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On December 18 2012 15:30 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 14:44 althaz wrote:SHA-2 has an output size of 512 bits, so finding a collision would take O(2^256) time. Given there are no clever attacks on the algorithm itself (currently none are known for the SHA-2 hash family) this is what it takes to break the algorithm. To get a feeling for what 2^256 actually means: currently it is believed that the number of atoms in the (entire!!!) universe is roughly 10^80 which is roughly 2^266. Assuming 32 byte input (which is reasonable for your case - 20 bytes salt + 12 bytes password) my machine takes ~0,22s (~2^-2s) for 65536 (=2^16) computations. So 2^256 computations would be done in 2^240 * 2^16 computations which would take 2^240 * 2^-2 = 2^238 ~ 10^72s ~ 3,17 * 10^64 years Even calling this millions of years is ridiculous. And it doesn't get much better with the fastest hardware on the planet computing thousands of hashes in parallel. No human technology will be able to crunch this number into something acceptable. LinkThis assumes a dumb brute-force attack which you are almost never going to use (or at least you shouldn't). There are more intelligent (and orders of magnitude faster by using parrallel computing hardware, eg: GPUs) methods of brute force, but it's far more likely that you are going to use dictionary attacks which means 90%+ of the passwords will be cracked within a few days (or possibly within a few hours depending on the encryption used). SHA hashes are designed for real-time encryption (and they not realistically crackable when used for that purpose, although weaknesses have been discovered in SHA-2, though they haven't been exploited AFAIK in the real world). If they are at rest they are incredibly vulnerable to intelligent attacks (as you point out dumb attacks don't work). That's why things like the incredibly slow bcrypt are becoming more and more popular. What might have taken 16 hours could take them 16 years if you used bcrypt to encrypt your passwords. You can achieive a similar result with progressive passes (tens of thousands) of SHA-2, but because of the way bcrypt works vs the way most hashing functions work, bcrypt may be inherently more resistant to attacks (the algorithms are better understood and have no discovered weaknesses). EDIT: Also, the math above seems old, 220ms for only 65536 guesses is mad slow for SHA (but the same amount of guesses might take 10 minutes or more with bcrypt). EDIT2: It's probably also worth mentioning scrypt (google it), which has a lot in common with bcrypt, but is even more impossible to crack (and once it is better studied will likely become the default resting password encryption). Best encryption is first closing the gaps in the system. Something like remote SQL code execution by random user should not be happening in this day and age. Pity to see S2 take such a huge blow, seeing how I've been supporting them for all those years. They're not the first and won't be last though, like it was mentioned previously a lot of other companies had problems with hackers which were much more severe (more crucial data/valuable goods stolen). The word encryption is being repeatedly used here and it should be noted that these stored passwords have nothing to do with encryption. They are hashes.
Encryption is the transformation of information into unintelligible gibberish with the use of a key. The same key can then be used to turn that gibberish back into useful information. It's useful if you're sending information out into the wild and you don't want it to be read except by intended individuals (an encryption key is agreed upon during a handshake and all subsequent communication is encrypted and decrypted using the key). Digital games often use encryption to allow preloading without accessing by withholding the key until launch.
Encryption is not used for storing sensitive data that is never intended to be read. If you encrypted passwords, you'd have to store both the encrypted data and the encryption key in order to check the encryption against the password when necessary. That's no good, whoever breaks into your server finds the encrypted data and the key and instantly has all the passwords.
Hashing is not encryption. Hashing takes the data you give it and mutilates it beyond all recognition into something that is not guaranteed to be a result unique to the input and therefore cannot be simply reversed. Even if you have both the hash output and the salt you cannot pull the original input out of your hashing function like you'd be able to with an encryption function. This is great for storing passwords because the effective methods of finding the input for a well-executed hash depend on the user having a weak password.
But the main point is hash and encrypt are not interchangeable verbs.
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On December 18 2012 05:36 urashimakt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 23:53 Martijn wrote:On December 17 2012 23:47 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 23:21 HellRoxYa wrote:On December 17 2012 23:10 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote: He verified it by posting his name on the Main S2 caster's Twitter (he had the same passwrod for his twitter and Hon I guess) I have a hard time believing that S2 doesn't hash passwords. link? It's in the OP. Edit: And this is hilarious. Except I was planning to play some and apparently S2 aren't very good at what they do (surprise surprise) so their servers are shut down for now. Was already deleted when i tried to check back when i posted. guess i was too slow. anyway, no hashing would be an unbelievable failure. On December 17 2012 23:46 Martijn wrote:On December 17 2012 23:10 zeru wrote:On December 17 2012 22:43 dapierow wrote: He verified it by posting his name on the Main S2 caster's Twitter (he had the same passwrod for his twitter and Hon I guess) I have a hard time believing that S2 doesn't hash passwords. link? Because there's surely no databases that allow you to do reverse md5 look-ups :/ Kidding me? why would anyone in the world still use md5? Swing and a miss on the point made there. Point was, for every hash there's a reverse look-up table. Apparently they went to the trouble of salts and that wasn't enough either. So arguing about unencrypted vs encrypted password has little to no relevance seeming as shown encrypted passwords can be broken all the same, it's just a matter of time. What you've just said is that salts were no help against lookup tables. Salting renders lookup tables ineffective by their very nature. If S2 were properly salting and applying a relatively strong hash this guy would still be working on the first password. zeru is seems to know what he's talking about, so try not to be a jerk about it. S2 obviously messed up big time in basic password security. And hashing is not the same as encrypting.
Considering the low amount of accounts that have actually gotten hacked (3 so far that I actually know of) it wouldn't surprise me at all if it is taking him a few days getting individual passwords. Not to mention we have no idea how long he has had access to the database to begin with.. Sure, they could've made it even harder. Sure, there's no way for S2 to come out looking ok from all this. But if you read through this thread the common perception is that they didn't encrypt the passwords at all and they're being accused of way more gross negligence than they're actually guilty of.
Obviously it wasn't secure, but it's not fair to sell S2 short. It doesn't seem to be any worse than what happened to Sony or Riot, if anything they seemed to have done a slightly better job.
Edit: mind you the 3 accounts are the only ones I've seen compromised. Obviously the guy claims to have many more, but I'm not sure we should take his claims at face value to begin with.
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SHA hashes are designed for real-time encryption (and they not realistically crackable when used for that purpose, although weaknesses have been discovered in SHA-2, though they haven't been exploited AFAIK in the real world).
If they are at rest they are incredibly vulnerable to intelligent attacks (as you point out dumb attacks don't work). That's why things like the incredibly slow bcrypt are becoming more and more popular. What might have taken 16 hours could take them 16 years if you used bcrypt to encrypt your passwords.
You can achieive a similar result with progressive passes (tens of thousands) of SHA-2, but because of the way bcrypt works vs the way most hashing functions work, bcrypt may be inherently more resistant to attacks (the algorithms are better understood and have no discovered weaknesses). Yeah you're supposed to use thousands (or millions lol) of iterations if you wanted to use SHA-2 for this.
Using just 1 iteration is terrible - this is why PBKDF2 (the standard you would use SHA-2 with) required minimum 1000 iterations and that was like 10+ years ago. The number of actual iterations should be scaled with computing power, with any performance requirements, and what the user can tolerate. If performance isn't particularly important, or if the system is really powerful, and the key is really important, can use 10^7 iterations or more.
PBKDF2-HMAC-SHA-* weakness, in comparison to bcrypt/scrypt, is that it requires very little memory, making parallel attacks cheap if done in hardware. Doesn't mean SHA-2 in conjunction with PBKDF2 is bad; in fact I'd argue that it's fine.
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On December 18 2012 11:49 semantics wrote:Show nested quote +On December 18 2012 08:54 Alur wrote:On December 18 2012 00:36 AntiGrav1ty wrote:On December 18 2012 00:15 inermis wrote: well if it is good, and company that made it wants to make more money out of it, why not advertise it ALOT more, throw some 100k usd tournament, then another one, where money is, progamers show up and progamers wannabe's, if it really is good, they could pull that off. Well they did exactly that with Hontour and Dreamhon. Both are very big tournaments with a decent prize pool and good coverage. The player numbers and viewer numbers have gone up a lot in the last couple of months. Honcast has about 6-12k viewers 3 times a week depending on the matchup and player numbers at peak times have gone up to 100k players online at the same time from about 40k a year ago. S2 is expanding and they are doing the right things. The problem is just that everything came too late. LoL had taken off already and Dota2 was getting big with the international before that as well. Catching up now is pretty much impossible because even with prize money and advertisement it's gonna be hard to entice players to switch games at this point. Dota and especially LoL are just too far ahead now. Just a comment on your statement about player numbers. A couple of months ago, S2 started counting the Garena HoN players (south east asia) towards the total amount of players, resulting in a drastic burst from 40k'ish to 100k'ish players. This however does not reflect the status of the game with it's western audience. While the Int client might had 40k players a year ago, that number looks more like 30k currently, probably helped by the rise of DotA 2 ( Graph of concurrent DotA2 players) and S2's security/ddos issues. ? Same data with that dota 2 graph i don't get why to make that point all it does is point out dota2 has twice as many players pretty much vs hon, though out the day both go up and down, dota2 pretty consistently double of what hon is, which is pretty easy to attribute by brand recognition of dota plus the marketing by steam. I'm merely trying to shine some light on why HoNs popularity is declining in the west, my point being that there is some form of correlation between the player activity fluctuations in the two games. The fact that dota has more players is immaterial to what I'm trying to say.
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http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?469777-Security-Issues-Response
On Sunday afternoon we became aware of a Heroes of Newerth password security breach. We immediately took steps to limit the risk to our players by directly advising the community to change the passwords for any linked accounts.
We’ve been working around the clock with our internal expert security staff to analyze what happened, and it is our mission to be completely transparent. We know that only passwords were stolen. No credit card or billing information was compromised, as we do not store this information. The security breach occurred when a third-party software that interacts with our account database was hacked. Contrary to some outside reports, the game client was not hacked.
We took immediate action to eliminate any future password storage issues by removing the third-parties ability to access sensitive information.
Additionally, while the game was down we upgraded all security systems. The game is back up and all HoN accounts will be prompted to create a new password. All passwords will be expired upon next login. However, we do want to reiterate that those who used the same password for HoN to access anything else to change their passwords.
We take security very seriously. Players must know their sensitive information is secure and S2 will ensure this is the case, no matter the effort or cost.
If you have any questions do not hesitate to ask our Community Manager @s2xanderK.
Sincerely, Marc "Maliken" DeForest
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Who lets another company have full access to their user database? oO
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On December 19 2012 21:09 LaNague wrote: Who lets another company have full access to their user database? oO
A third party application could mean anything from their mailserver, webserver, to their hosting provider, to their billing system. Not necessarily another company.
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This is a riot/Valve plot.
Srsly, I am sad, because I really love hon, but they never managed fixing their community. Also they are a very small company, which means it is easier to attack them, I think.
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Eh having issue with passwords is not as horrible as having issues with storing CC data, probably a smart approach by them not storing that data, else people would have problems trusting them, ofc people still trust valve and they had security issues with CC data.
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On December 17 2012 22:47 dapierow wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2012 22:46 Monsen wrote: S2, despite having the best (imo. obviously) Moba game out there have been complete retards when it comes to marketing and community management for the last 4 (5?) years. There's a reason why it's by far the weakest of "the big 3". So yeah, not surprised. I know. I feel HoN is amazing compared to Dota 2 and LoL as well. The fact that they made the game cost money upon release just ruined all the hard work they did, can't blame them for that but considering gamers have a free choice of a similar game especially in areas like asia you cant blame the players for going to inferior games.
Have to agree here: Its astonishing how a game that is in so many ways better than the competition does much worse, has fewer/smaller tournaments, less players and a much smaller community that produces way less content than LoL and Dota2.
The game is faster, more complex, more responsive and more innovative than the other two mobas, still they get their ass handed to them by the other two.
This latest incident just shows that they are simply doing certain things wrong, even though the do a whole lot of other things correctly, but in the MOBA-sector and generally with games, it's not just about the game, but marketing as well and this incident surely didn't do any good in that department.
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