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Korea (South)1897 Posts
Corporate Executive SeriesPart 2 The Ladder Well, apologies in general for the length of time things have been taking to get content out the door. Truthfully I'm drowning to close a massive deal and the longer it takes, the more complex it has been getting. I'm in the eye of the storm right now with just a few hours of breathing space as everything is in everyone else's court but my own - meaning I'm waiting for documents to come back to me. So I wanted to bang this out pronto. Climbing the Corporate ladderNow lets say, you've joined a company or any organization and it is a company where you'd like to be at and for most people it the decision to put down roots is based on: (a) you like the job and the company, (b) there is room for promotion and you're happy with the compensation & (c) you fit in well with the company culture. That being said, what you want and what you know now can change drastically for the better or worse when it comes to climbing the corporate ladder, e.g. getting promoted, getting more security, not getting fired, getting your maximum bonus, having more responsibility and getting pay raises and such. But at the heart of it is really getting promotions as they lead to the rest of the good things. What this series is about is not my own speculation of how to get to the top, I'm not some senior in college who has hear this or that in how to get to the top, I've been to the top and I've done the following below. It isn't easy, it isn't pretty and it gets to be down right brutal, but if you've decided to compete with the lions and buy into the entire climb the corporate ladder and be the CEO one day, this is my straight up thoughts and views on it. But when you play this game, you play to not just win, but to destroy and salt the earth after each victory cause the stakes are real and your foes will do the same or worse than you. Cause everyday your are in a high powered corporate structure, you are competing and you will need to sacrifice your time with your family, you health and test you mental strength. Of course every freaking fortune 500 CEO will say at a graduation commencement speech that if they could do it again, they would have more balance, but that is all bullshit, cause if they did have more of a balanced approached, they wouldn't be the CEO giving you a bullshit speech and accepting another honorary degree as well. Even if you've decided not to engage in going hardcore up the corporate ladder, at least if you read this, you can defend against some asshole hack trying to use you as a stepping stone. The Foundation: 3 YearsLet's assume that you're in a big company, say with at least 20-50M in annual revenue with at least 500 employees. Ok, so when you start, you aren't going to be engaged in much corporate ladder crap, rather, it is about doing and learning your job. Most of the crap you will encounter are petty middle managers or interpersonal crap between colleagues like every over organization in the world. So stop your whining, the situation is nothing special so just concentrate on learning your job and begin great at it and putting yourself in a position to learn more. Cause right now, you're in entry level ville and your stupid retarded middle manager will be there 10 years later when you're VP anyway, so let it go and just do your job with all the interpersonal crap that comes with it. Cause if you can't even handle that, you're screwed anyway and will never be management. Management is when you have targets to hit, sales or productivity or whatever. It's when you have to do reporting to someone above you that takes into consideration a part of the company you handle. And its when promotions really take on a great deal more responsibility. For major corporations, this generally starts after your MBA (masters in business admin) or some Masters grad school degree. But to rewind for a second, and I've written about this before. You hear a lot of about having the need for 3 years of experience when you're an entry level person. And a lot of people don't understand why it is 3 years; the reason is: 1st year you actually learn the job; and it does take a year to learn it if it is part of a major corporation. Why? Because different times in the year have different priorities and your job will change as the sale or fiscal season changes. Until you've worked an entire year, you wouldn't have been exposed to everything your job entails. And it goes without saying that if in 2 weeks you know everything about your job, well it ain't much of job cause then that means that any other peon/probe/drone/scv could do your job, so stop thinking stupid shit and get with context here. We're talking about the corporate management level here. So you finish one year and you think, 'hell that is enough, I'm ready for the big times'. And you're not. Cause by the 2nd year, what you should acquire is the ability to actually improve on your job role, to see what can be done better, faster and more efficiently; to gain that mastery over your role and set a strong foundation for moving forward. But then by the start of the 3rd year, why are you still there? Cause by the 3rd year, you should be able to train someone to fully take over your job and feed them whatever insight and understanding you've gained and also by doing so you also are able to articulate what you've learned. In the 3rd year you've acquired a level of professionalism in knowing what your managers really expect and if need be, set up a division for them for your job role. Now by this time, you're the ideal worker drone; you know your job, nothing will faze you and you can even train other worker drones. So now it's time to go: executive skip middle management. What is an Executive?There ain't nothing like being an executive of a major corporation with your expense account, business class flights, own secretaries and people kissing ass to you to try to get your business. It's a sweet gig, but of course that is just the superficial view of it, but if that is what you're after, you're never gonna get it. Why? Cause if you really want to get that, you need to be hunger, ambitious and go full on competitive; cause that is what you are up against. You ain't up against some Quakers who are doing business, you're up against kids who have gone to the best schools that they could get into, worked just as hard as you and want that corner office and company Lexus as well. So the most straight forward way, after you're entry level mastery is to get an MBA; working your way up via middle management is possible, but it is highly unlikely you'll break into executive management because of the reasons in the last paragraph. There is this massive divide from middle management to executive management and it is the MBA or an equivalent masters degree that bridges that gap (but in business you need to have that entry level mastery first or else you're just an impotent business brainiac who will suck at business- business is all based on experience first, theory second). The Tour of Duty: Sergeant vs Lieutenant Again an analogy I've used before in my blogs. The difference between exec and non-exec comes down to the divide between planning and operating. While they are both one and the same in terms that all business involves both, the degree in which you are more planning and operational vary a lot. And they are totally different skill sets. For instance: you can be a great sniper, the best, but you can be a shitty general. It's like every Vietnam American war movie, the Sergeant who has been on 3 tours of duties knows everything while his preppy dick head college educated lieutenant knows dick all and without the Sergeant, would have been killed 3 times already. But still the Sergeant needs to listen to the lieutenant, why? Cause the lieutenant knows what the overall plan for war is, the strategy, he gets it. The lieutenant says,' we have to capture that hill now' and the 'Sergeant says, ' that is crazy sir, we'll loose half our platoon, for no good reason, if we wait 3 days, we can take it without the causalities.' But the lieutenant says, 'no we need to take it now' and the Sergeant says, 'fuck my life sir but ok,' But the strategic importance may be lost on the Sergeant, even if his assessment is 100% correct, but by getting that hill or putting pressure it, it may cause the Viet Cong to take pressure off a key supply route that is critical to another front which is on the verge of completely getting fucked even more. Is the Sergeant or the lieutenant wrong? No they aren't and the more communication between them will give the Sergeant more motivation to do his job and more efficiency for the lieutenant to do give feed back for the planning, but the skill sets are completely different. As an executive, I don't call the advertising company to actually buy advertisements, someone else does that, but I do make the decision on how much we will spend, budget, as well as what types of media we want to focus on. Now if my media buyers are great then they will maximize my media spend (like for $10k, they get me 5 months in a major magazine's inside back cover, rather than just 3 months), then, its great as it helps to get the result, but I'm not going to spend an hour to do that myself, rather I'm going to be mainly making a lot of decisions on a lot of areas and for those people go off and actually execute it properly. So we've defined the basics here, the foundation- and sorry kids, getting an MBA is one of those check marks that you need to fulfill to get into the executive box, even guys who have worked their way up from middle management eventually take time off to get some type of 'executive MBA', like a certificate from a school, like Harvard summer school, so they can at least have something to hang up on the wall- but lets now get into the nitty gritty of it all. The fight. The FightThe fight is composed of 3 areas: results, work ethic, and reporting. And victory comes when you fight with sincerity and decisiveness. Sounds freaking simple, and perhaps stupid, but this is as good as it is going to get and if your dad's have trouble at work getting promoted you can show'em this post as well, cause it ain't common knowledge. ResultsHey goes without saying right? There comes a point where your line managers actually aren't retards, actually do see through petty political maneuvering and bullshit that your colleagues actually got away with when you were entry level or middle management level, but at the executive level, they can see who is capable or not (most of the time). When it comes to the executive level, you do live and die by your results and those who don't get results quarter after quarter, will get fired no matter how much they are able to bullshit. But that being said, there are executives how do slip through the cracks and if you do get one of these motherfuckers who are simply using you to hold on to their position for a bit longer, life can be hell cause you really are getting exploited. But if you are patient and do the next two steps properly, you can give your line manager the big fuck off send off in about 12 months. But regardless, you need to own the result and the result needs to be tied to growing business or acquiring new business or increasing profitability. A lot of times you'd think the guy who saves a project from the shitter or is the main go-to-guy to fix problems that no one else can fix i.e. the fixer, and has the confidence of the CEO is the one to get promoted, but he/she isn't. Cause no one celebrates saving something that someone fucked up, they all just sigh in relief, but when you get new clients, grow into new markets, and make the company more profitable, -when you show da money- that is when every breaks out the bubbly, and that is what results are all about. Let someone else be the shit shoveler of other peoples fuck ups, you just concentrate on bringing the money and fixing your own fuck ups. Work EthicThe managers that matter to you, need to see work harder, not longer, but harder. That doesn't mean sitting at the desk the longest or coming in earliest, but rather it means that if you're capable of pumping out good results then you just increase the output of it. It means when people look at you, they have a nick name for you, 'the beast, the killer, the closer'. It means that they know that when you get into a deal, you're gonna close it and get the best out of it, and that you're consistent and not only do you have the best results, you have most. How do you do this? Well it comes to really knowing your job, then taking every opportunity you can that is in the scope of your job and focusing on every detail and exhausting every angle. In this way, Steve Jobs rules, you could said he was a bit nuts, but it wasn't just his single results that makes him a legend, just the ipod and itunes alone could do it, but fml, the iphone, the ipad - holy shit- it's all Steve Jobs, but compounded upon compounded results making him a huge cut above the rest. In the same way, whatever you do great, you just keep at and keep pumping it out and yes it involves working 3 days straight, not seeing your family for a month and missing your workouts and drinking a few bottles of whiskey to close the deal. It requires you to sacrifice more than anyone should and go to the brink and sometimes fall off, but at the end of the day, if you don't, someone else will and if the cost is too much, then just step off the train, it's cool. But if you wanna be on the train, and go this way, then this is what you have to do. But at the start of this is: your results need to be great, better than your peers, the rising star, and then you need to outpace the rest. ReportingThis is how the office politics are really played out with the big boys. In shitty companies where no one is really doing great work, where the company isn't market leader or the top of their industry, sure, it's all about interpersonal politics, but when it comes to companies with plus 1000 employees and are competing hardcore with other companies for just .5% more market share, it comes down to results, work ethic, and the glue that bring it all together- reporting. What reporting means is basically preparing a documentation or presentation of your results to your line managers or higher ups. Thing is, if there isn't much gap between you and your line manager in terms of corporate position and your line manage is really a hack (just going through the motions), then what your line manager will do is simply 'out report' you and even report your own results and credit it to you, but put them in the context of their own results (they didn't get there cause they were that dumb). Thus taking the steam out of your results or making it appear that this wasn't something amazing, but rather part of their master plan, thus keeping your score at zero. Now, for most guys, they think the first 2 points are enough, but it simply isn't enough. Your line managers are not mind readers and the hire up you go, the more scope you have to deal with. Your line manager may make you feel like a superstar, but you're just one 15 min meeting out of his entire day of talking with Tokyo, Paris and NY. But also, while you are busting your hump to get results, your competing line manger maybe isn't. That cocksucker is compiling everyone's results and spending 80% of his time working on some really awesome report that looks like some gloss stock analyst report, with all the bells and whistles, meanwhile you're just writing a 5 paragraph text email about your latest win, cause you got 3 other pending projects on the table. But to the eyes of the senior executives, they can't help but put you in the same context or place in which your own line manager has put you in- because they simply also don't have enough time to assume otherwise. In time though- a hack line manager will always be called out cause a coup will eventually occur- but to save yourself 2 years of slavery, rather than just 1 (but you'll have to endure at least 1 anyway) you're going to have to have to go the final distance or all will be for naught- i.e. why kill and sacrifice yourself for some other cock sucker. If this has been going on then: (i) don't just causally report and give hard figures to your line manager right away, if they are asking for it, then they are preparing their own report. Rather, just say you'll get it to them, then (ii) make your own report much better than you normally do. Even if you're on your last breath, don't skip any details, remember your training as an entry level analyst and make the document with all the bells and whistles, then (iii) forward you report to your line manager while cc'ing your higher ups, with a nice email text into, putting the report attached as your win. Thus, you've followed proper protocol, and you include, as per your 'line manager's' instructions' in the email, but the report is all done by you, and your line manager doesn't have time to take your results and put it into his own reporting and your results can stand as your own results. BUT this is in the context that you and your line manager aren't that far apart in position, that your line manager has been screwing you and you do have access to be able to report directly to the main line manager. Eventually, your cocksucker line manager will realize that his time is up and either do more reporting as a desperate way to tip the scales again, but since he needs your results, you just do it the same way each time and even if they demand your results first, you don't need to- Why? Cause reporting is just communicating your results, your job is get results, you wont' get blamed cause you do your own reporting (which you should be doing), reporting really is just reporting; and if your line manger is exploiting the lines of communication, well at the executive level, fuck him. At the mid-manager level, they likely can get you fired but at the executive level, everyone's neck on the line and threats are usually empty if you're close in position. But you can't jump the gun on this, make sure that he really is a cocksucker, cause once you do this, no matter how innocently you pull this off, it will be war and you will need to fight on 2 fronts, reporting and results, but once they don't have access to your results, their reports will look like toilet paper and again, at the top companies, they will quickly realize what was going on. As an aside, fighting on an interpersonal political level is for shitty companies, if your company sucks, and there are no results to speak of, it will degenerate into this. Best to just look for a better company who will appreciate a tiger like you and get the best recommendations you can. After all, why would you want to be an executive at the #5 player over that of being at the #1 company in your industry, even if it is at a lower position, you could end up going back to your old company as the CEO instead.
AND NEVER MAKE IT PERSONAL, the first person that does in a professional company looks like the loser, even if you are right, let that asshole shoot himself first, but defend yourself, but don't attack back on a personal level. The fact is, when you compete and people's jobs are on the line, things get messy, but if they are competing with you for a position, well who is to say they are more deserving- if you want life to fair and be nice, do something else, cause you won't find that here. VictoryUltimately, people need to know that you are sincere. You can be the best of the best, but if people don't respect you, then you simply are not a qualified leader. This isn't a one on one battle here, you're ultimately going head to head with other major companies in your industry and you need people to believe that you are the best person for the job. And with that comes the fact an executive's job is about making the tough decisions that no one can, or has a hard time making, and doing it within the appropriate amount of time. This is not a fine line between being rash and decisive. When you're rash, its because you've never even bothered to think about the possible scenario and you just lash out and react. When you are decisive, you never react, you are prepared or have enough foundation to assess the situation with a cool head and make the best possible decision the shortest amount of time. And that amount of time could be 3 months of research, but it compared to others, they may need 5 months or never really make a clear response. In the bigger corporations, you don't need to make any decisions. I'm totally being serious. You could, as an executive, do nothing for 3 months and still the company would be running- why? Because operations are still going on, the mail, the checks, the marketing, it's all still running- but when a new competitive force comes into play, those same operations become less effective or non-effective. It's like Facebook will still be huge on the PC platform- they could just bullshit about doing a mobile advert business model for the next 3 months and no one would know any different, the would still get to 1.1B members in 2 weeks from now; but in 3 months from now, their revenue would start to really slide and then in 2 year's from own, MightyAtom's model advert social media platform would start kicking their pretty ass (I wish haha- and no I'm not in that field), but my point is, for most executives at top corporations there is a point where you need to put your head on the chopping block and say, 'yes, this is the direction we should be going', and if you are as good as you say you are, then that, plus your sincerity and decisiveness, will get you to the top. Now this ain't easy, and I've endured some hard things, but I've also done it in record time as well, and the hardcore Fortune 500 corporate life ain't for everyone. I would never survive in a public company environment cause I'm abusive, but both of the major companies that I worked in were both private (meaning not on the stock exchange). Further ReadingIn terms of books: Again, I'm only recommending books that for me were key to my own development as well as ones that I've found value in reading again and again: I'd really suggest, 'Straight from the Gut' by Jack Welch; he was the CEO of GE and considered the best CEO of the last century lol. Jack: Straight from the GutAnd in terms of being results driven, anything written by Jeffrey J. Fox, the man, really really knows what he is talking about and if anyone is about knowhow, it is this man. Amazon: Rainmaker Jeffrey Fox How to Become a Rainmaker: The Rules for Getting and Keeping Customers and ClientsAmazon Fierce Competitor Jeffrey Fox How to Be a Fierce Competitor: What Winning Companies and Great Managers Do in Tough TimesAgain, you can grab these books from the library and read em through, but honestly, as a business guy, I've always seen these books as a personal investment, so if you can get a used copy cheap, purchase it, because you will be reading them more than once. As always: apologies for any major grammatical errors as I've just tried to get this post out there. Feel free to post questions, I know I haven't been the most diligent in replying on the stop, but I will check in as much as I can. Cheers.
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another good read, you are an inspiration MightyAtom!
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Thank you a million times! Your blogs and guides have helped me many times over in deciding what I want to do. So far my plan is to go to McGill and do a Bachelor of commerce. Again thank you for sharing your insight.
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Thanks for these awesome articles! I actually am in the middle of reading "Straight from the Gut" for fun that I got for $2 at a book sale I'm glad you mentioned that an MBA is required. I've heard a bunch of things about MBAs, but not from anyone reputable.
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Hey Mighty, you misspelled sergeant (sub-header: Sergeant vs. Lieutenant). Unless, that is...you were really referring to the painter J.S. Sargent...! These Knowhow articles are fucking amazing, btw. I love your ferocity, tiger.
it involves working 3 days straight, not seeing your family for a month and missing your workouts and drinking a few bottles of whiskey to close the deal. It requires you to sacrifice more than anyone should and go to the brink and sometimes fall off,
Amazing.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
Thank you for the correction, I was totally in the dark as to the spelling, haha, but I've corrected it and best. ^^
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It's all good it's just the painter popped up in my head and I lol'd in confusion. But I quickly got what you were saying as soon as I dug into the meat of the paragraph. I've read it twice now and it's a really informative read. Thanks!
EDIT: Hey are the book links an affiliate link with Amazon so you can make some money that way? I was thinking of buying a couple. Then again you're a big dog so you might not bother at all .
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 16 2012 14:21 Qwyn wrote:It's all good it's just the painter popped up in my head and I lol'd in confusion. But I quickly got what you were saying as soon as I dug into the meat of the paragraph. I've read it twice now and it's a really informative read. Thanks! EDIT: Hey are the book links an affiliate link with Amazon so you can make some money that way? I was thinking of buying a couple. Then again you're a big dog so you might not bother at all . The referal fee goes to supporting TL =)
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I like what you said about working harder but there is conflict in the notion you don't have to be first in first out... I think that especially in a corporate office job where you are constantly taken away from your desk by managers and co workers being the first in last out can provide you with a lot of time to just produce whatever it is you need to do that is time consuming. Also you say to get really good you need to know the business inside and out, and there's no better way to see everything then to be the one that's always there. I got many oportunities that I wouldn't have been chosen for because I was there earliest or latest when the higher ups needed help and I was the only option... This gave me important political face time
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On October 16 2012 18:50 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 14:21 Qwyn wrote:It's all good it's just the painter popped up in my head and I lol'd in confusion. But I quickly got what you were saying as soon as I dug into the meat of the paragraph. I've read it twice now and it's a really informative read. Thanks! EDIT: Hey are the book links an affiliate link with Amazon so you can make some money that way? I was thinking of buying a couple. Then again you're a big dog so you might not bother at all . The referal fee goes to supporting TL =)
Sweet! That's even better!
Gonna buy some of the books on the list for some reading. Cheers!
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 17 2012 03:02 Mattchew wrote: I like what you said about working harder but there is conflict in the notion you don't have to be first in first out... I think that especially in a corporate office job where you are constantly taken away from your desk by managers and co workers being the first in last out can provide you with a lot of time to just produce whatever it is you need to do that is time consuming. Also you say to get really good you need to know the business inside and out, and there's no better way to see everything then to be the one that's always there. I got many oportunities that I wouldn't have been chosen for because I was there earliest or latest when the higher ups needed help and I was the only option... This gave me important political face time I totally agree , but i wrote that because most executives actually just go through the motions and think by putting the most time in, that it is enough, when really it should be doing whatever it takes to get the results escpecially when you are at the start of your corporate career. Of course there are a lot of execs who do just work during the alloted hours to get home for the family or think that it is enough, but if your not competing then you really are risking everything, so the main point is simply: as an exec you are there to compete and with the bounds of keeping the respect of your peers enough for you to lead them, you do whatever it takes.
But yes totally agree with you when your at the early stages of your career, but later on when you are at a director level, putting in long hours to just ,be available wont be necesy or sustainable when you are on the verge of a divorce, heart attack and when the most important thing is looking like yyou are not overwhelmed. But the is for much later =)
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Lord MightAtom, any advice on how to maintain/increase stamina so you can work those long hours consistently?
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Thanks Mighty Atom for the great post!
I'm working in a Fortune 500 company myself, in the IT consulting dept. The point I'm wondering is that I see almost nobody in the dept has an MBA, not even the higher-ups. This makes me wonder whether in my country an MBA is that vital for advancement or not.
I'm quite fond of the idea of taking an MBA myself, however if it is not key for advancement the opportunity cost might be a tad high I feel. My first degree is in finance so I have some basic business education already.
Any light to shed on this situation?
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 17 2012 12:00 Kalingingsong wrote: Lord MightAtom, any advice on how to maintain/increase stamina so you can work those long hours consistently?
kaka, maybe when I was still a senior director, but now I'm just trying to keep my head above water at a start-up- ^^
I think as long as you keep at it, it comes naturally as you become more and more efficient and you keep pushing your own limits. You can do it artificially by drinking lots of coffee and such, but the damage accumulates and burn out is always a big issue with execs. I'd say, routine, routine, routine and minimize anything that isn't directly work related like TV - while still doing some hobbies when you can to at least make yourself feel human. As long as you feel you're competing, it isn't much of a drag, but if you're being assigned tedious work - then you're just going to have suffer through it. Again, working entry or mid level and working executive is very different because in the former, you get work assigned to you; if you aren't asking for more work, you can sit on you ass if you want, but as an exec, its not about not doing work, but doing more work/results than your peers.
I hope one day I can be back to that position within my own companies, but right now I'm just a peon in start-up new company hell. ^^
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 17 2012 12:51 targ wrote: Thanks Mighty Atom for the great post!
I'm working in a Fortune 500 company myself, in the IT consulting dept. The point I'm wondering is that I see almost nobody in the dept has an MBA, not even the higher-ups. This makes me wonder whether in my country an MBA is that vital for advancement or not.
I'm quite fond of the idea of taking an MBA myself, however if it is not key for advancement the opportunity cost might be a tad high I feel. My first degree is in finance so I have some basic business education already.
Any light to shed on this situation?
It really depends on what department you are in because being in the IT department may not be the path to the CEO in your firm. If not, then MBAs won't be prevalent, rather specialists will be the norm and those types of more technical jobs don't have a lot of management layers.
But if you're in marketing/strategy/business development/sales or the corporate finance side of your company- and people from those departments get tapped for the CEO, senior executive positions, then I can't see you not getting some type of MBA.
In terms of MBAs, yes they can be very expensive and unless you're intent on being an executive, then I wouldn't say that they are necessary- but for the most part, MBAs are simply another thing you check mark off your list of requirements and if you have solid business results, they will speak louder than what MBA degree (which school you went to), but initially, the better reputation your MBA degree is from, the better company you will be able to get into. Really, a fresh MBA graduate knows less than nothing compared to someone just 2 years with post MBA experience, the gap is really that huge. So again, in business, experience trumps everything, but if you can't articulate it, that means you can't manipulate it, and being an executive is about communicating and leading your company. At the very least an MBA puts the same mindset and vocabulary in your mind.
For instance, in investment/finance, when then talk about returns, the say a '5 bagger or 10 bagger', or 1 buck, 10 bucks, meaning 5 times or 10 times return on initial investment or 1 million or 10 million; but in marketing we talk about 'cpa' or we do say 100k or 1mil, (cpa being cost per acquisition of client) and we say the number exactly because it is usually related to an actual media buy or budget that needs to be broken down. An MBA at least gives you a broad overview of really, not the vocabulary, but the mentality behind those professional business fields that express themselves through the vocabulary and most of all put you in the mind set of one dictating strategy more than operations. Not to say operations is lesser than strategy, in most cases the opposite is true where 95% of companies fail on bad execution only, but in the ultra competitive landscape, strategy is what ultimately defines a company's market position when the top three companies have essentially the same 'resources and capabilities' (that is a management term actually and it means what it says) - and it is more the direction of the company that really matters at that point with the results being played out 12 months later.
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Hi MightyAtom,
Great article, especially as it relates to where I am in my career and the steps I need to take to 'get there'. That said, from reading your articles, I don't think I've got it in me to crush my way to the top.
From some of your older posts, you mentioned you were in a professional services firm. Did learn the above from your experiences at that firm? Secondly, what are your thoughts of climbing the ladder in professional services? Lastly, what are your thoughts in climbing the ladder in industry? My thoughts were that it is quite time consuming, especially if the guy above you stays on with the firm and is a solid performer. There is very limited opportunities to leap frog over him or even take his position.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 18 2012 17:40 Trainninja wrote: Hi MightyAtom,
Great article, especially as it relates to where I am in my career and the steps I need to take to 'get there'. That said, from reading your articles, I don't think I've got it in me to crush my way to the top.
From some of your older posts, you mentioned you were in a professional services firm. Did learn the above from your experiences at that firm? Secondly, what are your thoughts of climbing the ladder in professional services? Lastly, what are your thoughts in climbing the ladder in industry? My thoughts were that it is quite time consuming, especially if the guy above you stays on with the firm and is a solid performer. There is very limited opportunities to leap frog over him or even take his position.
Yes, so I used to be a consultant with PwC in Korea. It's a completely different environment than a regular corporation because everyone is either a consultant or certified account and because of the partnership structure, you can't leapfrog your way up.
That being said, the compensation at all levels is much better than most non professional companies, so you are well taken care of it as you take each step. Thing is when it comes to partnership firms, progression is pretty much assured because each professional is a money maker in their own right and so the firms want to always retain talent. In fact, helping your senior manager is a good thing because as they get promoted, they can also help considerably in your promotion as well and also get you into their own team.
So in a professional firm, the key thing is more focused on independently building your own network of clients and really specializing in a certain industry or process that has good yield or growth or demand. So that when it is time after 6 years of work, you won't be passed up for a junior equity partnership position. So everyone gets promoted up to the point where its time to chose the partners, but if you have a solid track record and you have your own client network, it is just another step towards being a full on partner.
In Korea is based on your background as well as your client network, I don't think it would have been an issue for me and as you know, partners make at least 7 figures if you count the benefits and bonus and directors who are partners can make 8 figures etc.
The best thing about working in that environment is in some ways a lack of corporate ladder until you get near the partner line- like when you are senior manager and are competing for that equity offer, that being said, most people know who has what it takes a long time before.
In terms of moving to an industry, it's funny cause even though I made it to a regional director level, while my income was much more than a senior manager's salary, but of course maybe 2/3 of what a junior equity partner would be making - but I was making that income in 3 years, while even now some of my colleagues back in PwC are just on the cusp of getting that equity partnership offer (in Korea due to mandatory Army service, our entire professional services industry is about 5 years older than in the west).
But in terms of working, professional background gave me a serious edge against most of my competitors because a lot of times they really didn't know what business was all about, they were just figuring things out as they went along but had a passion or background in the product/industry. That being said, they had worked through the system and they were extremely good at playing politics; it took me about 10 months to figure it out and about 8 months to really crush them. But I'd say a few times I was on the verge of quitting just cause I thought it was such bullshit until I figured out how they were playing the game.
At first I simply had massive results and output, and much like a professional firm I assumed that I would be taken care of, but it wasn't the case at all. Much of it has to do with not just promotions but compensation and bonuses, and for the work that I had put in, and compared to my other slightly senior colleagues, it was clear that they played this game extremely well and I didn't. Well I figured it out as above and then went to work and at the end of the day, I brought the hammer down on those who were playing politics with my career for themselves. I didn't hold anything back, I didn't cover for them, we'd see each other and say nice things, but really there was an entire war going on with reporting and results and who was going to claim this or that win. But again, at a top organization, the people at the top aren't idiots, they are smart enough, but you still need to be able to present yourself in your own context, not someone else's. So without results, I ended up wiping them out, but I wouldn't want to go through that process ever again. I mean, they also didn't sleep, they also worked hard, it was just that a majority of the work did deal with strategy and negotiations, so it was my extreme strong suit at that time. But had it dealt with marketing promotions for the industry, I would have been wiped out myself because when I first started, of course I didn't have an in depth industry knowledge like my line managers had. But over time once I had that too, it was gg for them.
It is extremely different in being in a professional firm because there is always demand for you at another firm, but in a non-professional firm, once you get kicked out or leave, unless you had a spot prepared for you at another company, it is an extremely difficult transition as these senior executive positions really are not that numerous. So for a lot of these other guys, they have no options but to stay in the company and if they want to make more money they need to try to get the highest position that the can. So I don't blame them, and I never took it personally and truth be told, of course I looked down on them, worms who didn't really love business the way I did, rather worms that were just trying to get by, but also take whatever compensation they could from who ever was around them. And I reckon this was also what happened to them as well as they climbed the ladder.
If I could do it all over again, just between going into a non-professional firm; I don't know. Other than the fact that I did leave to do a start-up in the same industry, I think it was a toss up. Sure you could rise faster in a non-professional firm especially if you have a professional background, but the competition is brutal, whereas, if you just make some smart moves and set up your own network, you'll always be well taken care of and welcomed in the professional sector. Guess I just was an impatient man.
^^
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Hi, you implied that at a certain point it might be too late for a person to do start-ups/new companies (in a different thread).
I was wondering whether if the time limit is similar for corporate laddering. Do you feel that it's possible to start this process a bit late in life but still be ok?
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Great post, absolutely loved it. It is more fleshed out than the ones that are generally posted on Wallstreet Oasis.
Life as a consultant sounds pretty interesting, looking forward this summer to see what it's all about. Just one question, is it a public company that different to a partnership in terms of mobility?
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Thank you as always for the posts MA!
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Hey man, good luck with that deal.
Well, this is all very interesting, but also kind of overwhelming from a BBA perspective-- I've go a long way too go. I don't think I'll ultimately go into business (I'm pre-med), but it's cool to think of what many of my friends will be doing with the rest of their lives. Some of them are more ambitious and I can see them making it big, others, well, I don't know what they're doing with their time.
It's pretty cutthroat I guess. I'm a competitive person, but only for things that don't matter that much-- things like video games, sports, little things, sure. Fighting my way up... well, that's not really for me. B-school is competitive b/c everything's graded on a curve, and I've already gotten upset at a couple people for deliberately withholding information for some class or other. Then again, I've heard of pre-med kids tearing required readings out of reference material to screw over other students.
So you worked at PwC? Have you heard of the PwC xTREME Case Competition by any chance? I'm doing it with some friends this year, and it may sorta kinda be about esports.
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"If this has been going on then: (i) don't just causally report and give hard figures to your line manager right away, if they are asking for it, then they are preparing their own report. Rather, just say you'll get it to them, then (ii) make your own report much better than you normally do. Even if you're on your last breath, don't skip any details, remember your training as an entry level analyst and make the document with all the bells and whistles, then (iii) forward you report to your line manager while cc'ing your higher ups, with a nice email text into, putting the report attached as your win. Thus, you've followed proper protocol, and you include, as per your 'line manager's' instructions' in the email, but the report is all done by you, and your line manager doesn't have time to take your results and put it into his own reporting and your results can stand as your own results."
5/5 post as your last Mr.MightyAtom! But I have issue understanding the text above. I know... "how could you give the reading 5/5 if you don't fully understand"... I was wondering if you could expand on what you meant by "then (iii) forward you report to your line manager while cc'ing your higher ups, with a nice email text into, putting the report attached as your win.". My understand was to send "the less impressive copy" to "the line manager" and remodel that copy into something "impressive" and send to the higher ups.
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If I could pick only one member of this whole site to talk about to other people, it would be MightAtom.
I feel so privileged someone like him hangs out on this site, very amazing person.
Keep lovin Starcrat We need role models like you
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 20 2012 09:26 Kalingingsong wrote: Hi, you implied that at a certain point it might be too late for a person to do start-ups/new companies (in a different thread).
I was wondering whether if the time limit is similar for corporate laddering. Do you feel that it's possible to start this process a bit late in life but still be ok?
For corporate laddering- yes, but late is relative, I mean, when you get your MBA and what industry matters a lot, for some industries, upper management is a lot older, early 40's in manufacturing but other's early 30's like in finance. But it's more of a matter of if you do have that executive track available to you, that the room for promotion is there. If it is, then even if you're in your late 20's starting, as long as you are at a company that values results, then no worries. But it goes without saying- you don't have room for making mistakes or making a bad impression.
Personally, I finished my Masters in international business when I was 28, but my corporate laddering didn't start until I was 33 and in a non-professional company, within 2 years I had made it to the top, but I took a total of 4 days off (where I didn't work at least 4 hours that day or travel) out of 730 days of work. But I had a professional business background etc.
If your company respects results, it is never too late to turn on the afterburners and go for it.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 20 2012 16:54 yandere991 wrote: Great post, absolutely loved it. It is more fleshed out than the ones that are generally posted on Wallstreet Oasis.
Life as a consultant sounds pretty interesting, looking forward this summer to see what it's all about. Just one question, is it a public company that different to a partnership in terms of mobility?
Mmm...I haven't worked for a public company, but I would think the criteria is different at the top executive spots- whereas in a partnership, you're very tied to what network and business you can bring in as well as how you fit in the company culture (to make equity partner), but a public company does prefer candidates that look great on paper as they also have to consider about investor relations. But in terms of laddering, you still need to secure seniors who will support you but in a public company it may come down more to the board -when it comes to the top chief executive positions.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On October 22 2012 03:13 ticklishmusic wrote:Hey man, good luck with that deal. Well, this is all very interesting, but also kind of overwhelming from a BBA perspective-- I've go a long way too go. I don't think I'll ultimately go into business (I'm pre-med), but it's cool to think of what many of my friends will be doing with the rest of their lives. Some of them are more ambitious and I can see them making it big, others, well, I don't know what they're doing with their time. It's pretty cutthroat I guess. I'm a competitive person, but only for things that don't matter that much-- things like video games, sports, little things, sure. Fighting my way up... well, that's not really for me. B-school is competitive b/c everything's graded on a curve, and I've already gotten upset at a couple people for deliberately withholding information for some class or other. Then again, I've heard of pre-med kids tearing required readings out of reference material to screw over other students. So you worked at PwC? Have you heard of the PwC xTREME Case Competition by any chance? I'm doing it with some friends this year, and it may sorta kinda be about esports.
Well, it has been a long time since I've posted because I've been getting hammered like a mofo on this deal and it is still in progress, no clear cut victory yet, but slowly inching my way there.
I'm actually opposite to you, i'm not competitive at all for gaming or playing sports with friends, but it came to grad school or work, or playing at a national level, obviously I'm uber competitive, but I like to always play fair, cause you know when you win, it's a real win, and ultimately at the highest tiers, people who are there aren't the cutthoat competitive guys, they are the guys who really are a notch above the rest. Like a level 25 dota character when everyone else is level 11. lol.
Yes, I was at PwC in Korea, but I haven't hear of the xTreme case competition, but good luck with it, ^^
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On November 03 2012 17:51 Advantageous wrote: "If this has been going on then: (i) don't just causally report and give hard figures to your line manager right away, if they are asking for it, then they are preparing their own report. Rather, just say you'll get it to them, then (ii) make your own report much better than you normally do. Even if you're on your last breath, don't skip any details, remember your training as an entry level analyst and make the document with all the bells and whistles, then (iii) forward you report to your line manager while cc'ing your higher ups, with a nice email text into, putting the report attached as your win. Thus, you've followed proper protocol, and you include, as per your 'line manager's' instructions' in the email, but the report is all done by you, and your line manager doesn't have time to take your results and put it into his own reporting and your results can stand as your own results."
5/5 post as your last Mr.MightyAtom! But I have issue understanding the text above. I know... "how could you give the reading 5/5 if you don't fully understand"... I was wondering if you could expand on what you meant by "then (iii) forward you report to your line manager while cc'ing your higher ups, with a nice email text into, putting the report attached as your win.". My understand was to send "the less impressive copy" to "the line manager" and remodel that copy into something "impressive" and send to the higher ups.
Hey ^^, no what you don't want to look like is that you are 'playing politics'- basically you won't have time to do to reports, even if one is a revision, if you send the less impressive copy, by the time you send in your impressive one, your line manager will have already out reported you. But by burning the mid-night oil and doing a cc, well the line manager can't actually claim that any of your results are only because of him and it doesn't look to the higher ups that you are deliberately trying to under mind your line manager. You countering him is one thing, but you starting a power struggle and him getting a lesser report when he finds out you've been doing other reports and not cc'ing him on it, will cause a lot of unnecessary interpersonal issues where he may go out of his way to fuck you right away, by saying that you are purposely trying to under mind his position and that you're being unprofessional. Always be cool and professional, the first people who looks like they really are playing politics gets fucked first. Keep it professional and let them shoot themselves in the foot.
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On November 16 2012 20:48 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 09:26 Kalingingsong wrote: Hi, you implied that at a certain point it might be too late for a person to do start-ups/new companies (in a different thread).
I was wondering whether if the time limit is similar for corporate laddering. Do you feel that it's possible to start this process a bit late in life but still be ok? For corporate laddering- yes, but late is relative, I mean, when you get your MBA and what industry matters a lot, for some industries, upper management is a lot older, early 40's in manufacturing but other's early 30's like in finance. But it's more of a matter of if you do have that executive track available to you, that the room for promotion is there. If it is, then even if you're in your late 20's starting, as long as you are at a company that values results, then no worries. But it goes without saying- you don't have room for making mistakes or making a bad impression. Personally, I finished my Masters in international business when I was 28, but my corporate laddering didn't start until I was 33 and in a non-professional company, within 2 years I had made it to the top, but I took a total of 4 days off (where I didn't work at least 4 hours that day or travel) out of 730 days of work. But I had a professional business background etc. If your company respects results, it is never too late to turn on the afterburners and go for it.
Thank you for the reply! As a follow up question:
Any tips for identifying those opportunities that can lead to promotion? Should things be fairly obvious? or might there be things to watch out for (eg dead ends that are made to look like promotion is possible)?
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On November 18 2012 08:02 Kalingingsong wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2012 20:48 MightyAtom wrote:On October 20 2012 09:26 Kalingingsong wrote: Hi, you implied that at a certain point it might be too late for a person to do start-ups/new companies (in a different thread).
I was wondering whether if the time limit is similar for corporate laddering. Do you feel that it's possible to start this process a bit late in life but still be ok? For corporate laddering- yes, but late is relative, I mean, when you get your MBA and what industry matters a lot, for some industries, upper management is a lot older, early 40's in manufacturing but other's early 30's like in finance. But it's more of a matter of if you do have that executive track available to you, that the room for promotion is there. If it is, then even if you're in your late 20's starting, as long as you are at a company that values results, then no worries. But it goes without saying- you don't have room for making mistakes or making a bad impression. Personally, I finished my Masters in international business when I was 28, but my corporate laddering didn't start until I was 33 and in a non-professional company, within 2 years I had made it to the top, but I took a total of 4 days off (where I didn't work at least 4 hours that day or travel) out of 730 days of work. But I had a professional business background etc. If your company respects results, it is never too late to turn on the afterburners and go for it. Thank you for the reply! As a follow up question: Any tips for identifying those opportunities that can lead to promotion? Should things be fairly obvious? or might there be things to watch out for (eg dead ends that are made to look like promotion is possible)?
I think if you just do what the post says, it's more than enough, but yeah, you really need to know the political landscape of your company. For example: how heavy do they weigh loyalty or results - or what is the normal length of time for promotions; in finance, if they think you are a superstar stud, they will promote you as fast as possible, but in a partnership getting great results means that you are eligible for the 'inner circle' but you won't get in until you prove your loyalty, and if you fuck up before then, well you're out.
Also some positions may be death traps, e.g. some VP divisional promotions may look great, but if that division is totally fucked (a dog), then getting promoted there may be the kiss of death- so you really need to also know, what political or work baggage does that role have. Sure you may get promoted to some senior ops positions, but what if it requires you to be on call 24hours a day and it usually has a lot of shitty problems that usually you have no ability to really resolve, would you take that promotion or wait etc...
So really understanding your company values for what they look in an executive as well as knowing which positions are actually death traps etc, I think are key because, at the end of the day, to move up the ladder, someone does need to either get moved up or knocked off and it may be harsh, but just know that you're also a target as well by someone who isn't going to give a second though to taking you out as well.
^^
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MA, what did you think of PwC's culture or values? Did you naturally fit in to their mold?
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On October 18 2012 19:18 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 17:40 Trainninja wrote: Hi MightyAtom,
Great article, especially as it relates to where I am in my career and the steps I need to take to 'get there'. That said, from reading your articles, I don't think I've got it in me to crush my way to the top.
From some of your older posts, you mentioned you were in a professional services firm. Did learn the above from your experiences at that firm? Secondly, what are your thoughts of climbing the ladder in professional services? Lastly, what are your thoughts in climbing the ladder in industry? My thoughts were that it is quite time consuming, especially if the guy above you stays on with the firm and is a solid performer. There is very limited opportunities to leap frog over him or even take his position. Yes, so I used to be a consultant with PwC in Korea. It's a completely different environment than a regular corporation because everyone is either a consultant or certified account and because of the partnership structure, you can't leapfrog your way up. That being said, the compensation at all levels is much better than most non professional companies, so you are well taken care of it as you take each step. Thing is when it comes to partnership firms, progression is pretty much assured because each professional is a money maker in their own right and so the firms want to always retain talent. In fact, helping your senior manager is a good thing because as they get promoted, they can also help considerably in your promotion as well and also get you into their own team. So in a professional firm, the key thing is more focused on independently building your own network of clients and really specializing in a certain industry or process that has good yield or growth or demand. So that when it is time after 6 years of work, you won't be passed up for a junior equity partnership position. So everyone gets promoted up to the point where its time to chose the partners, but if you have a solid track record and you have your own client network, it is just another step towards being a full on partner. In Korea is based on your background as well as your client network, I don't think it would have been an issue for me and as you know, partners make at least 7 figures if you count the benefits and bonus and directors who are partners can make 8 figures etc. The best thing about working in that environment is in some ways a lack of corporate ladder until you get near the partner line- like when you are senior manager and are competing for that equity offer, that being said, most people know who has what it takes a long time before. In terms of moving to an industry, it's funny cause even though I made it to a regional director level, while my income was much more than a senior manager's salary, but of course maybe 2/3 of what a junior equity partner would be making - but I was making that income in 3 years, while even now some of my colleagues back in PwC are just on the cusp of getting that equity partnership offer (in Korea due to mandatory Army service, our entire professional services industry is about 5 years older than in the west). But in terms of working, professional background gave me a serious edge against most of my competitors because a lot of times they really didn't know what business was all about, they were just figuring things out as they went along but had a passion or background in the product/industry. That being said, they had worked through the system and they were extremely good at playing politics; it took me about 10 months to figure it out and about 8 months to really crush them. But I'd say a few times I was on the verge of quitting just cause I thought it was such bullshit until I figured out how they were playing the game. At first I simply had massive results and output, and much like a professional firm I assumed that I would be taken care of, but it wasn't the case at all. Much of it has to do with not just promotions but compensation and bonuses, and for the work that I had put in, and compared to my other slightly senior colleagues, it was clear that they played this game extremely well and I didn't. Well I figured it out as above and then went to work and at the end of the day, I brought the hammer down on those who were playing politics with my career for themselves. I didn't hold anything back, I didn't cover for them, we'd see each other and say nice things, but really there was an entire war going on with reporting and results and who was going to claim this or that win. But again, at a top organization, the people at the top aren't idiots, they are smart enough, but you still need to be able to present yourself in your own context, not someone else's. So without results, I ended up wiping them out, but I wouldn't want to go through that process ever again. I mean, they also didn't sleep, they also worked hard, it was just that a majority of the work did deal with strategy and negotiations, so it was my extreme strong suit at that time. But had it dealt with marketing promotions for the industry, I would have been wiped out myself because when I first started, of course I didn't have an in depth industry knowledge like my line managers had. But over time once I had that too, it was gg for them. It is extremely different in being in a professional firm because there is always demand for you at another firm, but in a non-professional firm, once you get kicked out or leave, unless you had a spot prepared for you at another company, it is an extremely difficult transition as these senior executive positions really are not that numerous. So for a lot of these other guys, they have no options but to stay in the company and if they want to make more money they need to try to get the highest position that the can. So I don't blame them, and I never took it personally and truth be told, of course I looked down on them, worms who didn't really love business the way I did, rather worms that were just trying to get by, but also take whatever compensation they could from who ever was around them. And I reckon this was also what happened to them as well as they climbed the ladder. If I could do it all over again, just between going into a non-professional firm; I don't know. Other than the fact that I did leave to do a start-up in the same industry, I think it was a toss up. Sure you could rise faster in a non-professional firm especially if you have a professional background, but the competition is brutal, whereas, if you just make some smart moves and set up your own network, you'll always be well taken care of and welcomed in the professional sector. Guess I just was an impatient man. ^^
I always enjoy what you write, though I do think you sensationalise the whole corporate "thing". I've worked for both PwC and Deloitte, and I must say you're comments re compensation of directors and partners are flat out wrong. The avg equity partner comp at PwC UK is only 650k sterling, but you're mentioning 8 figure salaries which I can only imagine are what some of the very senior global leaders could get, and def not some random territory partner or even your TSP. Couple that with the fact that in Asia we make partners much quicker than in the west, and we have salaried partner schemes for the first 3-5 years of admittance to the partnership; I think you are pulling out some pretty big whoppers. Your mention of 6 years to junior equity partner has never happened in my experience. The youngest partners are in their early 30s generally and have put in 10 plus years from associate to make it. And like I said, many are salaried in Asia.
Samil PwC I know is a pretty high performing firm in AP and also the network. But I can't imagine the salaries are so much bigger than what I see elsewhere. Also, I'm interested in what you did regionally as with the exception of one senior partner from KR that held a role for the East Cluster, Korea is quite insular in the network. At both PwC and DTT I've worked in an regional/global capacity operationally so have a good idea of our member firms look like.
With regards to the mention of getting interpersonal conflict/issues at professional services firm. You're pretty spot on. You have to be smart to shine when youre part of an organization of 180k - 200k people globally. But the real hardcore is not in firms like ours, but in the PEs, investment houses/banks etc. On the other end of the spectrum i hear street sweeping and rubbish collecting is pretty harsh too. Professional services is relatively tame in comparison. So let's keep all of this in perspective. We wear suits and earn insanely disproportionate amounts for what we do, pushing paper, people etc. For all the mental pain and anguish that some of your fellow colleagues may put you through doesn't compare to what real pain is if one did not have the trappings of success accessed via good education, a good upbringing and being lucky enough to be afforded the opportunities to succeed.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On November 25 2012 15:25 kurosawa wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 19:18 MightyAtom wrote:On October 18 2012 17:40 Trainninja wrote: Hi MightyAtom,
Great article, especially as it relates to where I am in my career and the steps I need to take to 'get there'. That said, from reading your articles, I don't think I've got it in me to crush my way to the top.
From some of your older posts, you mentioned you were in a professional services firm. Did learn the above from your experiences at that firm? Secondly, what are your thoughts of climbing the ladder in professional services? Lastly, what are your thoughts in climbing the ladder in industry? My thoughts were that it is quite time consuming, especially if the guy above you stays on with the firm and is a solid performer. There is very limited opportunities to leap frog over him or even take his position. Yes, so I used to be a consultant with PwC in Korea. It's a completely different environment than a regular corporation because everyone is either a consultant or certified account and because of the partnership structure, you can't leapfrog your way up. That being said, the compensation at all levels is much better than most non professional companies, so you are well taken care of it as you take each step. Thing is when it comes to partnership firms, progression is pretty much assured because each professional is a money maker in their own right and so the firms want to always retain talent. In fact, helping your senior manager is a good thing because as they get promoted, they can also help considerably in your promotion as well and also get you into their own team. So in a professional firm, the key thing is more focused on independently building your own network of clients and really specializing in a certain industry or process that has good yield or growth or demand. So that when it is time after 6 years of work, you won't be passed up for a junior equity partnership position. So everyone gets promoted up to the point where its time to chose the partners, but if you have a solid track record and you have your own client network, it is just another step towards being a full on partner. In Korea is based on your background as well as your client network, I don't think it would have been an issue for me and as you know, partners make at least 7 figures if you count the benefits and bonus and directors who are partners can make 8 figures etc. The best thing about working in that environment is in some ways a lack of corporate ladder until you get near the partner line- like when you are senior manager and are competing for that equity offer, that being said, most people know who has what it takes a long time before. In terms of moving to an industry, it's funny cause even though I made it to a regional director level, while my income was much more than a senior manager's salary, but of course maybe 2/3 of what a junior equity partner would be making - but I was making that income in 3 years, while even now some of my colleagues back in PwC are just on the cusp of getting that equity partnership offer (in Korea due to mandatory Army service, our entire professional services industry is about 5 years older than in the west). But in terms of working, professional background gave me a serious edge against most of my competitors because a lot of times they really didn't know what business was all about, they were just figuring things out as they went along but had a passion or background in the product/industry. That being said, they had worked through the system and they were extremely good at playing politics; it took me about 10 months to figure it out and about 8 months to really crush them. But I'd say a few times I was on the verge of quitting just cause I thought it was such bullshit until I figured out how they were playing the game. At first I simply had massive results and output, and much like a professional firm I assumed that I would be taken care of, but it wasn't the case at all. Much of it has to do with not just promotions but compensation and bonuses, and for the work that I had put in, and compared to my other slightly senior colleagues, it was clear that they played this game extremely well and I didn't. Well I figured it out as above and then went to work and at the end of the day, I brought the hammer down on those who were playing politics with my career for themselves. I didn't hold anything back, I didn't cover for them, we'd see each other and say nice things, but really there was an entire war going on with reporting and results and who was going to claim this or that win. But again, at a top organization, the people at the top aren't idiots, they are smart enough, but you still need to be able to present yourself in your own context, not someone else's. So without results, I ended up wiping them out, but I wouldn't want to go through that process ever again. I mean, they also didn't sleep, they also worked hard, it was just that a majority of the work did deal with strategy and negotiations, so it was my extreme strong suit at that time. But had it dealt with marketing promotions for the industry, I would have been wiped out myself because when I first started, of course I didn't have an in depth industry knowledge like my line managers had. But over time once I had that too, it was gg for them. It is extremely different in being in a professional firm because there is always demand for you at another firm, but in a non-professional firm, once you get kicked out or leave, unless you had a spot prepared for you at another company, it is an extremely difficult transition as these senior executive positions really are not that numerous. So for a lot of these other guys, they have no options but to stay in the company and if they want to make more money they need to try to get the highest position that the can. So I don't blame them, and I never took it personally and truth be told, of course I looked down on them, worms who didn't really love business the way I did, rather worms that were just trying to get by, but also take whatever compensation they could from who ever was around them. And I reckon this was also what happened to them as well as they climbed the ladder. If I could do it all over again, just between going into a non-professional firm; I don't know. Other than the fact that I did leave to do a start-up in the same industry, I think it was a toss up. Sure you could rise faster in a non-professional firm especially if you have a professional background, but the competition is brutal, whereas, if you just make some smart moves and set up your own network, you'll always be well taken care of and welcomed in the professional sector. Guess I just was an impatient man. ^^ I always enjoy what you write, though I do think you sensationalise the whole corporate "thing". I've worked for both PwC and Deloitte, and I must say you're comments re compensation of directors and partners are flat out wrong. The avg equity partner comp at PwC UK is only 650k sterling, but you're mentioning 8 figure salaries which I can only imagine are what some of the very senior global leaders could get, and def not some random territory partner or even your TSP. Couple that with the fact that in Asia we make partners much quicker than in the west, and we have salaried partner schemes for the first 3-5 years of admittance to the partnership; I think you are pulling out some pretty big whoppers. Your mention of 6 years to junior equity partner has never happened in my experience. The youngest partners are in their early 30s generally and have put in 10 plus years from associate to make it. And like I said, many are salaried in Asia. Samil PwC I know is a pretty high performing firm in AP and also the network. But I can't imagine the salaries are so much bigger than what I see elsewhere. Also, I'm interested in what you did regionally as with the exception of one senior partner from KR that held a role for the East Cluster, Korea is quite insular in the network. At both PwC and DTT I've worked in an regional/global capacity operationally so have a good idea of our member firms look like. With regards to the mention of getting interpersonal conflict/issues at professional services firm. You're pretty spot on. You have to be smart to shine when youre part of an organization of 180k - 200k people globally. But the real hardcore is not in firms like ours, but in the PEs, investment houses/banks etc. On the other end of the spectrum i hear street sweeping and rubbish collecting is pretty harsh too. Professional services is relatively tame in comparison. So let's keep all of this in perspective. We wear suits and earn insanely disproportionate amounts for what we do, pushing paper, people etc. For all the mental pain and anguish that some of your fellow colleagues may put you through doesn't compare to what real pain is if one did not have the trappings of success accessed via good education, a good upbringing and being lucky enough to be afforded the opportunities to succeed.
hey really quickly just cause I didn't want to let it settle like this: 1. I'm always thinking in USD so in terms of even what you wrote as an average, its still plus 1M USD, back in 2005, the conversion was 2:1, but I wasn't talking about salary only, total compensation. 2. As you know, we are all network firms, and Samil PwC is the 50% market share leader and when I mean directors, I mean these guys: http://www.pwc.com/kr/en/leadershipteam/index.jhtml But keeping in mind that I was working post sar/oxly so those numbers I knew may have been the highest- but they were 8 figures. But a huge amount was coming from our consulting M&A divisions at the time. I was told this is disproportional in terms of income composition compared to other PwC firms in the region. 3. Sorry, to put in context, yes 6 years is not right, unless it is post MBA. But in Korea, you're looking at late 30's for salaried partners, coupled with the fact that Koreans have to go to mandatory army service, I'd say the opposite that we make partner later than western firms. But 10 years is about right- sorry about that. But post MBA, I've seen in 6 years if you hit every stride. And again, my context is, you are going for it. 4. Performance Improvement Advisory- Again, we're the 50% market leader, so if you're talking about other divisions like tax etc, all of the overseas work would be the cheobol subsidiarity. And I did negotiation for joint ventures and distribution promotions. But at 50% of the market, it is insular and putting out those numbers.
Ok I gotta run, but I did want to put it into context. On the salary side, you know as a network firm, the compensation across the network and income composition is different but at 50% market share, I don't think I'm far off. For the equity partner, yes, 10 years is much more reasonable, but for MBA hires I've seen it in 6 years.
Best.
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On November 25 2012 15:25 kurosawa wrote: ... With regards to the mention of getting interpersonal conflict/issues at professional services firm. You're pretty spot on. You have to be smart to shine when youre part of an organization of 180k - 200k people globally. But the real hardcore is not in firms like ours, but in the PEs, investment houses/banks etc. On the other end of the spectrum i hear street sweeping and rubbish collecting is pretty harsh too. Professional services is relatively tame in comparison. So let's keep all of this in perspective. We wear suits and earn insanely disproportionate amounts for what we do, pushing paper, people etc. For all the mental pain and anguish that some of your fellow colleagues may put you through doesn't compare to what real pain is if one did not have the trappings of success accessed via good education, a good upbringing and being lucky enough to be afforded the opportunities to succeed.
I wanted to take time to address this last part. I get what you're saying about appreciating what we have - and I think it's always good to be reminded to be thankful- but I wanted to put my posts in context.
I'm not living to simply do my job that I lucked into, I'm living to be the best in my industry, in my firm. I'm writing for those who want the same thing. Sure I need to write in a sensational manner, but the reality is for me, I was the rising star in my firms, I did get the star treatment and I worked like a motherfuker to get it, well beyond most of my peers.
If God gave you these opportunities and you could do more, I think its a disservice to do less than what you can do. If being a street sweeper is the best you can do career wise, but your a great father and brother, then power to you, but if you could do more, why wouldn't you?
Agreed, some firms/industries are tougher than others, so many CPAs want to transition to finance, and so many traders/investment bankers want to go into hedge funds or PE firms. And it gets more hardcore as you go up, but for those who are just trying to get a paycheck and buy consumer goods, yeah, be satisfied of where you are at, when you're making over 30k a month, you can buy virtually any consumer good you want to. But if you want to be the best of your industry, change lives in your industry, buy other companies, revolutionalize/disrupt dominate your industy, and be a force of nature, we're talking about 2 different things here. I'm not talking about pain or getting security in your job, I'm taking about being the best.
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Well good luck in your mission to become a game changer. You obviously have a lot of passion for what you do and I admire that. I may have it confused but I thought you were writing to help people succeed in corporates. I was never under the impression you were reaching out to people to be mavericks, game changers etc. You can't teach people to be those things. Those things are innate, in my mind. And to be honest, those that really changed the world probably wouldn't have worked at a PS firm. I just can't see Steve or Bill slogging it out in a corner booth at PwC
But on a more serious note, I guess people that just want to succeed within a corporate structure...its very different to being what you want to be, which not only comes with a price on yourself, but also your family. Each of us have our thresholds I guess so each to their own. I've always lived by the idea that I need balance in my life, for myself, and my family. That's where I derive my success and happiness from. I may not go down in the annals of history of being the best but I can say I definitely worked with some of the best, yet had time for the things that matter in my life, I.e. my family.
Perhaps you should put a cautionary warning with your articles. That all of this comes at a great price if pursued
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On November 30 2012 00:07 kurosawa wrote:Well good luck in your mission to become a game changer. You obviously have a lot of passion for what you do and I admire that. I may have it confused but I thought you were writing to help people succeed in corporates. I was never under the impression you were reaching out to people to be mavericks, game changers etc. You can't teach people to be those things. Those things are innate, in my mind. And to be honest, those that really changed the world probably wouldn't have worked at a PS firm. I just can't see Steve or Bill slogging it out in a corner booth at PwC But on a more serious note, I guess people that just want to succeed within a corporate structure...its very different to being what you want to be, which not only comes with a price on yourself, but also your family. Each of us have our thresholds I guess so each to their own. I've always lived by the idea that I need balance in my life, for myself, and my family. That's where I derive my success and happiness from. I may not go down in the annals of history of being the best but I can say I definitely worked with some of the best, yet had time for the things that matter in my life, I.e. my family. Perhaps you should put a cautionary warning with your articles. That all of this comes at a great price if pursued
I completely agree with you, I did a post on it a while back, but balance is definitely not on my agenda and as much as I try to do my best for the family...to be brutally honest, I can justify that in the future I can provide this or that, but actually I was in a position to do previously with no issues - but at this point I've put our entire family at risk by depleting all our capital and we are living basically month to month in terms of personal expenses. While we have considerable assets in our company, they are at the mercy of the buyers, and its not like I can just sell off equity whenever I want because that equity also depends on the market as well as representing all the sacrifices of both myself and my family.
My wife understands that I would be unhappy if I didn't try to go for it, forever with some kind of regret or chip on my shoulder, but I did force my entire family to have taken this risk with me. She sometimes makes a joke that I scammed her, that she though she was marrying a future partner of PwC, not some crazy megalomaniac looking to be on the cover of fortune (fuck forbes!). Then I joke back, she should have done more due diligence on my character ^^. But some nights it's tough because when it comes to finances, I always need to put the company first, whether it is payroll or bills and of course my salary is the first cost that gets deducted to make sure the business is smooth going and there have been months where my salary has been deferred until cash flow got better etc.
Thing is, when your executive salary is more than what most SME's make in profit, and you're always guarding your equity to get that better valuation but then also bootstrapping just because it is smarter to do so but when your wife grew up with a certain level of socio-economic expectation and you have 2 toddlers, I have wondered many many times when I look at my family sleeping if it was worth it all. Cause I know she stresses about it, but the difference with us is that it is self imposed, we don't need to live like this, with this uncertainty and stress, I could drop what I'm doing now and get at least a 150k USD job in a month...but that window is also closing due to my age as I would still need at least 3 years to get in to get promoted back to my old level.
But the thing is, even when I was a senior executive, I did see my family far less than I do now, but that level of security kinda made it all worth it, like me not being around was a necessary, but unfortunate cost and you know, in Korea, regardless of how high you are, you work like a dog, and for me as part of a UK multi-national, what complaint could I have when I was making 5 times more than my peers, but far less than my other friends whose family owned boutique M&A firms or were owners/investors of private asset management funds...
Am I far more capable than when I was a senior executive 3 years ago? Of course I am, but have I given my entire family a great deal of stress and even financial stress due to the uncertainty of the business that I manage. That as well. And this deal that I'm working through, this is it, it is the apex of my career as well as everything I have been working towards, and it can fall through at any time until it actually launches, but when it launches it could also put me on the cover of fortune in a years time as well.
For me, it's worth it, for my wife, she understands me- but it's not worth it to her, but she can bear it for me. I'm really thankful for that, but am I happy as well, no. Am I doing what I think is really everything I want to be doing? Yes it is. So it does come down to that sacrifice and the need or want to push it all the way, not for happiness, but because I don't want to regret not going for it- that I wanted to live my life to what I am able to achieve....
It's not for everyone, it's not going to make you happy, but if you're on this path, I would just like to contribute and share my own knowhow in that regards. But when pain is self-inflicted, does it hurt more? keke ^^ I'll let you know if I make it to the other side with my family in tow, forever trying to make it up to them.
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Dang MA o.o You never cease to earn my respect. Good luck to your present and future endeavors I want to squeeze by as a consultant or accountant after my undergraduate studies and designation tests. I suppose that means I'm not fit to work towards becoming a force of nature or game changer in the industry. But you're still great inspiration for working hard. Thank you
PS. What does it take to become a partner of one of the Big 4? Just curious :D
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Korea (South)1897 Posts
On December 09 2012 05:35 Kyokai wrote:Dang MA o.o You never cease to earn my respect. Good luck to your present and future endeavors I want to squeeze by as a consultant or accountant after my undergraduate studies and designation tests. I suppose that means I'm not fit to work towards becoming a force of nature or game changer in the industry. But you're still great inspiration for working hard. Thank you PS. What does it take to become a partner of one of the Big 4? Just curious :D
I'm so sorry it took so long to get to this, I'm just coming up for air at this point ^^
I think, it doesn't matter what field you're in- what I meant by being a force of nature, is that passion or ambition you bring to it. And in term of being a partner in a Big 4: so it all depends on your national firm and culture, so it's all different, but to peg it down in general terms: 1. you must get some type of industry recognition via reputation or speaking or white papers as an expert in a certain field (This goes hand in hand with point 2, but I think it will be a combination of the 3 points listed) 2. you need to be able to get paying clients, get more clients, and keep clients (if you can't get clients, it would be exceptional that you make partner, unless you are such a 'guru' of your industry that just by having you in the firm, you increase the prestige of the firm, but you'd have to be such an uber guru in that case). 3. you need to be able to maintain a strong loyal productive team (you team can be defined by average revenue by staff)
And lastly in any partnership firm, you need to be LOYAL to the firm: log the hours in and keep with the culture of the firm- strategically challenge if it really makes the firm better, but rebels and complaining- not in a partnership structured firm. ^^
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On November 16 2012 21:12 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On November 03 2012 17:51 Advantageous wrote: "If this has been going on then: (i) don't just causally report and give hard figures to your line manager right away, if they are asking for it, then they are preparing their own report. Rather, just say you'll get it to them, then (ii) make your own report much better than you normally do. Even if you're on your last breath, don't skip any details, remember your training as an entry level analyst and make the document with all the bells and whistles, then (iii) forward you report to your line manager while cc'ing your higher ups, with a nice email text into, putting the report attached as your win. Thus, you've followed proper protocol, and you include, as per your 'line manager's' instructions' in the email, but the report is all done by you, and your line manager doesn't have time to take your results and put it into his own reporting and your results can stand as your own results."
5/5 post as your last Mr.MightyAtom! But I have issue understanding the text above. I know... "how could you give the reading 5/5 if you don't fully understand"... I was wondering if you could expand on what you meant by "then (iii) forward you report to your line manager while cc'ing your higher ups, with a nice email text into, putting the report attached as your win.". My understand was to send "the less impressive copy" to "the line manager" and remodel that copy into something "impressive" and send to the higher ups. Hey ^^, no what you don't want to look like is that you are 'playing politics'- basically you won't have time to do to reports, even if one is a revision, if you send the less impressive copy, by the time you send in your impressive one, your line manager will have already out reported you. But by burning the mid-night oil and doing a cc, well the line manager can't actually claim that any of your results are only because of him and it doesn't look to the higher ups that you are deliberately trying to under mind your line manager. You countering him is one thing, but you starting a power struggle and him getting a lesser report when he finds out you've been doing other reports and not cc'ing him on it, will cause a lot of unnecessary interpersonal issues where he may go out of his way to fuck you right away, by saying that you are purposely trying to under mind his position and that you're being unprofessional. Always be cool and professional, the first people who looks like they really are playing politics gets fucked first. Keep it professional and let them shoot themselves in the foot.
Thank You for replying back in your busy schedule!
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On November 16 2012 21:01 MightyAtom wrote:
I'm actually opposite to you, i'm not competitive at all for gaming or playing sports with friends, but it came to grad school or work, or playing at a national level, obviously I'm uber competitive, but I like to always play fair, cause you know when you win, it's a real win, and ultimately at the highest tiers, people who are there aren't the cutthoat competitive guys, they are the guys who really are a notch above the rest. Like a level 25 dota character when everyone else is level 11. lol.
I dont know if you would have any opinion of this, but would you think someone like, lets say Vladimir Putin, got to where he is today because he is a notch above the rest, or because he is good at cutthroat?
interesting blog btw, even for someone who never considered business world
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Thank you for taking time out of your busy schedule to reply back MA! I was wondering about your experiences as a PwC consultant a number of years back, since your previous blog posts have been deleted. How did you break into the firm and industry? Are there any general tips you would recommend for someone who's trying to break in for their co-op terms/internships/after graduation work?
On January 09 2013 10:31 MightyAtom wrote:Show nested quote +On December 09 2012 05:35 Kyokai wrote:Dang MA o.o You never cease to earn my respect. Good luck to your present and future endeavors I want to squeeze by as a consultant or accountant after my undergraduate studies and designation tests. I suppose that means I'm not fit to work towards becoming a force of nature or game changer in the industry. But you're still great inspiration for working hard. Thank you PS. What does it take to become a partner of one of the Big 4? Just curious :D I'm so sorry it took so long to get to this, I'm just coming up for air at this point ^^ I think, it doesn't matter what field you're in- what I meant by being a force of nature, is that passion or ambition you bring to it. And in term of being a partner in a Big 4: so it all depends on your national firm and culture, so it's all different, but to peg it down in general terms: 1. you must get some type of industry recognition via reputation or speaking or white papers as an expert in a certain field (This goes hand in hand with point 2, but I think it will be a combination of the 3 points listed) 2. you need to be able to get paying clients, get more clients, and keep clients (if you can't get clients, it would be exceptional that you make partner, unless you are such a 'guru' of your industry that just by having you in the firm, you increase the prestige of the firm, but you'd have to be such an uber guru in that case). 3. you need to be able to maintain a strong loyal productive team (you team can be defined by average revenue by staff) And lastly in any partnership firm, you need to be LOYAL to the firm: log the hours in and keep with the culture of the firm- strategically challenge if it really makes the firm better, but rebels and complaining- not in a partnership structured firm. ^^
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