On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
Well to start, China is the sole reason that North-Korea exists in the first place.
And second, China is keeping that regime on its feet.
China isn't responsible for making North-Korea as insane as it is, and I never claimed they were, but they are responsible for not pulling the plug on this atrocity.
The USA can fix this abomination with an invasion. China could fix this by putting on the pressure and forcing change. North-Korea remains stable by the grace of China.
But as always, everything is going to fall on the shoulders of the US, and people will whine and complain that the US is playing world police. Good thing someone is when even regional powers like China are too incompetent to sort out their own backyard.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
IMO it's perfectly logical what the NK ruling class are doing, which is to keep as much power as possible, keep their people as uninformed as possible, while putting international aid and what little their country produces in their own homes and pockets. It's textbook 1984. In this respect I feel the ruling class in NK are quite rational. Realise that there are two ways to retain power, one is being benevolent and the other, well, is what most dictatorships are doing.
As for China-NK, well China and USA are distrustful or each other, given Cold War roots to the tension, China's recent rise that is threatening "the West", and the Korean War which almost lead to war between China and USA (honestly, China felt like what the Americans felt during the Cuban Missile Crisis). But yeah, life in NK is miserable, China shouldn't mollycoddle their leaders so much just because they are "Communist" (and hilariously have "Democratic" in the name)
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
Well to start, China is the sole reason that North-Korea exists in the first place.
And second, China is keeping that regime on its feet.
China isn't responsible for making North-Korea as insane as it is, and I never claimed they were, but they are responsible for not pulling the plug on this atrocity.
The USA can fix this abomination with an invasion. China could fix this by putting on the pressure and forcing change. North-Korea remains stable by the grace of China.
But as always, everything is going to fall on the shoulders of the US, and people will whine and complain that the US is playing world police. Good thing someone is when even regional powers like China are too incompetent to sort out their own backyard.
"Can't be fucked" would be more accurate, since China has little incentive to help pull down a regime when the border will be flooded with refugees. That is something that US doesn't need to worry about, no?
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
Well to start, China is the sole reason that North-Korea exists in the first place.
And second, China is keeping that regime on its feet.
China isn't responsible for making North-Korea as insane as it is, and I never claimed they were, but they are responsible for not pulling the plug on this atrocity.
The USA can fix this abomination with an invasion. China could fix this by putting on the pressure and forcing change. North-Korea remains stable by the grace of China.
But as always, everything is going to fall on the shoulders of the US, and people will whine and complain that the US is playing world police. Good thing someone is when even regional powers like China are too incompetent to sort out their own backyard.
"Can't be fucked" would be more accurate, since China has little incentive to help pull down a regime when the border will be flooded with refugees. That is something that US doesn't need to worry about, no?
There is a middle ground between:
1) Giving food and sustaining the regime.
2) Withdrawing all food and knocking the regime over.
They can just apply political pressure and push the regime towards change. They hold the power over North-Korea, and if the North-Korean government is as rational as many seem to believe, then they know this just as well.
China only cares about maintaining the ability to keep refugees out. They don't need to have peace with North-Korea for that to be the case. It works now, but the more unstable North-Korea grows, the more likely they will settle for an agressive stance against North-Korea, giving them the pretext to set up their own army to keep the North-koreans out.
I don't believe that North-Korea is immune to pressure from China, but if they are, the reason to invade has only become greater. A totalitarian nuclear armed nation that literally doesn't give a fuck what anyone says? Yeah, that is really going to be a stabilizing force in the world.
North-Korea has been going off the deep end for a while, and if we are to believe the wikileaks, even China doesn't fully control them anymore. So what are we to do? The smart plan is to influence North-Korea via the political road whilst it is still an option, rather than the invasion that will otherwise be inevitable.
The problem is that China's government lacks the spine to or insight to do what is right. They prefer to try and maintain a status quo that won't last. Meanwhile, the tumor only grows.
Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
On April 13 2012 18:27 mcc wrote: Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
Okay, may I give you an analogy.. I do have the right to own an m4a1, what would you feel if I shoot my BDMFing gun on your backyard? That's the real problem here, NK is going to test those missiles in Japan.. The world won't give a damn if they develop rockets as long as they test in on their ground.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
The logic is easy to see for anyone actually looking. What NK is doing is rather pragmatic from the point of view of the ruling elite in NK. They are caught between rock and hard-place, put there by the actions of the previous elite. They need to keep ideological pressure on their population (hence all the expensive stuff, including nukes and rockets), they need to create a deterrent against possible invasion (again hence the nukes and rockets) and they need to make sure their population does not die. They are trying to balance it, but of course they fail in some areas and small/medium famines are easily blamed on the US/SK. Of course they are morally bankrupt, but they are behaving pragmatically using the information they have to preserve their power. Launching a nuke on another country does not help them in this goal. On the other hand having a nuke and delivery system does. So they are trying to build it.
As for the rocket, it will be used for the first purpose (propaganda) anyway as they will most likely proclaim it succeeded as they did previously. They will order their population to tune in to a radio frequency that will be broadcasting from the "successfuly" launched satellite, of course noone in Korea has the ability to verify if it is actually from space (as having such equipment is punishable by death) so they easily can do that.
Interesting read for all the experts here on the China-DPRK relationships: Look up the cablegate (from wikileaks) releases from the Shenyang embassy in China (the US consulate closest to the DPRK), thats where all the 'secret' stuff about the connections between the two countries are posted. Too bad it's only from 2010 etc., but still highly relevant to your interests I guess.. Edit: Might also be interesting to you that the DPRK is not only "aided"/financed by China, but also many expatriates living in Korea (the Koreans who moved to Japan back when Korea was unified and under Japanese control, and stayed in Japan after WW 2).
On April 13 2012 18:27 mcc wrote: Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
Okay, may I give you an analogy.. I do have the right to own an m4a1, what would you feel if I shoot my BDMFing gun on your backyard? That's the real problem here, NK is going to test those missiles in Japan.. The world won't give a damn if they develop rockets as long as they test in on their ground.
In Japan you mean they will shoot at Japan, or that the rocket will fail and fall down on Japan ? It is not like air space above certain elevation is sacrosanct in international politics. Many nations capable of that violate air space of other nations.
On April 13 2012 13:45 Miyoshino wrote: Japan is basically a vassal state of the US. It has no independent foreign policy. It's self defense force is already adequate to be a proper military. The problem is all the US bases on their territory. The Japanese people want them gone. Their politicians get elected with this campaign promise. But when they get into power the Japanese prime minster actually doesn't have the power to force the Americans out. This is one of the main reason of the internal political turmoil in Japan. And this turmoil doesn't help with the internal problems they have. Japan can be the new Greece.
Japan needs to change its constitution. Maybe now with the decrease in political apethy in the wake of Fukushima, where Japanese people actually start to denounce their government, people power may be able to force the US military to leave where Japanese politians can't and grant Japan independence because right now Japan is still defacto occupied by a foreign power.
Being defeated in a war teaches pacificm. You can see this both in Germany and Japan. This is a lesson the people of some countries, like Israel and the US, still need to learn.
This is so true. As a foreigner living in Japan right now, I know that Japanese people want US bases on their lands gone. From what I've observed, American soldiers tend to make a lot of trouble, they can get real rowdy in bars. It's disgusting =/
I support the notion that Japan should have its own standing army. They have enough technology to create a fearsome army with a decade. Imperial Japan is gone...they should have its own army to have some sort of protection from the ever-growing Chinese force nearby.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
The logic is easy to see for anyone actually looking. What NK is doing is rather pragmatic from the point of view of the ruling elite in NK. They are caught between rock and hard-place, put there by the actions of the previous elite. They need to keep ideological pressure on their population (hence all the expensive stuff, including nukes and rockets), they need to create a deterrent against possible invasion (again hence the nukes and rockets) and they need to make sure their population does not die. They are trying to balance it, but of course they fail in some areas and small/medium famines are easily blamed on the US/SK. Of course they are morally bankrupt, but they are behaving pragmatically using the information they have to preserve their power. Launching a nuke on another country does not help them in this goal. On the other hand having a nuke and delivery system does. So they are trying to build it.
As for the rocket, it will be used for the first purpose (propaganda) anyway as they will most likely proclaim it succeeded as they did previously. They will order their population to tune in to a radio frequency that will be broadcasting from the "successfuly" launched satellite, of course noone in Korea has the ability to verify if it is actually from space (as having such equipment is punishable by death) so they easily can do that.
There is no record of the North-Korean government pursueing such novelty propaganda achievements.
They wouldn't even need to fire a rocket, they wouldn't even need to build it. They could air a message about how Kim-Jong-Un jumped to the moon, claimed it as North-Korean land, then jumped back, and a decent chunk of people would shrug and accept it.
The nation is already firmly in the governments grasp, only the outlying regions, which produce and are derived of most of the food, are a real threat for stability. With food, they have something to hold over their people. Do as we say, or we let you starve.
Right now it is do as I say, and you will starve.
Trying to score a propaganda victory is pointless and certainly not pragmatic when you realize that NK is so shut off and brainwashed that they could fabricate the entire rocket from thin air and it would serve the same purpose, except then they would also get their food since nobody gives a shit what lies the NK government tells their people.
I mean, nobody here has any doubts that the missile launch is being reported as a giant succes, all the while, the government is probably executing a few of the people that worked on it for disgracing the state.
Succes, failure, it doesn't matter. The nation is so brainwashed they might as well take the food and conjure up the rocket from their imagination, a rocket that would probably work a great deal better than this one.
Seriously, it has been going on for decades. Everytime NK ran out of foods, they are somehow acquiring nuclear stuff until the next food aids. Honestly, I do not think Japan, South Korea, or China wants to absorb NK when the regime dies off. Everything is that country is so fucked up. Instead, they keep providing foods so they can have their own fantasy land.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
The logic is easy to see for anyone actually looking. What NK is doing is rather pragmatic from the point of view of the ruling elite in NK. They are caught between rock and hard-place, put there by the actions of the previous elite. They need to keep ideological pressure on their population (hence all the expensive stuff, including nukes and rockets), they need to create a deterrent against possible invasion (again hence the nukes and rockets) and they need to make sure their population does not die. They are trying to balance it, but of course they fail in some areas and small/medium famines are easily blamed on the US/SK. Of course they are morally bankrupt, but they are behaving pragmatically using the information they have to preserve their power. Launching a nuke on another country does not help them in this goal. On the other hand having a nuke and delivery system does. So they are trying to build it.
As for the rocket, it will be used for the first purpose (propaganda) anyway as they will most likely proclaim it succeeded as they did previously. They will order their population to tune in to a radio frequency that will be broadcasting from the "successfuly" launched satellite, of course noone in Korea has the ability to verify if it is actually from space (as having such equipment is punishable by death) so they easily can do that.
There is no record of the North-Korean government pursueing such novelty propaganda achievements.
They wouldn't even need to fire a rocket, they wouldn't even need to build it. They could air a message about how Kim-Jong-Un jumped to the moon, claimed it as North-Korean land, then jumped back, and a decent chunk of people would shrug and accept it.
The nation is already firmly in the governments grasp, only the outlying regions, which produce and are derived of most of the food, are a real threat for stability. With food, they have something to hold over their people. Do as we say, or we let you starve.
Right now it is do as I say, and you will starve.
Trying to score a propaganda victory is pointless and certainly not pragmatic when you realize that NK is so shut off and brainwashed that they could fabricate the entire rocket from thin air and it would serve the same purpose, except then they would also get their food since nobody gives a shit what lies the NK government tells their people.
I mean, nobody here has any doubts that the missile launch is being reported as a giant succes, all the while, the government is probably executing a few of the people that worked on it for disgracing the state.
Succes, failure, it doesn't matter. The nation is so brainwashed they might as well take the food and conjure up the rocket from their imagination, a rocket that would probably work a great deal better than this one.
Did you notice the dual purpose of the nukes and weapons I mentioned ? They want them actually working for military purposes, they are just using them also for propaganda. So no they could not just "conjure up the rocket from their imagination".
On April 13 2012 18:27 mcc wrote: Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
Okay, may I give you an analogy.. I do have the right to own an m4a1, what would you feel if I shoot my BDMFing gun on your backyard? That's the real problem here, NK is going to test those missiles in Japan.. The world won't give a damn if they develop rockets as long as they test in on their ground.
In Japan you mean they will shoot at Japan, or that the rocket will fail and fall down on Japan ? It is not like air space above certain elevation is sacrosanct in international politics. Many nations capable of that violate air space of other nations.
no, many nations cant violate the air space of the big 3 + 1 nations. usa, uk, russia and +1 as china. these nations dont need permission from anyone to send something to the space while rest of the world must take permission from the international community to do such stuff.
North Korea was forbidden to do such a thing, cant even ask for a permission. There will be a punishment for that in the future.
But lets say, if Czech Republic did it without permission, that would have had lesser punishment for it because Czech are not forbidden to make those rockets but they must ask permission from the big 3 + 1 to launch.