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On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles? We have retarded celebrities like Jenny McCarthy over here who have managed convince thousands and thousands of parents not to vaccinate their kids.
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On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles?
The tinfoil-hat wearing portion of our populace that thinks vaccinations are the pharmaceutical companies' way of giving the next generation of Americans autism.
Yeah, they exist. If only we could make them see what it was like to live in a world without smallpox or polio vaccines.
EDIT: And the reason its a problem is not everyone can be vaccinated even if they want to be, but they rely on herd immunity to stay safe from disease like Measles. A good example from the article is people on chemotherapy or compromised immune systems. They physically can't be vaccinated, but thankfully because 99% of the population is (or should be) vaccinated, it shouldn't be a problem.
The problem arises when morons decide not to vaccinate their children and get other people sick. If it was just the anti-vaxxer kids that got sick, it would just be karma (for the parents, not for the sick kids), but people can lose their children to diseases we've been able to prevent for decades because other people are anti-science. It's ridiculous.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On January 30 2015 01:31 xDaunt wrote: I love how you guys keep saying Benghazi when I explicitly omit Benghazi. Gotta keep that strawman propped up.
And I don't see Hillary cruising on domestic issues. There are already significant Obama/democrat-fatigue headwinds that she's going to have to deal with. That's only going to worsen if the economy takes a shit in the next 20 months (unfortunately, this is fairly likely). you think the republicans won't use benghazi in the campaign?
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On January 30 2015 02:36 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 01:31 xDaunt wrote: I love how you guys keep saying Benghazi when I explicitly omit Benghazi. Gotta keep that strawman propped up.
And I don't see Hillary cruising on domestic issues. There are already significant Obama/democrat-fatigue headwinds that she's going to have to deal with. That's only going to worsen if the economy takes a shit in the next 20 months (unfortunately, this is fairly likely). you think the republicans won't use benghazi in the campaign? I don't know. The nominee certainly won't because he doesn't have to. Other groups might.
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On January 30 2015 02:09 ZasZ. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles? The tinfoil-hat wearing portion of our populace that thinks vaccinations are the pharmaceutical companies' way of giving the next generation of Americans autism. Yeah, they exist. If only we could make them see what it was like to live in a world without smallpox or polio vaccines. EDIT: And the reason its a problem is not everyone can be vaccinated even if they want to be, but they rely on herd immunity to stay safe from disease like Measles. A good example from the article is people on chemotherapy or compromised immune systems. They physically can't be vaccinated, but thankfully because 99% of the population is (or should be) vaccinated, it shouldn't be a problem. The problem arises when morons decide not to vaccinate their children and get other people sick. If it was just the anti-vaxxer kids that got sick, it would just be karma (for the parents, not for the sick kids), but people can lose their children to diseases we've been able to prevent for decades because other people are anti-science. It's ridiculous.
Ok, that is exceedingly silly. I did not even think of the possibility of someone being opposed to vaccinations. I know that people are crazy and find weird insane reasons for the most silly of beliefs, but come on. Pretty much everyone is vaccinated. Almost all of them don't have any negative effects. On the other hand you have diseases like polio, smallpox, measles. If you have grandparents, they probably remember at least some of them being a problem. So you don't even have to trust any evil corporations ore scientific liberal jew conspiracies. Just your own grandparents. While they might not remember smallpox (They were probably vaccinated against it, but it was probably already mostly beaten before their birth), they almost certainly remember polio as a big concern before vaccinations against it. And now it no longer is.
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On January 30 2015 02:56 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 02:09 ZasZ. wrote:On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles? The tinfoil-hat wearing portion of our populace that thinks vaccinations are the pharmaceutical companies' way of giving the next generation of Americans autism. Yeah, they exist. If only we could make them see what it was like to live in a world without smallpox or polio vaccines. EDIT: And the reason its a problem is not everyone can be vaccinated even if they want to be, but they rely on herd immunity to stay safe from disease like Measles. A good example from the article is people on chemotherapy or compromised immune systems. They physically can't be vaccinated, but thankfully because 99% of the population is (or should be) vaccinated, it shouldn't be a problem. The problem arises when morons decide not to vaccinate their children and get other people sick. If it was just the anti-vaxxer kids that got sick, it would just be karma (for the parents, not for the sick kids), but people can lose their children to diseases we've been able to prevent for decades because other people are anti-science. It's ridiculous. Ok, that is exceedingly silly. I did not even think of the possibility of someone being opposed to vaccinations. I know that people are crazy and find weird insane reasons for the most silly of beliefs, but come on. Pretty much everyone is vaccinated. Almost all of them don't have any negative effects. On the other hand you have diseases like polio, smallpox, measles. If you have grandparents, they probably remember at least some of them being a problem. So you don't even have to trust any evil corporations ore scientific liberal jew conspiracies. Just your own grandparents. While they might not remember smallpox (They were probably vaccinated against it, but it was probably already mostly beaten before their birth), they almost certainly remember polio as a big concern before vaccinations against it. And now it no longer is. Welcome to America. Yes people are that stupid. Bad education + media indoctrination is a powerful combination.
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On January 29 2015 23:10 coverpunch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2015 22:12 farvacola wrote: If Republicans focus on foreign policy as their campaign rallying cry, they will lose the election before the polls even open. Cheers! Lol. If you believed this forum, Republicans have lost every election ever. no, but in presidential elections the last couple rounds they have a nasty way of knocking themselves out before the fight really starts. Watching some middle of the road GOP like Bush get dragged far right by some obscure nobody before he has to back paddle to the center in the actual election is going to be a thing.
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On January 30 2015 03:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 02:56 Simberto wrote:On January 30 2015 02:09 ZasZ. wrote:On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles? The tinfoil-hat wearing portion of our populace that thinks vaccinations are the pharmaceutical companies' way of giving the next generation of Americans autism. Yeah, they exist. If only we could make them see what it was like to live in a world without smallpox or polio vaccines. EDIT: And the reason its a problem is not everyone can be vaccinated even if they want to be, but they rely on herd immunity to stay safe from disease like Measles. A good example from the article is people on chemotherapy or compromised immune systems. They physically can't be vaccinated, but thankfully because 99% of the population is (or should be) vaccinated, it shouldn't be a problem. The problem arises when morons decide not to vaccinate their children and get other people sick. If it was just the anti-vaxxer kids that got sick, it would just be karma (for the parents, not for the sick kids), but people can lose their children to diseases we've been able to prevent for decades because other people are anti-science. It's ridiculous. Ok, that is exceedingly silly. I did not even think of the possibility of someone being opposed to vaccinations. I know that people are crazy and find weird insane reasons for the most silly of beliefs, but come on. Pretty much everyone is vaccinated. Almost all of them don't have any negative effects. On the other hand you have diseases like polio, smallpox, measles. If you have grandparents, they probably remember at least some of them being a problem. So you don't even have to trust any evil corporations ore scientific liberal jew conspiracies. Just your own grandparents. While they might not remember smallpox (They were probably vaccinated against it, but it was probably already mostly beaten before their birth), they almost certainly remember polio as a big concern before vaccinations against it. And now it no longer is. Welcome to America. Yes people are that stupid. Bad education + media indoctrination is a powerful combination.
We got more than enough of these people here in Switzerland.
Its actually a very simple tought process: You don't vaccinate your own child because you heard of random case of illnes/problem due to vaccination. Child doesn't get ill because the large majority of other Childs is vaccinated. My child didn't get sick, Vaccines are scam!
LOGIC! (sigh)
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I feel the huge acceptance for these things also has to do with the US free speech culture that has turned facts into matters of opinion. Like when young earth creationists are actually taken serious enough that people are going to debate them over two hours as if the matter wasn't already settled a long time ago. The fact that there is very little communication between religion and public institutions in the US ironically seems to produce way more radical forms of belief.
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On January 30 2015 03:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 02:56 Simberto wrote:On January 30 2015 02:09 ZasZ. wrote:On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles? The tinfoil-hat wearing portion of our populace that thinks vaccinations are the pharmaceutical companies' way of giving the next generation of Americans autism. Yeah, they exist. If only we could make them see what it was like to live in a world without smallpox or polio vaccines. EDIT: And the reason its a problem is not everyone can be vaccinated even if they want to be, but they rely on herd immunity to stay safe from disease like Measles. A good example from the article is people on chemotherapy or compromised immune systems. They physically can't be vaccinated, but thankfully because 99% of the population is (or should be) vaccinated, it shouldn't be a problem. The problem arises when morons decide not to vaccinate their children and get other people sick. If it was just the anti-vaxxer kids that got sick, it would just be karma (for the parents, not for the sick kids), but people can lose their children to diseases we've been able to prevent for decades because other people are anti-science. It's ridiculous. Ok, that is exceedingly silly. I did not even think of the possibility of someone being opposed to vaccinations. I know that people are crazy and find weird insane reasons for the most silly of beliefs, but come on. Pretty much everyone is vaccinated. Almost all of them don't have any negative effects. On the other hand you have diseases like polio, smallpox, measles. If you have grandparents, they probably remember at least some of them being a problem. So you don't even have to trust any evil corporations ore scientific liberal jew conspiracies. Just your own grandparents. While they might not remember smallpox (They were probably vaccinated against it, but it was probably already mostly beaten before their birth), they almost certainly remember polio as a big concern before vaccinations against it. And now it no longer is. Welcome to America. Yes people are that stupid. Bad education + media indoctrination is a powerful combination. A lot of the anti-vaccine crowd is well educated. It's healthy skepticism mixed with dis-trust and lifestyle choices. Doctors say there's no risk, people figure out that vaccines are not 100% risk-less and then let fear of the unknown dictate that vaccines should be avoided. It's pretty similar to the anti-GMO logic (welcome to Europe...).
The vast majority of the population is vaccinated. But with the way vaccines work only a small part of the population needs to avoid vaccination for a problem to arise. It's particularly problematic because people who avoid vaccines tend to cluster around each other, for whatever reason.
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On January 30 2015 03:52 Nyxisto wrote: I feel the huge acceptance for these things also has to do with the US free speech culture that has turned facts into matters of opinion. Like when young earth creationists are actually taken serious enough that people are going to debate them over two hours as if the matter wasn't already settled a long time ago. The fact that there is very little communication between religion and public institutions in the US ironically seems to produce way more radical forms of belief.
yeah. I made the same observation. free speech is great and the basis for a free society and a liberal democracy, but with like all things - if you push it too far you end up with something awful and stupid.
//edit: on the other hand it's not free speech in particular that's the problem. it's people abusing free speech to further their cause based on faux() facts and stupid opinions.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
dont see how it's a free speech issue. it's rather distrust/alienation from science and experts at large. a lot of 'independent' research and conspiracies.
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On January 30 2015 04:21 oneofthem wrote: dont see how it's a free speech issue. it's rather distrust/alienation from science and experts at large. a lot of 'independent' research and conspiracies.
"it's my right to say stupid things, even if you don't like it/think it's correct/agree with it".
that's what makes it, at least to some extent, a free speech issue. if people abuse free speech it's a free speech issue, no?
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The issue is that at some point it starts to translate into political action. These people suddenly have their own "universities and schools" as you already pointed out and with enough money and authority behind it people will actually start believing stuff that makes absolutely no sense.
Some of the strongly evangelical states and municipalities in the US almost seem cult like and it seems like these are also the regions where most of the anti-science stuff comes from.
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Still less of a free speech issue and more of an education issue. People should be allowed to say insane crap. However, people should also be taught to realize that insane crap is insane crap. If the latter happens, the former is not a problem. (Note: This does not even mean teaching them "This is correct, this is wrong". It means teaching everyone the necessary tools to not be fooled by utter nonsense that sounds slightly plausible.
Methodology is key here. How to judge different sorts of evidence for plausibility. How to analyze data. Stuff like that. Which is also why at least a modicum of education should be mandatory for every child in a country, and why parents homeschooling children is not a good idea.
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On January 30 2015 03:01 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 02:56 Simberto wrote:On January 30 2015 02:09 ZasZ. wrote:On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles? The tinfoil-hat wearing portion of our populace that thinks vaccinations are the pharmaceutical companies' way of giving the next generation of Americans autism. Yeah, they exist. If only we could make them see what it was like to live in a world without smallpox or polio vaccines. EDIT: And the reason its a problem is not everyone can be vaccinated even if they want to be, but they rely on herd immunity to stay safe from disease like Measles. A good example from the article is people on chemotherapy or compromised immune systems. They physically can't be vaccinated, but thankfully because 99% of the population is (or should be) vaccinated, it shouldn't be a problem. The problem arises when morons decide not to vaccinate their children and get other people sick. If it was just the anti-vaxxer kids that got sick, it would just be karma (for the parents, not for the sick kids), but people can lose their children to diseases we've been able to prevent for decades because other people are anti-science. It's ridiculous. Ok, that is exceedingly silly. I did not even think of the possibility of someone being opposed to vaccinations. I know that people are crazy and find weird insane reasons for the most silly of beliefs, but come on. Pretty much everyone is vaccinated. Almost all of them don't have any negative effects. On the other hand you have diseases like polio, smallpox, measles. If you have grandparents, they probably remember at least some of them being a problem. So you don't even have to trust any evil corporations ore scientific liberal jew conspiracies. Just your own grandparents. While they might not remember smallpox (They were probably vaccinated against it, but it was probably already mostly beaten before their birth), they almost certainly remember polio as a big concern before vaccinations against it. And now it no longer is. Welcome to America. Yes people are that stupid. Bad education + media indoctrination is a powerful combination. It's not an American problem. I'm sure you're familiar with the 'bible belt' in NL where there are people who don't get vaccinated because of religion.
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Congress hasn’t even been in session a month and a raft of Republicans are already being threatened with primaries in 2016.
The reasons run the gamut, from backing John Boehner for speaker to objecting to an anti-abortion bill. One congressman is under fire for failing to amass clout that would help his district on a key issue. It’s the latest proof that divisions within the GOP are very much alive, despite the triumph of the establishment GOP wing over the tea party in last year’s midterms.
Since the new Congress kicked off Jan. 6, more than a half-dozen Republican congressmen and senators have drawn potential challengers from the right – an unusual level of intra-party electoral strife this early in the campaign season. Many of the incumbents have reputations as solid conservatives – lawmakers like North Carolina Rep. Renee Ellmers, who was elected on the tea party wave of 2010, and Kansas Sen. Jerry Moran, who oversaw the party’s Senate campaign arm in the midterms — but have nonetheless drawn the ire of tea party adversaries.
A few of the potential challengers are mulling repeat bids after losing in 2014, betting that growing voter discontent with incumbents will put them over the top in two years. Many of the primary campaigns are almost certain to fizzle once the reality of what it takes to dethrone a sitting lawmaker sets in. Regardless, it’s a rude awakening for a Republican establishment that hoped it had put insurgent challenges to rest.
“There is an unprecedented level of disquiet,” said Daniel Horowitz, who has worked as a political strategist for tea party groups. “There’s a sense that the Republicans in Washington don’t share the beliefs of the conservative platform, or don’t fight for them.”
Democrats have comparatively fewer divisions, despite being in the minority in both chambers of Congress. In party circles, there’s little talk about primaries.
Source
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On January 30 2015 04:24 Doublemint wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2015 04:21 oneofthem wrote: dont see how it's a free speech issue. it's rather distrust/alienation from science and experts at large. a lot of 'independent' research and conspiracies. "it's my right to say stupid things, even if you don't like it/think it's correct/agree with it". that's what makes it, at least to some extent, a free speech issue. if people abuse free speech it's a free speech issue, no? what? this is not about speech but about beliefs and behavior.
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On January 30 2015 01:59 Simberto wrote: How is that a big problem?
Isn't pretty much everyone vaccinated against Measles?
Americans are a special kind of stupid.
Our culture is extremely anti-intellectual and we have (relatively) huge parts of our population that are anti-science, including anti-climate change science (~50%), anti-evolution (~50%), anti-vaccination (~5-10%), anti-nutritional science ("fad diets", pretty big percentage of the population) etc. Of course, this is despite the fact that each of these issues has a pretty resounding scientific consensus.
A lot of the anti-vaccine crowd is well educated. It's healthy skepticism mixed with dis-trust and lifestyle choices. Doctors say there's no risk, people figure out that vaccines are not 100% risk-less and then let fear of the unknown dictate that vaccines should be avoided. It's pretty similar to the anti-GMO logic (welcome to Europe...).
The vast majority of the population is vaccinated. But with the way vaccines work only a small part of the population needs to avoid vaccination for a problem to arise. It's particularly problematic because people who avoid vaccines tend to cluster around each other, for whatever reason.
Education doesn't always mean intelligence (although it is a good indicator) and the skepticism of vaccines isn't "healthy". It's paranoid and absurd.
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Maybe freedom of speech wasn't the right term, but the culture behind the American interpretation of it. Without any form of compulsory education or curriculum you'll end up with a lot of kids growing up in an environment where people can teach them nonsense all day and when they're adults they'll do the same.
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