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Do not derail the thread with discussions about other topics like global warming. |
On March 13 2012 16:10 BenBuford wrote:Show nested quote +On March 13 2012 15:48 tetrismaan wrote: In Denmark it is free, and we even get 1000$ each month from the government, with the chance of making a student-rent for 650$ each month with 1% interest. Yep, it's pretty sweet. I think you meant student- loan though. I spent 6 years of my life getting my free education(s), and never having to work on the side, and my parents never paid any kroner (it's a real currency, stupid as it may sound ). It really let's you focus on studying. Now, I have a degree and a full time job, and have no problem paying my ~40% tax cut (~50% if you add all sorts of union fees/workers associations fees etc.). I got a lot from society in my twenties, and now I have the opportunity to give something back, while maintaining a decent living (annual income ~60k $). Yeah, "socialism" is torture .
Damn you and your LEGO and your insanely low unemployment rates.
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Yes, free education is good. This way everyone has an equal opportunity at success, and those who work hardest will reach their greatest potential, not just those who have the money to invest. I feel like colleges and universities should have some price tag attached to them, though it should cost certainly a lot less than it does in the united states. The cost is quite prohibitive to many people who would otherwise have put that education to good use. The costs in Canada don't sound quite so bad, and I think it is good that there is some kind of cost in order to motivate students to work hard to make the most out of their investment. If it was completely free students might feel less inclined to get their degree in a timely fashion.
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On March 13 2012 15:42 Datz2Ez wrote: At the moment, we pay around 1075$/semester (+/- 2000$/year) to go to university.
I am also from Canada and pay the same income tax as you do. But our fees are ~4500$/year in tuition for an undergraduate degree. That being said, I do not know how much the Quebec provincial government subsidizes universities.
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On March 14 2012 13:21 itkovian wrote: Yes, free education is good. This way everyone has an equal opportunity at success, and those who work hardest will reach their greatest potential, not just those who have the money to invest. I feel like colleges and universities should have some price tag attached to them, though it should cost certainly a lot less than it does in the united states. The cost is quite prohibitive to many people who would otherwise have put that education to good use. The costs in Canada don't sound quite so bad, and I think it is good that there is some kind of cost in order to motivate students to work hard to make the most out of their investment. If it was completely free students might feel less inclined to get their degree in a timely fashion.
I actually don't think having to pay a fee makes any difference. Often its the parents paying anyway, and if you are lazy you are gonna be lazy. I hardly went to any lectures even though I had to "pay" (courses are partially subsidised, but we also have to re-pay the leftover fees back to the government once we get a job).
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I am shocked , by some of the opinions in here.. Education , and by that i mean knowledge & a Professor to hammer it into your brain should be 100% Free. If you are a 60 year old man , deciding to be a doctor , you should be able to do it without paying 1 cent.
Here in poor Greece education in 100% free.(that includes books ofc) From age 3 - to whatever the f*** you want. We also have privet schools & Unis but they are considered a joke and a big laugh.
We get discounts for everything , from public transportation to Cinema tickets.
There are some occasions ,gov tried to "Earn" money from unis , and that without even making us pay something , just by some weird ways like "Sponsoring" some actions of the university or things like that , but the Greek mentality on the subject didn't allow it. The only thing we have to pay OVER THE 22-24 years of education(including university) is 2 $ for a plastic card(and that is optional) You also get paid if you are a good student etc.
People...srsly.... L2 Riot
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On March 14 2012 13:18 Defacer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 12:23 ampson wrote: The U.S. has the best schools in the world. We also pay the most. The way I see it, post-secondary schooling is an investment, so no, it should not be free. It shouldn't be crazy expensive either McGill and University of Toronto rank well in the QS World University rankings, and are dirt cheap compared to American schools. I'm not saying a good education isn't worth it ... but I hope Americans are looking for bargains Pretty much any school on those rankings that's not american is dirt cheap (or completely free) when compared to american schools. Plus "world" rankings are kind of worthless.
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As people say, there is nothing that is really free. someone somewhere pay for it. It could be you paying for it in term of tax or it could be other person paying interm of higher public transportation cost etc etc. So yeah, we all should should have access to standard education but also those who get it have to make it count.
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On March 14 2012 18:05 kaiz0ku wrote: I am shocked , by some of the opinions in here.. Education , and by that i mean knowledge & a Professor to hammer it into your brain should be 100% Free. If you are a 60 year old man , deciding to be a doctor , you should be able to do it without paying 1 cent.
Here in poor Greece education in 100% free.(that includes books ofc) From age 3 - to whatever the f*** you want. We also have privet schools & Unis but they are considered a joke and a big laugh.
We get discounts for everything , from public transportation to Cinema tickets.
There are some occasions ,gov tried to "Earn" money from unis , and that without even making us pay something , just by some weird ways like "Sponsoring" some actions of the university or things like that , but the Greek mentality on the subject didn't allow it. The only thing we have to pay OVER THE 22-24 years of education(including university) is 2 $ for a plastic card(and that is optional) You also get paid if you are a good student etc.
People...srsly.... L2 Riot
Greece isn't really a good example of "Free" education being towards the benefit for the country and the people involved.
Education shouldn't be free, the high prices in the states are too much but it really doesn't need to be free.
Countries like the US are feeling the crunch of a world based on Education. It's nearly impossible to earn a decent living as a dockworker, factory worker whatever and everybody wants to make 100k/year as an engineer. Education now is seen as a requirement to have a good life and this leads to a lack of jobs where too many people have educated themselves, and to many jobs with reduced pay because so many people can do it.
This drives down the amount people are paid in "lower quality" jobs because even college educated jobs are paying less, and the menial jobs, or trades, are paying less and being filled by people with college educations not necessarily the best people for the job.
I bet 100% of the people if they got polled in high school would rather be an engineer than a welder and that's becoming a big big problem. The economy is now much more top heavy and instead of 10% of the people having college educations it's going to be over 50%+ sometime in the future, that simply can't work and probably won't. There's only so many people to design the bridge, some have to build it.
*Statistics are not accurate/looked up just based on trends in the last 4 or 5 decades.
Edit: And paying 5-10k a year for a college Education shouldn't be a big deal for anybody. If you're good enough to "deserve" school then you can work a job for 20 hours a week to pay for it, even if the jobs flipping burgers.
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On March 14 2012 18:17 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 18:05 kaiz0ku wrote: I am shocked , by some of the opinions in here.. Education , and by that i mean knowledge & a Professor to hammer it into your brain should be 100% Free. If you are a 60 year old man , deciding to be a doctor , you should be able to do it without paying 1 cent.
Here in poor Greece education in 100% free.(that includes books ofc) From age 3 - to whatever the f*** you want. We also have privet schools & Unis but they are considered a joke and a big laugh.
We get discounts for everything , from public transportation to Cinema tickets.
There are some occasions ,gov tried to "Earn" money from unis , and that without even making us pay something , just by some weird ways like "Sponsoring" some actions of the university or things like that , but the Greek mentality on the subject didn't allow it. The only thing we have to pay OVER THE 22-24 years of education(including university) is 2 $ for a plastic card(and that is optional) You also get paid if you are a good student etc.
People...srsly.... L2 Riot
Greece isn't really a good example of "Free" education being towards the benefit for the country and the people involved. Education shouldn't be free, the high prices in the states are too much but it really doesn't need to be free. Countries like the US are feeling the crunch of a world based on Education. It's nearly impossible to earn a decent living as a dockworker, factory worker whatever and everybody wants to make 100k/year as an engineer. Education now is seen as a requirement to have a good life and this leads to a lack of jobs where too many people have educated themselves, and to many jobs with reduced pay because so many people can do it. This drives down the amount people are paid in "lower quality" jobs because even college educated jobs are paying less, and the menial jobs, or trades, are paying less and being filled by people with college educations not necessarily the best people for the job. I bet 100% of the people if they got polled in high school would rather be an engineer than a welder and that's becoming a big big problem. The economy is now much more top heavy and instead of 10% of the people having college educations it's going to be over 50%+ sometime in the future, that simply can't work and probably won't. There's only so many people to design the bridge, some have to build it.*Statistics are not accurate/looked up just based on trends in the last 4 or 5 decades. Why isn't this happening in Sweden then? There are a ton of countries in Europe with free/almost free education who are doing just fine. Personally I know alot of people from high school who hated math/science and wanted to do some more practical work like welding or carpentry (which pays damn well in Sweden atleast).
Mind linking these statistics?
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On March 13 2012 15:42 Datz2Ez wrote:Hi fellow members, Let's start first to give you the context of my threadI live in montreal, quebec, Canada. We live in a society that was founded mostly with left politic. Our health system is free and our education fees are low. At the moment, we pay around 1075$/semester (+/- 2000$/year) to go to university. Even if the fees our low, the average student end university with +/- 15 000 in dept. Our governement wants us to now pay 1600$/year more. In other terms, they are asking the students to double the dept they end with Students are now on strike and asking the governement to cancel the raise. You have to be aware that this only represent 1.2% of the global education budget so we are not talking about a huge sum. Where do I stand?To be honest, I always tought everyone should have equal access to education. The best way would be to make it free. I think we should favor more an 'elitism' way of choosing the students by looking more into the grades. I will not get into the details and argue on both side but I was really interrested to see what people all over think about education. EDIT: We pay around 40-45% in tax... so yea we have low fees but we pay it back in some way. P.S. This is no democrat vs republicans Forgive my poor english it is not my first language.
Shut up. Seriously, shut up you freeloading hippy.
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On March 14 2012 10:05 Jonas wrote:The United States has the best collegiate and post-graduate schools in the world because they charge people a lot of money for that education. If people want to go to cheap community colleges for their eduation they can, but they will get less out of that investment. The best schools in the world require a steep price, obviously. Granted, I think that $50,000/year to go to many of the US's top schools are insane, but I mean around half of the students attending these schools receive at least some kind of financial aid...
So you think it is ok that rich kids can just cruise through because their parents pay for their tuition?
I agree that IF everybody had an equal chance of actually loaning these money, then your argument holds. However as it is now, no low-income kid who wants to work hard can just take out a 50,000$/year loan for 5 years and be like "EZ PZ, when I get my degree I can just pay the money back" So many people just assume that everyone has money to make that investment, not seeing education as a thing to improve the countries welfare, but just as a personal investment. However the current American system doesn't promote even rights among people.
But what do I know, I live in a "socialist" country with free education. Denmark is SO crappy, both in levels of education and distribution of wealth among all... Ohh wait, that's not us
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All I can say is, ever since they introduced private unis in our country, a huge number of retarded, spoiled dumbass rich kids finally managed to mysteriously graduate they must have some super-efficient hard work encouraging mechanisms in there!
Up to secondary education, school should be 100% free and equal for everyone. I could write a long piece explaining why exactly that benefits society and the human race, but I'll rather just say anyone who can't see this is a bona fide cretin.
University should be either merit-based or paid for, because by that time you're a grown person with a solid education base, and abuse of higher education happens all the time with people who don't really want to study but find it convenient.
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There is no "free" education. The money has to come from somewhere. Much like public elementary and high school, there might not visibly be a fee, but its from taxpayer's money that funds all the necessary teachers and equipments at school.
With that said, a more inexpensive option would be nice. I don't know why the US tuitions cost so much and I would imagine their schools aren't any better than other first world nations, unless they're the incredibly good ones like MIT or Harvard.
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On March 14 2012 18:42 Meteora.GB wrote: There is no "free" education.
Omg stop with that. You're like the 30th person saying that. It may look smart but I think we all know we are talking about free for the students, therefor paid by the taxpayers.
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It's around triple in Australia, but the HECS system makes it possible for anyone to study (interest free loan), the US is the worst, if you're poor and not bright enough to receive a full scholarship, you cannot study, simply not worth it
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On March 13 2012 15:48 tetrismaan wrote: In Denmark it is free, and we even get 1000$ each month from the government, with the chance of making a student-rent for 650$ each month with 1% interest.
Denmark also has the highest taxes in the world, so it evens out after you graduate. But that gives everyone a good chance to start their education which they can then use, later, to earn some money which they wouldn´t have been able to earn otherwise.
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On March 14 2012 18:52 TanTzoR wrote:Omg stop with that. You're like the 30th person saying that. It may look smart but I think we all know we are talking about free for the students, therefor paid by the taxpayers. Actually, it doesn't look smart but incredibly dumb. It's like saying milk doesn't originate from the fridge.The fact that this is even considered postworthy - once every two pages even - makes me think that education should be made more readily available for everyone.
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in response to the title:
yes.
edit: i'll elaborate. i assume you mean higher education (college/university and above). my time in college fundamentally change my outlook on life, and honestly for the better. i was an apathetic asshole beforehand. my partner (who knew me in high school) even can't believe sometimes that she goes out with that person she used to know. if there is one thing to take away from higher education, it's critical thinking. that is what changed me.
why should that be free? because it furthers society as a whole. it contributes to society. it makes every member in society that much more aware and that much more contributing. while i'm not going to argue the logistics of making higher education free, in a fantasy world if you want to further advance a society, higher education has to be free.
now if you want to argue logistics, its not going to happen under capitalism. not purposely trying to sound like some hardcore marxist extremist, but its true. college as an institution under capitalism is design to produce members of society who will contribute to the capitalist machine (ie make money), not to actually educate themselves in any way that goes against that (not saying college doesn't educate currently, just that its education has a different purpose). it is also required to function as a capitalist institution in that it needs to make money. critical thinking doesn't necessarily teach you to be a proper cog in the machine.
ok, that does sound hardcore extremist after all, but fuck it, don't feel like rewriting it so that it doesn't.
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France public university is about 500 euros / year
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On March 14 2012 18:17 Filter wrote:Show nested quote +On March 14 2012 18:05 kaiz0ku wrote: I am shocked , by some of the opinions in here.. Education , and by that i mean knowledge & a Professor to hammer it into your brain should be 100% Free. If you are a 60 year old man , deciding to be a doctor , you should be able to do it without paying 1 cent.
Here in poor Greece education in 100% free.(that includes books ofc) From age 3 - to whatever the f*** you want. We also have privet schools & Unis but they are considered a joke and a big laugh.
We get discounts for everything , from public transportation to Cinema tickets.
There are some occasions ,gov tried to "Earn" money from unis , and that without even making us pay something , just by some weird ways like "Sponsoring" some actions of the university or things like that , but the Greek mentality on the subject didn't allow it. The only thing we have to pay OVER THE 22-24 years of education(including university) is 2 $ for a plastic card(and that is optional) You also get paid if you are a good student etc.
People...srsly.... L2 Riot
Greece isn't really a good example of "Free" education being towards the benefit for the country and the people involved. Education shouldn't be free, the high prices in the states are too much but it really doesn't need to be free. Countries like the US are feeling the crunch of a world based on Education. It's nearly impossible to earn a decent living as a dockworker, factory worker whatever and everybody wants to make 100k/year as an engineer. Education now is seen as a requirement to have a good life and this leads to a lack of jobs where too many people have educated themselves, and to many jobs with reduced pay because so many people can do it. This drives down the amount people are paid in "lower quality" jobs because even college educated jobs are paying less, and the menial jobs, or trades, are paying less and being filled by people with college educations not necessarily the best people for the job. I bet 100% of the people if they got polled in high school would rather be an engineer than a welder and that's becoming a big big problem. The economy is now much more top heavy and instead of 10% of the people having college educations it's going to be over 50%+ sometime in the future, that simply can't work and probably won't. There's only so many people to design the bridge, some have to build it.*Statistics are not accurate/looked up just based on trends in the last 4 or 5 decades. Edit: And paying 5-10k a year for a college Education shouldn't be a big deal for anybody. If you're good enough to "deserve" school then you can work a job for 20 hours a week to pay for it, even if the jobs flipping burgers.
I understand what you are saying.. but that is now exactly how it works. If you want to be an engineer , it doesn't mean you are allowed to study it. Once you reach the end of highschool , we have the final exams. In greece the grades you get from your hichschool teachers , or the grades you have aquaired during the years count as nothing. For 2-3 weeks Every person in greece that wants to be tested ( in order to study) sits down at the exact same time , giving the exact same subject as everyone else.
A few hours later the solutions to the problems(answers to the questions) are Solved on national Tv by some professor. Your grades result from 1-20 , and different subjects have different values (for example if you want to be a programmer math counts more than let's say physics.) If you are below 10 you are not accepted in a university , if you are 10-15 you are accepted in lower tier unis , from 15-18 you are accepted in good-very good unis and from 18-20 you reach God mode .
P.S. fun facts : You prepare for this 2 weeks for almost 2 years. 1 month later the results come out... you cry. You almost always Cry. (JK if ur good u don't xD) and 3 months later ALL the kids gather at cafes. For 3 hours the Base for each university in the whole country is announced. And then around 2 p.m. you can walk around and see people crying and crawling in despair :D
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