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On April 13 2012 13:37 Energizer wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945. To be quite frank I have my doubts that Japan even wants an standing army at this point, as any money they would be spending on an army is instead going to America to place bases in their country allowing Japan to focus solely on domestic growth. Because lets face it, if anyone were to attack Japan - it would invoke the US to respond militarily. Of course that's not to say it couldn't change - after all who would stop Japan from training a full fledged army if they really wanted one? The UN?
America, actually. According to the terms of surrender, Japan can only be allowed a Self Defense Force. All major defense needs would be (and are) handled by the United States of America. Japan cannot have a standing army/navy/air force/marine corps. The size of which is dictated by the United States.
Granted, the JSDF has seen action in oversea's campaigns. Iraq, Afghanistan, ect... I believe, and could be wrong, those overseas operations can only happen with the approval of the United States Military Command.
I think that's how the treaty was originally written. How much of the latter is enforced, I don't know.
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Thing is, even if North Korea successfully launched a nuke at the US, the US has the capability to, say, launch enough firepower from a carrier in the Indian Ocean to turn South Korea into an island.
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On April 13 2012 12:18 Amui wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
Confuzzling NK is confuzzling :S I don't think you realize just how difficult it is to intercept something successfully moving at mach 10+, and if you intercept on reentry, closing speeds of near or even exceeding mach 15. You can either kill it in launch phase or intercept as it's coming in, but catching it once it gets going to be impossible. The number of population centers with missile defense systems are REALLY, REALLY low. It's a lot easier to build a nuke than to launch a successful guided rocket though. NK has sucessfully made nukes. They just haven't managed to build a rocket that can deliver it. Is there anything you don't know?
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On April 13 2012 13:52 ticklishmusic wrote: Thing is, even if North Korea successfully launched a nuke at the US, the US has the capability to, say, launch enough firepower from a carrier in the Indian Ocean to turn South Korea into an island.
Any retaliation from a nuclear launch from North Korea to the United States would have to be conventional. The radiation would blow towards Japan, or South Korea, where Americans who are wither Military or civilian are living.
Not to say we couldn't... we have enough M.O.A.B's in inventory to do the job....
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On April 13 2012 13:45 Crackensan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 13:37 Energizer wrote:On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945. To be quite frank I have my doubts that Japan even wants an standing army at this point, as any money they would be spending on an army is instead going to America to place bases in their country allowing Japan to focus solely on domestic growth. Because lets face it, if anyone were to attack Japan - it would invoke the US to respond militarily. Of course that's not to say it couldn't change - after all who would stop Japan from training a full fledged army if they really wanted one? The UN? America, actually. According to the terms of surrender, Japan can only be allowed a Self Defense Force. All major defense needs would be (and are) handled by the United States of America. Japan cannot have a standing army/navy/air force/marine corps. The size of which is dictated by the United States. Granted, the JSDF has seen action in oversea's campaigns. Iraq, Afghanistan, ect... I believe, and could be wrong, those overseas operations can only happen with the approval of the United States Military Command. I think that's how the treaty was originally written. How much of the latter is enforced, I don't know.
The whole point about the theoretical recruitment of a Japanese army wasn't concerning the legitimacy of the treaty, it was about enforcement. Now please explain to me, how would the US enforce the treaty if Japan drastically increased their military size - perhaps enough to match that of the US?
Honestly the only two enforcement options the US would have at that point would be to either outright occupy Japan until they decommission (and honestly I doubt any politician at this point wants to risk their next term over another possible war) or use their voting power in the UN to install sanctions on Japan - which would be a tough sell I'd imagine.
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Japan increasing it's military forces would benefit the US because, as things stand now, that money will buy US made equipment and since Japan doesn't have it's own independent foreign policy, it would strengthen the power the US projects in the region.
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On April 13 2012 13:55 Crackensan wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 13:52 ticklishmusic wrote: Thing is, even if North Korea successfully launched a nuke at the US, the US has the capability to, say, launch enough firepower from a carrier in the Indian Ocean to turn South Korea into an island. Any retaliation from a nuclear launch from North Korea to the United States would have to be conventional. The radiation would blow towards Japan, or South Korea, where Americans who are wither Military or civilian are living. Not to say we couldn't... we have enough M.O.A.B's in inventory to do the job.... Or we could use covert tactics and take out the NK government then establish capitalism there and give the people there jobs as cheap labor since little income > almost no income then have global economy flourish by exploiting the NK citizens but at the same time increase their quality of life since they have no quality right now any quality is better than no quality and everyone wins.
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On April 13 2012 14:04 Miyoshino wrote: Japan increasing it's military forces would benefit the US because, as things stand now, that money will buy US made equipment and since Japan doesn't have it's own independent foreign policy, it would strengthen the power the US projects in the region.
Not to derail the thread, but this post intrigues me.
Does the US sell any of its current-gen military hardware to anybody? As far as I know, even our closest NATO allies don't have any F-22s, for example. They're all flying F-35s or worse.
Modern economists say that specialization and free trade is one of the keys to increasing wealth. Yet, if the United States spends trillions each year on military development, yet doesn't export any of it, this is essentially the same as an isolationist state. It would be the same as spending trillions developing a steel or automotive or telecommunications industry and infrastructure, but not exporting it internationally.
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They don't. I think even the F-35s they will be selling lack some features their own F-35's will have. Also, there's always the speculation about them having a kill switch or something similar.
NATO basically exists for the US to be able to sell their military equipment to their allies and subsidize their own military industry this way. The moment Japan does away with their article 13, or whatever the number is, the will instantly join NATO anyway. So it won't really change anything.
Anyway this talk about N Korea using nukes, it's all about the artillery aimed at Seoul.
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The F-22 Program was killed a few years ago by Congress in favor of the F-35 JSF.
Yes. The F-22 program is "dead". The only Raptors left in service will be used until they are obsolete or deemed unfit to fly.
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The F-35 program isn't any more healthy. F-35 is a flawed airplane. The stealth is laregely obsolete. It's irrelevant and can be circumvented anyway. As an air to air fighter, F-35 will probably lose vs 5th gen Chinese and Russian planes. As an attack aircraft the payload is very limited because it had to be stealthy. And then it isn't too cheap either.
Japan picked F-35, India is buying Rafale, S Korea will probably also buy.
F-22 is purely for domestic use. When time passes on and F-15's are being retired and when there is a need for it, the US will start to produce more F-22s.
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So apparently the rocket took a shit right after it left the ground. Big surprise...
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confirmed. rocket had an issue during the fly 151km from the ground to air. it got seperated into 4 pieces and they have fell to the ocean.
south koreans dispatched boats to collect the pieces to perform investigation on them.
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oh god... they're testing the terran's new long-range missle unit blizzard made for HotS, ARMAGEDDON
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On April 13 2012 13:23 Blasterion wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945. Japan doesn't need an army, They have Koizumi and his RISING SUN!!!!!!! + Show Spoiler +Koizumi will protect japan from any NK shenanigans with his.... You see earlier today while the entire japan was like this Koizumi went to delegate with NK with a mahjong game with the NK Leader and NK leader lost so he threw a tantrum and launched the Taepodong and Koizumi was like NO! so he got into a fighter jet and shot that shit down himself. What a manly man. I knew we can count on Koizumi!
Seems Legit.
I think this whole thing is really funny though... North Korea is just so surreal
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On April 13 2012 13:55 cvt wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 12:18 Amui wrote:On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
Confuzzling NK is confuzzling :S I don't think you realize just how difficult it is to intercept something successfully moving at mach 10+, and if you intercept on reentry, closing speeds of near or even exceeding mach 15. You can either kill it in launch phase or intercept as it's coming in, but catching it once it gets going to be impossible. The number of population centers with missile defense systems are REALLY, REALLY low. It's a lot easier to build a nuke than to launch a successful guided rocket though. NK has sucessfully made nukes. They just haven't managed to build a rocket that can deliver it. Is there anything you don't know?
You should look this up before you start being smarmy. Intercepting ballistic missiles is like trying to hit a tennis ball out of the air with one of your own.
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On April 13 2012 15:25 Reyis wrote:south koreans dispatched boats to collect the pieces to perform investigation on them. uh.. and the north koreans don't mind if they do this?
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On April 13 2012 16:00 Assault_1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2012 15:25 Reyis wrote:south koreans dispatched boats to collect the pieces to perform investigation on them. uh.. and the north koreans don't mind if they do this?
They sent up a rocket even after they were advised not to, the rocket landed in South Korean waters. Of course they might get grumpy but they really don't have anything to whine about...
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I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
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On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
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