pronounces L sounds before and after.. From what I hear, actually hear myself is that Japanese people pronounce R sounds with L sounds and L sounds with R sounds. Anyone else notice that?
They just use a single consonant for L and R sounds. So when they say R we think we hear L and vice versa.
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Wow people really take some things too seriously.
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I bet shes a lot more popular with the ladies now.
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She is getting taken advantage of hardcore. There is no proof that tongue length, size, or any other factors have any effect on the ability to speak certain languages or speak at all. This is just another risk-free surgery that money can be made off of.
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On August 13 2011 00:10 jimbob615 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard. south asians? philippines language has a million L's in it... nagluluto... Lapu Lapu city... maniLA... exactly what south asians are you talking about here?
Agreed. My girlfriend is Filipina, and "I love you" is "mahal kita" in Tagalog.
This seems like a scam.
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maybe she had some small form of
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankyloglossia
not a medical professional so I don't know if its possible to have varying severities that would only manifest it self in certain cases like certain sounds with certain languages
but its possible? dunno
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On August 13 2011 05:02 Halcyondaze wrote: She is getting taken advantage of hardcore. There is no proof that tongue length, size, or any other factors have any effect on the ability to speak certain languages or speak at all. This is just another risk-free surgery that money can be made off of.
Most likely. I'm sure there are some things that can effect it, but if I didn't have any evidence of it then I would be a little suspect. Money beats research in this case.
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On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should...
Unless you're doing the abstinence before marriage thing, I'd assume she has noticed something by now ;p.
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On August 13 2011 00:58 HalloniKanada wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:34 Shana wrote: I have short tongue and I can pronounce 'L-words' perfectly Did it occur to you that her tongue might have been shorter than yours? short tongue leads to inability to pronounce the letter R, you pronounce the letter L instead. Maybe an extremely short tongue leads to inability to pronounce both? But then what is the sound that comes out? So odd. Either way its hardly news worthy, i had this problem when i was a child and couldnt pronounce R, my doctor wanted to snip that shit too, but i just hold out and it got fine when i got older. Too bad tho. I couldve been a lot more popular with the ladies.
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On August 13 2011 05:06 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should... Unless you're doing the abstinence before marriage thing, I'd assume she has noticed something by now ;p. why do you think she said yes!
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My god, the girl getting an operation is bad enough, but running this story is almost equivalent to the Sun running an article on werewolves being behind kidnappings or something
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On August 13 2011 05:24 caradoc wrote: My god, the girl getting an operation is bad enough, but running this story is almost equivalent to the Sun running an article on werewolves being behind kidnappings or something That was last weeks story.
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Tongue Job sounds to much like Blow Job but for women! This is what made me open this thread.
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Sounds like it was placebo that helped her pronounce better...
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard. Oh learry? I arways have tloubre with my Sssssss.
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This doesn't seem so far-fetched. I can't relate with the reasoning, but the surgery seemed very safe, basic, and pretty unnoticable otherwise. No big deal, imo.
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On August 12 2011 21:47 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:38 aebriol wrote: It scares me that people believe stories from the sun. Troll I buy it for the Sport, and just love the gossip they put in it too :3
More like you bought it for page 3.
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lol, i guess if your dedicated you can do anything
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I don't know if this is news to that many people, but it is common. My uncle underwent this surgery because he could not pronounce the "er" sound in English or Chinese. Many Korean celebrities do this as well to pronounce English better. This does not make it miraculously possible to speak a language fluently, but does overcome some minor barriers.
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On August 13 2011 05:38 Mutality wrote: lol, i guess if your dedicated you can do anything Including a lot of dumb things apparently.
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On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard.
While I'm no specialist I have held jobs where I was in daily contact with asians (what I would consider north asians china/japan/koreas) The only truth I could deduce is that northern asians have problems with R's and are in denial about problems with L's. They were very much in the store to buy a raptop not a laptop. It was predominantly korean/japanese/chinese group
/I know I know CSB
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On August 12 2011 21:32 Pandemona wrote:Show nested quote +STUDENT Rhiannon Brooksbank-Jones has had surgery to lengthen her tongue so she can speak Korean like a native.
Rhiannon, 19, who hopes to live in Korea after university, found she had difficulties pronouncing some words.
Her dentist said it was because her tongue was shorter than average, which meant she could not make a distinctive L-sound that occurs in the Korean language.
So determined Rhiannon had surgeons snip part of the skin flap that attaches the tongue to the mouth - and it now reaches a full centimetre further.
She said: "Surgery was the only option. It's not like you can just stretch your tongue.
"Some people might say it's a bit extreme but I'm a perfectionist. My pronunciation was very foreign before but now I can speak with a Korean accent."
Rhiannon, of Beeston, Notts, is awaiting A-level results and hopes to do a Korean Studies degree at Sheffield University.
Mum Fiona said: "When she sets her mind to something she goes for it wholeheartedly." Source - TheSunInteresting! I have to love The Sun paper! Truely amazing news story i read this lunch time! She states that having a shorter tongue than average meant she couldnt pronouce "L-Words" very well and made her Korean acsent sound Foreign! Wonder if Tastosis have this trouble?
The Sun is probably the worst newspaper in Europe. They never research before they write an article and anyone who believes it is just as bad.
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ㄹ really isn't that hard to pronounce, you just need to practice it and even if you speak without a native korean accent, if your korean is good as a foreigner, no one is even going to give a shit, they will be surprised you attained fluency let alone an accent. This most likely had minimal improvement if the story is even real.
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I demand a recorded file for proof that this tongue job helps your Korean accent. I have a Korean friend who has a REALLY short tongue and he can down right speak fluently with a perfect accent.
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Two years of linguistics and I've never heard of such a problem. I've heard a black impressionist who can do flawless French, American, and Russian accents. I've met Korean students who spoke with perfect English accents, no residual Korean accent at all. I've heard of a certain California governor who meets with an accent coach every couple of weeks. But I've never heard of a tongue being too short to make certain sounds.
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I actually had this type of thing done when I was 4 or 5 years old still living in Russia, as I was having trouble rolling my Rs. Even being a native speaker, I had difficulty with this because of said skin flap..
It's a pretty simple operation. For me it wasnt that my tongue was too short, as much as it was that skin flap being too big. Was too young to remember any more details about it.
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On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard.
Yeah Japanese have real trouble with Rs: らりれろる
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5003 Posts
Korean parents cut off this portion of their tongue on their kids through surgery cause they think that will help the tongue become more flexible so their english pronunciation will be more "natural"
ridiculous nonsense
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Both of my brothers had this surgery done (if you would even call it a surgery). They could barely stick their tongue out of their mouth before it lol
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On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should...
Wait... wtf, you cut that flap yourself???
Why hasn't anyone else commented on this????
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On August 13 2011 05:39 epikAnglory wrote: I don't know if this is news to that many people, but it is common. My uncle underwent this surgery because he could not pronounce the "er" sound in English or Chinese. Many Korean celebrities do this as well to pronounce English better. This does not make it miraculously possible to speak a language fluently, but does overcome some minor barriers.
I'm actually a language specialist.
This is absolute complete bunk. There is absolutely no way this type of surgery will help with anything. (unless you're the surgeon, in which case it will help your bank account)
1) There are no "racial" differences in tongue shape/size. 1.5) Even if there were, tongue shape/size does not affect ability to pronounce things in any way that has ever actually been shown to make a difference--- evidenced by second generation immigrants growing up in a different linguistic environment than their parents, having perfect pronounciation (of both their parents language, and the language of whatever country they happen to live in, whether that be Korea or the US or Swaziland or Mongolia).
2) Phonemes (little units of sound) are learned very early on by children, who can acquire them quickly and accurately due to higher neuroplasticity (or active language acquisition devices, if you believe more outdated theories) in the brain. Many adults have trouble with second languages often because they think in terms of their first language, and preserve first language 'categories' of sounds. This can be mitigated by some people who are able to listen to actual sounds rather than their first language categorical perception of sounds and can consequently shape their pronunciation to native-like proficiency even as adults. 2.5) ability to pronounce is a neurological thing.
3) The pairing of notions of race with those of language is a national consciousness thing. It's problematic, and many similar ideas were prevalent during the worst periods of fascism in the first half of the 20th century. (e.g. Nazi master race idea) The idea that races have languages (or cultures, or blood types which associate with personalities etc) is similar to ideas of romantic nationalism, and is often a tool in creating a national identity, problematic as it is (i.e. this is our race, this is our nation. Our race/nation has this language, and this culture. outsiders cannot have access to it because they are not of our race etc etc etc).
4) I can't believe people still actually believe this stuff.
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So it won't magically make it possible to pronounce new sounds, but are you sure it can't make it easier? You have to learn to recognize new phonemes, but you also have to learn how to make the sounds with your mouth. It seems reasonable to me that learning to make sounds could be easier if the tongue has a little more freedom of motion. I mean, I've no idea whether it DOES, but we can't really rule it out can we?
And is it possible that as a person ages, the shape of the tongue adjusts a little based on what phonemes it's been habitually pronouncing for years? It may become harder to stretch into unfamiliar positions?
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On August 12 2011 22:46 Jombozeus wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 22:31 qrs wrote:On August 12 2011 22:25 synapse wrote: Asians can make L sounds? Of course--it's R's they have trouble with. You're getting the stereotype backwards. edit: Although from what I've heard, it's more that many Asian languages have a consonant that's sort of between a western R and L. South Asians have trouble with Ls and Korean/Japanese have trouble with Rs. Not that hard. Not in vietnam. Vietnamese is based on Alphabet letters (created by a French bishop). The only real trouble is /th/ as in "think"
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On August 13 2011 07:28 Thunder_Sturm wrote: So it won't magically make it possible to pronounce new sounds, but are you sure it can't make it easier? You have to learn to recognize new phonemes, but you also have to learn how to make the sounds with your mouth. It seems reasonable to me that learning to make sounds could be easier if the tongue has a little more freedom of motion. I mean, I've no idea whether it DOES, but we can't really rule it out can we?
And is it possible that as a person ages, the shape of the tongue adjusts a little based on what phonemes it's been habitually pronouncing for years? It may become harder to stretch into unfamiliar positions?
Its all neurological.
Its like when you change your hotkeys, your 'muscle memory' (i.e. the neural pathways you developed in getting accustomed to your old setup) will cause you to make mistakes.
Of course people will try to argue that its not bunk, and that theres a reason to have surgery because that's what people do.
I'm just saying its bunk, there is absolutely no evidence for it, and quite a bit of evidence that suggests that its bunk. But I can't change people's decision to believe it isn't.
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i want a student girl to give me a tongue job
User was warned for this post
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I'm trying for the life of me to understand why someone would do this. there's this little thing called practice which makes things easier.
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Can a Korean with a short tongue can speak Korean like a native? Makes me wonder..
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I have no idea why in the world you'd need a long tongue to pronounce the Korean L sound. O.o I'm not a linguist, but I do speak both English and Korean.
ㄹ can have two sounds, actually. The 'clean' L-sound sounds similar to an English L (e.g: the L's in Hallyu) -- subtle differences in tongue location, but overall, just an L (when I pronounce it, I notice that my tongue is more bowed when I do the English L and stiffer for the Korean one, but overall it's similar enough). When followed by a vowel, ㄹ takes on the sound of that consonant that is somewhere between L and R to English ears, and it does not exist in English. It's made by touching your tongue to the roof of your mouth close to your teeth and flapping it down. The sound is difficult for a lot of native English speaker to master not because its difficult in terms of tongue positioning, but because they're simply not familiar with it if they're from a monolingual background.
However, difficulty with this sound because of tongue length would only seem to be an issue if your tongue was so short it couldn't reach up until just behind your teeth, but I've never heard of such a thing. Besides, there are sounds in English (such as the 'th' sound) that require you to extend your tongue to the front of the mouth as well, so I really fail to see how this girl's tongue was long enough to pronounce all the different sounds in English but not a simple ㄹ. O.o
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Sawajiri just sniped my main points. There's nothing about the ㄹ sound that requires a longer tongue than the 'th' or 'v' or 's' sounds. Even the english 'L" sound should require more length, since you place your tongue higher up in your mouth and roll it down behind the teeth.
Normally, my experience with Korean/English is that English overall requires more versatile mouth movement. Assuming for a second that this story isn't total bs and this girl really couldn't pronouce ㄹ due to her tongue then there's no way she's speaking english without a lisp
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She doesn't want the longer tongue for Korean. She wants it for... other things.
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On August 13 2011 08:00 zestzorb wrote: Can a Korean with a short tongue can speak Korean like a native? Makes me wonder..
Win.
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So what if some korean's tongue is shorter than average? Would that mean he/she wouldn't be able to speak their native language properly? This surgery sounds like bull to me.
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Hmmm... I know i'll prolly get temp banned for this.. But this sounds like there's an alternative motive for this, as such a drastic action requires a much more logical explanation than simply a few syllables in a tongue that only a small part of the world speaks.
Perhaps, she is a carpet muncher... in disguise???
(Please be good to me TL, I was just joking)
God dammit I was beaten to it like 20 times.
User was temp banned for this post.
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On August 13 2011 12:09 sCfO20 wrote: Hmmm... I know i'll prolly get temp banned for this.. But this sounds like there's an alternative motive for this, as such a drastic action requires a much more logical explanation than simply a few syllables in a tongue that only a small part of the world speaks.
Perhaps, she is a carpet muncher... in disguise???
(Please be good to me TL, I was just joking)
God dammit I was beaten to it like 20 times. Don't underestimate the Koreaboo's.
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I said this all on the first page in my first post, but for anybody who wants to speak a second language better: good pronunciation is about good phonemic awareness. According to research, this can be improved in two main ways:
1.) By learning to play an instrument (according to multiple studies, the violin or piano work best) in youth.
The general idea here is that being able to recognize subtle differences between sounds (as is required of playing the violin or piano) can improve your ability to perceive different phonemes, and therefore your ability to produce them.
2.) By engaging in extensive practice in sound perception.
Another interesting line of studies have indicated that extensive practice in perceiving differing phonemes (through, for instance, computer software using minimal pairs) can also improve the learner's production of those phonemes. Again, this is about awareness of those phonemes and how they sound.
tl;dr: The only way that you can improve your production of phonemes is by improving your ability to perceive them; tongue surgery, repetition exercises, and the like do nothing. It is a scam.
Doctors who perform this procedure should be charged with malpractice.
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Russian Federation748 Posts
This reminds me of a witty quote from Voltaire (not the one who posts in this thread). During his old age, he was asked by someone if he still spoke English : " No, because to speak English, you need to put your tongue between your teeth ; and I no longer have teeth."
2.5) ability to pronounce is a neurological thing.
I'm not entirely sure about that. In particular, I was said by a language physician ( I'm not sure how you would call it in English) my tongue was in a low position compared to the average, and that caused difficulty in articulating well. It does not prevent anyone from saying any phoneme, of course, it just commends a bit exercising to be able to speak very clearly.
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On August 13 2011 06:21 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should... Wait... wtf, you cut that flap yourself??? Why hasn't anyone else commented on this????
its kinda like how I can do that trick where you swallow some noodles and then they are chillin in the back somewhere and you can just cough em back up
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On August 13 2011 12:09 sCfO20 wrote: Hmmm... I know i'll prolly get temp banned for this.. But this sounds like there's an alternative motive for this, as such a drastic action requires a much more logical explanation than simply a few syllables in a tongue that only a small part of the world speaks.
Perhaps, she is a carpet muncher... in disguise???
(Please be good to me TL, I was just joking)
God dammit I was beaten to it like 20 times.
Lol I always think that saying "I'll get temp banned for this." or "I'll probably get banned for making this thread" will always or nearly make you get banned. Do not ever say this ever in your posts because saying it wont lower your chances of being banned.
Anyway back to the topic, good point. Maybe she was lying but then again I don't really see why this is that much of a deal.
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On August 12 2011 23:12 yoonyoon wrote: Um o_O if this is the right surgery I'm thinking of, a lot of Koreans have it to. I had it myself as a kid. 혀가 짧아서 어렸을 때 수술 하는 사람 많은뎅,,, From what I know though, it's only effective if you have the surgery done at a young age. The doctor told my mom that if I had the surgery too late, my pronunciation would be affected. It might be the same for the girl in the article though, if she hasn't learned Korean for very long..? Ok, so why is everyone flaming this and screaming "Troll"?
The fact that this even made the news is pretty weird to me, though I do have a friend with an extremely short tongue and she has a distinctive accent on even english words with Ls that her speech therapist told her family was a result of her short tongue. She's still completely understandable, though I could see it be a bigger problem with other languages.
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Uh, is this even thread worthy? Like this is a common surgery if its the one I'm thinking of.
I actually had it done like two months ago, not because of pronunciation issues, but rather because I wanted to be able to roll my tongue and my dentist said it would help >_>
Still can't do it though. Bleh.
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You guys should check out the link and see the photo there, and then read this comment by chriswillowe:
"She oughta have spent the money on doing summat about that big lower lip, looks horrible, poor kid."
Can't stop laughing about it :p
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It's not that big of a surgery anyways, don't daunt over it.
And the thing is (as a Korean), the L-R consonant ㄹ doesn't really need a bigger tongue as far as I'm concerned. Just tested it, I have like a centimeter of tongue left that's not needed to pronounce it o.o
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I thought tongue job was some random play i didn't know about. Guess i was wrong >.>
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i have a short tongue and im korean and i can make the L-sound very well :o wonder what it is with her tongue, really
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contrary to most people writing in the thread, i believe that it sure can help her pronounciation in korean. However, i also believe that it would be possible for that girl to speak like a native korean even without surgery if she would have really put her mind into it and cared for it when doing the basic learning. Since once you have trained a wrong habit (in this case wrong pronounciation) for a long time, you will always do it wrong and it is so hard to get off of it. So if she uses motions/positions of her tongue that would sound right if her tongue was longer, this sure could have helped her. But if she would have cared and learned the right tongue movement/positions when she learned korean, i believe she could have been able to speak perfect korean without surgery.
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... Can i get this done :o
Who do i see
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On August 12 2011 21:36 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote: This is an old scam, but it usually went the other way around. More than a few people in Korea have had tongue reshaping surgery to become "better" speakers of English. The truth of the matter, however, is that this is just surgeons taking advantage of people who know no better.
Her pronunciation is not better, her Korean is not better, and it scares me that any form of medical practitioner would believe that she can't speak Korean because her tongue is too short. Yeah this is just silly, in Finland there definitely are "distinct L-sounds" and the lenght of the tongue has nothing to do with anything, you just have to practice. My tongue reaches like 5cm further than is necessary to say "L", if you can say "S" your tongue is fine.
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I had this done to me as a kid (In Russia). Both the bottom flap, and the top one (The one that attaches lips to the teeth), if I recall correctly.
No anaesthetic, hurt like hell, waste of time.
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My parents are absolutely terrible with L's in English. "Bell" sounds like "Berruh" to most non-Koreans who hear them speak ^_^
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The above poster is correct. It barely qualifies as oral surgery though, considering how simple the procedure is. I doubt it helped anyone with letter pronunciation, but I also don't see any real harm in it (except in DIY cases).
There are people who get it done just for the NSFW appeal.
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I don't like the Sun that much.Specially since its brought by the same propaganda ministers that brought you newsweek and fox news.
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a british friend advised me to not read the sun...
at any rate, i dont know how effective this surgery will be. it does show her dedication, though.
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I think its really strange actually once you think about it. She is obviously a well brought up child therefore its a likely chance her parents were successful parents.
But the mother only says, "Well we'll let her do the crap she wants" I found this pretty unrealistic. In my opinion I think most mothers would be like WTF IS WRONG WITH MY DAUGHTER I DIDNT RAISE HER TO FKING CUT HER TONGUE WTF.
Lol but this is all theory and now I feel stupid.
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I have no knowledge on this topic, but this seems absurd.
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i think she would have been more popular with an accent. krns love white ppl (and their accent)
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On August 13 2011 06:21 Emporio wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should... Wait... wtf, you cut that flap yourself??? Why hasn't anyone else commented on this????
I cut it myself, but just with the muscles in my mouth. The skin just sort of wore away as I streched my tongue more.
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On August 13 2011 05:06 Derez wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should... Unless you're doing the abstinence before marriage thing, I'd assume she has noticed something by now ;p.
I don't give her oral or anything. I'm not a big fan of it, but the lack of tissue there is not easily noticable.
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Well, I hope it works for her....
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Sadly I was expecting something completely different after reading the title of this thread
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so this family was not only nieve enough to be scammed into getting an unnecessary and ineffective surgery on their daughter's tongue, but the family was also nieve enough to think the surgery was so cool and dandy they should have an article written about it. Wow
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lol daddy must have alot of money if hes willing to from for this mind numingly stupid surgery
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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE ARE CRAZY
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On August 17 2011 08:17 Tewks44 wrote: so this family was not only nieve enough to be scammed into getting an unnecessary and ineffective surgery on their daughter's tongue, but the family was also nieve enough to think the surgery was so cool and dandy they should have an article written about it. Wow
The real question is, is this really something surprising?
I mean, I would classify myself as someone who lives under a rock and I've heard/seen some retarded/fucked-up/mind-blowing shit ppl are capable of.
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ridiculous.... curious to see how they do it though.
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white girl problems .... wish my life so simple
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On August 13 2011 00:56 aurum510 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 13 2011 00:14 jimbob615 wrote:On August 12 2011 23:43 aurum510 wrote:This is going to sound really weird/disgusting, but as a child I basically did this procedure to myself over time. I have no gag reflex, so I am able to basically put my tongue up the back of my throat into the back of the nose area. It's called hypermobile tongue. And the area of the back of the throat that leads to the nose is the nasopharynx. You can look it up on google "hypermobile tongue nasopharynx". Needless to say, before I did this to myself (it seemed natural, it hurt every day, but after a few weeks the skin was gone and healed) I was easily able to touch my tongue to the tip of my nose (on the outside). I guess this inspired me? P.S. I'm not weird or mutated or anything in any other way, it just happened! It's useful to remove mucus when you have issues with it, especially in the morning. Yeah. That sounds gross, but I have very fresh breath, as I take care of my mouth! For the visually inclined, here's a picture from wikipedia of the nasopharynx. That's why I can put my tongue. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4a/Illu_pharynx.jpg[Edit]: I don't think I've told my fiancee I can do this yet... Maybe I should... i'm the same... i think i could slowly do it from around age 10. so useful with removing the mucus or whatever lol. guess its not really that uncommon. i'm still trying to figure out what those circular things are at the far left and right of the upper mouth. any idea? You mean in the mouth or in the nasopharynx? Like before you put it up in there or after? If it's before, your tonsils are there by your uvula (the teardrop thing in the back of your mouth). They have a bumpy texture. I had mine removed, but I can still feel remnants of them there.
ah ok, hmm hard to explain... kinda at the barrier between the mouth and the nasopharinx i think... at the far right and left of the mouth. there's like two things on each side which feel kinda spherical.
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Oh dear. Everyone knows one shouldn't read Murdoch's little papers.
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On August 12 2011 21:51 RosaParksStoleMySeat wrote:Show nested quote +On August 12 2011 21:45 Flenser166 wrote: Actually, I work in an ENT Clinic for the military, and we do this quite regularly in clinic. It's just a quick snip and I almost wouldn't qualify it as a surgery, but it does allow better pronunciation for most people. No, it doesn't. There is absolutely no evidence and no reasoning that it would. Differences in pronunciation between native and non-native speakers of a language exist solely in the brain. It makes no sense that they would be physical considering tongue lengths and shapes vary just as much within a tribe as they do on a worldwide level. Why is it that Korean people seem to be just fine with their tongue length, and this problem only afflicts non-native speakers? I'd even bet you that comparing places of articulation with the Korean /l/ and the English /l/ do not show that much of a difference in tongue extending. Surgery cannot treat non-native pronunciation in a language; it's a completely different issue. You may ask "Why does the military do it then?" and to that I'll just ask you another question: Why does the military still use the audiolingual method--a methodology of teaching second languages that was proven completely ineffective in the mid 60's--as the primary way of training their soldiers to speak other languages? The reason why you hear differences in their pronunciation is because you're looking for differences in their pronunciation.
I feel like maybe there are two different points here.
The girls tongue was shorter than average, not saying shorter than a koreans, but shorter than average. We can't make the assumption it was to be made longer like a koreans, but maybe just longer like an average person.
And there is evidence to show tha tongue length does affect pronounciation, ask anyone with a lisp.
I don't think you're wrong, and I'm sure the scam you are on about may well exist, but this could be legitimate.
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