North Korea has begun preparing for a rocket launch next month (April) despite international condemnation. Japan, South Korea, and US vowed to shoot down the projectile if it poses a threat. World leaders insist that any lauch will be a violation of anti-missile treaty. But it seems that North Korea is already done with stage 1 of the launch and is preparing according to schedule the launch of the rocket. Pyongyang said the first stage would fall about 140 kilometres (87 miles) off South Korea's west coast, in international waters between China and the South. The second stage was expected to splash down 190 kilometres east of the northern Philippines.
The North has said it will launch the satellite some time in the morning between April 12-16 to mark the 100th anniversary of the birth of founding president Kim Il-Sung. The North agreed to a moratorium on long-range launches as part of the deal with Washington, but it argues that its satellite launches are part of a peaceful space program for scientific and humanitarian purpose that is exempt from any international disarmament agreements. Among the scientific reasons it provided include measuring crop yields, weather data, and sea life for research.
South Korea, which currently has icy relations with its neighbour, says the launch aims to test technology which could one day deliver a nuclear warhead. The North is estimated to have enough plutonium for six to eight weapons, but it is unclear whether it has mastered the technology to create an atomic warhead. The North fired off long-range missiles in 1998, 2006 and 2009. After the two most recent launches it swiftly followed up with an underground nuclear test, and some analysts see a similar scenario unfolding this time.
This is important news to the region as well as the world. US relations in Asia, as well China in particular. Why is China silent on this? And why does North Korea insist despite many violations. This is tense time for everyone.
I think that this type of stuff is only going to get more and more frequent. The only realistic way to deal with the threat that I can envision would be some sort of missile defense system, like the idea that Reagan proposed. It seems much more practical to spend our resources developing technology to shoot down nukes than to try to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands, given the tens of thousands of warheads that exist today.
Cause they like having NK on their border. They don't want US soldiers any closer than they are and so support NK despite the crazy.
The worst part about this is that NK is using its starving population for extortion. Give us aid or they die, oh and never mind the rocket, it's an illusion cause by moonlight refracting through swamp gas >_>
I can't imagine this being anything serious, as with the recent talks between US and NK for food in exchange for a scale-back of their nuclear program. Unless of course I've missed something in between, which is entirely possible.
On March 30 2012 14:38 KhAmun wrote: I can't imagine this being anything serious, as with the recent talks between US and NK for food in exchange for a scale-back of their nuclear program. Unless of course I've missed something in between, which is entirely possible.
Yeah, I believe those talks and exchanges occurred before the announcement of the missile launch.
And the US has suspended that aid because of this announcement. Shit is serious.
Like everything with NK you hope they won't one day just decide to do something stupid. It's like the cold war with a really small and possibly insane nation.
On March 30 2012 14:45 Probulous wrote: And the US has suspended that aid because of this announcement. Shit is serious.
Like everything with NK you hope they won't one day just decide to do something stupid. It's like the cold war with a really small and possibly insane nation.
Sanctions never create serious matters.
NK maybe crazy, but they arn't going to fire off nukes because they would just get wiped off the planet.
On March 30 2012 14:48 DannyJ wrote: Stand back world as we display our 1950's technology.
This, why are people afraid? We'd know well ahead of time if they actually developed/were developing anything that could actually hurt us, and could destroy it/them before it did anything.
See that is a rational position and is precisely why NK concerns me. They have a propensity to do irrational shit. Maybe one day Kim Jong-un has a bad case of constipation due to inferior NK laxatives and just decides he has had enough. Fuck em all so to speak.
I mean they were just about to receive a huge shipment of aid and then they pull this shit? Why not wait till after the aid arrives
arent the missles north korea are developing like obsolete everywhere else? Couldnt they be shot down pretty easily? i feel like people are acting like they are some crazy superpower with the ability to wipe any country off the map when in reality its just like a child with a lighter that just needs to be disarmed if they try to hurt anyone with it.
edit: and if its really is just a satellite and they just want to send it into space i feel kind of sorry for them haha.
but it argues that its satellite launches are part of a peaceful space program for scientific and humanitarian purpose that is exempt from any international disarmament agreements. Among the scientific reasons it provided include measuring crop yields, weather data, and sea life for research.
ARE THEY FUCKING SERIOUS? North Korea is the biggest real life troll! We really need to stop them before this escalates into something we can't anymore control.
On March 30 2012 14:48 DannyJ wrote: Stand back world as we display our 1950's technology.
This, why are people afraid? We'd know well ahead of time if they actually developed/were developing anything that could actually hurt us, and could destroy it/them before it did anything.
I would suggest a hole where Seoul used to be is probably something worth being concerned about. They have pulled stunts before (their last atomic test for example) which were unexpected. 1950's technology can still do damage. It is highly unlikely they would do anything soon given the untested nature of their delivery system, but that is precisely why this test is unnerving.
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
Nukes for NK are like boobs for sluty girls. If they got em they want to show it to every one, just to inform ppl. Or its just China's provokation to start a global conflict. O_O
rofl. funny cuz they recently asked for aid and got it, in return they stop this shit. but they do it again. hmmmm i guess we just gotta keep trusting them cuz next time they might keep their promise.
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
russia and china dont have military bases in SK...
On March 30 2012 14:27 Voltaire wrote: I think that this type of stuff is only going to get more and more frequent. The only realistic way to deal with the threat that I can envision would be some sort of missile defense system, like the idea that Reagan proposed. It seems much more practical to spend our resources developing technology to shoot down nukes than to try to prevent them from falling into the wrong hands, given the tens of thousands of warheads that exist today.
lol reagan's star wars project? btw we already have missile defense systems in place. US isnt dumb, they know how to defend themselves, so do the SKs. we can shoot down anything NK fires, easy. the catch is that shooting down a NK missile will probably escalate the situation leading to something more severe.
The problem is the damn artillery that NK has pointed at Seoul. shells are harder to shoot down than missiles.
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
If America had only bothered with itself, it would probably have nukes aimed at its major cities from both Cuba and Mexico. Isolationism isn't the key to prosperity and safety. There are people that want to murder you, regardless of what you do
As for this, invade North-Korea.
China should join with America in an invasion of North-Korea. Allow China to monitor the district. Admit that North and South Korea will never again be one nation.
Right now we are just waiting for the day that they bombard South-Korea to ashes with artillery whilst they shoot Japan back into the stone age with nuclear missiles.
The complete destruction of South-Korea and Japan. I wonder how the world economy would bounce back from that.
Seriously, just cut out this cancer already. You can't reason with them. We gave them food, now they want to fire missiles to research sea life. The worst thing is that they are so fucking stupid, they probably thought the world was going to believe them.
Invade North-Korea. Put an end to this 1984 wanna-be state.
Politics are stupid. If the world really didn't want NK to have missle tech then NK would not have missle tech. Politics are why NK can and will get away with this. If say lets say Iran did somethin like this then 100000+ soliders would be inside that country tearing it apart. But because NK is near China and China likes having the crazy neighbor ally they could squish if he got out of hand NK can pretty much do whatever the hell they want
Nuclear Launch Detected! On a more serious note, NK need to stop being stubborn and not cause unnecessary controversy. There's plenty of other ways of celebrating something.
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
If America had only bothered with itself, it would probably have nukes aimed at its major cities from both Cuba and Mexico. Isolationism isn't the key to prosperity and safety. There are people that want to murder you, regardless of what you do
As for this, invade North-Korea.
China should join with America in an invasion of North-Korea. Allow China to monitor the district. Admit that North and South Korea will never again be one nation.
Right now we are just waiting for the day that they bombard South-Korea to ashes with artillery whilst they shoot Japan back into the stone age with nuclear missiles.
The complete destruction of South-Korea and Japan. I wonder how the world economy would bounce back from that.
Seriously, just cut out this cancer already. You can't reason with them. We gave them food, now they want to fire missiles to research sea life. The worst thing is that they are so fucking stupid, they probably thought the world was going to believe them.
Invade North-Korea. Put an end to this 1984 wanna-be state.
On March 30 2012 14:54 mizU wrote: You guys don't realize how serious the North Koreans get about KIS birthdays...
We do, they worship him as a veritable GOD. However, the celebration of a god is not exactly what I call a good excuse for potentially blowing up a country (at least, that is what is being argued by the US)
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
If America had only bothered with itself, it would probably have nukes aimed at its major cities from both Cuba and Mexico. Isolationism isn't the key to prosperity and safety. There are people that want to murder you, regardless of what you do
As for this, invade North-Korea.
China should join with America in an invasion of North-Korea. Allow China to monitor the district. Admit that North and South Korea will never again be one nation.
Right now we are just waiting for the day that they bombard South-Korea to ashes with artillery whilst they shoot Japan back into the stone age with nuclear missiles.
The complete destruction of South-Korea and Japan. I wonder how the world economy would bounce back from that.
Seriously, just cut out this cancer already. You can't reason with them. We gave them food, now they want to fire missiles to research sea life. The worst thing is that they are so fucking stupid, they probably thought the world was going to believe them.
Invade North-Korea. Put an end to this 1984 wanna-be state.
How's China any better than North Korea?
Maybe because of the metric tons of stuff that comes out of China?
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
If America had only bothered with itself, it would probably have nukes aimed at its major cities from both Cuba and Mexico. Isolationism isn't the key to prosperity and safety. There are people that want to murder you, regardless of what you do
As for this, invade North-Korea.
China should join with America in an invasion of North-Korea. Allow China to monitor the district. Admit that North and South Korea will never again be one nation.
Right now we are just waiting for the day that they bombard South-Korea to ashes with artillery whilst they shoot Japan back into the stone age with nuclear missiles.
The complete destruction of South-Korea and Japan. I wonder how the world economy would bounce back from that.
Seriously, just cut out this cancer already. You can't reason with them. We gave them food, now they want to fire missiles to research sea life. The worst thing is that they are so fucking stupid, they probably thought the world was going to believe them.
Invade North-Korea. Put an end to this 1984 wanna-be state.
How's China any better than North Korea?
Maybe because of the metric tons of stuff that comes out of China?
They're still a dictatorship with nuclear weapons. Someone mentioned earlier that NK could fire off nukes everywhere if their leader got constipated. Well guess what. China is a subject to the same phenomenon. If the next dictator of China turns out to be an asshole, we'll be in a hell of a lot worse shape than if NK tries something.
Edit. What I reacted to was the suggestion that China should take control of NK, while that IMO is not a good thing. I guess it gives us one less batshit guy who might blow up the world if he woke up in a bad mood, but still...
On March 30 2012 16:38 DannyJ wrote: Uh, I'm not quite sure I'd call China a dictatorship. Authoritarian regime, sure. Or perhaps a dictatorless dictatorship... hmm...
Working on your Space Program while your country starves?
LOLOL yeah right, nice try though Kim Jung noskill (fine that guy's dead but i don't know the new guy's name)
but on a srs note, this looks like a great way to launch multiple, very powerful if not nuclear bombs.. or at least test their abilities to do so in the futureO.o i'm scared for south korea and even myself as i live near LA. probably won't be anything serious though. the US etc says they will shoot down the missiles if they do launch, but all it takes is 1 missile to get through for a loooot of death.
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
If America had only bothered with itself, it would probably have nukes aimed at its major cities from both Cuba and Mexico. Isolationism isn't the key to prosperity and safety. There are people that want to murder you, regardless of what you do
As for this, invade North-Korea.
China should join with America in an invasion of North-Korea. Allow China to monitor the district. Admit that North and South Korea will never again be one nation.
Right now we are just waiting for the day that they bombard South-Korea to ashes with artillery whilst they shoot Japan back into the stone age with nuclear missiles.
The complete destruction of South-Korea and Japan. I wonder how the world economy would bounce back from that.
Seriously, just cut out this cancer already. You can't reason with them. We gave them food, now they want to fire missiles to research sea life. The worst thing is that they are so fucking stupid, they probably thought the world was going to believe them.
Invade North-Korea. Put an end to this 1984 wanna-be state.
How's China any better than North Korea?
Maybe because of the metric tons of stuff that comes out of China?
They're still a dictatorship with nuclear weapons. Someone mentioned earlier that NK could fire off nukes everywhere if their leader got constipated. Well guess what. China is a subject to the same phenomenon. If the next dictator of China turns out to be an asshole, we'll be in a hell of a lot worse shape than if NK tries something.
Edit. What I reacted to was the suggestion that China should take control of NK, while that IMO is not a good thing. I guess it gives us one less batshit guy who might blow up the world if he woke up in a bad mood, but still...
China is more subject to reason than North-Korea which is almost entirely removed from reality. Even its own leadership seems to be convinced by their propaganda.
China could one day get an insane leader (aka, the day the communists in the party get the upper-hand) but it isn't as likely. Their leaders are selected by a commission and the commission is the real powerhouse in the party.
If you pass power from father to son, you are prone to getting the occasional insane freak. Especially if you do it in a nation where everyone tells you you are the descendant of a god.
China, at the current state, is better because they are far less likely to get an insane leader. Their commission is more centrist then anything. They are realistic in their aspirations.
Sure, China is a totalitarian dictatorship, but tell me, where do the North-Koreans fit better?
In a free democratic society, or a totalitarian dictatorship?
I like to believe that all humans deserve a democracy, but the North-Korean population will need several generations before they can recover from the damage done to their psyche by decades of isolation and propaganda brainwashing.
Dumping them in China seems more reasonable than throwing them into South-Korea. Imagine if someone started a Kim-Jong political party. They would earn a landslide victory by winning votes from the brainwashed North-Koreans. They belong more to China than they do South-Korea.
Assuming the North Korean leadership aren't batshit insane, why would they announce the launch date, which is still 2 weeks away? What is more likely in this case? Nuclear skirmish or saber-rattling? They probably want more stuff and they're throwing a tantrum, like they've always done, to get it.
On March 30 2012 16:38 DannyJ wrote: Uh, I'm not quite sure I'd call China a dictatorship. Authoritarian regime, sure. Or perhaps a dictatorless dictatorship... hmm...
Hu Jintao is the current dictator isn't he?
Hes the nations president but that doesn't come with as much power as you'd think. The country is run by the Politburo Standing Committee. Jintao is the leader of this committee. The communist party of china elects these guys into the committee and they make the choices that effect the nation. Screw up and its just as easy to be removed as it is to be implanted.
So they are sending a 'satellite missile' into outer space for a peace and research possibilities? Where have I heard that before?
Best possible outcome would be Japan knocking out the missile, and then having NK be stupid enough to re-aim the artillery to Japan.
To agree with Zalz, China is far more likely to be able to handle the economic hit when torrents of nigh skill-less underfed people are flooded into their country than South Korea. Plus they are far more likely to atleast respond to diplomacy rather than the seemingly random dice that the DPRK regime seems to lob with every step they make.
On March 30 2012 15:05 Kyhol wrote: Good for them... As long as it isn't a threat.
i think a rogue military nation testing weapons of mass destruction is a pretty big threat.
ok, but why is the US always stuck dealing with this shit? other countries like china/russia seem to just sit back and relax and develop. If US was passive like them and focused on taking care of itself it'd be in much better shape
If America had only bothered with itself, it would probably have nukes aimed at its major cities from both Cuba and Mexico. Isolationism isn't the key to prosperity and safety. There are people that want to murder you, regardless of what you do
As for this, invade North-Korea.
China should join with America in an invasion of North-Korea. Allow China to monitor the district. Admit that North and South Korea will never again be one nation.
Right now we are just waiting for the day that they bombard South-Korea to ashes with artillery whilst they shoot Japan back into the stone age with nuclear missiles.
The complete destruction of South-Korea and Japan. I wonder how the world economy would bounce back from that.
Seriously, just cut out this cancer already. You can't reason with them. We gave them food, now they want to fire missiles to research sea life. The worst thing is that they are so fucking stupid, they probably thought the world was going to believe them.
Invade North-Korea. Put an end to this 1984 wanna-be state.
How's China any better than North Korea?
Maybe because of the metric tons of stuff that comes out of China?
They're still a dictatorship with nuclear weapons. Someone mentioned earlier that NK could fire off nukes everywhere if their leader got constipated. Well guess what. China is a subject to the same phenomenon. If the next dictator of China turns out to be an asshole, we'll be in a hell of a lot worse shape than if NK tries something.
Edit. What I reacted to was the suggestion that China should take control of NK, while that IMO is not a good thing. I guess it gives us one less batshit guy who might blow up the world if he woke up in a bad mood, but still...
China is more subject to reason than North-Korea which is almost entirely removed from reality. Even its own leadership seems to be convinced by their propaganda.
China could one day get an insane leader (aka, the day the communists in the party get the upper-hand) but it isn't as likely. Their leaders are selected by a commission and the commission is the real powerhouse in the party.
If you pass power from father to son, you are prone to getting the occasional insane freak. Especially if you do it in a nation where everyone tells you you are the descendant of a god.
China, at the current state, is better because they are far less likely to get an insane leader. Their commission is more centrist then anything. They are realistic in their aspirations.
Sure, China is a totalitarian dictatorship, but tell me, where do the North-Koreans fit better?
In a free democratic society, or a totalitarian dictatorship?
I like to believe that all humans deserve a democracy, but the North-Korean population will need several generations before they can recover from the damage done to their psyche by decades of isolation and propaganda brainwashing.
Dumping them in China seems more reasonable than throwing them into South-Korea. Imagine if someone started a Kim-Jong political party. They would earn a landslide victory by winning votes from the brainwashed North-Koreans. They belong more to China than they do South-Korea.
Yeah that's a fair point. They'd probably still be treated as shit by the Chinese (see Tibet), but it's probably still better than whatever life they have in NK.
On March 30 2012 16:43 TOloseGT wrote: Dictator is too harsh. Hu Jintao has to step down this year as General Secretary. Everyone already knows who the next one will be anyway.
NK is disgusting, most of the population live in poverty, I'd be in support of a US/western invasion or whatever, even shitty our democracy is better than what they have now
On March 30 2012 17:06 mememolly wrote: NK is disgusting, most of the population live in poverty, I'd be in support of a US/western invasion or whatever, even shitty our democracy is better than what they have now
Who will take care of the millions of North Korean refugees? China certainly doesn't want that responsibility.
On March 30 2012 17:06 mememolly wrote: NK is disgusting, most of the population live in poverty, I'd be in support of a US/western invasion or whatever, even shitty our democracy is better than what they have now
Who will take care of the millions of North Korean refugees? China certainly doesn't want that responsibility.
Which is why you should offer China the authority to monitor the North-Korean region after invasion.
That would give them the peace of mind that their southern regions wouldn't be invaded by millions of economic refugees that are willing to work in even worse conditions than the average Chinese citizen.
China doesn't like North-Korea, but they feel that they can't diffuse the situation without suffering economic damage. And the economy is everything to China.
On March 30 2012 14:28 Probulous wrote: "Why is China silent on this?"
Cause they like having NK on their border. They don't want US soldiers any closer than they are and so support NK despite the crazy.
The worst part about this is that NK is using its starving population for extortion. Give us aid or they die, oh and never mind the rocket, it's an illusion cause by moonlight refracting through swamp gas >_>
My opinion is that China secretly encourages and backs any North Korean efforts.
Is anyone surprised that this happens just in time when Western media is starting to focus on China.
Even in the event of a war, the impact on China will be minimal at best, don't tell me that China with its huge GDP can't support refugees, they give African dictators more money than they will ever spend on building refugee camps.
On March 30 2012 14:28 Probulous wrote: "Why is China silent on this?"
Cause they like having NK on their border. They don't want US soldiers any closer than they are and so support NK despite the crazy.
The worst part about this is that NK is using its starving population for extortion. Give us aid or they die, oh and never mind the rocket, it's an illusion cause by moonlight refracting through swamp gas >_>
My opinion is that China secretly encourages and backs any North Korean efforts.
Is everyone surprised that this happens just in time when Western media is starting to focus on China.
The wikileak documents show a very different story.
China does not like North-Korea, not even as a buffer state between them and South-Korea.
It's not about who likes who on this scale. Nations don't have to like each other, they are more interested in who is more useful to one another. I have no doubt that a lot of Chinese hates Kim's guts but that doesn't stop North Korean being a very effective political pawn.
China spend thousands of lives in the last war and countless millions in funds and resources to support the regime, I doubt that can happen without some sort of exchange in return. North Korean is broke, so the only thing they have to offer is political in nature. They can get away a lot of stuff that China can't because China is immersed in global commerce.
Of course, China will never come out and support North Korea, that will piss off the Western world which China relies on to grow their GDP.
On March 30 2012 15:29 Phony wrote: Nukes for NK are like boobs for sluty girls. If they got em they want to show it to every one, just to inform ppl. Or its just China's provokation to start a global conflict. O_O
China only puts up with NK because they act as a buffer, China actually likes sitting back and getting rich. China does not want a major war, they know they can not beat the US in a war outside of China, what they dont want most of all is millions of north korean refugees running into China. China has been position themselves further away from NK recently but doesnt want to lose them as a buffer / have to worry about them being a target. There is no gain for China to start a war, North Korea on the other hand doesnt need to have a reason. They usually pull something like this and demand food, which is then given, but they already met with that demand and this is just more bi-polar behavior from the countries leadership.
As for china in africa, that has major political gains. They are trading infrastructure for mineral and oil rights which China needs to grow and get away from a Western driven economy. China and the US are dependent on each other for a lot of things, war helps neither of them.
On March 30 2012 17:39 haduken wrote: It's not about who likes who on this scale. Nations don't have to like each other, they are more interested in who is more useful to one another. I have no doubt that a lot of Chinese hates Kim's guts but that doesn't stop North Korean being a very effective political pawn when they need them to be one.
China spend thousands of lives and countless millions in funds and resources to support the regime, I doubt that can happen without some sort of exchange in return. North Korean is broke, so the only thing they have to offer is political in nature.
The exchange is that they don't fall apart. The exchange is that North-Korean remains strong enough to keep its own population caged.
If all those millions spill into the southern regions of China, it is a disaster. These people will either take Chinese jobs, become criminals, or be drains on society.
The Chinese government wants to keep its growth numbers above 8%, widely considered the baseline growth numbers that China needs to avoid social unrest.
If you get a sudden influx of millions of people into the economic heart of your nation, that isn't going to do a lot of good in terms of growth numbers.
Yes, China has a billion people living in it, and it is a very big country, but the part of China where the economy happens, isn't that big. All those North-Koreans would throw a serious wrench in the works.
Any invasion of North-Korea should happen with the promise that China gets to administer the region. They just want to protect their economic interests. If they can keep the North-Koreans in North-Korea, they will be perfectly happy.
China doesn't want a buffer state. Even if they did, North-Korea is a horrible buffer state, they never listen, they just do whatever they feel like. They would love a giant Korea that was like South-Korea, ready to buy a ton of stuff from them. Hell, with a land route their business relations would grow even more.
One Korea, build like South-Korea, would be an incredible economic boon.
North-Korea is the retarded neighbour that can't relied upon. And yes, even China has to fear North-Korean nukes. They just aren't reliable.
Zalz outlined a lot of the reasons, but to explain more is to highlight that primary considerations between China and North Korea is that China's a much more bankable "Rational Actor" (Ie, concerned primarily with their survival and secondly with securing their own personal power), than North Korea could ever hope to be.
Many Chinese Government actions (including privatization of the 1990s, and foreign policy, but also smaller-scale beuracratic reform, If you are curious try looking through news media like Time Magazine, Economist -Alternatively try reading through some Journals on this topic, maybe The International Review of Administrative Sciences) are very commonsense reforms which have entirely understandable meanings. The Chinese Government is aware of internal structural problems such as the use of Stimulus funds, the growing Migrant Labour Population, the need for allowing bureaucratic differentiation in administration of localities economically, etc etc. It is using a lower-key approach to the acquisition of resources through both investment in 'client' nations and diplomatic/military pressure and the same goes with Government-Backed/Owned Chinese companies to purchase significant technological and corporate assets in the economic boom + downturn over the last 15 years. Observers from both in and outside the Chinese government have written reams about these policies, their implementations and for the most part, we understand the means and motives behind them. These are logical, sound decisions based on their internal logic.
Nobody can claim to have that kind of clarity into the rationale behind what North Korea does. We understand that China for now desires stability in this region, as well as the value of NK by proxy. Because of the very real possibility that the destabilization caused by North Korea's fall will pose huge challenges for the Chinese Government, NK existing is a far better deal. However, even the Chinese government doesn't have limitless patience.
Now I'm not saying that the Chinese Government are the good guys, or that there isn't legitimate and significant moral, ethical and global/financial security questions (alongside a ton of other things) to ask about the decisions of the Chinese Government, depending your perspective. However, nobody can deny they are a rationally acting government, and a fairly solid hegemony about following them through (for evidence look no further than the removal of Bo Xilai - he was too exciting, his rise too rapid, challenging the the status quo). This means that China is far more reliable than NK in the conflict in the region - We understand why China does things, and we understand the politics and forces within the Chinese Government well enough to know that we can deal with them.
edit.
I just have to highlight how great the Un Fab Five title below is. Furthermore, Hadoken is right to talk more about the value of NK as a proxy.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
On March 30 2012 17:39 haduken wrote: It's not about who likes who on this scale. Nations don't have to like each other, they are more interested in who is more useful to one another. I have no doubt that a lot of Chinese hates Kim's guts but that doesn't stop North Korean being a very effective political pawn when they need them to be one.
China spend thousands of lives and countless millions in funds and resources to support the regime, I doubt that can happen without some sort of exchange in return. North Korean is broke, so the only thing they have to offer is political in nature.
The exchange is that they don't fall apart. The exchange is that North-Korean remains strong enough to keep its own population caged.
If all those millions spill into the southern regions of China, it is a disaster. These people will either take Chinese jobs, become criminals, or be drains on society.
The Chinese government wants to keep its growth numbers above 8%, widely considered the baseline growth numbers that China needs to avoid social unrest.
If you get a sudden influx of millions of people into the economic heart of your nation, that isn't going to do a lot of good in terms of growth numbers.
Yes, China has a billion people living in it, and it is a very big country, but the part of China where the economy happens, isn't that big. All those North-Koreans would throw a serious wrench in the works.
Any invasion of North-Korea should happen with the promise that China gets to administer the region. They just want to protect their economic interests. If they can keep the North-Koreans in North-Korea, they will be perfectly happy.
China doesn't want a buffer state. Even if they did, North-Korea is a horrible buffer state, they never listen, they just do whatever they feel like. They would love a giant Korea that was like South-Korea, ready to buy a ton of stuff from them. Hell, with a land route their business relations would grow even more.
One Korea, build like South-Korea, would be an incredible economic boon.
North-Korea is the retarded neighbour that can't relied upon. And yes, even China has to fear North-Korean nukes. They just aren't reliable.
Now you are just making assumptions. I for one do not believe that China is content to just keep NK from falling apart.
North Korea is in fact very useful for Chinese ambitions, it is a card that China can play and West can not attack directly without de-stabilising the entire east Asia.
In the event of war, North Korean refugees will never gain access to south China, they will be contained in Manchuria, very likely in the Korean autonomous regions like Yanbian.
The amount China has to spend to keep them there will be negligible in the grand scheme. South Koreans will probably pay as they are morally obliged to feed their own people.
It is grossly dangerous to conclude that Chinese concerns is solely of economical reasons. Two Chinese dynasties fall apart when losing control in Korean affairs, the current regime is not about to make the same mistake again. A unified Korean peninsula that is not aligned with China would be unacceptable to China.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
Thanks. You make me play about one more game SC2 today because I don't need to write down what you wrote Yea it sucks. Yea it sucks even harder for the people who maybe suffer from the outcome. But seriously NK is down broke and done. Considering it a direct threat, maybe for SK or Japan. But not the world. Tho the political dance happening around it sure is interesting and worth following.
Btw really really like how you put that part: "Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules" So well written ^^
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I agree with almost everything you said, but the last part, which is still true btw. But I worry about NK because of the threat it poses to SK (and maybe Japan and other neighbours).
Funny thing is, that North Korean media reported this as the launch of "friendly rockets" - That made me lol.. Obviously something was lost in translation or something.. Friendly rockets, hooo!
I can't believe some nation hasn't just nuked their little fucking Pyongyang capitol yet. If not for the repressed citizens who lived there, international organizations would probably just pat anyone on the back who decided to do so. North Korea is literally the internet troll of the world, everyone just wants their shitty government gone.
.. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
On March 30 2012 19:08 DwD wrote: .. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
On March 30 2012 19:08 DwD wrote: .. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
Well, iirc, there is a restriction for all other countries that dont have nuclear weapons currently, to have up to only a certain amount of uranium such that they can't create a nuclear weapon, so i don't think japan, south korea etc would bother to develop intercontinental missile delivery, unless there are other uses for it.
On March 30 2012 19:08 DwD wrote: .. What am I missing here on didn't people read? It's a satellite... why shouldn't they be allowed to have their own satellites? Unless you can prove it's meant for other things than what they say you got no case to object.
Seriously? You seriously think NK is interested in shooting up some satellites to get satellite radio or something?
This reminds me of Mobutu Sese Seko's short lived Zairian space program. They also attempted to launch a satellite, however all they really managed to accomplish was creating a pretty cool fireball when the rocket's guidence system failed and it slammed into the jungle. Good times.
Every state has the right to launch civil space projects. They have informed the UN with all the necessary data, the launch is fully compliant with international rules.
And in some years, you will be happy if there is one country left with the technology to launch communication satellites without build-in censorship from the RIAA ACTA SOPA.
For any of you who think N.Korea is actually some place filled with a huge army you should be afraid of. Then I suggest you watch The Vice Guide To Travel-N.Korea
They are one of the few people to get into N.Korea with cameras and make a documentary.
With that said, most people in n.korea are malnurished and starving. They even eat shoes at some points, therefore tbh I'm not physically afraid of there army at all. Secondly, they have little - zero energy. Large portions of the country are just simply not powered, and even the parts that are aren't stable and surge/shut down all the time. I doubt they have even enough energy to launch this rocket properly. We shouldn't be worrying about N.Korea at all to be honest, they can't do anything to anyone realistically.
On March 31 2012 00:49 Arkless wrote: For any of you who think N.Korea is actually some place filled with a huge army you should be afraid of. Then I suggest you watch The Vice Guide To Travel-N.Korea
They are one of the few people to get into N.Korea with cameras and make a documentary.
With that said, most people in n.korea are malnurished and starving. They even eat shoes at some points, therefore tbh I'm not physically afraid of there army at all. Secondly, they have little - zero energy. Large portions of the country are just simply not powered, and even the parts that are aren't stable and surge/shut down all the time. I doubt they have even enough energy to launch this rocket properly. We shouldn't be worrying about N.Korea at all to be honest, they can't do anything to anyone realistically.
Yes, it is well known that:
North Koreans are underfed, even their troops are shorter than their souther cousins by a good deal.
North Korea can't even power its capitol around the clock.
North Korea mostly had cold war weaponry, hand outs from the USSR.
But none of it matters.
You don't need to be healthy or strong to fire an artillery piece, and cold war shells can still kill people.
Seoul is within striking range of North-Korean artillery. All they need to do is fire their guns and Seoul and its inhabitants are no more.
Can they win the war? No. Can they turn South-Korea and Japan into 3rd world countries before they are defeated? Yes.
On March 31 2012 00:49 Arkless wrote: For any of you who think N.Korea is actually some place filled with a huge army you should be afraid of. Then I suggest you watch The Vice Guide To Travel-N.Korea
They are one of the few people to get into N.Korea with cameras and make a documentary.
With that said, most people in n.korea are malnurished and starving. They even eat shoes at some points, therefore tbh I'm not physically afraid of there army at all. Secondly, they have little - zero energy. Large portions of the country are just simply not powered, and even the parts that are aren't stable and surge/shut down all the time. I doubt they have even enough energy to launch this rocket properly. We shouldn't be worrying about N.Korea at all to be honest, they can't do anything to anyone realistically.
You are aware they have nuclear weapons?
While most of N. Korea's traditional army is drastically antequated, probably lacking in general supplies and ammunition, and in a traditional war would likely be wiped out by the S Korean armed forces very very quickly; it would only take one small nuclear weapon to completely devastate Seoul and therefore the entire country. So, yes, we should really really be worried about N Korea.
-edit:
On March 31 2012 00:56 zalz wrote: Seoul is within striking range of North-Korean artillery. All they need to do is fire their guns and Seoul and its inhabitants are no more.
Can they win the war? No. Can they turn South-Korea and Japan into 3rd world countries before they are defeated? Yes.
I disagree with this completely. US has laser weapons that can take out artilery shells, and the S Korean and US air forces would be able to take out these artillery positions with extreme speed. They would be able to do damaged before this, but I have my doubts about how much. I also have my doubts about how much ammunition they actually have, and how many of the old Russian shells are still active.
I disagree with this completely. US has laser weapons that can take out artilery shells, and the S Korean and US air forces would be able to take out these artillery positions with extreme speed. They would be able to do damaged before this, but I have my doubts about how much. I also have my doubts about how much ammunition they actually have, and how many of the old Russian shells are still active.
You are talking about a scenario in which America strikes first.
If North-Korea strikes first, Seoul is off the map, and so are most of Japan's major cities.
On a serious note, i don't understand whats the fixation with north korea always doing stuff like this THEY KNOW will make the other countries angry.
I doubt they'd nuke SK would be pretty silly since they'd be so close to all the radiation and shit
The size of nuclear weapons that North Korea has probably wouldn't spread radiation that far. Especially if the detonation was in the atmosphere above the city. Actually they wouldn't even be able to destroy Seoul completely, but vaporize a 3 mile diameter section of the city and spread fallout over a 10 square miles and S Korea would be in a lot of trouble. Though it would almost certainly mean a US and S Korean invation of North; if the DPRK government felt their regime was in danger of collaps I could see them attempting to do this. And if the missle was launched from near the border, there's no way there would be sufficient time to intercept it.
On March 31 2012 00:49 Arkless wrote: For any of you who think N.Korea is actually some place filled with a huge army you should be afraid of. Then I suggest you watch The Vice Guide To Travel-N.Korea
They are one of the few people to get into N.Korea with cameras and make a documentary.
With that said, most people in n.korea are malnurished and starving. They even eat shoes at some points, therefore tbh I'm not physically afraid of there army at all. Secondly, they have little - zero energy. Large portions of the country are just simply not powered, and even the parts that are aren't stable and surge/shut down all the time. I doubt they have even enough energy to launch this rocket properly. We shouldn't be worrying about N.Korea at all to be honest, they can't do anything to anyone realistically.
There is a huge problem with not being afraid of them based off that one documentary. What you got to see in that was poor neighbourhoods and civilian areas. Why do you think they have no power or food for their public? Answer its all going to the military. While the people are indeed poor, without electricity and malnourished.... their army is decently well armed and decently well fed. Yea they don't have the best army out there, but to dismiss them because you saw a documentary showing poor areas of the country is ridiculous...
I disagree with this completely. US has laser weapons that can take out artilery shells, and the S Korean and US air forces would be able to take out these artillery positions with extreme speed. They would be able to do damaged before this, but I have my doubts about how much. I also have my doubts about how much ammunition they actually have, and how many of the old Russian shells are still active.
You are talking about a scenario in which America strikes first.
If North-Korea strikes first, Seoul is off the map, and so are most of Japan's major cities.
No, I'm not. In a situation without the use of nuclear weapons I think damage would be minimal. US could easily intercept any missles headed to Japan with Patriot missle batteries.
Take a look on wikipedia at the information available on what the North Korean military is actually armed with. Their navy and air force is virtually non existant. Of the aircraft they have, most are inoperable due to lack of parts and the rest are very outdated Russian models. Due to lack of maintenance and fuel, their pilots are also grossly undertrained. Their airforce would be eliminated very quickly. SAMs would also be useless if the US is employing F-22s in the region.
As we saw during desert storm, the US air force can eliminate large numbers of enemy artillery very quickly, the S Korean airforce also has very good pilots and are flying F-15 eagles among other advanced aircraft. My guess is that S Korea and the US keep very very very close tabs on the locations of DPRK artillery locations. In the event of an attack my guess is most would be completely destroyed within 15 minutes if not sooner. US could also launch large numbers of Tomahawk cruise missles remotely to take out these locations as well.
You also need to take into account the quality of these artillery pieces, little is known about them other than the fact that many are old Russian equipment while others are constructed in North Korea. Call me a pessimist but I wouldn't put much faith in North Korean engineers, and the training of these artillery operators in terms of accuracy and speed.
Could a North Korean attack damage Seoul? Absolutely, but my guess is that the death toll would be 500 or less. Their nuclear weapons are the only serious threat they pose to the region.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
^This. Every time a thread on TL has "NK" or "North Korea" in its title, we get shit like this. It's getting silly, tbh.
I disagree with this completely. US has laser weapons that can take out artilery shells, and the S Korean and US air forces would be able to take out these artillery positions with extreme speed. They would be able to do damaged before this, but I have my doubts about how much. I also have my doubts about how much ammunition they actually have, and how many of the old Russian shells are still active.
You are talking about a scenario in which America strikes first.
If North-Korea strikes first, Seoul is off the map, and so are most of Japan's major cities.
No, I'm not. In a situation without the use of nuclear weapons I think damage would be minimal. US could easily intercept any missles headed to Japan with Patriot missle batteries.
Take a look on wikipedia at the information available on what the North Korean military is actually armed with. Their navy and air force is virtually non existant. Of the aircraft they have, most are inoperable due to lack of parts and the rest are very outdated Russian models. Due to lack of maintenance and fuel, their pilots are also grossly undertrained. As we saw during desert storm, the US air force can eliminate large numbers of enemy artillery very quickly, the S Korean airforce also has very good pilots and are flying F-15 eagles among other advanced air craft.
My guess is that S Korea and the US keep very very very close tabs on the locations of DPRK artillery locations. In the event of an attack my guess is most would be completely destroyed within 15 minutes if not sooner. US could also launch large numbers of Tomahawk cruise missles remotely to take out these locations as well.
You also need to take into account the quality of these artillery pieces, little is known about them other than the fact that many are old Russian equipment while others are constructed in North Korea. Call me a pessimist but I wouldn't put much faith in North Korean engineers, and the training of these artillery operators in terms of accuracy and speed.
Could a North Korean attack damage Seoul? Absolutely, but my guess is that the death toll would be 500 or less. Their nuclear weapons are the only serious threat they pose to the region.
Why would you assume they won't use nuclear weapons? If they strike first, they will do so knowing full well that they will be wiped out by the rest of the world. Why would they then hold back and not use nukes?
it s just a rocket, it s not even a ballistic missile (a rocket is way easier to build, and to guide, a missile needs extremly precise trajectory control, especially during the re-entry process).
I dont think what they do is crazy. I think they are stuck in this cycle since the end of the cold war. They can't do anything but keep bluffing periodically to get some form of aid. If they really hand over their weapons, they will end up having as much influence as swaziland (taken randomly, you can change it with any other small country).
It s sad but it's the only way they have to remain somewhat independent.
Although, they just had a change in their leadership, and they need to divert local attention away from internal issues. Showing how the world reacts to their every move maintains the illusion that they are a world superpower (from their citizens' point of view I mean).
On March 31 2012 00:49 Arkless wrote: For any of you who think N.Korea is actually some place filled with a huge army you should be afraid of. Then I suggest you watch The Vice Guide To Travel-N.Korea
They are one of the few people to get into N.Korea with cameras and make a documentary.
With that said, most people in n.korea are malnurished and starving. They even eat shoes at some points, therefore tbh I'm not physically afraid of there army at all. Secondly, they have little - zero energy. Large portions of the country are just simply not powered, and even the parts that are aren't stable and surge/shut down all the time. I doubt they have even enough energy to launch this rocket properly. We shouldn't be worrying about N.Korea at all to be honest, they can't do anything to anyone realistically.
There is a huge problem with not being afraid of them based off that one documentary. What you got to see in that was poor neighbourhoods and civilian areas. Why do you think they have no power or food for their public? Answer its all going to the military. While the people are indeed poor, without electricity and malnourished.... their army is decently well armed and decently well fed. Yea they don't have the best army out there, but to dismiss them because you saw a documentary showing poor areas of the country is ridiculous...
For any of you who think the United States of America is a country with a huge, technologically advanced army that you should be afraid of, I suggest watching Trouble the Water.
They won 11 independent documentary awards, including best documentary at 2008 Sundance Film Festival.
We shouldn't be worrying about America and their influence in the world to be honest, they can't do anything to anyone realistically.
On March 31 2012 01:16 Thenerf wrote: Wow a rocket.......call me when they do something worth worrying about.
So in your opinion, a totalitarian regime with nuclear warheads at their disposal attempting to develop delivery systems is not that big of a deal?
They're not stupid enough to fire it into any country. It's plain gesturing and deep down inside everyone knows it. They'll just continue to receive food aid to keep the regime from crumbling from within. This is of course, assuming that the son isn't half the nutjob which his father actually was.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I thought this was supposed to be an informed post? You seem to have missed the entire point of the NK situation. We all know that the US can easily wipe out NK, that is common sense. But the fact still stands that this isn't about the safety of the US, rather it primarily extends to SK and the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula. A conflict in Korea might be laughable for the US, but it sure as hell wont be for the 50% of SK's population that resides in Seoul. Furthermore, the conflict will raise serious ramifications and repercussions of the future political landscape of the peninsula with the potential for Unification. US and China will be scrambling to fill the political vacuum if NK ever goes down.....increasing the tensions between the two superpowers and potentially creating conflict.
On March 31 2012 01:16 Thenerf wrote: Wow a rocket.......call me when they do something worth worrying about.
So in your opinion, a totalitarian regime with nuclear warheads at their disposal attempting to develop delivery systems is not that big of a deal?
Who's to decide who's allowed to have functional nuclear weapons or not? Was quite a long time since NK took ACTUAL military action towards anyone, whereas several other countries which have nuclear weapons are involved in wars, including the only country who has actually used nuclear weapons in wars( and against civilians).
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
^This. Every time a thread on TL has "NK" or "North Korea" in its title, we get shit like this. It's getting silly, tbh.
Yep. People are so paranoid and ignorant about this whole thing. And for some reason seem to think they NK are going to nuke things just because they have the technology and not care about retals. Wonder if people are believing what they are posting here.
North Korea isn't a threat to the rest of the world, that's not where the problem lies, but what they have done to their own ppl over the last 60 years is inexcusable. It's not right that a country which is going through such a crisis and is so underdeveloped invest so much into their army, nonetheless a weapons program. It's kind of like a large and poor family where the father is spending all his money on liquor and hookers, while his children are starving. NK's priorities are just so frikn wrong and unethical, and that's why most ppl are so fired up about them.
World War Three is due to start on my birthday? What a wonderful, considerate present Mr Jong-Un.
Seriously though I have no idea why they would do this, even if they claim it's a simple satellite test it breaks the treaty that they JUST SIGNED to get food aid for their starving people.
On March 31 2012 01:16 Thenerf wrote: Wow a rocket.......call me when they do something worth worrying about.
So in your opinion, a totalitarian regime with nuclear warheads at their disposal attempting to develop delivery systems is not that big of a deal?
Who's to decide who's allowed to have functional nuclear weapons or not? Was quite a long time since NK took ACTUAL military action towards anyone, whereas several other countries which have nuclear weapons are involved in wars, including the only country who has actually used nuclear weapons in wars( and against civilians).
On March 31 2012 01:25 Xpace wrote:
On March 30 2012 18:02 mensrea wrote:
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
^This. Every time a thread on TL has "NK" or "North Korea" in its title, we get shit like this. It's getting silly, tbh.
Yep. People are so paranoid and ignorant about this whole thing. And for some reason seem to think they NK are going to nuke things just because they have the technology and not care about retals. Wonder if people are believing what they are posting here.
North Korea isn't a threat to the rest of the world, that's not where the problem lies, but what they have done to their own ppl over the last 60 years is inexcusable. It's not right that a country which is going through such a crisis and is so underdeveloped invest so much into their army, nonetheless a weapons program. It's kind of like a large and poor family where the father is spending all his money on liquor and hookers, while his children are starving. NK's priorities are just so frikn wrong and unethical, and that's why most ppl are so fired up about them.
So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
Why does everything always come back to the US with angst filled nerds? He didn't say they are the only one prioritizing, he said the proportion of military spending compared to their domestic issues is laughably and intolerably high, which is true.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I thought this was supposed to be an informed post? You seem to have missed the entire point of the NK situation. We all know that the US can easily wipe out NK, that is common sense. But the fact still stands that this isn't about the safety of the US, rather it primarily extends to SK and the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula. A conflict in Korea might be laughable for the US, but it sure as hell wont be for the 50% of SK's population that resides in Seoul. Furthermore, the conflict will raise serious ramifications and repercussions of the future political landscape of the peninsula with the potential for Unification. US and China will be scrambling to fill the political vacuum if NK ever goes down.....increasing the tensions between the two superpowers and potentially creating conflict.
Not sure what's up with your slight at Sweden.
Your whole post is a non sequitur.
It's almost noon which means it's getting close to nap time for you. Don't forget to grab the pacifier on your way to bed.
i would intercept the missile right when it lift offs so it blows up in the launch pad. And I would tell the public that N.Korea failed once again. Then invade countries who think otherwise
So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
Wrong.
You can flee from Africa. You can only flee from North-Korea if you are fine with letting your family be executed for your crimes.
You know what they do to your children? Work camps.
You know what will happen to your grandchildren that get born in these camps? Work camps.
Yes, that is right. There are children in North-Korean work camps that are being punished for the 'crimes' that the generation before them did.
An entire people are being broken by the North-Korean government. North-Korea is the worst place on earth. A slave from birth till death, and everyone that doesn't march to the drum of the state will see their family be executed, imprisoned, or worked to death.
In Africa, you can trust your family. In North-Korea, your own brother could be the reason you get sent to a work camp.
Read some books on the Stasi to get an understanding of just how invasive the reach of the state can be, and how completly alien it is. You think you understand the horrors, but all your posts are proof of the opposite.
You don't wake up every morning, making sure that the picture of the dear leader is perfectly straight, because otherwise you just committed a crime that can see your entire life destroyed.
Meanwhile, the most remote parts of North-Korea are in a complete isolation. What few images we get are from Pyongyang. Outside of the capitol, people are starving to death, resorting to eating dirt, grass or each other.
And if you complain? If you don't fall to your knees and thank the dear leader that you are alive and starving? Execution. Every day you are told to worship the man that is the cause of all your suffering, and failure to do so will mean the end of your life. But you can't even throw yourself on the sword, because the state will murder your friends and family.
You can't even gracefully reject this sickening world that is being offered.
There is worse? Such a statement can only come from a lack of knowledge.
On March 31 2012 02:04 zeru wrote: So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
No. Can you name a country in Africa where all of these things are true: They have no freedom whatsoever. They have locked up the entire population as if they were criminals, and shoots down anyone who tries to move across the border. That tortures, executes and enslaves ppl who complain about how the country is being run. That forcefully aborts fetuses that were conceived outside of the North Korean border (because of the chance that the baby isn't purebred Korean). And btw, most of these babies were conceived after someone helped the north korean woman pass the border and then sold her to a chinese farmer. A country where you get punished for what your relatives have done and where some children are born into slave-labor camps (Shin Dong Hyuk). A country where they do human-experiments, similar to what was going on in Nazi-Germany. (There are a few North Korean defector ex-guards who have given detailed descriptions over these things) As for the starvation, it's unclear how bad it is, but they are definately among the worst in the world, and considering how organized the country is, there's no comparison for how terrible they're doing on the food front.
North Korea is today the worst hell-hole on earth, and that's a fact.
On March 31 2012 02:04 zeru wrote: So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
No. Can you name a country in Africa where all of these things are true: They have no freedom whatsoever. They have locked up the entire population as if they were criminals, and shoots down anyone who tries to move across the border. That tortures, executes and enslaves ppl who complain about how the country is being run. That forcefully aborts fetuses that were conceived outside of the North Korean border (because of the chance that the baby isn't purebred Korean). And btw, most of these babies were conceived after someone helped the north korean woman pass the border and then sold her to a chinese farmer. A country where you get punished for what your relatives have done and where some children are born into slave-labor camps (Shin Dong Hyuk). A country where they do human-experiments, similar to what was going on in Nazi-Germany. (There are a few North Korean defector ex-guards who have given detailed descriptions over these things) As for the starvation, it's unclear how bad it is, but they are definately among the worst in the world, and considering how organized the country is, there's no comparison for how terrible they're doing on the food front.
North Korea is today the worst hell-hole on earth, and that's a fact.
While I am certainly not an expert in the world's hell holes. I will say as an avid vice guide viewer that the NK episode was the most heartbreaking of the bunch for me.
I'm so unbelievably sad for all the NK citizens who don't even know what they are missing out on in life. The amount of brain washing in that country makes 1984 look like a utopia.
On the topic of a missile launch: Is this event at all different from the previous 3 tests they've done over the past decade? I guess I'm asking if their technology is advancing or are they just beating their chest. Either way, totally understand why the Korean Peninsula and their neighbors would be concerned.
On March 31 2012 01:16 Thenerf wrote: Wow a rocket.......call me when they do something worth worrying about.
So in your opinion, a totalitarian regime with nuclear warheads at their disposal attempting to develop delivery systems is not that big of a deal?
Who's to decide who's allowed to have functional nuclear weapons or not? Was quite a long time since NK took ACTUAL military action towards anyone, whereas several other countries which have nuclear weapons are involved in wars.
Uh yeah.. I think everyone should be concerned when any nation attempts to aquire nuclear arms and the capability to deliver them. I'm certainly not a big fan of USA "do as I say, not as I do" policy when it is in fact the only nation that has ever carried out nuclear attacks. Still, two wrongs don't make one right and for obvious reasons it is a more severe scenario when a totalitarian regime with a total lack of democratic process and a recent history of erratic and bizarre behaviors (only recently the shelling incident on SK territory) develops these technologies.
If you don't see how a person born into power in a desperate regime, that's currently at war, having the option of detonating nukes in some of the most populated places in the world at his own will is reason for concern, then I honestly think there's something wrong with you.
But in the end, all the world can do is impose sanctions that are ultimately ineffective for as long as China doesn't follow suite, and of course the real victims are the population of NK.
On March 31 2012 02:04 zeru wrote: So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
No. Can you name a country in Africa where all of these things are true: They have no freedom whatsoever. They have locked up the entire population as if they were criminals, and shoots down anyone who tries to move across the border. That tortures, executes and enslaves ppl who complain about how the country is being run. That forcefully aborts fetuses that were conceived outside of the North Korean border (because of the chance that the baby isn't purebred Korean). And btw, most of these babies were conceived after someone helped the north korean woman pass the border and then sold her to a chinese farmer. A country where you get punished for what your relatives have done and where some children are born into slave-labor camps (Shin Dong Hyuk). A country where they do human-experiments, similar to what was going on in Nazi-Germany. (There are a few North Korean defector ex-guards who have given detailed descriptions over these things) As for the starvation, it's unclear how bad it is, but they are definately among the worst in the world, and considering how organized the country is, there's no comparison for how terrible they're doing on the food front.
North Korea is today the worst hell-hole on earth, and that's a fact.
No it isn't.
What you've done is give a few examples of some terrible things that happen. Nothing like Rwanda is happening there, nothing like the Holocaust, things are bad, but NK is not "the worst hell-hole on earth". You think that it is because it's mysterious. Haiti is probably worse off than NK, as are a host of African countries. Look at these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
Space programs in those countries are very real things. The sad truth of life is that anything good can just as likely be turned into something very bad. Discrediting them, or space exploration as a whole, as it currently uses rocket propulsion in much of the world is a very dirty thing.
That being said, North Korea is probably just doing the same thing they've always been doing since as long as I can remember. Showing off their shiny missiles, their atomic weapons, and saying "You guys like Seoul right? Why not give us some food so we can just put these back into storage for a bit."
On March 31 2012 02:04 zeru wrote: So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
No. Can you name a country in Africa where all of these things are true: They have no freedom whatsoever. They have locked up the entire population as if they were criminals, and shoots down anyone who tries to move across the border. That tortures, executes and enslaves ppl who complain about how the country is being run. That forcefully aborts fetuses that were conceived outside of the North Korean border (because of the chance that the baby isn't purebred Korean). And btw, most of these babies were conceived after someone helped the north korean woman pass the border and then sold her to a chinese farmer. A country where you get punished for what your relatives have done and where some children are born into slave-labor camps (Shin Dong Hyuk). A country where they do human-experiments, similar to what was going on in Nazi-Germany. (There are a few North Korean defector ex-guards who have given detailed descriptions over these things) As for the starvation, it's unclear how bad it is, but they are definately among the worst in the world, and considering how organized the country is, there's no comparison for how terrible they're doing on the food front.
North Korea is today the worst hell-hole on earth, and that's a fact.
No it isn't.
What you've done is give a few examples of some terrible things that happen. Nothing like Rwanda is happening there, nothing like the Holocaust, things are bad, but NK is not "the worst hell-hole on earth". You think that it is because it's mysterious. Haiti is probably worse off than NK, as are a host of African countries. Look at these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine
North Korea's GDP/capita is dangerously low. South Korea is 15-20 times better, and there's no reason why North Korea shouldn't be close to that, especially considering how organized it is.
I can't imagine small time african governments organizing huge events like this:
The problem with most african countries is that they don't have any stability, but North Korea have that. Such a united country shouldn't be struggling this much.
No Rwanda/Holocaust? You're wrong. If your uncle does something stupid, you're punished as well, so they target certain ppl, just like in those examples, it's just that the ppl they target aren't as specifically defined, but it's still the same thing. Plus, in North Korea you get punished for just expressing your thoughts, so a large amounts of these ppl haven't even done anything wrong according to western values.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
Well, iirc, there is a restriction for all other countries that dont have nuclear weapons currently, to have up to only a certain amount of uranium such that they can't create a nuclear weapon, so i don't think japan, south korea etc would bother to develop intercontinental missile delivery, unless there are other uses for it.
I thought it was common knowledge that SK Japan and India had nukes? Israel too obviously, but since when have they cared about the UN...
Tokyo has upped the ante in a looming face-off over North Korea's planned rocket launch next month by vowing to shoot it down if it threatens Japanese territory.
Japan's cabinet issued the destroy order to the Minister of Defence, Naoki Tanaka, yesterday, giving him the green light to intercept the rocket "if necessary". Surface-to-air missiles have already been deployed in central Tokyo and southern Japan, near the missile's expected flight path.
The threat follows the release of private satellite photos apparently showing preparations for the launch at Tongchang-ri. The launch has been timed to coincide with the 100th anniversary of the birth of the North's founding father, Kim Il-sung, on 15 April, though it could come a few days before or after that.
Washington and its allies, including Japan, say the rocket launch is a test for long-range ballistic technology but Pyongyang insists it will put an observation satellite into space. The North's Central News Agency called the launch a "legitimate exercise" of its "inalienable sovereign right to peaceful exploration of outer space, universally shared by every member of the world".
On March 31 2012 02:04 zeru wrote: So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
No. Can you name a country in Africa where all of these things are true: They have no freedom whatsoever. They have locked up the entire population as if they were criminals, and shoots down anyone who tries to move across the border. That tortures, executes and enslaves ppl who complain about how the country is being run. That forcefully aborts fetuses that were conceived outside of the North Korean border (because of the chance that the baby isn't purebred Korean). And btw, most of these babies were conceived after someone helped the north korean woman pass the border and then sold her to a chinese farmer. A country where you get punished for what your relatives have done and where some children are born into slave-labor camps (Shin Dong Hyuk). A country where they do human-experiments, similar to what was going on in Nazi-Germany. (There are a few North Korean defector ex-guards who have given detailed descriptions over these things) As for the starvation, it's unclear how bad it is, but they are definately among the worst in the world, and considering how organized the country is, there's no comparison for how terrible they're doing on the food front.
North Korea is today the worst hell-hole on earth, and that's a fact.
No it isn't.
What you've done is give a few examples of some terrible things that happen. Nothing like Rwanda is happening there, nothing like the Holocaust, things are bad, but NK is not "the worst hell-hole on earth". You think that it is because it's mysterious. Haiti is probably worse off than NK, as are a host of African countries. Look at these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine
are you seriously about NK not being the worst ?
in nord korea they dont give ppl food , and in isolated village ppl become canibals for not dying . there is an documentary about NORTH KOREANS SELLING 3 YEARS OLD CHILDRENS TO LATER BE EATEN . Do you have canibalism in africa ? like canibalism to survive not as an alternative ?????
On March 31 2012 02:04 zeru wrote: So the US's priorities, and every other warring counties priorities are completely right, spending more money on warring for oil, than say education, healthcare, and similar more important things?
Saying they're the only ones not prioritizing correctly is beyond false. Sure NK is pretty damn bad, there are worse things going on in places like Africa.
No. Can you name a country in Africa where all of these things are true: They have no freedom whatsoever. They have locked up the entire population as if they were criminals, and shoots down anyone who tries to move across the border. That tortures, executes and enslaves ppl who complain about how the country is being run. That forcefully aborts fetuses that were conceived outside of the North Korean border (because of the chance that the baby isn't purebred Korean). And btw, most of these babies were conceived after someone helped the north korean woman pass the border and then sold her to a chinese farmer. A country where you get punished for what your relatives have done and where some children are born into slave-labor camps (Shin Dong Hyuk). A country where they do human-experiments, similar to what was going on in Nazi-Germany. (There are a few North Korean defector ex-guards who have given detailed descriptions over these things) As for the starvation, it's unclear how bad it is, but they are definately among the worst in the world, and considering how organized the country is, there's no comparison for how terrible they're doing on the food front.
North Korea is today the worst hell-hole on earth, and that's a fact.
No it isn't.
What you've done is give a few examples of some terrible things that happen. Nothing like Rwanda is happening there, nothing like the Holocaust, things are bad, but NK is not "the worst hell-hole on earth". You think that it is because it's mysterious. Haiti is probably worse off than NK, as are a host of African countries. Look at these links: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korean_famine
are you seriously about NK not being the worst ?
in nord korea they dont give ppl food , and in isolated village ppl become canibals for not dying . there is an documentary about NORTH KOREANS SELLING 3 YEARS OLD CHILDRENS TO LATER BE EATEN . Do you have canibalism in africa ? like canibalism to survive not as an alternative ?????
Idk if I would name it THE worst country...but it is pretty damn bad (unarguable). I wouldn't doubt if many other impoverished nations are resorting to cannibalism especially Africa.
on topic: Maybe the new NK leader thinks there is cake out in space? Or maybe more cake nearby?
edit: People seem to forget that there was no actual treaty signed. Technically speaking the Korea peninsula is still at war.
The US and it's allies could completely take over and destroy North Korea before their missle could even make it into orbit. I don't know why everyone is so scared of them.
Start peace talks, receive aid, resume aggressive posturing with missile tests, "vehement" opposition from U.N. with sanctions, N.K. maintains this position of "lunatic with a bomb" until it runs out of resources, rinse and repeat.
Getting quite old if you ask me. Until some method of demilitarizing airborne warheads exists, I don't see it ending anytime soon either..
On April 01 2012 04:18 Konaa wrote: The US and it's allies could completely take over and destroy North Korea before their missle could even make it into orbit. I don't know why everyone is so scared of them.
And while that's happening North Korea would deploy everything they have and completely obliterate South Korea.
lol I have a flight to South Korea on April 12th. My fucking boss better not cancel my vacation because of this shit. I already paid for my plane tickets...
On April 01 2012 04:19 SwizzY wrote: Start peace talks, receive aid, resume aggressive posturing with missile tests, "vehement" opposition from U.N. with sanctions, N.K. maintains this position of "lunatic with a bomb" until it runs out of resources, rinse and repeat.
Getting quite old if you ask me. Until some method of demilitarizing airborne warheads exists, I don't see it ending anytime soon either..
They didn't even receive their aid. They were just about to, but then they started this shit, and everyone threw the food into a river.
On April 01 2012 04:56 Silentness wrote: lol I have a flight to South Korea on April 12th. My fucking boss better not cancel my vacation because of this shit. I already paid for my plane tickets...
Keep it silent, shh.
How disheartening to know that at one point, I had hope for North Korea because of the food aid. Now in the next point they fuck it all up.
hmm..so if America, or South Korea or some other country is determined to shoot down this rocket as it goes into space, wouldn't that make North Korea more likely to take action as a form of "retribution" for what happened? Like trying to shoot down a satellite from the US or SK, which would inevitably escalate into a serious military confrontation? We know that North Korea is unstable...this good provoke them into a war.
At the same time I guess the logic here is, its a more favourable situation than potentially letting them acquire intercontinental ballistic missiles, which they can later arm with nuclear warheads to threaten the world with, right? I disagree. Even if they acquired that capability, I think the US and other neighbouring countries would have the capability to quash any ICBM launch attempts. Our technology is simply too advanced. Yes North Korea may remain a threat, but its better to try to negotiate with the Chinese and impose sanctions to promote peaceful change.
Invading North Korea should be a last resort. They may be dangerous, but their tech is pretty old. We need to avoid confrontation as long as possible, using peaceful methods to the best of our ability, in order to protect south korea - home of our beloved pro-gamers and casting archon - from any violent reprisal
NoKo Gonna cause ww3. But, I think North Korea doesn't have any allies here: they were given fair warning, and now they have to face the consequences of not listening. China won't side with them, They know that the country is in peril after Kim Jong Il's death. All we have to do is wait for SoKo to rickroll them out of there
On April 01 2012 05:43 BaconofWar wrote: NoKo Gonna cause ww3. But, I think North Korea doesn't have any allies here: they were given fair warning, and now they have to face the consequences of not listening. China won't side with them, They know that the country is in peril after Kim Jong Il's death. All we have to do is wait for SoKo to rickroll them out of there
How could they cause WWIII if they have no real allies?
Except China for the "we don't want no war because then we'll have to deal with millions of NK refugees".
I think NK just lets some political/military muscles play, their new president needs some sort of success or something the people can look forward. Nk know that other countries will get angry but they also know that they can´t do that much against it if they say its peaceful. Same situation was with iran blocking the "homs area", if the USA wanted they could have easily crushed them but ofc no one wants to risk war so they didn´t. I guess those regimes need - whatever the reason is - such moves.
On April 01 2012 04:12 heroyi wrote: edit: People seem to forget that there was no actual treaty signed. Technically speaking the Korea peninsula is still at war.
They should settle it in a BO7 of BW. South Korea would win either way, so they might as well avoid all the blood-shed. Just don't send Bisu.
lets think of it this way. what if our other countries comdemn us from testing our weapons and these countries are much more powerful than us. i know there's probably 1million better way to spend the money than this but these people are so isolated. Why are we so afriaid of a small missle when other countries have so much more than NK.
This isn't politically correct, but would it almost be a good thing for north Korea to make a mistake in which the consequences resulted in NATO, the us and other countries invading north Korea in order to over turn the regime?
In that case it would hopefully lead to the betterment of the people of north Korea in the long run. Would china and Russia actually dare support, thus causing ww3? Or stay out of it in order I preserve trade and future peace? China, technically could still remain allies with north Korea, but under difference pretenses ?
On April 01 2012 06:36 ranshaked wrote: This isn't politically correct, but would it almost be a good thing for north Korea to make a mistake in which the consequences resulted in NATO, the us and other countries invading north Korea in order to over turn the regime?
In that case it would hopefully lead to the betterment of the people of north Korea in the long run. Would china and Russia actually dare support, thus causing ww3? Or stay out of it in order I preserve trade and future peace? China, technically could still remain allies with north Korea, but under difference pretenses ?
On April 01 2012 06:36 ranshaked wrote: This isn't politically correct, but would it almost be a good thing for north Korea to make a mistake in which the consequences resulted in NATO, the us and other countries invading north Korea in order to over turn the regime?
In that case it would hopefully lead to the betterment of the people of north Korea in the long run. Would china and Russia actually dare support, thus causing ww3? Or stay out of it in order I preserve trade and future peace? China, technically could still remain allies with north Korea, but under difference pretenses ?
I would try to avoid ww3 no matter what... As Homer wisely said: Ahh, big deal. By the time Bart's 18 were gonna control the world. We're China, right?
On April 01 2012 06:36 ranshaked wrote: This isn't politically correct, but would it almost be a good thing for north Korea to make a mistake in which the consequences resulted in NATO, the us and other countries invading north Korea in order to over turn the regime?
In that case it would hopefully lead to the betterment of the people of north Korea in the long run. Would china and Russia actually dare support, thus causing ww3? Or stay out of it in order I preserve trade and future peace? China, technically could still remain allies with north Korea, but under difference pretenses ?
Another war to put the US in more debt.
SMART.
Stop putting a pricetag on human beings. Atleast the US get to use some of the 900$ billions they use on the military, and actually for a good cause.
On April 01 2012 06:36 ranshaked wrote: This isn't politically correct, but would it almost be a good thing for north Korea to make a mistake in which the consequences resulted in NATO, the us and other countries invading north Korea in order to over turn the regime?
In that case it would hopefully lead to the betterment of the people of north Korea in the long run. Would china and Russia actually dare support, thus causing ww3? Or stay out of it in order I preserve trade and future peace? China, technically could still remain allies with north Korea, but under difference pretenses ?
Another war to put the US in more debt.
SMART.
Stop putting a pricetag on human beings. Atleast the US get to use some of the 900$ billions they use on the military, and actually for a good cause.
Those 900 billion good have gone somewhere else as well, it's not like the US are the only ones trying to prevent this.
On-point: I think it's wrong to just blatantly assume that this is in any way threatening just because it's coming from NK. Sure it does seem suspicious and given NK's past with all rights should be considered suspicious but nontheless not treated with prejudice.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I thought this was supposed to be an informed post? You seem to have missed the entire point of the NK situation. We all know that the US can easily wipe out NK, that is common sense. But the fact still stands that this isn't about the safety of the US, rather it primarily extends to SK and the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula. A conflict in Korea might be laughable for the US, but it sure as hell wont be for the 50% of SK's population that resides in Seoul. Furthermore, the conflict will raise serious ramifications and repercussions of the future political landscape of the peninsula with the potential for Unification. US and China will be scrambling to fill the political vacuum if NK ever goes down.....increasing the tensions between the two superpowers and potentially creating conflict.
Not sure what's up with your slight at Sweden.
Your whole post is a non sequitur.
It's almost noon which means it's getting close to nap time for you. Don't forget to grab the pacifier on your way to bed.
Fucking kids.
Mods need a "report" button as well if you're going to pull this shit. You're suppose to lead by example. This is not how we argue on TL, and you damn well know it.
On April 01 2012 06:36 ranshaked wrote: This isn't politically correct, but would it almost be a good thing for north Korea to make a mistake in which the consequences resulted in NATO, the us and other countries invading north Korea in order to over turn the regime?
In that case it would hopefully lead to the betterment of the people of north Korea in the long run. Would china and Russia actually dare support, thus causing ww3? Or stay out of it in order I preserve trade and future peace? China, technically could still remain allies with north Korea, but under difference pretenses ?
The Soviet Union turned their backs on North Korea (and China) with Gorbachev, and since the dissolvment, they have been kind of neutral. I even doubt that China would help North Korea. They only supported them before because they owed it to Stalin, who was responsible for putting both Communistic parties into power. China have a similar history to North Korea, so they are not as quick to judge them. They are the only country that considers North Korea to be a legitimate country, so they tend to play the status-quo card, but they are not really fans of them. Not anymore. Although they are not fans of USA's cocky attitude either, it's very unlikely that they would go to war against them, because they are selfish enough to know that it would be a bad idea. In terms of supporting a war against North Korea, I would say Japan is the most likely, followed by USA, South Korea and then China. No matter what happens, Russia will probably stay out of it, and although China feels the same, I think influence in the area is more important to them than to Russia, so if war was inevitable, I can see them supporting USA and SK just to make sure that they can have a role in the aftermath.
On March 30 2012 14:48 DannyJ wrote: Stand back world as we display our 1950's technology.
This, why are people afraid? We'd know well ahead of time if they actually developed/were developing anything that could actually hurt us, and could destroy it/them before it did anything.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I thought this was supposed to be an informed post? You seem to have missed the entire point of the NK situation. We all know that the US can easily wipe out NK, that is common sense. But the fact still stands that this isn't about the safety of the US, rather it primarily extends to SK and the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula. A conflict in Korea might be laughable for the US, but it sure as hell wont be for the 50% of SK's population that resides in Seoul. Furthermore, the conflict will raise serious ramifications and repercussions of the future political landscape of the peninsula with the potential for Unification. US and China will be scrambling to fill the political vacuum if NK ever goes down.....increasing the tensions between the two superpowers and potentially creating conflict.
Not sure what's up with your slight at Sweden.
Your whole post is a non sequitur.
It's almost noon which means it's getting close to nap time for you. Don't forget to grab the pacifier on your way to bed.
Fucking kids.
Mods need a "report" button as well if you're going to pull this shit. You're suppose to lead by example. This is not how we argue on TL, and you damn well know it.
I don't know about reporting, but he might as well of been talking to me. 37 yr Old 4 Kids 4-years military 93-97 Paul supporter
Not just kids, informed dissent.
Cautious Bush 2 supporter... betrayed Obama same. I had to grow up and adjust my expectations. You might just see names, and 'people wanting to stir' crap is what your impression must be of us. Geopolitics is a harsh game, but perhaps Wargames was right. The only way to win, is not to play. I could be wrong, but so could you. The only thing I have vested in this is my countries name and some of my families butts. Perhaps my own, as i can still get a 2 yr recall, or drafted, jailed or whatever.
We (US) have been driving this game a long time, maybe we should see the game from the bench and regain some perspective. Honestly, I love debate, but insults around here should be a bit more tactful
The only thing worse than the fear of what NK might do, is the obvious consequences of if WE do anything. Russia, China and India are not going to support action unless NK steps way out of left field, and at this point attacking Iran or NK over anything less than a blatant attack is political 'all-in' versus those other 3 superpowers. Subtle is how those 3 countries are slowly unpinning themselves from our country financially. Iraq, meh, Afghanistan Meh. We go in to NK or Iran, or more than just proxy rush Syria, I will get drunk that day, and feel very very sorry for the backlash to come. My adopted brother enlisted Marines... and they love the pacific.
I'm sure that's all blah blah blah to you, but maybe it will be telling of why just one odd kid disagrees
Whelp if they say that they are going to be launching a rocket, you can only think that they are doing it for military purposes. All this scientific and humanitarian ho ha is probably not true. We'll have to see where this goes. I mean they probably aren't going to fire it on another place, but I'm sure they they are using this as a test rocket for something more eeeeeeeeviiiiillll!!!
On April 01 2012 08:38 Chunhyang wrote: Mensrea is a mod? He sure doesn't sound like one in that post.
This forum is sad sometimes, i got banned for "ad hominem", when all his posts in this thread are that, not to mention that they are completely stupid and embarassing.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I thought this was supposed to be an informed post? You seem to have missed the entire point of the NK situation. We all know that the US can easily wipe out NK, that is common sense. But the fact still stands that this isn't about the safety of the US, rather it primarily extends to SK and the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula. A conflict in Korea might be laughable for the US, but it sure as hell wont be for the 50% of SK's population that resides in Seoul. Furthermore, the conflict will raise serious ramifications and repercussions of the future political landscape of the peninsula with the potential for Unification. US and China will be scrambling to fill the political vacuum if NK ever goes down.....increasing the tensions between the two superpowers and potentially creating conflict.
Not sure what's up with your slight at Sweden.
Your whole post is a non sequitur.
It's almost noon which means it's getting close to nap time for you. Don't forget to grab the pacifier on your way to bed.
Fucking kids.
Mods need a "report" button as well if you're going to pull this shit. You're suppose to lead by example. This is not how we argue on TL, and you damn well know it.
Totally agree. Even myself don't see how that reply is any relevant to what Mod is talking about, but the way Mod acted was damn rude.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
stuff
Actually it's mainly the US making up rules and the UK obeying everything the US tells them to do.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I thought this was supposed to be an informed post? You seem to have missed the entire point of the NK situation. We all know that the US can easily wipe out NK, that is common sense. But the fact still stands that this isn't about the safety of the US, rather it primarily extends to SK and the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula. A conflict in Korea might be laughable for the US, but it sure as hell wont be for the 50% of SK's population that resides in Seoul. Furthermore, the conflict will raise serious ramifications and repercussions of the future political landscape of the peninsula with the potential for Unification. US and China will be scrambling to fill the political vacuum if NK ever goes down.....increasing the tensions between the two superpowers and potentially creating conflict.
Not sure what's up with your slight at Sweden.
Your whole post is a non sequitur.
It's almost noon which means it's getting close to nap time for you. Don't forget to grab the pacifier on your way to bed.
Fucking kids.
How are their posts irrelevant and uneducated? I expect this shit from some1 with 45 posts, but not a fucking mod. I hope your mod status gets taken away for being non sequitur yourself. In life and in this forum.
PS: Why can't I report him for being a shitty mod?
Actually it's mainly the US making up rules and the UK obeying everything the US tells them to do.
Well actually it was everyone in the world at the time and still everyone in the world except a very small number of dictators and a very large number of internet trolls and angry kids who think it's all unfair that the "Fab Five" have their nuclear clubhouse and keep everyone else out. Except countries that give them the finger and build their own clubhouse, that's worked pretty well for Israel, India, and Pakistan....
No one likes North Korea not even China so of course it hasn't worked out too well for them.
Mensrea is completely right. But then, baseless fear mongering is already ingrained into people's minds. The seesaw needs to keep moving, Iran talk is starting to slow down, so let's start talking again about how NK is the devil, and repeat the process back and forth until the US does something (or decides to pick on another member of the "axis of evil"), only to say how you've been against it from the beginning 5 years later.
On April 01 2012 10:14 Asshat wrote: Mensrea is completely right. But then, baseless fear mongering is already ingrained into people's minds. The seesaw needs to keep moving, Iran talk is starting to slow down, so let's start talking again about how NK is the devil, and repeat the process back and forth until the US does something (or decides to pick on another member of the "axis of evil"), only to say how you've been against it from the beginning 5 years later.
You know what Bush et al. should have done? Picked off NK instead of Iraq.
--Graham Allison
oh and no, the fear-mongering tactic employed in order to facilitate Iraq's invasion doesn't work anymore.. people are sort of aware that shit went pretty poorly in that regard, and are probably a little more willing to see things on their own
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
I thought this was supposed to be an informed post? You seem to have missed the entire point of the NK situation. We all know that the US can easily wipe out NK, that is common sense. But the fact still stands that this isn't about the safety of the US, rather it primarily extends to SK and the countries surrounding the Korean peninsula. A conflict in Korea might be laughable for the US, but it sure as hell wont be for the 50% of SK's population that resides in Seoul. Furthermore, the conflict will raise serious ramifications and repercussions of the future political landscape of the peninsula with the potential for Unification. US and China will be scrambling to fill the political vacuum if NK ever goes down.....increasing the tensions between the two superpowers and potentially creating conflict.
Not sure what's up with your slight at Sweden.
Your whole post is a non sequitur.
It's almost noon which means it's getting close to nap time for you. Don't forget to grab the pacifier on your way to bed.
Fucking kids.
Mods need a "report" button as well if you're going to pull this shit. You're suppose to lead by example. This is not how we argue on TL, and you damn well know it.
Totally agree. Even myself don't see how that reply is any relevant to what Mod is talking about, but the way Mod acted was damn rude.
Yeah, I agree too. Shocked when I saw that, very disappointing.
On topic, I imagine NK won't actually end up doing it. Wouldn't be surprised if it was just a ploy to get more stuff in exchange for them not going through with it. If they actually do... bad things will happen O.o
What's the point of shooting it down? They already built it, they're not going to get their money back for it if they don't launch it, and if it's shot down they'll have to built another one, and spend even more money, how's that helping anyone? It's their first test, they're not going to put a nuclear warhead inside, assuming they even have one, if there's any chance the rocket might just explode on the launch pad.
Afaik space doesn't belong to anyone, so they're free to launch their own satellites. Unless you say US can shoot it down because they made it to space first, but then I guess you would have been fine with SSSR using Cuba to shoot down rockets launched from Cape Canaveral in the 50s and 60s during the cold war, because the Soviet Union made it to space first.
On a serious note, i don't understand whats the fixation with north korea always doing stuff like this THEY KNOW will make the other countries angry.
i don't understand the first part of your post but ... the reason why they things like this is too show they are relevant and generally to get attention.
On April 09 2012 04:18 IaMaV wrote: I thought there was a agreement or something between them and South Korea promosing not to fire anything.
Promises don't mean a thing to North-Korea.
They are that erratic friend that can't stop lying about the most trivial things, all the while promising to show up next saturday night, only to say that he forgot, every week.
On March 30 2012 14:24 OP wrote: [...]The North fired off long-range missiles in 1998, 2006 and 2009. After the two most recent launches it swiftly followed up with an underground nuclear test, and some analysts see a similar scenario unfolding this time.[...]
And right they are.
SEOUL, April 8 (Yonhap) -- North Korea is believed to be gearing up for a nuclear test, an intelligence official said Sunday, a move certain to fuel the already high tensions over its planned long-range rocket launch.
Satellite images show the communist nation digging a new tunnel underground in the Punggye-ri nuclear test site in the country's northeast, where it conducted two previous nuclear tests, first in 2006 and then in 2009.
On March 30 2012 14:48 DannyJ wrote: Stand back world as we display our 1950's technology.
This, why are people afraid? We'd know well ahead of time if they actually developed/were developing anything that could actually hurt us, and could destroy it/them before it did anything.
SEOUL—North Korea launched a multistage rocket Friday morning, in another defiance of pressure from countries that want it to stop pursuing advanced weapons.
The rocket took off at 7:39 a.m. local time from a new launch facility in the country's northwest corner and flew south over the Yellow Sea on a path toward Japan's Ryuku Islands, the Philippines, Indonesia and Australia.
While we do need to point and laugh at their rocket fail, especially after all the hype they gave the world by saying they were going to launch it, we still need to do something about it so they dont do it again.
Prevent them from going any further with this tech, and furthermore, kick the shit out of them to rub salt in the wound! They are being far too brazen right now, they need a gut check.
lmao... North korea is just a bunch of noobs... fail!
Or they're pro and tricking us into believing that was the real threat when in reality they made it break apart on purpose and are launching another one from some secret place :O
I bet the North Korean television is currently busy photoshopping a russian missile launch to look like theirs and that we'll soon be seeing 'high resolution sattelite pictures' taken from google maps.
Well it was expected. What people don't know is that Koizumi saved us all by challenging the NK leader to mahjong and the Missile shattered at the force of His Yakuman Tsumo.
As expected hahaha Knew it Koizumi-san saved us all
On April 13 2012 09:37 Derez wrote: I bet the North Korean television is currently busy photoshopping a russian missile launch to look like theirs and that we'll soon be seeing 'high resolution sattelite pictures' taken from google maps.
whats an example of something NK photoshopped/faked in the past?
Oh my dear, this is scary... ever since kim jong died i have been on the edge of my seat. someone that young shouldn't be able to run a country filled with scary military potential, i really hope nothing comes out of this and UN and nato make a stand fast, the world today really scares D:
On April 13 2012 09:37 Derez wrote: I bet the North Korean television is currently busy photoshopping a russian missile launch to look like theirs and that we'll soon be seeing 'high resolution sattelite pictures' taken from google maps.
whats an example of something NK photoshopped/faked in the past?
Half of their great leader pictures are photoshopped, their 'special event' photos get 'cleaned up' (funeral most recently) and their previous satelite is widely considered to have crashed into the ocean and they're still claiming its transmitting.
On April 13 2012 09:37 Derez wrote: I bet the North Korean television is currently busy photoshopping a russian missile launch to look like theirs and that we'll soon be seeing 'high resolution sattelite pictures' taken from google maps.
whats an example of something NK photoshopped/faked in the past?
When they were holding parades for the "dear leader" after he died, they photoshopped all photos so things were lined up neatly and any citizens not in perfect order were not only photoshopped out, they were killed. There's articles over this. And to think that anything that comes out of N.K. ISN'T photoshopped is quite ludicrous.
This story seems to get replayed almost every year in some form or fashion. China clearly backs NK in some way, and probably has a hand in orchestrating this. This won't go on forever though, sooner or later the regime makes a mistake and someone invades. Probably end up being China in the mother-of-all-ironies.
Great way to celebrate their Dear Leader's 100th birthday and to celebrate the "great and prosperous" nation, have the missile fail and fall somewhere in the South China Sea.
This story seems to get replayed almost every year in some form or fashion. China clearly backs NK in some way, and probably has a hand in orchestrating this.
North Korea is China's crazy little vassal state that went wrong. China backs the NK government more these days because to the CCP's perspective anything else would actually be worse than for any other reason - that doesn't mean they particularly like NK scaring the piss out of Seoul and Tokyo. That gets Washington all huffy, China doesn't want excuses of the kind NK provides for the US to continue its military and diplomatic presence in Asia.
China also doesn't like how NK is a slave-state hellhole one bad harvest away from anarchy on the border. Millions of North Koreans pouring over the river into China is the last thing Beijing wants, it'd be less likely to happen if the NK government wasn't so batshit.
Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
This story seems to get replayed almost every year in some form or fashion. China clearly backs NK in some way, and probably has a hand in orchestrating this.
North Korea is China's crazy little vassal state that went wrong. China backs the NK government more these days because to the CCP's perspective anything else would actually be worse than for any other reason - that doesn't mean they particularly like NK scaring the piss out of Seoul and Tokyo. That gets Washington all huffy, China doesn't want excuses of the kind NK provides for the US to continue its military and diplomatic presence in Asia.
China also doesn't like how NK is a slave-state hellhole one bad harvest away from anarchy on the border. Millions of North Koreans pouring over the river into China is the last thing Beijing wants, it'd be less likely to happen if the NK government wasn't so batshit.
On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
Confuzzling NK is confuzzling :S
I don't think you realize just how difficult it is to intercept something successfully moving at mach 10+, and if you intercept on reentry, closing speeds of near or even exceeding mach 15. You can either kill it in launch phase or intercept as it's coming in, but catching it once it gets going to be impossible. The number of population centers with missile defense systems are REALLY, REALLY low.
It's a lot easier to build a nuke than to launch a successful guided rocket though. NK has sucessfully made nukes. They just haven't managed to build a rocket that can deliver it.
On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
Confuzzling NK is confuzzling :S
I don't think you realize just how difficult it is to intercept something successfully moving at mach 10+, and if you intercept on reentry, closing speeds of near or even exceeding mach 15. You can either kill it in launch phase or intercept as it's coming in, but catching it once it gets going to be impossible. The number of population centers with missile defense systems are REALLY, REALLY low.
It's a lot easier to build a nuke than to launch a successful guided rocket though. NK has sucessfully made nukes. They just haven't managed to build a rocket that can deliver it.
The warhead in reentry is traveling faster than the sharpnel that is produced from a missle exploding. Making the only way for the warhead to be intercepted successfully is to have it explode in front of the warhead (not beside). Not sure of how big the kill-zone of the defense system missle is. Radius 50 m max?
Hmmm, China wasn't too different back in the day, the Communist Party spending all that money on nukes and missiles and rockets when a lot of people were still starving.
On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
Confuzzling NK is confuzzling :S
No one wants nukes to use them, as all the nuclear powers would retaliate in kind. It's just a political tool. Oh hey, we have the ability to wipe out your cities. We'll get rid of some of our ability to wipe out cities for some food and other useful things for us.
couldn't NK transport a nuke wherever it wants on a shipping vessel? Obviously alarms would go off everywhere if a missile was launched but by boat not sure how anyone could detect that
On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
Get food aid. That's all their posturing is all about. As well as appear strong to their domestic 'audience'. Their ideology destroys their own ability to produce food. What I don't get is why the US doesn't just give that to them. Yeah, most of the food will go to soldiers and if there is not enough, people will still starve. But do they really think having the failed regime starve their own people is a good idea? And even if this will make the regime implode, what good is that? Imagine S Korea having to absorb N Korea.
The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
Japan doesn't need an army, They have Koizumi and his RISING SUN!!!!!!!
Koizumi will protect japan from any NK shenanigans with his....
You see earlier today while the entire japan was like this
Koizumi went to delegate with NK with a mahjong game with the NK Leader and NK leader lost so he threw a tantrum and launched the Taepodong and Koizumi was like NO! so he got into a fighter jet and shot that shit down himself.
On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
LOL, bro things change... they aren't the same fanatical-zealots they were when the God Emperor was in power.
nevermind: I'm stupid, didn't read the "In Favor"
Conspiracy Theory but since someone said it already, NK seems to be bluffing that they'll launch this "satellite" to show that they're not a country to be messed with. We all know that the whole world should be democratic/republic or whatever works nowadays but the leaders of course wants to stand to the same ideology since that what brings them absolute/unwavering power.
On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
LOL, bro things change... they aren't the same fanatical-zealots they were when the God Emperor was in power.
True, but some of the things they did still sting. I mean, they did stuff that made the Nazi's cringe.
Though because of that war, I'm very very curious on how many Japanese would actually join a new Japanese Navy/Army/Air Force/Marine Corps. Considering that, well, at least the government, has had a pacifist stance since the defeat and surrender.
On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
To be quite frank I have my doubts that Japan even wants an standing army at this point, as any money they would be spending on an army is instead going to America to place bases in their country allowing Japan to focus solely on domestic growth. Because lets face it, if anyone were to attack Japan - it would invoke the US to respond militarily.
Of course that's not to say it couldn't change - after all who would stop Japan from training a full fledged army if they really wanted one? The UN?
Japan is basically a vassal state of the US. It has no independent foreign policy. It's self defense force is already adequate to be a proper military. The problem is all the US bases on their territory. The Japanese people want them gone. Their politicians get elected with this campaign promise. But when they get into power the Japanese prime minster actually doesn't have the power to force the Americans out. This is one of the main reason of the internal political turmoil in Japan. And this turmoil doesn't help with the internal problems they have. Japan can be the new Greece.
Japan needs to change its constitution. Maybe now with the decrease in political apethy in the wake of Fukushima, where Japanese people actually start to denounce their government, people power may be able to force the US military to leave where Japanese politians can't and grant Japan independence because right now Japan is still defacto occupied by a foreign power.
Being defeated in a war teaches pacificm. You can see this both in Germany and Japan. This is a lesson the people of some countries, like Israel and the US, still need to learn.
On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
To be quite frank I have my doubts that Japan even wants an standing army at this point, as any money they would be spending on an army is instead going to America to place bases in their country allowing Japan to focus solely on domestic growth. Because lets face it, if anyone were to attack Japan - it would invoke the US to respond militarily.
Of course that's not to say it couldn't change - after all who would stop Japan from training a full fledged army if they really wanted one? The UN?
America, actually. According to the terms of surrender, Japan can only be allowed a Self Defense Force. All major defense needs would be (and are) handled by the United States of America. Japan cannot have a standing army/navy/air force/marine corps. The size of which is dictated by the United States.
Granted, the JSDF has seen action in oversea's campaigns. Iraq, Afghanistan, ect... I believe, and could be wrong, those overseas operations can only happen with the approval of the United States Military Command.
I think that's how the treaty was originally written. How much of the latter is enforced, I don't know.
Thing is, even if North Korea successfully launched a nuke at the US, the US has the capability to, say, launch enough firepower from a carrier in the Indian Ocean to turn South Korea into an island.
On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
Confuzzling NK is confuzzling :S
I don't think you realize just how difficult it is to intercept something successfully moving at mach 10+, and if you intercept on reentry, closing speeds of near or even exceeding mach 15. You can either kill it in launch phase or intercept as it's coming in, but catching it once it gets going to be impossible. The number of population centers with missile defense systems are REALLY, REALLY low.
It's a lot easier to build a nuke than to launch a successful guided rocket though. NK has sucessfully made nukes. They just haven't managed to build a rocket that can deliver it.
On April 13 2012 13:52 ticklishmusic wrote: Thing is, even if North Korea successfully launched a nuke at the US, the US has the capability to, say, launch enough firepower from a carrier in the Indian Ocean to turn South Korea into an island.
Any retaliation from a nuclear launch from North Korea to the United States would have to be conventional. The radiation would blow towards Japan, or South Korea, where Americans who are wither Military or civilian are living.
Not to say we couldn't... we have enough M.O.A.B's in inventory to do the job....
On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
To be quite frank I have my doubts that Japan even wants an standing army at this point, as any money they would be spending on an army is instead going to America to place bases in their country allowing Japan to focus solely on domestic growth. Because lets face it, if anyone were to attack Japan - it would invoke the US to respond militarily.
Of course that's not to say it couldn't change - after all who would stop Japan from training a full fledged army if they really wanted one? The UN?
America, actually. According to the terms of surrender, Japan can only be allowed a Self Defense Force. All major defense needs would be (and are) handled by the United States of America. Japan cannot have a standing army/navy/air force/marine corps. The size of which is dictated by the United States.
Granted, the JSDF has seen action in oversea's campaigns. Iraq, Afghanistan, ect... I believe, and could be wrong, those overseas operations can only happen with the approval of the United States Military Command.
I think that's how the treaty was originally written. How much of the latter is enforced, I don't know.
The whole point about the theoretical recruitment of a Japanese army wasn't concerning the legitimacy of the treaty, it was about enforcement. Now please explain to me, how would the US enforce the treaty if Japan drastically increased their military size - perhaps enough to match that of the US?
Honestly the only two enforcement options the US would have at that point would be to either outright occupy Japan until they decommission (and honestly I doubt any politician at this point wants to risk their next term over another possible war) or use their voting power in the UN to install sanctions on Japan - which would be a tough sell I'd imagine.
Japan increasing it's military forces would benefit the US because, as things stand now, that money will buy US made equipment and since Japan doesn't have it's own independent foreign policy, it would strengthen the power the US projects in the region.
On April 13 2012 13:52 ticklishmusic wrote: Thing is, even if North Korea successfully launched a nuke at the US, the US has the capability to, say, launch enough firepower from a carrier in the Indian Ocean to turn South Korea into an island.
Any retaliation from a nuclear launch from North Korea to the United States would have to be conventional. The radiation would blow towards Japan, or South Korea, where Americans who are wither Military or civilian are living.
Not to say we couldn't... we have enough M.O.A.B's in inventory to do the job....
Or we could use covert tactics and take out the NK government then establish capitalism there and give the people there jobs as cheap labor since little income > almost no income then have global economy flourish by exploiting the NK citizens but at the same time increase their quality of life since they have no quality right now any quality is better than no quality and everyone wins.
On April 13 2012 14:04 Miyoshino wrote: Japan increasing it's military forces would benefit the US because, as things stand now, that money will buy US made equipment and since Japan doesn't have it's own independent foreign policy, it would strengthen the power the US projects in the region.
Not to derail the thread, but this post intrigues me.
Does the US sell any of its current-gen military hardware to anybody? As far as I know, even our closest NATO allies don't have any F-22s, for example. They're all flying F-35s or worse.
Modern economists say that specialization and free trade is one of the keys to increasing wealth. Yet, if the United States spends trillions each year on military development, yet doesn't export any of it, this is essentially the same as an isolationist state. It would be the same as spending trillions developing a steel or automotive or telecommunications industry and infrastructure, but not exporting it internationally.
They don't. I think even the F-35s they will be selling lack some features their own F-35's will have. Also, there's always the speculation about them having a kill switch or something similar.
NATO basically exists for the US to be able to sell their military equipment to their allies and subsidize their own military industry this way. The moment Japan does away with their article 13, or whatever the number is, the will instantly join NATO anyway. So it won't really change anything.
Anyway this talk about N Korea using nukes, it's all about the artillery aimed at Seoul.
The F-35 program isn't any more healthy. F-35 is a flawed airplane. The stealth is laregely obsolete. It's irrelevant and can be circumvented anyway. As an air to air fighter, F-35 will probably lose vs 5th gen Chinese and Russian planes. As an attack aircraft the payload is very limited because it had to be stealthy. And then it isn't too cheap either.
Japan picked F-35, India is buying Rafale, S Korea will probably also buy.
F-22 is purely for domestic use. When time passes on and F-15's are being retired and when there is a need for it, the US will start to produce more F-22s.
On April 13 2012 13:04 Crackensan wrote: The threat of nuclear weapons is enough to make Japan and South Korea get very very involved. North Korea's SRM's can strike anywhere within the region. I believe, though could be wrong, that the longest range SRM can hit the farthest away Japanese Home Islands.
What North Korea is trying to do is what the U.S and Russia did during the Cold War. Have the ability to reach out and touch someone. They believe, that if they can do this, they can effectively "Barter" for resources.
Where this is a very similar song and dance that the regime has done over the past... what, 10 years? It's concerning that a nation with an insane leadership that is essentially backed into a corner is trying to gain first strike capability with nuclear weapons. That subtley will change the balance of power...
That said, as a Korean, I'm really in favor of letting Japan off the chain and letting them have not only a self defense force, but an actual standing army............ hopefully they won't go full retard like they did in 1920-1945.
Japan doesn't need an army, They have Koizumi and his RISING SUN!!!!!!!
Koizumi will protect japan from any NK shenanigans with his....
You see earlier today while the entire japan was like this
Koizumi went to delegate with NK with a mahjong game with the NK Leader and NK leader lost so he threw a tantrum and launched the Taepodong and Koizumi was like NO! so he got into a fighter jet and shot that shit down himself.
What a manly man. I knew we can count on Koizumi!
Seems Legit.
I think this whole thing is really funny though... North Korea is just so surreal
On April 13 2012 11:02 Seldentar wrote: Man I don't understand North Korea at all... what exactly is the point of having nuclear capability when your nation is economically starved?
What value do nukes have for them? Even IF they managed to create perfectly functional nukes, what the fuck do they expect to do with them?
The nukes will simply be shot down by anti-missle defense systems without any harm done and there are countries capable of wiping NK off the face of the earth if they have sufficient reason to do so...
The USA for example has had nukes perfected for over half a century, and NK is still failing to launch one successfully. Think about that... the USA is over half a century more advanced than NK... who knows what kind of secret technologies the government has by now. I'd imagine some extremely advanced stuff... Nukes are almost a joke by now... That's like bringing bows and arrows to a gun fight...
Confuzzling NK is confuzzling :S
I don't think you realize just how difficult it is to intercept something successfully moving at mach 10+, and if you intercept on reentry, closing speeds of near or even exceeding mach 15. You can either kill it in launch phase or intercept as it's coming in, but catching it once it gets going to be impossible. The number of population centers with missile defense systems are REALLY, REALLY low.
It's a lot easier to build a nuke than to launch a successful guided rocket though. NK has sucessfully made nukes. They just haven't managed to build a rocket that can deliver it.
Is there anything you don't know?
You should look this up before you start being smarmy. Intercepting ballistic missiles is like trying to hit a tennis ball out of the air with one of your own.
On April 13 2012 15:25 Reyis wrote:south koreans dispatched boats to collect the pieces to perform investigation on them.
uh.. and the north koreans don't mind if they do this?
They sent up a rocket even after they were advised not to, the rocket landed in South Korean waters. Of course they might get grumpy but they really don't have anything to whine about...
I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
Well to start, China is the sole reason that North-Korea exists in the first place.
And second, China is keeping that regime on its feet.
China isn't responsible for making North-Korea as insane as it is, and I never claimed they were, but they are responsible for not pulling the plug on this atrocity.
The USA can fix this abomination with an invasion. China could fix this by putting on the pressure and forcing change. North-Korea remains stable by the grace of China.
But as always, everything is going to fall on the shoulders of the US, and people will whine and complain that the US is playing world police. Good thing someone is when even regional powers like China are too incompetent to sort out their own backyard.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
IMO it's perfectly logical what the NK ruling class are doing, which is to keep as much power as possible, keep their people as uninformed as possible, while putting international aid and what little their country produces in their own homes and pockets. It's textbook 1984. In this respect I feel the ruling class in NK are quite rational. Realise that there are two ways to retain power, one is being benevolent and the other, well, is what most dictatorships are doing.
As for China-NK, well China and USA are distrustful or each other, given Cold War roots to the tension, China's recent rise that is threatening "the West", and the Korean War which almost lead to war between China and USA (honestly, China felt like what the Americans felt during the Cuban Missile Crisis). But yeah, life in NK is miserable, China shouldn't mollycoddle their leaders so much just because they are "Communist" (and hilariously have "Democratic" in the name)
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
Well to start, China is the sole reason that North-Korea exists in the first place.
And second, China is keeping that regime on its feet.
China isn't responsible for making North-Korea as insane as it is, and I never claimed they were, but they are responsible for not pulling the plug on this atrocity.
The USA can fix this abomination with an invasion. China could fix this by putting on the pressure and forcing change. North-Korea remains stable by the grace of China.
But as always, everything is going to fall on the shoulders of the US, and people will whine and complain that the US is playing world police. Good thing someone is when even regional powers like China are too incompetent to sort out their own backyard.
"Can't be fucked" would be more accurate, since China has little incentive to help pull down a regime when the border will be flooded with refugees. That is something that US doesn't need to worry about, no?
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
Well to start, China is the sole reason that North-Korea exists in the first place.
And second, China is keeping that regime on its feet.
China isn't responsible for making North-Korea as insane as it is, and I never claimed they were, but they are responsible for not pulling the plug on this atrocity.
The USA can fix this abomination with an invasion. China could fix this by putting on the pressure and forcing change. North-Korea remains stable by the grace of China.
But as always, everything is going to fall on the shoulders of the US, and people will whine and complain that the US is playing world police. Good thing someone is when even regional powers like China are too incompetent to sort out their own backyard.
"Can't be fucked" would be more accurate, since China has little incentive to help pull down a regime when the border will be flooded with refugees. That is something that US doesn't need to worry about, no?
There is a middle ground between:
1) Giving food and sustaining the regime.
2) Withdrawing all food and knocking the regime over.
They can just apply political pressure and push the regime towards change. They hold the power over North-Korea, and if the North-Korean government is as rational as many seem to believe, then they know this just as well.
China only cares about maintaining the ability to keep refugees out. They don't need to have peace with North-Korea for that to be the case. It works now, but the more unstable North-Korea grows, the more likely they will settle for an agressive stance against North-Korea, giving them the pretext to set up their own army to keep the North-koreans out.
I don't believe that North-Korea is immune to pressure from China, but if they are, the reason to invade has only become greater. A totalitarian nuclear armed nation that literally doesn't give a fuck what anyone says? Yeah, that is really going to be a stabilizing force in the world.
North-Korea has been going off the deep end for a while, and if we are to believe the wikileaks, even China doesn't fully control them anymore. So what are we to do? The smart plan is to influence North-Korea via the political road whilst it is still an option, rather than the invasion that will otherwise be inevitable.
The problem is that China's government lacks the spine to or insight to do what is right. They prefer to try and maintain a status quo that won't last. Meanwhile, the tumor only grows.
Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
On April 13 2012 18:27 mcc wrote: Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
Okay, may I give you an analogy.. I do have the right to own an m4a1, what would you feel if I shoot my BDMFing gun on your backyard? That's the real problem here, NK is going to test those missiles in Japan.. The world won't give a damn if they develop rockets as long as they test in on their ground.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
The logic is easy to see for anyone actually looking. What NK is doing is rather pragmatic from the point of view of the ruling elite in NK. They are caught between rock and hard-place, put there by the actions of the previous elite. They need to keep ideological pressure on their population (hence all the expensive stuff, including nukes and rockets), they need to create a deterrent against possible invasion (again hence the nukes and rockets) and they need to make sure their population does not die. They are trying to balance it, but of course they fail in some areas and small/medium famines are easily blamed on the US/SK. Of course they are morally bankrupt, but they are behaving pragmatically using the information they have to preserve their power. Launching a nuke on another country does not help them in this goal. On the other hand having a nuke and delivery system does. So they are trying to build it.
As for the rocket, it will be used for the first purpose (propaganda) anyway as they will most likely proclaim it succeeded as they did previously. They will order their population to tune in to a radio frequency that will be broadcasting from the "successfuly" launched satellite, of course noone in Korea has the ability to verify if it is actually from space (as having such equipment is punishable by death) so they easily can do that.
Interesting read for all the experts here on the China-DPRK relationships: Look up the cablegate (from wikileaks) releases from the Shenyang embassy in China (the US consulate closest to the DPRK), thats where all the 'secret' stuff about the connections between the two countries are posted. Too bad it's only from 2010 etc., but still highly relevant to your interests I guess.. Edit: Might also be interesting to you that the DPRK is not only "aided"/financed by China, but also many expatriates living in Korea (the Koreans who moved to Japan back when Korea was unified and under Japanese control, and stayed in Japan after WW 2).
On April 13 2012 18:27 mcc wrote: Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
Okay, may I give you an analogy.. I do have the right to own an m4a1, what would you feel if I shoot my BDMFing gun on your backyard? That's the real problem here, NK is going to test those missiles in Japan.. The world won't give a damn if they develop rockets as long as they test in on their ground.
In Japan you mean they will shoot at Japan, or that the rocket will fail and fall down on Japan ? It is not like air space above certain elevation is sacrosanct in international politics. Many nations capable of that violate air space of other nations.
On April 13 2012 13:45 Miyoshino wrote: Japan is basically a vassal state of the US. It has no independent foreign policy. It's self defense force is already adequate to be a proper military. The problem is all the US bases on their territory. The Japanese people want them gone. Their politicians get elected with this campaign promise. But when they get into power the Japanese prime minster actually doesn't have the power to force the Americans out. This is one of the main reason of the internal political turmoil in Japan. And this turmoil doesn't help with the internal problems they have. Japan can be the new Greece.
Japan needs to change its constitution. Maybe now with the decrease in political apethy in the wake of Fukushima, where Japanese people actually start to denounce their government, people power may be able to force the US military to leave where Japanese politians can't and grant Japan independence because right now Japan is still defacto occupied by a foreign power.
Being defeated in a war teaches pacificm. You can see this both in Germany and Japan. This is a lesson the people of some countries, like Israel and the US, still need to learn.
This is so true. As a foreigner living in Japan right now, I know that Japanese people want US bases on their lands gone. From what I've observed, American soldiers tend to make a lot of trouble, they can get real rowdy in bars. It's disgusting =/
I support the notion that Japan should have its own standing army. They have enough technology to create a fearsome army with a decade. Imperial Japan is gone...they should have its own army to have some sort of protection from the ever-growing Chinese force nearby.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
The logic is easy to see for anyone actually looking. What NK is doing is rather pragmatic from the point of view of the ruling elite in NK. They are caught between rock and hard-place, put there by the actions of the previous elite. They need to keep ideological pressure on their population (hence all the expensive stuff, including nukes and rockets), they need to create a deterrent against possible invasion (again hence the nukes and rockets) and they need to make sure their population does not die. They are trying to balance it, but of course they fail in some areas and small/medium famines are easily blamed on the US/SK. Of course they are morally bankrupt, but they are behaving pragmatically using the information they have to preserve their power. Launching a nuke on another country does not help them in this goal. On the other hand having a nuke and delivery system does. So they are trying to build it.
As for the rocket, it will be used for the first purpose (propaganda) anyway as they will most likely proclaim it succeeded as they did previously. They will order their population to tune in to a radio frequency that will be broadcasting from the "successfuly" launched satellite, of course noone in Korea has the ability to verify if it is actually from space (as having such equipment is punishable by death) so they easily can do that.
There is no record of the North-Korean government pursueing such novelty propaganda achievements.
They wouldn't even need to fire a rocket, they wouldn't even need to build it. They could air a message about how Kim-Jong-Un jumped to the moon, claimed it as North-Korean land, then jumped back, and a decent chunk of people would shrug and accept it.
The nation is already firmly in the governments grasp, only the outlying regions, which produce and are derived of most of the food, are a real threat for stability. With food, they have something to hold over their people. Do as we say, or we let you starve.
Right now it is do as I say, and you will starve.
Trying to score a propaganda victory is pointless and certainly not pragmatic when you realize that NK is so shut off and brainwashed that they could fabricate the entire rocket from thin air and it would serve the same purpose, except then they would also get their food since nobody gives a shit what lies the NK government tells their people.
I mean, nobody here has any doubts that the missile launch is being reported as a giant succes, all the while, the government is probably executing a few of the people that worked on it for disgracing the state.
Succes, failure, it doesn't matter. The nation is so brainwashed they might as well take the food and conjure up the rocket from their imagination, a rocket that would probably work a great deal better than this one.
Seriously, it has been going on for decades. Everytime NK ran out of foods, they are somehow acquiring nuclear stuff until the next food aids. Honestly, I do not think Japan, South Korea, or China wants to absorb NK when the regime dies off. Everything is that country is so fucked up. Instead, they keep providing foods so they can have their own fantasy land.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
And in the history of mankind, nobody has ever displayed:
* Delusional views of their own ability * Self-destructive tendencies * Idealism over Pragmatism
If North-Korea was rational, North-Korea wouldn't exist. There is nothing logical about anything they are doing.
They were getting a massive shipment of food that they could have used to feed their population. All they had to do was hand out other people's food, and they would be able to remain in power.
And what do they do? Fire a missile so poorly build that it breaks down in mid-air, probably because their science department tried to fill it with a special fuel that is one part kerosine and one part Kim-Il-Sung.
What is the logic behind that? The missile won't give them shit, the food would allow their leadership to feed their people, even a tyrant benefits from feeding his own people.
There are people who aren't rational, and they should not be allowed to have nukes and missiles that can hit any point on earth. We can't forever rely on the North-Koreans being as retarded as they are. One day they will be able to build a missile that does work.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
The logic is easy to see for anyone actually looking. What NK is doing is rather pragmatic from the point of view of the ruling elite in NK. They are caught between rock and hard-place, put there by the actions of the previous elite. They need to keep ideological pressure on their population (hence all the expensive stuff, including nukes and rockets), they need to create a deterrent against possible invasion (again hence the nukes and rockets) and they need to make sure their population does not die. They are trying to balance it, but of course they fail in some areas and small/medium famines are easily blamed on the US/SK. Of course they are morally bankrupt, but they are behaving pragmatically using the information they have to preserve their power. Launching a nuke on another country does not help them in this goal. On the other hand having a nuke and delivery system does. So they are trying to build it.
As for the rocket, it will be used for the first purpose (propaganda) anyway as they will most likely proclaim it succeeded as they did previously. They will order their population to tune in to a radio frequency that will be broadcasting from the "successfuly" launched satellite, of course noone in Korea has the ability to verify if it is actually from space (as having such equipment is punishable by death) so they easily can do that.
There is no record of the North-Korean government pursueing such novelty propaganda achievements.
They wouldn't even need to fire a rocket, they wouldn't even need to build it. They could air a message about how Kim-Jong-Un jumped to the moon, claimed it as North-Korean land, then jumped back, and a decent chunk of people would shrug and accept it.
The nation is already firmly in the governments grasp, only the outlying regions, which produce and are derived of most of the food, are a real threat for stability. With food, they have something to hold over their people. Do as we say, or we let you starve.
Right now it is do as I say, and you will starve.
Trying to score a propaganda victory is pointless and certainly not pragmatic when you realize that NK is so shut off and brainwashed that they could fabricate the entire rocket from thin air and it would serve the same purpose, except then they would also get their food since nobody gives a shit what lies the NK government tells their people.
I mean, nobody here has any doubts that the missile launch is being reported as a giant succes, all the while, the government is probably executing a few of the people that worked on it for disgracing the state.
Succes, failure, it doesn't matter. The nation is so brainwashed they might as well take the food and conjure up the rocket from their imagination, a rocket that would probably work a great deal better than this one.
Did you notice the dual purpose of the nukes and weapons I mentioned ? They want them actually working for military purposes, they are just using them also for propaganda. So no they could not just "conjure up the rocket from their imagination".
On April 13 2012 18:27 mcc wrote: Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
Okay, may I give you an analogy.. I do have the right to own an m4a1, what would you feel if I shoot my BDMFing gun on your backyard? That's the real problem here, NK is going to test those missiles in Japan.. The world won't give a damn if they develop rockets as long as they test in on their ground.
In Japan you mean they will shoot at Japan, or that the rocket will fail and fall down on Japan ? It is not like air space above certain elevation is sacrosanct in international politics. Many nations capable of that violate air space of other nations.
no, many nations cant violate the air space of the big 3 + 1 nations. usa, uk, russia and +1 as china. these nations dont need permission from anyone to send something to the space while rest of the world must take permission from the international community to do such stuff.
North Korea was forbidden to do such a thing, cant even ask for a permission. There will be a punishment for that in the future.
But lets say, if Czech Republic did it without permission, that would have had lesser punishment for it because Czech are not forbidden to make those rockets but they must ask permission from the big 3 + 1 to launch.
Let's hope NK doesn't do anything crazy to "redeem" themselves since they lost "face". Many fear now that NK will test detonate another mini nuke just to prove to the rest of the world that they are not failures.
On April 14 2012 05:15 Integra wrote: Let's hope NK doesn't do anything crazy to "redeem" themselves since they lost "face". Many fear now that NK will test detonate another mini nuke just to prove to the rest of the world that they are not failures.
This is what happened in the past also. The NK leadership depends a lot on showing their military strength, and their new great leader is looking like a failure so far. I'd say its likely they do another pointless nuclear test, further screwing over their own population because food aid will be over entirely and hopefully finally getting China to intervene in this nonsense.
On March 30 2012 14:48 DannyJ wrote: Stand back world as we display our 1950's technology.
LOL'ed so damn hard. Thank you sir
Just to give some perspective: first satellite to be launched was Sputnik 1, launched by the Soviet Union on October 4, 1957. The first Satellite from USA was Explorer 1 which launched January 31, 1958.
So ya.... NK really showing the world just how "advanced" they are....
On April 13 2012 18:27 mcc wrote: Why are people going crazy because sovereign nation is developing rockets ? I could understand the indignation if people were arguing they should use the resources to rather feed their people, but most seem to argue that NK is evil because they do not do as they are told. They can develop rockets all they want. As for Soul, NK does not need rockets and nukes to destroy soul, as far as I know they have enough artillery in range of Soul to do it anyway.
Okay, may I give you an analogy.. I do have the right to own an m4a1, what would you feel if I shoot my BDMFing gun on your backyard? That's the real problem here, NK is going to test those missiles in Japan.. The world won't give a damn if they develop rockets as long as they test in on their ground.
In Japan you mean they will shoot at Japan, or that the rocket will fail and fall down on Japan ? It is not like air space above certain elevation is sacrosanct in international politics. Many nations capable of that violate air space of other nations.
no, many nations cant violate the air space of the big 3 + 1 nations. usa, uk, russia and +1 as china. these nations dont need permission from anyone to send something to the space while rest of the world must take permission from the international community to do such stuff.
North Korea was forbidden to do such a thing, cant even ask for a permission. There will be a punishment for that in the future.
But lets say, if Czech Republic did it without permission, that would have had lesser punishment for it because Czech are not forbidden to make those rockets but they must ask permission from the big 3 + 1 to launch.
I have no idea why would you include uk and not france, but that is just a nitpick. My question is why do other nations need permission. Who forbade NK to do that and who has the authority to do that ? You seem like a proponent of might makes right approach, but those who subsribe to it have no justification for their actions and once there is someone stronger they have no way to object when finally they are being pushed around and killed without being hypocrites.
So again why should a sovereign nation ask for permission to build and launch rockets ?
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
On March 30 2012 14:48 DannyJ wrote: Stand back world as we display our 1950's technology.
LOL'ed so damn hard. Thank you sir
Just to give some perspective: first satellite to be launched was Sputnik 1, launched by the Soviet Union on October 4, 1957. The first Satellite from USA was Explorer 1 which launched January 31, 1958.
So ya.... NK really showing the world just how "advanced" they are....
Not saying that they are not rather backward technologically, but using space programs to show that is kind of ridiculous. How many satellites have Sweden launched on their own ? Space program is not only dependent on scientific and technological knowledge, but you need also a lot of "institutional" knowledge that takes time to build no matter how advanced your science and technology is. I think there are better ways to showcase their technological backwardness, just look at their daily lives, healthcare, scientific output,...
On March 30 2012 14:48 DannyJ wrote: Stand back world as we display our 1950's technology.
LOL'ed so damn hard. Thank you sir
Just to give some perspective: first satellite to be launched was Sputnik 1, launched by the Soviet Union on October 4, 1957. The first Satellite from USA was Explorer 1 which launched January 31, 1958.
So ya.... NK really showing the world just how "advanced" they are....
Not saying that they are not rather backward technologically, but using space programs to show that is kind of ridiculous. How many satellites have Sweden launched on their own ? Space program is not only dependent on scientific and technological knowledge, but you need also a lot of "institutional" knowledge that takes time to build no matter how advanced your science and technology is. I think there are better ways to showcase their technological backwardness, just look at their daily lives, healthcare, scientific output,...
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
I'd like to add that every western country in the world has performed chemical and/or biological warfare tests on their civilians and every western country in the world has performed missile tests in the past and possibly today. Just like Iran, western countries are condemning NK because they want to keep their upper hand on military technology. Humanitarian help is just a side effect. Seriously.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
I'd like to add that every western country in the world has performed chemical and/or biological warfare tests on their civilians and every western country in the world has performed missile tests in the past and possibly today. Just like Iran, western countries are condemning NK because they want to keep their upper hand on military technology. Humanitarian help is just a side effect. Seriously.
I think I will side with those people, rather than people like you who would even defend a government that experiments weapons on civillians.
To say that you lack any sense of a morality is to infer too much praise for your pitch black heart.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
I'd like to add that every western country in the world has performed chemical and/or biological warfare tests on their civilians and every western country in the world has performed missile tests in the past and possibly today. Just like Iran, western countries are condemning NK because they want to keep their upper hand on military technology. Humanitarian help is just a side effect. Seriously.
Western countries don't let millions of their citizens starve or kill thousands of their own citizens for protesting, and the last few times countries with non-Western ideals had military parity with the West about 150 million people died combined in WW1, WW2 and through Communist mass murder of their own citizens. So a Western upper hand on military technology seems pretty preferable for Westerns and non-Westerners alike.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
While I agree with everything you're saying, A lot of these North Koreans are indoctrinated to the level that they wil die to the last man for their country. That's what most people forget about, the fact that it might be possible that the north Koreans don't want to be rescued. In addition, Just walking in their and killing everyone would be a huge crisis, not to mention the effects on South Korea and Asia in general. Asia doesn't need any more US intervention with three or four rising economic superpowers, one of which may become a military superpower.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
I'd like to add that every western country in the world has performed chemical and/or biological warfare tests on their civilians and every western country in the world has performed missile tests in the past and possibly today. Just like Iran, western countries are condemning NK because they want to keep their upper hand on military technology. Humanitarian help is just a side effect. Seriously.
Western countries don't let millions of their citizens starve or kill thousands of their own citizens for protesting, and the last few times countries with non-Western ideals had military parity with the West about 150 million people died combined in WW1, WW2 and through Communist mass murder of their own citizens. So a Western upper hand on military technology seems pretty preferable for Westerns and non-Westerners alike.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
I'd like to add that every western country in the world has performed chemical and/or biological warfare tests on their civilians and every western country in the world has performed missile tests in the past and possibly today. Just like Iran, western countries are condemning NK because they want to keep their upper hand on military technology. Humanitarian help is just a side effect. Seriously.
Western countries don't let millions of their citizens starve or kill thousands of their own citizens for protesting, and the last few times countries with non-Western ideals had military parity with the West about 150 million people died combined in WW1, WW2 and through Communist mass murder of their own citizens. So a Western upper hand on military technology seems pretty preferable for Westerns and non-Westerners alike.
WW1 and WW2 to a degree were wars between western countries. And ideals have not much to do with it. Western countries claimed the same ideals in the past and it did not prevent them from killing thousands of their own citizens or even starving their citizens. Not even mentioning that even in the West people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology, thankfully not on such a scale as in NK.
There are good reasons why world should try to make the current NK regime go away, but it needs to be done reasonably and West does not have a good track record with that lately. The change needs to mainly come from NK itself otherwise it will be another clusterfuck. What "West" is doing has nothing to do with welfare of NK population, but their own national interests as is nearly always (and always was) the case. And it is extremely hypocritical for them to try to prevent other nations from develping rockets or nukes under the umbrella of standard condemnations used by "West" against Iran or NK. Destabilizing region, really, hmm, what has US been doing last 50 years all over the world ? There are good things to condemn NK for without being complete hypocrite. There are rather few things to condemn Iran for without condemning basically whole Middle East even harder and yet here we are.
However I would be interested what he meant by western countries (or even NK) testing chemical and biological weapons on their populations. I would not be terribly surprised, but is it actually a fact ?
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
I wonder if I can finally watch online news articles about this where they stop refering to the obvious rocket as a "missile" now? The serious bias in reporting makes it hard to follow what happens properly and actually to an extent gives excuses to hide behind for those who would obfuscate the actual issues with NK.
WW1 and WW2 to a degree were wars between western countries. And ideals have not much to do with it. Western countries claimed the same ideals in the past and it did not prevent them from killing thousands of their own citizens or even starving their citizens. Not even mentioning that even in the West people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology, thankfully not on such a scale as in NK.
Well that's totally factually wrong, but you can believe what you wish. Neither the Central Powers nor Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan or Communist Russia and China were considered Western countries at the time, Imperial and Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy being the exceptions, and they certainly weren't practicing Western ideals as they were thought of at the time or today. Germany was both times (eventually, in the case of Imperial Germany and almost instantly as Nazi Germany) viewed as an irrational and dangerous aberration and Italy was considered a joke.
Also that's a weaselly little statement, that people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology in the West, as I'm sure you're well aware that there is a difference between deliberate creation of human death and suffering and/or callous disregard for human life and suffering, and the kind of suffering in Western countries - almost entirely extinguished three or four generations ago - you're incorrectly implying has an equivalence. Mild agitprop is what you're doing, plain and simple. And trying to CYA with "thankfully not on such a scale" doesn't work, you're still implying a moral equivalence between the two which does not exist.
On April 15 2012 02:00 Blasterion wrote: But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
You're already feeding them, and so are the South Koreans, through food aid.
On April 15 2012 02:00 Blasterion wrote: But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
You're already feeding them, and so are the South Koreans, through food aid.
Yeah but that's because we wouldn't have to house them, I certainly don't like the idea of feeding them either, I think we should just give them a good ol'
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Nice genocidal thoughts.
EDIT: to expand. Saving them does not mean you necessarily need to let them immigrate. Just removing their leadership would be enough. But if you are not wanting to save them at all, then there is no reason to remove their leadership and cause additional suffering as they are not threatening you. So if you want to kill civilians just because you want to kill them, you are proposing genocide just because you feel like it.
On April 13 2012 16:25 emc wrote: I don't think N. Korea is stupid enough to actually fire a nuke at a country, testing is something completely different and I think it's for defensive measures. I believe NK just wants to be left alone and fears that eventually they will be attacked, so this is their defense research. If they were stupid enough to attack, then they'd have to realize that yes a nuke might kill a lot of people but we'd wipe out NK from existence, NK would have zero chance of survival and we'd definitely know it was them. It's pretty easy to tell where a missile is launched from which is why I hope for everyones sake, NK is a lot smarter than that.
China is the cause of this cancer, and they should be the ones to fix it.
What does China have to do with North Korea being retarded? The only reason why China is still allied with North Korea is because they can use it as leverage against America. Last time I checked, China didn't spread propaganda to the North Koreans, and I'm pretty sure if allying with North Korea didn't allow China to have such leverage over America, China would've told them to fuck right off.
Well to start, China is the sole reason that North-Korea exists in the first place.
And second, China is keeping that regime on its feet.
China isn't responsible for making North-Korea as insane as it is, and I never claimed they were, but they are responsible for not pulling the plug on this atrocity.
The USA can fix this abomination with an invasion. China could fix this by putting on the pressure and forcing change. North-Korea remains stable by the grace of China.
But as always, everything is going to fall on the shoulders of the US, and people will whine and complain that the US is playing world police. Good thing someone is when even regional powers like China are too incompetent to sort out their own backyard.
What? China didn't make Korea split into half. Japan and USSR/USA played a much larger role. China was busy dealing with/just dealt with its own civil war.
the rest...I just don't know what to say @@ solve it by invasion from USA? To NK? Even if China let them do it freely, they won't. Cost is too high and there aren't no resources that they want. Add in other factors, risk breaking relationship with China and Russia just because of "human right"? yea, I don't think that would happen. China to "force change" onto NK? China is almost the only country left to have tie with NK and to have any influence on them at all. Why would you break that relationship?
You don't even understand the whole situation and history, how would you call them incompetent when your suggested solutions are as naive as possible - - these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
WW1 and WW2 to a degree were wars between western countries. And ideals have not much to do with it. Western countries claimed the same ideals in the past and it did not prevent them from killing thousands of their own citizens or even starving their citizens. Not even mentioning that even in the West people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology, thankfully not on such a scale as in NK.
Well that's totally factually wrong, but you can believe what you wish. Neither the Central Powers nor Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan or Communist Russia and China were considered Western countries at the time, Imperial and Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy being the exceptions, and they certainly weren't practicing Western ideals as they were thought of at the time or today. Germany was both times (eventually, in the case of Imperial Germany and almost instantly as Nazi Germany) viewed as an irrational and dangerous aberration and Italy was considered a joke.
Also that's a weaselly little statement, that people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology in the West, as I'm sure you're well aware that there is a difference between deliberate creation of human death and suffering and/or callous disregard for human life and suffering, and the kind of suffering in Western countries - almost entirely extinguished three or four generations ago - you're incorrectly implying has an equivalence. Mild agitprop is what you're doing, plain and simple. And trying to CYA with "thankfully not on such a scale" doesn't work, you're still implying a moral equivalence between the two which does not exist.
If you notice in case of WW2 there was a qualifier "to a degree", so that removes Japan and China from your objection. Germany is/was a western nation. I might grant you Russia. Does not change the fact that western nations were killing each other in millions in both wars. Also your view of Germany before and during WW1 is rather wrong. In WW1 all the big participants (except US) wanted war, it was more of a continuation of the wars from the previous centuries where one nation might start it, but pointing absolute blame is not so easy. If you want blame someone, blame the Austro-Hungary.
As for the rest, I am not implying moral equivalence, that should be clear from my "CYA" (what does that stand for?) when I said "thankfully not on such a scale", thus saying that it is not morally equivalent. On one hand you have me explicitly stating that it is not morally equivalent and on the other hand you have your strange "reading between the lines" that in your world says I am implicating moral equivalence. Maybe you should actually argue with what I say not with what you think I am saying. I was pointing out that ideals in the west did not prevent them from behaving the same way as NK in the past, and even still let people suffer due to ideology. Because people starve in NK not because the elite wants them to starve, but because the elite wants to adhere to some stupid ideology(their version of marxism) and that causes people to starve. And the same way in the west people suffer because their elites are viewing the world through ideology. Is a western society morally superior, of course. But ideals are very small part of it. That was my point which you managed to misread due to some knee-jerk reactions.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Nice genocidal thoughts.
EDIT: to expand. Saving them does not mean you necessarily need to let them immigrate. Just removing their leadership would be enough. But if you are not wanting to save them at all, then there is no reason to remove their leadership and cause additional suffering as they are not threatening you. So if you want to kill civilians just because you want to kill them, you are proposing genocide just because you feel like it.
I am not saying we should kill them, we just should not be obligated to save them,
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Perhaps I should have you join them and condemn you to starve to death because hey it doesn't affect me after all.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Perhaps I should have you join them and condemn you to starve to death because hey it doesn't affect me after all.
How is it my fault that they are starving, rather why should my country be interested in saving a bunch of refugee that would do nothing more than eat up or resources.
On April 15 2012 03:29 ETisME wrote: What? China didn't make Korea split into half. Japan and USSR/USA played a much larger role. China was busy dealing with/just dealt with its own civil war.
China didn't make Korea split in half...
Except for the part where they moved their troops into North-Korea to fight America and maintain the split.
Had China done nothing, there would only be one Korea, and it would be a unified Korea that would be just as prosperous (more so probably because the North had most of the intellectuals) as South-Korea is today.
People wouldn't be starving, eating mud, grass, each other. There wouldn't be totalitarianism of the worst kind and a nuclear threat that destablizes the entire Asian region.
The USSR made the North-Korea the first time. China made it the second.
the rest...I just don't know what to say @@ solve it by invasion from USA? To NK? Even if China let them do it freely, they won't. Cost is too high and there aren't no resources that they want. Add in other factors, risk breaking relationship with China and Russia just because of "human right"? yea, I don't think that would happen.
It happened in Iraq. The US didn't take a single drop of oil and improved the human rights record of the country by a ridiculous degree.
By and large, human rights have flourished since America became a super power, and often by direct intervention, not just cultural projection.
China to "force change" onto NK? China is almost the only country left to have tie with NK and to have any influence on them at all. Why would you break that relationship?
China is the only country that has influence over NK?
I wonder why I pointed to them as being the country that has to get change in North-Korea...Surely, it can't be because they have the influence to get it done...
You don't even understand the whole situation and history, how would you call them incompetent when your suggested solutions are as naive as possible - -
I don't think you understand the word naive.
The word you were looking for was 'realistic'.
these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
China is short-sighted, and by extension, stupid.
Not touching the problem means it will fester, but it also means it won't explode today.
If you have a tumor, you can ignore it and you will be fine for a while. You can also get chemo, you will be sick, but you will cure the cancer and be better for it in the long run.
China is playing the short game, ignoring the tumor that is North-Korea, because they don't want to make the hard choice of forcing change and improving the situation in the long haul.
China has no benefit from North-Korea. The often mentioned "buffer state" is beyond uninformed, it is downright dishonest.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Perhaps I should have you join them and condemn you to starve to death because hey it doesn't affect me after all.
How is it my fault that they are starving, rather why should my country be interested in saving a bunch of refugee that would do nothing more than eat up or resources.
So basically they can "fuck off and die" to you because they were born in the wrong country? Great mindset you got there.
WW1 and WW2 to a degree were wars between western countries. And ideals have not much to do with it. Western countries claimed the same ideals in the past and it did not prevent them from killing thousands of their own citizens or even starving their citizens. Not even mentioning that even in the West people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology, thankfully not on such a scale as in NK.
Well that's totally factually wrong, but you can believe what you wish. Neither the Central Powers nor Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan or Communist Russia and China were considered Western countries at the time, Imperial and Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy being the exceptions, and they certainly weren't practicing Western ideals as they were thought of at the time or today. Germany was both times (eventually, in the case of Imperial Germany and almost instantly as Nazi Germany) viewed as an irrational and dangerous aberration and Italy was considered a joke.
Also that's a weaselly little statement, that people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology in the West, as I'm sure you're well aware that there is a difference between deliberate creation of human death and suffering and/or callous disregard for human life and suffering, and the kind of suffering in Western countries - almost entirely extinguished three or four generations ago - you're incorrectly implying has an equivalence. Mild agitprop is what you're doing, plain and simple. And trying to CYA with "thankfully not on such a scale" doesn't work, you're still implying a moral equivalence between the two which does not exist.
If you notice in case of WW2 there was a qualifier "to a degree", so that removes Japan and China from your objection. Germany is/was a western nation. I might grant you Russia. Does not change the fact that western nations were killing each other in millions in both wars. Also your view of Germany before and during WW1 is rather wrong. In WW1 all the big participants (except US) wanted war, it was more of a continuation of the wars from the previous centuries where one nation might start it, but pointing absolute blame is not so easy. If you want blame someone, blame the Austro-Hungary.
As for the rest, I am not implying moral equivalence, that should be clear from my "CYA" (what does that stand for?) when I said "thankfully not on such a scale", thus saying that it is not morally equivalent. On one hand you have me explicitly stating that it is not morally equivalent and on the other hand you have your strange "reading between the lines" that in your world says I am implicating moral equivalence. Maybe you should actually argue with what I say not with what you think I am saying. I was pointing out that ideals in the west did not prevent them from behaving the same way as NK in the past, and even still let people suffer due to ideology. Because people starve in NK not because the elite wants them to starve, but because the elite wants to adhere to some stupid ideology(their version of marxism) and that causes people to starve. And the same way in the west people suffer because their elites are viewing the world through ideology. Is a western society morally superior, of course. But ideals are very small part of it. That was my point which you managed to misread due to some knee-jerk reactions.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Perhaps I should have you join them and condemn you to starve to death because hey it doesn't affect me after all.
How is it my fault that they are starving, rather why should my country be interested in saving a bunch of refugee that would do nothing more than eat up or resources.
So basically they can "fuck off and die" to you because they were born in the wrong country? Great mindset you got there.
You guys are totally taking his words the wrong way.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Perhaps I should have you join them and condemn you to starve to death because hey it doesn't affect me after all.
How is it my fault that they are starving, rather why should my country be interested in saving a bunch of refugee that would do nothing more than eat up or resources.
So basically they can "fuck off and die" to you because they were born in the wrong country? Great mindset you got there.
why dont you go join them and try to help them, instead of being a dick too all the people that dissagree with you. have u done anything for them other than complain on the internet about this?
If you notice in case of WW2 there was a qualifier "to a degree", so that removes Japan and China from your objection. Germany is/was a western nation. I might grant you Russia. Does not change the fact that western nations were killing each other in millions in both wars. Also your view of Germany before and during WW1 is rather wrong. In WW1 all the big participants (except US) wanted war, it was more of a continuation of the wars from the previous centuries where one nation might start it, but pointing absolute blame is not so easy. If you want blame someone, blame the Austro-Hungary.
There was no qualifier, it's pretty settled that in both in WW1 and WW2 the losing powers were not acting in a way compatible with Western ideals, e.g. the invasion of neutral Belgium, the violent and repressive nature of German occupation in Belgium and northern France (though it was nowhere near the degree that Allied propaganda portrayed it as), and the entirety of Germany and Japan's actions in WW2 being wars of imperial aggression and widespread crimes against humanity as a matter of policy, which is the point I made. This point was hammered home regularly by the Allies in both wars, both in their responses (going to war) and in their treatment of the nations after defeat. Particularly after WW2, the defeated nations were held as having put themselves outside the bounds of civilization and had to prove themselves afterward as having reformed to a degree necessary to be allowed back into consideration as civilized peoples. You can hold stubbornly to your simplistic classification all you like, it doesn't change the facts. It is also pretty settled unless one is an inveterate Stalinist or Maoist that the behavior of Communist Russia and China were also barbaric to the point of being outside the bounds of civilization, although the reckoning for Russia was much less than it was for Germany and Japan and China has not yet had much of a reckoning.
In WW1 none of the participants except Austria-Hungary wanted a war, and none of the powers, including Austria-Hungary, wanted a general European war. The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was at first considered yet another flare-up of the kind that had occurred - and been dealt with without war - for 20 years preceding 1914. It was the decision of Russia to mobilize that started the dominoes falling; the rest of the great powers felt compelled to take the first step in what turned out to be an unstoppable chain reaction to general war. Which is not to blame Russia, Austria-Hungary made the decision to opportunistically declare war on Serbia, after receiving reassurances from Germany that Berlin would back them up. The Germans thought that with their backing AH that neither Russia nor France would mobilize; it was this miscalculation that caused the war.
Just to stress, no power in 1914 wanted a general war.
As for the rest, I am not implying moral equivalence, that should be clear from my "CYA" (what does that stand for?) when I said "thankfully not on such a scale", thus saying that it is not morally equivalent. On one hand you have me explicitly stating that it is not morally equivalent and on the other hand you have your strange "reading between the lines" that in your world says I am implicating moral equivalence. Maybe you should actually argue with what I say not with what you think I am saying. I was pointing out that ideals in the west did not prevent them from behaving the same way as NK in the past, and even still let people suffer due to ideology. Because people starve in NK not because the elite wants them to starve, but because the elite wants to adhere to some stupid ideology(their version of marxism) and that causes people to starve. And the same way in the west people suffer because their elites are viewing the world through ideology. Is a western society morally superior, of course. But ideals are very small part of it. That was my point which you managed to misread due to some knee-jerk reactions.
What you said was in essence that Western nations have not so much room to talk, or a claim to necessity for having superior military technology, as they would like to think they do because they have acted similarly to NK in the past - even though, again, they have not, and you have not proved by evidence or argument, past your very weak assertions about WW1 in particular and Germany in general, that that is the case. All the evidence, how the actions of Germany and Japan were considered then and how they are considered now, shows that you are wrong. Ideals are not a very small part of it, they are the largest part of it. If it were not for the ideal of peace Britain would not have pledged to protect the neutrality of Belgium as a way of maintaining a balance of power in Europe that it was thought would prevent general war. Were it not for the ideal of "if everyone is so strong, no one will want to bring on the devastation of a big fight," and the ideal of better safe than sorry, and the ideals of Wilhelm II of national glory, the militarization of Europe pre-WW1 would not have taken place. Ideals are the building blocks of society, this does not mean that they have to be good. Germany had ideals, Japan had ideals, they would have been great for Aryan Germans and Japanese in general if they had come to fruition, but everyone else did not particularly care for the idea of being exterminated or being slaves for the rest of time.
You said something ignorant and ridiculous by the scale of its ignorance.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Nice genocidal thoughts.
EDIT: to expand. Saving them does not mean you necessarily need to let them immigrate. Just removing their leadership would be enough. But if you are not wanting to save them at all, then there is no reason to remove their leadership and cause additional suffering as they are not threatening you. So if you want to kill civilians just because you want to kill them, you are proposing genocide just because you feel like it.
I am not saying we should kill them, we just should not be obligated to save them,
Ok, but then you reacting to me makes little sense Because I was responding to a poster that wanted to help them by decimating Pyongyang.
WW1 and WW2 to a degree were wars between western countries. And ideals have not much to do with it. Western countries claimed the same ideals in the past and it did not prevent them from killing thousands of their own citizens or even starving their citizens. Not even mentioning that even in the West people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology, thankfully not on such a scale as in NK.
Well that's totally factually wrong, but you can believe what you wish. Neither the Central Powers nor Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan or Communist Russia and China were considered Western countries at the time, Imperial and Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy being the exceptions, and they certainly weren't practicing Western ideals as they were thought of at the time or today. Germany was both times (eventually, in the case of Imperial Germany and almost instantly as Nazi Germany) viewed as an irrational and dangerous aberration and Italy was considered a joke.
Also that's a weaselly little statement, that people are still left to die or suffer because of ideology in the West, as I'm sure you're well aware that there is a difference between deliberate creation of human death and suffering and/or callous disregard for human life and suffering, and the kind of suffering in Western countries - almost entirely extinguished three or four generations ago - you're incorrectly implying has an equivalence. Mild agitprop is what you're doing, plain and simple. And trying to CYA with "thankfully not on such a scale" doesn't work, you're still implying a moral equivalence between the two which does not exist.
If you notice in case of WW2 there was a qualifier "to a degree", so that removes Japan and China from your objection. Germany is/was a western nation. I might grant you Russia. Does not change the fact that western nations were killing each other in millions in both wars. Also your view of Germany before and during WW1 is rather wrong. In WW1 all the big participants (except US) wanted war, it was more of a continuation of the wars from the previous centuries where one nation might start it, but pointing absolute blame is not so easy. If you want blame someone, blame the Austro-Hungary.
As for the rest, I am not implying moral equivalence, that should be clear from my "CYA" (what does that stand for?) when I said "thankfully not on such a scale", thus saying that it is not morally equivalent. On one hand you have me explicitly stating that it is not morally equivalent and on the other hand you have your strange "reading between the lines" that in your world says I am implicating moral equivalence. Maybe you should actually argue with what I say not with what you think I am saying. I was pointing out that ideals in the west did not prevent them from behaving the same way as NK in the past, and even still let people suffer due to ideology. Because people starve in NK not because the elite wants them to starve, but because the elite wants to adhere to some stupid ideology(their version of marxism) and that causes people to starve. And the same way in the west people suffer because their elites are viewing the world through ideology. Is a western society morally superior, of course. But ideals are very small part of it. That was my point which you managed to misread due to some knee-jerk reactions.
Ottoman empire is now western.
Millions died on that front in WW1, or maybe not. Nitpicking does not really contradict my point, which was that western powers in WW1 were killing themselves with millions of casualties.
I just read online the other day, "North Korean missile launch fails" ("Missile" you say?) and then on the same page, "D.C. believes Nuclear testing near for NK." Sosososo, NK has three failed rocket launches (or as the media mistakes them for missiles), thus proving that NK is still a sorry, arrogant nation with no real military might or having any intelligent international agendas, but immediately afterwards, we tell our citizens, "WATCH OUT! DEY MIGHT HAS NUKEZ!" I guess if the population is distracted by some spooky threat, D.C. can't keep fucking us over with their horrible policies.
On April 15 2012 03:29 ETisME wrote: these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
China is short-sighted, and by extension, stupid.
Not touching the problem means it will fester, but it also means it won't explode today.
If you have a tumor, you can ignore it and you will be fine for a while. You can also get chemo, you will be sick, but you will cure the cancer and be better for it in the long run.
China is playing the short game, ignoring the tumor that is North-Korea, because they don't want to make the hard choice of forcing change and improving the situation in the long haul.
China has no benefit from North-Korea. The often mentioned "buffer state" is beyond uninformed, it is downright dishonest.
I disagree with this. Just because North Korea is a problem for western countries, South Korean, Japan ect, doesn't meant it is a big problem for China. You have to know different countries have different goals, so just because it appears illogical in your perspective doesn't meant it is.
If they rid of all problems right now, all focus would land on China, and that is bad for them. A buffer state for all the political attentions sounds about right.
On April 15 2012 03:29 ETisME wrote: these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
China is short-sighted, and by extension, stupid.
Not touching the problem means it will fester, but it also means it won't explode today.
If you have a tumor, you can ignore it and you will be fine for a while. You can also get chemo, you will be sick, but you will cure the cancer and be better for it in the long run.
China is playing the short game, ignoring the tumor that is North-Korea, because they don't want to make the hard choice of forcing change and improving the situation in the long haul.
China has no benefit from North-Korea. The often mentioned "buffer state" is beyond uninformed, it is downright dishonest.
I disagree with this. Just because North Korea is a problem for western countries, South Korean, Japan ect, doesn't meant it is a big problem for China. You have to know different countries have different goals, so just because it appears illogical in your perspective doesn't meant it is.
If they rid of all problems right now, all focus would land on China, and that is bad for them. A buffer state for all the political attentions sounds about right.
If you notice in case of WW2 there was a qualifier "to a degree", so that removes Japan and China from your objection. Germany is/was a western nation. I might grant you Russia. Does not change the fact that western nations were killing each other in millions in both wars. Also your view of Germany before and during WW1 is rather wrong. In WW1 all the big participants (except US) wanted war, it was more of a continuation of the wars from the previous centuries where one nation might start it, but pointing absolute blame is not so easy. If you want blame someone, blame the Austro-Hungary.
There was no qualifier, it's pretty settled that in both in WW1 and WW2 the losing powers were not acting in a way compatible with Western ideals, e.g. the invasion of neutral Belgium, the violent and repressive nature of German occupation in Belgium and northern France (though it was nowhere near the degree that Allied propaganda portrayed it as), and the entirety of Germany and Japan's actions in WW2 being wars of imperial aggression and widespread crimes against humanity as a matter of policy, which is the point I made. This point was hammered home regularly by the Allies in both wars, both in their responses (going to war) and in their treatment of the nations after defeat. Particularly after WW2, the defeated nations were held as having put themselves outside the bounds of civilization and had to prove themselves afterward as having reformed to a degree necessary to be allowed back into consideration as civilized peoples. You can hold stubbornly to your simplistic classification all you like, it doesn't change the facts. It is also pretty settled unless one is an inveterate Stalinist or Maoist that the behavior of Communist Russia and China were also barbaric to the point of being outside the bounds of civilization, although the reckoning for Russia was much less than it was for Germany and Japan and China has not yet had much of a reckoning.
I could care less how you define western yourself. Germany/Austro-Hungary/Italy are culturally western nations with very similar ideals to France and even GB. Ideals are exactly that, practical behaviour is something different. Having ideals does not mean they are followed. So the fact that Germany behaved in some way is beside the point.
On April 15 2012 04:38 DeepElemBlues wrote: In WW1 none of the participants except Austria-Hungary wanted a war, and none of the powers, including Austria-Hungary, wanted a general European war. The assassination of Archduke Ferdinand was at first considered yet another flare-up of the kind that had occurred - and been dealt with without war - for 20 years preceding 1914. It was the decision of Russia to mobilize that started the dominoes falling; the rest of the great powers felt compelled to take the first step in what turned out to be an unstoppable chain reaction to general war. Which is not to blame Russia, Austria-Hungary made the decision to opportunistically declare war on Serbia, after receiving reassurances from Germany that Berlin would back them up. The Germans thought that with their backing AH that neither Russia nor France would mobilize; it was this miscalculation that caused the war.
Just to stress, no power in 1914 wanted a general war.
They did not want general war, true. They all wanted some things that could basically be achieved only by war, thus leading to war. Germany to "rearrange" colonies, French wanted back Alsace and Lotharingia, Austro-Hungary wanted what they actually did, Italy wanted territories from Austro-Hungary and so on. All of them played their game and even though most of them did not want war exactly in 1914, they had their goals that were only achievable by war.
As for the rest, I am not implying moral equivalence, that should be clear from my "CYA" (what does that stand for?) when I said "thankfully not on such a scale", thus saying that it is not morally equivalent. On one hand you have me explicitly stating that it is not morally equivalent and on the other hand you have your strange "reading between the lines" that in your world says I am implicating moral equivalence. Maybe you should actually argue with what I say not with what you think I am saying. I was pointing out that ideals in the west did not prevent them from behaving the same way as NK in the past, and even still let people suffer due to ideology. Because people starve in NK not because the elite wants them to starve, but because the elite wants to adhere to some stupid ideology(their version of marxism) and that causes people to starve. And the same way in the west people suffer because their elites are viewing the world through ideology. Is a western society morally superior, of course. But ideals are very small part of it. That was my point which you managed to misread due to some knee-jerk reactions.
What you said was in essence that Western nations have not so much room to talk, or a claim to necessity for having superior military technology, as they would like to think they do because they have acted similarly to NK in the past - even though, again, they have not, and you have not proved by evidence or argument, past your very weak assertions about WW1 in particular and Germany in general, that that is the case. All the evidence, how the actions of Germany and Japan were considered then and how they are considered now, shows that you are wrong. Ideals are not a very small part of it, they are the largest part of it. If it were not for the ideal of peace Britain would not have pledged to protect the neutrality of Belgium as a way of maintaining a balance of power in Europe that it was thought would prevent general war. Were it not for the ideal of "if everyone is so strong, no one will want to bring on the devastation of a big fight," and the ideal of better safe than sorry, and the ideals of Wilhelm II of national glory, the militarization of Europe pre-WW1 would not have taken place. Ideals are the building blocks of society, this does not mean that they have to be good. Germany had ideals, Japan had ideals, they would have been great for Aryan Germans and Japanese in general if they had come to fruition, but everyone else did not particularly care for the idea of being exterminated or being slaves for the rest of time.
You said something ignorant and ridiculous by the scale of its ignorance.
And again with arguing against something that I did not say, but something that you created in your head. But anyway, to some of your points.You say that England gave guarantee to Belgium because of their ideal of peace. But you mention the actual reason, to keep status quo in Europe. England's behaviour has nothing to do with noble ideas, but with wanting to keep status quo in Europe for their own geopolitical reasons. Nothing to do with ideals, eveything to do with realpolitik. As was my point.
As for western nations behaving like NK, let's see. Artificial famines in India, Ireland. Genocides in America and Africa. That should be enough. And before you argue that it was too long ago. Yes it was, and as I said I am not arguing that they are today not morally superior. I am arguing that ideals have not much to do with it. Proclaimed ideas of US and GB were not really that different than they were later and yet today they (England at least) are actually morally quite superior. What changed was not ideals proclaimed by the nations.
And yes I believe in your mind it is ridiculous seeing as you argue against things I never said.
On April 14 2012 05:25 Crownlol wrote: NK is the joke of the world.
The sad part is, millions of people are starving in there. Even China is getting fed up with their bullshit.
If we had any humanitarian bones in our bodies, we'd have decimated Pyongyang and liberated the NK people already. It's heartbreaking.
NK tests chemical and biological warfare agents on civilian South Koreans... disgusting.
The problem with that is that decimating Pyongyang would have killed quite a lot of those people you are trying to save, not mentioning probably quite high deathtoll in South Korea.
But what if we are not really interested in Saving them, we just want NK out of the way. Besides who's going to feed these dirt broke refugees, I definitely don't want them coming over here. I doubt the South Koreans would want to feed them either.
Nice genocidal thoughts.
EDIT: to expand. Saving them does not mean you necessarily need to let them immigrate. Just removing their leadership would be enough. But if you are not wanting to save them at all, then there is no reason to remove their leadership and cause additional suffering as they are not threatening you. So if you want to kill civilians just because you want to kill them, you are proposing genocide just because you feel like it.
I am not saying we should kill them, we just should not be obligated to save them,
Ok, but then you reacting to me makes little sense Because I was responding to a poster that wanted to help them by decimating Pyongyang.
I see i thought you were saying that choosing not to save them would be genocidal.
I heard they failed big time. I can't believe for the life of me that after 2 major global wars and thousands of national and civil/political wars, people in the world still espouse the idea of violence and aggression towards others.
On April 15 2012 03:29 ETisME wrote: What? China didn't make Korea split into half. Japan and USSR/USA played a much larger role. China was busy dealing with/just dealt with its own civil war.
China didn't make Korea split in half...
Except for the part where they moved their troops into North-Korea to fight America and maintain the split.
Had China done nothing, there would only be one Korea, and it would be a unified Korea that would be just as prosperous (more so probably because the North had most of the intellectuals) as South-Korea is today.
People wouldn't be starving, eating mud, grass, each other. There wouldn't be totalitarianism of the worst kind and a nuclear threat that destablizes the entire Asian region.
The USSR made the North-Korea the first time. China made it the second.
the rest...I just don't know what to say @@ solve it by invasion from USA? To NK? Even if China let them do it freely, they won't. Cost is too high and there aren't no resources that they want. Add in other factors, risk breaking relationship with China and Russia just because of "human right"? yea, I don't think that would happen.
It happened in Iraq. The US didn't take a single drop of oil and improved the human rights record of the country by a ridiculous degree.
By and large, human rights have flourished since America became a super power, and often by direct intervention, not just cultural projection.
China to "force change" onto NK? China is almost the only country left to have tie with NK and to have any influence on them at all. Why would you break that relationship?
China is the only country that has influence over NK?
I wonder why I pointed to them as being the country that has to get change in North-Korea...Surely, it can't be because they have the influence to get it done...
You don't even understand the whole situation and history, how would you call them incompetent when your suggested solutions are as naive as possible - -
these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
China is short-sighted, and by extension, stupid.
Not touching the problem means it will fester, but it also means it won't explode today.
If you have a tumor, you can ignore it and you will be fine for a while. You can also get chemo, you will be sick, but you will cure the cancer and be better for it in the long run.
China is playing the short game, ignoring the tumor that is North-Korea, because they don't want to make the hard choice of forcing change and improving the situation in the long haul.
China has no benefit from North-Korea. The often mentioned "buffer state" is beyond uninformed, it is downright dishonest.
The same thing could have been said about USA, Japan and USSR. If they didn't start anything over in Korea, it won't even be in half anyway. And yet you say China is the one that caused the cancer lol
There is a difference between not touching the problem than letting the problem resolve through other means. Let's use your cancer example. Taking an operation means much more than healing back. Cancer cells could have spread, operation could have failed which encourages even more cancer cell growth. While you could choose to use medicine to slow down the growth and prevent any spread and then do the operation when you are at a healthy state
It only looks short sighted etcetc because you don't know the situation clearly. i.e. how sensitive this issue is with the whole global balanceness. It isn't as simple as removing NK = bring happiness to everyone.
On April 15 2012 03:29 ETisME wrote: What? China didn't make Korea split into half. Japan and USSR/USA played a much larger role. China was busy dealing with/just dealt with its own civil war.
China didn't make Korea split in half...
Except for the part where they moved their troops into North-Korea to fight America and maintain the split.
Had China done nothing, there would only be one Korea, and it would be a unified Korea that would be just as prosperous (more so probably because the North had most of the intellectuals) as South-Korea is today.
People wouldn't be starving, eating mud, grass, each other. There wouldn't be totalitarianism of the worst kind and a nuclear threat that destablizes the entire Asian region.
The USSR made the North-Korea the first time. China made it the second.
the rest...I just don't know what to say @@ solve it by invasion from USA? To NK? Even if China let them do it freely, they won't. Cost is too high and there aren't no resources that they want. Add in other factors, risk breaking relationship with China and Russia just because of "human right"? yea, I don't think that would happen.
It happened in Iraq. The US didn't take a single drop of oil and improved the human rights record of the country by a ridiculous degree.
By and large, human rights have flourished since America became a super power, and often by direct intervention, not just cultural projection.
China to "force change" onto NK? China is almost the only country left to have tie with NK and to have any influence on them at all. Why would you break that relationship?
China is the only country that has influence over NK?
I wonder why I pointed to them as being the country that has to get change in North-Korea...Surely, it can't be because they have the influence to get it done...
You don't even understand the whole situation and history, how would you call them incompetent when your suggested solutions are as naive as possible - -
I don't think you understand the word naive.
The word you were looking for was 'realistic'.
these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
China is short-sighted, and by extension, stupid.
Not touching the problem means it will fester, but it also means it won't explode today.
If you have a tumor, you can ignore it and you will be fine for a while. You can also get chemo, you will be sick, but you will cure the cancer and be better for it in the long run.
China is playing the short game, ignoring the tumor that is North-Korea, because they don't want to make the hard choice of forcing change and improving the situation in the long haul.
China has no benefit from North-Korea. The often mentioned "buffer state" is beyond uninformed, it is downright dishonest.
The same thing could have been said about USA, Japan and USSR. If they didn't start anything over in Korea, it won't even be in half anyway. And yet you say China is the one that caused the cancer lol
There is a difference between not touching the problem than letting the problem resolve through other means. Let's use your cancer example. Taking an operation means much more than healing back. Cancer cells could have spread, operation could have failed which encourages even more cancer cell growth. While you could choose to use medicine to slow down the growth and prevent any spread and then do the operation when you are at a healthy state
It only looks short sighted etcetc because you don't know the situation clearly. i.e. how sensitive this issue is with the whole global balanceness. It isn't as simple as removing NK = bring happiness to everyone.
Even if the oil companies won the bid they wouldn't get the oil. The article you linked to pointed out that they were bidding on service contracts - not ownership of the oil. Furthermore, there's a huge difference between bidding on something being sold and taking it by force.
I'll totally agree that removing NK is extremely complicated. A war would potentially be disastrous for South Korea. Even if that could be avoided China and South Korea would have a huge refugee and humanitarian crisis on their hands.
That said, there is already a humanitarian crisis in NK. We just don't get to see it every day and so it is easy to ignore.
On April 15 2012 03:29 ETisME wrote: What? China didn't make Korea split into half. Japan and USSR/USA played a much larger role. China was busy dealing with/just dealt with its own civil war.
China didn't make Korea split in half...
Except for the part where they moved their troops into North-Korea to fight America and maintain the split.
Had China done nothing, there would only be one Korea, and it would be a unified Korea that would be just as prosperous (more so probably because the North had most of the intellectuals) as South-Korea is today.
People wouldn't be starving, eating mud, grass, each other. There wouldn't be totalitarianism of the worst kind and a nuclear threat that destablizes the entire Asian region.
The USSR made the North-Korea the first time. China made it the second.
the rest...I just don't know what to say @@ solve it by invasion from USA? To NK? Even if China let them do it freely, they won't. Cost is too high and there aren't no resources that they want. Add in other factors, risk breaking relationship with China and Russia just because of "human right"? yea, I don't think that would happen.
It happened in Iraq. The US didn't take a single drop of oil and improved the human rights record of the country by a ridiculous degree.
By and large, human rights have flourished since America became a super power, and often by direct intervention, not just cultural projection.
China to "force change" onto NK? China is almost the only country left to have tie with NK and to have any influence on them at all. Why would you break that relationship?
China is the only country that has influence over NK?
I wonder why I pointed to them as being the country that has to get change in North-Korea...Surely, it can't be because they have the influence to get it done...
You don't even understand the whole situation and history, how would you call them incompetent when your suggested solutions are as naive as possible - -
I don't think you understand the word naive.
The word you were looking for was 'realistic'.
these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
China is short-sighted, and by extension, stupid.
Not touching the problem means it will fester, but it also means it won't explode today.
If you have a tumor, you can ignore it and you will be fine for a while. You can also get chemo, you will be sick, but you will cure the cancer and be better for it in the long run.
China is playing the short game, ignoring the tumor that is North-Korea, because they don't want to make the hard choice of forcing change and improving the situation in the long haul.
China has no benefit from North-Korea. The often mentioned "buffer state" is beyond uninformed, it is downright dishonest.
The same thing could have been said about USA, Japan and USSR. If they didn't start anything over in Korea, it won't even be in half anyway. And yet you say China is the one that caused the cancer lol
There is a difference between not touching the problem than letting the problem resolve through other means. Let's use your cancer example. Taking an operation means much more than healing back. Cancer cells could have spread, operation could have failed which encourages even more cancer cell growth. While you could choose to use medicine to slow down the growth and prevent any spread and then do the operation when you are at a healthy state
It only looks short sighted etcetc because you don't know the situation clearly. i.e. how sensitive this issue is with the whole global balanceness. It isn't as simple as removing NK = bring happiness to everyone.
You are all over the place. You even lose track of your own logic.
First of all, you don't even read your own 'sources', if you did you would realize how silly you looked by linking that one which has barely anything to do with the oil.
Then you forget the difference between stealing and buying. Apparently you think me a thief when I walk into a store and pay money for something.
Then you proceed to act erratic by completely missing the point. You somehow forget that the issue was North-Korea, not the cancer example, which was just a comparison. You proceed to 'solve' the comparison, which doesn't really do anything other than display your inability to keep track of the discussion.
Remove NK = hapiness for anyone that cares for human rights. That won't include everyone, you probably wouldn't like it, but most people will appreciate it and be happier for it.
On April 15 2012 03:29 ETisME wrote: these people aren't as stupid as you would think. especially when it comes to China which is trying to establish a global presence in world power and trying to come off as not threatening as possible.
China is short-sighted, and by extension, stupid.
Not touching the problem means it will fester, but it also means it won't explode today.
If you have a tumor, you can ignore it and you will be fine for a while. You can also get chemo, you will be sick, but you will cure the cancer and be better for it in the long run.
China is playing the short game, ignoring the tumor that is North-Korea, because they don't want to make the hard choice of forcing change and improving the situation in the long haul.
China has no benefit from North-Korea. The often mentioned "buffer state" is beyond uninformed, it is downright dishonest.
I disagree with this. Just because North Korea is a problem for western countries, South Korean, Japan ect, doesn't meant it is a big problem for China. You have to know different countries have different goals, so just because it appears illogical in your perspective doesn't meant it is.
If they rid of all problems right now, all focus would land on China, and that is bad for them. A buffer state for all the political attentions sounds about right.
China doesn't like NK, it certainly doesn't use it as a buffer state. The wikileak documents show this much.
China only wants one thing, to keep the region as stable as possible. Why? Because their economy is booming and they want to ride that wave for as long as it lasts, which makes sense.
A "buffer state for all the political attention" is a naive view of how the world works. If China were to suddenly have a major crackdown on the population, it would get reported on.
You don't honestly think that China keeps NK next to them because the media would then only report on NK? Because that is what you are implying with "buffer state for political attention."
The world isn't simplistic. China doesn't get ignored just because they have an even more insane neighbour.
China escapes any massive media backlash because they don't have a free media and their day-to-day affairs are too alien for most people to care about. Add to that the fact that they are a big part of the world economy and you can see why there aren't many governments interested in kicking the dog either.
The (low) level of discourse in this thread is Alzheimer's-inducing. The ignorance meter has just been cranked to 11.
For the record, any time any nation state announces plans to develop and test ballistics technology in the professed name of space exploration, scientitifc research, near-Earth orbit satellite deployment and the like, that's code for "we'd like to develop and test intercontinental missile delivery systems, but can't say that publicly so we'll call it science instead and laugh while 99% of the obviously braindead people of the world believe what we say, haha".
I'm talking about Japan, Korea (South), India, etc., all part of the club of nations that have made in recent years seemingly innocuous announcements about the launching of satellites, the research and development of related "rocket technology", etc. Space race? Rockets? Missiles? Get a clue people, the technology and engineering are for practical purposes identical.
Of course, the US, China, Russia, UK, France (ie The Fab Five of the UN Security Council) don't need to play that game because, well, they got there first and then made up rules to stop anyone else from achieving essentially the same capability. If you want to talk about the destabilizing proliferation of long-range armament delivery systems, look no further than the governments operating in your back yard.
Unless you live in Sweden, in which case all you care about is video games and ABBA.
North Korea? Please. They are hanging on by their finger nails. They pose no more credible threat to the US than does Cuba.
Space programs in those countries are very real things. The sad truth of life is that anything good can just as likely be turned into something very bad. Discrediting them, or space exploration as a whole, as it currently uses rocket propulsion in much of the world is a very dirty thing.
That being said, North Korea is probably just doing the same thing they've always been doing since as long as I can remember. Showing off their shiny missiles, their atomic weapons, and saying "You guys like Seoul right? Why not give us some food so we can just put these back into storage for a bit."
You are being naive. No matter how romantic the endeavor, nations do not spend billions of dollars to fund space exploration programs if that were the primary objective. Military application first, fantastic idealism second. That conclusion would only seem controversial to someone who has never had meaningful responsibilities. Like most students.