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Do not derail the thread with discussions about other topics like global warming. |
On March 14 2012 05:07 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 04:52 Golgotha wrote:On March 14 2012 04:49 TerlocSG wrote: I think the average education level of the population of a country reflects on how good of a country it would be to live in. It's not the only factor, but it's a pretty big one. Cuba has a very high literacy rate (rank 2), so does Estonia (rank 3)...but I don't think they are better to live than the U.S. (who is ranked 120 something). Education and literacy are quite different. Literacy is the most basic foundation for an education, it doesn't equal an education.
fair enough. then just look at the international standardized tests countries are gauged upon. South Korea and Japan have very high marks in this test, but the U.S. falls horribly short. Still, I would argue that as a South Korean, I can say that living in the U.S. is far easier and full of more opportunities.
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On March 14 2012 05:08 Livelovedie wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:03 Golgotha wrote:On March 14 2012 04:58 Livelovedie wrote: I think a lot of people don't understand how American Education works... yes there are 50k top private universities here, but the best of those universities are "need-based" and calculate how much you pay based on your EFC(estimated family contribution) The majority of the students aren't paying near the 50k sticker price and those top colleges can wind up being cheaper than state universities depending on how much your parents make. On top of that their are many universities such as the University of Alabama to name one that will allow you to attend for free based on a certain PSAT score. Also for poor families the government offers the pell grant which is pretty much free money that you do not have to pay back and will allow an impoverished student to attend a state university for free. I am fine with how the system works for Americans. no that is too simple lol. your analysis of the system is way to broad and general. Yes, many kids who come from low income families only have to pay very little! Even a full ride if they are smart and poor! However! the system lives off the large middle class of America where kids do not qualify for government aid and must either get a scholarship by getting top marks or take out loans. You might be lucky with paying little due your parent's income status or because you got good grades, but what about the folks who do not meet those requirements? They get shafted and pay a ridiculous 50k a year. If you are truly middle class your EFC is not going to be 50k a year... for a top college to require you to be full pay your family would make north of 200k. That is not middle class. No you aren't getting a free ride as a middle class student, but you will get some money from one of those need-based private schools (I know, because I have that puts it in line with state schools). If your parents aren't willing to help you out you can graduate with minimal debt by going to a 2 year community college and transferring into a 4 year state school afterwards. Assuming you make good grades in community college you can get a scholarship (my mom did this).
Look, 50k is in the high range but even 25k a year is way too much for most people. and dont be naive and think that simply because you have to pay full, you are not middle class. many middle class people have to pay full and the amount you pay is not always related to how much you make. IF ONLY it worked that way, if only it was simply: you make X so you pay X. it aint so simple. The thing is...ALL unis have different price points and they might give you 20k for education...but the total cost is 50k!
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In Denmark we get paid for our education, as if it was our job.
I get ~5400 kr a month, which is around 950 dollars I believe. It's enough for my apartment, groceries and such.
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On March 14 2012 05:33 Golgotha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 05:08 Livelovedie wrote:On March 14 2012 05:03 Golgotha wrote:On March 14 2012 04:58 Livelovedie wrote: I think a lot of people don't understand how American Education works... yes there are 50k top private universities here, but the best of those universities are "need-based" and calculate how much you pay based on your EFC(estimated family contribution) The majority of the students aren't paying near the 50k sticker price and those top colleges can wind up being cheaper than state universities depending on how much your parents make. On top of that their are many universities such as the University of Alabama to name one that will allow you to attend for free based on a certain PSAT score. Also for poor families the government offers the pell grant which is pretty much free money that you do not have to pay back and will allow an impoverished student to attend a state university for free. I am fine with how the system works for Americans. no that is too simple lol. your analysis of the system is way to broad and general. Yes, many kids who come from low income families only have to pay very little! Even a full ride if they are smart and poor! However! the system lives off the large middle class of America where kids do not qualify for government aid and must either get a scholarship by getting top marks or take out loans. You might be lucky with paying little due your parent's income status or because you got good grades, but what about the folks who do not meet those requirements? They get shafted and pay a ridiculous 50k a year. If you are truly middle class your EFC is not going to be 50k a year... for a top college to require you to be full pay your family would make north of 200k. That is not middle class. No you aren't getting a free ride as a middle class student, but you will get some money from one of those need-based private schools (I know, because I have that puts it in line with state schools). If your parents aren't willing to help you out you can graduate with minimal debt by going to a 2 year community college and transferring into a 4 year state school afterwards. Assuming you make good grades in community college you can get a scholarship (my mom did this). Look, 50k is in the high range but even 25k a year is way too much for most people. and dont be naive and think that simply because you have to pay full, you are not middle class. many middle class people have to pay full and the amount you pay is not always related to how much you make. IF ONLY it worked that way, if only it was simply: you make X so you pay X. it aint so simple. The thing is...ALL unis have different price points and they might give you 20k for education...but the total cost is 50k! If 25k is too much for your family then the student needs to reevalute their educational plans and decide "hey I can't afford this, I need to go to community college" It is up to the student to find out how much that university gives on average and what other people in their income bracket have gotten and then decide if they cannot pay for that, maybe apply anyway and if the financial aid isn't enough then NOT ATTEND. No one is going to hold your hand throughout the process, but you can still get a relatively debt free education if you work for it.
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If university wasn't free, then it would be an capital-investment. Thereby forcing those finished an education to receive a much higher relative income to compensate for the high cost of their education. But as with all investments those without a starting capital are left without a choice.
The words of freedom and equality are not of trivial interpretation. For me people wouldn't really be equal if the wealth of their parents should decide whether they would be able to take an education or not.
I'm pretty sure every Dane is very proud of the idea of our university education system. And I would never use my liberalism/capitalism points of view, when dealing with infra-structure, environment or education.
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On March 13 2012 15:56 TanTzoR wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 15:50 OsoVega wrote: Education does not spontaneously occur in nature. It is impossible for it to be free. Someone is always going to have to pay. The government? In order to ensure meritocracy. It's really bad if a poor students with better marks than a richer student can't access higher education while the richer student can. Really really bad.
So it should be illegal to pay for education? What if someone is a REALLY good teacher and they can make more money teaching children of rich parents than working for a government system? Then they are earning their money through merit and just plain capitalism.
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On March 14 2012 04:47 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 04:45 Mrvoodoochild1 wrote: My university tuition is 50k a year, I only say education should be free because I will be in debt for the rest of my life. Why are you going to a 50k/year university? Is the "prestige" really worth it compared to going to a state uni and getting the same degree? It's not the same degree. Where you went to school matters as much as what your degree is in. Most businesses recruit based on your campus. Some state schools are good but private unis are worth the extra penny because they usually get you a better job. At least this is my experience and what my friends tell me. Many of the elite accounting firms take me and my fellow accounting students out to dinner to try to get us to sign with them. This simply does not happen at state unis according to my friends that are accounting majors as well.
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On March 14 2012 04:54 GoTuNk! wrote: Should food be free? This thread is about education, no need to go off on a tangent.
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On March 14 2012 06:02 Luepert wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 15:56 TanTzoR wrote:On March 13 2012 15:50 OsoVega wrote: Education does not spontaneously occur in nature. It is impossible for it to be free. Someone is always going to have to pay. The government? In order to ensure meritocracy. It's really bad if a poor students with better marks than a richer student can't access higher education while the richer student can. Really really bad. So it should be illegal to pay for education? What if someone is a REALLY good teacher and they can make more money teaching children of rich parents than working for a government system? Then they are earning their money through merit and just plain capitalism. It should not be illegal to pay for education. The two systems can (and do, in many countries) coexist, and there's nothing wrong with that.
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hmm education should be free. who's gonna pay it? the whole society, because everybody gains to a more instructed society. denmark is a remarkable example
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You realize that education is free right? If your smart and have proved you deserve it; they are called scholarships. Why would I want to pay a dropout to waste my money in college for a few years who will never give back to society?
No it shouldn't be free for everyone, only for those who have worked hard enough to earn it....
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I think your fees are cheap enough you shouldn't really be the one bringing this up, lol. I don't know if secondary education should necessarily be free, but it should be heavily subsidized. If it cost as much as it does in the US I wouldn't have gone at all, but it doesn't have to be free. 10-15k in debt is actually fairly minimal from 4 years, and it isn't hard to come out without debt.
On March 14 2012 05:43 Livelovedie wrote: If 25k is too much for your family then the student needs to reevalute their educational plans and decide "hey I can't afford this, I need to go to community college" It is up to the student to find out how much that university gives on average and what other people in their income bracket have gotten and then decide if they cannot pay for that, maybe apply anyway and if the financial aid isn't enough then NOT ATTEND. No one is going to hold your hand throughout the process, but you can still get a relatively debt free education if you work for it.
This is what I mean. Having super-high costs will turn intelligent people off of education, lowing the value of your workforce. What kind of a situation you're born into shouldn't affect whether you can get further education without going heavily into debt. Rationalizing that is silly, and only really done by people like those in the US who're forced to pay the price. And 25k is in fact ridiculous, you'd end up so far in debt without your family paying for the entire thing you'd be paying it off 5-10 years down the line still. Or you'd have to have a job all through university, taking up time and lowering your marks, which are actually the reason you're there in the first place.
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On March 13 2012 16:01 SafeAsCheese wrote: Education is free in the US.
Higher education is not and should not be free. It should not be required for every job though.
Unfortunately, it pretty much is. The work market is becoming more competitive by the minute, as people with higher degrees are logically chosen over people with less education. So it makes sense that the students force themselves to study more and more time and, as such, pay more and more fees in order to have a decent chance to have a decent job and good life quality.
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On March 14 2012 05:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 04:08 Freddybear wrote:On March 14 2012 03:57 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 14 2012 03:50 Freddybear wrote: Student loans are readily available. Oh, but some students want to take bullshit courses like "gender studies" instead of something that will actually be worth something. And then they complain when they're stuck with the loan payments for their expensive vacation. First off, don't even start the argument about what constitutes a legitimate course of study. Just because you don't see the immediate application of something like "gender studies" doesn't mean that it isn't something useful to study. Second, you sound woefully ignorant of the situation concerning student loans. It's a terrible system that accrues entirely too much interest and it is impossible to escape them even through bankruptcy/death. Furthermore, the ability to take out loans still depends on your parents' financial situation. I have a very simple way of determining whether a course of study is worthwhile. How much money will an employer pay you after you graduate with that degree? By that metric, "gender studies" is worth about as much as a course in burger flipping at McDonalds. Some of the most fundamental and necessary jobs that make a society run are some of the worst paid. Your measurement is narrow-minded, arrogant, and straight up stupid. Without the study of music, culture, history, philosophy, etc. etc. etc. Where would the world be? Just because something doesn't give an immediate tangible monetary benefit doesn't mean it isn't useful. Your mindset is absolutely sickening. Show nested quote +yes those skills are useful...but does it make sense to pay 3 grand a quarter for such BASIC things? All those skills you listed can be learned outside of philosophy...they are useful, sure...but the fact that your core education and knowledge will not see the light of day in your field of work (unless you become a phil. prof.) is saddening and pitiful. The difference is that you can't just learn those skills anywhere else. Studying philosophy (or any number of other majors) at a respected institution will give someone significantly better skills in these areas that just picking them up as you go.
I agree about the study of music, culture, history, etc. being useful, but we're talking about government subsidies here. While the study of those particular fields are enlightening, interesting, and make for a more well-rounded individual, it is a fact that it is harder to achieve gainful employment in the fields of art, history, and philosophy than the fields of science, engineering, and technology with the applicable 4-year degree.
People can study whatever the hell they want. But when it comes time for the government to inject a little money into helping the populace become educated and enter the workforce, it's the practical degrees with tangible benefits that will get all the attention.
That's just how shit works. I can't tell you how many of my friends got "Communications" degrees and then were flabbergasted that they couldn't find related work and ended up secretaries. It's just as much a problem with the individual as it is with the system that most people end up in a line of work that had nothing to do with their degree. People will pick the most arbitrary shit because it sounds cool, without even thinking for a second if it is practical or will be able to sustain them. And that's fine if they know what they're getting into.
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I think free education is a beautiful idea. However, should my taxes really go towards your poetry degree? Are all educations really worth as much?
Everything up until university definitely should be free, but I'm still not entirely convinced about anything after that.
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On March 14 2012 06:36 Starshaped wrote: I think free education is a beautiful idea. However, should my taxes really go towards your poetry degree? Are all educations really worth as much?
Everything up until university definitely should be free, but I'm still not entirely convinced about anything after that. How much would a university save by dropping poetry classes? Hardly enough to warrant discrimination among academic subjects.
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No, education should not be free.
Every student should have to pay for his or her education. Then, when they've earned their degree, they can turn around and collect a higher level of income for their hard work. Just like ANY OTHER INVESTMENT.
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On March 14 2012 06:42 Tobberoth wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 06:36 Starshaped wrote: I think free education is a beautiful idea. However, should my taxes really go towards your poetry degree? Are all educations really worth as much?
Everything up until university definitely should be free, but I'm still not entirely convinced about anything after that. How much would a university save by dropping poetry classes? Hardly enough to warrant discrimination among academic subjects.
That's kind of the point though.
Let the free market and universities decide what to offer.
Government handles mandatory education, after that your field of study is your choice and should be at a minimum partially your cost.
The moment the government is paying for it all, 1) the value of it drops immensely, and 2) the government now has control over it.
I think important to the OP's point on his particular situation, the rate increases in Quebec are simply bringing Quebec education up to almost as much as it costs anyone in the other provinces. School in Quebec for student who already lived in Quebec was almost free for years. So the steep hikes in fees are really then slowly losing their special subsidies for being a French population.
The government paying for stuff like education actualyl raises the price of education in total, as well as diminishing its value. If everyone has a degree it just becomes the new absolute minimum and doesn't help anyone with employment.
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Post secondary education should be cheaper.
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In a fair free and moral based world it should always be free , and the teachers should always be highly motivated cause they are not forced to do it for money but hey free market is always best right? Maybe if the world would stop to put a price tag on everything we could really start to think in what kind of world we all would like to life . I guess we could created a much more fair system . Maybe then posts like
On March 14 2012 06:36 Starshaped wrote: I think free education is a beautiful idea. However, should my taxes really go towards your poetry degree? Are all educations really worth as much?
Everything up until university definitely should be free, but I'm still not entirely convinced about anything after that.
would disappear or we go the other way and argue that your taxes should not be used to support poets so they can buy stuff to eat because who needs them anyway right? . Nobody should decide what will be taught and what not. It should all be based on the interests of the people involved . Of course they needs to be some basic level of understanding on a broad spectrum of topics to generate interests in them . I could wright an book about all this stupid stuff capitalism created but the problem is there is no normal way to get rid of this shit . Considering the parties in the western world theres no one whose arguing against the system itself . Because they are the ones who live on the back of rest of the world resources . Just look at this kony stuff i mean cmon that was filmed ages ago and now after they find oil the world police sends some troops to save the children yeah right. End of rant .
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