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Oh ok. Yea that's not really organized crime. I thought you meant straight up like triad-style organized crime (though I think SK hasn't had much of that since like 1980).
Apple also does tax evasion, price fixing, and occasionally calls in the swat team to protect its IP. Not very different. We just legalized a lot of the bribery stuff in the US, made it legitimate Money=free speech, yay
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On May 11 2014 02:03 riyanme wrote: clearly there's an apple fanatic here~ Ad Hominem 2 gud. For the record, the reason I've been railing against Samsung is because I find the company and its business practices repugnant.
On May 11 2014 01:17 Lonyo wrote:You do realise Korea in the last 40 years has been vastly different from the US in the last 40 years, right? Also, lets look at the US, where there is a lot of "lobbying", aka legalised bribery. Somehow because Korea has actual laws against bribery the SK company is worse than what you would find in the US? Price fixing? Apple were convicted of that. Bribery? Apple doesn't do that, they just "lobby" instead. Totally legit in the US. And their tax avoidance schemes are nice too. We're comparing companies which "grew up" in totally different political, economic and social periods. While doing illegal things might not be a good thing, considering where Korea was in the recent past, and looking at where they are now, there's a reason things are like they are and are different to the US. Until 1980 it was a military dictatorship. Since 1990, the US has gone from $40k to $47k, or around 16% growth in GDP per capita. SK has doubled GDP per capita. At least they have managed to develop their economy, unlike many other seriously corrupt countries. Lobbying in the US is disgusting. I will make no apologies for it, it's an awful system- but up to some point, "Don't blame the players, blame the game" applies here; Apple didn't elect to operate in this flawed system, and for a company as big as they are, which has to answer to its shareholders, lobbying isn't just expected, it's kind of inevitable. That doesn't excuse Apple, but from what I understand, they are not especially big on lobbying, unlike, say, Google.
What separates Apple from Samsung in this sense is that Samsung lies, cheats and steals as part of its standard business practice; its default behavior is criminal behavior. Samsung also perverts all of the country's systems of governance; it buys off the legislative branch and prosecutors from the judiciary, and in the one exceptional case where Samsung's CEO was convicted, he just got pardoned because he'd also bought out the executive branch. By institutionalizing high-level corruption, Samsung is doing big, lasting damage to South Korea's institutions.
A bunch of people wrote: Well, Apple's not an angel either, and because nuance is hard, it's easier for me to say that they're all just as bad See, what you do when you say this, is to give a free pass to the worst offenders (like Samsung) while failing to acknowledge when other companies behave more decently. Apple does some shady shit (like e-book price fixing), but not a whole lot of it; Samsung smells completely rotten.
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On May 12 2014 05:38 Zato-1 wrote:Ad Hominem 2 gud. For the record, the reason I've been railing against Samsung is because I find the company and its business practices repugnant. Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:17 Lonyo wrote:You do realise Korea in the last 40 years has been vastly different from the US in the last 40 years, right? Also, lets look at the US, where there is a lot of "lobbying", aka legalised bribery. Somehow because Korea has actual laws against bribery the SK company is worse than what you would find in the US? Price fixing? Apple were convicted of that. Bribery? Apple doesn't do that, they just "lobby" instead. Totally legit in the US. And their tax avoidance schemes are nice too. We're comparing companies which "grew up" in totally different political, economic and social periods. While doing illegal things might not be a good thing, considering where Korea was in the recent past, and looking at where they are now, there's a reason things are like they are and are different to the US. Until 1980 it was a military dictatorship. Since 1990, the US has gone from $40k to $47k, or around 16% growth in GDP per capita. SK has doubled GDP per capita. At least they have managed to develop their economy, unlike many other seriously corrupt countries. Lobbying in the US is disgusting. I will make no apologies for it, it's an awful system- but up to some point, "Don't blame the players, blame the game" applies here; Apple didn't elect to operate in this flawed system, and for a company as big as they are, which has to answer to its shareholders, lobbying isn't just expected, it's kind of inevitable. That doesn't excuse Apple, but from what I understand, they are not especially big on lobbying, unlike, say, Google. What separates Apple from Samsung in this sense is that Samsung lies, cheats and steals as part of its standard business practice; its default behavior is criminal behavior. Samsung also perverts all of the country's systems of governance; it buys off the legislative branch and prosecutors from the judiciary, and in the one exceptional case where Samsung's CEO was convicted, he just got pardoned because he'd also bought out the executive branch. By institutionalizing high-level corruption, Samsung is doing big, lasting damage to South Korea's institutions. Show nested quote +A bunch of people wrote: Well, Apple's not an angel either, and because nuance is hard, it's easier for me to say that they're all just as bad See, what you do when you say this, is to give a free pass to the worst offenders (like Samsung) while failing to acknowledge when other companies behave more decently. Apple does some shady shit (like e-book price fixing), but not a whole lot of it; Samsung smells completely rotten. Again, you're being dismissed because this is a Samsung vs Apple thread, and you feel the need to post single link posts about Samsung issues.
Just this year alone, Apple was found guilty of price fixing of E-Books, for anti-competitive no poaching agreements (alongside IBM, Google, and a couple other tech giants), and got an executive decision from the President to stop a blockage of product sales because of patent infringement. Among other things that haven't actually gone to court.
And as long as your attitude basically amounts to "Apple is mostly good so I forgive them, but Samsung is scum of the Earth" you're going to be mostly ridiculed.
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And Samsung is nearly 20% of SK's GDP. So yeah, they have a lot of influence and get away with a lot.
You're comparing Apple with oranges. It's different countries with different laws. Saying that Samsung is bad because SK has actual laws against things, while Apple is OK because they operate within the law, but the law is more pathetic makes Samsung worse because hey, breaking local laws. If Apple was in SK and Samsung was in the US, then Apple would be the bad guys, pretty much just for being in SK. Not because they did anything different, just because of where they are.
Samsung is also more than an electronics company. Look at all the non-Apple companies in the US which do shit and get away with it. Then look at Samsung. What Samsung do and what comparable US companies do is no different, but in the US those companies mostly get away with it.
Apple has $170b revenue in electronic goods. Samsung has $260b revenue from construction, insurance, electronics, heavy industry, engineering. So yeah, fingers in more pies, over 5x the number of employees. They do a lot more, there are a lot more people to do bad things. And they have a massive influence over the economy of SK.
There are many many many industries, from agriculture to media to car manufacturers who buy off the legislative branches in the US. So lets compare Samsung to all of those and see who is "criminal". Since Samsung is more than Samsung Electronics.
Maybe you should be complaining about how bad the influence of the US has been on other countries like SK such that they see bribing politicians as acceptable behaviour. Learn from the best!
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On May 12 2014 05:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 05:38 Zato-1 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:03 riyanme wrote: clearly there's an apple fanatic here~ Ad Hominem 2 gud. For the record, the reason I've been railing against Samsung is because I find the company and its business practices repugnant. On May 11 2014 01:17 Lonyo wrote:You do realise Korea in the last 40 years has been vastly different from the US in the last 40 years, right? Also, lets look at the US, where there is a lot of "lobbying", aka legalised bribery. Somehow because Korea has actual laws against bribery the SK company is worse than what you would find in the US? Price fixing? Apple were convicted of that. Bribery? Apple doesn't do that, they just "lobby" instead. Totally legit in the US. And their tax avoidance schemes are nice too. We're comparing companies which "grew up" in totally different political, economic and social periods. While doing illegal things might not be a good thing, considering where Korea was in the recent past, and looking at where they are now, there's a reason things are like they are and are different to the US. Until 1980 it was a military dictatorship. Since 1990, the US has gone from $40k to $47k, or around 16% growth in GDP per capita. SK has doubled GDP per capita. At least they have managed to develop their economy, unlike many other seriously corrupt countries. Lobbying in the US is disgusting. I will make no apologies for it, it's an awful system- but up to some point, "Don't blame the players, blame the game" applies here; Apple didn't elect to operate in this flawed system, and for a company as big as they are, which has to answer to its shareholders, lobbying isn't just expected, it's kind of inevitable. That doesn't excuse Apple, but from what I understand, they are not especially big on lobbying, unlike, say, Google. What separates Apple from Samsung in this sense is that Samsung lies, cheats and steals as part of its standard business practice; its default behavior is criminal behavior. Samsung also perverts all of the country's systems of governance; it buys off the legislative branch and prosecutors from the judiciary, and in the one exceptional case where Samsung's CEO was convicted, he just got pardoned because he'd also bought out the executive branch. By institutionalizing high-level corruption, Samsung is doing big, lasting damage to South Korea's institutions. A bunch of people wrote: Well, Apple's not an angel either, and because nuance is hard, it's easier for me to say that they're all just as bad See, what you do when you say this, is to give a free pass to the worst offenders (like Samsung) while failing to acknowledge when other companies behave more decently. Apple does some shady shit (like e-book price fixing), but not a whole lot of it; Samsung smells completely rotten. Again, you're being dismissed because Dismissed? And here I thought a bunch of people were replying to me! :p
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On May 12 2014 13:38 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 05:52 WolfintheSheep wrote:On May 12 2014 05:38 Zato-1 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:03 riyanme wrote: clearly there's an apple fanatic here~ Ad Hominem 2 gud. For the record, the reason I've been railing against Samsung is because I find the company and its business practices repugnant. On May 11 2014 01:17 Lonyo wrote:You do realise Korea in the last 40 years has been vastly different from the US in the last 40 years, right? Also, lets look at the US, where there is a lot of "lobbying", aka legalised bribery. Somehow because Korea has actual laws against bribery the SK company is worse than what you would find in the US? Price fixing? Apple were convicted of that. Bribery? Apple doesn't do that, they just "lobby" instead. Totally legit in the US. And their tax avoidance schemes are nice too. We're comparing companies which "grew up" in totally different political, economic and social periods. While doing illegal things might not be a good thing, considering where Korea was in the recent past, and looking at where they are now, there's a reason things are like they are and are different to the US. Until 1980 it was a military dictatorship. Since 1990, the US has gone from $40k to $47k, or around 16% growth in GDP per capita. SK has doubled GDP per capita. At least they have managed to develop their economy, unlike many other seriously corrupt countries. Lobbying in the US is disgusting. I will make no apologies for it, it's an awful system- but up to some point, "Don't blame the players, blame the game" applies here; Apple didn't elect to operate in this flawed system, and for a company as big as they are, which has to answer to its shareholders, lobbying isn't just expected, it's kind of inevitable. That doesn't excuse Apple, but from what I understand, they are not especially big on lobbying, unlike, say, Google. What separates Apple from Samsung in this sense is that Samsung lies, cheats and steals as part of its standard business practice; its default behavior is criminal behavior. Samsung also perverts all of the country's systems of governance; it buys off the legislative branch and prosecutors from the judiciary, and in the one exceptional case where Samsung's CEO was convicted, he just got pardoned because he'd also bought out the executive branch. By institutionalizing high-level corruption, Samsung is doing big, lasting damage to South Korea's institutions. A bunch of people wrote: Well, Apple's not an angel either, and because nuance is hard, it's easier for me to say that they're all just as bad See, what you do when you say this, is to give a free pass to the worst offenders (like Samsung) while failing to acknowledge when other companies behave more decently. Apple does some shady shit (like e-book price fixing), but not a whole lot of it; Samsung smells completely rotten. Again, you're being dismissed because Dismissed? And here I thought a bunch of people were replying to me! :p He means your argument will be dismissed, not you
Regardless of how unshady or rotten/shady Samsung is, it seems silly to say that Apple isn't involved in a whole lot of shady shit in comparison. Hasn't Apple been in the headlines constantly in the past few years for one ethical controversy or dubious business practice after another? If you're going to say Samsung is rotten then Apple seems to be rotten to the core as well (heh).
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On May 12 2014 05:38 Zato-1 wrote:Ad Hominem 2 gud. For the record, the reason I've been railing against Samsung is because I find the company and its business practices repugnant. Show nested quote +On May 11 2014 01:17 Lonyo wrote:You do realise Korea in the last 40 years has been vastly different from the US in the last 40 years, right? Also, lets look at the US, where there is a lot of "lobbying", aka legalised bribery. Somehow because Korea has actual laws against bribery the SK company is worse than what you would find in the US? Price fixing? Apple were convicted of that. Bribery? Apple doesn't do that, they just "lobby" instead. Totally legit in the US. And their tax avoidance schemes are nice too. We're comparing companies which "grew up" in totally different political, economic and social periods. While doing illegal things might not be a good thing, considering where Korea was in the recent past, and looking at where they are now, there's a reason things are like they are and are different to the US. Until 1980 it was a military dictatorship. Since 1990, the US has gone from $40k to $47k, or around 16% growth in GDP per capita. SK has doubled GDP per capita. At least they have managed to develop their economy, unlike many other seriously corrupt countries. Lobbying in the US is disgusting. I will make no apologies for it, it's an awful system- but up to some point, "Don't blame the players, blame the game" applies here; Apple didn't elect to operate in this flawed system, and for a company as big as they are, which has to answer to its shareholders, lobbying isn't just expected, it's kind of inevitable. That doesn't excuse Apple, but from what I understand, they are not especially big on lobbying, unlike, say, Google. What separates Apple from Samsung in this sense is that Samsung lies, cheats and steals as part of its standard business practice; its default behavior is criminal behavior. Samsung also perverts all of the country's systems of governance; it buys off the legislative branch and prosecutors from the judiciary, and in the one exceptional case where Samsung's CEO was convicted, he just got pardoned because he'd also bought out the executive branch. By institutionalizing high-level corruption, Samsung is doing big, lasting damage to South Korea's institutions. Show nested quote +A bunch of people wrote: Well, Apple's not an angel either, and because nuance is hard, it's easier for me to say that they're all just as bad See, what you do when you say this, is to give a free pass to the worst offenders (like Samsung) while failing to acknowledge when other companies behave more decently. Apple does some shady shit (like e-book price fixing), but not a whole lot of it; Samsung smells completely rotten.
determining who is the lesser evil... both are said to be "evil" but on the other hand at least samsung help korea's economy alot... samsung group in general... no koreans can deny their influence and contribution...
not back to the topic, both are guilty... apple may be an innovator but samsung may have "did a good job improvising" i dont know the rules and laws, but personally i agree that what apple does is "hampering" the technology advancement... as for apple's stand, i agree to that they have to protect their "rights"
to sum up, ALL are guilty and apple should be "open" for the technology advancement what i see here is MONEY thats driving apple...
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On May 12 2014 18:39 riyanme wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2014 05:38 Zato-1 wrote:On May 11 2014 02:03 riyanme wrote: clearly there's an apple fanatic here~ Ad Hominem 2 gud. For the record, the reason I've been railing against Samsung is because I find the company and its business practices repugnant. On May 11 2014 01:17 Lonyo wrote:You do realise Korea in the last 40 years has been vastly different from the US in the last 40 years, right? Also, lets look at the US, where there is a lot of "lobbying", aka legalised bribery. Somehow because Korea has actual laws against bribery the SK company is worse than what you would find in the US? Price fixing? Apple were convicted of that. Bribery? Apple doesn't do that, they just "lobby" instead. Totally legit in the US. And their tax avoidance schemes are nice too. We're comparing companies which "grew up" in totally different political, economic and social periods. While doing illegal things might not be a good thing, considering where Korea was in the recent past, and looking at where they are now, there's a reason things are like they are and are different to the US. Until 1980 it was a military dictatorship. Since 1990, the US has gone from $40k to $47k, or around 16% growth in GDP per capita. SK has doubled GDP per capita. At least they have managed to develop their economy, unlike many other seriously corrupt countries. Lobbying in the US is disgusting. I will make no apologies for it, it's an awful system- but up to some point, "Don't blame the players, blame the game" applies here; Apple didn't elect to operate in this flawed system, and for a company as big as they are, which has to answer to its shareholders, lobbying isn't just expected, it's kind of inevitable. That doesn't excuse Apple, but from what I understand, they are not especially big on lobbying, unlike, say, Google. What separates Apple from Samsung in this sense is that Samsung lies, cheats and steals as part of its standard business practice; its default behavior is criminal behavior. Samsung also perverts all of the country's systems of governance; it buys off the legislative branch and prosecutors from the judiciary, and in the one exceptional case where Samsung's CEO was convicted, he just got pardoned because he'd also bought out the executive branch. By institutionalizing high-level corruption, Samsung is doing big, lasting damage to South Korea's institutions. A bunch of people wrote: Well, Apple's not an angel either, and because nuance is hard, it's easier for me to say that they're all just as bad See, what you do when you say this, is to give a free pass to the worst offenders (like Samsung) while failing to acknowledge when other companies behave more decently. Apple does some shady shit (like e-book price fixing), but not a whole lot of it; Samsung smells completely rotten. determining who is the lesser evil... both are said to be "evil" but on the other hand at least samsung help korea's economy alot... samsung group in general... no koreans can deny their influence and contribution... not back to the topic, both are guilty... apple may be an innovator but samsung may have "did a good job improvising" i dont know the rules and laws, but personally i agree that what apple does is "hampering" the technology advancement... as for apple's stand, i agree to that they have to protect their "rights" to sum up, ALL are guilty and apple should be "open" for the technology advancement what i see here is MONEY thats driving apple... Money driving companies is fine. Steam did wonders for PC gaming and made Valve immensely rich while doing so, Google provides a bunch of high quality services for free* and makes a ton of money while pretending to have an open source mobile OS, and just about every company around has a profit motive; for some it's just one objective among many, for others it's an all-consuming concern. That's just how capitalism works; serve your fellow man, and you get paid for it.
*Google actually sells you their services in exchange for your information, which they then sell to advertisers.
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http://www.buzzfeed.com/brendanklinkenberg/apples-120-million-patent-victory-against-samsung-overturned#.om7MdMENW Samsung has finally scored a win in its long-running patent battle with Apple.
A federal appeals court on Friday overturned a 2014 verdict that slapped the South Korean tech giant with nearly $120 million in damages for violating Apple’s patents on some iPhone features.
The ruling, from The U.S. Federal Circuit Court of Appeals, essentially finds that the iPhone features at issue in the case were obvious ones that cannot be protected as intellectual property. As a result, Samsung will not be forced to alter any future designs of its devices. ... The ruling also upholds an earlier $158,400 judgement against Apple for infringing one of Samsung’s patents.
Apple declined comment. nice timing
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The Supreme Court agreed Monday to hear Samsung's appeal of a Federal Circuit court ruling in the company's patent infringement dispute with Apple.
At issue in the case: What portion of the profits is a design-patent infringer liable to pay.
Apple accuses the South Korean tech giant of copying patented aspects of the iPhone's design, such as the round-cornered front face and the colorful icon grid.
In December, "Samsung agreed to pay Apple $548m in damages relating to the same three patents at issue in the case that is now being escalated to the Supreme Court," The Financial Times reported. That's an amount that Samsung argues is excessive. The FT adds that Samsung has "reserved the right to reclaim the funds if the verdict is subsequently overturned."
In documents filed to the Supreme Court, Samsung argues that "it is high time, after a 120 year hiatus, that this Court again examine the scope and valuation of design patents."
The court has agreed to consider the following question: Should a design-patent infringer be liable for all profits from a product that includes a patented component, or just the fraction attributable to the patented part?
In this case, both a U.S. district court and the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit have ruled that the infringer is liable for all profits.
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So I assume this means the end of the War at least in the US:
The US supreme court on Tuesday sided with Samsung in its big-money smartphone patent fight with Apple, throwing out an appeals court ruling that said the South Korean company had to pay a $399m penalty to its American rival for copying key iPhone designs.
The justices in their 8-0 ruling sent the case back to the lower court for further proceedings.
The decision gives Samsung another chance to try to get back a big chunk of the money it paid Apple in December following a 2012 jury verdict that it infringed Apple’s iPhone patents and mimicked its distinctive appearance in making the Galaxy and other competing devices.
The court held that a patent violator does not always have to fork over its entire profits from the sales of products using stolen designs, if the designs covered only certain components and not the whole thing.
The ruling followed a ferocious legal battle between the world’s top two smartphone manufacturers that began in 2011 when Apple sued Samsung, asserting that its rival stole its technology and the iPhone’s trademarked appearance. It was one of the most closely watched patent cases to come before the top US court in recent years.
Samsung had been seeking to pare back $399m of $548m it paid Apple in December following a 2012 jury verdict finding that it infringed Cupertino, California-based Apple’s iPhone patents and copied its distinctive appearance.
After a trial in 2012, Apple was awarded nearly $930m in damages. The US court of appeals for the federal circuit in Washington, in May 2015, upheld the patent infringement verdict but said the iPhone’s appearance could not be protected through trademarks. That cut Samsung’s damages back by $382m.
The legal dispute centered on whether the term “article of manufacture” in US patent law should be interpreted as a finished product in its entirety, or merely a component in a complex product.
In court papers, Samsung, Apple and the US government all agreed that the term could mean a component.
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